Is it time the CS finally loses one?

[HWalsh]

What would be losing one?

Do they need to lose an engagement? multiple engagements?
Do they need to lose a city? A state? Chi-Town?

Be forced to retreat and concede territory due to the results of engaging with the enemy.

IE. The CS attacks Lazlo, loses a large number of troops, decides it isn't worth it to continue. Backs off and/or is forced to sign a peace treaty or nonaggression pact against their desires.

[Sureshot]

It's pretty standard to mothball outdated military equipment when the new equipment is issued.

I'm not disputing that. Usually outdated equipment unless it's still somehow useful. Get sold to allies to make a profit. Recycled to be used for something else. Or simply destroyed. I doubt the US still has the same number of Sherman tanks in storage it had at the end of World War II. It just seems silly to me at least that 3 million or so suits of power armor just rot away in storage.

I'm not sure how well ceramics melt, and the CS doesn't seem to have a shortage of whatever materials MDC armor is made out of, so I don't know that they need to recycle.

I'm sure the CS has ways of recycling anything and everything they have imo. It makes no logical sense for them not to imo. Most nations that can build and field armies like the CS and Northern Gun seems to have unlimited amounts of access to MDC material. Then again it's all over the place in ruined cities. Easy to get to dangerous to acquire.

Also, in case of emergency, storing the SAMAS means that they could just issue it to Grunts if the need to, like if there's ever a serious attack on Chi-Town or another CS city, and things get really serious.

Actually the Cs Grunt can't pilot a Samas. They get Robot Combat: Basic as a OCC skill. They need to take Pilot Robots and Power armor as a occ related skill. Even then it's not guaranteed that they will. The average citizen and soldier are taught from a early age not to think or question too much. Some CS Grunts might think far ahead and learn to pilot a Samas. Most won't. That's how the CS likes it. Which is funny because the CS Military Specialist gets it as a Occ skill as well. Just not the Cs Grunt. Which makes up the bulk of the CS forces.

I like the idea of passing the suits on to allies, and perhaps the CS is planning on doing that, they just haven't found the right allies yet. I don't know that Triax would want them.

It made sense for the CS to hoard everything when the RMB was first released. As until other sorucebooks were released it seemed that beyond a few handful of factions. Creating and building MDC suits of power armor, body armor and robots were in the hands of a very select few. Now unless one lives in a very secluded area of Rifts Earth one can't walk ten feet without falling over a suit of body armor. So many factions on Rifts Earth have the knowledge. All the CS has trademarked so to spek is the Dead Boy look.

[Sureshot]

Be forced to retreat and concede territory due to the results of engaging with the enemy.

IE. The CS attacks Lazlo, loses a large number of troops, decides it isn't worth it to continue. Backs off and/or is forced to sign a peace treaty or nonaggression pact against their desires.

Something like this. The CS does not need to be destroyed. Just lose a battle and for once need to sign something like a peace treaty. So far the CS walks in takes losses and wins. I'm expecting Lazlo to be a tough opponent if the CS ever decides to invade. They maybe a peaceful nation yet nothing says they did not learn some new tactis from Tolkien.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay... Let's try this another way.
Which of the CS allies do you think would have bought 1.6 million suits is SAMAS around 105 PA?

[HWalsh]

Be forced to retreat and concede territory due to the results of engaging with the enemy.

IE. The CS attacks Lazlo, loses a large number of troops, decides it isn't worth it to continue. Backs off and/or is forced to sign a peace treaty or nonaggression pact against their desires.

Something like this. The CS does not need to be destroyed. Just lose a battle and for once need to sign something like a peace treaty. So far the CS walks in takes losses and wins. I'm expecting Lazlo to be a tough opponent if the CS ever decides to invade. They maybe a peaceful nation yet nothing says they did not learn some new tactis from Tolkien.

I would even accept:

The CS rolls in, dominates, but before the final blow is struck a commando team captures and holds Prosek and his son hostage.

"Surrender and cease this Emperor Prosek or your line ends here."

Broadcasting publicly Prosek is forced to concede and is humiliated. As part of the pact the CS cannot expand, by way of war, for 20 years. As part of it the CS is forced to reduce their numbers of troops.

Sure the CS can violate it at any time, but it means the CS for a while at least, is forced to be more covert in their activities.

[Tor]

I guess they essentially used the "taking SDC damage while in MDC armor" rules into account for those numbers. Not that they would have necessarily thought of it that way.

I guess they did a lot of falling... or else a lot of Phase Weapons made their way to Tolkeen and we did not find out about it.

Or there is that whole GI Joe MDC breakaway already in effect and for some reason Tolkeenites opted not to vape unarmored guys and for some reason just sicked a bunch of SDC-inflicting animal familiars or non-Vibro-wielding skeletons to pummel them to death out of cruelty, wanting to spare them a quick death.

Or, pet theory: the Vanguard mass-infiltrated the CS infantry (via that Merc Adventures spell that masks them from Psi-Stalkers along with Invisibility Superior) and vandalized all the Dead Boy armor with Lifeward spells they somehow camouflaged to prevent them from being removed.

Considering that psychics work within the Vanguard, the Stalkers within Psi-Battalion could have been partially co-opted by the Vanguard enough to realize the benefit of the Lifeward and to turn a blind eye to it to improve the survival chances of their troops. Perhaps the Vanguard voluntarily offered some sweet PPE in exchange to convert growing amounts of Psi-Bat to be allies.

The CS retired 3.2 million old-style SAMAS when the new styles came out.
Which means that they have ~3.2 million SAMAS Pilots.

Not sure about that, it could be 2 SAMAS per pilot, or 2 pilot per SAMAS. Not sure there is any actually knowing the ratio. The number of power armor units produced could have exceeded the number of people propertly trained to use them. The CS may have over-estimated their recruitment drive or how easy it is to train illiterate scared people.

Having the number of PA exceed the pilots could allow you to replace a damaged SAMAS with an undamaged one more readily, keeping the pilots active while the suit is being repaired or re-armed (those mini-missiles need to be replaced, rail gun round drums re-loaded, etc)

Conversely, having 2 or 3 or 4 pilots share the same SAMAS would allow the suit to make full use of its nuclear capabilities through 24-hour operation in 12 or 8 or 6 hour shifts. So long as they did not get damaged or have to deplete their ammo through encounters, this would be a good idea to best utilize resources. But if they got in an encounter during the shift, their SAMAS-squad would need a fresh unit while the old one is sent to the CS-Operators to get an MDC replenish.

Not as if the CS is smart enough to acquire the Naruni Forcefields for SAMAS before deporting them, so repair down-time will be an issue. Not smart to send a damaged unit out on patrol when you can help it, so they would probably be taken out of circulation even when the damage is very minor to lessen the chance of losing them.

The CS may have simply realized how useful they were and amassed a huge stockpile...

I mean, for all we know the number of SAMAS may have exceeded the number of environmental Dead Boy armor!

I would not look in this so much as -we value human life and want to spend millions to preserve it- so much as -we burn through Dead Boy EBA quick an waste thousands of credits when they die, in some cases it is cheaper to make a SAM, the pilots are more mobile, cover more ground, can better kill opponents, etc

The reason they would produce more SAMAS than Dead Boy EBA (if my assumption proves true) is also why they might start cycling in the more effective units like the Super-SAMAS, better to keep the old stuff as back-ups and mass-produce the cutting-edge stuff which utterly outmatches most opponents and gets better mileage.

Although... if you are going to take out millions of SAMAS I hope they re-appropriate their nuclear batteries or find some way to pause their countdowns, otherwise the clock would be pointlessly ticking away on them.

You do realize that's very likely a number that was pulled out of thin air right. Who makes that many suits of armor then suddenly retire and mothball them simply because newer ones are avaialble.

How much thought the author put into the number does not matter, it is canon and we must justify it within the world.

I consider them a reserve used if the CS is put on the defensive. It is more economic that way. The classic SAMAS is a wealth of kinetic weaponry, with a rail gun and mini-missiles. Newer units like the Super SAM on the other hand can pretty much fire indefinitely with their nuclear-powered plasma cannons, so they do not pay for ammo and can inflict more damage, stuff like that. They can inflict mass destruction on the front lines, but if the CS is ever invaded by mages enchanted by Impervious to Energy en-masse, they are going to have a bad morning with classic SAMAS are equipped to meet them.

They do not even have to Burst you. A classic SAM can simply use its speed to keep a safe distance and use the massive range of its rail gun to single-shot you with 1-4 MD at a time and whittle you down over several minutes. Sure, you can keep renewing your special magical shields, but maybe the CS will pepper your unshielded stuff, like your special hover-bike, instead. Or maybe they simply wait-out your shield and then begin to pepper your permanent armor with the single-rail shots. They seem so small... but they add up, and the SAMAS has a lot of ammo, and will not get tired, can fly around for hours and whittle you down. Or if they want, they can double-mini-missile you and inflict a decent amount of damage for the final blow.

Or heck.. a pair of SAMAS can close-range with you and begin attacking with body flip-throw. Good luck launching attacks at them even if you have some cool Battlefury blade if you have no -next attack- to ever initiate them. Their PA training will probably give them more melee attacks than the mage, so they simply body-flip until the mage runs out of attacks and then use their extra attacks to do a rail gun burst or punch you or pick you up and drop you from a high altitude (lessee what your AoI does gainst fall damage mages!)

Or maybe the SAMAS just fly a few dozen feet above you carrying a satchel of grenades (cheaper than missiles) and drop them on the mage. BOOM. The Super SAMAS forearm Glaunchers were probably designed based on retroSAMAS doing stuff like that.

[Sureshot]

Okay... Let's try this another way.
Which of the CS allies do you think would have bought 1.6 million suits is SAMAS around 105 PA?

Now your being ridiculous for not reason.

As if anyone on Rifts Earth could afford to buy that many suits. Second as if the CS would sell that many suits.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay... Let's try this another way.
Which of the CS allies do you think would have bought 1.6 million suits is SAMAS around 105 PA?

Now your being ridiculous for not reason.

As if anyone on Rifts Earth could afford to buy that many suits. Second as if the CS would sell that many suits.

So... What are you complaining about, then...?
Why bring up selling military surplus if you recognize the unfeasibility when dealing with the SAMAS?

[Sureshot]

I don't see why the CS can't have a major setback once in awhile. It makes it more realistic IMO. Instead of them just steamrolling over all opposition.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't see why the CS can't have a major setback once in awhile. It makes it more realistic IMO. Instead of them just steamrolling over all opposition.

Right.
Kind of like how a heavyweight boxing champ should occasionally lose to a middleweight or lightweight, because things are more realistic that way.

[Brayon]

I don't see why the CS can't have a major setback once in awhile. It makes it more realistic IMO. Instead of them just steamrolling over all opposition.

Right.
Kind of like how a heavyweight boxing champ should occasionally lose to a middleweight or lightweight, because things are more realistic that way.

It's happened before, and without a Don King inspired fall too. I know of at least 1 UFC Heavyweight, who dropped weight, for a Middleweight fight, and lost.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's pretty standard to mothball outdated military equipment when the new equipment is issued.

I'm not disputing that. Usually outdated equipment unless it's still somehow useful. Get sold to allies to make a profit.

Which you seem to think is ridiculous in this case.

Recycled to be used for something else. Or simply destroyed.

Don't see the point in destroying useful power armor.

I doubt the US still has the same number of Sherman tanks in storage it had at the end of World War II.

WWII ended quite a while ago.
The CS semi-retired the old-style SAMAS 4 years ago game-time.

It just seems silly to me at least that 3 million or so suits of power armor just rot away in storage.

That might be silly, but...
-First of all, it's 1.6 million that are actually in storage. The other 1.6 million are in use by the ISS.
-We don't know that there still ARE 1.6 million in storage. The CS might be selling them off here or there to trusted allies, or using them to replace destroyed SAMAS in the field as they get destroyed, or any number of other things.
-I'm pretty sure that power armor doesn't rot. Pre-Rifts power armor is still in decent shape hundreds of years after it was stored, so it seems to have a pretty long shelf-life.

Also, in case of emergency, storing the SAMAS means that they could just issue it to Grunts if the need to, like if there's ever a serious attack on Chi-Town or another CS city, and things get really serious.

Actually the Cs Grunt can't pilot a Samas. They get Robot Combat: Basic as a OCC skill. They need to take Pilot Robots and Power armor as a occ related skill.

RUE 299
If an oCC or RCC starts off with a skill that normally has a prerequisite skill(s), assume that the character has the prerequisite skill as part of their training.

I like the idea of passing the suits on to allies, and perhaps the CS is planning on doing that, they just haven't found the right allies yet. I don't know that Triax would want them.

It made sense for the CS to hoard everything when the RMB was first released. As until other sorucebooks were released it seemed that beyond a few handful of factions. Creating and building MDC suits of power armor, body armor and robots were in the hands of a very select few. Now unless one lives in a very secluded area of Rifts Earth one can't walk ten feet without falling over a suit of body armor. So many factions on Rifts Earth have the knowledge. All the CS has trademarked so to spek is the Dead Boy look.[/quote]

Hyperbole.
Power armor manufacture is still in a pretty small number of hands, overall.
Regardless, the point was that I don't know who they'd pass the suits on to.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't see why the CS can't have a major setback once in awhile. It makes it more realistic IMO. Instead of them just steamrolling over all opposition.

Right.
Kind of like how a heavyweight boxing champ should occasionally lose to a middleweight or lightweight, because things are more realistic that way.

It's happened before, and without a Don King inspired fall too. I know of at least 1 UFC Heavyweight, who dropped weight, for a Middleweight fight, and lost.

Yup. It has happened before.
But not to most heavyweights, and not on a regular basis.
So it's something that can happen, but it's not actually a realistic expectation.

Likewise, I don't get the whole "It's unrealistic for 10 years to pass without the most powerful nation in North America losing to somebody who has less population than the powerful nation has cannon fodder" viewpoint.

How many wars has the US actually lost in the past 10 years?
What about Canada?
What about other major nations in the modern world?
Is the world "unrealistic" because the most powerful nations don't usually suffer a loss in warfare every 10 years or so?

[Sureshot]

I must have missed that rule in RUE. Just feels like lazy occs design to me. Why not just give the occs the proper skills they need in the first place. We can go back and forth all night KC and were not going to agree on it. We have two different view points. Neither is wrong IMO.

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS retired 3.2 million old-style SAMAS when the new styles came out.
Which means that they have ~3.2 million SAMAS Pilots.

Not sure about that, it could be 2 SAMAS per pilot, or 2 pilot per SAMAS. Not sure there is any actually knowing the ratio.

Hence the "~", although I agree that there's a pretty wide margin of error with that approximation.

The number of power armor units produced could have exceeded the number of people propertly trained to use them. The CS may have over-estimated their recruitment drive or how easy it is to train illiterate scared people.

Possible, but unlikely. Every CS Grunt can pilot SAMAS, so they're pretty good at training people to use it.
They could have also over-produced in order to have a surplus to quickly replace destroyed or damaged suits, but since 3.2 million is the number that were retired, the implication is that they were actually in use. Otherwise language like "are still in mothballs" (or whatever) would have been more appropriate than "were mothballed" (or whatever).

Conversely, having 2 or 3 or 4 pilots share the same SAMAS would allow the suit to make full use of its nuclear capabilities through 24-hour operation in 12 or 8 or 6 hour shifts. So long as they did not get damaged or have to deplete their ammo through encounters, this would be a good idea to best utilize resources. But if they got in an encounter during the shift, their SAMAS-squad would need a fresh unit while the old one is sent to the CS-Operators to get an MDC replenish.

That would likely depend on how extensive the damage is. It it was just a few MDC knocked off, it could probably keep in rotation. If it was medium damage, the suit could be swapped with another suit in a less prominent/important/combat-likely role/area.
But, overall, yes.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the guys who typically fly the SAMAS are the RPA Elite OCCs, "the men and women behind the terrifying visage of the SAMAS, Sky Cycles, Enforcer UAR-1s, and Spider-Skull Walkers."
Which means that the CS is most likely to have a significantly high number of pilots than suits of SAMAS, because their pilots do more than JUST pilot SAMAS.
Giving each pilot 1 SAMAS, 1 Sky Cycle, 1 Enforcer, and 1 Spider-Skull Walker seems highly unlikely.
A more likely scenario is that number of those different vehicle types combined would roughly equal the number of total pilots.
An even more likely scenario is that the total number of all those vehicles combined would be significantly less than the total number of pilots, both for the reasons that you point out above (more efficient use of the armor), and because the RPA Elite are also co-pilots, so you should have more than one per vehicle anyway for many vehicles, and because if a pilot is wounded/incapacitated/compromised/sick it would make sense to have spare pilots ready to step into his shoes.

The CS may have simply realized how useful they were and amassed a huge stockpile...
I mean, for all we know the number of SAMAS may have exceeded the number of environmental Dead Boy armor!

Possible.
Again, though, the language used in the relevant passage indicates that the suits were actually in use until they were replaced by the new SAMAS types.

Although... if you are going to take out millions of SAMAS I hope they re-appropriate their nuclear batteries or find some way to pause their countdowns, otherwise the clock would be pointlessly ticking away on them.

Storage of nuclear vehicles and such is never really addressed, but I house-rule that the power sources can be disconnected for long-term storage.

You do realize that's very likely a number that was pulled out of thin air right. Who makes that many suits of armor then suddenly retire and mothball them simply because newer ones are avaialble.

How much thought the author put into the number does not matter, it is canon and we must justify it within the world.

Pretty much, yeah.

[Killer Cyborg]

I must have missed that rule in RUE.

That's likely why they bolded that passage in the books, in case people were prone to missing it.
Regardless, the rule was passed on to us via Palladium staff years before RUE came out.
It would be nice if it had seen actual print sooner, though.

Just feels like lazy occs design to me. Why not just give the occs the proper skills they need in the first place.

It's not a bad catch for errors, but it might well be laziness.
It's something that's been an issue since the RMB, though, because the original SAMAS pilots didn't have the "Pilot: Robots & Power Armor" skill, and that raised some eyebrows at the time.
Which is why Palladium eventually started just letting people know about the rule, even though it wasn't in print.
They might have instituted it to cover up their mistakes, or they might have initially (and mistakenly) thought that it would be "common sense."

We can go back and forth all night KC and were not going to agree on it. We have two different view points. Neither is wrong IMO.

Incorrect.

[Sureshot]

Incorrect.

Incotrect in your opinion and nothing more. You need to learn to let it go. As I have.

[Killer Cyborg]

Incorrect.

Incotrect in your opinion and nothing more. You need to learn to let it go. As I have.

Why are you still trying to talk about this?

[The Beast]

I must have missed that rule in RUE.

That's likely why they bolded that passage in the books, in case people were prone to missing it.
Regardless, the rule was passed on to us via Palladium staff years before RUE came out.
It would be nice if it had seen actual print sooner, though.

Just feels like lazy occs design to me. Why not just give the occs the proper skills they need in the first place.

It's not a bad catch for errors, but it might well be laziness.
It's something that's been an issue since the RMB, though, because the original SAMAS pilots didn't have the "Pilot: Robots & Power Armor" skill, and that raised some eyebrows at the time.
Which is why Palladium eventually started just letting people know about the rule, even though it wasn't in print.
They might have instituted it to cover up their mistakes, or they might have initially (and mistakenly) thought that it would be "common sense."

GB Pilots had the same issue in the RMB.

[flatline]

I don't see why the CS can't have a major setback once in awhile. It makes it more realistic IMO. Instead of them just steamrolling over all opposition.

Right.
Kind of like how a heavyweight boxing champ should occasionally lose to a middleweight or lightweight, because things are more realistic that way.

Lightweight vs heavyweight in a ring where every move is visible and your options are constrained by the rules is one thing. Lightweight vs heavyweight in a dark alley is quite another thing.

Which do you think is the better analogy for Rifts Earth?

--flatline

[HWalsh]

I don't see why the CS can't have a major setback once in awhile. It makes it more realistic IMO. Instead of them just steamrolling over all opposition.

Right.
Kind of like how a heavyweight boxing champ should occasionally lose to a middleweight or lightweight, because things are more realistic that way.

KC - Uh... Not the best analogy.

Boxing rings have rules. There are techniques that have to be followed.

This would be more like a heavyweight boxer fighting a lightweight kickboxer.

The reason being would be that the CS doesn't use magic, meaning their options are more limited in combat than would be available to opponents who would. Thus the CS would be a boxer, following the limited rules of boxing, while their enemy is a kickboxer who can utilize maneuvers that the boxer can't and isn't particularly equipped to truly defend against.

[Alrik Vas]

The problem here, is that even with a gross miscalculation of their enemy's power like we saw at tolkeen, the CS still pulled out a win. I think it could make for an interesting story if they fell on hard times, but I don't see it as realistic with the way they're portrayed.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't see why the CS can't have a major setback once in awhile. It makes it more realistic IMO. Instead of them just steamrolling over all opposition.

Right.
Kind of like how a heavyweight boxing champ should occasionally lose to a middleweight or lightweight, because things are more realistic that way.

KC - Uh... Not the best analogy.

Boxing rings have rules. There are techniques that have to be followed.

This would be more like a heavyweight boxer fighting a lightweight kickboxer.

Hey, I could have gone with "sometimes an oncoming train should bounce off a car in its path."
Point is that it's not unrealistic for the person/nation with the very clear advantage to win consistently over a 10-year span.

(If you count setbacks like getting your butt temporarily handed to you by a group of Juicers, then wasting years sieging a city that should have been over-run in weeks "consistently winning.")

[HWalsh]

The problem here, is that even with a gross miscalculation of their enemy's power like we saw at tolkeen, the CS still pulled out a win. I think it could make for an interesting story if they fell on hard times, but I don't see it as realistic with the way they're portrayed.

The CS got hammered at Tolkeen, they quite possibly only won it because of a pair of fluke occurrences.

Fluke 1:
Tolkeen going on the Sorcerer's Revenge caused the loose alliance with FQ to falter which caused FQ and the CS to enter into an agreement which freed up CS forces.

Fluke 2:
The group diverted into bug country managed to survive (a miracle at that) and hit Tolkeen from behind.

-----

I could see the CS actually lose, if, and only if, Lazlo had something up their sleeve that they are holding back. We don't know because there is no information on Lazlo.

If, for example, Lazlo had developed some kind of defense shield that stops WMD strikes, but had their own WMD's to pelt the CS forces in return, if used at the right moment, the defensible city of Lazlo could hold off against forces easily dwarfing them in size. If they had some way to damage, or disable, tech that has not been revealed, then the CS could be crippled.

Imagine if, at a certain point, some kind of spell goes off and for say 20 minutes no technology works. Meaning for 20 minutes no SAMAS, no lasers, no MD weapons of any kind, power armor can't move, environmental armor doesn't work, and at that moment magical attacks of massive destruction go off... That could cripple, outright cripple, the CS forces and could force them to flee... This could also kill any CS borgs, potentially juicers, or anything else.

Not even going to comment on if they find a way to *destroy* technology rather than just temporarily disable it. That is the CS's fatal flaw. They are nearly 100% dependent on technology. There *has* to be a way to neutralize technology, at least for a few minutes.

[Killer Cyborg]

By that same rationale, the CS might come up with a way to neutralize magic within a radius for a period.

But betting on Black Swans is always a longshot.

[HWalsh]

Hey, I could have gone with "sometimes an oncoming train should bounce off a car in its path."

July 1999, 3 teenagers in Indiana caused a train to derail by leaving a brick on the tracks.

So, I see your statement and say, "Sometimes a simple brick can derail an oncoming train."

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey, I could have gone with "sometimes an oncoming train should bounce off a car in its path."

July 1999, 3 teenagers in Indiana caused a train to derail by leaving a brick on the tracks.

So, I see your statement and say, "Sometimes a simple brick can derail an oncoming train."

That's why I went with a car.

[HWalsh]

By that same rationale, the CS might come up with a way to neutralize magic within a radius for a period.

But betting on Black Swans is always a longshot.

I honestly feel that neutralizing technology would be far easier through a magical or technological means than it would be to disable magic through entirely technological means. Also I think it can be magically done in some way.

[HWalsh]

Hey, I could have gone with "sometimes an oncoming train should bounce off a car in its path."

July 1999, 3 teenagers in Indiana caused a train to derail by leaving a brick on the tracks.

So, I see your statement and say, "Sometimes a simple brick can derail an oncoming train."

That's why I went with a car.

If a brick can do it, so can a car.

[HWalsh]

Hey, I could have gone with "sometimes an oncoming train should bounce off a car in its path."

July 1999, 3 teenagers in Indiana caused a train to derail by leaving a brick on the tracks.

So, I see your statement and say, "Sometimes a simple brick can derail an oncoming train."

That's why I went with a car.

Oh and a car can do it too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A ... l_disaster

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey, I could have gone with "sometimes an oncoming train should bounce off a car in its path."

July 1999, 3 teenagers in Indiana caused a train to derail by leaving a brick on the tracks.

So, I see your statement and say, "Sometimes a simple brick can derail an oncoming train."

That's why I went with a car.

Oh and a car can do it too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A ... l_disaster

lol

Anything's possible.
But it's not the way to bet.

[Shark_Force]

tolkeen going on the sorcerers revenge cost them all their mercenary allies, the cyber-knights that had joined the cause, and basically everyone with even a shred of morality...

but ultimately, from what i can tell, the root cause of free quebec breaking their alliance with tolkeen was the alliance between tolkeen and free quebec. that is, i never got the impression that FQ had any intention whatsoever of really making any kind of deal with tolkeen. rather, i got the impression that FQ hated tolkeen through and through and the moment they knew there were tolkeen forces (especially demons and monsters) in their territory they decided to expunge them and use it as a means of obtaining peace with the only nation on the continent their rampant xenophobia considers even remotely tolerable (or at the very least, the only nation that is powerful enough to make them willing to treat them as being remotely tolerable).

in any event, i don't really look at any of the fights the CS has one and feel like, with their official numbers, they should have lost.

i object to the manner in which they won, mind you. holmes leading his troops through xiticix country for months and coming out with an army instead of a mob of starving, sleep-deprived, heavily traumatized raving lunatics (many of whom should have also been killed as a result of people snapping and opening fire on the xiticix) upsets me. on the flipside, had the CS said "oh, well since nukes didn't work i guess we'll just land a million soldiers backed up by a million skelebots and a million dog boys outside their barrier and brute force the city", again bearing in mind the degree to which they possess overwhelming firepower, i wouldn't have been particularly upset to see them win that fight (or rather, i would have considered that to be a reasonable outcome... i think i would've been rooting for tolkeen, especially if they hadn't decided that having demons for friends was somehow going to not end badly). frankly, the decision to wage war in a manner that allowed guerilla tactics against an opponent with literally supernatural ability to conduct guerilla warfare was quite baffling, as were many other decisions (by both sides) in that fight. but the outcome? well, given the official numbers, it's not surprising that the CS won, it's surprising that it took them so long to win.

[Blue_Lion]

tolkeen going on the sorcerers revenge cost them all their mercenary allies, the cyber-knights that had joined the cause, and basically everyone with even a shred of morality...

but ultimately, from what i can tell, the root cause of free quebec breaking their alliance with tolkeen was the alliance between tolkeen and free quebec. that is, i never got the impression that FQ had any intention whatsoever of really making any kind of deal with tolkeen. rather, i got the impression that FQ hated tolkeen through and through and the moment they knew there were tolkeen forces (especially demons and monsters) in their territory they decided to expunge them and use it as a means of obtaining peace with the only nation on the continent their rampant xenophobia considers even remotely tolerable (or at the very least, the only nation that is powerful enough to make them willing to treat them as being remotely tolerable).

in any event, i don't really look at any of the fights the CS has one and feel like, with their official numbers, they should have lost.

i object to the manner in which they won, mind you. holmes leading his troops through xiticix country for months and coming out with an army instead of a mob of starving, sleep-deprived, heavily traumatized raving lunatics (many of whom should have also been killed as a result of people snapping and opening fire on the xiticix) upsets me. on the flipside, had the CS said "oh, well since nukes didn't work i guess we'll just land a million soldiers backed up by a million skelebots and a million dog boys outside their barrier and brute force the city", again bearing in mind the degree to which they possess overwhelming firepower, i wouldn't have been particularly upset to see them win that fight (or rather, i would have considered that to be a reasonable outcome... i think i would've been rooting for tolkeen, especially if they hadn't decided that having demons for friends was somehow going to not end badly). frankly, the decision to wage war in a manner that allowed guerilla tactics against an opponent with literally supernatural ability to conduct guerilla warfare was quite baffling, as were many other decisions (by both sides) in that fight. but the outcome? well, given the official numbers, it's not surprising that the CS won, it's surprising that it took them so long to win.

Perhaps part of the reason is the official use of WWII tactics by the CS. It has been proven that gorilla tactics can cripple traditional armies ability to fight. The CS had not had any large scale battle since its creation and that time it was on the defensive. Normally when a CS army had conflict it was against a small target such as a town or traveling band. So they lacked the combat experience to draw upon to wage a large scale invasion. Making any disruption by guerrilla units would cause critical reduction of combat progress.

Against the small targets they are use to fighting sending an over whelming swarm did the trick. How ever against an enemy with an almost untouchable strong hold thanks to magical defense. And large tracts of lands to conduct guerrilla warfare in swarming does not work as well. You can not sweep and clear a land from hostiles to secure supply lines if the hostiles can just teleport behind you. If you rush all your troops to the goal and can not take the goal and have your supply lines destroyed you army will loose. Guerrilla warfare is slow and time consuming and can allow a smaller force to win against a larger force. It was not a battle like taking Iraq but a war like Vietnam.

[Tor]

They could have also over-produced in order to have a surplus to quickly replace destroyed or damaged suits, but since 3.2 million is the number that were retired, the implication is that they were actually in use. Otherwise language like "are still in mothballs" (or whatever) would have been more appropriate than "were mothballed" (or whatever).

In-use doesn't mean they were all being used simultaneously though, they could have been used and then put on repair-rotation when receiving damage.

the CS is most likely to have a significantly high number of pilots than suits of SAMAS, because their pilots do more than JUST pilot SAMAS.

The CS may also receive a significantly high rate of damage to their PA and vehicles throughout use so that could still pressure them to have many back-ups so they can rotate in a full-MDC backup any time they briefly repair-rotate the compromised one.

Giving each pilot 1 SAMAS, 1 Sky Cycle, 1 Enforcer, and 1 Spider-Skull Walker seems highly unlikely.

Enforcers and Skull Walkers are not going to be as plentiful (or useful) and the longer-range weapons of those robots (and likely support they would receive from smaller units) would lessen the likelihood they would be damaged and reduce the number of backups needed to support repair-rotation.

A more likely scenario is that number of those different vehicle types combined would roughly equal the number of total pilots.

If that was the case then you would always have pilots who would be without a vehicle prepared for duty because it had to be rotated out for repairs.

I don't know the ratio because while initially you have a pilots-outnumber-vehicle force (patrol shift rotation sharing) you have a vehicles-outnumber-pilots force (repair out-rotation) to counter-act that and unless we know how long the patrol shifts are versus how often SAMAS suits got damaged, I can't calculate a ratio.

An even more likely scenario is that the total number of all those vehicles combined would be significantly less than the total number of pilots, both for the reasons that you point out above (more efficient use of the armor), and because the RPA Elite are also co-pilots, so you should have more than one per vehicle anyway for many vehicles, and because if a pilot is wounded/incapacitated/compromised/sick it would make sense to have spare pilots ready to step into his shoes.

The number of RPA Elite that can be trained would be limited by attribute requirements and security vetting though (a SAMAS is a more dangerous weapon than a DeadBoy suit so you don't want to hand it to just any Burbs immigrant) so the CS may be able to manufacture suits faster than it can train and security-check competent pilots.

Again, though, the language used in the relevant passage indicates that the suits were actually in use until they were replaced by the new SAMAS types.

That's okay, since in-use does not mean "each of these suits had an RPA dedicated solely to it".

Due to repair concerns I think RPAs each may have had a SAMAS harem.

[HWalsh]

Hey, I could have gone with "sometimes an oncoming train should bounce off a car in its path."

July 1999, 3 teenagers in Indiana caused a train to derail by leaving a brick on the tracks.

So, I see your statement and say, "Sometimes a simple brick can derail an oncoming train."

That's why I went with a car.

Oh and a car can do it too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A ... l_disaster

lol

Anything's possible.
But it's not the way to bet.

It goes like this: The CS has tech.

That is it. In an MDC fight numbers matter far less than tech. Take out the tech and the CS is helpless. We have seen things in the Megaverse that can stop tech cold.

If I were Lazlo that would be priority one.

"Find a way to stop their tech."

Now, you counter asserting that the CS should be able to use tech to stop magic if that were the case. I disagree, stopping tech should be much easier than magic... Especially on Rifts Earth.

Tech is vulnerable to tech... (See Splicers... That's a great counter to conventional tech... Then, of course, there is the EMP, but you'd need to overcome shielding.)

Tech is probably vulnerable to magic too.

If Lazlo came up with a way to take tech out of the equation, it is almost a sure thing that the CS would lose.

Whereas Lazlo has tech, magic, and psionics.

While the CS also has psionics, there are far fewer ones.

Heck, if I were writing it I'd have ARCHIE three do it. Develop a tech weapon, gift it to Lazlo, tell them to use it to weaken the CS should they ever attack. Claiming it is alien tech or something.

Just once I want to see the CS actually suffer a substantial and lasting loss.

[Shark_Force]

tolkeen was not a nearly impenetrable target. their forcefield is great against a single wave of explosives. it is virtually useless against a constant assault by people with laser rifles.

[flatline]

Just once I want to see the CS actually suffer a substantial and lasting loss.

That would require advancing the time line which, in my mind, is the worst thing that Palladium could do.

Of course, they do it all the time.

Ask me how happy I am about that...

--flatline

[Kagashi]

Not sure were all the his is going. Honestly, the CS HAS lost territory and had major set backs. They lost the second largest military force in North America (Free Quebec) and the events of the Juicer Uprising may have been a "victory" but they failed in destroying the juicer army.

The acquisition of CS Missouri and Arkansas were small and almost insignificant compared to the loss of Free Quebec. Additionally the cost of the Tolkeen war has stalled the advance of the Campaing of Unity for the next few years.

[eliakon]

It goes like this: The CS has tech.

That is it. In an MDC fight numbers matter far less than tech. Take out the tech and the CS is helpless. We have seen things in the Megaverse that can stop tech cold.

If I were Lazlo that would be priority one.

"Find a way to stop their tech."

Now, you counter asserting that the CS should be able to use tech to stop magic if that were the case. I disagree, stopping tech should be much easier than magic... Especially on Rifts Earth.

Tech is vulnerable to tech... (See Splicers... That's a great counter to conventional tech... Then, of course, there is the EMP, but you'd need to overcome shielding.)

Tech is probably vulnerable to magic too.

If Lazlo came up with a way to take tech out of the equation, it is almost a sure thing that the CS would lose.

Whereas Lazlo has tech, magic, and psionics.

While the CS also has psionics, there are far fewer ones.

Heck, if I were writing it I'd have ARCHIE three do it. Develop a tech weapon, gift it to Lazlo, tell them to use it to weaken the CS should they ever attack. Claiming it is alien tech or something.

Just once I want to see the CS actually suffer a substantial and lasting loss.

I am not sure where you are going with this?
"If Lazlo came up with a way to take tech out of the equation, it is almost a sure thing the CS would lose."
Duh, and if the CS found a way to take magic out of the equation Lazlo would lose. Any situation that is predicated on "Well first we alter things, so that the situation is not the one that prevails, but one where what I want is the only possible out come." Is not really a discussion....its just as much rampant Plotism as the CS Is accused of possessing. Infact its WORSE. Its saying that the CS has plot armor SO THICK that the only way you can see to pierce it is to handwave away the actual reality by just saying "poof their goes tech" (Nevermind than no one else has gotten rid of tech yet)

[HWalsh]

I am not sure where you are going with this?
"If Lazlo came up with a way to take tech out of the equation, it is almost a sure thing the CS would lose."
Duh, and if the CS found a way to take magic out of the equation Lazlo would lose. Any situation that is predicated on "Well first we alter things, so that the situation is not the one that prevails, but one where what I want is the only possible out come." Is not really a discussion....its just as much rampant Plotism as the CS Is accused of possessing. Infact its WORSE. Its saying that the CS has plot armor SO THICK that the only way you can see to pierce it is to handwave away the actual reality by just saying "poof their goes tech" (Nevermind than no one else has gotten rid of tech yet)

Eliakon - There is already a precedent in the megaverse for getting rid of tech. Heck, it is the entire basis for Splicers. The computer created a nano-virus that made it so that any metal infected humans come into contact with becomes a hostile robot. There is also a precedent in real life for devices specifically designed to target and destroy tech. (See: Electromagnetic Pulse.) Thus, it is very conceivable that someone would eventually come up with a way using either magic or technology to stop technology. It is far less likely that the CS could do this against Magic because the CS doesn't exactly have any high level Magic Users who are actively working for them whereas it is very likely that Lazlo, for example, has a few high level weapons engineers on the payroll.

Edit - To add - If someone found a way to simply temporarily drain the charge out of energy cells over a wide area it would work... Heck we know that you can already Psychically take out tech, in some cases over a wider area, or at least greatly hinder tech. Meaning, it is very realistic to assume that sooner or later someone is going to find some way to take tech out of an equation.

I know that is a scary concept for many players of Rifts who love running with mega-tech and never having any issues with it, but having something that can (at least temporarily) fry tech is bound to happen sooner or later.

[Killer Cyborg]

It goes like this: The CS has tech.

That is it. In an MDC fight numbers matter far less than tech. Take out the tech and the CS is helpless. We have seen things in the Megaverse that can stop tech cold.

If I were Lazlo that would be priority one.

"Find a way to stop their tech."

Now, you counter asserting that the CS should be able to use tech to stop magic if that were the case. I disagree, stopping tech should be much easier than magic... Especially on Rifts Earth.

Tech is vulnerable to tech... (See Splicers... That's a great counter to conventional tech... Then, of course, there is the EMP, but you'd need to overcome shielding.)

Tech is probably vulnerable to magic too.

If Lazlo came up with a way to take tech out of the equation, it is almost a sure thing that the CS would lose.

Whereas Lazlo has tech, magic, and psionics.

While the CS also has psionics, there are far fewer ones.

Unlike magic, psionics actually work quite well with tech.
All that the CS would need to do to take out magic more effectively is to come up with booster technology for Nega-Psychics.
And I'm not saying that they SHOULD be able to do this, just that it's at least as plausible as some kind of super-anti-tech weapon.

Just once I want to see the CS actually suffer a substantial and lasting loss.

See, what I want is for things to unfold in a reasonable manner that makes for good storytelling.
But different strokes for different folks.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am not sure where you are going with this?
"If Lazlo came up with a way to take tech out of the equation, it is almost a sure thing the CS would lose."
Duh, and if the CS found a way to take magic out of the equation Lazlo would lose. Any situation that is predicated on "Well first we alter things, so that the situation is not the one that prevails, but one where what I want is the only possible out come." Is not really a discussion....its just as much rampant Plotism as the CS Is accused of possessing. Infact its WORSE. Its saying that the CS has plot armor SO THICK that the only way you can see to pierce it is to handwave away the actual reality by just saying "poof their goes tech" (Nevermind than no one else has gotten rid of tech yet)

Eliakon - There is already a precedent in the megaverse for getting rid of tech. Heck, it is the entire basis for Splicers. The computer created a nano-virus that made it so that any metal infected humans come into contact with becomes a hostile robot. There is also a precedent in real life for devices specifically designed to target and destroy tech. (See: Electromagnetic Pulse.) Thus, it is very conceivable that someone would eventually come up with a way using either magic or technology to stop technology. It is far less likely that the CS could do this against Magic because the CS doesn't exactly have any high level Magic Users who are actively working for them whereas it is very likely that Lazlo, for example, has a few high level weapons engineers on the payroll.

Edit - To add - If someone found a way to simply temporarily drain the charge out of energy cells over a wide area it would work... Heck we know that you can already Psychically take out tech, in some cases over a wider area, or at least greatly hinder tech. Meaning, it is very realistic to assume that sooner or later someone is going to find some way to take tech out of an equation.

I know that is a scary concept for many players of Rifts who love running with mega-tech and never having any issues with it, but having something that can (at least temporarily) fry tech is bound to happen sooner or later.

\

Splicers is also a precedent for an entire planet where magic doesn't really work, IIRC.

[Richardson]

It goes like this: The CS has tech.

That is it.

Not so much actually. I know it's scattered about various books (a major problem in proving any point on this forum), but the CS is arguably well adapted to the relatively magic-heavy North American environment. Unlike the NGR which IS 99% technology-based and demonstrates it through continually advancing weaponry and tactics (the use of micro-robots to kill Gargoyle eggs en mass whenever a rookery is infiltrated for instance in Triax 2) the CS Military has a very strong leaning towards specialized psionics. 6% of all CS Grunts are Psi-Stalkers complete with all the tracking, sixth sense, and occasionally clairvoyance that goes with that. This is listed in the RUE under the CS Grunt (p.233), and specifically mentions that these are -grunts-, not Civilized Psi-Stalkers or Psi-Battalion. That comes to 3 per 50, which is more or less the same as 1 or 2 kids per every classroom of kids in public school (and again that's discounting the ones going through "special programs" altogether). I can't cite the number of Dog Boys off the top of my head, but if I recall it was a large percentage as well both in and out of cities; perhaps equal to 10% of the number of Grunts? And of those Grunts, assuming the overwhelming majority (aside from the 6% Stalkers) are pure human, 25% have random psionic powers as well. After that we add in the actual Psi-Battalion of 6380 Master Level psychics currently working for the CS Military (as of World Book 12 p.145, timeline wise pre-Tolkeen I think), some of whom are noted as being as high as level 10. A tenth level Psi-Nullifier or Mind Melter protected by some 40 Grunts, 4 Dog Boys, 2 Robots, and 8 PAs can steamroll the average town/camp/tribe fairly handily I would think. And all those scattered or concentrated Psionic powers the CS Military routinely employs mean it is well equipped to detect and under decent circumstances counter a wide array of low to medium level Magic and Supernatural threats using fewer resources (i.e. the INFINITE mini-missile and PA capacity of Triax or the astounding 50+% Borg armies of Russia) than other world powers. Page 145 also states that "a couple thousand" more recruits were about to enter initial training at that time as well. Given the history of the CS this should surprise no one. Chi-Town's original defense against the Federation of Magic is legendary in the CS, and made the military KEENLY aware of the strategic necessity of the supernaturally sensitive as well as having protocols in place to deal with incursions on any scale.

Really, "scale" is the primary problem this entire thread appears to be having. The CS military has, compared to past ages, virtually no knowledge of or experience with modern large-scale engagements, containment, or military action. As the CS grew from a conglomerate of nearby farms close to a Mega City partially under construction into the State(s) represented today there were zero (recorded) large scale (arbitrarily 1000+ fighters on either side) engagements/battles aside from the original assault by the Federation of Magic. As written in the original corebook a dozen guys in body armor could set themselves up like kings in your average village, a robot vehicle made you the baddest thing around for miles unless a dragon/demon/whatever showed up, and ANY suit of power armor meant you could demand to be one of the highest paid mercenaries on the continent. When our friendly neighborhood Deadboys went on patrol that's exactly what they were. Patrols. Numbers for which are listed in Sourcebook 1 pg. 27 for anyone interested in reading the exact composition pre-CS War Campaign. The Rifts Novels actually do a good job going in to how 2 SAMAS, 1 UAR-1, and 20 Grunts in a long range patrol took down an entire band of mercs led by some powerful dudes several times.

Almost nobody could actually muster anything CLOSE to an "army" originally. The CS did not devote hundreds or thousands of troopers and equipment into a fight because there was more or less never a need to. Demons never really fought together as originally written, the Xitictix kept to themselves mostly so no one ever fought a whole hive at once, there weren't any bandit kingdoms where more than 50 outlaws were actually armed with military-grade equipment, etc. This follows not only the trend of the Dark Ages, but even the Golden Age as warfare was continually downsized post WWII to emphasize specialized squads making surgical strikes over mass engagements (didn't 12 Glitter Boys knock out 2 whole country's military dictatorships over a long weekend in the original books?), guerrilla tactics over gun-line formations, and quick response kill teams to blanket suppression forces. If memory serves the CS War Campaign even made a point of stating that it had been several hundred years since a true standing army vs. anything army-equivalent had been formed in North America. And please remember that the CS is organizing its forces using Radios, not Satellites. So terrain and distance are serious limitations, especially when compounded with forces which can fly at over 100 MPH out of simple radio range.

I believe the issues of scale, psionics, and versatility are the most likely reasons why the CS isn't composed entirely of SAMAS or equivalent forces like the NGR is making strides towards. You need feet on the ground to occupy a territory. Preferably feet that can prowl, take cover, or easily fit inside buildings and ruins. Even ejecting the flight pack and wings on a SAMAS it is difficult to fit among ruined buildings, into crawl ways, or down caves and tunnels like subways. Additionally if you go too quickly by jogging/flying in PA it doesn't give the psychic sensitives time to scour an area and determine it clean of magical/supernatural threats, find survivors, locate lost tech or resources, etc. The original CS military wasn't a standing army, it was a "please fix this" force equipped for theoretical environmental, supernatural, criminal, or rescue operations. They were the frikkin saviors of humanity, not trench fighters. Additionally if anyone but the BEST troops had SAMAS that raises the risk that EVERY mutineer, desertee, or AWOL grunt could instantly become able to travel/escape hundreds of miles each day in any direction regardless of terrain (save open ocean I suppose), be armored and equipped better than your average Wellington Industries re-fab Tank, and a serious threat to both the environment (cracked mini nuke power cores poisoning ground water and ruining farmland perhaps) and your loyal forces (sending 40 CS SAMAS to take on 20 Traitor SAMAS all trained in hit and run guerrilla warfare sounds nearly impossible to do cleanly or quickly without magical backup or an insanely good trap/ambush). So yeah, it actually makes a fair bit of sense to not have a completely Flying PA army from the perspective of an "as needed" force led by arguably inexperienced Army commanders in a paranoid, newly-minted, militarized nation state built off controlled ignorance and fear.

[glitterboy2098]

technology has advantages in warfare for the same reasons the gun supplanted the Bow. it takes years to train a good bowman, but a handgunner could be trained to effectiveness in months. not everyone was physically suied to being a bowman.. but anyone with half a brain and two arms could become a handgunner.

magic is the same. it takes years/decades to train a mage, and not every person is capable of becoming one. but you can train someone to have the needed WP for a laser rifle in the span of a few weeks.. and can train them in the basics of combat in a few months.

[Richardson]

Edit - To add - If someone found a way to simply temporarily drain the charge out of energy cells over a wide area it would work... Heck we know that you can already Psychically take out tech, in some cases over a wider area, or at least greatly hinder tech. Meaning, it is very realistic to assume that sooner or later someone is going to find some way to take tech out of an equation.

I know that is a scary concept for many players of Rifts who love running with mega-tech and never having any issues with it, but having something that can (at least temporarily) fry tech is bound to happen sooner or later.

Yeah, this is totally theoretically possible. It's a setting where a mutant gerbil could learn kung fu and ride a shark with robotic legs while dual wielding uzis which fire magic fire bullets. Anything can happen and this is honestly one of the tamer hypotheticals I've heard of the years which is totally possible.

But there are 2 limitations of this train of thought I will sum up in 1 word: Rifles. It's not just augmented super soldiers and mercs which use rifles, it's also nearly every Mage and Psychic. The "humble" energy rifle is the go to "weapon of defense" for almost literally every non-supernatural class/character in the game. Damage, range, rate of fire, availability, you name it and the Rifle is better than most spells, powers, and tricks. For that matter even a wide variety of Supernatural critters like Brodkil, Gargoyles, and Rahu-Men use rifles when the opportunity presents itself; I don't remember the last time I read description of a Rifts dragon hoard which didn't include some modern weapons for the sake of having them. If it's in Rifts, has a "hand", and can pull a trigger, it likely has or wants a rifle. So while I can see "small-scale" (20' radius or so) e-clip drainers or some variety of magical-supernatural energy-eating powder which might be dispersed using great subterfuge, "wide-scale" EMP-type blasts would hurt both sides in a conflict nearly as much since it would take rifles away from everyone. Gargoyles are still in a SWELL spot at that point, at least until they discover that missile volleys still work. Poor Gargoyles

[eliakon]

I am not sure where you are going with this?
"If Lazlo came up with a way to take tech out of the equation, it is almost a sure thing the CS would lose."
Duh, and if the CS found a way to take magic out of the equation Lazlo would lose. Any situation that is predicated on "Well first we alter things, so that the situation is not the one that prevails, but one where what I want is the only possible out come." Is not really a discussion....its just as much rampant Plotism as the CS Is accused of possessing. Infact its WORSE. Its saying that the CS has plot armor SO THICK that the only way you can see to pierce it is to handwave away the actual reality by just saying "poof their goes tech" (Nevermind than no one else has gotten rid of tech yet)

Eliakon - There is already a precedent in the megaverse for getting rid of tech. Heck, it is the entire basis for Splicers. The computer created a nano-virus that made it so that any metal infected humans come into contact with becomes a hostile robot. There is also a precedent in real life for devices specifically designed to target and destroy tech. (See: Electromagnetic Pulse.) Thus, it is very conceivable that someone would eventually come up with a way using either magic or technology to stop technology. It is far less likely that the CS could do this against Magic because the CS doesn't exactly have any high level Magic Users who are actively working for them whereas it is very likely that Lazlo, for example, has a few high level weapons engineers on the payroll.

Edit - To add - If someone found a way to simply temporarily drain the charge out of energy cells over a wide area it would work... Heck we know that you can already Psychically take out tech, in some cases over a wider area, or at least greatly hinder tech. Meaning, it is very realistic to assume that sooner or later someone is going to find some way to take tech out of an equation.

I know that is a scary concept for many players of Rifts who love running with mega-tech and never having any issues with it, but having something that can (at least temporarily) fry tech is bound to happen sooner or later.

A few things here
1) Splicers is not 'taking out tech' Its using one form of tech to neutralize another form so that only a third form can be used.
2) I am not aware of a way to psychically take out tech over a wide area
3) I am not sure why you feel the need to make this personal ("this is a scary concept...") nor why you seem to feel that those who do not share your opinion that this sort of thing is 'logical' are some how 'wrong'. Nor do I accept that 'something that can fry tech is bound to happen sooner or later.

The end state of this is that I am not convinced that there is a way to have someone like Lazlo 'win' against the CS with out invoking the massive levels of hand waiving and plot armoring (for them) that you seem to find unpalatable in the CS. This is like saying that Nazi Germany should lose to Luxembourg. Or that because its unrealistic that the lions have been successful in their hunts, that the next time the (lone) zebra should win. There are plenty of plausible ways for the CS to 'lose'...but it should be against a foe on their scale....
(At least in my opinion)

[Killer Cyborg]

If someone found a way to simply temporarily drain the charge out of energy cells over a wide area it would work...

Pft. Just go one better, and design a TW Device that uses Sub-Particle Acceleration to over-charge every E-Clip in the radius, making them explode!

Heck we know that you can already Psychically take out tech, in some cases over a wider area, or at least greatly hinder tech. Meaning, it is very realistic to assume that sooner or later someone is going to find some way to take tech out of an equation.

Uh... you know that same logic applies to magic, right?

[Killer Cyborg]

IF Lazlo has enough time before the CS gets to them, and IF they spend that time wisely, THEN they could pose a legitimate threat.
But that's all stuff for the long-term.
It took Palladium a full decade to get from "The CS is about to attack Tolkeen!" to "The CS IS attacking Tolkeen!"

It'll be another 1d4 decades before the CS gets around to Lazlo. They have other, more immediate fish to fry.

[flatline]

Heck we know that you can already Psychically take out tech, in some cases over a wider area, or at least greatly hinder tech. Meaning, it is very realistic to assume that sooner or later someone is going to find some way to take tech out of an equation.

Uh... you know that same logic applies to magic, right?

What do you have in mind?

--flatline

[HWalsh]

Uh... you know that same logic applies to magic, right?

Yes and no.

An anti-magic blast would be devastating. Though I still think that to do it you would probably have to use magic which the CS can't do.

An anti-tech blast would be a very tactical weapon. If I were to do it, I'd probably set it up in some kind of area, a spell set to go off that covers a specific area... Wait until the CS is in siege mode and then... Blammo... Knock out the tech of the attacking force. Then blitz them with a magical assault and/or a tech based assault from a safe distance.

You can knock out the magic of a magic user and he can still use a laser rifle. It isn't ideal, and he's probably going to die, but he can at least do something. You knock out a CS Grunt's tech and he's a doorstop.

And as you earlier pointed out... The Splicers thing was third party tech that neutralized tech... It would be very possible for a group to modify that kind of tech to simply shut down tech for a period of time. So blammo... Suddenly nothing but TW tech works in an area and the CS caught in that area are defenseless, or, use that to protect your flanks, forcing the enemy into a bottleneck, where they have only one safe way to approach and hammer them ala 300.

The fact is... In my opinion at least... The CS has gone far too long without suffering anything I would call a real defeat and they *are* very much rolling around in plot armor.

To me, at least, North America Rifts would be much more interesting if the CS had actual competition. So there were 3+ super powers of near equal capability to keep the tension. As it is, really, it feels like the CS owns all, can beat anyone they want, and the only things that potentially pose a threat to them are either not moving on them (Atlantis) or most likely would lose (The bugs.)