What's 'wrong' with the Palladium system?

[jaymz]

so did I

An outline of layout will only tell us so much. I like it on the surface. I won't know if I like it in practice until it's done.

[Zenvis]

There has been a delay on the podcast so that I can read more and more on what we can do (and discuss) those issues that sting the sales and production of Palladium's product.

[Zenvis]

Getting back to the original topic when is this pod cast happening?

We should have something recorded by Friday and out later the next week. Keep an eye on the podcast or follow them on twitter at @CSDeadboys.

[Zenvis]

So without leaning to house-ruling it, how does someone like Palladium keep a system that could be used at a international level? Do we now story focus or adjust the rules so that it works for most each of us?

They would have to accomplish what they set out to do as an idea.

Codify the Core Rules

Genre Specific Rules that don't contradict the core rules, but add flavor to them

Conversion Rules that don't contradict the core rules

At that point release the Universal Edition or Mega-universal Edition.

I would mention more but a LOT of what I would say has been covered by many other fine folks on this thread.

AZ_RUNE

AZ_Rune has a great idea genere specific with unmovable core.

[Marcus]

So without leaning to house-ruling it, how does someone like Palladium keep a system that could be used at a international level? Do we now story focus or adjust the rules so that it works for most each of us?

They would have to accomplish what they set out to do as an idea.

Codify the Core Rules

Genre Specific Rules that don't contradict the core rules, but add flavor to them

Conversion Rules that don't contradict the core rules

At that point release the Universal Edition or Mega-universal Edition.

I would mention more but a LOT of what I would say has been covered by many other fine folks on this thread.

AZ_RUNE

AZ_Rune has a great idea genere specific with unmovable core.

Always a good idea, no matter how often it get's brought up.

[Kryptt]

There has been a delay on the podcast so that I can read more and more on what we can do (and discuss) those issues that sting the sales and production of Palladium's product.

Well what stings sales are a lack of new product release. Before everyone jumps on me I'm talking about how so many books are said to come out when less than a third actually make it out. From my understanding the CEO rewrites and edits everything that does come out maybe minus the rifter. That's a lot of time away from just finishing one book. As I said before for me it's the presentation. I'm all for color interiors and rules in one place instead of all over the book.

[Tiree]

I've been saying this for years: Palladium needs to develop, cultivate talented freelancers and make them line editors.

They may not write for the line they are editors for, but have a vision and direction to implement for that line.

[jaymz]

Setting bibles make this easier for both the editors and writers.

[Rallan]

Setting bibles make this easier for both the editors and writers.

I think at this point, if you tried to write a setting bible for Rifts that acknowledges all the existing work as canon you'd end up with something even more contradictory and inconsistent than the actual Holy Bible.

[drewkitty ~..~]

What is wrong....The rifts labeling template that mislabels classes. Is the most blatant one I can think of.

Then there is the players who want to use the bad Rifts rules in place of the better ones from the other settings. Or use the rules from other settings w/o being along the definitions from those settings that fill out the meaning those rules.

[The Beast]

What is wrong....The rifts labeling template that mislabels classes. Is the most blatant one I can think of.

Then there is the players who want to use the bad Rifts rules in place of the better ones from the other settings. Or use the rules from other settings w/o being along the definitions from those settings that fill out the meaning those rules.

That annoys me more when it's PB itself doing it, or ignoring good rules between settings.

[Zenvis]

Its magic hour. I'm hoping to do the podcast now. Wish me luck.

[jaymz]

[7thCavalry]

Having been gaming for 22 years now, and playing multiple systems, I still return to Palladium as a favored system. People reference systems like 3.5 and point to the systems simplicity, but fail to realize that those systems are bound to be used as an introduction to the world of RPG's. The complexity of the Palladium system is what stands it apart from the rest, and makes it more real-world. That having been said, there are a few...tweaks that could be made to streamline the system.

Character generation is out of order. A new player has no idea what OCC to play, and almost needs to be guided by the hand to a Class. Step 1 should be a VERY brief overview of OCC types (maybe even Tank, Ranged DPS, Melee DPS, Resto headings for the modern beginner). I favor a Q&A style to determine what the player is looking for, and then direct them to the appropriate page to actually READ what the class is/requires. At that point, we can start rolling attributes, determining Psionics, choosing skills, and getting equipment.

Skills have changed a great deal, because of all the systems. I still use some of the skill rules from N&S in Rifts or DR, and here is why: take Acrobatics or Gymnastics...that is the ONLY book that provides a reference for how far a standard character can jump. There is no other reference, and the only other game mechanic that gives a number/formula is Telekinetic Leap, and that's a bonus.

Combat...ahh, the favorite. People are not really sure about things like talking someone down. How does that action measure in attacks? House rule: its a hold action as long as its 10 words or less, more than that, its a full attack. But where is the common rule? Wait, combat for those without HtoH skills state 2 non-combat actions for every attack in a melee...does that count?

Its things like that that people want clarification on. What most people fail to realize is that the flexibility of the rules allows interesting actions. Here's an example: (Chaos Earth) a character leaps off a guard tower where he has been hiding. He grabs a flying probe, using to back flip through the air, quick draw 2 pistols, and on the way down fire at the demon he has been watching through the aforementioned flying probe, and then land on the demon. I made my GM quantify that one, just for the pizzazz points.

Here's the point. A system with no flexibility is not going to make the game better. A system that remains as loose as this one is difficult for a new player to comprehend. How about this; take a few months, look through the system books, and give us a rule book that can be the be-all-end-all streamlined rulebook. Streamline skills, make them the same across the board, that way a smart player can't ramrod something through a harassed GM, and screw a story line.

[Zenvis]

We had a great time recording. It's going to be a regular thing on the podcast. We found an hour didn't cover it. Multiple elements were so briefly touched, it will take a few weeks to explore everything. Thanks guys.

[Zenvis]

There has been a delay on the podcast so that I can read more and more on what we can do (and discuss) those issues that sting the sales and production of Palladium's product.

Well what stings sales are a lack of new product release. Before everyone jumps on me I'm talking about how so many books are said to come out when less than a third actually make it out. From my understanding the CEO rewrites and edits everything that does come out maybe minus the rifter. That's a lot of time away from just finishing one book. As I said before for me it's the presentation. I'm all for color interiors and rules in one place instead of all over the book.

This didn't get discussed but I will bring it up next time.

[Hallsofvallhalla]

What's 'wrong' with the Palladium system?

Nothing..Move on...

What's wrong with your GM? Now that is something I would like to hear a podcast on.


What's wrong with D&D 4th and 5th edition? I don't have enough time in my life to listen to a podcast that long.

[Rallan]

What's 'wrong' with the Palladium system?

Nothing..Move on...

Which is why the market is full of Palladium clones.

[Hallsofvallhalla]

No ruleset will ever be perfect. Anyone who has been playing for more than a few years will tell you that. Matter of fact I would never play a perfect system. They all have flaws but it is those flaws that we use for freedom. We all have our own ideas of how a game should be. When you find a flaw or something you and your players don't like then you change it to fit you and your campaigns. That is the beauty of Pen and Paper RPGS that you will never get from Video games. Think about it. If you played a video game with the issues you seem to find with palladium you just would not play it again. Yet we keep playing Rifts, D&D, White Wolf, Pathfinder, and all the others. Why? Because we make them work. If your games have flaws then that is on the GM to make right. The game you play every week is your game. Not Kevin's. He can't fly around and hold everyone's hand through every session. You have an amazing universe and ground rules now make it your own.
If there are issues with collaborative play or tourneys then maybe that is a manual that needs to come out.

[Killer Cyborg]

What's 'wrong' with the Palladium system?

Nothing..Move on...

Which is why the market is full of Palladium clones.

[Killer Cyborg]

No ruleset will ever be perfect. Anyone who has been playing for more than a few years will tell you that. Matter of fact I would never play a perfect system. They all have flaws but it is those flaws that we use for freedom. We all have our own ideas of how a game should be. When you find a flaw or something you and your players don't like then you change it to fit you and your campaigns. That is the beauty of Pen and Paper RPGS that you will never get from Video games. Think about it. If you played a video game with the issues you seem to find with palladium you just would not play it again. Yet we keep playing Rifts, D&D, White Wolf, Pathfinder, and all the others. Why? Because we make them work. If your games have flaws then that is on the GM to make right. The game you play every week is your game. Not Kevin's. He can't fly around and hold everyone's hand through every session. You have an amazing universe and ground rules now make it your own.
If there are issues with collaborative play or tourneys then maybe that is a manual that needs to come out.

The main problem comes in when Palladium fans try to talk to other Palladium fans about the games that they love, then they all get mad at each other for playing the game "wrong," because every group is essentially playing a different game from each other.
And the problem comes in when customers get mad at Palladium for coming out with new books that conflict with the customers' house rules and interpretations that they think are the official rules.

No ruleset will ever be perfect, but man… I've never seen another game system have a key and common weapon like the C-12 be so badly messed up.
It'd be like in D&D, if the description of crossbows was so messed up that most players didn't really understand how the weapon worked, or how much damage it inflicted.
Unfortunately, it's not just the C-12, either.

[Kryptt]

I wholeheartedly agree with Halls. No system is perfect and non shall ever be. BUUUTTT there is always room for improvement in all systems including rifts, dnd, and any other system. I don't get mad if one group plays robotech one way while another one players it another. It's not a good reason to get upset about it. Not saying Hall is upset. Were all fans here and I'm happy that this thread hasn't turned into people flaming each other.

Looking at the mechanics for rifts or pathfinder or deathwatch can only help evolve the rules/games for new generations of players. Just because say warhammer 40k 2nd ed works for a lot of old timers doesn't mean it'll work for today's new generation of players. People just like rules set change over time. It's just the nature of the beast. Heck Im just glad ironwindmetals finally streamlined the battletech rules.

[Hallsofvallhalla]

Definitely agree and I am far from angry. I am no fanboi nor am I saying Palladium is the greatest system ever either. If you want to get into amazing systems then we got to get outside of commercial products all together or even some systems that failed after 3 books. To be honest it seems like the more "amazing" a system is then the less chance it has to actually make it. Think about it
D&D, ShadowRun, Pathfinder, Any White Wolf game, Savage Lands,.....All horribly flawed systems.

My point was to not say there is nothing wrong with Palladium system but to say there might be something wrong with your GM or any groups that argue on how to use a weapon. You are now missing the point of Pen and Paper games.

2 groups use the C-12 differently you say? Sounds pretty realistic to me. You think Africa and Afganistan uses an AK-47 the same? Heck no! They have changed the bullets, added attachments, heck they even hold it differently! I once had 2 glocks that fired completely differently, same model but one was older and put through a war.

[Sureshot]

Here the thing though most gamers imo and experience want to play RAW. Not spend time trying to fix it. When I play a rpg I want to start playing asap with as little worrying with the rules as possible. I can do it with the system because I have played it since the late 80s. Not everyone wants to do the same. We all do houseruling in our games. It is and never will be a major selling point of any rpg. It's a given that we will houserule. For better or worse gamers both old and new want a system that has had flaws looked it and fixed by the person who created the rpg. Palladium is the only rpg that I have a small set of houserules. D&D at least version 3.5 and after. World of Darknes, Earthdawn, Dresden Files. Almost little to no housrules. In some cases none at all. Not to mention with so many rpgs on the market why should anyone have to waste time trying to make a set of rules to work. A good example is the C-12. I want one rule and only one official rule on how it works. I have enough to worry about at the table.

[Killer Cyborg]

2 groups use the C-12 differently you say? Sounds pretty realistic to me. You think Africa and Afganistan uses an AK-47 the same? Heck no! They have changed the bullets, added attachments, heck they even hold it differently! I once had 2 glocks that fired completely differently, same model but one was older and put through a war.

YEah… the effect on Rifts is akin to if D&D players had different damages for the Broadsword, ranging from 1d8 to 10d10.

If you want a real-world comparison, imagine if bullets in your glock worked just like they do now, but the same bullets in your buddy's glock could make entire trees explode.

In the real world, people can discuss their modifications to firearms, or the factory differences between models and such.
In the game world, different groups not sharing the same understanding of how a gun works changes the nature of their game world, the balance of the game, and so forth… AND it causes a lot of online arguments because they're all reading the same book, but they all end up playing different games without meaning to.

[Kryptt]

Here the thing though most gamers imo and experience want to play RAW. Not spend time trying to fix it. When I play a rpg I want to start playing asap with as little worrying with the rules as possible. I can do it with the system because I have played it since the late 80s. Not everyone wants to do the same. We all do houseruling in our games. It is and never will be a major selling point of any rpg. It's a given that we will houserule. For better or worse gamers both old and new want a system that has had flaws looked it and fixed by the person who created the rpg. Palladium is the only rpg that I have a small set of houserules. D&D at least version 3.5 and after. World of Darknes, Earthdawn, Dresden Files. Almost little to no housrules. In some cases none at all. Not to mention with so many rpgs on the market why should anyone have to waste time trying to make a set of rules to work. A good example is the C-12. I want one rule and only one official rule on how it works. I have enough to worry about at the table.

That's my experience as well. I and many others don't want to have to tinker with the rules unless absolutely necessary. That's why I can't say enough great things about the RPG books that's put out by FFG. In the Star Wars RPG even the use of dice has evolved where it's not what number but symbol you roll. It may not be for everybody but it's an example of pen an paper RPGs evolving. If dnd had stayed as is from it's first incarnation I doubt it would be the monster hit it has become, especially the way it broke through different aspects of society last year. It wasn't just talked about on RPG sites, but dnd became cool again because it evolved with to cater to what today's players want. And like with evolution you'll have hits and misses. Sometimes you just have to take a chance and see if you roll a hard six.

[jaymz]

Here is the thing....when you can have 5 people give you 5 different answers as to how a rule works? That is beyond flawed and a serious problem when you get on a forum such as this with other people who think their way a rule works is THE way a rule works. Combine that with the numerous shadow changes made to the rules in each printing of a core book and here we are.

[Hallsofvallhalla]

Understood and points taken. With so many people agreeing on the same issue then who am I to argue it? However I am a tinker as well as a house rule kind of game. Solitaire and Tic Tac Toe are games without house rules. I like a little flavor with each group I play in. Otherwise I would just place Skyrim and call it a day. It is the changing, misuse, and out right disregard for the rules that can often lead to the best games. But I get it. We should not have to do that. At least however that issue is an easy fix.

If dnd had stayed as is from it's first incarnation I doubt it would be the monster hit it has become, especially the way it broke through different aspects of society last year.

This however I have to disagree with. It is because of D&D's exploitation of players by making so many editions and worthless books that D&D is not bigger than it is. Hence why Pathfinder basically gave it a good kick in the teeth. The amount of money WOTC spends to get it out there should result in a bigger player base. However it still sits in the dark corner of most Hobby Shops while games like Warhammer and Magic are right in the window. New players get confused by all the editions and the old players are tired of buying new editions. Look at Hack Master. Rules from the original edition and it has done very well. It is only until late where they changed the setting and rules as well as took out much of the humor that it has began to decline.

I would guess Dungeons and Dragons has been played by about .01% of the total people who have ever heard of it. Palladium has been played by 80% of the people who ever heard it.

I was a fanboi for D&D for a long time and was willing to look past all the issues it had. 3.5 edition was a slap to the face. 4th and 5th are just plain kicks to the jimmy, bend me over a barrel without vasoline, and give me a good reaming. Horrible Horrible editions. I shutter to even think of them. Especially 5th. OMG it is like they built it for Boy Bands and Call of Duty fruit cakes.

Sorry, Rant about D&D off....

Warning: Trolling. Keep it on topic and there is no need to use such inflammatory rhetoric.

[Forar]

What's 'wrong' with the Palladium system?

Nothing..Move on...

Which is why the market is full of Palladium clones.

Oh snap.

But to be a bit less pithy on the matter; 'no system is perfect' is not a shield against critique. The imperfection of the world does not mean that there aren't valid issues to raise and discuss.

Aside from minor (often unannounced?) changes between printings and an often mocked (?) attempt at consolidation years ago, it's my understanding that Palladium Books prides itself on not changing their system to any significant degree. 'It is a feature, not a bug', as it were, but across three decades of writing, dozens of authors, and hundreds(?) of books, keeping things clear and consistent can become a jumbled mess.

Does this mean they should start over with a version 2, look over the math and streamline some wobbly sections? Not necessarily, but off hand dismissal like this doesn't do us or the system any favours.

Constructive criticism is important to improving, and while there are certainly a few 'lawl Palladium' types out there, I daresay this thread has generally presented themselves as those with ideas for improvement, not out of a desire to bash or mock.

There may be nothing that you personally wish to see changed, but your experience is not everyone's experience.

And before I'm accused of reading too much into a 3 word post, I feel the follow up discussion following it covers most of the bases I address in one fashion or another.

[Killer Cyborg]

If dnd had stayed as is from it's first incarnation I doubt it would be the monster hit it has become, especially the way it broke through different aspects of society last year.

This however I have to disagree with. It is because of D&D's exploitation of players by making so many editions and worthless books that D&D is not bigger than it is.

You're both right, because those two views are not mutually exclusive.
I played Basic D&D back in the day.
It wasn't as good as AD&D.
AD&D 2nd edition had some neat stuff… but it never really grabbed me. (this was when I made the move to mostly playing Palladium games- Palladium had the better system)

3rd edition came along, and blew me away. It had its problems, but most of those were solved by 3.5. Comparing 3.x to Basic D&D is like comparing Shakespeare to Judy Blume.
If the only version of D&D that existed in the world was Basic… White Wolf, GURPS, Palladium, and any number of other systems would have put them out of business, because those companies offer a superior product.

At the same time, I quit playing D&D because I didn't like 4th ed., just like quit playing a long time ago because I didn't really like 2nd ed.
And yeah, 4th ed. was when a heck of a lot of people switched to Pathfinder, or otherwise didn't make the move to 4th.

Changing the system to fit the times and markets is good.
Changing the system too much, to try to control the market is bad.
Ideally, a company should operate somewhere in the middle of those extremes.

[Kryptt]

Anyone here know if Kevin is going to take in what we've said and put it into action or are the suggestions being ignored?

[Hallsofvallhalla]

A lot of bringing up the

Which is why the market is full of Palladium clones.

but I am not sure it really makes any sense. I can't think of one system that has more clones than Palladium which is a total of 0.

Explain a clone to me. Shadowrun clone? Nope..CyberPunk Clone? Nope. Savage Worlds clone? nope. D&D clone? Nope...and the first person to say D&D has a ton of clones because of the genre please just leave the discussion now. The same Genre does not mean a clone. if you are speaking of D20 well then of course, it is open source so many people use it. Look at Traveller or Gamma world. I do not know any clones of those. Are there games out there that hacked a few rules from them? Of course, however no clones as a clone would be sent a cease and desist letter.

I do not know a single non TSR game that utilizes D&D 2nd edition rules yet it was one of the most popular. I do not know a single game like Gamma Worlds and it was the bees knees back in the day.

Matter of fact I think it is quite opposite of that comment. When you look at longest running and most sold books of all RPGs still on the shelf today Palladium is by far a leader. This is coming from a guy who absolutely HATES the Ranged combat rules in Rifts. So why say nothing is wrong? Because a rule fix is easy. However finding any other game that even comes close the massive universe you can take one character through is near impossible and would take a decade to build yourself.

Sorry just not buying the "Which is why the market is full of Palladium clones." crap. It is called a copyright and has nothing to do with the rules.

[Kryptt]

When you look at longest running and most sold books of all RPGs still on the shelf today Palladium is by far a leader.[/quote]

When it comes to PB still being around I like many was surprised it was still around. PB didn't register until the RRT ks. What I'd like to know is where do you get your info that PB books are the most sold books? According to Alex M in one of the updates even he acknowledged that PB sales and fans are in decline over the years. If your info came from the CEO then I'd take it with a grain of salt. I'm not saying it's not true I just don't know where this info comes from.

[Rallan]

Anyone here know if Kevin is going to take in what we've said and put it into action

You kid, no? That is funny joke!

[Hallsofvallhalla]

I never said PB are the most sold books. I said it is a leader. As in it is in the top 3 or even top 5. Simple quantity, variety, and math prove that. All pen and paper RPGs are on the decline and have been for some time. D&D 5th edition sold way under expectations.

I am not interested in getting into a me against the world argument so I am going to exit this conversation at a good time. We can sit here all day and argue about whats wrong or not wrong with Palladium. Won't make a difference to be honest. Play it or don't but no other system will give you the world like Palladium. Ruleset? Yeah there are by far ones better but to be honest I would not change it. We don't need anymore D&D's with several editions that are not compatible.

Made my peace. Good luck with Podcast.

[Sureshot]

PB used to be in the top ten alongside Wotc and White Wolf in the mid to late 90s. They are nowhere near the top 3 let alone the top 5. What proves it is a lack of sales and fans. As for 5E D&D. I don't know where your getting your information. Yet everything I have heard tells me otherwise. There are plenty of other rpg worlds to be had by other rpg companies. Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Eclipse Phase. Palladium does not have or ever had a monoploy on interesting settings. Not to mention why whenever we have a thread like this do people reference D&D. I could understand if PB had done multiple editions of their rpgs. At mist we got RUE. Which was a rehash for the most part imo. . All I want to say to those who say don't change anything. Don't expect any PB renaissance to happen if ever. There will not a sudden resurgence in popularity. Not with the rules as is. I can respect not wanting to see anything change. But don't be unhappy when the popularity of the system is less and less over time. With less and less players running it. As well as less stores carrying product.

Keeping the status quo is simply not going to make things better imo.

[Kryptt]

Halls

I wasn't trying to get into an argument. Sorry if you feel that. Didn't mean any offence.

As for PB being a leader that's a bit hard to believe considering in all my years of gaming I've never seen anyone play it even back in its heyday in the 90's. Perhaps in your circles, but it doesn't even register in the gaming mags of the day. At least that's my experience. Which is certainly different from what you've experienced. Heck even at the con that used to happen by LAX there were non PB events. Don't get me wrong we on the west coast do buy PB books, but good luck finding someone to play. Last year dnd was mentioned in business and hipster blogs. Right now WB and Universal are fighting over the rights to dnd. Whoever wins it's supposed to be their new big franchise.

Again non of this is to antagonize, only to discuss.

[Kryptt]

Anyone here know if Kevin is going to take in what we've said and put it into action

You kid, no? That is funny joke!

[Shark_Force]

A lot of bringing up the

Which is why the market is full of Palladium clones.

but I am not sure it really makes any sense. I can't think of one system that has more clones than Palladium which is a total of 0.

Explain a clone to me. Shadowrun clone? Nope..CyberPunk Clone? Nope. Savage Worlds clone? nope. D&D clone? Nope...and the first person to say D&D has a ton of clones because of the genre please just leave the discussion now. The same Genre does not mean a clone. if you are speaking of D20 well then of course, it is open source so many people use it. Look at Traveller or Gamma world. I do not know any clones of those. Are there games out there that hacked a few rules from them? Of course, however no clones as a clone would be sent a cease and desist letter.

I do not know a single non TSR game that utilizes D&D 2nd edition rules yet it was one of the most popular. I do not know a single game like Gamma Worlds and it was the bees knees back in the day.

Matter of fact I think it is quite opposite of that comment. When you look at longest running and most sold books of all RPGs still on the shelf today Palladium is by far a leader. This is coming from a guy who absolutely HATES the Ranged combat rules in Rifts. So why say nothing is wrong? Because a rule fix is easy. However finding any other game that even comes close the massive universe you can take one character through is near impossible and would take a decade to build yourself.

Sorry just not buying the "Which is why the market is full of Palladium clones." crap. It is called a copyright and has nothing to do with the rules.

heh. no D&D clones, you say?

boy, you sure didn't do your research on that one.

let's start off with hackmaster.

and pathfinder.

to that I can add OSRIC.

in fact, why don't I just link you to this handy-dandy Wikipedia article about D&D retro-clones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_% ... tro-clones

but hey, maybe older editions aren't enough for you. conveniently, Kenzer & Co (who conveniently have a CEO who is also an IP lawyer) released Kingdoms of Kalamar for 4th edition D&D. with no licensing, for the record; copyright didn't protect 4e from getting cloned (you can protect your way of describing your mechanics, but the mechanics themselves apparently can't be protected), so that's not a reason. in fact, they even went so far as to state clearly and unambiguously that it is to be used with 4th edition D&D right on the cover. (have a look for yourself: http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.ph ... cts_id=625 )

then there are numerous other d20 systems, some of which have attempted to essentially recreate 3rd edition, sometimes with their own unique twists (for example, I have a group of friends who are currently playing a d20-based 3.5/4e hybrid system with their own tweaks called 13th age or something like that).

and let's not forget the various video games that use remarkably similar mechanics to D&D without *quite* being D&D (and yes, those do exist; "might and magic" and "the bard's tale", for example, and ultima certainly was heavily influenced at the very least from what I can tell).

so actually... yes. people are *definitely* making D&D clones. quite a few of them, in fact.

in fact, old-school D&D is popular enough that WotC has even been re-releasing some of the older editions recently. in dead tree format, no less. not only are there retro-clones, but those retro-clones are popular enough that WotC has decided they want to get in on the market themselves.

with 5e experiencing what appears to be a reasonable level of success, it is likely that someone will make a clone of *that* as well.

now, I'm certainly not going to suggest that you need to have people making clones of your RPG for your RPG to be considered successful. but if you accept number of clones as a valid metric of RPG popularity, then quite frankly D&D is crushing palladium's works so thoroughly in that department that it isn't even funny.

[Hallsofvallhalla]

Ummm I said in my post D20 doesn't count. It is open source so of course people use the rules. It is the same with OSRIC. So you bring up a good point and what I did a bad job of saying. Palladium is not open source nor have they ever that I know of licensed out to any 3rd parties. So of course there will be no clones while D&D has many "branches". I would still not call them clones. Pathfinder is the branch off in the company and the survival attempts of 3.5ed.

It is a copyright situation. Nothing more hence why I said that comment doesn't make sense.

They are mostly made possible by the terms of the Open Game License and System Reference Document, which allows the use of much of the proprietary terminology of Dungeons & Dragons that might otherwise collectively constitute a copyright infringement.

You are completely wrong on the reprinting of the older editions. The reason behind that is because the sales on 4th ed were so bad that they decided to make 5th ed. There is no point in making more 4th edition when 5th edition is coming out so they had to come up with a revenue stream. Hence the 1st and 2nd edition reprints. That is fact as I got it from the source. You bet your salary on that info.

[Shark_Force]

kingdoms of kalamar, which was specifically released with 4th edition rules and says right on the book that it is doing so, is not a licensed 4th edition product (that is, it doesn't use the 4e GSL). as far as my understanding goes, it also does not use the d20 OGL either.

and it doesn't matter if any of those used the d20 license. the fact of the matter is, they have basically reproduced the rules of earlier editions of D&D (with their own text, not word for word). they are clones, not of 3rd edition, but of older editions of D&D. those games are d20 in name only, and have about as much in common with the SRD as palladium's megaversal system (which, for the record, also resolves things with a d20 roll in many cases; that does not make it a d20 game under the d20 license, it just means that things are resolved by rolling a d20).

and for the record, the only reason for WotC to re-release older editions of D&D in print is if they expect to make money doing so. the only way to do that is if there is a market. "4th edition isn't selling" does not even remotely translate to "there is a market for the red box set". on the other hand, "someone is selling a clone of the red box set and making money doing that" *does* translate to "there is a market for the red box set" very clearly.

[Killer Cyborg]

kingdoms of kalamar, which was specifically released with 4th edition rules and says right on the book that it is doing so, is not a licensed 4th edition product (that is, it doesn't use the 4e GSL). as far as my understanding goes, it also does not use the d20 OGL either.

Not to mention the old Roll Aids adventure modules, which were compatible with D&D and AD&D, and AFAIK had no core book because they fully intended you to just use the D&D rules, and to be able to translate the minor term adjustments (like "Hits To Kill" instead of "Hit Points," etc.).

[zyanitevp]

Anyone here know if Kevin is going to take in what we've said and put it into action

You kid, no? That is funny joke!

Actually I was on the call when this was brought up to Kevin, and he requested to be kept in the loop. He is looking for constructive, legitimate feedback.

[Kryptt]

Anyone here know if Kevin is going to take in what we've said and put it into action

You kid, no? That is funny joke!

Actually I was on the call when this was brought up to Kevin, and he requested to be kept in the loop. He is looking for constructive, legitimate feedback.

I don't doubt you. It's just those who have been around don't expect anything to change considering there has already been a thread asking the same with constructive feedback. Nothing changed then so what's different this time? I'm all for continuing this discussion. Does he want rules suggestions or is he willing to change the layout of the books? I'm all for glossy paper on the insides with color everywhere. The textbook format is off putting for me. I would still like more defined rules for character creation. I'd say more, but there are plenty good suggestions here already.

[Sureshot]

I don't doubt you. It's just those who have been around don't expect anything to change considering there has already been a thread asking the same with constructive feedback. Nothing changed then so what's different this time? I'm all for continuing this discussion. Does he want rules suggestions or is he willing to change the layout of the books? I'm all for glossy paper on the insides with color everywhere. The textbook format is off putting for me. I would still like more defined rules for character creation. I'd say more, but there are plenty good suggestions here already.

Is it really to get legitimate constructive feedback. Or simply another feel good public relations exercise. Make the fans think their feedback matters. Yet nothing acting on any of the suggestions or feedback. So I'm a little shall we say skeptical. As it's been done before and nothing changed really. To be fair though PB is not the only rpg company. Paizo does the same. Have a public playtest. Yet in the end do their own thing. Even if it makes a product worse.

[Glistam]

Things HAVE changed based on fan feedback. Kevin has modified the rules repeatedly based on comments and discussions, then those modifications have been blasted by the community. Case in point: The -10 to dodge rule for modern weapons. It was implemented based on fan comments, then it was adjusted based on fan comments. Palladium games have been updated and adjusted based on fan feedback. There was a time I was told by Palladium there wouldn't be a second edition for Rifts, then (years later) the "Ultimate Edition" came out, which is basically a second edition.

Some people feel things haven't changed enough, while others think they have changed too much. There is no way to make everyone happy, despite what some people think. Kevin's not in an enviable position. At the end of the day, he just wants to make games based on his ideas that fit within his framework that other people can enjoy. Is that too much to ask?

[Josh Hilden]

I know Kevin has made changes over time with an eye toward making fans happy, I used to be deep in the loop myself. But there is a significant difference between patches and an overhaul.

*NOTE: I am NOT criticizing just pointing out a fact.

[Jefffar]

Things have started becoming unnecessarily heated here at times. Remember that constructive criticism is a good thing and helps a system grow and evolve.

[Killer Cyborg]

Things HAVE changed based on fan feedback. Kevin has modified the rules repeatedly based on comments and discussions, then those modifications have been blasted by the community. Case in point: The -10 to dodge rule for modern weapons. It was implemented based on fan comments, then it was adjusted based on fan comments. Palladium games have been updated and adjusted based on fan feedback. There was a time I was told by Palladium there wouldn't be a second edition for Rifts, then (years later) the "Ultimate Edition" came out, which is basically a second edition.

Also, the GI Joe Rule, and other stuff.

[jaymz]

But as is the case over the last 30 years...many such "changes" were not even mentioned when put into the system via reprint shadow changes not to mention many of these "changes" were obviously not play tested per se and feel completely bolted on and piecemeal.