It's the Economy, Stupid!

[michael silverbane]

I see a lot of posts disparaging the lack of coherent economic info for Rifts Earth. Due to different authors views of the value of things, arbitrary pricing schemes, an inscrutable economic formula, or for various other reasons, many of the prices for things versus tidbits of salary information or whatever do not seems to easily fit together.

Has anyone made any sort of a codified attempt to fix this in their own games? What sorts of advice does anyone have regarding running a Rifts game that has something of a focus on economic matters?

[Dog_O_War]

I see a lot of posts disparaging the lack of coherent economic info for Rifts Earth. Due to different authors views of the value of things, arbitrary pricing schemes, an inscrutable economic formula, or for various other reasons, many of the prices for things versus tidbits of salary information or whatever do not seems to easily fit together.

Has anyone made any sort of a codified attempt to fix this in their own games? What sorts of advice does anyone have regarding running a Rifts game that has something of a focus on economic matters?

I could only find posts regarding the problem, with no finished solution. Sorry.

[Library Ogre]

My rule of thumb for most things is "Cost in credits is equal to the cost of a comparable item in American dollars at the time of the question." So, a loaf of bread runs a couple dollars (less for cheap stuff, obviously), and a pick up runs about 30,000cr, and will go about 400 miles on 60 credits worth of gas (whatever type of gas that may be, and assuming some sort of fuel is relatively available).

If an item is MDC, or a weapon does MD damage, I multiply the cost by 10... so an MDC pick-up is going to run 300,000. A quick check shows an AR-15 rifle is about $1000 (a place called Stag Arms advertises them for $895-1479, so about $1000 works for me), and so a semi-automatic assault rifle is going to run you about 1000cr, or 10,000cr if it can do MD damage (and then it's probably a laser rifle). Again, this assumes that such things are moderately available... you can probably by the MDC truck in Houstown for 300,000 credits, but you're not going to be able to buy the only MDC truck in Podunk with a fistful of credits... nor for a few credits more.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's a simple and intuitive. By mapping the the real-world economy, there's some fluctuations, and I can freely change things if I want to, or need to for the story (e.g. water costing a lot in a drought, or someone flooding the market with e-clips). The SDC/MDC cost breaks work along the Sam Vimes theory of economic injustice.

[random_username]

My rule of thumb for most things is "Cost in credits is equal to the cost of a comparable item in American dollars at the time of the question." So, a loaf of bread runs a couple dollars (less for cheap stuff, obviously), and a pick up runs about 30,000cr, and will go about 400 miles on 60 credits worth of gas (whatever type of gas that may be, and assuming some sort of fuel is relatively available).

If an item is MDC, or a weapon does MD damage, I multiply the cost by 10... so an MDC pick-up is going to run 300,000. A quick check shows an AR-15 rifle is about $1000 (a place called Stag Arms advertises them for $895-1479, so about $1000 works for me), and so a semi-automatic assault rifle is going to run you about 1000cr, or 10,000cr if it can do MD damage (and then it's probably a laser rifle). Again, this assumes that such things are moderately available... you can probably by the MDC truck in Houstown for 300,000 credits, but you're not going to be able to buy the only MDC truck in Podunk with a fistful of credits... nor for a few credits more.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's a simple and intuitive. By mapping the the real-world economy, there's some fluctuations, and I can freely change things if I want to, or need to for the story (e.g. water costing a lot in a drought, or someone flooding the market with e-clips). The SDC/MDC cost breaks work along the Sam Vimes theory of economic injustice.

Between Mercenaries and Merc Ops many of those basics are essentially covered in detail. Costs for listed equipment rather than any logistical/economic theory stuff that is.

[Mack]

If an item is MDC, or a weapon does MD damage, I multiply the cost by 10... so an MDC pick-up is going to run 300,000. A quick check shows an AR-15 rifle is about $1000 (a place called Stag Arms advertises them for $895-1479, so about $1000 works for me), and so a semi-automatic assault rifle is going to run you about 1000cr, or 10,000cr if it can do MD damage (and then it's probably a laser rifle). Again, this assumes that such things are moderately available... you can probably by the MDC truck in Houstown for 300,000 credits, but you're not going to be able to buy the only MDC truck in Podunk with a fistful of credits... nor for a few credits more.

I see what you did there.

[Library Ogre]

If an item is MDC, or a weapon does MD damage, I multiply the cost by 10... so an MDC pick-up is going to run 300,000. A quick check shows an AR-15 rifle is about $1000 (a place called Stag Arms advertises them for $895-1479, so about $1000 works for me), and so a semi-automatic assault rifle is going to run you about 1000cr, or 10,000cr if it can do MD damage (and then it's probably a laser rifle). Again, this assumes that such things are moderately available... you can probably by the MDC truck in Houstown for 300,000 credits, but you're not going to be able to buy the only MDC truck in Podunk with a fistful of credits... nor for a few credits more.

I see what you did there.

Leave me Leone. I Clint think of anything I need to Spain better...

[Daniel Stoker]

Die... die in a fire there Mark.


Daniel Stoker

[Library Ogre]

Die... die in a fire there Mark.


Daniel Stoker

[Tor]

Any policy of basing credit costs on IRL dollar costs should defer to credit costs where they are known.

It'd be nice to compile costs hidden in various world books into an aesthetic list like PF2nd did for a bunch of stuff though.

Part of the issue is that quality or availability can alter things though. Vampire Kingdoms has alcohol costing anything from 1 to 5 credits, same with food depending on if you're getting a mere pastry, beans+bread or french cuisine, and rooms from 20 to hundreds. Just an almanac of costs for easy comparison would be good though. I'm sure merchants in Rifts would've done this.

Of course the cost of fuel and time driving/walking down to a location to buy stuff has to be taken into account as well.

[Kagashi]

The Economy of Rifts follows a version of the Palladium Law of Inverse Power which states: "An object of the same category that is twice as big as another is only 50% more powerful than the smaller."

The only difference is, that is backwards concerning the economy: "An object of the same category, same time period, and same manufacturer that is 50% more powerful than another is twice as expensive."

This is why an Enforcer which offers only 100 MDC more and a die roll higher from its main gun than a SAMAS is 17.5 times more expensive. It does not make sense as to why any organization would even dump that amount of money into something when they can buy the less expensive option and end up having more flexibility and power (two SAMAS bring in a collective 500 MDC and 2D4x10 damage per melee round as opposed to the Enforcers 350 MDC and 1D6X10 per melee round...utilizing the same pilots to control them).

To combat this, I have seen people do various adjustments to power and cost.

- Small Arms, Body Armor, Vehicles (non Tank/APC or Robot), Exo-Skeletons and Power Armor: No change. These items are fairly close in cost vs capabilities when compared to one another.

-Robots: (as I define as having a Reinforced Pilots Compartment, so a North American GB would get this treatment where as a Triax one would not)
Weapon Damage, Weapon Range (Except missiles), and MDC: DOUBLE
Cost: Half listed book price

-Tanks:
Weapon Damage and Weapon Range: DOUBLE
MDC: TRIPLE
Cost: Half listed book price

Additionally, magic items are way out of balance as well...why buy a multi million credit magic sword that does less damage than a vibro sword? I suggest magic items needs to be 10-50% the listed cost, depending on rarity of the item. This will put magic items more on par of actually being sold and bought compared to the tech that has flooded the market. Case in point, people are only going to pay for something if they think its worth it. An Armor of Ithan Amulet is going to sit on the shelf for years priced at 20 million credits while other units like Naruni FFs are going to sell much faster at a fraction of the cost. A two million AOI Amulet is more likely to sell when compared to the Super Heavy Naruni FF, and its abilities reflect as such.

Repairs, reloads and eclip recharging: I really never liked how recharging an eclip was so darn expensive. I have seen others make a house rule that recharging eclips require some sort of physical repair like changing out the capacitors or something. This helps justify the high cost. Or just slash the cost to 10% since Northern Gun now sells a portable eclip recharger for only like 700k or something insanely low, which is what I do.

Then there is the idea that adventurers get paid crazy amounts of money to do simple jobs, just to deal with repairs, reloads, and upgrades for the next adventure. Just where are these credits coming from? Who can afford to pay people this amount of money? By lowering the cost of the high end stuff, adventurers do not need to be paid out ridiculous amounts of cash just to make sense in this game.

[Shadow Wyrm]

Guys. I don't think any game designer ever took an Econ. class.

[Nightmask]

Guys. I don't think any game designer ever took an Econ. class.

I'm sure some have, they also probably realized making it too realistic would bog the game down. Makes for a hard balance to pull off.

[michael silverbane]

Any policy of basing credit costs on IRL dollar costs should defer to credit costs where they are known.

Why do you say that?

[Tor]

Because prices printed in the book outweigh prices we assign based on our own out of ease, in terms of canon.

As for the SAMAS v Enforcer comparison: I think the missile-launching capabilities of the enforcer, the higher degree of comfort (being able to move around out of armor inside) may not be taken into effect, it's not just about their MDC and their rail guns.

An Enforcer could probably take out of pair of SAMs before they got close enough to use their rail guns. Each could only shoot down 2 volleys before they are out of minis, so the enforcer could bait them by using his minis or shorts and then when they run out, whip out the mediums.