New scale for rrt?

[Gogal]

I usually stick to lurking. When I bought into this game I did so to be able to play multiple generations against each other. I understand that the Cyclones will be tiny, and that painting them would be a pain, but I have to say that palladium should stick to their initial word and stay scale consistent.
Now, there is only 1 store in the Pittsburgh area I have found that has any of the rrpgt of any kind, so I don't think it is a huge huge deal.
My real concern is switching scale means additional rules, screws with the line of sight rules, and complicating a game that was supposed to be quick to pick up.
I don't think there is going to be any real right answer, as any thing beyond keeping the same scale will require new rules to cover the scale change, which means more books. I am worried that the game is already a tough sell, with its complicated kits, but changing scales and complicating the game by doing so has the potential of turning off more of an already apathetic community.
I want to see this game succeede and I want to have people outside the kickstarted in my area to play. I want to see stores carry this game. I know the kickstarter issues has deterred a local store from carrying the game.
Again, I think, for as much as it will suck, that this needs to be one thing that palladium sticks to from the kickstarter.
Just my 2 cents, for what it is worth.

[bielmic]

I agree with you Bielmic that a sliding scale would definetly be the most elegant and visually appealing solution.

As it stands the whole problem arises from Robotech's mashing of three separate source series together, but look at each series by itself and tell me that scales don't seem to shift from episode to episode.

By using your suggestion of a sliding scale we could end up with a range of pieces that while not 100% accurate to the numbers posted in the RPG books / robotech.com / name your source would 'look' right for both role play aspects and for RRT as a wargame and isn't that really what everyone is aiming for? The ability to combine all three eras for the widest selection of troop choices and army choices for the game and the ability to use the miniatures for their RPG campaigns?

Yes it would still leave teeny tiny cyclones on multiples to a base which wouldn't necessarily work for following individual characters in a role playing scenario, but as others (and myself) have pointed out already you could easily do a few 28mm Cyclones as either resin display pieces like the SDF-1 or collectors editions. As long as they fall underneath the 3" high rule that I read is a potential sticking point in another thread then everything is copacetic and everyone should be happy legally?

- End of Line -

Thanks for the response. I agree that the priority should be to find an acceptable middle ground that satisfies to some degree the most gamers (both tabletop primarily and roleplayers). The cyclones are always problematic because they are both important to the New Gen/Shadow Chronicles era but are also completely different to the other mecha. In the RPG stats, they're grossly overpowered with a huge amount of firepower and MDC for something less than 1/10th the volume of an Alpha let alone the macross stuff. There is only so much you hand wave away with the "improved tech" reason. In any case, the rules are going to be a huge balance issue for any minis wargame over skirmish scale that focuses on them as unit/model balance in an opposed minis game is much more important than a cooperative RPG. For RRPGT, I think the best solution is to multibase them and convert the stats for a single cyclone over the the minis game for the group of 3 cyclones (at 10mm pictured above) on one large standard 40mm base. If you have a rpg hero, you take a single mini and mount it on a much smaller base (like putting the 10mm cyclone I posted above onto the dime) and give him the full stats for himself. The overpowered single cyclones will be kept to a numerical minimum if you make the upgrade like the VF-1S (two max per army, upgrade to a normal squad) and you still meet the RPG license roots requirement. Ideas?

[Jerell]

After looking at the sizes on your posted scale, I have to say I firmly believe either your sliding scale or 10mm is absolutely the best option. Have you taken this to the kick starter web page yet?

So long as the models still fit the bases, there should be no need for a rules rewrite.

15mm would be way too big though. Just check out what size the Beta would be! That does look like a real option to me.

[glitterboy2098]

actually no, sliding scale as proposed by Beilmic is not the best choice.. because it screws up the scale of larger units like the Alpha, Beta, royal command battloid, the Ajax, the Condor, and so on. designs which scale perfectly well with macross at 6mm. a sliding scale as he proposes will result on those designs being drastically oversized, which will screw up cross-timeline compatibility.

the best choice is the course of action i have outlined in these posts:
viewtopic.php?f=97&t=148274#p2864925
andhttp://palladium-megaverse.com/forum ... 2#p2864884

which, to sum up..
since the small units like cyclones are the problem, apply a rescale only to them and other small mecha of similar size, and then only to 9mm or 10mm scale. the result is a small mecha figure that holds enough detail but still looks good next to the bigger 6mm scale mecha. and it has the advantage of keeping the overall scale looking correct next to each other, and not giving line of sight advantages or disadvantages to any given generation because of scale.


Battletech has already done this with their battlearmor figures. Iron Wind metals switched to larger scale battlearmor nearly a decade back, and it has worked greatly for them. the larger suits still look good alongside the 6mm scale mechs and protomechs, and have a lot more detail than the tiny blobs that were ral partha's 6mm scale versions.

[bielmic]

actually no, sliding scale as proposed by Beilmic is not the best choice.. because it screws up the scale of larger units like the Alpha, Beta, royal command battloid, the Ajax, the Condor, and so on. designs which scale perfectly well with macross at 6mm. a sliding scale as he proposes will result on those designs being drastically oversized, which will screw up cross-timeline compatibility.

the best choice is the course of action i have outlined in these posts:
viewtopic.php?f=97&t=148274#p2864925
andhttp://palladium-megaverse.com/forum ... 2#p2864884

which, to sum up..
since the small units like cyclones are the problem, apply a rescale only to them and other small mecha of similar size, and then only to 9mm or 10mm scale. the result is a small mecha figure that holds enough detail but still looks good next to the bigger 6mm scale mecha. and it has the advantage of keeping the overall scale looking correct next to each other, and not giving line of sight advantages or disadvantages to any given generation because of scale.

Battletech has already done this with their battlearmor figures. Iron Wind metals switched to larger scale battlearmor nearly a decade back, and it has worked greatly for them. the larger suits still look good alongside the 6mm scale mechs and protomechs, and have a lot more detail than the tiny blobs that were ral partha's 6mm scale versions.

The thing is that cyclones aren't the only problem. If you bump up cyclones, then they tower over invid scouts so you should bump them up the same amout to not "screw up" the scale... which makes invid scouts suddenly as big as the invid troopers (sorry, I'm using the 1st edition RPG terms) which doesn't make sense so you need to bump them up just as much to still be bigger than the scouts... which puts them at almost the same size as invid commanders and so on. The same is true of infantry in Southern cross interacting with power armor interacting with battloids which interact with veritechs.

While I have painted plenty of much smaller models than the hovertank at 6mm that would barely reach up to the nose cose of a VF-1 Battloid, I don't think that scale (particularly combined with the parts count inherent in Palladium's process) is the best choice for the average gamer. A common complaint is that the macross figs are fiddly and difficult to assemble; that will only get worse if you end up with a model that is 1/8th the size of a VF-1 which is what the "correct" hovertank would be (1/2 the height, 1/2 the width, 1/2 the length = 1/8th the volume) even if the parts count comes down. It doesn't "screw up" the scale but rather purposefully adjusts it so that things that should be bigger than the next step down are still bigger... just not by the same exact amount. The only way I see that relative scale to continue is by upscaling each model individually as needed and not with just a blanket one size fits all approach. The priority should be given to satisfy the average gamer not the extremes of impenetrable scale purity or do what is best (for me) and screw the rest (of the eras) folks. What is best as a single stat line in an RPG or a size for a large model designed to be on a shelf by itself or at most with 2-3 others is NOT the same thing as what is best for a mutli-era miniatures game based on a mashup of 3 different TV shows combined into one.

Star Wars Armada is doing something along the lines of the sliding scale. The ISD is bigger than the VSD at a glance but not *EXACTLY* by the stats given officially. Why? Because if they went with the exact size then rebel frigate and correllian corvette would be unacceptably small. Bumping up the correllian corvette but leaving the others at the exact correct size just results in the corvette looking ridiculous next to them. Instead, they're keeping the relative sizes the same so that the ISD>VSD>Frigate>Corvette without sticking stubbornly to numbers just because they're there. Similarly, a VF-1 should still be bigger than an Alpha which still should be bigger than a Hovertank which should be bigger than a cyclone. The exact number of mm between each shouldn't be the biggest priority but rather making sure you keep their relative "place in the line" correct. If you want to see how NOT to do it, look at the previous WOTC prepainted plastic star wars ship game. Ships like starfighters were bigger than Leia's corvette and small cruisers were the size of Imperial Star Destroyers... and fans hated it.

[glitterboy2098]

bielmic, did you even read the links i provided? i'm not proposing just cyclones. i'm proposing that all small units (say, under 20ft tall) get the scale bump. so cyclones, silverbacks, ASC powered armor, the Logan, invid scouts and troopers, etc.

and X-wing isn't a good example here, because they don't use true line of sight, while RTT does. in RTT, the size of the figure matters (unlike in xwing, where it's really the base and the figures are just glorified icons), and this meansthat on your sliding scale, the southern cross and new generation big mecha are at a disadvantage because of their larger size.. it totally screws up cross-period play.

the smaller units though.. they are small enough that a scale change won't make enough of a difference to effect them in play much. there will be an effect, but being a little bit more visible in terrain will not disadvantage them as much, because they are still much smaller than the big mecha unitsl iek the VF-1, Ajax, Beta, Alpha, etc.

also, limiting it to just the small units is going to be a lot less work for palladium and Ninja Division.. less need for fact checking, and a lot less paperwork to keep track of when it comes to designing the specifications of each figure. given the difficulty PB and ninja division have already had in regardsto that with waves 1 and 2, and the delay's it created, reducing their workload seems like a wise idea.

[bielmic]

I did but my point is that an abrupt scale jump is still jarring regardless of where you put it. There will always be folks just above the line that suddenly look out of place. For instance, if your cutoff is 20ft tall then a unit that is 18ft tall in the fluff suddenly leaps up to the high twenties and dwarfs the cannonical slightly taller hovertank. You're always going to have that issue unless you address the whole line paradoxically individually. You bring up a good point about TLOS but the caveat to that is that it frankly doesn't matter because there are no prior SC/NG era figs to worry about. No one has played RRPGT with official figs and you don't have to match something previously made. There is no issue of one Alpha being easier to hit than another official alpha; there will only be the one Alpha and TLOS is made to it. The fact that it is 1-3mm different in height at 3-4 ft away will almost never be an issue for the vast majority of actual LOS determinations. What is important the bump in 1-3mm keeps it taller than the "smaller" stuff under your cutoff that got bumped alot more.

Don't get me wrong; what you're proposing is indeed reasonable but I personally see the potential problem of a single jarring step off in scale to be much more problematic than a series of smaller ever decreasing bumps. YMMV. Also, I wasn't referring to X-wing but rather Armada just to clarify (it's important in case someone is reading this and didn't know there was a difference). X-wing starfighter with one notable exception are exactly to scale; Armada uses the type of sliding scale shift with their capitol ships that I'm proposing here.

Finally, it's not "alot less work" to do it your way. Rescaling a model is as simple as a few button presses (I designed and printed two 3D models with shapeways). Rescaling it is no harder than resizing a picture as long as this decision is made AT THE APPROPRIATE STEP OF DEVELOPMENT. If you try doing that AFTER you've laid out the sprue and checked the various draw angles/normals and such then you'd be correct. Considering Palladium is still working on wave 2 for that step, I highly doubt they're beyond just the initial planning stages of plastic production for other eras. If so, rescaling is really easy and you just end up doing the same work you would have done anyways afterwords. The key is to not flip flop on that too late in the process.

[glitterboy2098]

actually it's not the rescaling thats the issue, so much as the keeping track of a dozen scales (possibly more if you have to resort to "one off" adjustments to mecha to keep them looking good), determining what the figure dimensions need to be be for each mode, and then making sure everybody is using the right specifications for the figure they are working on at that time.. that makes the amount of work quality control in the specifications and design phases has to do shoot through the roof.

also, it isn't as simple as "make a shape, then resize".. to get the best detail at the desired size you have specifically design the model for that size.. if you just make a model of the full size and shrink it you end up with details that are too tiny to see, more often than not. you have to account for the size when doing detail.. sometimes you have to have to resort to exaggerated features to make certain parts come across, or find shapes that hint at a detail that is too small to show up.

[BradyTech]

Looking at bielmic's links, I agree that 15mm is too big. 10mm looks the best to me. I'd be okay with sliding scale, too.

But Wave 2 should still be 6mm and the next wave produced. Macross Saga Robotech is where the biggest, most diversified, and interesting battles are to be found.

[bielmic]

actually it's not the rescaling thats the issue, so much as the keeping track of a dozen scales (possibly more if you have to resort to "one off" adjustments to mecha to keep them looking good), determining what the figure dimensions need to be be for each mode, and then making sure everybody is using the right specifications for the figure they are working on at that time.. that makes the amount of work quality control in the specifications and design phases has to do shoot through the roof.

also, it isn't as simple as "make a shape, then resize".. to get the best detail at the desired size you have specifically design the model for that size.. if you just make a model of the full size and shrink it you end up with details that are too tiny to see, more often than not. you have to account for the size when doing detail.. sometimes you have to have to resort to exaggerated features to make certain parts come across, or find shapes that hint at a detail that is too small to show up.

I'm sorry but that explanation is comming across like an infomercial making a simple process (opening an orange juice carton) look harder just to sell you a solution (an orange juice carton spike nozzle!). Keeping track of a scale for a mecha isn't burdensome; it is recording two numbers (a % increase and a mm scale value) for each product. I'm going to hazard a guess that it would be just a tiny drop in the bucket in paperwork compared with everything else like design, shipping, art, production, and licensing approval. That scale change is made at the model design stage and simply carried through without change to sprue layout and beyond. It literally happens anyways to get the model to a proper 6mm state so the only difference is at that one single point. Everything beyond that is the same series of steps you'd have to take regardless. Even getting the 3D prototypes (if they get them) is the same since whether at 6mm, 8mm, or 10mm they'd still have to check the sizes regardless along with final plastic test sprues.

It is only a problem if you decide to change the scale latter on once the work has already been done. If you've already done a bunch of New Gen minis at 6mm and then need to go back to change the scale then you would indeed be incurring more work because you're redoing what was already done. If you do on a sliding scale at the appropriate initial planning stage, it is no harder than just sticking wtih 6mm since you have to check each mini for scale anyways at each important step to make sure it wasn't accidentally changed along the way.

I do agree with you that you need to exaggerate certain features more depending on the size of the mini to get the necessary physically visible resolution of those details. I had to do something similar for my figs. Eyebrow ridges that looked great on the 3d file were barely noticeable when printed out at 28mm. But the thing is that you have to do that anyways and the numbers from one mech don't carry over to the next. It needs to be done at the design stage individually regardless of which scale. If you choose scale X, you still need to do it for just like if you chose scale Y. The difference is in how much you exaggerate, not whether you do.

[bielmic]

Looking at bielmic's links, I agree that 15mm is too big. 10mm looks the best to me. I'd be okay with sliding scale, too.

But Wave 2 should still be 6mm and the next wave produced. Macross Saga Robotech is where the biggest, most diversified, and interesting battles are to be found.

I don't think they mentioned doing Macross at anything other than 6mm but I'll have to double check that tonight. That would be a much bigger issue if they decided to do so mid-macross waves but I really doubt that is the case.

[glitterboy2098]

additional pictures to illustrate my proposal:
6mm destroid sized mech alongside 10mm cyclone sized battlearmor
http://www.solaris7.com/files/members/6 ... L_Kage.JPG

same, but with a variety of battlearmor types to illustrate the level of detail one can achieve. (and note.. these are plastics.. and were prepainted so a bit sloppy)
http://www.solaris7.com/files/members/6 ... ence_3.jpg

and 10mm scale battlearmor (the salamanders in back, note they are more silverback sized in the battletech universe, bigger than most BA) alongside 6mm GHQ style infantry (not GHQ made though)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BP6iIBi2QPw/T ... 00/004.JPG

which illustrates that the scale difference is less jarring that it might seem from the raw numbers.


and one of the biggest problems with the "sliding scale" proposal is that it's treating each faction to a set scale.. but in southern cross and new gen the range between units is pretty wide in terms of size.
what works good for a invid scout or a cyclone gets into "terribly oversized" for an invid commander, an invid overlord, or a Beta, Ajax, etc.
and since target silloute matters in the rules, because of true line of sight.. yeah, "terribly oversized" is something we want to avoid.

so if you go sliding scale, you pretty much have to do it figure by figure..

[bielmic]

and one of the biggest problems with the "sliding scale" proposal is that it's treating each faction to a set scale.. but in southern cross and new gen the range between units is pretty wide in terms of size.
what works good for a invid scout or a cyclone gets into "terribly oversized" for an invid commander, an invid overlord, or a Beta, Ajax, etc.
and since target silloute matters in the rules, because of true line of sight.. yeah, "terribly oversized" is something we want to avoid.

so if you go sliding scale, you pretty much have to do it figure by figure..

I've been saying that as part of the proposal for a sliding scale in case you think otherwise. I've never said that the sliding scale is determined simply by era or faction but rather that you evaluate each model and slide it up based on it's fluff accurate size. The smallest stuff like cyclones would be most bumped but the most % but stuff like alphas and betas would get the smallest proportional increase. For instance, we're in agreement on a bump up to 10mm size being roughly correct for cyclones but the next set of minis like Southern cross power armor might only get 40% because they're a bit taller in the fluff. Keeping them in the range of noticeably bigger than cyclones but still noticeably smaller than the battloids/bioroids is the goal.

[Premier]

Re: Scale,

For the Record, Palladium Books has not made any determination of changing scales. Palladium is simply encouraging a constructive discussion regarding it as there are significant pros and cons that support both 6 mm and 15 mm scale (particularly with the later Robotech eras such as New Generation & Shadow Chronicles). This is one of many hot topics that is being brought up by fans and gamers alike in emails, PMs, forum topics and at conventions and it warrants serious thought, planning and support moving forward. That is why Palladium wants the constructive feedback regarding the matter. Ideally it would be great to have and offer both scales, but that is being optimistic and Palladium Books wants to know if both are not feasible, which is the most preferred.

So there has been no decision or approval to change the scale from 6 mm to any other scale at this time. The current products produced and still being developed for RRT are all designated for 6 mm.

Thank you,

Charles Walton II
RRT Support Team
Palladium Books

[glitterboy2098]

and one of the biggest problems with the "sliding scale" proposal is that it's treating each faction to a set scale.. but in southern cross and new gen the range between units is pretty wide in terms of size.
what works good for a invid scout or a cyclone gets into "terribly oversized" for an invid commander, an invid overlord, or a Beta, Ajax, etc.
and since target silloute matters in the rules, because of true line of sight.. yeah, "terribly oversized" is something we want to avoid.

so if you go sliding scale, you pretty much have to do it figure by figure..

I've been saying that as part of the proposal for a sliding scale in case you think otherwise. I've never said that the sliding scale is determined simply by era or faction but rather that you evaluate each model and slide it up based on it's fluff accurate size. The smallest stuff like cyclones would be most bumped but the most % but stuff like alphas and betas would get the smallest proportional increase. For instance, we're in agreement on a bump up to 10mm size being roughly correct for cyclones but the next set of minis like Southern cross power armor might only get 40% because they're a bit taller in the fluff. Keeping them in the range of noticeably bigger than cyclones but still noticeably smaller than the battloids/bioroids is the goal.

then you need to make that more clear, because your examples go by faction not figure..

also that like, octuples the workload when it comes to figuring out size everything is.

my proposal has the advantage of looking good while minimizing the extra work needed.

[bielmic]

then you need to make that more clear, because your examples go by faction not figure..

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be...

In my first post I include MULTIPLE factions and eras together in the same scale shift. They're not separated exclusively by either faction nor race but rather specificially by size.

For instance, you could increase the "medium" sized mecha from 25ft to 35ft (so Alphas, Betas, large Invid, etc) by 20% that makes them visually impressive yet still smaller at a glance than Macross stuff. The smaller stuff at 15ft to 25ft (pretty much all southern cross as well as midsized invid and a few shadowchronicles things) get bumped by 30%. The ocassional tiny things like invid scouts, cyclones, and human sized infantry get bumped 40%.

Then there is the top post on this page where I say exactly what you want...

The best, as stated above, would be to evaluate each model individually and generally increase the SC/Mospeada stuff 20-30% except for the tiniest like the invid scout and cyclones that would bump up 40-50% respectively each.

also that like, octuples the workload when it comes to figuring out size everything is.

Yes, it does. Of course, a drop in the bucket multiplied by 8 is still just 8 drops in the bucket of water that making the two eras from start to finish would be but has a massively more important effect than the same amount of work, say designing the box art of one fig, would have. It is an investment that they should absolutely make because a messed up and/or incompatible scale within the game will stop people from playing and more importantly buying. In any case, we're apparently not as far apart as you initially mistakenly thought so I'll drop the matter.

[McPherson]

Well Premier I hope Palladium are looking at whats being said by people because a lot of people are stating that 15mm is quite simply too big of a change, many are accepting a smaller change and many are saying stick to whats already available.

I hope this wider feedback is being listened to instead of just a few trusted 'fan advisers' which is what was posted in the update, after all not everyone can afford to travel to conventions or the Open House to speak to the PB crew in person.

- End of Line -

[Premier]

Well Premier I hope Palladium are looking at whats being said by people because a lot of people are stating that 15mm is quite simply too big of a change, many are accepting a smaller change and many are saying stick to whats already available.

I hope this wider feedback is being listened to instead of just a few trusted 'fan advisers' which is what was posted in the update, after all not everyone can afford to travel to conventions or the Open House to speak to the PB crew in person.

- End of Line -

Thank you McPherson,

I agree with you and really have taken a step back to be as objective as possible. In review of comments, suggestions and inquiries on the forums as well as the comments on the Kickstarter (both scale update topic and general comments) as well as emails, PMs, convention conversations, etc., to help with this matter, there have been some strong pros and cons on both sides of the fence. I see the issue brewing or circulating more so on when it comes to New Generation and Shadow Chronicles.

Personally, I would like to see both scales done:
- 6 mm for Scale consistency for all the ROBOTECH eras and battlefield gameplay style.
- 15 mm or smaller for skirmish style RRT New Generation gameplay and ease of painting and better detail preservation for collectors value for the game pieces.

In the end, there will also be a poll devised to help garner and gauge where things are and what the wider feedback prefers. There is a great deal to consider and there are noteworthy suggestions and feedback on both sides of the coin regarding 6 mm versus 15 mm, or any other possible scale suggestion in between for that matter. This is why Palladium is encouraging -constructive- input, sharing of thoughts, views, references and experiences with various scales. From what I have reviewed thus far, there are some strong objective knowledgeable responses, specific scale support and concerns to help determine which path we may need to take or continue down.

Thanks,

Charles Walton II
RRT Support Team
Palladium Books

[Jefffar]

I like that idea. A 6mm battle game including all generations and a 15mm skirmish game focused heavily on the Infantry, Power Armour and Cyclone scale units.

[bielmic]

So there has been no decision or approval to change the scale from 6 mm to any other scale at this time. The current products produced and still being developed for RRT are all designated for 6 mm.

Thank you,

Charles Walton II
RRT Support Team
Palladium Books

Thanks for swinging by the thread and dispelling that. I hope to hear soon from Palladium via KS update both on Wave 2 progress as well as with what the options in the upcoming poll will be available for the scale issue.

[LtPebbles]

Glad to hear that Wave 2 will still be 6mm. Thanks for the info.

[zyanitevp]

Please go to the awesome facebook page Robotech Tactics Unofficial and vote on scale. If you are not a member, ask to become one.

[tdumontelle]

I just voted. I've been thinking about all of it and I voted to stick with 6mm. I think they can just scale creep smaller figures a little to give them a little more mojo (for lack of a better word).

[wilycoyote]

Thanks Premier, not sure if that is news, as we really should expect no change through to the end of Wave 2.

The key issue may be the original promises to keep the same scale across all eras when the KS was launched and was one of the selling points -get those Pods fighting Invids etc. Another pull was the use of the range for Battletech as "unseeens" so again 1/285 seemed the way to go. Looking back is easy, but maybe pushing this was wrong, like promising backers before retail.

So there is now an expectation that despite size issues that 1/285 will be used right accross RTT. Possibly if deemed a necessity, then this could be outsourced to another company to develop - GHQ or another small scale specialist.

Meanwhile PB may have to take a hard decision and go for a new skirmish set using a larger scale. 10mm seems more doable but in the later eras the low model count still makes 15mm viable - potentially also appealing to mecha collectors

Whichever way PB, have already created potential deep hole for themselves and I do wonder why now and not after Wave 2 is completed. Surely this debate was not needed till at least the start of next year, simply as it is probable it will only happen if crowd funding is used again?

[Premier]

I like that idea. A 6mm battle game including all generations and a 15mm skirmish game focused heavily on the Infantry, Power Armour and Cyclone scale units.

Thanks Jefffar, "Its the only way to be sure." (Hix wink at Aliens film).

Actually, I think it would be very feasible to do a modified skirmish RRT for New Generation and Shadow Chronicles without interfering with the 6 mm scale that has already begun for RRT. We all win. As a vote, I can say I suggest sticking with 6 mm scale as planned and unchanged, build the RRT game. Then fuel the modified 15 mm New Gen/Shadow Chron skirmish accordingly. That way both games rock but don't necessarily tread on each others feet. Just my 2 cents of course.

[Premier]

So there has been no decision or approval to change the scale from 6 mm to any other scale at this time. The current products produced and still being developed for RRT are all designated for 6 mm.

Thank you,

Charles Walton II
RRT Support Team
Palladium Books

Thanks for swinging by the thread and dispelling that. I hope to hear soon from Palladium via KS update both on Wave 2 progress as well as with what the options in the upcoming poll will be available for the scale issue.

No Problem at all, glad to help. Yeah, there aren't any scale changes to warrant the concerns. RRT Wave One is 6mm, Wave Two is 6mm and the new GHQ RRT "Earth Defenders" are 6mm.
Palladium just wants to know what others think and how they feel moving forward if it is NOT feasible to do both scales for future eras.

Speaking of moving forward there will be more updates & communication on Wave 2 and other aspects of RRT.

I am also reviewing the scale discussion as their are some strong, valid points being mentioned and suggested on both scales and for other options that will serve as fruitful knowledge that could -constructively- assist us all in devising a more accurate poll.

[quote=Glad to hear that Wave 2 will still be 6mm. Thanks for the info.

No problem glad to help.


Cheers,

Charles Walton II
RRT Support Team
Palladium Books

[Premier]

Thanks Premier, not sure if that is news, as we really should expect no change through to the end of Wave 2.

The key issue may be the original promises to keep the same scale across all eras when the KS was launched and was one of the selling points -get those Pods fighting Invids etc. Another pull was the use of the range for Battletech as "unseeens" so again 1/285 seemed the way to go. Looking back is easy, but maybe pushing this was wrong, like promising backers before retail.

So there is now an expectation that despite size issues that 1/285 will be used right accross RTT. Possibly if deemed a necessity, then this could be outsourced to another company to develop - GHQ or another small scale specialist.

Meanwhile PB may have to take a hard decision and go for a new skirmish set using a larger scale. 10mm seems more doable but in the later eras the low model count still makes 15mm viable - potentially also appealing to mecha collectors

Whichever way PB, have already created potential deep hole for themselves and I do wonder why now and not after Wave 2 is completed. Surely this debate was not needed till at least the start of next year, simply as it is probable it will only happen if crowd funding is used again?

No problem Wilcoyote, glad to help.

You have made some valid points here. "Personally", I would be a strong advocate for seeing both delivered with 6 mm fulfillment at the fore front, with a awesome 10-15 mm skirmish as a nice follow up or "IF" feasible a paralleled development. Not as interchangeable units within the same game.

The scale debate has basically re-spawned with what was discussed in the massive KS Update, particularly if were going to have Invid versus Zentraedi in the pre-wars saga.
It was actually going on, beforehand, as I remember comprehensive emails, discussions, and in-depth Gen Con discussions. Even before that when I learned that RRT was going to happen, my first inquiry was about future generations and scales. (man.... do I want AJACs, Alphas and Cyclones!!!!!!)

This time instead of Palladium just boldly diving into the other Robtoech eras, it wanted the RRT Backers, Gamers and Supporters to really help devise a -preferred- scale beforehand.
Sure there are other RRT subjects that are also being discussed, other aspects such as Wave 2 Production, New improvements on units going forward (less piece counts, sprue layouts, support units, revised rules, etc.) All of these facets are on deck. Scale is simply one of the topics where feedback and productive conversation can help with guidance and fulfillment moving forward.

Thank you,

Charles Walton II
RRT Support Team
Palladium Books

[bielmic]

Thanks Premier, not sure if that is news, as we really should expect no change through to the end of Wave 2.

The key issue may be the original promises to keep the same scale across all eras when the KS was launched and was one of the selling points -get those Pods fighting Invids etc. Another pull was the use of the range for Battletech as "unseeens" so again 1/285 seemed the way to go. Looking back is easy, but maybe pushing this was wrong, like promising backers before retail.

So there is now an expectation that despite size issues that 1/285 will be used right accross RTT. Possibly if deemed a necessity, then this could be outsourced to another company to develop - GHQ or another small scale specialist.

Meanwhile PB may have to take a hard decision and go for a new skirmish set using a larger scale. 10mm seems more doable but in the later eras the low model count still makes 15mm viable - potentially also appealing to mecha collectors

Whichever way PB, have already created potential deep hole for themselves and I do wonder why now and not after Wave 2 is completed. Surely this debate was not needed till at least the start of next year, simply as it is probable it will only happen if crowd funding is used again?

No problem Wilcoyote, glad to help.

You have made some valid points here. "Personally", I would be a strong advocate for seeing both delivered with 6 mm fulfillment at the fore front, with a awesome 10-15 mm skirmish as a nice follow up or "IF" feasible a paralleled development. Not as interchangeable units within the same game.

The scale debate has basically re-spawned with what was discussed in the massive KS Update, particularly if were going to have Invid versus Zentraedi in the pre-wars saga.
It was actually going on, beforehand, as I remember comprehensive emails, discussions, and in-depth Gen Con discussions. Even before that when I learned that RRT was going to happen, my first inquiry was about future generations and scales. (man.... do I want AJACs, Alphas and Cyclones!!!!!!)

This time instead of Palladium just boldly diving into the other Robtoech eras, it wanted the RRT Backers, Gamers and Supporters to really help devise a -preferred- scale beforehand.
Sure there are other RRT subjects that are also being discussed, other aspects such as Wave 2 Production, New improvements on units going forward (less piece counts, sprue layouts, support units, revised rules, etc.) All of these facets are on deck. Scale is simply one of the topics where feedback and productive conversation can help with guidance and fulfillment moving forward.

Thank you,

Charles Walton II
RRT Support Team
Palladium Books

I highly recommend you look at all the existing skirmish games before you permanently decide to go on that course of action, especially the 15mm ones. It shouldn't take you too long because I can't recall EVER seeing a skirmish game at 15mm. 15mm is still exclusively the pervue of mass battle games. Also, if you make a separate skirmish game at a confusingly similar scale like 15mm you're just going to fragment the burgeoning audience. You've got a new game with a very rocky roll out (which in and of itself negatively affects adoption) and you'll be confusing potential customers by introducing a similar but just barely not compatible scale. I can't think of a game that fragments its playerbase with a almost but not quite alternate game that succeeded. Warhammer 40,000k tried it with Inquisitor and failed and they've got a hell of alot of a bigger fanbase than Robotech does. If you're going to do another scale, you have to choose something that has no possible way of being confused with the other game and caters to an almost completely different game feel ala Epic 40k vs normal 40k or Star Wars Armada vs X-wing.

Please take a look at some of the popular skirmish games out there and take not of the scale they use like Infinity (a company that has grown 50-75% each year for years in a row), Malifaux, and even your partner's game Relic Knights by Ninja Division. There has to be a reason that so many games that are shooting for that sweet spot of 5-12 figures per force go for the same scale. If the goal of the game is to focus on infantry ala new gen, then 28mm is what you should be looking at and NOT 15mm. You want to be able to give players the ability to customize their cyclones, armor, silverbacks, SC power armor, etc and you don't really have that option easily at 15mm for infantry. Will it negatively affect folks who want to use stuff like Alphas and other bigger mechs? Possibly. You could still make a kit but they'd be fairly huge on the table and dwarf everything and probably not worth it for you. The flip side of that though is that if folks want to use those larger mecha and/or fight larger games, they have the 6mm to do exactly that instead. The talk of a separate skirmish game when you haven't even rolled out 2/3 of the sculpts of macross that were paid for 2 years ago just really sounds like putting the cart before the horse, especially because your choice of possible scale does NOT mesh well with the scale that skirmish games are known for. I fear that you'd be making yet another scale mistake by not considering the ramifications of such a change both for your future customers and the macross customers.

[ronekiln]

I'm not sure it matters. The widespread disappointment in the current figures combined with the catastrophic role outhas this game crippled at best if not DOA. The backers have been demanding updates for over half a year and instead received a long rambling mix of irrelevancy and new controversy, without addressing anything people have been asking for. Even if we wsnt to be optimistic about this, it's not the tme for Palladium to be addressimg this. It's time to buckle down on Wave 2 and communicate with backers in the manner they were promised and keep asking for. Palladium's refusal is infuriating many fans on a level that is destroying their market and sabatoging future expansions no matter the scale.

The scale doesn't matter if nobody will buy it.

[rosco60559]

I agree with ronekiln. As a backer I want to know where the figs are in development. The only things we've heard about wave 2 since adepticon is 5 3d renders and a release date that went from November to December with a huge maybe behind it. When a big snag in the over all plans hit share it and tell us what is the new plan, not be silent. The whole issue of scale was brought up by Paulson when the ideas were first being pitched to pb and also at the start of the ks campaign. It was promised to be the same scale through out. I agree with some the infantry should be bumped to 10mm and leave the mecha alone, then it's not too big a shift and macross mecha are still in line with the rest. However I haven't heard of or seen this game fly off the shelves so let's worry about wave 2 and maybe that'll help the game out more than a scale discussion.

[Jefffar]

I highly recommend you look at all the existing skirmish games before you permanently decide to go on that course of action, especially the 15mm ones. It shouldn't take you too long because I can't recall EVER seeing a skirmish game at 15mm. 15mm is still exclusively the pervue of mass battle games. Also, if you make a separate skirmish game at a confusingly similar scale like 15mm you're just going to fragment the burgeoning audience. You've got a new game with a very rocky roll out (which in and of itself negatively affects adoption) and you'll be confusing potential customers by introducing a similar but just barely not compatible scale. I can't think of a game that fragments its playerbase with a almost but not quite alternate game that succeeded. Warhammer 40,000k tried it with Inquisitor and failed and they've got a hell of alot of a bigger fanbase than Robotech does. If you're going to do another scale, you have to choose something that has no possible way of being confused with the other game and caters to an almost completely different game feel ala Epic 40k vs normal 40k or Star Wars Armada vs X-wing.

Please take a look at some of the popular skirmish games out there and take not of the scale they use like Infinity (a company that has grown 50-75% each year for years in a row), Malifaux, and even your partner's game Relic Knights by Ninja Division. There has to be a reason that so many games that are shooting for that sweet spot of 5-12 figures per force go for the same scale. If the goal of the game is to focus on infantry ala new gen, then 28mm is what you should be looking at and NOT 15mm. You want to be able to give players the ability to customize their cyclones, armor, silverbacks, SC power armor, etc and you don't really have that option easily at 15mm for infantry. Will it negatively affect folks who want to use stuff like Alphas and other bigger mechs? Possibly. You could still make a kit but they'd be fairly huge on the table and dwarf everything and probably not worth it for you. The flip side of that though is that if folks want to use those larger mecha and/or fight larger games, they have the 6mm to do exactly that instead. The talk of a separate skirmish game when you haven't even rolled out 2/3 of the sculpts of macross that were paid for 2 years ago just really sounds like putting the cart before the horse, especially because your choice of possible scale does NOT mesh well with the scale that skirmish games are known for. I fear that you'd be making yet another scale mistake by not considering the ramifications of such a change both for your future customers and the macross customers.

Just remember that as a skirmish game, the focus will still likely be on mecha units (Cyclones, Power Armour and Silverbacks) rather than individual infantry. Infinity and similar tend to have a number of infantry models supplemented by the big units, while in Robotech the bigger units will predominate. Going into the 25 to 30mm range will mean that most of the models in play are going to range from Terminator to Dreadnought size.

15mm will mean basic infantry aren't very large, but those light mecha will probably range in size from Space Marine to Crisis suit and should be very paintable, customizable and playable.

[bielmic]

Just remember that as a skirmish game, the focus will still likely be on mecha units (Cyclones, Power Armour and Silverbacks) rather than individual infantry. Infinity and similar tend to have a number of infantry models supplemented by the big units, while in Robotech the bigger units will predominate. Going into the 25 to 30mm range will mean that most of the models in play are going to range from Terminator to Dreadnought size.

15mm will mean basic infantry aren't very large, but those light mecha will probably range in size from Space Marine to Crisis suit and should be very paintable, customizable and playable.

I personally classify cyclones and power armors under infantry (albeit on the top end of that category). As long as the scale isn't fudged and is truly 28mm (unlike the frequently 30-32mm stuff out there now), cyclones and power armor (invid, southern cross, etc) would be the size of a space marine terminator which IMO is a perfect fit for a plastic skirmish game centered around them. If they are the focus, a cyclone kit of both modes would have enough room on the small sprues Palladium uses to have tons of customization bits like weapons, variants (30/40/50 series), and even stowage options. You don't need that stuff for a game focused on big stompy robots of 20+ ft or more but you do need it for a human centric skirmish game. The next step up would be invid scouts and silverbacks the size of landspeeders to dreadnoughts roughly (probably bit smaller for the former), battloids/bioroids/hovertanks/invid troopers that would range up to larger vehicle kits like dreadknights/Riptides whereas the absolutely showpiece mecha units that folks only buy a single one of would be the size of the rare huge plastic kits like knight titans for the beta fighter. If you want a game where those larger units predominate, that is exactly why the 6mm one exists. Palladium doesn't even need to make those largest units (at least the veritechs) as they already exist as 1/60 masterpiece kits from Toynami/HG and could instead focus on what folks would buy multiples of (the 25ft and under stuff from both eras which is almost everything from Southern Cross and most of the New Gen/Shadow Chronicles things). Having most of the stuff range in size between a space marine and a dreadnought is exactly what should be the goal for a true skirmish game centered on infantry.

If instead, the goal is to center the new "skirmish" game around 16-30ft mecha with 15mm models then I would question why they're going that route as it screws over fans who believed them two years ago when they said 6mm would work just fine and we'd get inter-era play. I'd support them if they decided to break into a truly different focus (infantry instead of big robots) and scale of gaming (28mm skirmish instead of 6mm mass battle) despite the problems with the Macross KS. I would NOT support a move to YET ANOTHER large mech focused game at an incompatible scale to what I've already backed and have yet to receive half of two years later simply because they didn't listen to feedback or consider important back then. YMMV of course. If they switched to a 15mm mecha centric game, I'd simply buy 1/100 Toynami superposeable kits for my 15mm Robotech gaming fix (Macross of course) that would likely be cheaper per game unit, more poseable, prepainted, and transformable.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

If pb sticks to 6mm, then the figs should be mono posed minis.

And there it is folks, the giant elephant in the room that no one is talking about: poseability. The Macross mecha get to be poseable, the rest of us have to make do with fixed pose minis because the scale used will render that impossible. That means any Southern Cross, almost all MOSPEADA, Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles mecha will not be nearly as attractive. People wanted 6mm-scaled models, which was absurd. They should have done the entire line as consisting of single-pieces minis with a few poses, which would have allowed the game to be played within 5-10mins of opening the box. Otherwise, its just screwing the rest of the Robotech franchise, over 2/3rds of which is NOT Macross.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, no they do NOT have to be monoposed. example, Dreampod9's Heavy Gear game. their light and medium gears are about the same size figure as a hovertank, bioroid, or ASC battloid would be in 6mm. and their figures have at minimum 5 parts.. 2 arms, a set of legs, a torso, and a head. plus various accessories. these figures are very posable. AND these models have been available from them since the late 80's, with various sculpt updates for ever increasing detail as the tech advances.

as far as new gen goes, warhammer 40K guard are about the same size as an Alpha or invid commander would be. components are similar. head, arms, torso, set of legs.

in both cases if you have variation on the leg and arm poses, you can mix and match to make a wide array of figure poses.

the effect is the same as the current macross models, only you don't have to assemble the arms, legs, torsos, etc from even smaller parts.

the only monopose figures you'd have are infantry. invid soldiers. cyclones, maybe the invid scout. stuff that is so small that assembly would be impossible. and they are small enough that you can make 3-4 poses for each type and supply lots of each. in effect, what 6mm and 10mm scale miniatures makers have been doing for the better part of 40 years.. you know, like GHQ?

[bielmic]

If pb sticks to 6mm, then the figs should be mono posed minis.

And there it is folks, the giant elephant in the room that no one is talking about: poseability. The Macross mecha get to be poseable, the rest of us have to make do with fixed pose minis because the scale used will render that impossible. That means any Southern Cross, almost all MOSPEADA, Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles mecha will not be nearly as attractive. People wanted 6mm-scaled models, which was absurd. They should have done the entire line as consisting of single-pieces minis with a few poses, which would have allowed the game to be played within 5-10mins of opening the box. Otherwise, its just screwing the rest of the Robotech franchise, over 2/3rds of which is NOT Macross.

If no one is talking about it then it is because it is a pink flying one that you've imagined. You took a single sentence from a single post out of context from the discussion around it on the previous thread. He was responding to a series of posts about 6mm infantry including cyclones, not all SC/NG/ShC mecha. Yes, if they remain at 6mm-10mm then indeed humans in body armor and power armor will almost certainly be one piece (which frankly at that scale and size they SHOULD be) but it is very, very unlikely that they will be monoposed in this day and age. 10-12mm sized infantry made with modern design tools frequently comes in around a half dozen or more poses and even 6mm modern sculpted infantry comes in 3-4 at least. As for all the other mecha you're including in that very wide brush, most of it will be the size of a true scale 25mm figure (like Infinity's that come in multiple poses and pieces) up to 40k infantry that come with even more possibilities. I'm sorry but the sky is NOT falling in relation monopose single piece mecha models other than infantry sized ones regardless of scale.

[ronekiln]

As an avid modeler, I would still trade most of the current posability for fewer pieces to assemble. I backed this for the modeling and for figs for my 20+ year running rpg. And I will likely never even try assembling them. If they had kept their value on ebay I would likely sell them. But their value has collapsed. Which isn't a catastrophe me. But it's still disappointing to see Palladium continue to harm their reputation and this game by refusing to communicate as we keep asking. We want weekly updates that give real world progress. That progress may be no more than files being emailed back and forth. That's ok if it's consistantly communicated which figs are moving or stalled. It doesn't need to be a big eloquent proof read post. It could be two short paragraphs with typos. But it needs to be regular and honest.

All this garbage is decreasing our chances of getting 3rd gen in ANY scale. Get this game back on its feet and start rebuilding the shattered trust of the community and then worry about scale of the next generations.

[Kryptt]

If people want a next gen era skirmish game then I'd say go with 28mm. Just please keep separate from rrt. I've seen what ghq can do with 6mm troops. They do not look like blobs of metal or the back of an ant. What ghq 6mm infantry do look like is fantastic for such tiny minis. Although I am open to a skirmish game at 1/72 scale. How big would a cyclone be at 1/72. If PB did that you could use the 1/72 plastic macross models for the game.

After reading today's update I'm glad Kevin's backpedaling from the 15mm pro comments. Though next weeks poll does have me worried. Many backers think it'll be another rigged gencon vote and PB will make 15mm Cyclones regardless. I don't know we'll see. I was very disappointed there was no hard data on wave two. This whole discussion could be moot if there's no money to make wave two because there is no future in RRT. In my area I've noticed my stores either refuse to carry the game due to so much negativity associated with the game and PB or it's collecting dust and no ones buying because they heard of the harsh modeling barrier to start with.

RRT is a mass combat game. Cyclones have a huge advantage in urban combat because they can hide in buildings and stay out of your enemies LOS. If the scale gets fudged then they lose their advantage. So I'm with Chuck for keeping it ALL 6mm including cyclones. Besides 15mm is to big for a 6mm MASS COMBAT game.

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