Long Range Missiles, a question of scale?

[obsessed]

If one goes by very useful robotech technical files details for missiles, etc. http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/robotech.html then a tomahawk or spartan could cary a load of 24 anti air missiles (stinger II) in place of the anti-mecha load out.

No reason a spartan cannot be loaded with a mix of anto air and anti ground missile load. Nearly the same size.

[Seto Kaiba]

If one goes by very useful robotech technical files details for missiles, etc. http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/robotech.html [...]

Eech... "very useful" is probably more than a bit of a stretch, unless you care nothing for getting accurate information that actually lines up with the Robotech setting and animation. The vast majority of the information presented there is not from any Robotech or OSM source, and a lot of the missiles have been misidentified. Some are not from Robotech at all.

then a tomahawk or spartan could cary a load of 24 anti air missiles (stinger II) in place of the anti-mecha load out.

No reason a spartan cannot be loaded with a mix of anto air and anti ground missile load. Nearly the same size.

Hm... it'd be a matter of modifying the launchers to accept the smaller missiles, since the Erlikon missiles used in the missile option pack are a good deal smaller than the Bifors short-range rockets in the shoulder launchers. It could be done, though it'd feel a little unnecessary next to the more capable Phalanx surface defense robots and Armored Valkyries. The Tomahawk and Spartan are land warfare units.

[eliakon]

I know this isn"t the post for bullets.

Indeed... and therefore I'll reply via PM to that instead.

To sum it up neatly and briefly, my OSM-derived approach to bullets is pretty much the same as missiles... very few different types, but a very broad scale of potency.

Are bullets actually covered in any of the official Robotech materials? (Not the Macross franchise stuff, the official Robotech stuff?) and if so where? (I am actually curious)

[Seto Kaiba]

Are bullets actually covered in any of the official Robotech materials? (Not the Macross franchise stuff, the official Robotech stuff?) and if so where? (I am actually curious)

I'm afraid not.

There's virtually no detail about any of the weaponry used in Robotech in any official source which is specific to Robotech. They put gun calibers and the rough diameters of some rockets and missiles in their respective mecha's stats sheets on the Infopedia, but that's about the extent of it.

The information in the RPG for missiles, rockets, guns, etc. is almost entirely drawn from the animation's original (Japanese) source material, often with minor embellishments or errors by the Palladium writers.

[mech798]

Don't know if it's been mnetioned but there's one reason by the Armor style missiles are out of style-- speed of light limitatoins. Sure they are powerful, but they aren't FTL or even C and that means that the enemy sitting a long way away is goign to be able to shoot at you, and them, a lot before they impact. they're also useless against smaller mecha which means that they have only one purpose compared to the more flexible missile launchers you see on the most of the zentradi ships.

[Seto Kaiba]

Don't know if it's been mnetioned but there's one reason by the Armor style missiles are out of style-- speed of light limitatoins. Sure they are powerful, but they aren't FTL or even C and that means that the enemy sitting a long way away is goign to be able to shoot at you, and them, a lot before they impact.

Eh... I don't think they're as "out of style" as you think. The Robotech 'verse still had ships that were relying on huge missile launchers as their primary offensive weapon in 2043. The Shimakaze class's original main armament, from the time of its introduction circa 2043 to its shadow tech retrofit, was just a quartet of anti-warship missile launchers fed by a massive magazine that took up most of the bow.

If you're shooting them from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away, you're probably doing it wrong... even if the missiles are TERRIFYINGLY fast (per OSM, anyway). Tens of thousands? No big deal, they're moving so fast that the probability of intercept is quite low, and no ship in Robotech has what you'd call an effective point defense system.

they're also useless against smaller mecha which means that they have only one purpose compared to the more flexible missile launchers you see on the most of the zentradi ships.

This is one area where the Robotech RPG really does the human ships a massive disservice... they short-sold their weapons SO MUCH both by downgrading their stats and forcing them into the same basic missile table as everything else. It really takes away from the fact that the warhead on the missiles the ARMD fires are ersatz-nuclear weapons of terrifying scale. Look to the animation, and glancing hits and proximity detonations from those missiles are disabling or destroying the 2km-long Zentradi battleships with just a handful of hits. Look to the Robotech comics, and these warheads are powerful enough that JUST ONE was shown to be sufficient to destroy a Grand Cannon and the base underneath... and one was also believed sufficient to destroy all of Macross Island and the SDF-1 (and would have, had Roy not intercepted it during reentry).

[eliakon]

So up them to Cruise Missiles. You can even give them the cool nuclear warheads from the Rifts books (the ones that have multi-mile blast radi)....though the various cruise missiles in AU and PW both have massive warheads that could be used as well....
Just a thought.

[Tor]

Interesting bit I noticed about LRMs in Phase World, it says a runner ship can store 36 in the hold and that they weigh a total of a ton, so in Rifts LRMs weight 1/36 of a ton exactly. Robotech so heavy!

[eliakon]

Interesting bit I noticed about LRMs in Phase World, it says a runner ship can store 36 in the hold and that they weigh a total of a ton, so in Rifts LRMs weight 1/36 of a ton exactly. Robotech so heavy!

Or at least those LRMs are 36 to the ton.....like many things in the game the stats are all over the place.

[Seto Kaiba]

Interesting bit I noticed about LRMs in Phase World, it says a runner ship can store 36 in the hold and that they weigh a total of a ton, so in Rifts LRMs weight 1/36 of a ton exactly. Robotech so heavy!

lolwut?

The missile weights in the Palladium RPG have always been comically low, but that takes the cake... a long-range missile that weighs 55 1/2 pounds? Does that even have a warhead? I mean, a modern long-range air-to-air missile is over 1,000 pounds, and the Macross equivalent (the "Longbow" Arrow) still weighs about 330 pounds, and what the RPG mistakenly thinks is a Macross LRM is almost 2,400 pounds (tho THAT'S an anti-warship ultra-long range missile with a variable-yield tactical reaction warhead).

Edit: On the plus side, the bit of digging I had to do to unearth the Macross numbers had me stumble upon a figure that expresses a rough indication of how much high-explosives had improved thanks to OTM. Orders of magnitude... it's a beautiful thing.

Edit 2: I have posted an updated list of missile weights and dimensions for the VF-1 Valkyrie in the Missile Weights thread, incorporating all US/NATO bombs and missiles the VF-1 is said to be compatible with, as well as the UN Forces-issue OTM-derived munitions.

[Tor]

The missile weights in the Palladium RPG have always been comically low

Was not aware there were any missiles native to the Palladium world

a long-range missile that weighs 55 1/2 pounds? Does that even have a warhead? I mean, a modern long-range air-to-air missile is over 1,000 pounds, and the Macross equivalent (the "Longbow" Arrow) still weighs about 330 pounds, and what the RPG mistakenly thinks is a Macross LRM is almost 2,400 pounds (tho THAT'S an anti-warship ultra-long range missile with a variable-yield tactical reaction warhead).

All I can figure is since Three Galaxies has gravitonic technology, perhaps it is possible that the missiles in circulation there have some gravi-tech built into them to lessen their weights. So perhaps I should not assume that the weight of LRMs carried by Runner ships in Three Galaxies is necessarily going to be the LRM weight on Rifts Earth.

[Seto Kaiba]

The missile weights in the Palladium RPG have always been comically low

Was not aware there were any missiles native to the Palladium world

Not sure if you'd call them "native to the Palladium world", but there are quite a few entries there on the generic missile table that don't exist or simply aren't used in the settings of Robotech or Macross II: Lovers Again. There's a lot wrong with weights and measures in the Palladium Robotech and Macross II RPGs... not the least of which being the "all missiles are created equal" thing.

All I can figure is since Three Galaxies has gravitonic technology, perhaps it is possible that the missiles in circulation there have some gravi-tech built into them to lessen their weights. So perhaps I should not assume that the weight of LRMs carried by Runner ships in Three Galaxies is necessarily going to be the LRM weight on Rifts Earth.

Well, gravity control tech is something that exists in Macross and Robotech too... but not on a scale small enough to fit into combat mecha, let alone missiles.

The weights given for missiles are unfeasibly low across most missile types...

[ShadowLogan]

Not sure if you'd call them "native to the Palladium world", but there are quite a few entries there on the generic missile table that don't exist or simply aren't used in the settings of Robotech or Macross II: Lovers Again. There's a lot wrong with weights and measures in the Palladium Robotech and Macross II RPGs... not the least of which being the "all missiles are created equal" thing.

Palladium Books has a fantasy RPG line titled "Palladium Fantasy RPG", which could be shortened to "Palladium RPG" I guess. In the fantasy line, the world is also called "Palladium" IIRC. It's probably one of the few lines that you are not going to come across the standard missile table (at least in my experience).

[Seto Kaiba]

Palladium Books has a fantasy RPG line titled "Palladium Fantasy RPG", which could be shortened to "Palladium RPG" I guess. In the fantasy line, the world is also called "Palladium" IIRC. It's probably one of the few lines that you are not going to come across the standard missile table (at least in my experience).

Hm... yeah, I see how that could get confusing, when Robotech fans tend to also refer to the licensed RPG as just "the Palladium RPG".

[ShadowLogan]

Palladium Books has a fantasy RPG line titled "Palladium Fantasy RPG", which could be shortened to "Palladium RPG" I guess. In the fantasy line, the world is also called "Palladium" IIRC. It's probably one of the few lines that you are not going to come across the standard missile table (at least in my experience).

Hm... yeah, I see how that could get confusing, when Robotech fans tend to also refer to the licensed RPG as just "the Palladium RPG".

I don't think I've ever heard it referred to that way.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't think I've ever heard it referred to that way.

Really? I think the whole time I was on Robotech.com, I never heard it referred to any OTHER way...

[eliakon]

I don't think I've ever heard it referred to that way.

Really? I think the whole time I was on Robotech.com, I never heard it referred to any OTHER way...

Welcome to the wonderful world of Outsider/Insider. To the outsider (A fan of Robotech who is looking at the game as an add on to their fandom) its all "Palladium". To a Palladium gamer, who looks at Robotech as one line of many, Palladium is the fantasy line....same game different world views.

[Tor]

gravity control tech is something that exists in Macross and Robotech too... but not on a scale small enough to fit into combat mecha, let alone missiles.

The weights given for missiles are unfeasibly low across most missile types...

Yeah seems below Phase-World standards, PW has anti-grav jet-packs that even humans can wear, much less mecha.

I doubt they would bother with it for mini missiles, or even short or medium, but I could see how they would splurge on equipping a weight-reducer to an LRM.

Robotech fans tend to also refer to the licensed RPG as just "the Palladium RPG".

Unless there is some non-Palladium RPG made for Robotech I would think -the RPG- would suffice.

[Seto Kaiba]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Outsider/Insider. To the outsider (A fan of Robotech who is looking at the game as an add on to their fandom) its all "Palladium". To a Palladium gamer, who looks at Robotech as one line of many, Palladium is the fantasy line....same game different world views.

I'm very much the "Outsider", having never had much interest in any of Palladium's games lines outside of Macross II and Robotech.

Yeah seems below Phase-World standards, PW has anti-grav jet-packs that even humans can wear, much less mecha.

Yeah, that's a little more far-future than either setting really goes... the gravity control technology of the Robotech universe is very large, and the smallest applications seen seem to belong to alien species with technology much more advanced than humanity's. The Masters had a plethora of anti-gravity hover vehicles, while humanity's hovercraft still relied on thrust to stay aloft, and the Haydonites are likely the smallest example of grav-effect technology (they seem to use it to get around on a personal basis, as a collection of limbless robot torsos).

The Macross universes have miniaturized gravity control technology... but only as part of a larger, integrated systems that manipulate super dimension space (mostly power generation technology and in dimension weapons).

[ShadowLogan]

I don't think I've ever heard it referred to that way.

Really? I think the whole time I was on Robotech.com, I never heard it referred to any OTHER way...

there are two ways to read it though depending on context and POV:
THE Palladium RPG (as in the specific line)
or
the Palladium RPG (as in the publisher)

From my POV and context it would be read as the second option. Tor took your earlier comment as the first.