Just finished reading the latest KS update(s)

[McPherson]

Hi all,

I just finished reading Kevs 2 part update on Kickstarter - not going to go into what I thought of it as I'm sure there are going to be plenty of internet arguments abrewing about it and I don't want to start one here.

However I do want to ask a question to NMI or anyone in the know.

Multiple times (especially in Part 2) Kev mentioned wanting to hear from the backers regarding our opinions on things, specifically the change of scale and releasing the Invid next. I'd love to be able to put forth my opinion but I've been told repeatedly that they don't check here or the KS comments so where do I go to post my opinions and ask questions to help me make an educated choice?

Obviously posting any direct contact link will open up a whole floodgate of people complaining so I appreciate if that doesn't happen (unless they want to PM me contact details? I don't know)

Thanks in advance.

- End of Line -

**Edited to Add**
Some of the things I would like to question is if Kev has pictures of the 6mm/15mm comparisons he was discussing in regards to the scale change and if the scale changes how PB are planning to keep things compatible between the per-exsisting Macross era stuff and the later era stuff. Thanks again.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly i'm curious about that as well.. as an avid gamer i nthe scale RTT is in, i have some examples and suggestions drawn from other games that could help PB address their scale issue while keeping the game's different era's compatible with each other. but i know that if i post it to the kickstarter i'm just going to be lost in the sea of trolls who are already posting there.

i'd Email them but the only email i know is Wayne's. and i can never tell if any given message gets read. (and i don't want to call PB's offices, because if i say "hey i want to talk about robotech tactics" they'll probably figure i'm one of the trolls calling to yell at the company. )

honestly, the scale issue is one i'd hoped to discuss with kevin at the open House, but i wasn't able to go due to budget.


as an aside.. the GHQ news is great, and i think the choices for the vehicles are good ones. i'd have preferred T-72's to T-55's for personal reasons (i have a non-UEG nation created for my RPG games that uses T-72's) but T-55's are common as dirt and thus make good malcontent forces.

[BlackStar08]

With regards to "size matter", 15mm for Southern Cross and New Generation/Shadow Chronicles would be great! I would completely support this. Different scales does not bother me as it is unlikely that I would game with minis from different eras.
Thank you PB for giving the backers the opportunity to purchase the GenCon exclusive minis. The new convention exclusives are also appealing. Good call with going with GHQ. They’re a top notch company and their minis are exceptional! Looking forward to seeing them. Especially if they make the Comanchero and Cat's Eye Recon!
Lastly, disregard all the vulgar and infantile haters on the Kickstarter comments page as their posts do not follow the ‘be respectful and considerate’ rule. Their rants are tiresome and do NOT contribute to any discussions.

[glitterboy2098]

i disagree with a 15mm switch.. being over twice the scale of the macross stuff, it makes macross and southern cross/new gen era's incompatible.
and to be honest, at 15mm the bigger mecha (ASC battloids, bioroids, Alpha's, the Beta, the Royal battloid for the invid, etc) become huge. i mean, a Beta is as tall as a VF-1 is in universe. take it up to 15mm scale and your looking at a figure that almost rivals RTT's MAC-II

the only issue really is the smaller units like cyclones, invid scouts and troopers, the Logan, etc.

my suggestion would be to emulate what Battletech did when faced with the same scale issue.. they made the smaller sized units (and only the smaller sized units) a bigger scale. but not by much. instead of 6mm scale for the infantry and battle armor (said BA being mostly about the size of a Cyclone to Logan), they used something closer to 9mm scale. it let them put plenty of sculpted detail on the figures and made them easier to paint.. but they still look good next to the 6mm scale mecha, as well as against 6mm scale infantry (which many battletech players had from when the mini's were produced by a different company)
it may not be hyperaccurate, but it's a solution that allows for all three era's to be compatible (which is great because that allows cross-era games, like early ASC vs malcontents, or late ASC vs invid, even invid era games with mixed forces, etc.)

[McPherson]

Lastly, disregard all the vulgar and infantile haters on the Kickstarter comments page as their posts do not follow the ‘be respectful and considerate’ rule. Their rants are tiresome and do NOT contribute to any discussions.

Just a small comment BlackStar but even if they are going about it a poor way you shouldn't disregard people who are unhappy with a product they have paid for. Their rants may be tiresome but they do contribute to the discussion as any company needs to be held accountable for their conduct and products by the people who are purchasing them. To disregard those customers you have made unhappy as 'haters' leads to you forming a unrealistic view of the situation, if I'm honest I've ranted on the KS comments on occasion as I have felt at times that the service being provided by PB was not up to par and I know from my experience reading people then posting "oh disregard him, he's just a hater" or words to that effect made the situation worse.

That all done with lets get back to trying to move forward with RRT and seeing if we can get our voices heard like Kevin wants.

- End of Line -

[Kryptt]

I'd hate for PB to change scale. If next gen gets made I'd rather it stay at 6mm. The way LoS rules are written cyclones have an advantage by being so small. If there done by ghq they'll come out fine. Later on PB should come out with a next gen game in 28mm. Kinda like necromunda.

[rosco60559]

Yea that thing all ready posted on that. As for the scale change, going from 6 to 15 isn't a good thing. Maybe go to 10mm as a compromise. Then the macross stuff won't be 100% useless with the other series along with the terrain everyone has been working on.

[McPherson]

I agree Kryptt that i'd like Palladium to stay with or stick near to their current scale, to be honest I am not a purist like some others in my minds eye a Alpha was always around the same size as a Valkyrie from when I watched the series as a child so if they played with the scales a bit (10mm for New gen wouldn't be too far off maybe?) I wouldn't bat an eye as long as cross compatibility remains.

Even from a pure Roleplaying PoV I'd like the minis to stay in a similar scale for my campaigns I've ran in New Gen and Shadow Chronicles as it allows party members to find the occasional old warhorse like a VF1.

And yes a 28mm skirmish game along Necromunda's lines would be great for New Gen, would also give a nice resource of 28mm character figures for roleplaying groups when they're focusing on smaller engagements.

- End of Line -

**Edited to add**
Just been reminded while looking through the KS comments about another factor when changing the scale, I have spent almost as much money on 6mm compatible terrain for RRT as on the game itself, if PB change the scale to 15mm it's going to render all that time and money wasted as well. Dunno how 10mm would look next to 6mm buildings but I do know how 15mm looks as I have some 15mm infantry at hand, it just doesn't work.

[wilycoyote]

My view is that it would be quite possible to stay in scale if that is what PB want to do, but as a small scale gamer the use of 6mm (or smaller) has always been to get impressive looking units rathe rthan indiividual models onto a table.

The real issue is that from here I suspect we are going down the "pewter" route and if GHQ are involved 6mm to be effective is going to be cosltly

In the case of the later eras, I believe unit density in far less so I would suggest that we could potentially see ashify to a larger scale and a more detailed set of "skirmish rules"

Problem as I see it, is that all this talk of later eras is taking away from the real problem , Wave 2 needs to be out there as soon as possible. I would also suggets that given that PB now have the database just to target backers, get that PDF out PDQ and keep pushing out FAQ;s and optiional rules so we can get a better version of the rules in place by the end of the year. Make them a free PDF as well as a printed book - printable standees for all mecha (rue size) would also be a great step forward.

A PnP starter set of rules, charts and standees via RPGNow, perhaps?

[NMI]

I recommend PM'ing Alex and Wayne Smith.
You can also send an email to I believe: kickstarter@palladiumbooks.com
Calling the office is an option, but keep in mind that the guys are obviously busy and might not have a lot of time for a phone conversation.

[McPherson]

Thanks for that NMI, I'll hold off on PM'ing people yet and the email addy is probably full of other emails which may be more important.

For the time being if we keep the discussion here and then we can just PM Alex and Wayne a link to the thread and they can see what is being discussed and digest what they want from it.

I have just spent the best part of an hour going through the KS comments both for the update specifically and the general comments and what I am seeing is that there are three camps.

Camp A are those who want the game to stay in 6mm whether because of PB's original promises or because of scale purity, I would say about 20%-30% of all people who are commenting fall into this camp.
Camp B are those (like me) who would prefer the scale to stay the same or at most shift up to 10mm for some of the models, seems like more people are leaning this way probably around 30%-40%.
Camp C are those who are for the change to 15mm, about 20%-30% are behind this.

Obviously there is a fair amount of fuzzy math in my numbers I wasn't doing a proper poll of peoples opinions, but things seem relatively even on the split at the moment, more information would definitely not go amiss.

- End of Line -

[Spinachcat]

I played Warmaster (Warhammer's 6mm fantasy) actively about 10 years ago (Undead!) and I played Epic (40k 6mm fantasy) many years ago (Space Marines and Eldar) and I think 6mm for RTT in the Invid Invasion is a very bad idea. Instead, if RTT continues, each Era should be its own game.

Also, as some backers have posted, much of the attention for RTT are the use of the models for Battletech games, which oddly still have a huge following decades later for models which were discontinued ages ago. I say "oddly" as a former Battletech fan who can't imagine using such a clunky ruleset in 2015 (also see Star Fleet Battles which I adored in the pre-digital age)

My opinion might not be popular among backers, but I think RTT should be completed with Wave 2, set aside and chocked up to a learning experience for PB unless there is a groundswell of interest beyond the backers, aka strong sales in game stores. Maybe I am totally wrong, but RTT is smelling like a clusterpoop in the marketplace. I have not seen a box in any of the three main FLGS I have visited in the past 6 months in Los Angeles.

Instead, PB should launch a Rifts skirmish game using single piece minis like Reaper Bones or Reaper CAV, possibly even consider pre-paints such as HeroClix or D&D Minis so gamers can pop open the box and begin play.

Also, PB owns Rifts so all the time dealing with Harmony Gold could instead be focused on the Rifts line.

Possibly better yet, PB should team up with Reaper to do the Rifts minis.

[Everyman]

Personally, I think that going to 15mm scale will be the kiss of death for a game that is already struggling to find its place in the market. I would prefer to see the scale remain at 6mm but I would still probably support the game if the other eras went to 10mm. If it goes to 15mm I can safely say that myself and probably the gaming community in this immediate area will wind up dropping the game since only two factions is not a long term viability for sustained play. A miniature game in today's marketplace, especially one that will have a competitive tournament component, needs to have numerous different factions (Malcontents does not really count as a separate faction to most folks that I have spoken to) which will not be possible if there is that different of a scale between the eras. Of course the issue of terrain as well will be enough to drive away numerous supporters as well since most folks have or are in the process of putting together 6mm terrain. While 10mm figures look ok next to such terrain, 15mm does not. I think a decent middle ground might be to just do the smaller units such as cyclones, inorganics, etc. in a slightly larger scale such as 10mm and keep the larger mecha at 6mm.

[Axoid]

my suggestion would be to emulate what Battletech did when faced with the same scale issue.. they made the smaller sized units (and only the smaller sized units) a bigger scale. but not by much. instead of 6mm scale for the infantry and battle armor (said BA being mostly about the size of a Cyclone to Logan), they used something closer to 9mm scale. it let them put plenty of sculpted detail on the figures and made them easier to paint.. but they still look good next to the 6mm scale mecha, as well as against 6mm scale infantry (which many battletech players had from when the mini's were produced by a different company)
it may not be hyperaccurate, but it's a solution that allows for all three era's to be compatible (which is great because that allows cross-era games, like early ASC vs malcontents, or late ASC vs invid, even invid era games with mixed forces, etc.)

That's a great idea. Similarly, look at the Wizkids Mechwarrior line. They released tons of infantry clik stuff, and those (when taken off the big clik base and rebased) look decent compared to BT nad Robotech stuff. And there is enough detail to get a decent paint job and distinguish one model from another. I'll snap some pictures later and post a link.

No need to go full 15mm, something adjusted up slightly would be a nice compromise.

[glitterboy2098]

very true.. but also MWDA illustrates what i mean about why rescaling everything is a bad idea.

the wizkids mechwarrior dark age stuff was a much different scale than regular battletech.. close to 12mm.

a few visual examples: an official scale compare
http://www.heavymetalpro.com/ScaleMechs.htm
the spacific picture: http://www.heavymetalpro.com/image/AtlasScale.gif
and a Battletech mini compared to a fan made MWDA version: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/ ... eb311e.jpg
15mm scale is about 1/100 scale, which would basically be half again that size.
and considering that the mechs in these pics are about the same in universe size as a destroid or veritech you can imagine how huge an Alpha or Beta would be in 15mm.

for comparison, some RTT vs battletech scale pics, illustrasting the "same size" point:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/ ... fa6728.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/ ... 45d995.jpg


and here is an example of GHQ sized infantry vs a mech (one that would be alpha sized at 6mm)
http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj4 ... 6d525a.jpg
(not actually GHQ mini's though.. GHQ tends to get a bit more distinct detail on their sculpts)

what Battletech did when revising many of its infantry and battlearmor miniatures a few years back (the old molds from ral partha had worn out so they had to commission new ones) was increase the scale of the pewter figures ot be closer to MWDA scale..
here is an old ral partha elemental group alongside a mech: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/ ... buerjg.jpg
here is a MWDA BA group at the larger scale along side some mechs of of similar size: http://www.solaris7.com/files/members/6 ... lpha_1.jpg
and one of the new IWM metal elementals alongside mechs: http://www.camospecs.com/images/schemes ... roup1t.jpg
(note the blood asp in the foreground is not very popular with battletech players because IWM sculpted it a bit too large for it's in game mass.. it's supposed to be closer to that timberwolf in the background. IWM was trying to compensate for a too-small figure when replacing the ral partha sculpt, and overcompensated)

i have examples of both the old ral partha "true scale" elementals and the new IWM versions here at home, i just need to scrounge up a decent camera. i picked elementals as an example for two reasons.. first, size wise they're pretty close to cyclones with in universe size. 8-9 feet tall, discounting the bulky rocket launcher pack. 2nd, because they are one of the most common battlearmor's in the battletech setting, so finding pics is easy.

[zyanitevp]

I am trying to compile all the feedback on scale. Please go to Tom's RRT page and fill out the poll on there. I am going to try to get a poll onto the KS page.

[glitterboy2098]

you mind including a link to the poll?

[Scott Gibbons]

My opinion might not be popular among backers, but I think RTT should be completed with Wave 2, set aside and chocked up to a learning experience for PB unless there is a groundswell of interest beyond the backers, aka strong sales in game stores. Maybe I am totally wrong, but RTT is smelling like a clusterpoop in the marketplace. I have not seen a box in any of the three main FLGS I have visited in the past 6 months in Los Angeles.

I think your local area may be skewing your view - I lived in Southern California for many years (and visited Northern Cali many times) and watched as all things PB seemed to dry up and die out throughout the state. Then I moved to Texas, and every game store I walked into had a least a smattering of PB stuff, and several had good representation. Fast forward a few years to the present, and every game store I've been to in the Austin area is carrying RRT and reporting strong sales of it when I ask (and I've asked at each shop I've seen it in).

I don't know which area, California or Texas, is more representative of reality regarding how well RRT is selling in general, but Kevin has mentioned several times that the game is selling well, so bringing the game to and end seems to be premature.

Just my two cents.

[Vang]

Here's a possible solution to the scale problem. Most RTT battles that cross the eras will involve a smattering of Macross era units in Southern Cross/Invid Invasion eras. So how about make some of the Macross era units in 15mm scale? That would allow for some truly epic looking Macross models that could also double as museum quality pieces if one were to put the extra work into them.

Granted, there will be some problems, like say if someone wants to do a large combat with battlepods vs Invid Gurab - that's going to be a lot of expensive mecha models to acquire. And I'm sure there will be SOMEONE who wants a MAC II at 15mm scale.

Now, for those people who want to do the battles between the Invid and the Zentradi, it should be no problem to create 6mm models for them. There won't be that many tiny models, with the possible exception of Invid Malar.

[Forar]

Well, ask yourselves this; if RRT was on fire and breaking sales records, don't you think PB would be crowing that from the rooftops?

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing bad with solid sales and making a modest/reasonable profit.

But let's not kid ourselves, if this thing were blowing up and they were ordering more boxes by the container full, we wouldn't hear the end of it in the newsletters.

Vang: the rumour is that they can't. Something about being restricted to 'game pieces 3 inches tall and smaller'. If true, a couple figures may be toeing that line, but we wouldn't be seeing 5 inch tall Destroids or anything along those lines.

[Spinachcat]

I don't know which area, California or Texas, is more representative of reality regarding how well RRT is selling in general, but Kevin has mentioned several times that the game is selling well, so bringing the game to and end seems to be premature.

I fully agree with you AND I am thrilled to hear PB is doing great in Austin!

Of course, only PB knows how the game is selling overall. I agree with Forar the lack of discussion about sales is concerning.

I am always vocal about distrusting online fandom because the lack of relationship between online fandom and offline sales for all products (entertainment, food, cars, beer, etc) has been well documented for years, so I am not going to view the lack of online fervor for RTT or the backer fury as representative of what's really happening in offline sales.

My only statement is that IF the sales are lacking, my suggestion to PB is to do whatever it takes to deliver Wave 2, then cut its losses, accept that mistakes were made and opportunities were lost, then regroup and move on with an major learning experience under its belt.

[Jerell]

I am trying to compile all the feedback on scale. Please go to Tom's RRT page and fill out the poll on there. I am going to try to get a poll onto the KS page.

Where Tom's page located exactly? I'd like to contribute my opinion on this poll.

[IWillNeverGrowUp]

With regards to "size matter", 15mm for Southern Cross and New Generation/Shadow Chronicles would be great! I would completely support this. Different scales does not bother me as it is unlikely that I would game with minis from different eras.

You may not, but others absolutely would. I would, personally, like to field a game of Zentraedi vs Invid and the Robotech Masters (Bioroids) vs. Invid. Having later generations upscaled means the Zentraedi would look ridiculously small on the table. This may not bother some, but for many others it's a game breaker (immersion and visuals mean a lot to many wargamers .. why do you think so many people spend so much time, effort and/or money on their armies and terrain?).

Slightly upscaled smaller units are fine, if they fit in with what we already have. There does not have to be an absolutely strict adherence to published sizes, so long as they look "right".

[Jerell]

I still like bielmic's sliding scale idea best. It just looks playable and paintable, which is what I want. It looks like 15mm is way too big. 10mm would be preferable to 15mm, but still not ideal.

Take a look-

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/20 ... 2_1478.jpg

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/20 ... 1_1478.jpg

[McPherson]

Exactly Bielmics sliding scale works for the idea of making the units 'look' right.

They are not accurate to printed information but as long as they all look right in comparison to each other on the tabletop I think a lot of gamers will forgive PB, after all they forgive GW scale sliding when dealing with their infantry vs their vehicles.

Its not a perfect system but as long as a Valkyrie looks bigger than an Alpha that looks bigger than a Hovertank and so on then the game will work. Yes there are a few slight problems with true LoS in the rules as it makes later era mecha easier to draw LoS to but that can be adjusted by simply giving a slight DF boost to smaller units that are harder to hit? It also makes it slightly easier to write the rules to cover the cross generational problems that arise from the massive power jump from a Valkyrie to Cyclone armour.

- End of Line -

[Forar]

Yeah. What is more important; that the Alpha is smaller than the VT by a noticeable margin, or that the Alpha is *exactly* X/8ths of an inch shorter than a VT, to *exacting* specifications?

Things are exaggerated on figures all the time. Some guy linked a pic with a bunch of 6mm infantry wielding 'halbard' style weapons that would've had hafts a foot thick. Even some of the people calling for perfect scale don't actually seem to want perfect scale, and I think it's possible to upsize (as with the sliding scale) to give better size/visibility/detail without losing that a Cyclone/Invid Scout remain quite small (but not absolutely tiny), Hovertanks/Bioroids still being bigger than them, and VT's/Pods still having a significant height/size advantage, even if they don't literally dwarf everything else.

Flattening the curve a little, as opposed to a flatly applied change.

Approach the matter with a measured scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

[bielmic]

Its not a perfect system but as long as a Valkyrie looks bigger than an Alpha that looks bigger than a Hovertank and so on then the game will work.

Yeah. What is more important; that the Alpha is smaller than the VT by a noticeable margin, or that the Alpha is *exactly* X/8ths of an inch shorter than a VT, to *exacting* specifications?

*snip*

I think it's possible to upsize (as with the sliding scale) to give better size/visibility/detail without losing that a Cyclone/Invid Scout remain quite small (but not absolutely tiny), Hovertanks/Bioroids still being bigger than them, and VT's/Pods still having a significant height/size advantage, even if they don't literally dwarf everything else.

Flattening the curve a little, as opposed to a flatly applied change.

Approach the matter with a measured scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

That is also a good rule to live by in the baking world as well (unless you're Gallager!). I can be a big verbose at times but that is the intended effect I'm going after. Star Wars Armada does something similar in that the Imperial Star Destroyer is bigger than the Victory Star Destroyer which is bigger than the Rebel Frigate which is bigger than the Corellian Corvette. Each size difference is visible at a cursory glance but the individual size differences are not exactly the same as in the fluff. Will it bother some folks that the ISD is not exactly 10.66x the length of the corvette and is instead only roughly 4x? Sure.. but if you made the corvette 10.66x smaller than the ISD it wouldn't be much bigger than the tiny fighters in the game and just looks ridiculous as a small capital ship. Even most star wars gamers don't know that the ISD is 1.6km long and the corvette is 150m in any case... they just know that the former is much bigger from the opening scene of Episode IV. That is the effect that Palladium should be trying to maintain with any possible scale change IMO. If you want to look at how NOT to do it, look at the WOTC Star Wars starship game as they completely ignored that relative size relationship and had fighters bigger than cruisers and small cruisers bigger than star destroyers... and lots of folks hated it. It's the difference between staying true to the scale and being a slave to it.

Glitterboy does bring up a good point in that size doesn't matter for Armada with LOS but my example was more to illustrate how a popular scifi IP with widely variant models is putting them together on the same table successfully. Also, LOS here isn't much affected by a difference of only a couple millimeters per fig with the sliding scale; it is however massively affected by Palladium's proposed 15mm jump since that is 250% bigger than it is currently.

[LtPebbles]

Approach the matter with a measured scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

Really, really good point.

The smallest units, like the Cyclone and Invids could use a little pumping up, but trying to get 6mm to work along side 15mm would look a little odd.

Now, if PB did a separate game at 15mm -- that's okay. But that is years down the road and I hope they are focusing on Wave 2 and finishing this kickstarter up first.