Obviously the competitive rules docket is still a work in progress, but I'll be interested to see what requirements/restrictions/errata are in play.
Presumably that will need to be sorted out in the next 3 months or so, to give people time to adapt their lists/figures/etc as required, so there's time yet, but with the holidays eating up a lot of December, it's not a ton of time either.
Reading over the 'unofficial errata' thread reminded me of this one.
Whether or not PB has an official errata/FAQ available, it seems like it'd be a good idea for the tournament organizers to look over that list of questions (and others as they pop up) and to sort out answers ahead of time. Giving the potential players at least a weeks notice (ideally more, as what people can and can't take might lead to some needing to buy and build/paint more figures) seems like a good idea, and there's only 11 weeks until Adepticon 2015.
Now, of course, if PB releases such documents in the next 10 weeks, it's less of an issue (there'll probably still be fringe cases that need addressing), but simple things like "how many times can a Battloid fire in a turn?" and "are 'named' characters unique for force construction?" kind of queries need to have definitive answers ready long before tables are being set up. Note; those are just rhetorical examples.
Edit: hell, even the points required to play will be a factor people will need a lot of notice for, considering how long building multiple squads can take, all the moreso if there's a painting requirement.
If this is being run by the 2 players I think it is [Phaze and another], they will be providing the mini's and such.
Phaze is one of the people currently working on Tournament rules for Palladium.
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I think a tournament format should consist of playing two games per round: one game as the RDF faction and one as either malcontents or zentraedi. Otherwise you will see veritech vs. veritech lists everywhere. Basically a similar set up to how the Star Wars CCG was played.
Especially with it as a fairly new game, the forces would have to be awfully small, assuming the rounds were an hour or so apiece.
Magic's 'best 2 out of 3' and Netrunner's 'play both sides' approach work because the games generally (not always, but usually) finish up in 10-20 minutes or so. A minis game generally has a longer lead/setup and play through time frame.
That said, I don't see the problem with people playing the RDF/UEDF/WhateverDF. If that's what they want to buy, build and play, what's wrong with it? Rebels vs Rebels and Imperials vs Imperials are part of the X-Wing tournament scene and it hasn't been an issue that I'm aware of.
Kryptt, that's all well and fine but why the heck list it as a tournament if it's really a huge demo? Listing as a tournament tells me and many other players that participate in those that we need to bring armies of a certain size, everything we need to play and army lists. Putting down "huge all day demo" I expect all things provided for players.
It will also be a house rule tournament too unless Palladium releases a faq/errata/tournament rules sometime in the next few weeks.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
Well, that's just an 'I think' musing. Until we hear from Phaze and/or [another] about the particulars, it's more of an academic thing.
I just thought I'd give a little push to get people talking and thinking about it. The more minds and eyes we put on the matter, the less likely important things are going to be overlooked.
rosco60559 wrote:Can we stop calling it a tournament? If the lists and figs are provided it's a demo.
Not for thing but having to provide one's own army isn't the only way to run a tournament.
I've been in a tournament that provided the forces. The winner was the person who was able to out think/play his opponents with whatever forces were given and not with overthought/tweaked armies built by the players themselves.
If there are multiple players, multiple rounds and in the end there is a definitive winner who receives a prize for winning, that IS a tournament, whether you agree about that or not.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
If you are the person running the event at Adepticon Please have the convention add more information to the official website. There is an Event Rules and Resources page that list tournament rules and Army List limits. If you just post it here I would be worried about being burned, seeing it on the official site is backed up.
We need to know: Do we need to bring forces? What is the point total? Are there additional rule not in the book especially since many units have to been released yet. In what condition do minis have to be in, painted or number of colors anything like that. Is it just the current mini allowed? If someone has the Battletech minis or old Palladium Metals or even toys, Matchbox Robotech small toys ( I don't know if they fit on the base or not but been meaning to check.) or Japanese import Macross toys.
I am signup for the game and currently working on building my Zentraedi and learning to work with plastic. If I don't need to rush to get them done they will look better.
Still does not say if all three factions are in play.
Why do you need to flocked the bases for Space? Is black the color of space? That what I used on my starships and I think everyone starships I have seen except for some clear ones.
I was planing on leaving the stands black because they cold be in so many different environments. Flocked base would just ruin the spacebattle.
they are alrady black. not sure why they need ot be painted/decorated at all.
Also, why would those of us who are not good painters or for that matter modellers going to be essentially penalized for it according to your scoring section? Shouldn't scoring be done on as even a playing field as possible?
I'd like to get into tournys at some point but if this is indicative of scoring in tournys I won't bother as I cannot paint all that well nor do I have the skill to slice up my minis for custom posing and if that is going to essentially deny me points then count me out.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
the entire con is PAINTED ONLY for registered tournaments and the includes basing the model
as far as the bases put some yellow or white stripes on there and say you're on a street.
from the way it reads anything goes as long as it's what you see is what you get, so even that half and half fo...I mean malcontents are in as long as you have the models.
if you don't want to paint your stuff and play in the big tourneys there, they have an area for pick up games where it doesn't matter, and no shot at prizes.
Well hopefully the Gencon rules don't include the basing requirements, as I prefer plain black bases for my figures, and am using some clear acrylic flight stands for my Fighters/Guardians that I'd rather not muck up with paint or 'debris'.
I can respect those that put the time, skill and effort into basing figures, but while I'll accept painting the figures as 'part of the hobby' and an expectation, I don't think basing is nearly as absolute. And wonder if everyone will remember to base while still leaving the appropriate facing arrows visible.
As an aside, at this scale, a 6 inch wide dividing line from a street would be less than half a millimeter across.
Edit: further fun: a 40mm base represents an area nearly 32 feet across. And anything human-scale on it is going to be *small*.
Last edited by Forar on Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am unsure who is running this. So could the real Tournament Organizer for Adepticon please stand up. If you want to run a tourney we have some useful information (errata and such) that could help you pull this off.
Thanks!
I'll still enjoy watching you get blown off the table while you stare in helpless wonder at Phaze's marching legions of colored perfection. -- Godsgopher
I was not referring to not painting at all rosco....in the scoring section it seems to indicate BETTER paint jobs will get points over NOT AS WELL done paint jobs. I get that hey need to be painted. I am going to paint mine. My point is it is not encouraging to me to sign up if I am going to get essentially penalized because i cannot paint as well as others or slice up my model to do custom posing and such,
From the PDF:
The below are the categories that will be used for finding the winner: o Sportsmanship o Paint Quality o Display Boards o Theme o Conversions o Battle Points
So if I question a ruling I may get penalized. If my paint job is not that good I may get effectively penalized Display Boards? And this is what? Theme? I guess if my units are not colour coordinated that I may get penalized So I may get effectively penalized for not custom posing my minis Essentially the only thing I can get hopefully fair scoring is in the games themselves....
And this is to get me to enter a tournament how exactly?
If you want to award Paint jobs, themes, or conversions then have a separate contest for that. The tournament should be about the gameplay.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
And it has a lot to say about using the correct size/shape of base, but nothing about 'basing' in terms of paint or flock.
Specifically, 5 and 6.
"5. The size and shape of all model bases MUST be appropriate for the given game system. Models, such as vehicles that do not require bases MUST maintain the intended size, shape, aesthetic consistency and height of the model represented.
6. Models that were once historically supplied with smaller bases (e.g., older Terminators) are still legal models; although it is REQUIRED that you update them to the current base size for the applicable game system. Models that are supplied with two different types of bases (e.g., Chaos Daemons) must be fielded on the base type that is appropriate for the applicable game system (e.g., Chaos Daemons on square bases are NOT allowed in Warhammer 40K events)."
Edit: I don't think the basing rules are Adepticon specific. I think it's the person (apparently not Phaze) running the event's preference.
jaymz wrote:If you want to award Paint jobs, themes, or conversions then have a separate contest for that. The tournament should be about the gameplay.
Every tournament I have played in (40K, Warhammer, Warmachine, Malfuax (sp), even Historical Miniature battles) all took the quality of the assembly, painting, and basing into account in some form or another, whether it was by peer judging or by a panel of artists and modelers. Competitive play is but only one aspect of the game. As we have seen, more so by those who are new to miniature games, the assembly and painting of these miniatures are a large factor in the time and effort to play this game. Why would we not take that into consideration?
Just as the competitive play appeals to you, the hobby aspect appeals to others. To label a tournament winner of Robotech RPG Tactics, one must consider all aspects of the road that got you there.
I'll still enjoy watching you get blown off the table while you stare in helpless wonder at Phaze's marching legions of colored perfection. -- Godsgopher
Could you not put that as a separate contest then as opposed to scoring it as part of the game tourney itself?
The playing of the game should be what determines a winner not if you happen to do a great paint job or do custom posing of your minis.
Painting and modelling is not part of the game. It is part of the hobby. The two are related but not exclusively tied together as one thing.
I guess I won't be playing in or running any tournaments if this is normal and how tourneys are run. There is zero incentive to do so if my paint job and modelling are going to penalize me and I won't penalize others that way either. It should be about who plays the game the best.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
I don't painting contests for a reason. I know I cannot compete. This makes it discouraging to even play in a game tourney since I have to be a good painter to apparently get fair shake.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
While I understand some people like the idea that painting should factor into the rankings, just as a hypothetical.
Jaymz tries hard, but due to artistic limitations, isn't able to convert, and is able to do a bog-standard 3 colour paintjob that looks pretty shabby (but still better than I'd be capable of) Forar commissions a Golden Daemon level painter to Convert, Theme, Paint and "Display Board" (whatever that means), his army.
Forar is a complete pain to play against and loses every game. And Jaymz is accommodating and friendly, and wins every game.
But because Forar is able to pony up the cash, he ends with a higher ranking. And will, in pretty much every tournament they'll play, according to those rules (assuming the categories are evenly distributed).
That's why while having an outlet for the artistic expression is understandable, it's really got no business factoring into tournament rankings. And trying to disallow "commissioned works" doesn't really work either.
"No, this isn't commissioned work, I'm just that good.
What? Sorry, I don't have time to sit down and show off my talents. I need my tools, and my space, which is perfectly set up via feng shui to achieve the best results from the painstaking work that goes into each and every figure.
... no I don't want to discuss how awesome this year's bonus at Giant Corporation Where I'm Overpaid LLC was."
jaymz wrote:I guess I won't be playing in or running any tournaments if this is normal and how tourneys are run.
I wouldn't judge all tournaments by what this one is doing. I've played in (and ran) many events were the only score was battle points.
I've never been to an Adepticon, but from what I understand it has a huge GW event presence, and GW runs all their events with this style of scoring system. I've played in a few GW events, and from what I recall of the 5 categories, battle points had the biggest weight, with sportsmanship second. The rest were primarily used for secondary prizes. It's how the event coordinator ran our events, this one may be different.
What's more odd to me is the 400pt limit. Why not keep it in increments of 150pt to align with the force building rules, so 450pts. At 400pts you need to run a 3rd squadron (since you're over 300), but handicapped a bit since you're 50pts shy of the next level. That and the overall commander with custom characters allowed.
I've played in many tournaments at Adepticon. This list for scoring looks copy pasted from another tournament document. However, I will say this. Painting isn't as big of a deal as you think. As long as your paint job is a decent 3 color minimum (minimum being basic even coats of 3 different colors)...you will receive a base painting score of 'X' where X usually means middle of the road in terms of a number. While I don't have knowledge of how the scoring system will work for this event..I can say..as a former Adepticon Painting judge for the 40k Team Tournament...that a basic paint job will get you the defacto middle of the road score. Conversions I wouldn't worry about as much...since that's like maybe a point or two at best. Basing...I wouldn't sweat it either. Put some white dots on your base and your bases are space themed. If you don't like that...you can easily cover them up later with black paint. The weighting of the scoring is usually 70% battle points...and 30% everything else in most cases..so winning your games still matters the most. The "soft" scores are there for people that are terrible at the game...can maybe lose all their games but still be in contention for a soft score prize. They will probably have a best general prize...which is strictly who has the most battle points for the day. Adepticon builds their events for all kinds of people. So the hobbyist, fluff bunny, or hardcore gamer each have something to shoot for in a tournament. If you are a ball buster competitive gamer...do the bare minimum to get average marks in the soft scores...and then curb stomp your opponents in the games. Following that formula usually will net you a top 3 finish overall.
Then you haven't seen the 350+ comment 'discussion' going on across Mike's page.
Suffice to say, there are... controversial aspects. I'd go into detail, but I'm decidedly in 'one camp', and lest I get accused of letting my bias through, I'll say simply that there are parts some people are less happy about than others.
Nope still not a big deal. That line of 350 comments is something I'm not getting dragged into over there. Most if them don't want to paint or do anything to the bases, others I'm sure think the character thing is a huh??? moment. Clearly they are too hung up on the rules to go have fun, get what 4 guaranteed games in? And of course hopefully meet new players. Who knows while there someone that's decent at painting might inspire or give them tips on working on their stuff or they might make new friends.
Actually, the primary concern I've seen expressed has been that non-gameplay aspects seem to represent a surprising and disproportionate amount towards standings for the event.
You might want to actually read the discussion before painting it with such a broad brush.
As Forar pointed out it's how non gameplay elements can determine who may win what ostensibly a gameplay tournament. I have seen no one advocate not painting at as you infer. As for the bases, they nice as is with markers for arc and Los as well as for unit markers. To paint or decorate can and will interfere with the visibility of those markers.
Why should I penalized for not painting my base on irder to better see those markers and to better play by the rules in a gameplay tournament?
Furthermore, why should I essentially be put at a disadvantage since I do not have the skill to paint well (and it is not a matter f practice will make me better, I just do not have the hands for it) or have thousands of dollars to throw away for a professional paint job?
I have fun playing the game but knowing I may lose because my minis are not a pretty as someone else's is the opposite of fun and lessens any motivation I have to enter such things.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
Jaymz, I think your point of view on this tournament is a little off. If this tournament is going to be run like the other Adepticon events...your paint job won't affect your ability to "win" the best general award...which is strictly who has the most battle points. Best General is all about wins and the amount of battle points you scored in those wins. The award is all about game play. It will, however, affect your ability to win the best Overall award. Like I said, I can't speak to how this event will be run..as currently...it's the only tournament I've seen so far for this game on a "national" level. Prizes for Adepticon tournaments are spread across certain categories to encourage participation...not discourage participation. So most likely this tournament will have prizes for: Best Painted, Best Themed, Best Sportsman, Best General, Best Overall. This allows a skilled painter and fluff guy to enter the tournament...play some games and possibly win the Painted/Theme award...yet could go 0-4. Best Sportsman would be the player that had the highest sportsmanship score for the day. Best Overall would be the player that has the highest combined score of his Battle points, Paint points, Sports points combined. Best general is the player that had the highest battle points total for the day...and most likely went 4-0. So while you may feel you are being penalized...you actually aren't. If playing the game well is all that matters for you, then play for the best general and try and go 4-0. If you have a basic paint job of 3 colors minimum...the dings to your score won't completely hamstring you if you still manage to win all your games. In most cases...you'd still have a chance to win Best Overall, but it would require a near perfect sportsmanship score...which isn't out of the realm of possibility. The bottom line is that Adepticon wants all models painted to at least a minimum standard since wargaming is a predominantly visual spectacle for everyone...and they want to have a nice visual for the casual viewers that walk the halls, etc. and the players themselves. Lastly, if you have any concerns about this event, you can contact the staff at Adepticon.org with any questions or concerns you may have. Adepticon is a great event and is worth going to regardless of the tournament itself. There is so much to see and do there. Also to Rosco's point..it's the perfect environment to meet other Robotech players, make new friends and contacts, and get 4 solid games of Robotech in for the day. In my 22 years of tournament experience...those things are more important over any single tournament or game. The coming together of like minds, drinking, socializing, and just rolling dice trumps all.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
And on Mike's page someone from Adepticon has stepped up and allayed many concerns, noting that painting isn't a fully equal portion of the standings, and that the point total for playing in it is still a work in progress and will be finalized by February 1st. So with hindsight, perhaps a bit more context would have been helpful.
Also, while not all of the criticism has been expressed constructively, personally I think some of the strawman arguments put forth (the "oh they just don't want to paint" style garbage) has been vastly more telling.
Oh well, at least the Adepticon guys are expressing appreciation for the feedback. I won't be attending (saving to possibly go to Gencon this year), but it's nice to see some professionalism from those running the convention overall.
jaymz wrote:And there inlies the issue. We. Don't know.
I'm about 85% sure it will be run like their other events as far as how scoring would go..and how prizes are handled. Adepticon is usually pretty consistent in that regard. Contact Adepticon. It's easy. Adepticon.org. They are very helpful with getting you answers.
forar, have a good time at gencon. try hitting adepticon if you can. it is all tabletop and board games, nothing else.
jaymz are you even heading to this tournament? if you're not you seem to be getting worked up over nothing. if you are just slap some paint on those models and go have fun. I quit going to tournaments due to people too wound up over the rules and my own nasty competitive streak.
No but my concern is if palladium goes this route for official tourney rules.
Regardless the issue has been clarified and the rules were greatly vague compared to reality.
There are in fact going to be separate prize categories. Whoever did that document could have avoided a lot of this as saying that instead of a generic scoring as follows to win.
I don't think many realize just how many people are new to the mini game scene with RRT.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
Invest in miniatures from a company and plan to travel somewhere for a tournament only to have them provide the miniatures. Let people use their own crap.
And where is it said the points have dropped? Big Kevin's update or the Facebook page? The rules for it on adepticon's site still haven't had the point reduction so I'm not buying into that. Until that happens I would plan for the 400 and have a backup 300 point list.
rosco - that is likely the best route....you will notice they haven't corrected the "scoring" section to indicate multiple prizes either. Also Palladium can say all it wants but they are not the ones running the tournament so whatever they say is not official as far as I know.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
