New character

[Secondhand Smoke]

As momano headhunters can be psychics. I decided to roll up an amaki duelist momano.

This has not been played, just something I made due to boredom and curiousity.

My question is this. Would YOU allow this character in your game? (its not about the munch, all about the flavour)

[Zer0 Kay]

As momano headhunters can be psychics. I decided to roll up an amaki duelist momano.

This has not been played, just something I made due to boredom and curiousity.

My question is this. Would YOU allow this character in your game? (its not about the munch, all about the flavour)

Could have sworn only Amaki could be Amaki dualist.

[Morik]

As momano headhunters can be psychics. I decided to roll up an amaki duelist momano.

This has not been played, just something I made due to boredom and curiousity.

My question is this. Would YOU allow this character in your game? (its not about the munch, all about the flavour)

Not at all.

[Nightmask]

As momano headhunters can be psychics. I decided to roll up an amaki duelist momano.

This has not been played, just something I made due to boredom and curiousity.

My question is this. Would YOU allow this character in your game? (its not about the munch, all about the flavour)

Could have sworn only Amaki could be Amaki dualist.

No, they've been known to at least teach humans to be Duelists.

[Zer0 Kay]

As momano headhunters can be psychics. I decided to roll up an amaki duelist momano.

This has not been played, just something I made due to boredom and curiousity.

My question is this. Would YOU allow this character in your game? (its not about the munch, all about the flavour)

Could have sworn only Amaki could be Amaki dualist.

No, they've been known to at least teach humans to be Duelists.

Thanks, don't remember that.

[Bill]

I'd allow an Amaki Stone Man Momano Headhunter. Seems like a pretty natural combination, really. The duelist and gizmoteer are racially specific OCCs that have been mislabeled. The Stone Man RCC even refers to them as OCCs. On the otherhand, for a short series where players intentionally exploit typographical errors for fun, it could be doable.

Wait, I see what you're after. A momano with the Duelist's psionic abilities. My mistake. They're considered Master Psionics and they're not overwhelmingly powerful, so sure. As a rare example of a rare class, why not? You'd probably be unique in the world.

[Nightmask]

I'd allow an Amaki Stone Man Momano Headhunter. Seems like a pretty natural combination, really. The duelist and gizmoteer are racially specific OCCs that have been mislabeled. The Stone Man RCC even refers to them as OCCs. On the otherhand, for a short series where players intentionally exploit typographical errors for fun, it could be doable.

Wait, I see what you're after. A momano with the Duelist's psionic abilities. My mistake. They're considered Master Psionics and they're not overwhelmingly powerful, so sure. As a rare example of a rare class, why not? You'd probably be unique in the world.

Except those aren't racially specific OCC and you can have other races besides Amaki be Duelists and Gizmoteers (the Duelist in particular references humans being trained as Duelists so clearly it's not an Amaki-only class, it's only an Amaki-originated class that can be taught to non-Amaki).

[Nightmask]

So just where are the Momano Headhunters listed anyway? Are they just an OCC, some kind of race, or something else?

[Shark_Force]

So just where are the Momano Headhunters listed anyway? Are they just an OCC, some kind of race, or something else?

rifts canada i think. they're just a variation of the regular headhunter, specialized in monster hunting iinm (if you look up momano, i think it's a japanese word that is usually translated as monster hunter or something along those lines). most likely they get bonuses to the appropriate lore skills, and some extra abilities when fighting supernatural creatures and such.

[Nightmask]

So just where are the Momano Headhunters listed anyway? Are they just an OCC, some kind of race, or something else?

rifts canada i think. they're just a variation of the regular headhunter, specialized in monster hunting iinm (if you look up momano, i think it's a japanese word that is usually translated as monster hunter or something along those lines). most likely they get bonuses to the appropriate lore skills, and some extra abilities when fighting supernatural creatures and such.

So unless you were using the dual-class rules you wouldn't really be able to have one also be a Duelist. Doesn't sound like it'd be particularly over-powered compared to what's around though just from canon classes and race combinations.

[Bill]

One of the Momano's quirks is that they can possess psionic powers, up to and including master psionic abilities from the burster, zapper, and mind melter classes. The OP isn't attempting to multiclass per se, rather to adopt the psionic abilities from a class that is not listed as an option under the Momano's psionics entry. In my opinion, that would absolutely be a GM decision.

[Nightmask]

One of the Momano's quirks is that they can possess psionic powers, up to and including master psionic abilities from the burster, zapper, and mind melter classes. The OP isn't attempting to multiclass per se, rather to adopt the psionic abilities from a class that is not listed as an option under the Momano's psionics entry. In my opinion, that would absolutely be a GM decision.

Ah, okay. Probably wouldn't be able to have the Duelist though since it appears to be like the Cyber-Knight where training to shape ones potential into a particular direction is necessary rather than spontaneous like the Burster or Zapper.

[Incriptus]

I wouldn't bat an eye about the character in my Phase World game, as everyone of the players got some sort of non-standard upgrade.

From a more mechanical point of view it appears that the duelists psychic abilities are molded as part of training/education that isn't (often) present in Burster/Zapper, Nega-Psychics, or Mind Melters. Especially the significant bonuses the duelists gets while wielding a sword are coming from a skill set, so I would like to penalize the OCC skills further ...

But then I I just read the Momato class

"Reduce the number of O.C.C. Related and Secondary Skills in half if the Momano is psychic"
that sounds like a significant hit, except
"O.C.C. Related Skills: Select two other skills from the list below at levels 1..."
"Secondary Skills: Choose a total of three Secondary Skills".

In reality Momato Psychic loses 1 OCC Related and 1.5 Secondary skills

[Svartalf]

Amaki duelist is an Occ. Momano is another OCC. You can't be both simultaneously... so I'd likely disallow such a combo. I might allow a bi classed (was one, gave it up and started on the other, along the lines of what is allowed in PFRPG), if the campaign wass suited for it AND the player gave me the granddaddy of backgroundss to explain how North and South Americas managed to meet so (last time I checked, Momanos are not very common in NA, and virtually unknown anywhere else)

Now, if you mean just an Amaki non-dualist who is a Momano Headhunter,, there would be much less difficulty (though the guy would likely have to travel far to meet a Momano, as AFAIK, those are specific to North America)

[Bill]

It's good that you've read the thread to make sure you're not repeating what others have said...

[Svartalf]

I may repeat, but that's to add weight to it.

[Bill]

I may repeat, but that's to add weight to it.

Ah, but you'd know that you've misinterpreted some key pieces of information if you had read the thread. I'll review them for you.

A. The Momano is a Headhunter variant presented in Canada, not native to it.
1. Regional concerns do not enter into the discussion.

B. The Momano includes a psionics option that can grant it the powers of one of several master-level psionic classes. Specific options include Burster, Zapper, Mind Melter, and Negapsychic.
1. The OP is not trying to multiclass, negating your answer, but to exploit this class feature in an unorthodox fashion.

C. Nightmask has pointed out that the Duelist gains its powers via rigorous training; suggesting that the more naturally occurring aspect of the specified psionic classes is the defining characteristic we should be looking at to determine if a psionic class's powers would be a valid choice.
1. I disagree with this assessment. Every master-psionic class includes a statement to the effect that the character has burned off most of its psychic potential developing control over its powers. To me, that says they all require tremendous self-control and discipline. I see no reason why a psionic tradition that can be codified into any form of training (which still requires the potential to be a master-psionic) would be eliminated from the pool of possible powers. Especially because the Momano does not gain any of the skills or abilities of the class outside of the psionic powers.

[Secondhand Smoke]

Amaki Stone men are a race. So yes they can be an occ. It even states this!

As Bill seems the only one to grasp the idea, the purpose was to substitute one of the master psionic classes with a differing one. I think you would gain all the duelist powers and abilities otherwise none of the choices would make sense either! (A nega psychic that can't disrupt magic????)

Its not exactly difficult to marry the two into a backstory either.

Duelist gets one arm chopped off whilst on a scouting mission in America fighting some demons. His group gets destroyed in the ambush and he is fortunately aided by a group of wandering headhunters. Impressed by his ability they take him in and train him in their ways.He stays with them for years training as he cannot get back "home" and knows he is assumed dead. His lost arm is refitted with a bionic arm and a few more implants all around. All that training as a duelist and then as a momano. He doesnt stop having those powers or advancing in them but the focus is on as a headhunter.

Duelist body armour and TW psi-blade aside, the rest of the equipment is of the headhunter. It makes sense for the character.

Anyway it's not a broken character, I think it's fun and creative and most GMs would see that and allow it.

(Dont start with that duel classing rubbish again)

[Secondhand Smoke]

As momano headhunters can be psychics. I decided to roll up an amaki duelist momano.

This has not been played, just something I made due to boredom and curiousity.

My question is this. Would YOU allow this character in your game? (its not about the munch, all about the flavour)

Could have sworn only Amaki could be Amaki dualist.

A perfect example of not actually reading but answering anyway.

[Secondhand Smoke]

I do concede to the point regarding training vs spontaneous.

It does seem that way.

Hmmm, oh well I'm sure I can find a GM in the future who'd let me try it

[Nightmask]

C. Nightmask has pointed out that the Duelist gains its powers via rigorous training; suggesting that the more naturally occurring aspect of the specified psionic classes is the defining characteristic we should be looking at to determine if a psionic class's powers would be a valid choice.
1. I disagree with this assessment. Every master-psionic class includes a statement to the effect that the character has burned off most of its psychic potential developing control over its powers. To me, that says they all require tremendous self-control and discipline. I see no reason why a psionic tradition that can be codified into any form of training (which still requires the potential to be a master-psionic) would be eliminated from the pool of possible powers. Especially because the Momano does not gain any of the skills or abilities of the class outside of the psionic powers.

Well as I've pointed out in other threads that cut-and-paste job isn't supported by any of the actual material and should have been removed a long time ago. When you look at those psychic classes all but a few exceptions have as much or more PPE than a non-psychic person so clearly they aren't in fact using up any of their psychic potential to develop anything. They certainly aren't all gifted with tremendous self-control and discipline because they aren't training to develop into a burster or mind melter or what have you that's just their natural focus, unlike someone who's a Cyber-Knight or Duelist they are explicitly required to undergo training and display focus and discipline to become one they aren't classes you can just spontaneously become you have to work for them.

[Morik]

I do concede to the point regarding training vs spontaneous.

It does seem that way.

Hmmm, oh well I'm sure I can find a GM in the future who'd let me try it

Not me.

[Bill]

C. Nightmask has pointed out that the Duelist gains its powers via rigorous training; suggesting that the more naturally occurring aspect of the specified psionic classes is the defining characteristic we should be looking at to determine if a psionic class's powers would be a valid choice.
1. I disagree with this assessment. Every master-psionic class includes a statement to the effect that the character has burned off most of its psychic potential developing control over its powers. To me, that says they all require tremendous self-control and discipline. I see no reason why a psionic tradition that can be codified into any form of training (which still requires the potential to be a master-psionic) would be eliminated from the pool of possible powers. Especially because the Momano does not gain any of the skills or abilities of the class outside of the psionic powers.

Well as I've pointed out in other threads that cut-and-paste job isn't supported by any of the actual material and should have been removed a long time ago. When you look at those psychic classes all but a few exceptions have as much or more PPE than a non-psychic person so clearly they aren't in fact using up any of their psychic potential to develop anything. They certainly aren't all gifted with tremendous self-control and discipline because they aren't training to develop into a burster or mind melter or what have you that's just their natural focus, unlike someone who's a Cyber-Knight or Duelist they are explicitly required to undergo training and display focus and discipline to become one they aren't classes you can just spontaneously become you have to work for them.

I have to disagree with you. The text is what it is and, while you may not like it, the text indicates that Master Psionics require training and discipline to accomplish the amazing feats they are capable of. To support this, a character can't spontaneously become a Master Psionic; each variety is a class unto itself. It may seem like a "natural emphasis", but no more so than a Duelist's affinity for swordplay from my perspective. The Coalition Psi Battalion information from PsiScape even indicates that training regimens can be applied to cause a person with an affinity for one Master Psionic class to develop as another.

[drewkitty ~..~]

As momano headhunters can be psychics. I decided to roll up an amaki duelist momano.

This has not been played, just something I made due to boredom and curiousity.

My question is this. Would YOU allow this character in your game? (its not about the munch, all about the flavour)

the first question I would ask would be at what level did the Amki change class from being a duelist to be a Momano headhunter.
(I have not reviewed the MHH in years....since the year it was 1st published...so I will recuse myself for the discussions about the restrictions on them.)

[Nightmask]

C. Nightmask has pointed out that the Duelist gains its powers via rigorous training; suggesting that the more naturally occurring aspect of the specified psionic classes is the defining characteristic we should be looking at to determine if a psionic class's powers would be a valid choice.
1. I disagree with this assessment. Every master-psionic class includes a statement to the effect that the character has burned off most of its psychic potential developing control over its powers. To me, that says they all require tremendous self-control and discipline. I see no reason why a psionic tradition that can be codified into any form of training (which still requires the potential to be a master-psionic) would be eliminated from the pool of possible powers. Especially because the Momano does not gain any of the skills or abilities of the class outside of the psionic powers.

Well as I've pointed out in other threads that cut-and-paste job isn't supported by any of the actual material and should have been removed a long time ago. When you look at those psychic classes all but a few exceptions have as much or more PPE than a non-psychic person so clearly they aren't in fact using up any of their psychic potential to develop anything. They certainly aren't all gifted with tremendous self-control and discipline because they aren't training to develop into a burster or mind melter or what have you that's just their natural focus, unlike someone who's a Cyber-Knight or Duelist they are explicitly required to undergo training and display focus and discipline to become one they aren't classes you can just spontaneously become you have to work for them.

I have to disagree with you. The text is what it is and, while you may not like it, the text indicates that Master Psionics require training and discipline to accomplish the amazing feats they are capable of. To support this, a character can't spontaneously become a Master Psionic; each variety is a class unto itself. It may seem like a "natural emphasis", but no more so than a Duelist's affinity for swordplay from my perspective. The Coalition Psi Battalion information from PsiScape even indicates that training regimens can be applied to cause a person with an affinity for one Master Psionic class to develop as another.

Except the text doesn't indicate that, only that some master psychics from the actual text on them (like Duelists) that they're the result of training, nor does any text exist that states or implies that all master psychics are the result of training and don't occur naturally or spontaneously. Indeed it would be quite contrary and illogical to try and claim that such massive potential has to be trained to exist, if you have to train it then it's not natural potential and you don't have to train to be a burster they just are.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Amaki duelist is an Occ. Momano is another OCC. You can't be both simultaneously... so I'd likely disallow such a combo. I might allow a bi classed (was one, gave it up and started on the other, along the lines of what is allowed in PFRPG), if the campaign was suited for it AND the player gave me the granddaddy of backgrounds to explain how North and South Americas managed to meet so (last time I checked, Momanos are not very common in NA, and virtually unknown anywhere else)

Now, if you mean just an Amaki non-dualist who is a Momano Headhunter,, there would be much less difficulty (though the guy would likely have to travel far to meet a Momano, as AFAIK, those are specific to North America)

The Amaki duelist is an RCC. In this meaning of the Label RCC the class is restricted to people of their house (clan/association/guild) (this is like a mafia family where most are of a single family but can include outsiders that prove themselves are worthy.)
This does mean that the RCC can not be had with out acceptable background that says how they became a dualist.

Amaki Stone men are a race. So yes they can be an occ. It even states this!

1)The Amaki Stonemen are a race___'period'
2) There are three Amaki Stonemen RCC (Racial Char Class) that the ASM can take/have.
3) The ASM can also have an OCC...but this is taken in place of one of the RCCs as a starting class.
These three things are what canon says.

(acknowledges there is dispute over the number of ASM RCCs but that is beside the point being discussed so there is no need to get into an argument here about it. *to <you know who you are>*)

[Riftmaker]

I dont allow much out of south america 1 or 2 so no.

[Bill]

C. Nightmask has pointed out that the Duelist gains its powers via rigorous training; suggesting that the more naturally occurring aspect of the specified psionic classes is the defining characteristic we should be looking at to determine if a psionic class's powers would be a valid choice.
1. I disagree with this assessment. Every master-psionic class includes a statement to the effect that the character has burned off most of its psychic potential developing control over its powers. To me, that says they all require tremendous self-control and discipline. I see no reason why a psionic tradition that can be codified into any form of training (which still requires the potential to be a master-psionic) would be eliminated from the pool of possible powers. Especially because the Momano does not gain any of the skills or abilities of the class outside of the psionic powers.

Well as I've pointed out in other threads that cut-and-paste job isn't supported by any of the actual material and should have been removed a long time ago. When you look at those psychic classes all but a few exceptions have as much or more PPE than a non-psychic person so clearly they aren't in fact using up any of their psychic potential to develop anything. They certainly aren't all gifted with tremendous self-control and discipline because they aren't training to develop into a burster or mind melter or what have you that's just their natural focus, unlike someone who's a Cyber-Knight or Duelist they are explicitly required to undergo training and display focus and discipline to become one they aren't classes you can just spontaneously become you have to work for them.

I have to disagree with you. The text is what it is and, while you may not like it, the text indicates that Master Psionics require training and discipline to accomplish the amazing feats they are capable of. To support this, a character can't spontaneously become a Master Psionic; each variety is a class unto itself. It may seem like a "natural emphasis", but no more so than a Duelist's affinity for swordplay from my perspective. The Coalition Psi Battalion information from PsiScape even indicates that training regimens can be applied to cause a person with an affinity for one Master Psionic class to develop as another.

Except the text doesn't indicate that, only that some master psychics from the actual text on them (like Duelists) that they're the result of training, nor does any text exist that states or implies that all master psychics are the result of training and don't occur naturally or spontaneously. Indeed it would be quite contrary and illogical to try and claim that such massive potential has to be trained to exist, if you have to train it then it's not natural potential and you don't have to train to be a burster they just are.

Yes you do. It wouldn't be a class otherwise, just random powers that could be assigned to anyone. Where does the text indicate that Master Psionics are born understanding their power? Gimme a page number.

[Nightmask]

C. Nightmask has pointed out that the Duelist gains its powers via rigorous training; suggesting that the more naturally occurring aspect of the specified psionic classes is the defining characteristic we should be looking at to determine if a psionic class's powers would be a valid choice.
1. I disagree with this assessment. Every master-psionic class includes a statement to the effect that the character has burned off most of its psychic potential developing control over its powers. To me, that says they all require tremendous self-control and discipline. I see no reason why a psionic tradition that can be codified into any form of training (which still requires the potential to be a master-psionic) would be eliminated from the pool of possible powers. Especially because the Momano does not gain any of the skills or abilities of the class outside of the psionic powers.

Well as I've pointed out in other threads that cut-and-paste job isn't supported by any of the actual material and should have been removed a long time ago. When you look at those psychic classes all but a few exceptions have as much or more PPE than a non-psychic person so clearly they aren't in fact using up any of their psychic potential to develop anything. They certainly aren't all gifted with tremendous self-control and discipline because they aren't training to develop into a burster or mind melter or what have you that's just their natural focus, unlike someone who's a Cyber-Knight or Duelist they are explicitly required to undergo training and display focus and discipline to become one they aren't classes you can just spontaneously become you have to work for them.

I have to disagree with you. The text is what it is and, while you may not like it, the text indicates that Master Psionics require training and discipline to accomplish the amazing feats they are capable of. To support this, a character can't spontaneously become a Master Psionic; each variety is a class unto itself. It may seem like a "natural emphasis", but no more so than a Duelist's affinity for swordplay from my perspective. The Coalition Psi Battalion information from PsiScape even indicates that training regimens can be applied to cause a person with an affinity for one Master Psionic class to develop as another.

Except the text doesn't indicate that, only that some master psychics from the actual text on them (like Duelists) that they're the result of training, nor does any text exist that states or implies that all master psychics are the result of training and don't occur naturally or spontaneously. Indeed it would be quite contrary and illogical to try and claim that such massive potential has to be trained to exist, if you have to train it then it's not natural potential and you don't have to train to be a burster they just are.

Yes you do. It wouldn't be a class otherwise, just random powers that could be assigned to anyone. Where does the text indicate that Master Psionics are born understanding their power? Gimme a page number.

Sorry but no that's simply not correct, what makes a class doesn't require intensive training even if some do. What makes you a borg for example is having most of your body replaced with bionics you certainly aren't intensively training to develop bionics, just as what makes you a Juicer is the Harness and drugs you're outfitted with.

Resorting to fallacies also doesn't help your case with the page number demand, since you're the one claiming that all master psychics are the result of intensive training and none simply have naturally occurring powers it falls on you to actually support your claim with facts but you can't because there is no such statement in the books and nothing that supports the idea. We know training is not essential for all master psychics but that some require it to become certain kinds of master psychics. Bursters don't require training to become bursters but Duelists do require training to become Duelists.

[Svartalf]

Amaki duelist is an Occ. Momano is another OCC. You can't be both simultaneously... so I'd likely disallow such a combo. I might allow a bi classed (was one, gave it up and started on the other, along the lines of what is allowed in PFRPG), if the campaign was suited for it AND the player gave me the granddaddy of backgrounds to explain how North and South Americas managed to meet so (last time I checked, Momanos are not very common in NA, and virtually unknown anywhere else)

Now, if you mean just an Amaki non-dualist who is a Momano Headhunter,, there would be much less difficulty (though the guy would likely have to travel far to meet a Momano, as AFAIK, those are specific to North America)

The Amaki duelist is an RCC. In this meaning of the Label RCC the class is restricted to people of their house (clan/association/guild) (this is like a mafia family where most are of a single family but can include outsiders that prove themselves are worthy.)
This does mean that the RCC can not be had with out acceptable background that says how they became a dualist.

Amaki Stone men are a race. So yes they can be an occ. It even states this!

1)The Amaki Stonemen are a race___'period'
2) There are three Amaki Stonemen RCC (Racial Char Class) that the ASM can take/have.
3) The ASM can also have an OCC...but this is taken in place of one of the RCCs as a starting class.
These three things are what canon says.

(acknowledges there is dispute over the number of ASM RCCs but that is beside the point being discussed so there is no need to get into an argument here about it. *to <you know who you are>*)

Technically, since trusted humans (under Amaki tutelage) have been trained as duelists, that makes it an OCC rather than a proper RCC, even if the Ammaki House of the Sword is the only source of training for it.

Also, beside the duelist and Gizmoteer, what is the third "RCC" specific to the Amaki race?

[Nightmask]

Amaki duelist is an Occ. Momano is another OCC. You can't be both simultaneously... so I'd likely disallow such a combo. I might allow a bi classed (was one, gave it up and started on the other, along the lines of what is allowed in PFRPG), if the campaign was suited for it AND the player gave me the granddaddy of backgrounds to explain how North and South Americas managed to meet so (last time I checked, Momanos are not very common in NA, and virtually unknown anywhere else)

Now, if you mean just an Amaki non-dualist who is a Momano Headhunter,, there would be much less difficulty (though the guy would likely have to travel far to meet a Momano, as AFAIK, those are specific to North America)

The Amaki duelist is an RCC. In this meaning of the Label RCC the class is restricted to people of their house (clan/association/guild) (this is like a mafia family where most are of a single family but can include outsiders that prove themselves are worthy.)
This does mean that the RCC can not be had with out acceptable background that says how they became a dualist.

Amaki Stone men are a race. So yes they can be an occ. It even states this!

1)The Amaki Stonemen are a race___'period'
2) There are three Amaki Stonemen RCC (Racial Char Class) that the ASM can take/have.
3) The ASM can also have an OCC...but this is taken in place of one of the RCCs as a starting class.
These three things are what canon says.

(acknowledges there is dispute over the number of ASM RCCs but that is beside the point being discussed so there is no need to get into an argument here about it. *to <you know who you are>*)

Technically, since trusted humans (under Amaki tutelage) have been trained as duelists, that makes it an OCC rather than a proper RCC, even if the Ammaki House of the Sword is the only source of training for it.

Also, beside the duelist and Gizmoteer, what is the third "RCC" specific to the Amaki race?

I haven't looked in a while but he's likely referring to a generic 'Amaki RCC' covering what the average or most common skills are for a non-Duelist/Non-Gizmoteer Amaki. So you'd have the average Amaki, a Duelist Amaki, and a Gizmoteer Amaki, along with other OCC options. But the misuse of the RCC label on the Duelist and Gizmoteer cause confusion to where some will insist only Amaki can have them even when the descriptions themselves say otherwise.

The only question really comes down to whether or not, as per the original post, as to whether or not the Duelist psychic powers/abilities are something someone could spontaneously develop. Given under its description it's all about intense training that's a closely guarded secret it doesn't appear to be a psychic class that one can simply spontaneously access like one can the Burster or Mind Melter.

[Svartalf]

While Amaki have 6 skills in addition to what their OCC provides, there's no such thing as a generic Amaki stone man RCC, they are a race and Amaki PCs are supposed to take an OCC (including either of the two Aaki specific OCCs/RCCs, or a more generic ones since they have theoretical access to just about any adventurer, military, magical or psi CC they wish, or its equivalent, including the likes of Coalition specific OCCs, or psi stalker or mind bleeder).

Having taken a cursory look, it's clearly stated that humans have been trained as duelists, but I have seen no mention of non Amaki gizmoteers, which would make it a genuine RCC.

Given how the description of the duelist is emphatic on how much of a trainee's childhood the training takes and how duelists are dour compared to the mass of fun loving Amakis, I'd say a master psionic can be trained as one, but that the class cannot occur spontaneously.

[Slight001]

Best option... aborted dualist training... psionics bit no bonuses... stuck with momano training/skills.

I don't recall all master psionics lossing skill slots only the Mind Melter iirc suffered for its 'power'.

[42dragon]

Amaki Stone men are a race. So yes they can be an occ. It even states this!

As Bill seems the only one to grasp the idea, the purpose was to substitute one of the master psionic classes with a differing one. I think you would gain all the duelist powers and abilities otherwise none of the choices would make sense either! (A nega psychic that can't disrupt magic????)

Its not exactly difficult to marry the two into a backstory either.

Duelist gets one arm chopped off whilst on a scouting mission in America fighting some demons. His group gets destroyed in the ambush and he is fortunately aided by a group of wandering headhunters. Impressed by his ability they take him in and train him in their ways.He stays with them for years training as he cannot get back "home" and knows he is assumed dead. His lost arm is refitted with a bionic arm and a few more implants all around. All that training as a duelist and then as a momano. He doesnt stop having those powers or advancing in them but the focus is on as a headhunter.

Duelist body armour and TW psi-blade aside, the rest of the equipment is of the headhunter. It makes sense for the character.

Anyway it's not a broken character, I think it's fun and creative and most GMs would see that and allow it.

(Dont start with that duel classing rubbish again)

I agree with NM and Svart. If you had the master psionic potential to develop into a Duelist, but didn't get trained to a full 1st level duelist, then at best you could have the psionic powers but none of the special OCC/RCC abilities and training bonuses. Other more naturally occuring (non-trained) Psi-Classes you could get those extra abilities (i.e. Burster).

Just using your backstory above. Your first sentence says he was a Duelist (First OCC/RCC). Later you say the character has the duelist body armor and TW psi-blade (again equipment of a full OCC/RCC), they aren't just giving those out to new initiates. Then the character loses his arm and gets a replacement bionic one (hampers psi abilities) and is trained as a Momano. That is the exact definition and example of a dual/second character class by Palladium Books standards. First you were a Duelist (and have all the abilities and equipment of one, and we have to assume you are at least 2nd level) then due to circumstances decided to change classes. All your Duelist abilities and psionics would now be frozen and you would start over as a level 1 Momano.

[Secondhand Smoke]

Except Momano can be master psionics and those abilities aren't frozen to 1st level, therefore neither shluld this guys. The skills gained are of the Momano. He is a duelist with those powers so ofc he will gain the blade. The armour I can see being argued against.


The backstory was an explanation of how he has come to be and as with most backstories it requires a little leniancy from the GM.

Lastly, losing one limb DOES NOT reduce powers or bonuses. You need to seriously reread RUE.

[42dragon]

No you are not a duelist. You are an Amaki (race) Momano (class), with psychic powers similar to a duelist. I would let you have the standard psi-powers of the duelist, and at level 3 let you take regular psi-sword and maybe psychic body field to simulate the duelist abilities (GM choice), but I wouldn't let you take all the extra combat bonuses and abilities (sorry no free +2 attacks, strike, parry, dodge, and all the other free bonuses).

If you were an actual duelist (a class) then you would be dual/multi classing to also be a Monamo and everyhting would freeze at the level you decided to make the switch per Palladium Books rules on multi-classing.

Perhaps you should read the Momano Headhunter description you want to cheese so badly.

WB 20 Page 124. "Important Note: The duration, range and damage inflicted by the psionic powers of a Psychic Momano Headhunter (or any psychic character with more than three implants or one bionic limb, other than a bio-system) are reduced by half, and are obliterated by full, or near full, bionic conversion."

Losing a limb does not reduce your powers, getting a bionic arm does. Getting a cyber or bio-system arm would not.

But you are right about the other part. This backstory and character concept does require one thing... Leniency and acceptance from the GM. Some will allow it, many others as have posted here will not.

[Secondhand Smoke]

RUE is more up to date in terms of rules for psionics and bionics then Rifts Canada maybe you should take a look at it as I already mentioned. Having one bionic limb does not reduce bonuses.
As I said, you should read RUE again.

In all honesty it's not down to trying to cheese as you put it and more about trying to find which posters have more fun relaxed attitudes and which don't, and sharing a concept I thought was entertaining and looked fun.

I in no way asked for any of your explanations or your individual attempts at being or rather trying to be rule lawyers. I understand a lot of you get off on that. That ain't me. Simple no was all that was needed.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Amaki duelist is an Occ. Momano is another OCC. You can't be both simultaneously... so I'd likely disallow such a combo. I might allow a bi classed (was one, gave it up and started on the other, along the lines of what is allowed in PFRPG), if the campaign was suited for it AND the player gave me the granddaddy of backgrounds to explain how North and South Americas managed to meet so (last time I checked, Momanos are not very common in NA, and virtually unknown anywhere else)

Now, if you mean just an Amaki non-dualist who is a Momano Headhunter,, there would be much less difficulty (though the guy would likely have to travel far to meet a Momano, as AFAIK, those are specific to North America)

The Amaki duelist is an RCC. In this meaning of the Label RCC the class is restricted to people of their house (clan/association/guild) (this is like a mafia family where most are of a single family but can include outsiders that prove themselves are worthy.)
This does mean that the RCC can not be had with out acceptable background that says how they became a dualist.

Amaki Stone men are a race. So yes they can be an occ. It even states this!

1)The Amaki Stonemen are a race___'period'
2) There are three Amaki Stonemen RCC (Racial Char Class) that the ASM can take/have.
3) The ASM can also have an OCC...but this is taken in place of one of the RCCs as a starting class.
These three things are what canon says.

(acknowledges there is dispute over the number of ASM RCCs but that is beside the point being discussed so there is no need to get into an argument here about it. *to <you know who you are>*)

Technically, since trusted humans (under Amaki tutelage) have been trained as duelists, that makes it an OCC rather than a proper RCC, even if the Ammaki House of the Sword is the only source of training for it.

Also, beside the duelist and Gizmoteer, what is the third "RCC" specific to the Amaki race?

Which is why I stated the apparent meaning of RCC when used with the Duelist class.

Erp....usually there is a class written with the race text (see the genetic manipulated/created races for examples)..... the two ASM RCCs....

[Shark_Force]

all this talk about what the rules do and don't allow seems silly.

the rules clearly don't allow it. there's a list of what you can be. it's not on the list. therefore, it's not within the rules.

but who cares. who cares what the rules are for official dual-classing, who cares whether master psychics train or don't train. this is not a game where the rules are to be followed blindly (or, in many cases, at all). this is not a game where the rules try to answer every question. this is a game where if you ask the creator how to make an attack roll, he'll probably tell you to do it however you like, because who cares what the rulebook says if you are more likely to have fun playing it differently?

the relevant information is in the hands of the GM. the only questions that should matter when determining if this should be allowed is "will this character disrupt anyone else's fun, either by overshadowing someone else's character or by forcing irreconcilable conflict" and "do i think this character is being requested because the player will enjoy roleplaying, or just because the player wants to min/max some eldritch abomination that will destroy the game universe". with possible other questions like "will this fit into the game i'm going to be running" and "do i want to allow it" mixed in for good measure (many of which are more-or-less sub-questions of the main two).

pretty much, once you've got those questions answered, the answer to the question of whether or not to allow an amaki duelist momano headhunter becomes obvious.

[flatline]

I'd allow it. I'm all about player empowerment.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

it's not just about whether you're in favour of letting the players do cool stuff or not. if you're running a campaign with a theme, it might not fit (for example, a CS game, or if you're running a game set in china or russia, and so on). or, it might fit with the setting, but not in the style (for example, if you're playing a game that's all based around social interaction and investigation), or even just not with the group (one or more other players already have characters that are inherently opposed to the new character being requested, or the group is simply of a vastly different power level than the requested character).

what it shouldn't be about is "do the rules cover this eventuality", because a bunch of stuff the rules cover is covered in two or more places, and is handled in a different way each time. if the rules were made to be absolute, that wouldn't be the case.

[Daniel Stoker]

I'm curious, what does being a Duelist Mamano Headhunter get you that just being a Duelist who hunts?


Daniel Stoker

[H.P. Hovercraft]

Sure, it will most definitely depend on the type of game you and your GM are running, but overall I'd say,"why not."

However, I'd personally run the character's backstory differently for what you've got in mind:

A young boy(?) being trained as a momono (with that classes OCC skill set) who is starting to show signs of developing into a Master psionic as well (as per the MHH psionics clause). An elder Dualist (perhaps also working with these momono) sees the kids potential and helps him to develop the Master psi-abilities of a dualist. This way the char is fully a MHH but only with the psi-set of a dualist, but not the skill-set. Then when the kid finishes all his training and is ready to "graduate," the elder dualist could gift the young Headhunter with his old dualist armor and psi-blade (as the boy is probably the closest thing to a true 'pupil' he would have).

End result: Momono Headhunter OCC and skill set, plus the special psi-abilities and powers of a Dualist.

(Just my 2cr. on your idea, because the other version posted above has the char start as one OCC (dualist), only to have him switch to another OCC (momono).
I realize that the Master-psychic clause in the OCC's description doesn't give the option for this particular psi-class, but if a full Headhunter can also have the full psionic abilities of a Mind Melter <!!!!!!>, then why not something else; so long as you make it make sense story-wise).

Any-which-way........................Have Fun (it IS the #1 Rule after all)!!