Firefighter OCCs

[TACPfirefighter]

Why is there like 15 or 20 different police OCC in rifts currently why other than Nema chaos earth, there are zero fire fighter or rescue occ represented?

Anyone have thoughts on this sounds like a good rifter article perhaps

[drewkitty ~..~]

why.....cause they are not seen as a combat class.

[TACPfirefighter]

Yeah I think the same thing people keep forgetting all the medical and rescue capabilities that a fire fighter brings. For example most of the breaching techniques were developed by heavy rescue teams.

[Tor]

Dead Reign has stats for firefighters as one of the various 'normal people' OCC background options. I believe they get a perception bonus when it relates to fires/smoke or something like that.

[TACPfirefighter]

Heres the issue i have is we always see medics but they are simplified, modern fire fighters are more akin to what Roscoes of Chaos Earth represents so i still don't see why we don't have at least one in say Northern Guns they just came out with rescue and fire power armor.

We have alot of non combat OCCs so i still don't see why one hasn't been produced in some other supplements a few times over.

rogue scholar...non combat....Fixer non combat

So the non combat excuse just doesn't seem to fly for me.....sounds like they were just neglected is all want to see some love given to our primary first responders; if cops don't handle it Fire Departments are expected to.

[ShadowLogan]

Why is there like 15 or 20 different police OCC in rifts currently why other than Nema chaos earth, there are zero fire fighter or rescue occ represented?

Anyone have thoughts on this sounds like a good rifter article perhaps

Robotech 2E Macross Saga Sourcebook has a Firefighter MOS option for the Civilian OCC.

Firefighter might be preceived as too Civilian, but there are skills one can take in other OCCs (Firefighting Skill is a Technical Skill per RUE), since Rifts really doesn't do "civilian" in my mind. IIRC Firefighting Equipment was included in Vampire SB (or was supposed to). I don't have that book, but recall that as a selling point.

You could also create your OCC if nothing else. But keep in mind that some Magic and Psionic classes can potentially be firefighters w/o any skills or special equipment. Ex. the Burster can extinguish a fire in a 200ft radius per level, at a range of 100ft +10ft per level.

[TACPfirefighter]

First thing is provide medical support to the team, secondly primary Axe melee specialist. Plus with alot of the technical skills the only firefighter class has they can jury rig alot of stuff for the team.

I won't even go into counter vampire ops he would be the man with any water device.

Yeah if i did create a fire fighter OCC i think the Chaos Earth one did a great job with that

My only point is how common are bursters and other people with psyonic or magic abilities training someone to fight fires is alot easier then finding someone special abilities to do it.

[Tinker Dragoon]

In the high-tech urban centers, it is conceivable that traditional firefighting is handled entirely by robots, cyborgs, and automated fire-suppression systems, with police and medical personnel handling non-hazardous fire duties.

Likewise, the wilderness communities presumably don't have the facilities to train a proper fire department. Firefighting could just be a skill practiced by any number of classes in this case.

Then again, we've got freaking mining 'borgs. There's no particular reason NOT to have a firefighter O.C.C.

[TACPfirefighter]

Its not different then a cop what does he do if we are not investigating things?....hes just another gun for the team

A firefighter not fighting fires is an additional Medic for the team plus with there technical skills

Long term is no different from any character.....rifts is about limitless potential to play anything so I posed the question based on we keep printing different cop OCCs but we don't waste a page to try new things

I see your point but we have robot soldiers but we still have civilian to manage them who have training focused on warfare i believe that you might have dual trained EMS/Firefighters managing those robots as well.

[taalismn]

From a technological perspective, megadamage EBA, vibroblades, robots, and the like have apparently 'simplified' firefighting tasks, making the partially trained volunteers all the more capable(NOT! Buildings, improperly entered, can still collapse on poorly executed rescue attempts, trapping them and any potential rescuees until EBA air supplies run out or armor gets bent to joint-breaking).
But I suspect that's part of the big reason. Smaller communities just likely rely on volunteers in EBA(the local militia), full conversion cyborgs, or PA and Robot jocks with big buckets to perform fire and rescue work, rather than professionally-trained experts akin to the NEMA 'Roscoes'. If they're lucky(or very tolerant), they might have the services of friendly bursters, mages with appropriate spells, or Elemental Warlocks to snuff out fires and perform rescue work.

[Morik]

A principled Burster would make a good firefighter. Skill selection would be tricky but I bet he has all the right tools.

[Premier]

I can only speak from a minor developmental segment of the Firefighter PA & NG-XP54 Enforcer Guardsman PA, that with the task of being a major supplier to many communities, mercs and explorers, not to mention to protect its own territories and establishments, that NG would have sought to fill these niches with suitable units as much as possible. Just imaging the law enforcement structure and procedures and what would be required in a major city that has D-bees and a diverse array of cyborgs would entail and require some sort of strategic PAs to not only chase down and successfully secure such formidable adversaries should they run amuck but to also cause the least amount of collateral damage to the community, its structures and innocent bystanders as possible.

From a sustained role playing stand point, selecting such an OCC equipped with these types of PA could still provide quite a bit of RPG experiences and support, especially a Firefighter or NG Med-Rec PA. Firefighters are excellent for players who are compassionate team players who enjoy supporting or rescuing characters or beings or doing damage control before things get out of hand. Combatively speaking they are awesome against vampires, and with a few tweaks I can envision an innovative NG-F302 Water cannon discharging numerous customized options:

1. Various extremes of temperature water to scold and then switch to ice cold waters upon living creatures/beings. This may not kill but it will cause considerable pain and discouragement to most wildlife.

2. Upgrading the cannon to a hydro cutter where it can emit the sand like crystals in conjunction with the water under the high pressure to cut through thick hides, armor and constructs may also be a nice customization.

3. Spraying any numerous forms of chemicals/bio-agents opens this PA up to a whole new ball game. From acid, liquid nitrogen, liquid compounds that are hostile if mixed, solidifying foam to any form of liquid concocted toxins in Rifts.

4. Developing more tank configurations and a multiple valve system that can still function utilizing the voice command or gun control selectors gives the pilot even more options for combat, sabotage and rescue.

These are just for starters. Really depends on the character/player and what they are anticipating to go up against or how to perform. Perhaps the firefighter is very capable at firefighting but is also a well versed Chemist. So they collect and or make various fluid tanks and load onto the PA what they discern will fulfill their various ops.

So rather the player is defending NG or some outskirt populace or traveling with a group of adventurers this OCC can be very entertaining and a nice Role Playing challenge and break from the monotony of focused combatant gaming.

just my 2 cents

[Bill]

At one point, I considered doing a series of games based around a fire house in the Burbs of Chitown. It seemed like a fun opportunity to focus on detective work while touching on science fiction firefighting technology and exploring the divide between the haves and have-nots. I really wanted to kit them out with bright red older model SAMAS units modified to deal with fires rather than front-line combat. I didn't get as far as designing classes for the series though. Really, I don't see the need. Elite RPA with a couple appropriate related skills ought to do the job for most of the axemen. A technical officer or a (not so) rogue scientist written up as a forensic investigator and a body fixer or cyberdoc would round out the team.

I still think the idea has a lot of potential, I just don't see the need to write up more classes for a niche that hasn't needed to be filled up to this point. Though really that can be said of almost any "new" class at this point, so by all means do if the spirit moves you.

[Tor]

we've got freaking mining 'borgs. There's no particular reason NOT to have a firefighter O.C.C.

Are you saying miners are less important?

When has a firefighter ever done anything important?

Unless of course you mean this kind of fire fighter.

[ShadowLogan]

First thing is provide medical support to the team, secondly primary Axe melee specialist. Plus with alot of the technical skills the only firefighter class has they can jury rig alot of stuff for the team.

A variety of classes can already provide the medical support though, and likely as good if not better than a fire fighter.

As a melee specialist, there aren't a whole lot of examples of Axe bonuses, so short of a new class and/or skills they would be just some guy (or gal) with an axe and W.P. Axe.

And an operator or TW can also jury rig a lot of the stuff for the team with proper mechanical and electrical skills (not technical).

My only point is how common are bursters and other people with psyonic or magic abilities training someone to fight fires is alot easier then finding someone special abilities to do it.

Unknown how common they are. But some areas may not see as much a need for firefighters because of it.

Firefighting could just be a skill practiced by any number of classes in this case.

This is very much the case as there is a Skill in RUE in the Technical Section called Fire fighting.

The main problem with making a firefighter (and even the skill) is how to actually handle the fire fighting aspect in terms of game mechanics. Otherwise one is most likely going to have a story only aspect for fighting the fire or dealing with difficulties encountered.

[taalismn]

we've got freaking mining 'borgs. There's no particular reason NOT to have a firefighter O.C.C.

Are you saying miners are less important?

When has a firefighter ever done anything important?

Unless of course you mean this kind of fire fighter.

A show with great RPG potential.


But on the topic of who would make good firefighters?
Full Conversion cyborgs, because they're virtually fireproof, have built-in breathers, and have thermo-optical vision.
BodyFixers of a more phsyical bent.
For sheer daring-do and fearlessness, Crazies and Juices...not so much EMT work, but need somebody to dash into a burning building and rescue a trapped person? Between the Crazies who eitehr wanted to be astronauts, cowboys, or firefighters when young, or the Juicers who figure "I can get through the front door, up the stairs, into the bedroom, and out the window in NOTHING flat!", we've got you covered.
CS Grunts and CS police OCCs...especially garrison troopers.

[kaid]

While I think another firefighter OCC could be useful in the grand scheme of things when you have power armor designed as fire fighting rigs a lot of the normal figher fighter training becomes less necessary. You are strong enough to punch your way into where ever you need to go to apply water directly to the heart of the fire with little to no danger from heat or building collapse. With the robotic medical kits stabalizing of victims for transport does not require any EMT skills/knowledge on the fire fighters part just where to place the unit and how to turn it on.

With the psychic population it is highly likely that a lot of psyhics that have pyrokinesis or are full out bursters get employed as reserve firefighter units that can be called up as needed since they can with minimal effort simply shut a housefire down at will.

In a place like lazlo a strict fire fighting position is even less necessary. There are many magic types that can maniuplate fire/water that could squelch a fire within no time and minimal effort.

[taalismn]

While I think another firefighter OCC could be useful in the grand scheme of things when you have power armor designed as fire fighting rigs a lot of the normal figher fighter training becomes less necessary. You are strong enough to punch your way into where ever you need to go to apply water directly to the heart of the fire with little to no danger from heat or building collapse. With the robotic medical kits stabalizing of victims for transport does not require any EMT skills/knowledge on the fire fighters part just where to place the unit and how to turn it on.

.

True, but there's going to be some trial and error...sending a heavy power armor in after a fire, only to plunge into the basement because the floor won't accept your weight...or inadvertantly punching through a gas line and turning a smouldering kitchen blaze into a neighborhood-blasting fuel-air explosion don't give amateur fire brigades a good rep. So SOME training's going to be needed...either that, or very good insurance coverage.

[kaid]

I would be pretty surprised if any community on rifts earth makes much use of natural gas in housing. Given the advanced nuclear plants they clearly have access to and the difficulty in setting up and maintaining natural gas fields and their potential vulnerability I would find it pretty odd to see natural gas being used other than maybe if a town was literally sitting on top of an oil field.

The big danger would be more industrial fires with various chemicals but power armor setup to fire fight also likely has chem sensors to give warnings of hazardous chemicals being detected.

Also one thing to note but most naval service men are trained heavily in fire fighting techniques and damage control and you would likely see the same in the guard forces in fortress cities so less of a dedicated fire fighting service than a lot of military people who pick up a skill or two to fill those slots as needed.

[taalismn]

I would be pretty surprised if any community on rifts earth makes much use of natural gas in housing. Given the advanced nuclear plants they clearly have access to and the difficulty in setting up and maintaining natural gas fields and their potential vulnerability I would find it pretty odd to see natural gas being used other than maybe if a town was literally sitting on top of an oil field..

There's biogas methane too(not always from [ig dung). But my example was to illustrate that there are many situations where you DON'T want to just plow into a structure without some forethought, especially if there's somebody in danger inside.
"You gained access to the house, but almost immediately collapsed it on everybody inside it. Nice going, 'Iron Man'!"

[Tor]

Aside from water warlocks (mentioned by George and taal) there's also water shamans from spirit west...

I remember there being a Soaker psychic in the Rifters (non-canon) and then wasn't there an official water-Burster type class in Lemuria? Forget name.

There's also 'kinetic psionics from Nightbane Between which could select an amplified hydrokinesis.

Also, I think fire/earth/air warlocks all have the capacity to battle fires as well.

[taalismn]

Summoning a Water Elemental in the middle of an industrial fire...cure might almost be worse than the disease...

[say652]

Burster. Or one of the numerous things impervious to fire. Jussayin.

[Tor]

Oh, one of those Bio-Borgs in the Rifter that's canon but got left out of Splynn Dimensional Market.

Fire-spitter...vomiter... or whatever.

[say652]

Since the goal is putting out fires. And emt paramedic training and climbing and driving trucks and wp:axe.
I did the vff thing for a minute. Basically any fool willung to risk death to save some one would fit.
I think we are focusing to much on mystic abilities and not enough on tge amount of balls it takes to just do the job.

Any occ can be a fireman. All it takes is bravery and a few medical skills

[Killer Cyborg]

In the high-tech urban centers, it is conceivable that traditional firefighting is handled entirely by robots, cyborgs, and automated fire-suppression systems, with police and medical personnel handling non-hazardous fire duties.

Likewise, the wilderness communities presumably don't have the facilities to train a proper fire department. Firefighting could just be a skill practiced by any number of classes in this case.

Then again, we've got freaking mining 'borgs. There's no particular reason NOT to have a firefighter O.C.C.

The CS doesn't trust robots much, so I don't think they'd use them to fight fires.
Cyborgs and automated fire-suppression, yes. Lots of that.
But as you point out, that's an excuse to have a Fire Borg OCC.

I also think that in some places, Bursters or Fire/Water Warlocks would handle it.

[say652]

Praire fires. Jussayin

[Crucible]

I really REALLY like the Roscoes.

[Tor]

Fire-fighter-borgs would also make pretty good anti-vamp guys.

Come to think of it, Momano Headhunters in Rifts Canada have water-blasting bionics, though might be TW in nature to avoid carrying the tank. The Vampire Kingdoms water stuff for vamps would also be good for fire-dousing.

[TACPfirefighter]

I like the fact when you look at a roscoe he capture all of the skills a real firefighter has.

[Richardson]

I see only one person so far mentioning the obvious. Fully Environmental Body Armor. All EBA makes a person essentially immune to common fire, so walking into a burning building is pretty dang easy. Additionally even if the house falls on you you can be dug out and more or less no worse for wear thanks to the same generic armor (I think Aftermath did give rules for HF for being buried alive in rubble and timetables to get someone out though). Vibro knives were originally invented to sheer rubble, building materials, piping, etc. quickly and easily allowing for improvised entry ways, clearing materials off of trapped people/equipment/etc. Axes are nice, but the common vibro knife will slice through a standard door faster than the wind.

MD fires are arguably even easier since they run out of fuel to burn effectively immediately unless there is a mega-napalm chucker nearby. And MDC building materials (duracrete or whatever they cal it) are immune to SDC fire so while the insides may burn the flames effectively never leave the first building; never hopping from roof to roof like the great fires of the past in Chicago or London. Places built almost entirely of older SCD wood and drywall likely rarely have the funds capable of supporting a full time firefighting force of specially trained individuals, which makes it even more important for the townfolk to form a bucket chain while the sheriff and his deputies (likely the only EBA in town) run inside to rescue people.

[taalismn]

And even old style handpumpers are effective in small town fires if you got cyborgs or amped-up human types like Juicers working the pumps.
Of course, the Crazies would insist on standing on the pumper while it's being dragged through the streets, ringing the bell(if not actually MAKING fire siren sounds with their mouths).

[TACPfirefighter]

So people with very little training start bucking debris around and cause debris to shift crushing the victims there trying to save. You guys are missing the point firefighters have 4 times the tech there predecessors had in the old days and require 5 times the training and knowledge to get the job done. Cool I got a computer that tells me how to fight fires damn it mdc debris fell on my screen and cracked it. Damn it what do I do now o wait I grab the guy who's actually trained professionally how to do it. Let's be real here modern fires burn hotter and faster then fires 20 years ago. Now throw in mdc material that now will burn hotter and longer. Yeah don't think sheriff bumpkins going to be able to handle that

[Richardson]

I think people die in this post apocalyptic future. A lot. I think demons are waiting in the woods, dinosaurs in the swaps, witches and black faeries are trying to steal my baby, and I still don't have my crops harvested because the damn bandits used plasma weaponry on it during a fight against adventurers a few months back and the land hasn't recovered. Pardon me if a little fire doesn't sound quite so threatening as the vampires who live across the river. My tax credits go to the militia and defenses because the alternative is unthinkable!

[ShadowLogan]

So people with very little training start bucking debris around and cause debris to shift crushing the victims there trying to save. You guys are missing the point firefighters have 4 times the tech there predecessors had in the old days and require 5 times the training and knowledge to get the job done. Cool I got a computer that tells me how to fight fires damn it mdc debris fell on my screen and cracked it. Damn it what do I do now o wait I grab the guy who's actually trained professionally how to do it. Let's be real here modern fires burn hotter and faster then fires 20 years ago. Now throw in mdc material that now will burn hotter and longer. Yeah don't think sheriff bumpkins going to be able to handle that

I do agree with both sides here. There are going to be communities that can afford to hire highly skilled firefighters, but there are also ones that won't be able to. A major NA city would almost need a high skilled firefighter, but some small village/town in the middle of nowhere likely won't and will be able to get by (not every community has a dedicate fire department after all).

Remember "tech" levels vary widely across the world (Rifts and in RL), so it is possible to have no uniform approach to fire fighting due to their "technology level" could have them operate as people did in other eras for the most part.

[Nightmask]

I think people die in this post apocalyptic future. A lot. I think demons are waiting in the woods, dinosaurs in the swaps, witches and black faeries are trying to steal my baby, and I still don't have my crops harvested because the damn bandits used plasma weaponry on it during a fight against adventurers a few months back and the land hasn't recovered. Pardon me if a little fire doesn't sound quite so threatening as the vampires who live across the river. My tax credits go to the militia and defenses because the alternative is unthinkable!

I imagine the fire you're caught in is WAY more threatening than some vampires who can't get to you because they can't cross the river between you and them. Burning to death is pretty horrific and you have to worry about something as common as that way more than the demon stealing the kids and considering plasma weapons are a great way to set off a fire along with many other energy weapons and such having people skilled at dealing with fires would be a VERY good idea. You aren't going to care about those destroyed crops if you're already dead from the forest fire set off by the fight after all.

[Richardson]

I imagine the fire you're caught in is WAY more threatening than some vampires who can't get to you because they can't cross the river between you and them. Burning to death is pretty horrific and you have to worry about something as common as that way more than the demon stealing the kids and considering plasma weapons are a great way to set off a fire along with many other energy weapons and such having people skilled at dealing with fires would be a VERY good idea. You aren't going to care about those destroyed crops if you're already dead from the forest fire set off by the fight after all.

People don't fear common though Nightmask. Nor do they fear rationally. I remember when we weren't allowed to open mail at my job because the management was convinced someone would send us anthrax like they saw on fox news. We were an art store! Statistically the odds of dying in a car crash are WAY higher than a plane crash, but significantly more people are afraid of flying than driving. A comic post was making its way around Facebook my wife was showing me illustrating people's honest fears which included such things as "If I go ice skating and trip, the person next to me will slice my fingers off as they skate past," and the commentary was ALL in agreement that these were real fears they all had even though the majority were technically impossible like "I can't sleep with a mirror facing my bed because I fear my reflection stays up at night staring at me." Sensationalism, the influence of the media, the dark, the unknown, the LURKING dangers we actually can't do anything to prepare about are the things that get people's attention and catch their psyches and wallets. Now pretend that the government, media (also CS Propaganda), and your neighbors ENCOURAGED those irrational fears because there actually WAS a chance they would happen. That's the Rifts setting. The odds of a perfect stranger abducting your child in real life? Actually next to nil. The odds of a dark necromancer abducting your child in Rifts? Still absurdly low but it's ALL over the news every time it happens; ideally with footage of a pack of dog boys ripping the diabolic spellcaster to shreds as a Psi Corp veteran weeps tears of rage over the mutilated child corpse cradled in his arms to inspire even MORE fear in the general populace to feed the war machine. In real life I literally have never met a single person afraid of fire or dying in a fire, but I know plenty who are honestly afraid of clowns.

As I understand it modern firefighting came about as a public service because a single fire could/would spread across multiple fields, multiple buildings, and consume blocks of a city at a time. It wasn't loss of life so much as disruption of the social machine as businesses, consumer goods, and public property were destroyed en mass dealing dangerous blows to the economic lifeblood of a city which was the primary factor in large, efficient fire fighting forces becoming a reality. Real firefighting forces did not come about until more or less the 20th century because economically no one gave a monkey's hiney about fires (unless they happened to them of course) until fat cats with influence in local government started losing fortunes at a time in the Industrial Age where fortunes were falling like ripe fruit from the tree of capitalism. The Rifts setting, as written, deals with basic survival and ignored masses of humanity only barely coming out of a self-described Dark Age of terror and helplessness.

Yeah. Burning to death is one of the most horrible ways to go. That's why we do it to witches and heretics. But it doesn't capture the imagination the way vampires and blood rituals do.

[eliakon]

Just a question.....why would we NEED a specialized OCC for firefighters?
No, seriously. I am curious as to what the difference between say taking some other class and taking Firefighting, Paramedic, Excavation and W.P. Axe as OCC Related skills (or even as the OCC skills since many classes can take a technical of choice as an OCC skill) and a specialized Fire Fighter OCC would be?
(side note, for me I just use the CE Roscoe as my professional fire fighters, the above for my semi-pros and call it good)

[ShadowLogan]

Just a question.....why would we NEED a specialized OCC for firefighters?
No, seriously. I am curious as to what the difference between say taking some other class and taking Firefighting, Paramedic, Excavation and W.P. Axe as OCC Related skills (or even as the OCC skills since many classes can take a technical of choice as an OCC skill) and a specialized Fire Fighter OCC would be?
(side note, for me I just use the CE Roscoe as my professional fire fighters, the above for my semi-pros and call it good)

The main need would be in the terms of proficiency. As an OCC skill the necessary skills are likely to have a better bonus than taken as an other/secondary skill in many cases (if not all of them). Given the direction that OCCs have taken since the MB with more and more having unique abilities (skills/bonuses/talents, what ever), said OCC could also have unique abilities we aren't thinking of.

Exampels of unique/limited abilities:
-They could be more proficient at suiting up and setting up fire fighting gear than a regular OCC with the same skills. Ex. IIRC Body Armor in some settings favors M@A classes in terms of suit up time and what they can wear effectively.
-they could have higher tolerances to heat (Saloon bums get similar to drink), and aren't as effected by smoke obscuring their vision, likely not as good as a Burster
-they could have better bonuses with an Axe, more likely in terms of strike and called shots
-knowledge could be more complete than the skills in question

[taalismn]

Communities like the Chi-Town and Australian arcologies are the most likely to have a pure-quill 'Roscoe' descendent, because the sheer density of structures, both residential and industrial, and possible conduits for spreading combustion, makes the threat of fire as serious as a spreading fire on a ship or aircraft. There you'll have expert first responders who can focus almost entirely on firefighting and rescue, and leave the shooting to the police and military guardsmen who are thick in such communities. Further out, say, into the 'burbs, you see prof. firefighters with greater weapons training, and complementing Men-at-Arms with rescue training, because there's a greater chance of coming under attack from brigands or monsters. Further out is where you start seeing the adhoc fire brigades and more of a focus on volunteers relying on their technology(with a greater loss of life due to miscalculations). The wholly 100% professional firefighters in the wilderness are going to be exceptions, ex-veterans from the cities(perhaps fugitives), really altruistic missionaries passing on their training to the country-folk, or d-bees who have their own versions of Roscoes(maybe the d-bees are first-responders who fell through a Rift while trying to contain a fire or other disaster at a laboratory or temple).