New Sourcebook Suggestions.

[Seto Kaiba]

So we have the entire fleet, or is it most of the fleet or is it just three ships missing? Is that supposed to be the entire fleet on screen or is it possible there are other elements off screen?

No mention or reference is made to other fleet elements offscreen... as in the series, it was supposed to be one massed attack.

Not all of these ground troops would be survivors from the various Mars divisions sent in earlier (most of them seem to have been vanquished at Point K).

True, a few might have been survivors of advanced recon units like the ones we saw get massacred in episode 83.

Which is still scouting.

If they're not looking for an enemy, it's really more cartography than anything...

Which quite frankly seems pretty stupid from a logistics standpoint. The SDF-1 had trouble dealing w/70k people w/n 12-1/2month period, the AA and Angel classes may be bigger than the SDF-1 but they aren't going to have an easier of a time it, especially if they are tossing in multipliers of extra people.

There's a lot of stuff in Robotech that is fabulously stupid from a logistics standpoint... but if Tommy wants to make things like Macross in his Shadow Chronicles story that's his call even if it isn't necessarily the most efficient way to go about it.

(Though it's hardly important, as colonization in Robotech was always meant to be a non-starter from the minute Tommy first crowbarred it in.)

No you can get 750k in there (multiple decks). It really depends how much space is reserved for the colonists, and how that space is allocated. The problem with building City Districts inside the ships is that they tend to result in a lot of wasted space.

Considering the design of the ship, the colonists would almost certainly be confined to the area between the hangars and the engine systems, which doesn't give them a heck of a lot of room. Even the best-case scenario of them using the entire floorplan of the ship bodes ill.

Lets say that the colonists have 1sq km per level, and they have 20 levels (per the Size Comparison Chart at RT.com the ship is similar in height to the SDF-1/3 so not unreasonable)

It doesn't work if you look at the physical dimensions of what you just suggested... the ship would need to be several times bigger for that to work.

What is odd is that both the Tok. and SDF-3 & SDF-4 all have capacities for passengers/crew that get into 100,000+ people.

These numbers are pretty comical on the face of it... unless these ships are literally bigger on the inside than the outside.

You could fit the entire UEEF into a single Tokugawa-class ship now, eh?

Which doesn't work for several reasons:
1. Leonard was not counting Zentraedi in that statement, who are as the show establishes essentially human, if he excluded one group of people there could be others.

The Zentradi that are supposed to be functionally extinct, and the remainder of whom had left Earth seven years previously?

You don't count absent people and corpses.

2. To get the populations we see in later arcs, those 70k people would have to have had an unrealistic growth rate

That is predicated entirely upon a baseless assumption about the populations in later arcs...

3. We know that the devastation of the Earth was not 100%, so any people in those areas might not be counted as survivors

Why would Leonard not count them if he'd referring to the descendants of the survivors of the Rain of Death?

That may not work. The listed size of the Shimakaze-class has it nearly as long as an Ikazuchi (548m vs 608m hull more w/engine shields and antenna).

Officially, the entire front half of that ship is given over to weapons... not crew space. It was originally a colossal detachable ammo space for missile launchers, before being converted into a single large synchro cannon.

In RT, no we do not see anything like Stasis chambers for Zentreadi in the show. What you might be thinking of is the cloning chambers. Baring that example, you might be thinking of the Macross2 OVA, which is not part of Robotech, where we see the Zentran "sleeping".

Even that wasn't stasis... that was, explicitly, just mind control apparatus.

[Jefffar]

The Zentradi Assault was a massed attack as well and we don't see the entire fleet either.

I don't think we can say that the total numbers of ships visible in Shadow Chronicles is actually an accurate count of the total strength of the UEEF fleet, just like we can't say that the total numbers of Clamships we see in the same sequence is an accurate count of all the ships the Regis had either. Both are artistic representations that, like the Zentraedi Armada and Breetai's fleet are smaller than the actual numbers in order to simplify the job of the animators.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Zentradi Assault was a massed attack as well and we don't see the entire fleet either.

Merely a matter of differences in scale... the Zentradi fleet was MILLIONS of ships encircling the entire Earth with the stated intent of attacking the entire planetary surface. It's only natural they wouldn't all fit in one shot, though the show helpfully tells us how many ships were there.

As practically every Robotech source will cheerfully tell you, the UEEF's attack in 2044 was a focused strike on a single target... Reflex Point. Which would, of course, be why it's called "The Battle of Reflex Point". You don't need to encircle an entire planet to attack a target barely the size of a county.

I don't think we can say that the total numbers of ships visible in Shadow Chronicles is actually an accurate count of the total strength of the UEEF fleet,

You would, of course, be wrong to assert that... we're shown quite clearly in the Shadow Chronicles film that that's the fleet (395 ships strong) meant to attack Reflex Point. No other fleet is mentioned or alluded to, and canon sources would have it that this was most of the UEEF's forces. (It's worth noting that there are actually MORE ships shown in RTSC than were supposed to be present in the series source animation... and equally interesting is that the RPG goes one step further and asserts the Reflex Point attack fleet to be the full force of the UEEF, the whole hog as it were.)

[Jefffar]

You don't need to surround a planet, for sure, but that doesn't mean you don't pull a flanking manoeuvre and send in some assault groups hugging the horizon from the far side of the planet. The attempts to communicate with other divisional commanders hints that something like that may be taking place. It isn't conclusive that this occurred, I know, but there are definitely UEEF forces we don't see in action that participate in the battle. The exact size of these compliments is debatable of course.

Likewise, as shown repeatedly in the earlier sagas, counting ships on screen doesn't give a total number for fleet size.

So yes, we can say the bulk if not the totality of the available UEEF fleet was thrown into the fight for Earth, but we can't establish a conclusive number for the size of that force or any other major force based on visuals alone as they aren't a reliable indicator.



*** Bringing this back to topic - there are spaces and possibilities offered by what is left unsaid in the series. Times when action can occur that is either overshadowed by the onscreen action or is not a part of the actual time frames covered by the shows themselves. I'd say looking at the ereas between the shows is probably the most fruitful for action that can occur without contradicting the show.

[ShadowLogan]

If they're not looking for an enemy, it's really more cartography than anything...

Except they have no real information apparently about those systems, so they can be looking for the enemy and/or potential enemies. We don't have an actual idea of how far out Earth is from Tirolian & Zentreadi Territory proper, so there could be unknown enemies "next door".

Considering the design of the ship, the colonists would almost certainly be confined to the area between the hangars and the engine systems, which doesn't give them a heck of a lot of room. Even the best-case scenario of them using the entire floorplan of the ship bodes ill.

That is pretty much where I see them confined, but the ship is over 2km long for the main hull, with extensions that push that out to nearly 2.6km long, but those don't really contribute here. We aren't given a specific height (size chart not withstanding), nor a specific width.

It doesn't work if you look at the physical dimensions of what you just suggested... the ship would need to be several times bigger for that to work.

There is no need to duplicate the city leveled aspect as on the SDF-1, so they can put in more levels. And the dimensions can work:

The ship's main bull is 2.1km long, it has a ratio of 5:1 for the height (not counting the tower) so ~0.42km height as depicted in animation. Assuming that holds/is close, the width is shown to be 3:1 of the height (so ~1.26km) of the height roughly (it was at a slight angle). At 1/3 the length available that is 0.7km x 1.26km wide per section for area of 0.88km^2 per level (not quite 1km^2, so it just means we need more levels or have more cramped conditions, but still not enough to make Earth's most densly packed cities look like ghost towns). If the 420m in height holds (or close enough) and if we assume the decks are 3m in height each on average, you can squeeze in 140 levels, which gives plenty of room to fit those 750k people.

The Zentradi that are supposed to be functionally extinct, and the remainder of whom had left Earth seven years previously?

You don't count absent people and corpses.

Except that Leonard is also looking at descendants, and we know at least one person in attendance was of mixed ancestry. So the Zentreadi have on some level contributed to the people in attendance. If they are being omitted, that casts doubt about the validity of the 70k population IMHO since the Zentraedi did contribute to reconstruction and population.

that is predicated entirely upon a baseless assumption about the populations in later arcs...

Not really. TSC states there are still millions of people on Earth. You would need a growth rate of 10% just to reach ~1.6million people in 2044 starting with 70,000 in 2011. That covers Earth, that doesn't consider the people out in space. That assumes a flat growth rate during the period. Nor is it considering other factors that would push the population down around 2030, nor any potential Zentreadi adding to the popluation of 70k. Human Population growth peaked is said to have peaked in the 1960s at 2.2%, that's nearly 5x higher that what we need to get even in the ball park for TSC's stated population back on Earth.

Why would Leonard not count them if he'd referring to the descendants of the survivors of the Rain of Death?

Because they really wouldn't be seen as survivors of the Rain of Death if the RoD did not occur where they where.

Officially, the entire front half of that ship is given over to weapons... not crew space. It was originally a colossal detachable ammo space for missile launchers, before being converted into a single large synchro cannon.

Still, it is not safe to assume that the Shim. is comparable to a Garfish based on size. The ARMD is of comparable size to a Tri-Star, but packs in more mecha and crew. An Orberth and TriStar are also of comparable size, but the Tri-Star has a far larger crew, and mecha complement. Even the ARMD and Ikazuchi can be used to show its not a safe assumption.

Even that wasn't stasis... that was, explicitly, just mind control apparatus.

I do recall that it was identified as mind control being done, but the occupants where also asleep, which could be mistaken or misremembered as stasis is my point.

[Seto Kaiba]

You don't need to surround a planet, for sure, but that doesn't mean you don't pull a flanking manoeuvre and send in some assault groups hugging the horizon from the far side of the planet.

But the RTSC movie itself presents this as impractical... even Shadow fighters were risking detection just by getting close to the high orbital debris belt.

Likewise, as shown repeatedly in the earlier sagas, counting ships on screen doesn't give a total number for fleet size.

Apples and oranges, my good fellow, as I have already indicated.

*** Bringing this back to topic - there are spaces and possibilities offered by what is left unsaid in the series. Times when action can occur that is either overshadowed by the onscreen action or is not a part of the actual time frames covered by the shows themselves. I'd say looking at the ereas between the shows is probably the most fruitful for action that can occur without contradicting the show.

It's indisputable that there are spaces where things could be done... the question is more one of what Harmony Gold will permit Palladium to do before they start vetoing things for breaking the setting, and what areas Harmony Gold would rather Palladium's staff left alone.

That is pretty much where I see them confined, but the ship is over 2km long for the main hull, with extensions that push that out to nearly 2.6km long, but those don't really contribute here. We aren't given a specific height (size chart not withstanding), nor a specific width.

It's easy enough to extrapolate from the line art and size comparison on Robotech.com... though the bay windows that are the one defining trait of the colony bays make it trickier to get a precise width of the interior spaces, so I tend to just compute it as if all decks ran to the maximum cross-section of the ship.

If the 420m in height holds (or close enough) and if we assume the decks are 3m in height each on average, you can squeeze in 140 levels, which gives plenty of room to fit those 750k people.

We can't assume that whole height is available because the art in AotSC shows us that the upper and lower levels of the rear half of the ship are devoted to hangar space and launch bays... plus we have to make allowances for the engines and power systems, all of the supplies, etc.

Except that Leonard is also looking at descendants, and we know at least one person in attendance was of mixed ancestry.

Which is, by all accounts, surpassingly rare... the sole exemplar's father being one of the survivors of the Rain of Death.

Because they really wouldn't be seen as survivors of the Rain of Death if the RoD did not occur where they where.

It was, per the description, a worldwide calamity.

[Jefffar]

Not to mention the speaker (Leonard) is also a survivor of the Rain of Death who wasn't aboard the SDF-1. The currently approved origins place him elsewhere at the time.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not to mention the speaker (Leonard) is also a survivor of the Rain of Death who wasn't aboard the SDF-1. The currently approved origins place him elsewhere at the time.

I'm afraid this is also an entirely inaccurate statement... remember, the RPG is not canon.

Now, I know what you're referring to here is the RPG's origin story for Leonard and the Army of the Southern Cross... a story that is contradicting canon in more than a few places. The important contradiction here is that Leonard is said to have survived the Rain of Death by the sheer good fortune of an assignment to Antarctica Base, but in canon that base had been nuked clean off the map by a hijacked ARMD's reflex warheads in an Anti-Unification League terrorist attack orchestrated by Leonard himself.

Leonard can't have survived the Rain of Death by assignment to a base that ceased to exist before the Rain of Death occurred.

[Jefffar]

Not to mention the speaker (Leonard) is also a survivor of the Rain of Death who wasn't aboard the SDF-1. The currently approved origins place him elsewhere at the time.

I'm afraid this is also an entirely inaccurate statement... remember, the RPG is not canon.

Now, I know what you're referring to here is the RPG's origin story for Leonard and the Army of the Southern Cross... a story that is contradicting canon in more than a few places. The important contradiction here is that Leonard is said to have survived the Rain of Death by the sheer good fortune of an assignment to Antarctica Base, but in canon that base had been nuked clean off the map by a hijacked ARMD's reflex warheads in an Anti-Unification League terrorist attack orchestrated by Leonard himself.

Leonard can't have survived the Rain of Death by assignment to a base that ceased to exist before the Rain of Death occurred.

Well, the original base was. Is there anything that says a new one wasn't built?

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, the original base was. Is there anything that says a new one wasn't built?

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that any effort was ever made to rebuild the base... and Admiral Hayes indicates, after the hijacked ARMD is disabled and peace restored, that they intend to focus on completing Alaska Base and its Grand Cannon.


Leonard's speech in the series corroborates the earlier remarks in the series about the Rain of Death only having been survived by 70,000 people, and since only two places are canonically presented as having survivors (The SDF-1 and Alaska Base) and the total survivor count from the SDF-1 pretty thoroughly eats almost the entire allocation, that means Leonard could only have been in one of two places... Alaska Base, or aboard the SDF-1.

We know Leonard was not assigned to Alaska Base, so that tends to narrow the field right the heck down...

[eliakon]

Not to mention the speaker (Leonard) is also a survivor of the Rain of Death who wasn't aboard the SDF-1. The currently approved origins place him elsewhere at the time.

I'm afraid this is also an entirely inaccurate statement... remember, the RPG is not canon.

Now, I know what you're referring to here is the RPG's origin story for Leonard and the Army of the Southern Cross... a story that is contradicting canon in more than a few places. The important contradiction here is that Leonard is said to have survived the Rain of Death by the sheer good fortune of an assignment to Antarctica Base, but in canon that base had been nuked clean off the map by a hijacked ARMD's reflex warheads in an Anti-Unification League terrorist attack orchestrated by Leonard himself.

Leonard can't have survived the Rain of Death by assignment to a base that ceased to exist before the Rain of Death occurred.

Curiosity? What/where is this terrorist attack described?

[Jefffar]

Well, the original base was. Is there anything that says a new one wasn't built?

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that any effort was ever made to rebuild the base... and Admiral Hayes indicates, after the hijacked ARMD is disabled and peace restored, that they intend to focus on completing Alaska Base and its Grand Cannon.


Leonard's speech in the series corroborates the earlier remarks in the series about the Rain of Death only having been survived by 70,000 people, and since only two places are canonically presented as having survivors (The SDF-1 and Alaska Base) and the total survivor count from the SDF-1 pretty thoroughly eats almost the entire allocation, that means Leonard could only have been in one of two places... Alaska Base, or aboard the SDF-1.

We know Leonard was not assigned to Alaska Base, so that tends to narrow the field right the heck down...

But is he ever officially listed on the SDF-1 at the time?

Currently the only location given for him in a Harmony Gold approved source that I am aware of places him in Antarctica at the time of the attack.

The same Harmony Gold approved source indicates there were other survivors in Antarctica and South America.

[ShadowLogan]

It's easy enough to extrapolate from the line art and size comparison on Robotech.com... though the bay windows that are the one defining trait of the colony bays make it trickier to get a precise width of the interior spaces, so I tend to just compute it as if all decks ran to the maximum cross-section of the ship.

That is my approach to. While I am assuming the entire height is available, I do recognize that it would not be, but for this purpose it is largely irrelevant how much of the "height" is lost to deck thickness and other factors. We are primarily concerned with showing the population density doesn't have to make your assessment of making Manila look like a Ghost Town.

Which is, by all accounts, surpassingly rare... the sole exemplar's father being one of the survivors of the Rain of Death.

Rare in so much as people talking about their family history. Earth and Pioneer/Space could have vastly different family history break downs.

It was, per the description, a worldwide calamity.

In terms of primary effects it was not 100% coverage, there where gaps which would allow people to escape. That would leave them to potentially perish from secondary effects, but those secondary effects may not be regarded in the same manner as the primary. Just look at the 2 surivors in canon, Lisa survived (technically more did, but likely lost their life when they tried to use the Grand Cannon again) in the show. And we know coverage wasn't 100% either, and that NYC appears to have escaped actual devastation to still be largely intact in 2044.

The important contradiction here is that Leonard is said to have survived the Rain of Death by the sheer good fortune of an assignment to Antarctica Base, but in canon that base had been nuked clean off the map by a hijacked ARMD's reflex warheads in an Anti-Unification League terrorist attack orchestrated by Leonard himself.

And they couldn't build a new facility post event or even have had additional bases in the region (there are several such bases today) because?... Leonard's assignment in Antarctica was more R&D than managing a BFG installation IIRC.

Curiosity? What/where is this terrorist attack described?

"From the Stars" Graphic Novel/comic series.

[Seto Kaiba]

But is he ever officially listed on the SDF-1 at the time?

There is quite literally nowhere else he could be, in canon Robotech... as we know he was not assigned to the Grand Cannon in Alaska.

Currently the only location given for him in a Harmony Gold approved source that I am aware of places him in Antarctica at the time of the attack.

The same Harmony Gold approved source indicates there were other survivors in Antarctica and South America.

Um... you do realize that's a completely meaningless statement, yes?

At no point has Harmony Gold ever considered the Palladium Books RPG to be a valid or canon source for Robotech's official continuity. That the book was "approved" by Harmony Gold means nothing more or less than that they glanced over its contents once to ensure that it didn't contain any rampant, setting-breaking silliness like Lancer's Rockers or giant Alphas, and that its quality was sufficient for them to feel they wouldn't regret allowing its release later the way they did with 1E.

That is my approach to. While I am assuming the entire height is available, I do recognize that it would not be, but for this purpose it is largely irrelevant how much of the "height" is lost to deck thickness and other factors. We are primarily concerned with showing the population density doesn't have to make your assessment of making Manila look like a Ghost Town. [...]

Strictly speaking, we're concerned with the population density on two fronts:
1. In the Tommy Yune "wandering space city" view
2. In the "maximum efficiency" view

For purpose of estimating the internal space losses associated with the upper and lower hangar decks, I would subtract the rough height of two such decks as seen on the Ikazuchi (something like 40m off the top and bottom in total) to provide space for a mecha to be put on a crane and hoisted around as we see occur with aircraft in some of the earlier sagas.

Rare in so much as people talking about their family history. Earth and Pioneer/Space could have vastly different family history break downs.

Pretty sure there'd have been issues with the fairly blatant and vocal anti-alien views of many UEEF troops if hybrids were all over hell's half-acre. That's not factoring in that the Zentradi are allegedly functionally extinct by the 2040s, and may have crossed the line into "almost completely extinct" in 2043 with the loss of the UEEF's Zentradi forces.

Mind you, as far as 30 years of Robotech lore go, human-alien hybrids are exceedingly rare... to the point where you could count them on one hand. (It's unlikely any more will appear, as Harmony Gold is very keen to bury the whole Zentradi thing for future titles.)

In terms of primary effects it was not 100% coverage, there where gaps which would allow people to escape. That would leave them to potentially perish from secondary effects, but those secondary effects may not be regarded in the same manner as the primary.

The end result is the same, so let's not make any bones about that... if they came down with a bad case of dead because of the Rain of Death directly or because of its immediate secondary effects, they're casualties of the Rain of Death ("Zentradi Holocaust").

Just look at the 2 surivors in canon, Lisa survived (technically more did, but likely lost their life when they tried to use the Grand Cannon again) in the show.

That was only because they were in a unique (due to loss of the other one) underground shelter 6km (or was it 6 miles in RT?) that didn't sustain a direct hit only because it was so deep underground. Even then, practically nobody survived, and by the time the dust settled, the total number of survivors was 2 in that unique base designed to resist the worst alien attackers could throw at Earth... one of whom was badly injured.

And we know coverage wasn't 100% either, and that NYC appears to have escaped actual devastation to still be largely intact in 2044.

I know we've gone over this many times before, but there is no proof that the rebuild-it-exactly-like-it-was tendencies of humans in the first Robotech war didn't extend to famous landmarks in NYC. There's no actual proof that NYC escaped devastation.

And they couldn't build a new facility post event or even have had additional bases in the region (there are several such bases today) because?... Leonard's assignment in Antarctica was more R&D than managing a BFG installation IIRC.

They can't ALL be named "Antarctica Base"... and they're said to be focusing on the SDF-1 and Grand Cannon in Alaska.

(Also, weren't Leonard and Edwards both taken off of mecha R&D at the end of "From the Stars"?)

[eliakon]

But is he ever officially listed on the SDF-1 at the time?

There is quite literally nowhere else he could be, in canon Robotech... as we know he was not assigned to the Grand Cannon in Alaska.

Currently the only location given for him in a Harmony Gold approved source that I am aware of places him in Antarctica at the time of the attack.

The same Harmony Gold approved source indicates there were other survivors in Antarctica and South America.

Um... you do realize that's a completely meaningless statement, yes?

At no point has Harmony Gold ever considered the Palladium Books RPG to be a valid or canon source for Robotech's official continuity. That the book was "approved" by Harmony Gold means nothing more or less than that they glanced over its contents once to ensure that it didn't contain any rampant, setting-breaking silliness like Lancer's Rockers or giant Alphas, and that its quality was sufficient for them to feel they wouldn't regret allowing its release later the way they did with 1E.

Is the comic that he is in considered canon currently?

And we know coverage wasn't 100% either, and that NYC appears to have escaped actual devastation to still be largely intact in 2044.

I know we've gone over this many times before, but there is no proof that the rebuild-it-exactly-like-it-was tendencies of humans in the first Robotech war didn't extend to famous landmarks in NYC. There's no actual proof that NYC escaped devastation.

The claim that this, and other cities, was rebuild exactly like it was before, to include slums, war damage, and the like is a rather extraordinary claim. It requires a rather high burden of proof otherwise the simplest answer (that it was not destroyed) would suffice.
This is especially important since the HG website says that the devastation is 'near total' and only 'over 70% of the earths surface is devistated' over 70% is not 100% though.....which means that if you want to make a claim that runs counter to the official information put out by HG you will need a citation for it....

And they couldn't build a new facility post event or even have had additional bases in the region (there are several such bases today) because?... Leonard's assignment in Antarctica was more R&D than managing a BFG installation IIRC.

They can't ALL be named "Antarctica Base"... and they're said to be focusing on the SDF-1 and Grand Cannon in Alaska.

(Also, weren't Leonard and Edwards both taken off of mecha R&D at the end of "From the Stars"?)

Is that comic still canon?
And military bases can cover areas of hundreds of square miles in real life with dozens of separate installations....
Especially if they are replacement facilities, or taking over another destroyed bases job....

[Seto Kaiba]

Is the comic that he is in considered canon currently?

Yes... that particular comic was the "pilot" for the rebooted Robotech universe.

The claim that this, and other cities, was rebuild exactly like it was before, to include slums, war damage, and the like is a rather extraordinary claim. It requires a rather high burden of proof otherwise the simplest answer (that it was not destroyed) would suffice.

Pretty sure a decade-plus of Invid occupation and one or two alien invasions probably helped with the "slums and war damage" bit.

This is especially important since the HG website says that the devastation is 'near total' and only 'over 70% of the earths surface is devistated' over 70% is not 100% though.....which means that if you want to make a claim that runs counter to the official information put out by HG you will need a citation for it....

You are, of course, aware that only 29.2% of Earth's surface is land, right?

70% of Earth's surface would be enough to devastate all of Earth's landmass twice over with room to spare.

Is that comic still canon?
And military bases can cover areas of hundreds of square miles in real life with dozens of separate installations....
Especially if they are replacement facilities, or taking over another destroyed bases job....

As noted previously, the answer to your question is "Yes".

With respect to this particular base, we know pretty much exactly what the layout was because Antarctica Base was a second Grand Cannon system*, and Harmony Gold's official description thereof indicates that such bases consist of "only a handful of towers and a small landing strip to mark it's location on the surface" with the rest of the facility six miles or so underground. Considering they'd only barely finished the Alaskan one in ten years, that's not the sort of installation they'd be able to rebuild overnight.

(Never mind that it appears Leonard, like Edwards, was canonically taken off R&D duty in addition to the base the RPG alleges he served as being annihilated.)


* One of many aspects of Macross that Robotech decided to imitate post-reboot was the existence of more than one Grand Cannon system... only two though, instead of the five that existed in Macross.

[ShadowLogan]

For purpose of estimating the internal space losses associated with the upper and lower hangar decks, I would subtract the rough height of two such decks as seen on the Ikazuchi (something like 40m off the top and bottom in total) to provide space for a mecha to be put on a crane and hoisted around as we see occur with aircraft in some of the earlier sagas.

So basically sacrificing ~26-7 decks out of 140 decks at 3m tall each. That still leaves a lot more than the 20 decks example used previously.

Pretty sure there'd have been issues with the fairly blatant and vocal anti-alien views of many UEEF troops if hybrids were all over hell's half-acre. That's not factoring in that the Zentradi are allegedly functionally extinct by the 2040s, and may have crossed the line into "almost completely extinct" in 2043 with the loss of the UEEF's Zentradi forces.

The Zentreadi may be functionally extinct by the 2040s, but their contribution would most likely be in the 2010s and 2020s in terms of offspring appearing, and those off-spring may not be regarded as Zentreadi.

I'm not sure if I would describe it as "many UEEF troops" as an indication of the organization as a whole given the sample count. And a good percentage of those w/anti-alien views seem more focused on the Invid than in general.

Mind you, as far as 30 years of Robotech lore go, human-alien hybrids are exceedingly rare... to the point where you could count them on one hand. (It's unlikely any more will appear, as Harmony Gold is very keen to bury the whole Zentradi thing for future titles.)

I agree about the rarity in 30years, but if we are looking for ways for them to boost the population there aren't very many options.

The end result is the same, so let's not make any bones about that... if they came down with a bad case of dead because of the Rain of Death directly or because of its immediate secondary effects, they're casualties of the Rain of Death ("Zentradi Holocaust").

True, but at the same time if people are surviving long enough to get to the secondary effects, there is a chance they could survive even longer. For those outside of those areas all together they really wouldn't be survivors.

That was only because they were in a unique (due to loss of the other one) underground shelter 6km (or was it 6 miles in RT?) that didn't sustain a direct hit only because it was so deep underground. Even then, practically nobody survived, and by the time the dust settled, the total number of survivors was 2 in that unique base designed to resist the worst alien attackers could throw at Earth... one of whom was badly injured.

The GC was 5miles in RT.

While the GC installation was better designed than most places on Earth, we have the example of NYC still being relatively intact in 2044 even after the Invid arrived. Yes we don't know if it was reconstructed for the hell of it or escaped the bombardment since we aren't actually shown NYC being destroyed in the RoD.

They can't ALL be named "Antarctica Base"... and they're said to be focusing on the SDF-1 and Grand Cannon in Alaska.

(Also, weren't Leonard and Edwards both taken off of mecha R&D at the end of "From the Stars"?)

While they UEDF might be focusing on the SDF-1 and Alaska Base, that doesn't mean there isn't other stuff they are involved in. Nor does it mean that a name can't be reused for a ship, project, or location, etc.

Leo/Ed that is my impression from FTS at the end, but that is in 2005/6 IIRC and the RoD occurs in 2011, so there is plenty of time for them to be retasked and reassigned.

You are, of course, aware that only 29.2% of Earth's surface is land, right?

70% of Earth's surface would be enough to devastate all of Earth's landmass twice over with room to spare.

I am, but at the same time it means they could simply have been targeting the oceans for the most part, leaving large swaths of land untouched.

Is that comic still canon?

All the Wildstorm comics (From the Stars, Love & War, Invasion, and Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles, and the alternate stories in the middle 2) are canon.

[Seto Kaiba]

So basically sacrificing ~26-7 decks out of 140 decks at 3m tall each. That still leaves a lot more than the 20 decks example used previously.

Only if you're assuming that these are uniform decks for a perfect-world sort of apartment complex that doesn't need supplies or any kind of large space for people to congregate. All those people need to eat, and exercise, and you need to be able to carry supplies to build a settlement on a planet somewhere too...

Tommy modeled his crowbarred-in colony program on Macross for the most part, so it's likely there's more along the lines of the SDF-1's internalized city there.

The Zentreadi may be functionally extinct by the 2040s, but their contribution would most likely be in the 2010s and 2020s in terms of offspring appearing, and those off-spring may not be regarded as Zentreadi.

Unlikely, considering how the examples of hybrids are treated as 1. rare to the extent of being practically unheard-of and 2. with Tommy's presentation of all full-blood Zentradi as being colossal and light blue, they'd tend to stick out a bit... not exactly the sort who'd blend in and be counted as human.

I'm not sure if I would describe it as "many UEEF troops" as an indication of the organization as a whole given the sample count. And a good percentage of those w/anti-alien views seem more focused on the Invid than in general.

In both Prelude and RTSC, they're pretty generic in their hatred and mistrust of "aliens", rather than any one particular alien species.

That, remember, is what set of Maia's awkward-as-hell line about being "half-alien".

I agree about the rarity in 30years, but if we are looking for ways for them to boost the population there aren't very many options.

Sometimes, what's in sequels is just in error... per HG's policy, naturally.

True, but at the same time if people are surviving long enough to get to the secondary effects, there is a chance they could survive even longer. For those outside of those areas all together they really wouldn't be survivors.

But we've got someone looking back on it with the benefit of being Earth's de facto ruler and supreme military commander, armed with 17 years of hindsight and all the records of humanity's rebuilding of Earth... and he doesn't up the tally. That points (unfortunately) to there being no additional survivors.

The GC was 5miles in RT.

Infopedia says "over 6 miles". Have we found another information conflict?

It was 6km in the original Macross.

[ShadowLogan]

Only if you're assuming that these are uniform decks for a perfect-world sort of apartment complex that doesn't need supplies or any kind of large space for people to congregate. All those people need to eat, and exercise, and you need to be able to carry supplies to build a settlement on a planet somewhere too...

The decks do not need to be uniform. However, Manilia or some other high pop/density city do take into consideration things like congregation, so if the average pop/density on the AA-class can be brought w/n their range, there should be no issues with congregating and such.

Most materials put into storage probably won't care either if the ceiling height is 3m or 40m in the part of the ship they are in. Though life support consumables are going to be a major factor for 750k people per day that the wandering approch just is unfeasible for a long term approach, while food/water can be recycled to some extent the food requirement alone will be massive.

It is possible though that 750k is the max capacity, but isn't intended to be used regularly in this fashion. We see this on the SDF-3, SDF-4, and Tok.-class as they all are supposed to have excess capacity each of over 100k. The capacity like that on the AA-class, and others may suggest the ships are being designed with mass evacuations in mind, or other roles where high volume transportation of people is required.

Unlikely, considering how the examples of hybrids are treated as 1. rare to the extent of being practically unheard-of and 2. with Tommy's presentation of all full-blood Zentradi as being colossal and light blue, they'd tend to stick out a bit... not exactly the sort who'd blend in and be counted as human.

pt 1. Yes they are rare, at least to the extent they identify themselves. Aside from a few select cases, family history isn't really considered or talked about much.

pt 2. Those are all male Zentreadi though, what about the female Zentreadi depictions? (IIRC Azonia and Miryia have normal skin tones in the new comics that I've seen). And at least per the Series we know Zent. come in different skin tones so it is possible they are present TY not withstanding.

n both Prelude and RTSC, they're pretty generic in their hatred and mistrust of "aliens", rather than any one particular alien species.

I think though that it is limited in the general, but there are cases of more extreme.

But we've got someone looking back on it with the benefit of being Earth's de facto ruler and supreme military commander, armed with 17 years of hindsight and all the records of humanity's rebuilding of Earth... and he doesn't up the tally. That points (unfortunately) to there being no additional survivors.

But at the same time Leonard really isn't giving a history lesson either, its a tailored speech. We know this because the Zentreadi contribution to rebuilding the Earth has been skipped over. He is also addressing a specific group(s) of people.

Infopedia says "over 6 miles". Have we found another information conflict?

No idea. I might be in error or thinking of something else, I just checked ep15, Gloval does say at one point on the tram that it "goes down another 6miles". Though if that holds up to other instances in dialogue (assuming they are there of course) I don't know off hand.

[Jefffar]

But is he ever officially listed on the SDF-1 at the time?

There is quite literally nowhere else he could be, in canon Robotech... as we know he was not assigned to the Grand Cannon in Alaska.

Currently the only location given for him in a Harmony Gold approved source that I am aware of places him in Antarctica at the time of the attack.

The same Harmony Gold approved source indicates there were other survivors in Antarctica and South America.

Um... you do realize that's a completely meaningless statement, yes?

At no point has Harmony Gold ever considered the Palladium Books RPG to be a valid or canon source for Robotech's official continuity. That the book was "approved" by Harmony Gold means nothing more or less than that they glanced over its contents once to ensure that it didn't contain any rampant, setting-breaking silliness like Lancer's Rockers or giant Alphas, and that its quality was sufficient for them to feel they wouldn't regret allowing its release later the way they did with 1E.

So wait, through most of this thread we've been hearing that things aren't going to happen because Harmony Gold is going to be super strict with their approvals. Now, suddenly, their approval process is just going to be a glance over? Which is it?

Based on the fact that some of the RPG books took months to get HG approval, I have to believe that they are being deliberate about what they do and don't approve. So including survivors of the Rain of Death that were neither aboard the SDF-1 or at Alaska Base, plus multiple nations of humans around the world in the 2020s shows that HG intends there to be a reasonably large number of humans around and lots of opportunities for expanding off screen.

That is a very meaningful statement for the RPG and potential sourcebooks.

So basically sacrificing ~26-7 decks out of 140 decks at 3m tall each. That still leaves a lot more than the 20 decks example used previously.

Only if you're assuming that these are uniform decks for a perfect-world sort of apartment complex that doesn't need supplies or any kind of large space for people to congregate. All those people need to eat, and exercise, and you need to be able to carry supplies to build a settlement on a planet somewhere too...

Tommy modeled his crowbarred-in colony program on Macross for the most part, so it's likely there's more along the lines of the SDF-1's internalized city there.

Is there any Harmony Gold approved, final production depictions of the interior of these ships that support that position or is that just a guess?

[Arnie100]

After Marine Sourcebook One gets published (heh), there's supposed to be a Sourcebook Two and The Zentraedi Protectorate (Possibly the Malcontent Uprisings).

[gaby]

Maybe a book about The Colonies,that were set up.

[taalismn]

After Marine Sourcebook One gets published (heh), there's supposed to be a Sourcebook Two and The Zentraedi Protectorate (Possibly the Malcontent Uprisings).

I WANT -SHIPS-, DAMNIT!
After mecha, Robotech is all about neat spacecraft! Entire FLEETS of ships!

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe a book about The Colonies,that were set up.

If they exist (and it is very much an "if"), we'll probably see them in the promised Marines book(s)... since those sound like they're a broad strokes retread of the decanonized Sentinels arc.

I WANT -SHIPS-, DAMNIT!
After mecha, Robotech is all about neat spacecraft! Entire FLEETS of ships!

It'd be nice.

[taalismn]

[
It'd be nice.

"Nice" is an understatement, Seto. It's ESSENTIAL. Having the Zentraedi armada to choose from as my playthings game props, that's essential.
Having a choice of more than either a hopped-up STS orbit bouncer or a command unit when it comes to Southern Cross spacecraft, that's essential.
Finally seeing the Tirolian auxiliaries, like the Destroyer, given their just due in official RPG format, that's essential.
Having the stats for the SDF-3 and Ark Angel, that would be NICE.

[glitterboy2098]

and given that colonies are specifically mentioned both in canon robotech materials, and the RPG, there is no "if" to their existence.

[Lt Gargoyle]

Currently the only location given for him in a Harmony Gold approved source that I am aware of places him in Antarctica at the time of the attack.

The same Harmony Gold approved source indicates there were other survivors in Antarctica and South America.

Um... you do realize that's a completely meaningless statement, yes?

At no point has Harmony Gold ever considered the Palladium Books RPG to be a valid or canon source for Robotech's official continuity. That the book was "approved" by Harmony Gold means nothing more or less than that they glanced over its contents once to ensure that it didn't contain any rampant, setting-breaking silliness like Lancer's Rockers or giant Alphas, and that its quality was sufficient for them to feel they wouldn't regret allowing its release later the way they did with 1E.

And yet here is the very point of Role play. We can have the approved material for our role playing fun which does not have to be limited to the canon material which is very limited.

[Seto Kaiba]

"Nice" is an understatement, Seto. It's ESSENTIAL. Having the Zentraedi armada to choose from as my playthings game props, that's essential.

Palladium's spaceship-combat rules have always been kind of shaky at best... unless they did a radical rethink and rewrite of ALL of the ship stats (including those already printed), ship-to-ship combat will be a clunky and enormously one-sided affair. Human ships have been getting NERF'd pretty badly in Palladium's Robotech and Macross II lines since RT1E. It doesn't help that there really aren't any mecha-scale anti-ship weapons in any saga other than the Macross Saga, and the Macross Saga RPG NERF'd those pretty hard too. Ships are, for most purposes, basically scenery.

Having a choice of more than either a hopped-up STS orbit bouncer or a command unit when it comes to Southern Cross spacecraft, that's essential.

I wouldn't hold out hope there... the human-made ships of the Robotech Masters Saga only come in two flavors, and the RPG seems to support that contention by identifying the off-model drawings from the series as Tristar-class variants rather than alternate classes of ship in their own right.

Having the stats for the SDF-3 and Ark Angel, that would be NICE.

I'd imagine Harmony Gold is unwilling to let the Ark Angel stats go... because, like the Super Shadow Fighter, that one's still a design from a "forthcoming" animated feature.

and given that colonies are specifically mentioned both in canon robotech materials, and the RPG, there is no "if" to their existence.

"Colonies" (read: "explicitly military bases") in the Sol system are specifically mentioned in canon Robotech material.

No extrasolar colonies have ever been visited, mentioned, or alluded to in canon Robotech material.

And yet here is the very point of Role play. We can have the approved material for our role playing fun which does not have to be limited to the canon material which is very limited.

Very true, though we know Harmony Gold is at least mildly determined to keep anything setting-breaking out of the RPG to avoid a repeat of RT1E... which is cause to suspect that there ARE things that would not be permitted to be done in a new sourcebook.

[eliakon]

and given that colonies are specifically mentioned both in canon robotech materials, and the RPG, there is no "if" to their existence.

"Colonies" (read: "explicitly military bases") in the Sol system are specifically mentioned in canon Robotech material.

No extrasolar colonies have ever been visited, mentioned, or alluded to in canon Robotech material.

That is your opinion/interpretation of the facts yes. However other people, with the same facts, feel that they do support the mention of outer-solar colonies.
Therefore with out a definitive statement that they do NOT exist, you are in the logically impossible position of trying to prove a negative. Which simply can not be done.
And no the claim 'that my interpretation of the facts given means that there is a lack of evidence' is not a logical argument. This is because other people have provided detailed explanations of why they think that the same sources prove that there are colonies. This means that those sources meanings are not settled, and if they are up for discussion/interpretation then one can not simply claim that one version of the interpretation is correct.

However I think that an argument about the details of the pros and cons of if their are or are not extra-solar colonies would be a good subject for its own thread and not something to further derail this thread on. Especially since, as the Genesis Pits book proves HG is willing to allow things to go into the source books that are not explicitly mentioned in the show. Which means that barring an actual statement from HG that there are in fact no such colonies, speculation about a game book for said hypothetical colonies is a legitimate topic of discussion for the RPG forum.

[Seto Kaiba]

That is your opinion/interpretation of the facts yes. However other people, with the same facts, feel that they do support the mention of outer-solar colonies.

To be precise, my position is not an interpretation... it is a statement of fact.

To date, no extrasolar colonies have been visited, mentioned, or alluded to in official Robotech material.

Quite frankly, while it is true that the Genesis Pits book did include material beyond the show... there was no mention of colonization despite a significant portion of the book being about space exploration. That's a pretty strong indicator that colonies are unlikely to be showing up in the RPG.

[SRoss]

The answer is obvious, whoever of us goes to a con where there is a person from HG authorized to speak on matters of cannon, will have to ask about colonies and record the answer for the rest of us.

Til then I think we need to remember that this thread is about what we WANT to see and what we get is going to be strictly between Kevin and whomever it is at HG who makes those decisions.

That being said, if they see that there is enough interest in something, it may influence that decision.

[taalismn]

"So enough with the negative vibes, man."

[Seto Kaiba]

The answer is obvious, whoever of us goes to a con where there is a person from HG authorized to speak on matters of cannon, will have to ask about colonies and record the answer for the rest of us.

You ever tried to go to a con and get a straight answer out of Tommy Yune? A viable option that ain't.

Til then I think we need to remember that this thread is about what we WANT to see and what we get is going to be strictly between Kevin and whomever it is at HG who makes those decisions.

Well, strictly speaking it's actually "suggestions for new sourcebooks", which means we should temper our wishful thinking with a bit of realism... suggesting something that won't be done because it breaks the official setting or contradicts material already in print is not constructive.

"So enough with the negative vibes, man."

What could be more positive than saying "If you're going to get it, it's probably going to be in the very next book"?

[eliakon]

That is your opinion/interpretation of the facts yes. However other people, with the same facts, feel that they do support the mention of outer-solar colonies.

To be precise, my position is not an interpretation... it is a statement of fact.

Except its not because...

To date, no extrasolar colonies have been visited, mentioned, or alluded to in official Robotech material.

There is material in the material that others view as 'alluded to' and otherwise supporting the statements that their are colonies. You disagree with that interpretation of the material which is your right, but your disagreement does not mean that your interpretation is the right one, just that it is one.

Quite frankly, while it is true that the Genesis Pits book did include material beyond the show... there was no mention of colonization despite a significant portion of the book being about space exploration. That's a pretty strong indicator that colonies are unlikely to be showing up in the RPG.

Again that is your interpretation. Some of us look at what was said as saying something completely different. You may not LIKE that view. But you don't have anything to negate the view other than your personal opinion that our interpretation is incorrect.
As neither of us works for HG then it really doesn't matter what our personal headcanon is since neither of us is in a position to affect actual canon.

[Seto Kaiba]

There is material in the material that others view as 'alluded to' and otherwise supporting the statements that their are colonies.

Views which depend principally upon non-literal interpretation of the information or wild guessing rather than what is literally said/shown... as we have previously discussed. It is a non-factual interpretation.

From a strict, factual viewpoint... there have been no appearances by, mentions of, or allusions to colonized worlds outside of those specifically mentioned "militarized" colonies inside the Sol system. Even the RPG has thus far stayed away from mentioning human colonies in other star systems. That could change, but the odds are not good. If it is going to change, that change would very likely occur in the Marines sourcebook(s).

As neither of us works for HG then it really doesn't matter what our personal headcanon is since neither of us is in a position to affect actual canon.

You may be dealing with headcanon, friend, but I don't deal in headcanon or fanon... I stick with official canon whenever possible, as I have done here. Since Palladium Books is supposed to be at least staying in the same ballpark as official canon this time around, it's a logical tool for extrapolating what the possibilities in new books are.

Warning: Violation of forum rules for trolling/flaming/harassment - please keep your discussions solely on the content of the post instead of talking about the poster.

[glitterboy2098]

and yet, your "official canon" usually goes against HG's actual official canon, and you maintain that your stance on canon is more valid that the material HG has put out.

sounds like headcanon/fanon to me..

further, even if you were using official canon, instead of your own take on it, you insist on pushing that interpretation onto everyone else.. even though your take does not match the RPG's (which is what this forum is here to discuss) and the many other interpretations discussed here.

Warning: Violation of forum rules for trolling/flaming/harassment - please keep your discussions solely on the content of the post instead of talking about the poster.

[Seto Kaiba]

and yet, your "official canon" usually goes against HG's actual official canon, and you maintain that your stance on canon is more valid that the material HG has put out.

That's certainly an odd thing to say... as I'm usually the ONLY person who speaks in defense of Harmony Gold's official canon for Robotech, particularly when it comes to their decision(s) to use OSM information.

even though your take does not match the RPG's (which is what this forum is here to discuss) and the many other interpretations discussed here.

My "take" (the official canon) does match the RPG's here... the only colonies it mentions are the militarized ones in the Sol system, such as Moon Base ALuCE and Mars Base, and it takes the attitude of military service being the only career path for those born in space. The Genesis Pits book likewise has nothing on extrasolar colonies, despite having an entire section devoted to people whose sole job it is to explore alien worlds for the UEEF. You'd think assessing a world's suitability for colonization would be a pretty big item on their To-Do list if it were a thing, but it's not even mentioned.

Since the Marines book (or books) looks to be a retread of Sentinels, if they're going to depict the UEEF as having made the colonization of other worlds a priority, that'd be the place to do it... though previous books have only mentioned the UEEF as if its sole mission were the trip to Tirol.

[Lt Gargoyle]

And yet here is the very point of Role play. We can have the approved material for our role playing fun which does not have to be limited to the canon material which is very limited.

Very true, though we know Harmony Gold is at least mildly determined to keep anything setting-breaking out of the RPG to avoid a repeat of RT1E... which is cause to suspect that there ARE things that would not be permitted to be done in a new sourcebook.

I would like to point out the Genesis Pits book world overview basically reprinted the first edition stuff. Right down to basically saying the Return of the Master book is still a viable useable book.

[ShadowLogan]

As far as suggestions for new sourcebooks go:
Given that the "Marines" are getting their own book(s), what about giving each of the other branches a book of their own to further flesh them out? And make the book multi-era to, which should help pad them out.

We could have:
Robotech Army Special Forces, covering the SF "squads" the ASC-era UEDF uses, which likely also exist in some form w/n the Zentraedi, Masters, and RDF-era. Now some of these "squads" could probably also get their own books in their own right.

Robotech Sea Squad, Flesh out the UEDF Wet Navy covering the 30year period up until the Invid arrive. Likely looking at different ship types, some rough deck plans, etc. Unless of course one thinks the only wet navy ships that saw service are the 2 PT boats, 1 cutter, and 2 Aircraft carrier-class vessels. It's also possible we could see how the Invid, Masters, Zentreadi, and UEEF at surface locations that are long term approach this area.

Robotech Civil Defense. The UEDF can be covered in both eras, and we can look at how the Masters and UEEF also handle civil defense.

Robotech Cosmic Units. This could be more varied than the Space Ships book(s) in terms of what gets covered, or even be part of it.

Robotech Epsionage: Flesh out the GMP and other intelligence services.

Robotech Air Corps. Flesh out/diversify the inventories of the various Air Forces. Ex the Masters are said to have aircraft in the book, and I'm sure there are gaps to be filled in with variants or new designs w/respect to other factions.

[Jefffar]

Locked for review when I get home from Japan.

[Jefffar]

Back and some warnings delivered.

As a reminder folks, keep your discussion on the content of the others posts rather than about them.

I'm going to ask that discussion of the possibilities of colonies in Robotech be taken to it's own topic and people document their sources properly if they are going to claim something is official canon.

[Lt Gargoyle]

As far as suggestions for new sourcebooks go:
Given that the "Marines" are getting their own book(s), what about giving each of the other branches a book of their own to further flesh them out? And make the book multi-era to, which should help pad them out.

We could have:
Robotech Army Special Forces, covering the SF "squads" the ASC-era UEDF uses, which likely also exist in some form w/n the Zentraedi, Masters, and RDF-era. Now some of these "squads" could probably also get their own books in their own right.

Robotech Sea Squad, Flesh out the UEDF Wet Navy covering the 30year period up until the Invid arrive. Likely looking at different ship types, some rough deck plans, etc. Unless of course one thinks the only wet navy ships that saw service are the 2 PT boats, 1 cutter, and 2 Aircraft carrier-class vessels. It's also possible we could see how the Invid, Masters, Zentreadi, and UEEF at surface locations that are long term approach this area.

Robotech Civil Defense. The UEDF can be covered in both eras, and we can look at how the Masters and UEEF also handle civil defense.

Robotech Cosmic Units. This could be more varied than the Space Ships book(s) in terms of what gets covered, or even be part of it.

Robotech Epsionage: Flesh out the GMP and other intelligence services.

Robotech Air Corps. Flesh out/diversify the inventories of the various Air Forces. Ex the Masters are said to have aircraft in the book, and I'm sure there are gaps to be filled in with variants or new designs w/respect to other factions.

I dont think these each need their own books, but it would be a good Masters Source book to have. Which i think is a short coming of the Robotech Game.