Can the Foxes become people too?

[Tor]

It makes me wonder, though the foxes tend to avoid and fear the demons, if they ever found out that beings of pure chi like demons could become human, do you think some of the foxes might also be interested in that? How would that work, if so?

One thing interesting about Damned Immortals is it almost seems to hint that at the end of the process you become a demon yourself. Not totally, it doesn't say that, but you do take on your master's demonic form and can't change back and get all the negative chi powers like Infernals do... makes me wonder if that's how Infernals reproduce.

It makes me wonder if a fox might choose to become a damned immortal to become an infernal because only demons can become humans?

[drewkitty ~..~]

To answer the topic question as written, No, because they are already people.

"Can they become 'human'?" *shrugs* there is not direct provision for them to. And there is nothing for them to 'reform' from, as infernals do.
----------
Damned Immortals, I have thought about them and have speculated that they might be how new infernals are produced. Like the next step is for them to loose their physicality as their 'true form'. *shrugs*

[Nekira Sudacne]

It makes me wonder, though the foxes tend to avoid and fear the demons, if they ever found out that beings of pure chi like demons could become human, do you think some of the foxes might also be interested in that? How would that work, if so?

One thing interesting about Damned Immortals is it almost seems to hint that at the end of the process you become a demon yourself. Not totally, it doesn't say that, but you do take on your master's demonic form and can't change back and get all the negative chi powers like Infernals do... makes me wonder if that's how Infernals reproduce.

It makes me wonder if a fox might choose to become a damned immortal to become an infernal because only demons can become humans?

I don't think so. Nothing indicates that infernals becoming human has anything to do with their being beings of pure chi, rather that they are infernal and demonic. There is nothing that indicates a precidence for beings of pure chi becoming human, because nothing indicates that the state of being a being of pure chi is relevent to the process.

[Alrik Vas]

While there may not be provision for fox spirits becoming human, do they have a transformation ability? There area lot of instances of creatures such as them disguising themselves as people and even bearing human children. I realize that palladium may do it different, but wouldn't you say by the base mythology that it could be a possibility?

[drewkitty ~..~]

One of the forms that Spirit Foxes have is a Human form. It's appearance is the same each time except for it's apparent age.

[Tor]

Nothing indicates that infernals becoming human has anything to do with their being beings of pure chi, rather that they are infernal and demonic. There is nothing that indicates a precidence for beings of pure chi becoming human, because nothing indicates that the state of being a being of pure chi is relevent to the process.

I think it only indicates that it's possible for pure chi beings to do so, not that ALL of them can do so. While it doesn't explicitly say so, I think that the Infernals (the top-ranking guys who can change shape, become Overlords, etc) are the only Chinese demons who can actually become human, it's very much what the stats and associated imagery indicate. Doubtful that centipedes, monkeys or even leopards (though if I had to nominate anyone else to be a candidate it'd be them) can do Reformation.

One of the forms that Spirit Foxes have is a Human form. It's appearance is the same each time except for it's apparent age.

The intro to the class makes it very explicit that it's just a facade and the furthest thing from human, so sadly I don't think they can mate with humans

[Nightmask]

Nothing indicates that infernals becoming human has anything to do with their being beings of pure chi, rather that they are infernal and demonic. There is nothing that indicates a precidence for beings of pure chi becoming human, because nothing indicates that the state of being a being of pure chi is relevent to the process.

I think it only indicates that it's possible for pure chi beings to do so, not that ALL of them can do so. While it doesn't explicitly say so, I think that the Infernals (the top-ranking guys who can change shape, become Overlords, etc) are the only Chinese demons who can actually become human, it's very much what the stats and associated imagery indicate. Doubtful that centipedes, monkeys or even leopards (though if I had to nominate anyone else to be a candidate it'd be them) can do Reformation.

One of the forms that Spirit Foxes have is a Human form. It's appearance is the same each time except for it's apparent age.

The intro to the class makes it very explicit that it's just a facade and the furthest thing from human, so sadly I don't think they can mate with humans

Do you mean mate or breed? Since they can surely mate with humans while appearing as human, they just can't have offspring with them.

[Tor]

I should have said procreate

[drewkitty ~..~]

One of the forms that Spirit Foxes have is a Human form. It's appearance is the same each time except for it's apparent age.

The intro to the class makes it very explicit that it's just a facade ...snip(

When talking about PB races, it is a part of the basic Megaversal Canon that each race is a separate species and can't interbreed with other races, unless otherwise noted in the racial text.

So when saying something about a race's "form" it means appearance.

[Tor]

I think we're agreeing but thinking that we're disagreeing?

Um anyway... on a broader noat, what happens in a fox discorporates and thus becomes an enlighted re-incarnating soul, reborn in the womb of a woman?

Can it only be reborn in the womb of another spirit fox, to forever be a spirit fox? Or can it be reborn as a pleasure bunny?

[Shadowdragon7]

If i make a Spirit Fox what will be some fun chi magic OCC's should I take at 3rd level?

[drewkitty ~..~]

According to the stick in the muds nether Infernal demons nor Spirit Foxes can be magic users.

They didn't like it when I came asking about making a SF Mystic Study, howling at the very idea saying it was 'just not possible'. *rolleyes*

Warning: Trolling

[eliakon]

If i make a Spirit Fox what will be some fun chi magic OCC's should I take at 3rd level?

Assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to take an OCC (I.E. they treat them as a race not an RCC)
And assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to get a PPE score (They officially have PPE: None)
Then I would look at a Chi Arcanist, they combination of magic and chi meshes well. I would especially advice getting the spells Convert Chi to PPE and Convert PPE to Chi.

[eliakon]

I think we're agreeing but thinking that we're disagreeing?

Um anyway... on a broader noat, what happens in a fox discorporates and thus becomes an enlighted re-incarnating soul, reborn in the womb of a woman?

Can it only be reborn in the womb of another spirit fox, to forever be a spirit fox? Or can it be reborn as a pleasure bunny?

I would say that it would be reborn as a spirit fox. Over and over again.
To be reborn as a Pleasure Bunny you would have to be a Pleasure Bunny.
Or more simply...you are reborn as a member of what ever race you ARE (the book was writing under an assumption that everyone would be humans....if going megaversal then you will need to have some minor tweaks to fit...like this one)

[drewkitty ~..~]

I think we're agreeing but thinking that we're disagreeing?

Um anyway... on a broader noat, what happens in a fox discorporates and thus becomes an enlighted re-incarnating soul, reborn in the womb of a woman?

Can it only be reborn in the womb of another spirit fox, to forever be a spirit fox? Or can it be reborn as a pleasure bunny?

I would say that it would be reborn as a spirit fox. Over and over again.
To be reborn as a Pleasure Bunny you would have to be a Pleasure Bunny.
Or more simply...you are reborn as a member of what ever race you ARE (the book was writing under an assumption that everyone would be humans....if going megaversal then you will need to have some minor tweaks to fit...like this one)

The problem with a spirit fox discorperating is that in their natural state they have no corperate body.

[eliakon]

I think we're agreeing but thinking that we're disagreeing?

Um anyway... on a broader noat, what happens in a fox discorporates and thus becomes an enlighted re-incarnating soul, reborn in the womb of a woman?

Can it only be reborn in the womb of another spirit fox, to forever be a spirit fox? Or can it be reborn as a pleasure bunny?

I would say that it would be reborn as a spirit fox. Over and over again.
To be reborn as a Pleasure Bunny you would have to be a Pleasure Bunny.
Or more simply...you are reborn as a member of what ever race you ARE (the book was writing under an assumption that everyone would be humans....if going megaversal then you will need to have some minor tweaks to fit...like this one)

The problem with a spirit fox discorperating is that in their natural state they have no corperate body.

They have a finite body though. They are not 'one with the universe' So sure, they can Discorporate (assuming they have gained access to the ability) and just like anything else they lose their individuality. Discorporate does not mean you lose a physical body, it means you lose your personal identity/location.

[thorr-kan]

If i make a Spirit Fox what will be some fun chi magic OCC's should I take at 3rd level?

Assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to take an OCC (I.E. they treat them as a race not an RCC)
And assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to get a PPE score (They officially have PPE: None)
Then I would look at a Chi Arcanist, they combination of magic and chi meshes well. I would especially advice getting the spells Convert Chi to PPE and Convert PPE to Chi.

Alternatively, see if the DM will let you use Sorcerous Proficiencies from Nightbane's Through the Glass Darkly. You get some magical powers.

[eliakon]

If i make a Spirit Fox what will be some fun chi magic OCC's should I take at 3rd level?

Assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to take an OCC (I.E. they treat them as a race not an RCC)
And assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to get a PPE score (They officially have PPE: None)
Then I would look at a Chi Arcanist, they combination of magic and chi meshes well. I would especially advice getting the spells Convert Chi to PPE and Convert PPE to Chi.

Alternatively, see if the DB will let you use Sorcerous Proficiencies from Nightbane's Through the Glass Darkly. You get some magical powers.

Unless you use the Rifter article the only magic powers you can get are either magic resistance, invulnerability to magic, or the ability to sense either magic or the supernatural.
But yah, a Proficiency or two can help get you a 'dab' of magical ability. But most of them require spell casting (and thus by extension PPE) to be useful.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Level 5 edit

[thorr-kan]

If i make a Spirit Fox what will be some fun chi magic OCC's should I take at 3rd level?

Assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to take an OCC (I.E. they treat them as a race not an RCC)
And assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to get a PPE score (They officially have PPE: None)
Then I would look at a Chi Arcanist, they combination of magic and chi meshes well. I would especially advice getting the spells Convert Chi to PPE and Convert PPE to Chi.

Alternatively, see if the DB will let you use Sorcerous Proficiencies from Nightbane's Through the Glass Darkly. You get some magical powers.

Unless you use the Rifter article the only magic powers you can get are either magic resistance, invulnerability to magic, or the ability to sense either magic or the supernatural.
But yah, a Proficiency or two can help get you a 'dab' of magical ability. But most of them require spell casting (and thus by extension PPE) to be useful.

Ability to cast 4 spells of levels 1-4...

[eliakon]

If i make a Spirit Fox what will be some fun chi magic OCC's should I take at 3rd level?

Assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to take an OCC (I.E. they treat them as a race not an RCC)
And assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to get a PPE score (They officially have PPE: None)
Then I would look at a Chi Arcanist, they combination of magic and chi meshes well. I would especially advice getting the spells Convert Chi to PPE and Convert PPE to Chi.

Alternatively, see if the DB will let you use Sorcerous Proficiencies from Nightbane's Through the Glass Darkly. You get some magical powers.

Unless you use the Rifter article the only magic powers you can get are either magic resistance, invulnerability to magic, or the ability to sense either magic or the supernatural.
But yah, a Proficiency or two can help get you a 'dab' of magical ability. But most of them require spell casting (and thus by extension PPE) to be useful.

Ability to cast 4 spells of levels 1-4...

Invocation specialists get four bonus spells. This would require you have spell casting to start with to get a 'bonus' added onto.

[thorr-kan]

Invocation specialists get four bonus spells. This would require you have spell casting to start with to get a 'bonus' added onto.

Doesn't say bonus, says addtional, appropriate to OCC. Since it lists nonspellcasting classes like the Acolyte or Parapsychologist, that implies nonspellcasting classes can be incantation specialists.

Now, since the whole section's optional, it's the DMs call to access it. *I'd* allow it. It's not like 4 spells are going to overpower anything. And it's not like a fox spirit has skill slots to burn.

For a fox spirit, chi magic would probably be the most "appropriate OCC."

[drewkitty ~..~]

Invocation specialists get four bonus spells. This would require you have spell casting to start with to get a 'bonus' added onto.

Doesn't say bonus, says additional, appropriate to OCC. Since it lists non-spellcasting classes like the
Acolyte or Parapsychologist, that implies non-spellcasting classes can be incantation specialists.

Now, since the whole section's optional, it's the DMs call to access it. *I'd* allow it. It's not like 4 spells are going to overpower anything. And it's not like a fox spirit has skill slots to burn.

For a fox spirit, chi magic would probably be the most "appropriate OCC."

Additional....as a word says there is something to add to.

Parapsychologists have a spell casting ablity...through reading prepared texts of the spell. Fiugues this is much like reading spell scrolls but the words don't dissapear when read. See the class text about Read Magic.
Acolytes....are magic junkies that have not ability. yawda yawda yawda too many reasons in the 'whys' of things to go over so doesn't.

How the ref. magic prof. interacts with these two....(speculation) because the two classes magic centric and as such they !!!!"Might"!!!! of picked up a small bit of ability to cast a few spells. (more yawda yawda yawda..about the 'whys'...these would be background story based so does not go over them).


Chi magic would be the most common type of magic a Spirit Fox would peruse, Yes. But they would not be limited to chi magic. Nor are they limited to the Wu Shih class for specilizing in chi magic. The mystic study power cat. is possible to.

"appropriate OCC." as per the referenced magic prof. means that the additional spells selected are from the char's original magic class when they got the magic prof.

[Nightmask]

Invocation specialists get four bonus spells. This would require you have spell casting to start with to get a 'bonus' added onto.

Doesn't say bonus, says addtional, appropriate to OCC. Since it lists nonspellcasting classes like the Acolyte or Parapsychologist, that implies nonspellcasting classes can be incantation specialists.

Now, since the whole section's optional, it's the DMs call to access it. *I'd* allow it. It's not like 4 spells are going to overpower anything. And it's not like a fox spirit has skill slots to burn.

For a fox spirit, chi magic would probably be the most "appropriate OCC."

Other than the problem that chi magic contrary to the name doesn't run on chi it runs on PPE like all other magics do, and fox spirits don't have PPE nor do they even have the special ability of demons to acquire or store it. To make one a mage means changing the race and if you change the race it's not really a fox spirit anymore.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip....

Then they can form their own opinion.
Link to the afore mentioned topic with posters saying it can't be done---> viewtopic.php?f=7&t=139574

[eliakon]

snip....

Then they can form their own opinion.
Link to the afore mentioned topic with posters saying it can't be done---> viewtopic.php?f=7&t=139574

I don't see how this has anything to do with the current thread.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip....

Then they can form their own opinion.
Link to the afore mentioned topic with posters saying it can't be done---> viewtopic.php?f=7&t=139574

I don't see how this has anything to do with the current thread.

The whole topic is about whether or not SF's can be mages, Even if there was absolutely no coming together in agreement of everybody about if they can or can't.

[eliakon]

snip....

Then they can form their own opinion.
Link to the afore mentioned topic with posters saying it can't be done---> viewtopic.php?f=7&t=139574

I don't see how this has anything to do with the current thread.

The whole topic is about whether or not SF's can be mages, Even if there was absolutely no coming together in agreement of everybody about if they can or can't.

So? The current thread is about the Original Posters question of if Spirit Fox's can undergo a process similar to those of a Reformed Infernal and become a human. That has nothing what so ever to do with if they can, or can not be mages.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If i make a Spirit Fox what will be some fun chi magic OCC's should I take at 3rd level?

IT changed with this post....this was after the OP was fully answered.

Assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to take an OCC (I.E. they treat them as a race not an RCC)
And assuming your GM allows a Spirit Fox to get a PPE score (They officially have PPE: None)
Then I would look at a Chi Arcanist, they combination of magic and chi meshes well. I would especially advice getting the spells Convert Chi to PPE and Convert PPE to Chi.

And you went along with the change of topic.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Nothing indicates that infernals becoming human has anything to do with their being beings of pure chi, rather that they are infernal and demonic. There is nothing that indicates a precidence for beings of pure chi becoming human, because nothing indicates that the state of being a being of pure chi is relevent to the process.

I think it only indicates that it's possible for pure chi beings to do so, not that ALL of them can do so. While it doesn't explicitly say so, I think that the Infernals (the top-ranking guys who can change shape, become Overlords, etc) are the only Chinese demons who can actually become human, it's very much what the stats and associated imagery indicate. Doubtful that centipedes, monkeys or even leopards (though if I had to nominate anyone else to be a candidate it'd be them) can do Reformation.

Technically, it only says that infernals can do so, the fact they are beings of pure chi may be irrelevent to the process. we simply have no way to tell with the limited information given.

[Tor]

According to the....
nether Infernal demons nor Spirit Foxes can be magic users.

So wrong yet so right.

I would say that it would be reborn as a spirit fox. Over and over again.
To be reborn as a Pleasure Bunny you would have to be a Pleasure Bunny.
Or more simply...you are reborn as a member of what ever race you ARE

If this is the case why not specify child/mother of same species or 'human' or something?

If we look at Buddhist or Taoist myth is it bereft of human immortals being reborn as animals?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_realm divides into 6 domains with it going hell>preta>animal>human>asura>god as one ascends. The idea being if your karma is bad then you can sink I think?

the book was writing under an assumption that everyone would be humans....if going megaversal then you will need to have some minor tweaks to fit...like this one)

Mystic China introduced the ability to play as a demon or fox so why would it assume everyone was human when introducing this Zenjorike?

Since it lists nonspellcasting classes like the Acolyte or Parapsychologist, that implies nonspellcasting classes can be incantation specialists.

Proficiences being available to non-casters doesn't mean they gain the ability to cast spells. Some proficiencies are wasted on them.

[eliakon]

I would say that it would be reborn as a spirit fox. Over and over again.
To be reborn as a Pleasure Bunny you would have to be a Pleasure Bunny.
Or more simply...you are reborn as a member of what ever race you ARE

If this is the case why not specify child/mother of same species or 'human' or something?

If we look at Buddhist or Taoist myth is it bereft of human immortals being reborn as animals?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_realm divides into 6 domains with it going hell>preta>animal>human>asura>god as one ascends. The idea being if your karma is bad then you can sink I think?

I do not consider real world texts to be a valid source of game canon. This is a fantasy game, and to be honest the game representations have little relationship to real world theology.

the book was writing under an assumption that everyone would be humans....if going megaversal then you will need to have some minor tweaks to fit...like this one)

Mystic China introduced the ability to play as a demon or fox so why would it assume everyone was human when introducing this Zenjorike?

Because the Zenjorkie does not turn you into the enlightened immortal in the book section. It is the first step on the road to the Taoist road to immortality. There is a HUGE difference.
That section is, pretty obviously, written about former humans. An enlightened Fox would be reborn as a fox, because it would look like a fox and would be...a fox.

[Tor]

I do not consider real world texts to be a valid source of game canon. This is a fantasy game, and to be honest the game representations have little relationship to real world theology.

The glossary of research texts Wujcik included at the back don't agree with this.

But hey, if we're going with RAW, it doesn't say anything about there being a race-lock, so I guess the question is: why should it be?

the Zenjorkie does not turn you into the enlightened immortal in the book section. It is the first step on the road to the Taoist road to immortality. There is a HUGE difference.

Actually it does, using Discorporate enlightens you to universe's true state causing rebirth upon death.

The road to Toaist Immorality is a reference to the physical immortality attained by internal alchemy, a step that enlightened immortals pursue later to compliment (and unify with) the spiritual immortality.

Discorporate alone does nothing to halt the aging process or prevent death from old age, you need all the other Zenjorike and attainment of 1st refinement to get that.

That section is, pretty obviously, written about former humans. An enlightened Fox would be reborn as a fox, because it would look like a fox and would be...a fox.

You're applying circular logic here. There is no fixed appearance of an Enlightened Immortal in their new life because they are born in a new appearance.

What obviously makes this section about humans?

[eliakon]

I do not consider real world texts to be a valid source of game canon. This is a fantasy game, and to be honest the game representations have little relationship to real world theology.

The glossary of research texts Wujcik included at the back don't agree with this.

But hey, if we're going with RAW, it doesn't say anything about there being a race-lock, so I guess the question is: why should it be?

research text =/= game canon

the Zenjorkie does not turn you into the enlightened immortal in the book section. It is the first step on the road to the Taoist road to immortality. There is a HUGE difference.

Actually it does, using Discorporate enlightens you to universe's true state causing rebirth upon death.

Source? because what I read just says you 'become one with the universe'
I missed the part about rebirth, can you quote it for me?
(Hint "becomes one of the immortals" =/= "becomes an enlightened immortal" This could be a false path, or a sub path.

The road to Toaist Immorality is a reference to the physical immortality attained by internal alchemy, a step that enlightened immortals pursue later to compliment (and unify with) the spiritual immortality.

Again, source?
While that is one possible interpretation, there is, AFAIK nothing in the book to support the claim.

Discorporate alone does nothing to halt the aging process or prevent death from old age, you need all the other Zenjorike and attainment of 1st refinement to get that.

Enlightened Immortality is sort of by definition the only way to have Enlightened Immortality yes....

That section is, pretty obviously, written about former humans. An enlightened Fox would be reborn as a fox, because it would look like a fox and would be...a fox.

You're applying circular logic here. There is no fixed appearance of an Enlightened Immortal in their new life because they are born in a new appearance.

Its not circular any more than claiming that a reborn human would look like a human would be circular.

What obviously makes this section about humans?

Because the entire section on the Immortals has human stats, and that this is presented as 'the preceding paths are false'
However, I would say that the question is more of 'where does it say that they are reborn as humans' It implies that they are reborn as humans, insofar as the person is born into a family. I would posit that with out an active statement that 'oh and you can be born into a different species than your original one' that you keep your race. Humans get reincarnated as humans, foxes get reincarnated as foxes, pleasure bunnies get reincarnated as pleasure bunnies, floopers get reincarnated as floopers, etc.


The above comments not withstanding, if a person wants to have a house rule that you can change species when you reincarnate I would say "more power to them." But I would say that there isn't any in game support for the idea that its possible, which means that from a canon stand point I would think its not how things work.

[Tor]

I'm bringing up source material as a better indication of the author's intent when presented with vaguaries since you appear to be assuming a "you are reborn as a member of what ever race you ARE" stance.

Becoming one with the universe is seeing its true state is becoming enlightened is becoming undying and rebirthing, it's all the same language, the source is the Discorporate ability and the EI's intro.

Why do you believe a reborn human would become a human? Must a reborn man become a man? Must a reborn caucasian become a caucasian? Must a reborn ginger becme a ginger? Why would all the aspects of humanity be variable but the species fixed? You shed your old DNA.

What do you mean by the entire Immortal section having human stats? Pretty sure these paths are worded in a way that could apply to many other races. Obviously some have problems, like a species without a mouth would have trouble eating Ginseng to pursue that path.

[eliakon]

I'm bringing up source material as a better indication of the author's intent when presented with vaguaries since you appear to be assuming a "you are reborn as a member of what ever race you ARE" stance.

Yes that is my stance...

Becoming one with the universe is seeing its true state is becoming enlightened is becoming undying and rebirthing, it's all the same language, the source is the Discorporate ability and the EI's intro.

Except that its not explicitly the same thing. They may be the same thing, or they may be related, the one may lead to the other...but they are not explicitly the same thing. Ergo any argument predicated on them being the same thing is sort of flawed....

Why do you believe a reborn human would become a human? Must a reborn man become a man? Must a reborn caucasian become a caucasian? Must a reborn ginger becme a ginger? Why would all the aspects of humanity be variable but the species fixed? You shed your old DNA.

I am not saying that a person has to be identical, but they stay the same race.
There is no reason given in the description to suppose that you change race
And the comparison between race and hair color is not the same. You can change hair color and not change race.

What do you mean by the entire Immortal section having human stats? Pretty sure these paths are worded in a way that could apply to many other races. Obviously some have problems, like a species without a mouth would have trouble eating Ginseng to pursue that path.

The statistics given all seem predicated off of a normal human baseline. As written the book seems to presume that only humans will be doing any of this (which makes sense since in the game the book is for, the only official playable race is humans, with two other optional races provided....neither of which can take a class)

[Tor]

I'm just asking why this is your stance: why do you think you can only be reborn as the species you were previously? You leave your DNA behind, you're reborn as a different body. Why would you inherit the species?

the pathway of enlightenment, of illuminating the mind so that it sees the true state of the universe, is to create a spirit that can never truly die

it is possible for 'evil' characters to acquire the Art of Discorporation. After all, anyone, even an Infernal, can become enlightened and "at one" with the Tao

Seems like being at one with the Tao, discorporating, and becoming Enlightened are all talking about the same thing here.

There is no reason given in the description to suppose that you change race

There isn't one supposing that you change gender either, or that you change ethnicity. Do you think that unless something is explicitly said to be different we must assume it's identical? Is someone always reincarnated as a complete clone with the same DNA, appearance, attributes?

The statistics given all seem predicated off of a normal human baseline

What stats are you talking about? I don't even notice 3D6 being mentioned here. From pages 127-132 what lines do you think indicate human baseline?

the book seems to presume that only humans will be doing any of this

No it doesn't, considering it mentions that Infernals can become enlightened, and none of these OCCs are human-locked.

the only official playable race is humans, with two other optional races provided....neither of which can take a class

The optional races are official ones and they may take classes using the Megaversal OCC change rules provided by Palladium on its official FAQ. They're just not published in the N&SS paperbooks.

[eliakon]

I'm just asking why this is your stance: why do you think you can only be reborn as the species you were previously? You leave your DNA behind, you're reborn as a different body. Why would you inherit the species?

My stance is that race is not just physical. Its mental, and spiritual.
Just as peoples astral forms, and souls are affected by their body, there seems to be no reason for me to assume that they should STOP being affected.

the only official playable race is humans, with two other optional races provided....neither of which can take a class

The optional races are official ones and they may take classes using the Megaversal OCC change rules provided by Palladium on its official FAQ. They're just not published in the N&SS paperbooks.[/quote]
Tiny problem with this
1) They are optional as PLAYERS, which means that they are only official as NPCs, not PCs.
And second it makes a presumption....
....that there are "Megaversal OCC change rules provided by Palladium on its official FAQ"
Which has the tiny problem of not actually existing.

[drewkitty ~..~]

To quote a master...“Luminous beings are we…not this crude matter.” TESB

[Tor]

My stance is that race is not just physical. Its mental, and spiritual.

One could take a similar philosophical stance on gender, thus we have self-professed otherkin or transgender individuals, but the question is more: do books support any of these spirit-tie ideas existing in the Megaverse?

Just as peoples astral forms, and souls are affected by their body, there seems to be no reason for me to assume that they should STOP being affected.

Your astral SDC is affected by HP, is affected by PE. Do you think the PE attribute of your past life is fixed to be duplicated in the new life, or do you think they are rerolled to suit the new body?

Where is the line drawn on what is retained and what is changed?

All we are told for certain is that memories eventually come back.

Tiny problem with this
1) They are optional as PLAYERS, which means that they are only official as NPCs, not PCs.

This misconception is due to a flawed idea that "optional" means non-official, it does not.

Rifter 9 makes that clear on it's ToC on page 4 when describing the 'New Type Bio Borgs' on page 47 describing them as:

All "official", but optional characters.

The usual disclaimer in Rifters says

"Optional and Unofficial".

If 'Optional' meant Unofficial you would not have to say "and" because it would be like saying "square and rectangular". So it means something else entirely, a discrete expression.

Optional is simply a reminder that to GMs that they have the freedom to control their campaigns in case players ever forget.

We have things labelled "official" and things labelled "unofficial". I'm interested if anyone can located something called "non-optional" or "mandatory" or similar.

Unless something is ruled out as unofficial, anything optional is still official until otherwise indicated.

And second it makes a presumption....
....that there are "Megaversal OCC change rules provided by Palladium on its official FAQ"
Which has the tiny problem of not actually existing.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... ent&id=226 (archive)

Characters that wish to learn a new O.C.C. must first advance at least one level in their current O.C.C./R.C.C. At second level (or wherever desired), they may opt for training in the new O.C.C. as SOON as they reach that new level (it cannot be done after they have advanced in their new experience level).

When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic). When that amount of experience points is acquired, the character has passed their apprenticeship and is now at first level in his new O.C.C.

Once characters change over to their new O.C.C., they retain their old skills (but frozen at the levels they achieved before the change) but all new PPE, S.D.C., and other increases will be based upon their new O.C.C. ALL new experience points are awarded to the new O.C.C.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/ques ... ombat.html (since 2004)

26. How many times can you change an OCC? When you change how many skills do you get and from what OCC skills, related or secondary.?
Answer: Treat multiple O.C.C.s in Rifts as you would in Palladium. Characters that wish to learn a new O.C.C. must first advance at least one level in their current P.C.C./R.C.C. At second level (or wherever desired), they may opt for training in the new O.C.C. as soon as they reach that new level (it cannot be done after they have advanced in their new experience level). When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic). When that amount of experience points is acquired, the character has passed their apprenticeship and is now at first level in his new O.C.C. Once characters change over to their new O.C.C., they retain their old skills (but frozen at the levels they achieved before the change) but all new P.P.E., S.D.C., and other increases will be based upon their new O.C.C. all new experience points are awarded to the new O.C.C. Characters who change to a new O.C.C. will get all of the O.C.C. skills and special abilities, but only HALF the number of O.C.C. related and secondary skills. When powers/skills are duplicated, they get whichever is the better of the two, they do NOT add them together. For special powers and abilities that specific O.C.C.s may possess, adjust where necessary. At the GM's discretion, characters may continue to change O.C.C.s repeatedly as long as they pay the experience points for their apprenticeships.

Mystic China page 1 (bottom) "compatible with Rifts and the entire Palladium Books Megaverse"

The book is designed to be used with non-N&SS sourcebooks because otherwise how would you figure the psionics that Infernals get would be implemented?

[eliakon]

My stance is that race is not just physical. Its mental, and spiritual.

One could take a similar philosophical stance on gender, thus we have self-professed otherkin or transgender individuals, but the question is more: do books support any of these spirit-tie ideas existing in the Megaverse?

Just as peoples astral forms, and souls are affected by their body, there seems to be no reason for me to assume that they should STOP being affected.

Your astral SDC is affected by HP, is affected by PE. Do you think the PE attribute of your past life is fixed to be duplicated in the new life, or do you think they are rerolled to suit the new body?

Where is the line drawn on what is retained and what is changed?

All we are told for certain is that memories eventually come back.

You ask my opinion. I gave it.
my opinion is that race is not a changed factor, and that as there is nothing in the books to suggest that it is changed upon rebirth that it does not change.

Tiny problem with this
1) They are optional as PLAYERS, which means that they are only official as NPCs, not PCs.

This misconception is due to a flawed idea that "optional" means non-official, it does not.

I did not say non-official. I said that the are optional. Read what I said. They are not an OFFICIAL OPTION FOR PCs. That is what I said. Not that they are not official

Rifter 9 makes that clear on it's ToC on page 4 when describing the 'New Type Bio Borgs' on page 47 describing them as:

All "official", but optional characters.

The usual disclaimer in Rifters says

"Optional and Unofficial".

If 'Optional' meant Unofficial you would not have to say "and" because it would be like saying "square and rectangular". So it means something else entirely, a discrete expression.

Optional is simply a reminder that to GMs that they have the freedom to control their campaigns in case players ever forget.

We have things labelled "official" and things labelled "unofficial". I'm interested if anyone can located something called "non-optional" or "mandatory" or similar.

Unless something is ruled out as unofficial, anything optional is still official until otherwise indicated.

Partially correct. And totally irrelevant.
They require a house rule to be allowed as a PC. That is all I said.

And second it makes a presumption....
....that there are "Megaversal OCC change rules provided by Palladium on its official FAQ"
Which has the tiny problem of not actually existing.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... ent&id=226 (archive)

Characters that wish to learn a new O.C.C. must first advance at least one level in their current O.C.C./R.C.C. At second level (or wherever desired), they may opt for training in the new O.C.C. as SOON as they reach that new level (it cannot be done after they have advanced in their new experience level).

When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic). When that amount of experience points is acquired, the character has passed their apprenticeship and is now at first level in his new O.C.C.

Once characters change over to their new O.C.C., they retain their old skills (but frozen at the levels they achieved before the change) but all new PPE, S.D.C., and other increases will be based upon their new O.C.C. ALL new experience points are awarded to the new O.C.C.

That rule is for Palladium Fantasy, and is found in the Palladium Fantasy section....that does not make it megaversal

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/noncombat.html (since 2004)

26. How many times can you change an OCC? When you change how many skills do you get and from what OCC skills, related or secondary.?
Answer: Treat multiple O.C.C.s in Rifts as you would in Palladium. Characters that wish to learn a new O.C.C. must first advance at least one level in their current P.C.C./R.C.C. At second level (or wherever desired), they may opt for training in the new O.C.C. as soon as they reach that new level (it cannot be done after they have advanced in their new experience level). When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic). When that amount of experience points is acquired, the character has passed their apprenticeship and is now at first level in his new O.C.C. Once characters change over to their new O.C.C., they retain their old skills (but frozen at the levels they achieved before the change) but all new P.P.E., S.D.C., and other increases will be based upon their new O.C.C. all new experience points are awarded to the new O.C.C. Characters who change to a new O.C.C. will get all of the O.C.C. skills and special abilities, but only HALF the number of O.C.C. related and secondary skills. When powers/skills are duplicated, they get whichever is the better of the two, they do NOT add them together. For special powers and abilities that specific O.C.C.s may possess, adjust where necessary. At the GM's discretion, characters may continue to change O.C.C.s repeatedly as long as they pay the experience points for their apprenticeships.

And that is a Rifts rule....

Mystic China page 1 (bottom) "compatible with Rifts and the entire Palladium Books Megaverse"

The book is designed to be used with non-N&SS sourcebooks because otherwise how would you figure the psionics that Infernals get would be implemented?

Compatible does not mean part of.
And the assumption that the Psionics have to come from Rifts or Palladium Fantasy is false. It could be from an unpublished N&SS book, it could be intended to use the ATB, HU2, BTS1, BTS2, System Failure rule set....

Thus rules from Palladium Fantasy and Rifts do not apply to N&SS unless there is an explicit statement that they do.
There is not such a statement for the OCC change rules.
Thus, it requires a house rule to change OCC in N&SS.
Therefore there is no relevance to a discussion about canon N&SS from the OCC change rules.

[Tor]

as there is nothing in the books to suggest that it is changed upon rebirth that it does not change.

Is anything at all suggested as changed? I don't see any explicit changes suggested at all.

Do you think someone is reborn as a clone of who they once were, because no specific changes are described?

So if I was of Chinese ethnicity in my past life and I am reborn as the child of parents of an entirely different ethnicity, I am still born with oriental characteristics rather than my parents?

They are optional as PLAYERS, which means that they are only official as NPCs

They are not an OFFICIAL OPTION FOR PCs.

Something which is optional for a PC to play means they are official PC options.

They require a house rule to be allowed as a PC. That is all I said.

What house rule is required? The language clearly indicates you gain spiritual immortality when you see the universe's true state, as discorporate does.

That rule is for Palladium Fantasy, and is found in the Palladium Fantasy section....that does not make it megaversal

Interchangeable rules system FTW. Mystic China by it's nature builds on more than just N&SS, see the psionics assigned to demons.

Compatible does not mean part of.

N&SS+MC are part of the Megaverse which uses these rules.

rules from Palladium Fantasy and Rifts do not apply to N&SS unless there is an explicit statement that they do.

Direct citation isn't needed, falls under the 'compatible with the entire Megaverse' statement.

[eliakon]

as there is nothing in the books to suggest that it is changed upon rebirth that it does not change.

Is anything at all suggested as changed? I don't see any explicit changes suggested at all.

Do you think someone is reborn as a clone of who they once were, because no specific changes are described?

So if I was of Chinese ethnicity in my past life and I am reborn as the child of parents of an entirely different ethnicity, I am still born with oriental characteristics rather than my parents?

There is a difference, I feel, between changing ethnicity and changing species.

They are optional as PLAYERS, which means that they are only official as NPCs

They are not an OFFICIAL OPTION FOR PCs.

Something which is optional for a PC to play means they are official PC options.

No it does not
An official option would be something that is in the rules as official (say you have the option to take any listed martial art)
This is an optional rule. Its optional. That means that to be included it requires an active act on the part of the GM to include it, because it does not come with the 'vanilla' setting.

They require a house rule to be allowed as a PC. That is all I said.

What house rule is required? The language clearly indicates you gain spiritual immortality when you see the universe's true state, as discorporate does.

Spirit Foxes require a house rule to be allowed as a PC. Because they are optional.

That rule is for Palladium Fantasy, and is found in the Palladium Fantasy section....that does not make it megaversal

Interchangeable rules system FTW. Mystic China by it's nature builds on more than just N&SS, see the psionics assigned to demons.

Again false. This rule applies to the separate game Palladium Fantasy. The different games are compatable, not interchangeable. If they were interchangeable they would use that word. They don't. They use compatable. This is important because the different games have their own rules for many things.
One of the results of this is that the rules from one game may not apply (such as this case where the changing OCC rules do not explicitly apply anywhere but in PF)

Compatible does not mean part of.

N&SS+MC are part of the Megaverse which uses these rules.
[/quote]
There is no Megaversal rules set.

rules from Palladium Fantasy and Rifts do not apply to N&SS unless there is an explicit statement that they do.

Direct citation isn't needed, falls under the 'compatible with the entire Megaverse' statement.

This is all sorts of false.
Compatible does not mean 'interchangeable' This is especially obvious when there are rules conflicts between the three lines.

[Tor]

There is a difference, I feel, between changing ethnicity and changing species.

Yes, but what they have in common is that the book does not implicate either happening nor outrule either happening. Although we are not told that either of these (or gender) change, we also are not told they must stay the same.

I don't see why race would be more immutable than ethnicity or gender.

An official option would be something that is in the rules as official (say you have the option to take any listed martial art) This is an optional rule. Its optional. That means that to be included it requires an active act on the part of the GM to include it, because it does not come with the 'vanilla' setting.

The disclaimer in MC for the RCCs is as follows:

"It's up to the Game Master to decide whether or not to allow either of the following two RCCs"

For this to have any kind of meaning, we would have to say, for the other classes in MC (OCCs or PCCs) that it is NOT up to the Game Master to decide whether or not to include them.

If the game master already has the power to choose which characters allowed into the game, then there is nothing unique at all about the (OPTIONAL) parenthesis, it is merely a reminder of the GM's power alongside a class where that power is more likely to be exercised.

An Open-Hand Martial Artist is just as optional, the GM also has the power to exclude a character of that OCC. Optional is a reminder, not some unique classification. The GM already has to actively approve all characters.

Spirit Foxes require a house rule to be allowed as a PC. Because they are optional.

No they do not, requiring GM approval is not a house rule, it is a reminder of an already present policy in a case of an odd class where GMs are more likely to put their foot down.

The different games are compatable, not interchangeable. If they were interchangeable they would use that word. They don't.

Do you happen to have any examples of where Palladium has used the word interchangeable for us to compare? I happened to find one in N&SS page 164 saying (of HU and TMNT) that they are compatible and interchangeable.

Admittedly it does not say this on 163 for the Palladium RPG.

However page 163 does introduce the "Ancient Martial Artist" OCC, and if you played one of these in Palladium RPG, you should be able to use the multiple OCCs rule. Although a Palladium RPG OCC, since this OCC was introduced in N&SS I think it is okay to discuss it here.

Page 165 says it is okay to take N&SS chars to Rifts (Mercs being an example) so it is fine to discuss how the rule may be applied at that point.

I suppose it's possible there is some law of physics in the N&SS dimension that prevents OCC changes. Maybe it's linked to how it and TMNT have crazy-fast SDC regeneration.

There is no Megaversal rules set.

It's imperfect but the desire to see it that way from Palladium is clear. Rifts Conversion Book page 7:

changes reflect an effort on our part to make all of Palladium's RPG titles fit nicely into one seamless RPG rules system and a Megaverse of inter-connected and interchangeable worlds and adventures.

Compatible does not mean 'interchangeable' This is especially obvious when there are rules conflicts between the three lines.

I would say that compatible means 'interchangeable until conflict is met' or something to that effect. What else could compatible mean?

[eliakon]

There is a difference, I feel, between changing ethnicity and changing species.

Yes, but what they have in common is that the book does not implicate either happening nor outrule either happening. Although we are not told that either of these (or gender) change, we also are not told they must stay the same.

I don't see why race would be more immutable than ethnicity or gender.

Which brings us full circle to "well its not in the books so we have to make a house rule on it"
Either way we go its a house rule.....

An official option would be something that is in the rules as official (say you have the option to take any listed martial art) This is an optional rule. Its optional. That means that to be included it requires an active act on the part of the GM to include it, because it does not come with the 'vanilla' setting.

The disclaimer in MC for the RCCs is as follows:

"It's up to the Game Master to decide whether or not to allow either of the following two RCCs"

For this to have any kind of meaning, we would have to say, for the other classes in MC (OCCs or PCCs) that it is NOT up to the Game Master to decide whether or not to include them.

If the game master already has the power to choose which characters allowed into the game, then there is nothing unique at all about the (OPTIONAL) parenthesis, it is merely a reminder of the GM's power alongside a class where that power is more likely to be exercised.

An Open-Hand Martial Artist is just as optional, the GM also has the power to exclude a character of that OCC. Optional is a reminder, not some unique classification. The GM already has to actively approve all characters.

This is still splitting hairs.
The Open-Handed Martial Artist is not 'optional' in the same way.
One is listed as optional (I.e. is not considered to be part of the core rules, and takes a decision to include) and one is considered part of the core rules (and would take a decision to exclude)
Optional inclusivity is not the same as optional exclusivity.

Spirit Foxes require a house rule to be allowed as a PC. Because they are optional.

No they do not, requiring GM approval is not a house rule, it is a reminder of an already present policy in a case of an odd class where GMs are more likely to put their foot down.

It says, explicitly that it is optional. Ergo it is optional.
Period

The different games are compatable, not interchangeable. If they were interchangeable they would use that word. They don't.

Do you happen to have any examples of where Palladium has used the word interchangeable for us to compare? I happened to find one in N&SS page 164 saying (of HU and TMNT) that they are compatible and interchangeable.

Admittedly it does not say this on 163 for the Palladium RPG.

However page 163 does introduce the "Ancient Martial Artist" OCC, and if you played one of these in Palladium RPG, you should be able to use the multiple OCCs rule. Although a Palladium RPG OCC, since this OCC was introduced in N&SS I think it is okay to discuss it here.

Page 165 says it is okay to take N&SS chars to Rifts (Mercs being an example) so it is fine to discuss how the rule may be applied at that point.

I suppose it's possible there is some law of physics in the N&SS dimension that prevents OCC changes. Maybe it's linked to how it and TMNT have crazy-fast SDC regeneration.

Again simply because the rules from another game could be imported, does not mean those rules apply to this game.

There is no Megaversal rules set.

It's imperfect but the desire to see it that way from Palladium is clear. Rifts Conversion Book page 7:

changes reflect an effort on our part to make all of Palladium's RPG titles fit nicely into one seamless RPG rules system and a Megaverse of inter-connected and interchangeable worlds and adventures.

However the titles still do NOT use a seamless RPG rules system.
As the contra-example ATB uses its own system for dividing up skills and assigning them categories

Compatible does not mean 'interchangeable' This is especially obvious when there are rules conflicts between the three lines.

I would say that compatible means 'interchangeable until conflict is met' or something to that effect. What else could compatible mean?

Compatible means that they can be used with each other. Not that they are made for each other.
There is a difference.
In the first case things from one game can easily be imported from one game to the other if the GM so chooses to do so.
In the second case the things from one game are officially part of the other game, and the rules of any game is the rules of all the games.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The rules for the different settings are limited to their individual settings. However, because most of the PB settings use the same core system, which is tweaked for the individual setting, most of the time a GM can easily import a rule form another setting without much concern. (Like bringing in a skill or WP from another setting)
However, there are those rules that do need very much to include all the section of rules when importing them into another setting. (like the PF changing class rules and how they apply to rifts)

Tor, while you can in You Own Games still use the "they are all in the same system" thought processes would you please understand that they are not Megavercial. Cause some player with Just PFRPG books will not be able to use any rifts rules cause they do not have the rifts books. The inverse is true also, players who only have Rifts books will not be able to use HU or Splicers or N&S rules cause they do not have those books.

This was bluntly pointed out to me, and all who were paying attention, by the newbs coming into the PB RPG after the publication of RUE who were only getting rifts books. And thus were complaining about it when those of us who were ate the time wholistic in our outlook kept suggesting rules and WPs & etc... from the other settings.

To repeat the idea....
What you do for your games (house rules) does not make it canon for everybody.

Yes, while you can bring it up the way you see things. It is proper to bring it up As Your Opinion!, not as if it was canon.

[Tor]

Which brings us full circle to "well its not in the books so we have to make a house rule on it" Either way we go its a house rule.....

A house rule is not needed to be reborn in a non-human womb, a house rule is needed to restrict you from it.

The Open-Handed Martial Artist is not 'optional' in the same way.

Any source to support this? On 'optional' reminders having any kind of unique meaning at all? Everything is the GM's option to approve.

One is listed as optional (I.e. is not considered to be part of the core rules, and takes a decision to include) and one is considered part of the core rules (and would take a decision to exclude)

We're not talking about rules, we're talking about characters. Having to calculate your attributes and HP is a core rule, while having to roll for a 'Crazy Hero' or 'Hero Legacy' (to use some HU examples) is not mandatory.

For 'optional' to have a unique meaning via 'the GM must approve' then any class not marked optional is mandatory for a GM to allow a player to create.

Optional inclusivity is not the same as optional exclusivity.

What is optionally-exclusive in this case?

It says, explicitly that it is optional. Ergo it is optional. Period

You're missing the point: I'm saying they're ALL optional, even those not marked optional.

A reminder being present in one thing (be it class or weapon) does not mean the reminder is mandatory or that it has any unique meaning in respect to that one thing.

For example, per the glossary on page 131 of N&SS:

any strike with a natural 20 is a critical strike (double damage)

This is noted on various combat skills at level 1: Chi Hsuan Men / Fong Ngan / Hwarang-Do / Isshin Ryu / Kyokushinkai / Ninjutsu / Pao Pat Mei / Sumo

These notes are simply reminders and hold no unique menaing, since natural 20 crits are already the case, without those reminders.

The same applies to any class being optional for the GM to include and all PCs needing approval from the GM to play.

they are not Megavercial. Cause some player with Just PFRPG books will not be able to use any rifts rules cause they do not have the rifts books. The inverse is true also, players who only have Rifts books will not be able to use HU or Splicers or N&S rules cause they do not have those books.

What books players have does not matter.

If I have the Rifts Main Book and I lack the Rifts GM's guide then I can not use the GM's guide rules.

If I have the N&SS book but do not have Mystic China, I can't use the rules from Mystic China.

Being unable to use data from books you lack is always the case and there is nothing specially systemic about this.

What you do for your games (house rules) does not make it canon for everybody.

I'm not talking about house rules, I'm talking about PBmegaverse canon and how I see it, just as you're talking about how you see it. It's safe to assume that unless you're saying "this is someone else's opinion I'm reporting to you" that what someone says is presented as their opinion. That opinion may represent how things are (canon) or be a misinterpretation, but they are opinions regardless.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
....I'm talking about PBmegaverse canon and how I see it...
...snip

Thank you for saying you were talking about Your Opinion about the what the rules say.

There are no canon rules (as far as I know) that says that ALL the rules are interchangeable throughout the PB settings as a matter of course.
IF I am incorrect about this then please, point them out for everybody (book/page/column/paragraph). Instead of just pontificating about it w/o providing supporting text. Yes, the text needs to say this explicitly without needing to infer anything from the text being presented.
IF I am Correct, please just acknowledge that I am correct in what I said and move on.
----------
Side-note:
The only "rule" that says any rules can be imported from another setting or or plain made up is the one that says that the GM is the ultimate authority 'in there games' and can do as they please 'in their games'. Since that rule is about what GMs do in 'their games' it is talking about those GM's 'house rules' it does not apply when talking about the RAW.

[Tor]

Drew, you are also talking about your opinion about what the rules say, why do you bother to point out the obvious?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Where does it say that ALL the Rules transfer through out the different settings "As Canon"?

That is the text you need to support your Opinion.

Since I have already Stated the fact that there are none. This is not my opinion, it is a fact. It is for you to prove it me wrong about what canon says by giving a quote from a published gamebook that proves me wrong. Otherwise you are just pontificating to distract from the point that there are none to find.

When this was discussed time before last, it was boring.

The ball is in your court...prove me wrong with posting where, & quote, in the published gamebooks the text says you are right.