Vampires retain magic knowledge differently cross dimensions

[Tor]

Was comparing books in different games where vampires are statted out and noticed some differences. Was thinking we could just use whatever is the latest book OR perhaps consider that when vampires are made in different dimensions, they have very slight differences that add interesting uniqueness to them.

PRPG: Vampires can clearly know magic, and even learn it after the change.

Page 179 mentions many pursue the mystic arts.
Page 180 mentions they retain the abilities/knowledge/skills from when alive and can 'continue to develop' them.
On page 257 there's one who is "still an active researcher" in Summoning. His high experience levels strongly suggest he continued to level up as a summoner/wizard while a vampire.

Vampire Kingdoms (original):

on page 14/15 hides the notes about magic under "Combat" for some reason (looking back I thought they were never there for a bit...).
Both the Master and Secondary are forbidden from learning new magic or increasing their PPE or experience level (frozen). The Master retains all spells, the Secondary retains half of them, forgets the other half.
Wild Vampires forget all their magic, but unlike the M/S they are not explicitly forbidden from learning new magic.
Nor are they forbidden from increasing their PPE.
Their low IQ would make it unlikely that they would fulfill the attribute requirements for many magical OCCs though.

Nightbane (prob same with Nightspawn)

pages 180/182/183 helpfully cleans out the 'Combat' section and creates a new 'Magic Powers' section for the magical notes.
Master/Secondary remain mostly the same, except only the Master is forbidden from increasing their PPE.
The Secondary is not restricted from increasing their PPE as they were in Vampire Kingdoms.
A slight but significant change was made to the Wild vampire:
Instead of 'forgetting all magic' they now only forget 'spells'.
Possibly indicating that they could retain non-spell magical abilities.
"Magic Powers: None" is added but could be viewed simply to describe the lack of default natural magic abilities, not an inability to work magic.
For comparison: "None" is also listed on 189 for Wampyr and 192 for Guardians.
Those RCCs have additional notes. Wampyrs "unable to work". Guardians "unable to learn and manipulate".
Wilds are not described as being unable to learn/manipulate/work magic. Their 'none' is restrictionless, like the Dark Guardian.

Western Empire

Page 209 left: the 'Magic Note' for masters is identical to the 'Magic Powers' in Nightbane or the 'Combat' note in Kingdoms.
Page 209 right: the 'Magic Note' for secondaries says "Same as Master". This is a significant and unique change. This means that (unlike Kingdoms/Bane) they do NOT lose any magical knowledge. It also means (like Kingdoms, unlike Bane) they cannot gain new PPE.
Page 210 left: the magic note for Wilds is identical to Kingdoms' note under Combat. They forget "any magic known" not just "magic spells" like in Nightbane.
Still nothing restricting them from gaining PPE or learning new spells.
I expect this is just something that a lot of GMs houserule thinking Wilds should suck.
But perhaps their wild nature allows them to learn magic, while Masters/Secondaries are locked in place and too enthralled by their new abilities to do so?

Vampire Kingdoms Revised Edition

page 41 revamps the approach to a Master's PPE in a more thorough way than anything before.
All previous books did not address what happened to the PPE they had in a previous magic OCC.
Except maybe Mystic Russia and that whole Necromancer ritual thing, but that's a confusing basket.
So some people may have thought you added it to the new PPE, or the new PPE replaced it, or you picked the higher of the two.
Here we are explicitly told to add 1/2 of what they used to have to the base Masters get.

page 45 treats PPE for Secondaries the same way.
It then nerfs the magical abilities of the Secondaries.
They not only lose half their knowledge as before.
Now, the knowledge they do retain, is also cast at half their old level.
I'll take either the Nightbane (increase yo PPE) version or the Western Empire (retain full level) thanks.

page 48 deals with Wilds.
Now they can actually remember spells. "At level 2 proficiency". Even if you were changed when you were only 1st level? Cool power boost!
The spells possible to remember are low-level and few in number, but it's something. Better than the complete wipe-out from VK/NB/WE.
This benefit is probably not worth the new restriction for them: here they are now 'cannot learn new spells' just as the Masters/Secondaries were for the past 3 books.

Psionics are an interesting pickle. I do not think PRPG, Vampire Kingdoms (original), Nightbane or Western Empire make any mention of what happens to the psionics from your past life (if you had any) if you become a vampire, under the stats for that race

Worth noting though, that at the time of PRPG, the Mind Mage was classed among the 'Men of Magic' OCCs even though it was basically the Mind Melter of its day. So in saying they kept their magic, they could have also been referring to that.

Also worth noting that Esteban Morricco (Vampire Kingdoms 140) who was a Mystic, says "as well as psi-powers from life as a mystic" including the super gained at 4th. Implying that Master vampires retained 100% of their psionics fully intact, like with magic, although it seems they are frozen like magic abilities along with the OCC.

Esteban also has a note after his PPE and ISP. It says the ISP and PPE and bonuses of the mystic OCC are not applicable. This is in contrast to the REVISED treatment, where a portion of the PPE/ISP from an old OCC can be added to the vampire amounts, rather than being replaced by them.

Wampyrs were listed as being able to gain psionics beyond the basic while the standard 3 in Nightbane were not. The Mystic OCC existed in this book so it could've been addressed.

The Revised Edition is what really turned this on its head. Interestingly all the 'former OCC' tables say "psychic other than the mind melter". Is there something about being a Mind Melter that prevents you from becoming a vampire? Why are the other master psi classes not excluded in this way?

Unlike Mr. Esteban though, it seems Masters in REVISED are now compromised. Cut to HALF the experience level in power, unlike their magic. But at least they remember them all.

Secondaries are at half power too, but only remember half. Wilds are even worse, 1/3 power (level) and 1/3 the amount.

I'm left wondering: do you round down fractions in these cases?

Would a level 3 burster who became a secondary have level 1 strength?

Would a level 5 burster who became a wild use powers at level 1 strength?

[Nekira Sudacne]

The Revised Edition is what really turned this on its head. Interestingly all the 'former OCC' tables say "psychic other than the mind melter". Is there something about being a Mind Melter that prevents you from becoming a vampire? Why are the other master psi classes not excluded in this way?

Actually it means Mind Melters lose their psionic powers, not that they can't be turned. why mind melters lose theirs and no one else is a mystery. Prehaps something in the vampire transformation process fundamentally shifts the part of their brain that makes the mind melter a mind melter.

Unlike Mr. Esteban though, it seems Masters in REVISED are now compromised. Cut to HALF the experience level in power, unlike their magic. But at least they remember them all.

Secondaries are at half power too, but only remember half. Wilds are even worse, 1/3 power (level) and 1/3 the amount.

I'm left wondering: do you round down fractions in these cases?

Would a level 3 burster who became a secondary have level 1 strength?

Would a level 5 burster who became a wild use powers at level 1 strength?

Palladium very rarely specifies if you round up or down, take your pick of personal preference. I generally say round down just to be safe, but that's just as much a houserule as saying round up.

[drewkitty ~..~]

In PB, I have noticed, that if you have to round PPE or ISP the rounding is always costing the player/character something. Which usually means that you are rounding the numbers up to the next whole power point.

[eliakon]

Or one could conclude that each of the individual games is its own game and will have slightly different rules.....

I would also point out that the First Edition PF Vampire was a different sort of creature than the V.I. Vampire and so it will use different rules.......

[Riftmaker]

VAmpired are powerful creatures and giving them any kind of an upgrade is dicy. Id go with the UR version. Gives them variation but also makes it clear the process of turning into an undead COSTS SOMETHING.

Not that a vampire who is also a crappy version burster wouldn't REALLY hard to hurt with wood, water or relatively pure (85% I think) silver. Remember the new vampire kingdoms make 90% of spells either useless against them or greatly reduced on them.

[Tor]

Or one could conclude that each of the individual games is its own game and will have slightly different rules

OR perhaps consider that when vampires are made in different dimensions, they have very slight differences

What do you mean 'or'? Isn't that what I explored?

Or are you thinking that a Secondary Vampire who forgets half his spells in Nightbane Earth is going to remember them again when he visits the Western Empire and then forget them again when he visits Rifts Earth?

I would also point out that the First Edition PF Vampire was a different sort of creature than the V.I. Vampire.

The most different from the rest for sure, but with how little fleshing out it had, hard to say for sure.

Id go with the UR version.

Not sure what this means... RUE... Vampire Kingdoms Revised?

Not that a vampire who is also a crappy version burster wouldn't REALLY hard to hurt with wood, water or relatively pure (85% I think) silver. Remember the new vampire kingdoms make 90% of spells either useless against them or greatly reduced on them.

Would make Psi-Nullifiers extra improt for the CS in these cases.

[eliakon]

Or one could conclude that each of the individual games is its own game and will have slightly different rules

OR perhaps consider that when vampires are made in different dimensions, they have very slight differences

What do you mean 'or'? Isn't that what I explored?

Or are you thinking that a Secondary Vampire who forgets half his spells in Nightbane Earth is going to remember them again when he visits the Western Empire and then forget them again when he visits Rifts Earth?

No I mean that some secondary vampires lose half their spells, and some don't. It will depend on which game/what sort of vampire turned them

I would also point out that the First Edition PF Vampire was a different sort of creature than the V.I. Vampire.

The most different from the rest for sure, but with how little fleshing out it had, hard to say for sure.

The PF1 vampire is listed as a Demon.....I would say that is a rather significant difference right there....

[Tor]

We seem to be on the same page in regard to the first point. GM option whether there are distinct vampire breeds or whether it's 1 breed but you get permanently fixed in a state depending on where you first get turned.


Rifts World Book 1 page

Palladium Fantasy World Book 8 Western Empire page 206:
"there is only one demonic species of True Vampire, the legendary demons known as Undead Vampires"
"The vampire can be male or female, adult or child, but never a fellow demon"

207:
"levels of superiority have created a caste system among Undead Vampires. The demons instantly and instinctively recognize their superior"

208:
"The physical transformation involved in becoming an Undead Vampire turns the mortal into a (relatively) immortal demon.
"What differentiates Undead Vampires from other demons"

211:
"A failed roll means the vampire succumbs to his blood lust and rushes off to feed. Only physical restraint will stop the demon"

215:
"The shadow or the physical touch of a cross will inflict such pain that the demon must roll versus horror factor"
"Many misguided souls believe a wooden stake thrust through the heart of a vampire kills the demon."

Vampire Kingdoms revised page 16:
"The vampire must target the person to be seduced, make eye contact and behave in a seductive, alluring manner for this attack and manipulation to work, The moment the demon attacks, the spell is broken."

17:
"the risen dead is not the person who died, but a demon contained within the body of the once living"

20:
"vampires do not breathe and can survive in a vacuum. The demons can also breathe smoke" (albeit this looks like Doc Reid)

The original WB1 also called them demons somewhere I think. Not sure about Nightbane.