Reincarnated Enlightened Immortals vs. pre-awakening Amnesia

[Tor]

So when an EI dies they come back as a fetus (at least within humans and possibly within other races since humans are not actually specified as necessary in the EI description) they lack memories of their past existence, but eventually get them back as a big puberty party...

What I am wondering is, what happens if someone mind-wipes an Enlightened Immortal before killing them? Does that erase all their memories and OCC and skills and martial arts powers and all that stuff permanently? Or does the puberty-process after rebirth bring them back?

Another thing I'm wondering about is what happens if an EI, before their memories of pre-life awaken, is subject to Mind Wipe or other similar processes that compromise the memory (being made into a Biotic or Guardian against your will, opting to become a Cosmo-Knight or Apok, being seduced into becoming a Corrupt or Reaper, etc)

Does not being aware of a past life's memories protect it from the memory-wiping aspect of these character classes? Is it just the fledgling memories of this new life that get torn into tatters? Or do they still get wiped out even though they are submerged?

[eliakon]

So when an EI dies they come back as a fetus (at least within humans and possibly within other races since humans are not actually specified as necessary in the EI description) they lack memories of their past existence, but eventually get them back as a big puberty party...

What I am wondering is, what happens if someone mind-wipes an Enlightened Immortal before killing them? Does that erase all their memories and OCC and skills and martial arts powers and all that stuff permanently? Or does the puberty-process after rebirth bring them back?

Another thing I'm wondering about is what happens if an EI, before their memories of pre-life awaken, is subject to Mind Wipe or other similar processes that compromise the memory (being made into a Biotic or Guardian against your will, opting to become a Cosmo-Knight or Apok, being seduced into becoming a Corrupt or Reaper, etc)

Does not being aware of a past life's memories protect it from the memory-wiping aspect of these character classes? Is it just the fledgling memories of this new life that get torn into tatters? Or do they still get wiped out even though they are submerged?

A few things here.
I am not sure that the EI could be turned into a Cosmo-Knight, Apok, Etc. They would appear to be an EI, even if they don't remember it.
As for a mind wipe. I do not think that a mindwipe could erase the past life data (that appears to be a function of their 'soul', not their 'mind') It might be able to erase the block of the current life though. (Though I would, personally, say that they are immune to that)

[drewkitty ~..~]

Mind wipe...would only effect the physical body of the time.

The dice gods would not let them become anything else.

[Tor]

Even if we assume the Cosmic Forge has the ability to ferret out EIs, I am not sure why they would not select them.

EIs are not supernatural beings so they should be able to become Cosmo-Knights.

That said, Cosmo-Knights automatically fall if they become Taoist-aligned, which is probably the most popular alignment for EIs to gravitate to, so it could be a recipe-in-the-making for Fallen Knights, so that could be one reason the Forge might opt to skip over them.

Some EIs can be Principled or Scrupulous though, and seem like they would be prime Cosmo-Knight candidates. Very prone to self-sacrifice if they know they can be born again if they die in the field.

So I think we agree that current-life memories get wiped but regarding past-life memories there are 2 contexts that need to be clarified...

1) past life memories not yet remembered (EI is too young, only remembers current life)
2) past life memories now remembered (EI has regained them)

In which 1, or both, should past-life memories be immune.

Do we figure something like... whatever current-life memories are at the time of death get bonded to the soul and become unwipeable at that point...

*now imagining EI exclaiming they never want to forget this magical moment and committing suicide to soul-lock the memory to prevent erasure*

[drewkitty ~..~]

Still is of the opinion that the universe would prevent the reborn En. Imm. from being fundamentally changed to anything but a En. Imm. once they have achieved an En. Imm. state.

While, Yes, all this talk about possibility is just ideas that run contrary to core idea of the En. Imm., the idea that the reborn En. Imm. always turns into her/his old self.

[eliakon]

Even if we assume the Cosmic Forge has the ability to ferret out EIs, I am not sure why they would not select them.

EIs are not supernatural beings so they should be able to become Cosmo-Knights.

That said, Cosmo-Knights automatically fall if they become Taoist-aligned, which is probably the most popular alignment for EIs to gravitate to, so it could be a recipe-in-the-making for Fallen Knights, so that could be one reason the Forge might opt to skip over them.

Some EIs can be Principled or Scrupulous though, and seem like they would be prime Cosmo-Knight candidates. Very prone to self-sacrifice if they know they can be born again if they die in the field.

So I think we agree that current-life memories get wiped but regarding past-life memories there are 2 contexts that need to be clarified...

1) past life memories not yet remembered (EI is too young, only remembers current life)
2) past life memories now remembered (EI has regained them)

In which 1, or both, should past-life memories be immune.

Do we figure something like... whatever current-life memories are at the time of death get bonded to the soul and become unwipeable at that point...

*now imagining EI exclaiming they never want to forget this magical moment and committing suicide to soul-lock the memory to prevent erasure*

I am not sure that the EI need to be 'ferreted out'. I think that the comment about being recognized as one in the description implies that once you become an EI its a permanent state change. The various refinements come and go but once you are an EI you are forever Enlightened. And THAT state of Enlightenment is what I would think would prevent you from becoming something else later.

And I would be of the opinion that ALL memories are bonded to the soul. A mind wipe would be like a refinement, making that body forget. But the soul would still remember. When they are reborn again, they will remember both the wiped memories, and the wiping. (And yes this does mean that if you wipe a EI as a child, when they 'remember' later, they would get back all the wiped memories) In my opinion it will take far more than a simple psionic power to affect an Enlightened Soul.

An EI would not become a Cosmo-Knight before rebirth, in my opinion, because they can't give a true honest answer about their willingness to serve the Forge. And I do not think the Forge would be willing to take a Knight that can't give a true, honest, informed answer. And afterwards....I do not see any EI agreeing to become a Knight. (I am not even sure that it would be possible to remake them on the level needed.)

[fbdaury]

Going by how the Enlightened Immortals react when they finally visit the Court of the Jade Emperor and are offered a place in the celestial bureaucracy, I get the impression any EI offered Knighthood by the Cosmic Forge would not only refuse but would try to pull off some sort of pranking of the Forge in the process, but that's just how I read it.

[Aku-Arkaine]

EIs are not supernatural beings so they should be able to become Cosmo-Knights.

The first iteration of the conversion book, plus articles from the Rifter and the novels, all have left me with the impression that they are supernatural beings.

[Tor]

of the opinion that the universe would prevent the reborn En. Imm. from being fundamentally changed to anything but a En. Imm. once they have achieved an En. Imm. state.

How would 'the universe' prevent this change?

Also how is this something else? A Cosmo-Knight EI would still be an EI so they would not be losing those abilities.

all this talk about possibility is just ideas that run contrary to core idea of the En. Imm., the idea that the reborn En. Imm. always turns into her/his old self.

Not sure that's necessarily true. If an EI was principled in their first life and anarchist during the childhood of their second life, perhaps when their memories return, since they do not lose the memories of their new life, they reach a compromise of scrupulous when considering and consolidating the morals of both lives. I expect the first life, being longer and more-informed, would have a stronger influence on shaping them, but just as alignments can naturally change over time, the life spent in a new mind is part of that time.

The always-return thing is also not fixed... Enlightened Immortals are not immune to Mind-Wiping or Amnesia, and have no ability to get those memories back within a lifetime. The big question is when a lifetime ends, if at that point they could get back the lost memories, or if they only retain memories they had at death (if only death-possessed memories then mind-wiping an EI before killing them might possibly prevent reincarnation).

I am not sure that the EI need to be 'ferreted out'. I think that the comment about being recognized as one in the description implies that once you become an EI its a permanent state change. The various refinements come and go but once you are an EI you are forever Enlightened. And THAT state of Enlightenment is what I would think would prevent you from becoming something else later.

Why would the SoE prevent someone from gaining new OCCs like Cosmo-Knight or from being physically transformed?

I would be of the opinion that ALL memories are bonded to the soul. A mind wipe would be like a refinement, making that body forget. But the soul would still remember. When they are reborn again, they will remember both the wiped memories, and the wiping. (And yes this does mean that if you wipe a EI as a child, when they 'remember' later, they would get back all the wiped memories)

So if I follow correctly, would you agree with this scenario?

1) become Enlightened Immortal, get stomped on by a dragon
2) be reborn in Poland, live in peace for 5 years
3) be kidnapped by angel of Death, she cackles maniacally as she steals your kidney and you are awake during the surgery and witness her stealing it from you, and giving it to Angel of Vengeance to play with
4) Angel of Death gets a psychic minion to mind-wipe you, now you do not know why you are missing a kidney
5) 15 years pass, you are 20 years old, and your memories gradually came back to you (presumably happens, if perhaps taking a bit on the longer side, even if no other EIs mentor you along)
6) when the last piece comes back, suddenly, you remember who took your kidney?

An EI would not become a Cosmo-Knight before rebirth, in my opinion, because they can't give a true honest answer about their willingness to serve the Forge.

Why would their answer be honest? Sure, they may have a change of heart at a later time as they gain new information (even if that new information is actually old info) but that is the case for anyone. It's not as if a Cosmo-Knight agreement is an eternal one, if that were the case then they could never Fall, being forever pre-destined to toe the line.

I do not think the Forge would be willing to take a Knight that can't give a true, honest, informed answer.

I think we give the Forge too much credit. It is not a stickler for informed consent. If it were, it would not give Cosmo-Knights amnesia as soon as they did consent. I'm betting misgivings about amnesia (and there is no indication the Forge warns potential Cosmo-Knights about the amnesia and skill loss they will suffer) contribute to the growing ranks of Fallen Knights.

I do not see any EI agreeing to become a Knight. (I am not even sure that it would be possible to remake them on the level needed.)

If Forge-amnesia could permanently wipe out the previous memories, skills and OCC(s) of an Enlightened Immortal, then I for sure agree they would not do so. That said... if memories came back the next re-spawn and the EI figured they would probably eventually die in service as a Cosmo-Knight, they might be willing to risk it for the greater good.

Being forever reborn in mortal wombs is no longer an advantage if a genocidal army wiped out all womb-having species, for example. It is in prolonged EI interest to keep mortals alive in the Megaverse for so long as they wish to be able to reincarnate. Plus that whole, a lot of them being good-aligned and wanting to help others too, I guess.

Going by how the Enlightened Immortals react when they finally visit the Court of the Jade Emperor and are offered a place in the celestial bureaucracy, I get the impression any EI offered Knighthood by the Cosmic Forge would not only refuse but would try to pull off some sort of pranking of the Forge in the process, but that's just how I read it.

The Jade Court seems a lot more boring and bureaucratic and full of itself though... Cosmo-Knights are forbidden to have such roles of authority and command over others so they're a whole new flavor. Plus... if you want to prank the Forge you have to get to know it first, and becoming a Cosmo-Knight would be a great way to do that.

A Taoist could not retain his alignment and become a knight though, he would fall, so any of those of the mind to focus on pranks instead of serving the good could not align-change to become a knight to begin with.

The first iteration of the conversion book, plus articles from the Rifter and the novels, all have left me with the impression that they are supernatural beings.

RCBp49 only discusses N&SS, it does not address any Mystic China conversions. The revised version moves this to page 51 but I can still only see main-book N&SS stuff there. If CB1 (original or revised) or any conversion book, or any other canon book at all, discusses Enlightened Immortals or ANYTHING from Mystic China, I would love a page number, because it seems altogether ignored.

The Rifter 3 article with Mystic China conversions for Rifts (page 44) is non-canon, per viewtopic.php?f=4&t=77496 see how it lacks an <OFFICIAL> tag like the Xiticix article following it has.

I am in the dark about what the novels say on the subject, was not aware EIs were even in them, sounds interesting. Does anyone know which of the bodies of work listed at https://palladium-store.com/1001/category/Novels.html refer to Enlightened Immortals? Far as I can tell there is..

1) the Boom/Web/Awakenings trilogy by Chilson
2) Tales of the Chi-Town Burbs (various authors, if this, please specify which author/chapter)
3) Machinations of Doom by Perez
4) Warpath by Hansen
5) Path of the Storm by Clements

[drewkitty ~..~]

of the opinion that the universe would prevent the reborn En. Imm. from being fundamentally changed to anything but a En. Imm. once they have achieved an En. Imm. state.

How would 'the universe' prevent this change?

Also how is this something else? A Cosmo-Knight EI would still be an EI so they would not be losing those abilities.

“Luminous beings are we…not this crude matter.”

~By being so it would not happen. Or By being so the concept would never be able to exist within in it.
~Yep, the Cosmo Knight empowerment changes whoever accepts it down to their core of being/soul/life, which is why, even if it was possible, if they were presented with the choice the E.I's self will reject it due to it already knows it is as best as they can be.

[eliakon]

I am not sure that the EI need to be 'ferreted out'. I think that the comment about being recognized as one in the description implies that once you become an EI its a permanent state change. The various refinements come and go but once you are an EI you are forever Enlightened. And THAT state of Enlightenment is what I would think would prevent you from becoming something else later.

Why would the SoE prevent someone from gaining new OCCs like Cosmo-Knight or from being physically transformed?

Because being a Cosmo-Knight is not just an OCC. You can get new OCCs (In fact I would assume that IE's collect OCCs). Becoming a Cosmo-Knight explicitly requires that you be remade in such a way that you lose any and all abilities you had before. Since the state of being an EI provides some abilities, it would require being remade in such a way that they LOSE their EI status to become a Cosmo-Knight. That is what I am not sure that can be done.

I would be of the opinion that ALL memories are bonded to the soul. A mind wipe would be like a refinement, making that body forget. But the soul would still remember. When they are reborn again, they will remember both the wiped memories, and the wiping. (And yes this does mean that if you wipe a EI as a child, when they 'remember' later, they would get back all the wiped memories)

So if I follow correctly, would you agree with this scenario?

1) become Enlightened Immortal, get stomped on by a dragon
2) be reborn in Poland, live in peace for 5 years
3) be kidnapped by angel of Death, she cackles maniacally as she steals your kidney and you are awake during the surgery and witness her stealing it from you, and giving it to Angel of Vengeance to play with
4) Angel of Death gets a psychic minion to mind-wipe you, now you do not know why you are missing a kidney
5) 15 years pass, you are 20 years old, and your memories gradually came back to you (presumably happens, if perhaps taking a bit on the longer side, even if no other EIs mentor you along)
6) when the last piece comes back, suddenly, you remember who took your kidney?

Yes, exactly. This is why you should be careful with an EI....because in the above scenario the Angel's have just made a very dangerous enemy.

An EI would not become a Cosmo-Knight before rebirth, in my opinion, because they can't give a true honest answer about their willingness to serve the Forge.

Why would their answer be honest? Sure, they may have a change of heart at a later time as they gain new information (even if that new information is actually old info) but that is the case for anyone. It's not as if a Cosmo-Knight agreement is an eternal one, if that were the case then they could never Fall, being forever pre-destined to toe the line.

Because the person making the 'choice' is not the full EI, but just a portion of the EI. And that portion, IMHO, is not going to be able to speak for the whole. (and since the whole is what would be obliterated in the transformation.....)

I do not think the Forge would be willing to take a Knight that can't give a true, honest, informed answer.

I think we give the Forge too much credit. It is not a stickler for informed consent. If it were, it would not give Cosmo-Knights amnesia as soon as they did consent. I'm betting misgivings about amnesia (and there is no indication the Forge warns potential Cosmo-Knights about the amnesia and skill loss they will suffer) contribute to the growing ranks of Fallen Knights.

I don't think that a force of Good (as Palladium defines it) is going to find it acceptable to trick people either. Or put another way, if there is no need for informed consent....then why does it ask in the first place? Why doesn't it just turn people into knights? Also your beliefs about the matter are not a basis for making a canon argument. There is nothing in the book that says that they are NOT told about it, nor that they feel 'tricked', so speculation that this is so, and thus is a reason to assume that the Forge is willing to trick people is both unwarranted, and circular.

I do not see any EI agreeing to become a Knight. (I am not even sure that it would be possible to remake them on the level needed.)

If Forge-amnesia could permanently wipe out the previous memories, skills and OCC(s) of an Enlightened Immortal, then I for sure agree they would not do so. That said... if memories came back the next re-spawn and the EI figured they would probably eventually die in service as a Cosmo-Knight, they might be willing to risk it for the greater good.

As I said before, the transformation would by necessity entail undoing what ever it is that makes them an EI. So yes, this is a 'permanently wipe out' level change. In fact its more than just that. Its agreeing to have all that they have done be undone, to start their souls journey all over again. Assuming that such a thing could be done, I do not see any EI agreeing to it.

Being forever reborn in mortal wombs is no longer an advantage if a genocidal army wiped out all womb-having species, for example. It is in prolonged EI interest to keep mortals alive in the Megaverse for so long as they wish to be able to reincarnate. Plus that whole, a lot of them being good-aligned and wanting to help others too, I guess.

I can't think of any reason that an EI would be prevented from helping out as they are. They already have their array of martial arts abilities, mundane skills, any mastered magic, their current refinements etc. If all of that is not sufficient to help, how would trading away all of that, forever, to become a mere 1st level Cosmo-Knight (which to be frank anyone with a pure heart can do) be helpful? To be honest really, wouldn't it be Unhelpful to take a rare, super powerful, highly skilled force of good....and turn them into a comparatively weak and clueless foot soldier?

[drewkitty ~..~]

level 5 edit

[eliakon]

<This post has been redacted at the order of the Peoples Glorious Editorial Redaction Board>

[The Beast]

Wouldn't an EI consider CK-conversion as a false path?

[Nightmask]

Wouldn't an EI consider CK-conversion as a false path?

Given it's not a path to Immortality or enlightenment no, just as they wouldn't consider other super-human augmentation as a false path, it's not a path at all. A false path would present itself as a means to immortality and enlightenment but not actually provide it like with the alchemical immortal.

[eliakon]

Wouldn't an EI consider CK-conversion as a false path?

At best an EI might consider this to be similar to the Damned Immortal false path. (And that's being charitable) A person is sacrificing their soul to a cosmic force, being remade as something else, and abandoning any and all work they have already achieved on the True path for the transient power of that force. And then when they die, well at best when they die they get to start over again in a new life, from scratch. At worst its quite possible that Cosmo-knights just die, and are not reincarnated! (due to the alteration of their souls)

[The Beast]

To further elaborate on why I said that an EI might consider CK-conversion as a false path, I'd like to point out that page 101 of DB2 says that the life span can potentially be millennia. Page 114 of MC states that out of all the paths of immortality in that book, only those that do so through enlightenment gain immortality with the permission of the Heavenly Court of the Jade Emperor. The other paths only delay the inevitable, and tick of the demon lords waiting for their now late arrival to the afterlife. The EI gain their immortality through Internal Alchemy, not an outside source of power, such as the Cosmic Forge.

On the other hand, while not a true path of immortality, it could be argued that the Forge sends in a waiver to the Heavenly Court that allows the Knights to postpone their appointment time in the afterlife. Either way, someone undergoing a CK-conversion wouldn't remember anything about being an EI, and personally, I'd consider it to be a step down, especially if your GM allows the Rifter article on them in the game.

[Tor]

“Luminous beings are we…not this crude matter.”

~By being so it would not happen. Or By being so the concept would never be able to exist within in it.
~Yep, the Cosmo Knight empowerment changes whoever accepts it down to their core of being/soul/life, which is why, even if it was possible, if they were presented with the choice the E.I's self will reject it due to it already knows it is as best as they can be.

I do not remember the quote in MC, if we are going to supplement MC with other EI myths and regard them as canon I guess that could change matters.

There are numerous ways for a CosmoK EnI to occur which fall outside your example.
1) cosmo-knight attains enlightenment
2) fully-aware immortal becomes cosmo-knight
3) reborn-unaware immortal becomes cosmo-knight

EIs are not arrogantly of the opinion that they are -the best-, they are fully capable of studying other fields. We should not confuse EIs with Hsien Hsia fanatics, which only compose a portion of them.

being a Cosmo-Knight is not just an OCC. You can get new OCCs (In fact I would assume that IE's collect OCCs). Becoming a Cosmo-Knight explicitly requires that you be remade in such a way that you lose any and all abilities you had before.

I am aware that it does a memory-wipe, please don't preach to me what I have already spoken about.

The issue is:
1) does memory-wiping make you forget the thing that comes back in spite of rebirth-wipe?
2) can a CosmoK be enlightened

Since the state of being an EI provides some abilities, it would require being remade in such a way that they LOSE their EI status to become a Cosmo-Knight. That is what I am not sure that can be done.

Becoming a Cosmo-Knight does not necessarily wipe out all memories or abilities, all we know it that you don't have your previous OCC skills, you do not need OCC skill to be an enlightened immortal, just the memory of becoming one with the Tao, which is how you see the true state of the universe.

Yes, exactly. This is why you should be careful with an EI....because in the above scenario the Angel's have just made a very dangerous enemy.

I guess I just wonder, if they have such an ability, why it would not be elaborated on more explicitly.

In this case, if you can remember kidney-stomping post-Mind-Wipe via rebirth... then a Cosmic Forge memory wipe should be a sinch too.

Because the person making the 'choice' is not the full EI, but just a portion of the EI. And that portion, IMHO, is not going to be able to speak for the whole. (and since the whole is what would be obliterated in the transformation.....)

There is no indication that the Forge cares about this type of stuff. People's personalities will always change over time. EIs just change more dramatically since they gain a past life's memories in addition to new ones. They remember already-read books instead of new books.

It's not as if the Cosmic Forge will avoid recruiting an amnesiac, no such restrictions exist, I think Forgetful Jones could become a Cosmo-Knight, he is a good person.

I don't think that a force of Good (as Palladium defines it) is going to find it acceptable to trick people either.

Just because good-aligned characters serve you does not mean you are a good being. Case in point: the war chief of House Shiva is Principled. I don't think of the Forge that way, is it called that? Even if something is a force of/for good, well, that still leaves a lot of flexibility for ethics, like them 'scrupulous with twisted perceptions' villains.

if there is no need for informed consent....then why does it ask in the first place? Why doesn't it just turn people into knights?

To keep a good rapport, and plausible deniability. Even if Cosmo-Knights lose all their old skills, they probably do keep some memories, and if the Forge forced itself on people (like perhaps what the Light may do to Guardians) that could lead to a lot more falling.

Since the Forge does not explicitly warn Knights about the memory loss, that probably explains why so many do fall.

Also your beliefs about the matter are not a basis for making a canon argument. There is nothing in the book that says that they are NOT told about it

We are told what they are told, so I think it reasonable to believe that anything not mentioned, they are not told about.

nor that they feel 'tricked', so speculation that this is so, and thus is a reason to assume that the Forge is willing to trick people is both unwarranted, and circular.

It's a possibility, is all I am pointing out.

What's the alternative explanation for all the knights who fall? People just suck?

the transformation would by necessity entail undoing what ever it is that makes them an EI. So yes, this is a 'permanently wipe out' level change.

I don't understand how this works, you said earlier that rebirth would bring back mind-wiped data like "who took my kidney" so why wouldn't it bring back the pre-Cosmo-Knight life?

its more than just that. Its agreeing to have all that they have done be undone, to start their souls journey all over again. Assuming that such a thing could be done, I do not see any EI agreeing to it.

I think you are inflating the Cosmo-Knight transformation a tad. Losing all your old skills doesn't mean losing the entirety which composes your soul.

If the transformation utterly annihilated your past self, it is effectively murder or suicide, and who you were would have no impact on the knight you would become, that's pretty dark... which makes me like it, and helps solidifies the Forge as something to be wary of, a Kevorkian who sacrifices things to make soldiers, for the greater good, of course.

I can't think of any reason that an EI would be prevented from helping out as they are. They already have their array of martial arts abilities, mundane skills, any mastered magic, their current refinements etc.

Some will have that or eventually get it, sure, but being a Cosmo-Knight would be a huge asset too.

Let's keep in mind that even a level 1 Tai-Chi guy can get Discorporate and immortalize their soul though

If all of that is not sufficient to help, how would trading away all of that, forever, to become a mere 1st level Cosmo-Knight (which to be frank anyone with a pure heart can do) be helpful? To be honest really, wouldn't it be Unhelpful to take a rare, super powerful, highly skilled force of good....and turn them into a comparatively weak and clueless foot soldier?

Meh, I don't think Enlightened Immortas are all as pretty as that. The kind who are super-refined would be in the minority, most new ones would be stalling since the beings you need to befriend to advance to higher stages have all vanished somewhere. Most probably haven't even refined the internal elixer yet to stop aging, internal alchemy being a hidden art (and having to learn all the Zenjorike)

I'm also not sure why you would permanently (for all lifetimes) lose pre CosmoK knowledge, you gave me the impression with the kidney example that you thought mind-wipe or amnesia stuff would come back when you regain previous-life memories in your new life's puberty.

Wouldn't an EI consider CK-conversion as a false path?

Only if you rely on that exclusively for immortality. If you already have an immortal soul, being a Cosmo-Knight would probably make each lifetime a more durable thing though. Nothing really stops an enlightened immortal from experimenting with the benefits of false paths. They could opt to become Heartless too, if the wanted. Due to the good alignments they probably steer clear of Ginseng-rape though.

The EI gain their immortality through Internal Alchemy, not an outside source of power, such as the Cosmic Forge.

Internal Alchemy is only the path they take to physical immortality, which is a side-pursuit.

The primary aspect of immortality is a soul which is reborn, which happens BEFORE the internal alchemy. Internal alchemy is a subsequent step.

This gets confused a bit because people sometimes skip the intro and think that rebirth comes from the 1st refinement of the elixir, but it doesn't. It's just put there because it's something a 1st-refined would have.

The first refinement simply stops the body from dying of old age, far as I know.

someone undergoing a CK-conversion wouldn't remember anything about being an EI

I don't agree, forgetting how to drive a car doesn't mean you forget how beautiful a rainbow is. Forgetting how to operate a computer doesn't mean you forget you are an Englishman. Cosmo-Knights lose skills, they don't explicitly get TOTAL amnesia of all previous things, like having seen the true state of the universe. They might forget how to Discorporate, but they could still remember what they saw the times they did so.

[eliakon]

I think we should go back and look at the Cosmo-Knight, in detail. This will help answer many of your comments (many of which are the same thing said over and over)
Phase word pg 99 "Their bodies and souls are seared and reshaped by cosmic forces. When they emerge, they are are transformed by their experience."
What does this mean? What does this do? The next section tells us. It turns them body and soul into a cosmoknight. They become a new RCC. They have EVERYTHING about them remade. EVERYTHING. They have new stats, new skills, new powers, new memories, new everything. And in the process they lose everything they had before, unless it is explicitly said to be kept. How do we know that? Because some things ARE said to be kept. That means that we can infer that the author knew what was kept and what was discarded.
All the abilities, Knoweldge, powers, ect of an EI are things that are not on the short list of 'things kept' (stats, appearance) Thus when their soul was remade, the new soul doesn't have them.
Now why would an EI step down, undue their Enlightenment, and return to being mere mortal? These are people that laugh at gods and demons, that respect no power other than that of moral wisdom and your asking why they would take temporary temporal power in exchange for giving up true wisdom?
As for the separate question of if a CK could become enlightened. Yes, and no. A knight could become enlightened, but in doing so would become Taoist, and fall. The question of what happens when THEY die is an interesting one since they are technically a member of a race that does not reproduce. They are of the race Cosmo-Knight....perhaps they will simply discorporate.

[The Beast]

I think we should go back and look at the Cosmo-Knight, in detail. This will help answer many of your comments (many of which are the same thing said over and over)
Phase word pg 99 "Their bodies and souls are seared and reshaped by cosmic forces. When they emerge, they are are transformed by their experience."
What does this mean? What does this do? The next section tells us. It turns them body and soul into a cosmoknight. They become a new RCC. They have EVERYTHING about them remade. EVERYTHING. They have new stats, new skills, new powers, new memories, new everything. And in the process they lose everything they had before, unless it is explicitly said to be kept. How do we know that? Because some things ARE said to be kept. That means that we can infer that the author knew what was kept and what was discarded.
All the abilities, Knoweldge, powers, ect of an EI are things that are not on the short list of 'things kept' (stats, appearance) Thus when their soul was remade, the new soul doesn't have them.
Now why would an EI step down, undue their Enlightenment, and return to being mere mortal? These are people that laugh at gods and demons, that respect no power other than that of moral wisdom and your asking why they would take temporary temporal power in exchange for giving up true wisdom?
As for the separate question of if a CK could become enlightened. Yes, and no. A knight could become enlightened, but in doing so would become Taoist, and fall. The question of what happens when THEY die is an interesting one since they are technically a member of a race that does not reproduce. They are of the race Cosmo-Knight....perhaps they will simply discorporate.

Actually an EI can be of any alignment, but are usually a selfish one.

[Tor]

It turns them body and soul into a cosmoknight. They become a new RCC. They have EVERYTHING about them remade. EVERYTHING. They have new stats, new skills, new powers, new memories, new everything. And in the process they lose everything they had before, unless it is explicitly said to be kept. How do we know that? Because some things ARE said to be kept. That means that we can infer that the author knew what was kept and what was discarded.

Is an OCC, not an RCC, in spite of all the epic changes that should probably have been called that.

Being remade does not mean you lose everything previous.

Some things being stated as kept does not necessarily mean anything not stated is absolutely lost. It might merely be examples of retained things rather than an exhaustive list of them.

why would an EI step down, undue their Enlightenment, and return to being mere mortal? These are people that laugh at gods and demons, that respect no power other than that of moral wisdom and your asking why they would take temporary temporal power in exchange for giving up true wisdom?

1) if they were not aware of being an EI (the pre-awakening self makes the choice
2) if they think they will get their memories back their next life
3) not being informed by the Forge that it will wipe their mind

A knight could become enlightened, but in doing so would become Taoist, and fall. The question of what happens when THEY die is an interesting one since they are technically a member of a race that does not reproduce. They are of the race Cosmo-Knight....perhaps they will simply discorporate.

As pointed out, while a Taoist or selfish change (resulting in a fall) is probable, EIs can be princ or scrup so fall might not happen.

I would like to know where Cosmo-Knight is called a race, or where it says that Cosmo-Knights lose their fertility or become impotent or that they are no longer members of their race.