Shifter and Summoner versus Lord or Mage class Gargoyle subs

[Tor]

Both the shifter and summoner can control a certain number of lesser beings (stereotypically demon or deevil let's say, in respect to minion war popularity) with 'greater' tier demon or deevil counting as 2 lessers.

Summoners appear to suck regarding the control of a Gargoyle Mage or Gargoyle Lord though, taking 2 slots like a Greater Demon in spite of being technical sub-demons. Another reason (besides size considerations) to favour Gargoylites IMO.

Shifters do not appear to have this problem.. and in fact are super-proficient at controlling sub-demons. While to a summoner, subs and lessers take the same slot space, a Shifter gets a 2for1 deal...

So essentially... at level 4 a Summoner can only control 1 Gargoyle Mage... but a Shifter can control 4?

If anyone were to ever dual-class I would say to use Shifting to control mass numbers of sub-demons (or imps, or poltergeists, or haunters) while Summoning sticks to traditionally dominating the greater-lesser class guys.

[eliakon]

Different kinds of magic will of course have different results.
Circle magic seems to treat things one way, while Summoners may, or may not, get to treat things another. Big surprise.

[Glistam]

When I envision a summoner and a shifter in the same room, I imagine it would go something like this.

Both characters have determined that they need to summon a supernatural minion in order to achieve their goal. So of course, the summoner kneels down, clears a spot on the ground and begins to unload various mustical paraphenalia from her bag. The shifter watches this for a few moments, puzzled, then finally speaks.
Shifter: "What in the world are you doing?"
Summoner: "I'm constructing the circle we're going to need."
Shifter: "That's absurd. Why are you wasting time with this? There was a nexus only about 30 minutes away, we need to head there and call the creature."
Summoner: "Between the two of us there's enough energy to do it here. We'd lose a whole hour if we went to the nexus for the energy."
Shifter: "Energy? Of course that's useful to take while we're there, but I'm talking about using the Nexus itself to call out for and bring the beast forth."
Summoner: "The nexus... itself...? That makes no sense. Only a properly drawn and energized circle can bring forth one of these creatures safely."
Shifter: "That's nonsense. I've never needed such mumbo-jumbo before. You just open a tiny rift to grab the beings attention, lure it through and subdue it with your will."
The summoner looks up at the Shifter with horror in her eyes.
Summoner: "Are you mad? You would have me believe you call forth such creatures with no protection, no rituals, you just... invite them to your realm and hope you can cow them into submission?"
Shifter: "Of course. Why, that isn't how you and your ilk do such a thing?"
Summoner: "Of course not! Using specific components I construct and enchant a circle that will call forth one of these creature and trap them within. From the safety of this construct I then bargain with the being. If an accord cannot be reached and it will not submit, I send it back."
Shifter: "Magic circles? Will not submit? Send it back? You sound like a child. Your will is all that matters. If you allow failure to be an option then of course you'll fail."
The summoner begins packing her things up, and clears away what she had begun to draw upon the floor.
Summoner: "I am done here. I will not work with someone so careless and ignorant."
Shifter: "Fine by me. I'd rather be working with someone who doesn't need useless crutches, anyway."

[Tor]

Eh...accurate differences at first, but the end makes them sound a bit too different. Both classes are able to negotiate contracts and both are able to ignore contract and dominate via battles of will. Main difference being that summoner relies on endurance (out-patience the beasts) and shifter on affinity (intimidate them)

Needing a nexus vs needing a circle is one major thing though, yeah. Plus the means of protection. Failing shifters have to win initiative to shut portals fast enough, whereas I think a Summoner who fails the battle can simply opt to send them back because I think the beast is trapped in the circle until you release it? Need to go reread PF I think...

[Glistam]

Some people may work hard to look past their differences to see only the similarities, while other will ignore the similarities and focus only on the differences. I stand by what I wrote for those particular characters, but two different Shifters and Summoners may react totally differently.

[eliakon]

Some people may work hard to look past their differences to see only the similarities, while other will ignore the similarities and focus only on the differences. I stand by what I wrote for those particular characters, but two different Shifters and Summoners may react totally differently.

That's a pretty cool description actually. And it highlights some of the differences. The classes have similarities....but they also have differences, and weaknesses. And each class is likely to see the other as 'weak'

[Lukterran]

Both the shifter and summoner can control a certain number of lesser beings (stereotypically demon or deevil let's say, in respect to minion war popularity) with 'greater' tier demon or deevil counting as 2 lessers.

Summoners appear to suck regarding the control of a Gargoyle Mage or Gargoyle Lord though, taking 2 slots like a Greater Demon in spite of being technical sub-demons. Another reason (besides size considerations) to favour Gargoylites IMO.

Shifters do not appear to have this problem.. and in fact are super-proficient at controlling sub-demons. While to a summoner, subs and lessers take the same slot space, a Shifter gets a 2for1 deal...

So essentially... at level 4 a Summoner can only control 1 Gargoyle Mage... but a Shifter can control 4?

If anyone were to ever dual-class I would say to use Shifting to control mass numbers of sub-demons (or imps, or poltergeists, or haunters) while Summoning sticks to traditionally dominating the greater-lesser class guys.

Well...summoners were created for Palladium Fantasy which power level wasn't supposed to be as Munchkin like as Rifts Earth. There addition to Rifts was more of just an afterthought to the conversion book. The Shifter was really supposed to be the Rifts version of a PF Summoner.

With that said there are still a lot of really powerful magic that summoners have access to (especially in regard to power circles) that shifters do not.

The ony pros I see a shifter having over a summoner:
- Being able to control a few more sub creature
- Spell casting abilities
- No need to set up circles
- No need for components and a sacrifice

The pros on the summoner side are:
- Able to summon many types of beings (people, animals, elementals, angels, demons, dragons etc...)
- Access to power circles and their magics
- ME and not MA based. Summoners don't need to negotiate with their summons. The dominate through will
- Do not need to have access to leylines or nexus points

It just depends on the players and the circumstances, but for the most part the classes are fairly balanced.

With that all being said. A well prepared summoner still has the ability to complete dominate against most other classes. Especially a high level summoner.

[Tor]

I do not see the Shifter as being the Rifts version of Summoner, least not initially.

If we compare RMB Shifters to the PRPG version, Summoners could easily summon monsters, whereas Shifters, though they did start with a spell to do so, would have an incredibly hard time of gathering the required PPE to cast that high-level spell.

RUE on the other hand, did boost them to be a closer match to the Summoner alongside their other abilities. Or perhaps pre-RUE, call it something being built up to by other books like Mystic Russia, Dark Conversions and Dimension Builder.

[Galroth]

Both the shifter and summoner can control a certain number of lesser beings (stereotypically demon or deevil let's say, in respect to minion war popularity) with 'greater' tier demon or deevil counting as 2 lessers.

Summoners appear to suck regarding the control of a Gargoyle Mage or Gargoyle Lord though, taking 2 slots like a Greater Demon in spite of being technical sub-demons. Another reason (besides size considerations) to favour Gargoylites IMO.

Shifters do not appear to have this problem.. and in fact are super-proficient at controlling sub-demons. While to a summoner, subs and lessers take the same slot space, a Shifter gets a 2for1 deal...

So essentially... at level 4 a Summoner can only control 1 Gargoyle Mage... but a Shifter can control 4?

If anyone were to ever dual-class I would say to use Shifting to control mass numbers of sub-demons (or imps, or poltergeists, or haunters) while Summoning sticks to traditionally dominating the greater-lesser class guys.

Well...summoners were created for Palladium Fantasy which power level wasn't supposed to be as Munchkin like as Rifts Earth. There addition to Rifts was more of just an afterthought to the conversion book. The Shifter was really supposed to be the Rifts version of a PF Summoner.

With that said there are still a lot of really powerful magic that summoners have access to (especially in regard to power circles) that shifters do not.

The ony pros I see a shifter having over a summoner:
- Being able to control a few more sub creature
- Spell casting abilities
- No need to set up circles
- No need for components and a sacrifice

The pros on the summoner side are:
- Able to summon many types of beings (people, animals, elementals, angels, demons, dragons etc...)
- Access to power circles and their magics
- ME and not MA based. Summoners don't need to negotiate with their summons. The dominate through will
- Do not need to have access to leylines or nexus points

It just depends on the players and the circumstances, but for the most part the classes are fairly balanced.

With that all being said. A well prepared summoner still has the ability to complete dominate against most other classes. Especially a high level summoner.

I don't have my book with me so I might be wrong, but Shifters can summon everything on that list except Dragons (and maybe people but I think a spell exists for that).

[Killer Cyborg]

PRPG

https://palladium-store.com/1001/catego ... y-RPG.html

Notice that the category there is "Palladium FANTASY RPG."
Notice that whether it's first edition or 2nd edition, all the books that abbreviate the overall game use "PFRPG," not "PRG."

Get with the times.

[Tor]

Both are acceptable KC.

For example, lemme go pick up my PF2ndEd book (with witch and green dragon on cover)

Page 1: "The fantasy World of the Palladium Role-Playing Game is violent"

Page 11: "Why do a second edition of the Palladium RPG in the first place?"

Rear cover: "Also for the Palladium Fantasy RPG series: Palladium RPG Book II: Old Ones, 2nd Edition"

Appending Fantasy is optional even if it now appears on the front cover. It is acceptable to omit it.

Although the PRPG has been called the 1st Edition of PFPRG I still prefer to call it by what is on its cover though.

If I had to vote, I would say "Palladium World RPG" would be ideal. Although the 'FRP' term is sometimes dropped in the glossary, I'm not sure it holds a distinctive enough meaning from RP (especially considering that other games like Rifts have medieval elements, albeit mixed with psifi) and describing the genre prefixing RPG for only one game strikes me as odd. I also prefer wider-use applications of the term (the fantastic, fantasizing) rather than focusing on medieval.

Especially since the Palladium World does contain horror elements, D+G even mentions its gods are collecting tech from other dimensions, and even from the start the Defilers who open the game have a couple guys holding guns (1 modern 1 futuristic) in their picture.