Rules Question: Life is Cheap

[Mike1975]

Units with Life is Cheap do not generate command points otherwise the Zentraedi would be overloaded with command points. That is also why the Regults can be respawned by a Glaug.

[Forar]

Units with Life is Cheap do not generate command points otherwise the Zentraedi would be overloaded with command points. That is also why the Regults can be respawned by a Glaug.

That is... totally not what he asked.

[Phaze]

Remember... VPs are what you destroy, not what you have at the end of the game.

Units of full battle pods and no Glaug calculate thier victory points just as any other squad even with Life is Cheap.

If the unit started with a Glaug (such as a Attack Squad or Glaug added to an Attrition squad), the pods really have no victory points available if the Glaug is destroyed. That unit becomes worthless from a VP point of view. Time to attack another squad!

The real question is: Does Destroying the Glaug out of a unit gain ALL of the VP for that unit?

My opinion is -- Yes. The Glaug would retain all of the VP of the squad.

However, I will put this on a list of possible FAQ or Errata document for the game and see if I can get an official answer.

[Mike1975]

That is correct, so IF you have an attack squadron and you kill the Glaug you get all the VPs for the entire unit.

[Phaze]

Not only an Attack squad, but also a Attrition squad with a Glaug attached as a special.

Artillery and scouts do not have Life is Cheap...which brings up further scenarios.

You have an Attack squad and two option cards...a scout and light artillery. Total (80+15+25) = 120 points or 12 VPs. So you have 9 Battlepods (Life is Cheap), 1 Glaug, 1 Scout, and 2 light artillery pods (the last four do not have Life is Cheap). 6 VPs would be awarded if any two of the Mecha without Life is Cheap are destroyed, and all 12 VPs if all four of the Mecha without Life is Cheap are destroyed -- Regardless of how many standard Battlepods remain.

This is all IMHO. I have requested an Official answer.

[Pythdamion]

Exactly as Phaze's example. So as a UEDF player kill the Glaugs and win. Fir Zenyradi players always put Glaugs at the rear if a squadron to block LOS and keep them alive longer.

[Phaze]

Keep in mind this is for VP Scenarios ONLY. Other scenarios do not use VPs and are objective based. In these other scenarios, a pod can hold onto an objective or discover 'Loot' and haul it away, making them a whole lot of players on a football field...

15 yard penalty for too many players on the field...First down!

[Maximilian Jenius]

If killing the glaug awards full victory points for the entire squad it is instantly exploitable by players in a competition environment. People will just kill glaugs and never go for the surrounding pods. I would not want to play zentradi in a tournament if this was the case as the UEDF player does not have the same issue.

[Phaze]

If killing the glaug awards full victory points for the entire squad it is instantly exploitable by players in a competition environment. People will just kill glaugs and never go for the surrounding pods. I would not want to play zentradi in a tournament if this was the case as the UEDF player does not have the same issue.

Unless you like running the Glaug out front to be shot at, this just doesn't happen. I have yet had a Glaug go down without at least half of the pods already dead. In one instance, I had the Glaug the only thing standing with more Regults coming on the board edge as reinforcements.

Lets examine how hard it is to kill a Glaug...

Defense score is the highest in the game (tied with the Monster and the Gnerl)...
They save against missles 50% of the time (Anti Missle-Missle systems are 4+)...
Pods can shield them...
Pods act as cover...

So hitting a Glaug in a typical scenario (Glaug with Hard cover bonus): 9...on a D6 with gunnery. Most often a 6 is needed...sometimes a 5 or 6. In very rare cases (crossfire, backfire) a 4,5, or 6.
Then they get to Dodge...
Then they can take half damage by rolling with it and spread that damage to another unit with in 2"

In addition they can bring in reinforcements and recover those pods that were destroyed protecting it.

Also note:
Attaching a Recovery Pod to the unit gives him extended range for recovery AND
a LOS blocking unit AND
a big meat Shield.

I would not describe this as 'instantly exploitable'. Do you have to play some tactics to protect the unit? ...ABSOLUTELY!

But thats the name of the Game!

[Maximilian Jenius]

All you need to negate the Glaugs squad advantage is a well placed body block to land and push it out of close formation. And positioning him behind the squadron isn't going to help that much considering how fast units can move across the board in this game.

Considering a VF-1J has a higher piloting skill than the glaug this is fairly easy to pull off negating its defense score.

[Phaze]

Nice move! Didn't think of the Body Block.

I really haven't seen that kind of scenario possible. Usually the Glaug is wrapped up out of LOS or surrounded just to stop the Crossfire gambit because of the speed thing you just mentioned. You would have to dwindle the pods down to get access to it, but that kinda defeats the purpose of the conversation.

Also, if we take a step back and look at the whole picture...

Headhunting the Glaug in a pod unit is definately a tactic for some games (VP games, used in only 2 of the 6 possible scenerios for tournament play) It will not win every game, and in some cases it could cost you the game by focusing your attention away from the objectives. In the grand scheme of the game, it amounts to niche tactic used only when needed or possible. It is by far not the only tactic available.

Lets also consider that this is not a Glaug vs. VF game. There are plenty of other units to play with and use: Destroids, arty pods, scouts, recovery pods, FPA, MPA, Monsters, Gnerls, Ghosts, etc... Hunting down a Glaug may be tough when being targeted by a squad of FPA and those damn grenade launchers. (I say that with all due respect for the Maltraedi, because they have kicked my &*$ way too many times ).

So...Blanket statements like "Kill the Glaug, win the Game" just is not realistic. As UEDF players in my fourth game at GENCON can attest: They hunted the Glaug, and ended up losing the game...the ONLY unit left on the table: The Glaug.

Edit note: Consider in a 300pt game you could get 3 (maybe 4, but I will have to do the math) Glaugs in your army...

[Phaze]

Just for Fun:http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/Jakovaltrade/headhunting.png



Edit note... Yup...4 glaugs in a 300pt army is possible -- 4 recon squads, 280 pts.

[Maximilian Jenius]

Falconheart that has yet to be determined.

Also, how does this rule interact with the Malcontents? They can take Glaugs and Regults. Yet they do not have the reinforcements ability that the Zentraedi have.

[slaaneshgod]

I agree with phaze's interpretation. They give full vp if glaug is destroyed but regults give none unless they don't come with a glaug and I imagine this is because with a glaug the regults respawn. A little better balancing of the old tyranid without number rule in my opinion.

[Phaze]

There would be no change to the rules. What Mike said:

That is also why the Regults can be respawned by a Glaug.

May or may not be true as the two rules are not linked in any way in the book. It may be an assumption (one that I might have made as well) on Mikes part that for game balance this was done, but there is no connection between the two.

So for the Malcontents, the same Life is Cheap applies.

As stated on the Malcontents Rule Card:

Mecha with the Life is Cheap still do not add to the Command Pool while they remain active on the battlefield...All other aspects of the Life is Cheap ability apply as normal to mecha of the Malcontents with that ability.

[Maximilian Jenius]

The reason I asked is that it is pretty clear that the VP rule for regults is directly due to the zentraedi reinforcement ability. If you didn't do something like this you would have a VP farm everytime someone put a regult squad on the table.

[Phaze]

The reason I asked is that it is pretty clear that the VP rule for regults is directly due to the zentraedi reinforcement ability. If you didn't do something like this you would have a VP farm everytime someone put a regult squad on the table.

How is it clear? I saw no connection.

[Maximilian Jenius]

Maybe I should have stated it is clear to me. The lack of VPs from life is cheap mecha makes sense when you take into account that there could be an endless amount on the table as long as a glaug keeps resupplying them.

This can only happen with a Zentraedi player, so the two rules are very intertwined from where I am sitting. Otherwise the lower point costs of regults would reflect an appropriate reduction in VPs. It is the reinforcements ability that even makes it a game balance issue.

[Phaze]

I could understand that idea, and could have made the same comment that Mike said earlier, but upon review of the rules there is no connection between the two. Hence the same rule applies to the Malcontents.

Good discussion!

[Maximilian Jenius]

After rereading the rules I now believe that killing the glaug alone does not satisfy the requirements of the victory point rule. I now believe you must kill the glaug and enough regults to destroy half the squad to get half the vp, or the glaug and all of the regults for full vp, but you recieve nothing if you do not destroy the glaug.

This is due to the vp wording on life is cheap and the mecha wording on the vp special rule.

[Very Fun One Jr]

After rereading the rules I now believe that killing the glaug alone does not satisfy the requirements of the victory point rule. I now believe you must kill the glaug and enough regults to destroy half the squad to get half the vp, or the glaug and all of the regults for full vp, but you recieve nothing if you do not destroy the glaug.

This is due to the vp wording on life is cheap and the mecha wording on the vp special rule.

I completely agree and your interpretation of the rule is very strong. Phaze, your last post confused me a little. I couldn't tell if you believe the Reinforcements rule does or does not apply to the Malcontents. At the risk of beating a dead horse and restating what you already have I believe that it does not. The Reinforcement ability is entirely separate from the Life is Cheap ability and you acknowledge such so we might be on the same page here. From my point of view the Reinforcement rule that gives a Zentraedi player an additional and unique benefit from the Life is Cheap ability and the Life is Cheap ability does not give a Malcontent player an opportunity to use the Zentraedi Faction ability. That would allow a Malcontent player to benefit from two faction abilities at the same time. If that were the intention then I would expect the Reinforcement ability to also appear on the Malcontent faction card. This makes sense Out-of-Game considering they are refugees and guerillas operating in the wilderness without access to Zentraedi war factories.

[Mike1975]

After rereading the rules I now believe that killing the glaug alone does not satisfy the requirements of the victory point rule. I now believe you must kill the glaug and enough regults to destroy half the squad to get half the vp, or the glaug and all of the regults for full vp, but you recieve nothing if you do not destroy the glaug.

This is due to the vp wording on life is cheap and the mecha wording on the vp special rule.

I completely agree and your interpretation of the rule is very strong. Phaze, your last post confused me a little. I couldn't tell if you believe the Reinforcements rule does or does not apply to the Malcontents. At the risk of beating a dead horse and restating what you already have I believe that it does not. The Reinforcement ability is entirely separate from the Life is Cheap ability and you acknowledge such so we might be on the same page here. From my point of view the Reinforcement rule that gives a Zentraedi player an additional and unique benefit from the Life is Cheap ability and the Life is Cheap ability does not give a Malcontent player an opportunity to use the Zentraedi Faction ability. That would allow a Malcontent player to benefit from two faction abilities at the same time. If that were the intention then I would expect the Reinforcement ability to also appear on the Malcontent faction card. This makes sense Out-of-Game considering they are refugees and guerillas operating in the wilderness without access to Zentraedi war factories.

Now leaving VP's aside for the moment.

Faction abilities and unit abilities are separate. Notice the Glaug does not have the respawn ability. It is the Zen Faction Ability that allows the respawning. Also Malcontents cannot use the Recovery Pod which reinforces that Malcontents cannot respawn. So it is impossible for the Malcontents to use both Faction abilities. The only advantage the malcontents get from using Regults is that they can kill the regults if they are in the way and fire into a melee where the only friendly forces are Regults. Also if the Malcontents have Khyron they still have access to his Backstabber ability.

The Malcontents on the other hand also have a rule that when the ENTIRE squadron, that includes support and special cards, dies, they get a boost equal to the number of units in Command Points the next turn. Life is Cheap is disregarded and is specifically mentioned on the Faction card.

I can see how one can be confused as things are written but the rules seem clear to me on this point when you look at them.

Now to get Victory Points, that is not clear. I would say that if you kill the Glaug but not the rest of the squadron you cannot get the full VP's. Also if you kill all the pods and don't kill the Glaug you do not get the full VP's. Trying to define partial VP's can be problematical since there are so many options for combining support cards and special cards with the squadron card so any definition should really be an all or nothing affair to avoid excessive complication.

[Very Fun One Jr]

I've thought about the VP question overnight and I have to change my mind as the earlier interpretations seem to make more sense. I realized two things: first that, in practical terms, no individual mecha is worth any VPs, 'Life is Cheap' or not. Take a Valkyrie Squadron with a VF-1S attached. You must destroy 3 to get any VPs, so each Valkyrie is worth 0 individually. Thus a Regult Attrition Sqd with Glaug attached, for example, is worth 9 VPs total but each component of the unit, each mecha individually, is also worth 0 VPs. So then what does the 'Life is Cheap' VPs rule even mean? Maximillian's position makes good sense but begs the question how you define half a unit of infinitely respawning mecha?
So, secondly, take the Attrition squad example above. It has 13 mecha, 12 Regults and a Glaug. Let's say over the course of the game you destroy the Glaug and 12 Regults but the unit ends the game with 6 Regults on the board. Have you destroyed over half? The entire unit? Less than half? The Reinforcement rule means that subject units are of potentially infinite size! These two considerations have convinced me that the earlier interpretation makes more sense.

[Mike1975]

After rereading the rules I now believe that killing the glaug alone does not satisfy the requirements of the victory point rule. I now believe you must kill the glaug and enough regults to destroy half the squad to get half the vp, or the glaug and all of the regults for full vp, but you recieve nothing if you do not destroy the glaug.

This is due to the vp wording on life is cheap and the mecha wording on the vp special rule.

I completely agree and your interpretation of the rule is very strong. Phaze, your last post confused me a little. I couldn't tell if you believe the Reinforcements rule does or does not apply to the Malcontents. At the risk of beating a dead horse and restating what you already have I believe that it does not. The Reinforcement ability is entirely separate from the Life is Cheap ability and you acknowledge such so we might be on the same page here. From my point of view the Reinforcement rule that gives a Zentraedi player an additional and unique benefit from the Life is Cheap ability and the Life is Cheap ability does not give a Malcontent player an opportunity to use the Zentraedi Faction ability. That would allow a Malcontent player to benefit from two faction abilities at the same time. If that were the intention then I would expect the Reinforcement ability to also appear on the Malcontent faction card. This makes sense Out-of-Game considering they are refugees and guerillas operating in the wilderness without access to Zentraedi war factories.

Now leaving VP's aside for the moment.

Faction abilities and unit abilities are separate. Notice the Glaug does not have the respawn ability. It is the Zen Faction Ability that allows the respawning. Also Malcontents cannot use the Recovery Pod which reinforces that Malcontents cannot respawn. So it is impossible for the Malcontents to use both Faction abilities. The only advantage the malcontents get from using Regults is that they can kill the regults if they are in the way and fire into a melee where the only friendly forces are Regults. Also if the Malcontents have Khyron they still have access to his Backstabber ability.

The Malcontents on the other hand also have a rule that when the ENTIRE squadron, that includes support and special cards, dies, they get a boost equal to the number of units in Command Points the next turn. Life is Cheap is disregarded and is specifically mentioned on the Faction card.

I can see how one can be confused as things are written but the rules seem clear to me on this point when you look at them.

Now to get Victory Points, that is not clear. I would say that if you kill the Glaug but not the rest of the squadron you cannot get the full VP's. Also if you kill all the pods and don't kill the Glaug you do not get the full VP's. Trying to define partial VP's can be problematical since there are so many options for combining support cards and special cards with the squadron card so any definition should really be an all or nothing affair to avoid excessive complication.

Agreed, VP's should be all or nothing.

[Maximilian Jenius]

In the presented scenario they would recieve half VPs. The glaug is the only mecha that matters as life is cheap, but you still have to destroy half the squad after the glaug to gain any VPs.

This actually makes sense when you take into account the infinite spawning pods in my opinion. It is treated the same way as any other squad with the exception of needing to kill the glaug.

Supporting evidence is found in the attrition squad where there is no respawning or VPs to be had at all without a glaug present in the squad.

[Very Fun One Jr]

In the presented scenario they would recieve half VPs. The glaug is the only mecha that matters as life is cheap, but you still have to destroy half the squad after the glaug to gain any VPs.

This actually makes sense when you take into account the infinite spawning pods in my opinion. It is treated the same way as any other squad with the exception of needing to kill the glaug.

Supporting evidence is found in the attrition squad where there is no respawning or VPs to be had at all without a glaug present in the squad.

To avoid scrolling to the post allow me to restate the unit and scenario for anybody following along: A Zentraedi Attrition Squadron with an attached Glaug, 13 mecha total, loses 13 models (including the Glaug) during a game but ends with 6 Regults on the board.
Alright, so the question is is all about how you determined that half of the unit was destroyed to get the VPs. Is it based on what's left on the table in relation to starting unit size? Then bear in mind that they have lost 13 models over the course of the game, the total of the unit as purchased, including the Glaug. The Reinforcements do not negate the casualties already inflicted, or do they? I don't know. Let's change it to say that you have lost 25 Regults and the Glaug but there are 7 Regults left on the board (Yes, I know it's improbable but I'm trying to make a point here). Does your opponent then get 0 VPs even though you have lost the equivalent of the entire unit twice over?

[glitterboy2098]

in most other games where this kind of mechanic shows up, in my experiance, the reinforcements would count as a seperate unit for victory conditions. since regular battlepods don't count for VP's, this wouldn't effect the total VP's possible from the zent force.. but would simplify figuring the VP's from killing the original attrition squadron.

[Maximilian Jenius]

I believe in your revised scenario that the opponent would receive 0 vp.

Think of it this way, the glaug is the boss and the regults are adds. Until you kill the boss and burn at least half of the remaining squad down you get nothing for your efforts. The reinforcements do not add any vp. You could kill 50 and as long as the glaug lived it would mean nothing. If more than half of the original squad is still on the table at the end you get 0 vp.

[Phaze]

If more than half of the original squad is still on the table at the end you get 0 vp.

That would make record keeping difficult and cumbersome. Which ones are the originals and which ones are not? I stand by my original opinion because as it states on page 26: "They also do not count while determining Victory Points at the end of the game if there was a Glaug (or Glaug-Eldare) included in their squadron in army construction."

They do not count. Life is Cheap wipes the VP from the pods. Hence, by deduction, the total VP of the unit resides in the units that do not have Life is Cheap (i.e. the Glaug, artillery pods, recon pod, recovery pod, or other mecha.) so the following scenario still stands as stated previously:

You have an Attack squad and two option cards...a scout and light artillery. Total (80+15+25) = 120 points or 12 VPs. So you have 9 Battlepods (Life is Cheap), 1 Glaug, 1 Scout, and 2 light artillery pods (the last four do not have Life is Cheap). 6 VPs would be awarded if any two of the Mecha without Life is Cheap are destroyed, and all 12 VPs if all four of the Mecha without Life is Cheap are destroyed -- Regardless of how many standard Battlepods remain.

And since there is nothing in the rules that ties Life is Cheap with the Reinforcements rule of the Zents, the Malcontents do not get reinforced and VPs are calculated based on the number of mecha that do not have Life is Cheap in the squad.

Supporting evidence is found in the attrition squad where there is no respawning or VPs to be had at all without a glaug present in the squad.

I disagree. Previous quote of page 26... 'if there was a Glaug included in their squadron in army construction.' so the attrition squad would calculate their VP as normal...UNLESS you attach a Glaug as a special.

[Maximilian Jenius]

Phaze how are you coming to the conclusion that the attrition squadron calculates vp as normal when it only has life is cheap mecha in it (which do not count for vp)?

[Phaze]

Page 26... "They do not count while determining victory points at the end of the game if there was a Glaug (or Glaug-Eldare) included in their squadron in army construction."

So any unit that has regular pods in it WITHOUT a Glaug award VPs as normal.

You can't just blanket all pods and their VPs.

[Maximilian Jenius]

Oh gotcha! I forgot that line. So yeah, VPs as normal for the attrition squad. That makes it a terrible choice if you end up in a VP match!

[Phaze]

Cool!

But you could bolster the unit with a scout pod and arty pods and make them quite effective. Alone, an attrition squad is aptly named.

[Very Fun One Jr]

How about adding Grell in a Regult? He's subject to Life is Cheap so is not considered for VPs, right? An Attrition Squadron, 2 Regult Squads and Grell gives you 24 pods and 0 VPs.

[Maximilian Jenius]

If it is just regults in the squad the squad still has VPs. I forgot the glaug needing to be there to trigger the life is cheap exception earlier in the post. Sorry for the confusion.

[slaaneshgod]

How about adding Grell in a Regult? He's subject to Life is Cheap so is not considered for VPs, right? An Attrition Squadron, 2 Regult Squads and Grell gives you 24 pods and 0 VPs.

I would say the squad is worth full vps because the rule in the book states that they are no vp if there is a glaug or glaug eldare in the squad they dont give vp and in this case there is neither in the squad.

[Phaze]

Just to clear things up.. ALL squads have VPs. VPs are calculated by the point cost of the unit, not what is in the unit. Its a matter of when those points are awarded to the opposing player.

IF the squad has a Glaug AND IF the squad have other units with 'Life is Cheap' during construction (i.e. Regular Battlepods, Zent Infantry), VPs are awarded based on the number of units that DO NOT have 'Life is Cheap' in that squad. Malcontents included.

All other squads award VPs as normal.

Are we in agreement?

[Axoid]

Great way to summarize how VPs work. It makes sense to me now.

[Veritas]

How does it work? Easy as pie is how it works!

VP = Points value of the entire squadron

- [14 LIC and/or normal models] = 1/2 VP when any 7 dead, full VP when all dead
- [9 LIC models, 1 Glaug/Eldare, 4 normal models] = 1/2 VP when any 3 of non-LIC models dead, full VP when all non-LIC models dead. LIC models completely ignored.

[Everyman]

Lets examine how hard it is to kill a Glaug...

Defense score is the highest in the game (tied with the Monster and the Gnerl)...
They save against missles 50% of the time (Anti Missle-Missle systems are 4+)...
Pods can shield them...
Pods act as cover...

So hitting a Glaug in a typical scenario (Glaug with Hard cover bonus): 9...on a D6 with gunnery. Most often a 6 is needed...sometimes a 5 or 6. In very rare cases (crossfire, backfire) a 4,5, or 6.
Then they get to Dodge...
Then they can take half damage by rolling with it and spread that damage to another unit with in 2"

In addition they can bring in reinforcements and recover those pods that were destroyed protecting it.

Also note:
Attaching a Recovery Pod to the unit gives him extended range for recovery AND
a LOS blocking unit AND
a big meat Shield.

I would not describe this as 'instantly exploitable'. Do you have to play some tactics to protect the unit? ...ABSOLUTELY!

But thats the name of the Game!

I am curious as to where it says that mecha in the same squad can act as cover for the Glaug. In fact, on page 17 under the cover rules it implies the exact opposite. It lists under hard cover "mecha of a different squadron than the target".

[Mike1975]

If mecha could not act as cover they could arguable not block LOS either. They do block LOS though. That is stated. If they did not provide cover then the Glaug would be that much more vulnerable to attack. I think once the official errata comes out this will have been addressed.

[Phaze]

I am curious as to where it says that mecha in the same squad can act as cover for the Glaug. In fact, on page 17 under the cover rules it implies the exact opposite. It lists under hard cover "mecha of a different squadron than the target".

Good examination of the rules, and after an exhaustive search, I can't find any. My personal opinion is that it should have read "mecha of a different squadron than the ATTACKER", as mecha from the same squadron don't block LOS.

As Mike said... Errata.