Why the latest Robotech Update is NOT a restart...

[bielmic]

The 19 page update is unfortuantely 98% heart and 2% plan for the future despite all the obvious effort put into it. It's been said hundreds of times on the kickstarter comments that sadly Palladium does not monitor so I'll repeat it here in a bigger font to stress the completely missed point...

SHOW, DON'T TELL!!!

NMI, if you really want to help palladium then send them a link to this thread instead of locking/deleting/moving it. If they're really interested in changing the dialog with fans who are not happy whom they're supposedly addressing the update to, they should read this before and not have it pre-emptively swept under the rug.

You want to change the scale? SHOW the pledgers why the change needs to happen with actual pictures of the models that you are using to make the decision next to the current macross ones. Don't just tell us. I actually support that change with the caveat that ALL the new gen models with the scale bump are still visually at a tabletop distance (3-4ft) smaller than macross destroids and valkyries by a bit. There is nothing stopping you from using multiple scales either like 15mm for the most troublesome cyclones whereas the alphas and betas and invid get bumped only to 10mm. You've got the official RRPGT models. You've got the fan made unofficial ones at 6mm. Why didn't you just post a pic of them with a big disclaimer on the bottom about the source? If you had a reason why you couldn't (like HG not allowing posts of fan figs in official RRPGT communication) post that instead to at least indicate that it occurred to you at some point that a picture, like the old adage, is worth a thousand words.

While it is nice that you basically confirmed pledger rumor and innuendo as well as objective problems visable to almost all from two years ago, you have yet to SHOW us anything concrete regarding wave two in 19 pages of updates. Any checklist of various steps necessary for EACH AND EVERY mini to come to market posted in a hand table format that would be UPDATED EACH AND EVERY UPDATE? Updated pics SHOWING the minimal changes you could make for all those hours of work to reduce parts count compared to what was before? None of the above. This update isn't a "restart" of communication but rather just an admittedly heartfelt continuation of prior (inconsistent and infrequent) communication. It doesn't factually and objectively address ANY of the concerns for the future production that pledgers have based on the unacceptable experience of the last two years but just injects new ones. You claim that the Invid production won't affect wave 2 since someone else would be working on that but that is EXACTLY what you said about RRPGT two years ago regarding other RPG output. Do you see how that could feel like a repeat of the past rather than a restart?

If you want to truely "restart" communication with backers, the new openness in confirming openly what most of us have already known is only the first and frankly only a minor one in the grand scheme of things. The most important step is confirming without a doubt that you're willing to provide consistent and continous MEANINGFUL information about the current progress of wave 2 via objective and indisputable data (tables with actual numbers and dates) and not just the vague flowery language and occasional pie in the sky date. I didn't back a Macross kickstarter in 2013 to get Invid figures two years later while 2/3 of my sculpts are as of yet undelivered. You focused on giving us some vague info about the new stuff and NOTHING new and concrete about the much more important and massively delayed existing minis.

TL;DR: Address the current and future product and problems honestly, openly, factually, and consistently FOR SEVERAL MONTHS in a row and I will believe that Palladium AT THAT POINT wants to restart communication. That would be unprecedented for this two year post KS period and a real indication that you're restarting the conversation. This update unfortunately does NOT meet those criteria.

[NMI]

This topic, for now, will not be locked as the original poster was relatively "constructive". This status could change depending on how others comment on this topic.

[Hotrod]

I have no salt in this game; I'm not a backer, but I got the 19-page update in my inbox this morning, too. It's clear that Kevin and his crew care a lot about this IP, this game, and delivering on their promises. From this quasi-outsider perspective, it's clear that Palladium cares a lot about this game line. I haven't seen him pump 19 pages of text into any project that wasn't a book.

It does seem like some pictures or videos of the figures and scale issues he's talking about would make his case for the 15mm scale. Does anyone have some pictures or diagrams that could illustrate the point?

[bielmic]

I have no salt in this game; I'm not a backer, but I got the 19-page update in my inbox this morning, too. It's clear that Kevin and his crew care a lot about this IP, this game, and delivering on their promises. From this quasi-outsider perspective, it's clear that Palladium cares a lot about this game line. I haven't seen him pump 19 pages of text into any project that wasn't a book.

It does seem like some pictures or videos of the figures and scale issues he's talking about would make his case for the 15mm scale. Does anyone have some pictures or diagrams that could illustrate the point?

No one is doubting their good intentions or whether they care about the project. The last part though about delivering on their promises is very open to discussion. They have apologized and promised better communications probably a dozen times during the post-KS years and just go back to repeating their previous pattern of ignoring that promise usually within an update/week or two. They promised backers that we'd get the minis first and it is well publicized that they voluntarily tried to break that promise last year at Gencon. Then there is the two year long series of rolling release dates. Their ability to make good on their promises absolutely is an issue given that we're TWO YEARS post kickstarter funding and we have yet to see MOST of the sculpts that we funded and this mega update gave us nothing in that regard.

This most recent update is another example. While well intentioned and full of heart, it is simply a much longer version of previous apologies with no actual meat to it. There are NOT thousands of kickstarter comments demanding that Palladium recount their decades old history with the Robotech franchise. There are NOT dozens of mostly locked heated threads here on this very forum wondering aloud that Palladium prove their interest in the Robotech franchise or begging for Invid minis. While there are no doubt folks who want to know that stuff, it is not the primary overriding topic of discussion regarding this KS anywhere. What there is plenty of everywhere is a desire for concrete and objective information regarding the progress of Wave 2 and we got NONE of that in the 19 pages. The only info we got was a potential 2015 date that they already stated during Adepticon (both there in person and during a podcast interview with Kevin Siembieda). That is a perfect example of completely missing the point with the mega update that was supposed to satisfy the unhappy backers. Addressing the elphant in the room instead of patting backers on the proverbial head and promising that everything will be alright is, to borrow the latest update's title, DOING ROBOTECH RPG TACTICS RIGHT. The info they gave us regarding civilian accessory vehicles, Invid, and dice bags is the icing on the non-existent wave 2 cake. Why do I need Invid to fight my Zentraedi when I don't even have half the zentraedi sculpts that I pledged for two years ago? It's missing the forest for the trees regardless of the good intentions.

[Forar]

And to head off a potential line of counterpoints; yes, it is entirely possible for collections of people/companies to work on multiple things at the same time.

But PB has very much loaded down their plate. They're allegedly working on Wave Two, but we haven't seen evidence of that in 3 months. There's this GHQ collaboration, plus new books (RRT and RPG alike), future series, a variety of 'swag' items recently released, etc. It's hard to feel that RRT is getting their utmost attention when evidence is scarce to show something tangible for all those incredibly long days/weeks, and piling up that focus is being diverted to other avenues.

*sigh*

Look, if this update had included another dozen sprue breakdowns, and perhaps some 3D printed test pieces fitted together, it'd be one thing. If they talked about how many figures were done (actually Done done, as in 'we can begin cutting molds this very second, DONE), that'd be swell.

An essay on the history of Palladium and Robotech and Kickstarter is not what anyone (that I'm aware of) was looking for in this update.

We just want to know what has been happening, because they've stopped telling us anything.

And to head off another problematic point; few sensible/reasonable people are asking for dates. They are quite understandably shy on dates. But showcasing progress doesn't have to do a thing with dates. Showing a test sprue of an Armoured Battloid doesn't need to breathe the word date, it just shows off some fruits of their untold hours of labour, and still without using dates, helps one feel that there is in fact a light at the end of the tunnel.

[Kryptt]

It's PB's continued avoidance that's leading many people not just backers to think PB doesn't have the funds to finish wave two. The current update where ND is thrown under the bus over and over would have been more helpful last year, except we already knew most of that info. The point of my ranting is 19 pages later we still don't know what the status of wave two is, minus the 'we hope it's out by the end of 2015'.

[bielmic]

*sigh*

Look, if this update had included another dozen sprue breakdowns, and perhaps some 3D printed test pieces fitted together, it'd be one thing. If they talked about how many figures were done (actually Done done, as in 'we can begin cutting molds this very second, DONE), that'd be swell.

An essay on the history of Palladium and Robotech and Kickstarter is not what anyone (that I'm aware of) was looking for in this update.

We just want to know what has been happening, because they've stopped telling us anything.

I agree completely. If they had done that somewhere in the 19 pages of history lessons and trying to sell us accessories for things they have yet to make, this thread would not exist. Instead, the treat that is supposed to please disgruntled fans is to give us first dibs on buying deluxe floor mats for the 2013 model car that they will be lucky to delivery by 2015. There was obviously a lot of work put into that update but sadly no one apparently bothered to research what *SHOULD* have gone into it. After 3 months of silence on wave 2, this would have been a good opportunity to really come clean and start fresh in order to rebuild the trust that they have unfortunately squandered since May 2013. Palladium needs to PROVE that they're worthy of trust going forward and that they actually HAVE changed from the company that made the many mistakes of the past two years. Unfortunately, a vague promise to do better with nothing to back it up (no matter how heartfelt or lengthy) is no better than the dozen or so ones we've already gotten that were soon broken.

[agent_orange]

I have to agree as far as updating the kickstarter I had to wade though a load of unrelated information to find the paragraph that said: Maybe this year but who knows

what people have been clamoring for is progress reports on the Kickstarter, give a simple table listing each sculpt and where it is in the process then update this when they do a KS update. then people can SEE progress being made and it doesn't require giving dates that will invariably be missed.

Sure it's nice to see the con exclusives being offered but personally I'm not buying any of them as I'm still waiting to find out what happened to the stuff that we funded first. I know i've seen a number of people sharing this opinion too. If i knew progress was being made at all then I might feel differently but right now I know nothing.

[Kryptt]

At the same time it may not be worth buying if PB decides to shift the scale to 15mm. Why continue to build 6mm models that will be incompatible when the next era comes out.

[bielmic]

If they decide to abandon the current scale completely with no finesse and mess up all the macross models compatibility with future eras, I suspect that will indeed alienate plenty of folks who pledged. I posted in the other thread about using a sliding scale increase instead based on what is NEEDED for each mini instead of just applying the same 250% scale increase to everything.

[Jerell]

The thing is I like the 6mm Macross, I don't like cyclones and Southern Cross mecha at 6mm. That's my real issue, I like the modeling and painting (and occasionally customizing/converting) part of the hobby. I realize I am but one person, however, I am of the opinion an increase in scale for the next two eras would be a good thing. For me a sliding scale would be fine or an across the board increase, I just want the next two eras bigger than 6mm. That said I can certainly understand the other side of the issue for keeping scale. I wouldn't mind mixing scales on the same game table, though I can definitely imagine it would bother a lot of people.

I wonder if having a bigger scale for us painting/detail oriented types would be manageable while having low part, smaller size/low detail or maybe single cast 6mm pieces for the purist one scale across all eras war gamers? I think we have an issue where either one half or the other is not going to be terribly happy.

[CaptKaruthors]

Yeah, after reading the update...I was rather disappointed by the lack of information regarding wave 2. My suggestion is to: instead of waiting to release it all as "wave 2"...release what you have completed. So for example, the Lancers and Gnerls that looked 80% completed 3 months ago are pretty much ready to be made...then make them. I'd rather have a slow drip of "wave 2" product rather than wait 9 more months for all of it. This also gets you sales now...while interest is high...vs. later when people are dumping the game for lack of models in the range. I'd also consider using GHQ in the future if it means faster turnaround times. I'd rather have my models be in pewter...but get into my hands faster...rather than wait for China to get their crap together with plastics. Which is why I'm looking forward to the GenCon exclusives...it gets me a playable bretaii and grell very quickly. There is no reason to make those models plastic anyways as they are both unique characters. If getting them in metal is a faster solution for character models like that...I'll take it. I just want the game pieces. As a long time wargamer...I want the pieces to use. I don't necessarily care what material they are made from. All the zentraedi infantry could have been done by now if they were done in pewter.

[CaptKaruthors]

I am also not opposed to the increase of scale for the later generations. I think if the scale shift is modest enough 10mm - 15mm then all the playing pieces can exist in the game. Scale is relative in the game anyways as I see lots of people using drop zone commander buildings which aren't 6mm scale but 10mm scale. The gaming pieces are representative anyways and the slight increase shouldn't affect game play that much.

[bielmic]

As I said in the other thread, I don't think that a blanket one size fits all rescaling for everything after macross is the best possible solution but rather a sliding scale based on *EACH* model should be used. If there absolutely had to be a single all encompassing rescale, I'd say 10mm would be the lesser of two evils. 15mm has hovertanks towering over valkyries and alphas looking down at battlepods. That to me is going from the frying pan into the fire. Of course, this was ALL MENTIONED prior to the kickstarter funding and ignored because the feedback didn't unfortunately come from the right pool of preselected people.

[Spinachcat]

As a Warmaster player (Warhammer 6mm fantasy), the interesting look on the battlefield were the larger figs among the small ones. In Epic (40k 6mm), the big deal is bringing Titans, convoys of tanks and siege engines onto the battlefield which dwarf the powered armor space marines. The problem with Invid Invasion is that story is much more about skirmishes and individual heroes, not massed troop & vehicle combats.

Also, one of the main concepts of the RTT is to sell minis to be used in the RPG. 6mm figs aren't useful for RPG scenarios.

It sounds like RTT needs both 6mm models to supposedly appeal to the backers who claim they will buy them, and 15mm or larger to be useful for Robotech RPG fans and collectors who want a model on the shelf.

[Spinachcat]

It's also important to note that nobody paid for other eras in the Kickstarter. The KS was just what the KS offered, aka Wave 1 and Wave 2. If RTT isn't profitable enough in stores, then PB has no obligation to continue with the line. They must sell what sells.

Personally, going with 6mm and 1/285th was a mistake from the start. The only minis that needed that scale were those to be sold to the Battletech fans. The RTT should have been at least 10mm scale which would have made Veritechs and Destroids nice and big for shelves, RPG play and wargaming with a WOW factor on the table.

The problem with scale is 6mm will (1) please some wargamers, (2) displease other wargamers, (3) displease most people looking to use RTT in their RPG play and (4) displease most people looking for cool models for their shelf. The real question is which group from 1 to 4 is the largest group of paying customers.

We don't know who that may be. We could guess and give our opinions, but we don't know. PB *might* be able to figure that out through extensive polling. Maybe.

But the scale conversation really isn't important. Wave 2 needs to arrive and the fanbase needs to expand via a vibrant store tourney system happening around the globe.

[bielmic]

It's also important to note that nobody paid for other eras in the Kickstarter. The KS was just what the KS offered, aka Wave 1 and Wave 2. If RTT isn't profitable enough in stores, then PB has no obligation to continue with the line.

It is also equally important to note that Kevin Siembieda advertised the RRPGT game as having a consistent scale throughout all three eras so that inter-era gameplay could occur. It is also VERY important to note that this exact same issue was brought up two years ago by potential backers as well as 3 years ago by the miniature company that initially approached them for Robotech and in both cases the feedback was ignored by Palladium. Some folks pledged at their level in part because of that consistent scale statement. It is important to note that because this project has a history of largely negatively received unilateral changes, amendments, and modifications to the kickstarter agreement that Palladium made individually with each of the 5,000+ backers. Palladium has frequently felt no obligation to consult backers on alot of those changes and simply decided on their own for their own intersts to modify 5,000+ backer agreements. Taking away the utility of being able to use your minis with other appropriately scaled minis from other eras is in direct conflict with what was advertised and will certainly not help the perception that the company does whatever they want when they want with little input from the community (beyond their self-selected fan friends). I'm glad they posted another update with the information that should have been in the first one because that mega update was worded frankly as if the decision was already made and the discussion on it was just lip service. Hopefully NEXT TIME they'll simply publicly discuss issues BEFORE they get so far down the line instead of needing to backtrack because their feedback pool didn't really provide anything constructive.

I agree that they shouldn't just blindly keep to 6mm but I also feel that they shouldn't just blindly jump into 15mm as well which is what I feel they are now doing. There is a comfortable middle ground that doesn't screw over macross minis as a whole or the selection of important but tiny SC/NG mecha either. YMMV.

[MurderCityDisciple]

I wish they wouldn't have gone cheap. They should've gone the X-wing route with the pre-painted, ready to go minis. I mean they had enough cash probably, these mini-models (which is what they are) are too frikken tiny and even with the slickest paint job aren't that much better than an X-wing fig.

Think of all the fun folks could have right out of the box? I wanna play not paint.

There is zero percent chance that I'd ever spend a dime on RRT in it's current form.

Now, this "Hey let's turn this bus around right now" and change scale, Wow!

[Spinachcat]

It is also equally important to note that Kevin Siembieda advertised the RRPGT game as having a consistent scale throughout all three eras so that inter-era gameplay could occur.

I agree with you that is how the KS was advertised and I agree with you backers discussed these and many other problems a long time ago (I was one of the noisy ones too), but the KS was not offering to buy a game line. It was to buy Wave 1 and Wave 2...with the hope the line would continue if the game became popular. Lots of hopeful games plan on sequels and expansions, but plenty of Kickstarters never get beyond the core box which is what was promised.

There is a comfortable middle ground that doesn't screw over macross minis as a whole or the selection of important but tiny SC/NG mecha either.

Maybe you are right, but I don't see a middle ground between the needs of RPGers, needs of non-painting casual gamers, needs of collectors who want bling on the shelf and the needs of 6mm wargamers...and nobody knows which group is the dominant group of actual customers who will pay actual money in the far future.

As I've mentioned before, I've got years of background in 6mm wargaming and because of that I know the concerns AND the joys of 6mm. It's awesome to blow apart sixty troops in one attack instead of just whacking one mech! It's cool to move about tiny tanks to support the "big" artillery. It's even cooler to field a dozen Chaos spawn instead of just one and launch spells from cabals of tiny wizards. I always loved how my Undead dragon towered over the field. However, it's no mistake why the most popular minis games aren't 6mm. The 6mm isn't snazzy compared to 28mm.

Think of all the fun folks could have right out of the box? I wanna play not paint.

There is zero percent chance that I'd ever spend a dime on RRT in it's current form.

And this is exactly the problem with the Kickstarter!

Wargamers who enjoy modelling, modding and painting want detailed bits to customize...
Casual gamers want to open a box and rock...
Collectors want a beautiful toy for the shelf...

These are not easy, and perhaps not possible, compatible goals.

[Jerell]

They should've gone the X-wing route with the pre-painted, ready to go minis. I mean they had enough cash probably, these mini-models (which is what they are) are too frikken tiny and even with the slickest paint job aren't that much better than an X-wing fig.

Think of all the fun folks could have right out of the box? I wanna play not paint.

I have the exact opposite feeling on this. Playing is fun, but the painting and seeing the finished product, and seeing what other people do with it is what I find most interesting. To each their own.

That said I've seen paint schemes on RRT minis that are far better than any pre-painted mini out I've yet seen.

[wilycoyote]

I certainly agree with the main thrust of the thread, that the uppdate really was a glaring missed opportunity to start the rocky path to getting onside with us backers.

Personally the debate over scale change is just as damaging, it seems to be taking away focus on what is happenning with wave 2. let's face it the other eras are simply years away as it stands. Invids are mentioned in Waynes update but I could only see them as perhaps as a limited GHQ run if it was to be this year, but then we need new rules to accomodate them, so again dilutes the effort.

I believe that while avoiding dates , PB have to now show the road map of how they are planning to proceed. List the W2 models, show the progress , not started through tp approved complete. If you are looking to rewrite post the PDF of the original rules asap and then post open betas of proposed chnages. A strong community is your best (and cheapest/') source of playtester - a wider audience will generate better, more playable options.

Above all, concentrate on the issues and listen/read what people are saying (admittedly on the KS forums you might need to add a filter at times to find anything but insults) and then it is really simple. Address these worries, do not hide, do not patronise, just be honest. You might be surprised that many people will then show you some support where none was there before.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Wily yeah....again, Palladium is putting the cart before the horse.

Stay on target guys. They've got an out of control dumpster fire on their hands and they are looking past the current mess and are already planning the next potential fiasco.

[bielmic]

Wily yeah....again, Palladium is putting the cart before the horse.

Stay on target guys. They've got an out of control dumpster fire on their hands and they are looking past the current mess and are already planning the next potential fiasco.

It is a distraction but in a way I'm glad it is happening now. Don't get me wrong as I still think that the lack of ANY meaningful new wave 2 information in the 19 page double update was an incredibly bad idea. Even though this exact issue was brought up years ago by fans (and unfortunately ignored) during the planning stages, it still isn't too late to make an informed decision ironically because the Macross KS is so massively delayed. I don't have any insider knowledge but since Palladium is reluctant to give us even wave 2 info I really doubt that any work beyond wave 2 plastics has been done beyond some initial conceptual planning meetings. It's not too late to avoid the next episode of unnecessary drama like the gencon vote, the wave split, the multiyear delays, and excluding backers from the initial gencon promos. Wave 2, regardless of what we think, is too far down the pipeline for us to give any meaningful feedback. That isn't the case with this potentially disastrous scale change. That doesn't absolve palladium in any way from keeping us informed about what we already pledged for years ago.

[Forar]

They should've gone the X-wing route with the pre-painted, ready to go minis. I mean they had enough cash probably, these mini-models (which is what they are) are too frikken tiny and even with the slickest paint job aren't that much better than an X-wing fig.

Think of all the fun folks could have right out of the box? I wanna play not paint.

I have the exact opposite feeling on this. Playing is fun, but the painting and seeing the finished product, and seeing what other people do with it is what I find most interesting. To each their own.

That said I've seen paint schemes on RRT minis that are far better than any pre-painted mini out I've yet seen.

It need not be an 'either/or' situation.

There is a small but growing number of people who are happily repainting X-Wing minis, and I've seen examples that far outstrip the originals.

It's purely academic of course, but worth noting that it's not necessarily a binary choice.

[MurderCityDisciple]

They should've gone the X-wing route with the pre-painted, ready to go minis. I mean they had enough cash probably, these mini-models (which is what they are) are too frikken tiny and even with the slickest paint job aren't that much better than an X-wing fig.

Think of all the fun folks could have right out of the box? I wanna play not paint.

I have the exact opposite feeling on this. Playing is fun, but the painting and seeing the finished product, and seeing what other people do with it is what I find most interesting. To each their own.

That said I've seen paint schemes on RRT minis that are far better than any pre-painted mini out I've yet seen.

To each his own.
But I wanna play right away. If Robotech RRT was good right out of the box, I would've backed it and integrated it into my Robotech RPG games.

I'm a very busy person, the learning curve and time needed to get this game up and running would in my case would be impossible. I have a lot of disposable income, but not a lot of time.

Yeah there are folks who like to work in the garage and restore cars, the vast majority just wanna put a key in it and drive away.

How many people would play monopoly or Star Wars action figures, if you had to paint and assemble them and they were comprised of 14 fiddley parts?

[MurderCityDisciple]

Wily yeah....again, Palladium is putting the cart before the horse.

Stay on target guys. They've got an out of control dumpster fire on their hands and they are looking past the current mess and are already planning the next potential fiasco.

It is a distraction but in a way I'm glad it is happening now. Don't get me wrong as I still think that the lack of ANY meaningful new wave 2 information in the 19 page double update was an incredibly bad idea. Even though this exact issue was brought up years ago by fans (and unfortunately ignored) during the planning stages, it still isn't too late to make an informed decision ironically because the Macross KS is so massively delayed. I don't have any insider knowledge but since Palladium is reluctant to give us even wave 2 info I really doubt that any work beyond wave 2 plastics has been done beyond some initial conceptual planning meetings. It's not too late to avoid the next episode of unnecessary drama like the gencon vote, the wave split, the multiyear delays, and excluding backers from the initial gencon promos. Wave 2, regardless of what we think, is too far down the pipeline for us to give any meaningful feedback. That isn't the case with this potentially disastrous scale change. That doesn't absolve palladium in any way from keeping us informed about what we already pledged for years ago.

Until they can show us any sign of progress...all this talk is just talk...hot air, blather.

Kind of like that guy who talks about all this awesome stuff he's gonna do, gonna buy, his future girlfriends (usually Asian bikini models) and then describes in minute details, his perfect fantasy life, when in reality he has no job, no car, is a 35 year old virgin and lives in his Gramma's basement. It's just delusional.

Show don't Say....that's what needs doing.

[Spinachcat]

I'm a very busy person, the learning curve and time needed to get this game up and running would in my case would be impossible. I have a lot of disposable income, but not a lot of time.

I don't model or paint either. Many FLGS have ads posted by local minis painters who do a great job for a reasonable price. I've handed a box of bits over, waited 3 months and got beautiful results for a small investment (between $3 to $10 per mini, depends on complexity). If you did want to get into RTT, that's how I would recommend it.

[LtPebbles]

The discussion about scale can happen at the same time we find out what is going on with Wave 2. I've heard all sorts of disquieting rumors about how PB doesn't have enough money to produce Wave 2. I'm more concerned about that than how big a Cyclone will be next to a Veritech.

I certainly appreciate the attempt to communicate from PB to us backers and RRT fans. I just wish it was more constructive.

[MurderCityDisciple]

The discussion about scale can happen at the same time we find out what is going on with Wave 2. I've heard all sorts of disquieting rumors about how PB doesn't have enough money to produce Wave 2. I'm more concerned about that than how big a Cyclone will be next to a Veritech.
.

Well if they don't have any money...your concern about the cyclone's relative size will be a moot point. No money, no cyclone of any size.

[zyanitevp]

He may kill me for posting this, but here is a reasoned breakdown of the weekly update- point by point. This is not me.

I know a number of people here have varying opinions of me ranging from defender, to hater, to reasonable guy. I suppose they are all true. I have thought quite a bit on the past three updates posted by Palladium now that my initial knee jerk angry reaction and feelings have subsided some and I wanted to share my thoughts since I am someone that has been back forth on the myriad of topics that can be debate when it comes to RRT and Palladium.

June 6th Update Part One

To me THIS is the sort of information we want to show transparency. To show they are communicating and keeping us INFORMED. The opposite of what they have been doing to date.

Furthermore, this is information we should have been told 18-24 months ago, not now.

We did not need a history lesson on who Palladium is. We really didn't. Any idiot that wanted to know just had to go to you website to find out.

Now, we can't turn back time unfortunately to make this happen 2 years ago.

What I get from the update in regards to their contract with ND is this: Kevin was naive. He is used to doing business on a handshake. That doesn't excuse him for this happening, far from it, and frankly he should fire whatever lawyer and firm he has as his representation for such gross incompetence in vetting the contract, but it does give an idea of how he does business. He isn't a businessman. Most of us would have the contract vetted seven ways form Sunday before ever reading it ourselves as that is SOP in business these days. That said, it WAS naivete that caused this by and large to me.

Am I happy it took THIS DAMN LONG to find this out? HELLS no!

Is there anything we can do about it? Nope, not a damn thing. Can't turn back time.

If, and this is a BIG IF, this is ANY indication that perhaps we will actually get some form of better transparency and communication, then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt...temporarily. They have to prove it to keep that benefit of the doubt.

However...Wayne or whoever else will be in place now that Jeff Burke is in fact gone (and he IS gone, not away or anything else, and not coming back), they NEED to, not maybe or sort of but need to, engage backers in the KS comments and KS update comments. However that means the backers need to be cool headed. Screaming obscenties at them (using obscenities is one thing screaming them incessantly is quite another), or as one person has done, accosting them on their personal Facebook pages, is unacceptable behaviour for anyone who is an adult.

If we can get them to engage us, and we can in turn engage them in constructive discussion....isn't that what is best in the end?

June 6th Update Part Two

Once Wave Two is ready to go, I do hope what they learned is put to good use. I want my stuff....we all do.

Scale

6mm. KEEP IT THAT WAY. People do not want tiny cyclones that's just too bad. This is a tactical wargame using armies not 3-4 man units to do guerilla warfare. Maybe once this is done a "skirmish level" game could be made at 15mm scale but not before. 10mm scale increases the size of 6mm nits by x1.67 while 15mm increases them by x2.5.

I have zero interest in that. I have seen what WH40K Epic scale looks like at 6mm and looks just fine. I have seen GHQs 6mm infantry and they look pretty damn good too.

Stick to 6mm.

Wave Two

*sigh* Ok so....I want an actual update, and I am talking to someone who may be able to convince them to shed some light on that prospect...

In the meantime...it is very possible that we don't have any info on Wave Two because there is no info beyond the models we were shown back n February. I don't know that for sure but it's a possibility we need to may be realize and accept for the time being.

Again it's something we have no control over and no amount of incessant cussing or otherwise will get them to let us know what's going on any faster.

Am I happy about it? Not a bloody chance.

Can I try to do anything about it? I will and am trying to to find out my own way. I'll pass along whatever I can find out.

Cool stuff coming our way

Online support - I like this. I really do. It should have been done a long time ago. It will let people get the game and try it out with the Paper minis to see if they in fact want to buy the full box game.

Additional Factions, Mecha Cards, Force Cards, Charts etc - Not for nothing but priority really needs to be put on this stuff. Do not hope to devote more time. Set deadlines, stick to them, get stuff done and out. Just do it. If the people working on it can;t get it done, get someone else. You cannot run this like some garage business with buddies. Things need to GET DONE. That aside I do like the fact you are even looking to do this and put it out for free no less. It will add depth and more variety to the game.

Convention exclusives and GHQ - I have to say I am quite happy they are going with a very reputable and high quality company like GHQ for these. I have faith GHQ can make these and that they will very good. I am going to break down and buy one of each and I will likely look to buy some of the conventional vehicles to A ) decorate the table when they are not in use for combat and B ) flush out combat units for the reconstruction era of Macross Saga. I already have some of GHQs stuff and let me tell you it is highly detailed for such a small size.

Now....just a thought but if the speculation of the lack of funds is why there is such dragging on Wave Two, then I see this as their way to increase those funds..thus making Wave Two more of a reality than the ppe dream many here and elsewhere are thinking it may be. We saw the numbers they gave and how inflated everything was on Wave One so ask yourselves....would you rather NOT see Wave Two and thus Palladium suffer for it further or would you rather get some things, that are pretty useful for RRT and not overly high in pricing, that are only available to the backers of this Kickstarter, in order to help make sure Wave Two becomes a reality and we get it delivered?

As much as I hate to say it, I'll buy in if it means I can help make sure I get my Wave Two stuff.

What else can we expect

Well I covered the communication stuff up in my thoughts on Part one....so I will leave it at that.

June 8 Update Scales

I am vehemently opposed to changing the scale of game. 6mm is why I bought in. Not only that you essentially make it nigh impossible to do cross era combat which IS a thing whether it is seen in the series or not, not to mention invalidating how some rules would work as well as the fact everyone here has invested significantly in some way shape or form n 6mm scale terrain and table pieces.

You want to offer a single display 15 or 28mm piece in the box, fine, but no way no how will I support a change of scale for the game.

you want to maybe look at doing a "skirmish level" game that only uses 4 or 5 pieces per side in a battle, fine, but do that AFTER we finish RRT of all three eras.

Closing

I have been very disappointed over all in this whole campaign and project. I also have done everything I can do, much like Mike has, to keep this game relevant as best I can be it the proboard, the wiki, trying to arrange demos, or giving feedback and suggestions on new things we can do until official things are done. I just want this game to survive this and move on to be at least here, alive and ongoing.

What else can we do in the meantime but try anyway right?

[glitterboy2098]

i don't think money is the concern.. what i took from their history lesson about wave 1 is more that they are concerned about making sure that wave 2 is better managed.. which may include money (one would presume that all the snags and problems they had in wave1 meant higher costs along the way) but i think they mainly just want to avoid jumping the gun again and making more promises about delivery timeframe and quality they might miss, the way they did in wave1.

ultimately its the old problem for PB.. if they're open and start trying to keep everyone in the loop.. they get attacked when the inevitable snags and problems hit and those claims turn out wrong. but if they don't constantly inform everyone of what is going on.. they get attacked for not sharing info.

[bielmic]

ultimately its the old problem for PB.. if they're open and start trying to keep everyone in the loop.. they get attacked when the inevitable snags and problems hit and those claims turn out wrong. but if they don't constantly inform everyone of what is going on.. they get attacked for not sharing info.

I don't think that is entirely accurate. They frequently get hammered when they hit entirely evitable snags and problems that they were warned about. For instance, the current scale issue that we both commented on is a good example. It WAS discussed by backers as well as by the company who first approached them with the idea for minis but was dismissed... until now when it could negatively affect backers. The discussion being had now was had two years ago publicly absent palladium's involvement because they didn't feel like getting involved. For good reasons, they decided on 6mm but apparently and very strangely didn't consider the ramifications of that beyond Macross despite being warned about it both directly and indirectly. There have been alot of issues like that along with a lack of real transparency beyond just being patted on the collective heads and told that things will be alright... right up until they're definitely not alright and they need to make emergency course corrections to backers' detriment (and frankly their own due to loss of good will). When the company puts out a completely unrealistic delivery date and fails to meet it (like they've done with 3 of the past 3 crowdfunding endeavors as well as almost every RPG book published for years), the take home lesson shouldn't be to NOT publish dates at all but to get BETTER at making those dates both realistic and meeting them.

Are there folks that will relentlessly criticize them regardless of what they do? Absolutely, just like there are folks that will praise them incessantly regardless of what they do. The key is to separate out the wheat from the chaff from BOTH of those extremes and focus on what is important for the (largely silent) middle. I really don't think palladium has been successful over the years at doing that as they tend to drone out the critics and exclusively poll the fan(atic)s and don't seem to realize that middle exists. I'm hoping that this "restarting" of the conversation with backers changes that for the long term beyond just an update/month or two as has been the case multiple times in THIS kickstarter with previous short lived apologies.

[ronekiln]

I just realized that if I hadn't sold all my Epic 40k stuff years ago, I could have home brewed crossover games. Cyclones vs space marines.

Sigh.

The lack of honest consistent communication is tearing this product apart ten times more than late shipping dates. The failure to get professionals capable of designing quality GAMING figurines likely even more damaging.

I'm a modeler. I was very stoked to be able to build the destroid squad my 20+ year rpg campaign has focused on. I couldn't wait to finally unleash hordes of battle pod figurines on my players. But these models are ridiculous. I'll probably never build them. I would happily trade some detail for easier builds. I have plastic destroids that came asembled and painted from the 90s from the exosquad line that are probably superior from a wargame point than these overly complicated and fragile models.

The refusal to communicate as we ask, and the fury this is exacerbating in the community is not helping me overcome my disappointment in these models.

[eliakon]

i don't think money is the concern.. what i took from their history lesson about wave 1 is more that they are concerned about making sure that wave 2 is better managed.. which may include money (one would presume that all the snags and problems they had in wave1 meant higher costs along the way) but i think they mainly just want to avoid jumping the gun again and making more promises about delivery timeframe and quality they might miss, the way they did in wave1.

ultimately its the old problem for PB.. if they're open and start trying to keep everyone in the loop.. they get attacked when the inevitable snags and problems hit and those claims turn out wrong. but if they don't constantly inform everyone of what is going on.. they get attacked for not sharing info.

So the take away here is....
Haters gonna hate.....

Warning: Trolling/Flamebaiting - Like it or not, there are those with legitimate issues. Dismissing them as haters does not hep Palladium resolve those issues.

[wilycoyote]

Sadly in some cases that is exactly what is and willl happens, some people are going to hate every decsion PB make in regard to RTT from now on. However, there are others who will show nothing but praise. The real peolple consider may be those somewhere in the middle.

My view remains that the scale debate is at best a big distraction from the key question, where is wave 2 - at worst it mufght be seen as a stalling tactic aimed at buying time. talk of Invids in 2015 and later eras, is fine as a topic here, but as a key update that everyone has waited on for months? This is not helped by Kevin saying it is 6mm all the way, but......Note in the latest update he talks about the backers, well backer interest is irrelevant after wave 2 is delivered unless they want to buy or pledge for new product. This is simply adding to the smokescreen.

Plain and simple communication is a must but we see that yet again PB are dodging the real issues that are causing so much angst. Where is Wave 2 as is looks more and more likely we are going to get into 2016 before it arrives

Oh - what ever happenned to the resin pieces surely these are a seaparate production process,so after nearly two years where are they?

[Forar]

So the take away here is....
Haters gonna hate.....

Um, that's a strange reading of that info.

A) if the outcome is always going to be 'getting attacked', then hording info is counterproductive. Those dozens (or even hundreds) of 'haters' causing not only strife but harming the experience for those thousands of other backers means the 'haters' are getting to set the tone and pace of discourse. It's letting them win, as it were.

B) Palladium said up front that they'd keep us in the loop. They've been in business longer than many of their fans have been alive. Surely they've got thick enough skin to handle some 'nerd rage' and legit frustration.

C) As many have pointed out, it is often unreasonable to be 'angry about plastic toys'. It is not, imo, unreasonable to be angry about giving someone hundreds of dollars and receiving essentially silence for over 3 months (aside from 'omg so much info to share, soooooon!') followed by this info dump about the past and the future (and the scale discussion, while eventually important, is essentially a flight of fancy at best, and a red herring/misdirection at worst). Plainly ignoring what most backers I've seen have requested; info on the present. What figures are 100% Capital D Done? Any molds cut? 3D printed pieces assembled? Test sprues punched?

If we're to believe that there is a chance in hell of them delivering by the end of the year, there should be ample material to showcase for us.

And if not, then the 'coming soon!' factor is just another misdirect to put people off for another half year. Even the 'I'm told not to give dates, but hopefully December, and maybe sooner' part of their statements is almost verbatim what we were told over 2 years ago when the campaign first ended.

Which funnily, is the exact opposite of heartening.

I've been reading and posting on this topic for nearly 2.5 years. Vocal minority as the unpleasable jerks are, there is generally interest, appreciation, and constructive criticism given when they share actual info with us. "Spartangate" was a mess, but they DID manage to improve the model. Gencon Max/Miriya was a mess, and yet was it really so hard to give backers the choice? And lo, this year they did!

For every clusterf...shenanigans, they seem to have learned something.

But ongoing silence is killing their ability to regain any semblance of the benefit of the doubt.

[PATACK]

Have I mentioned why I am SUPER happy that I missed the Kickstarter, but have been able to pick up all the Wave 1 stuff at a great discount at online sellers?

[wilycoyote]

I hardly think that smug remark was very tactful.....

Anyway having picked up a box (or two) what is your opinion on the game and models - a good easy starter to get into? Perhaps you now see why there has been a lot of debate going on, about this and is future?

[PATACK]

haha - trust me, my smug remark was fueled by a level of disappointment with RRT.

Models : I 100% agree that they are overly complex if this was intended to be a "game". If it was meant to be a box full of pieces for a modeler to assemble and gaze in wonder at - they hit the mark. While I got into a good assembly mode and knocked them out quickly, I would not want to do it again (looking at you Wave 2), and am pretty sure a casual gamer would avoid the game (there are several in my local area who looked it over and said "no way"). That said - they sure look nice when assembled and painted.

As a game. You will never convince me that this game went thru a full test and development process. And on top of that, I'm just as convinced that the compete, final rule set was not what most folks tested the game with. I am pretty sure lots of testing was done by word of mouth (i.e. a few gamers around the table with things explained to them in a manner that allowed some basic move and shoot, but never tested out "the system" as a whole) and many of those folks did not play multiple times. There are just too many oversights that a consistent group of game savvy players would have found and asked questions about.

I've played about 16 times now and have had fun with the last 8-10 plays where house rules have been used on a regular basis. The first 8 or so plays used the rules as written to try and grasp them, but it resulted in lots of wasted time, multiple interpretations of intent vs rule, and a game that did not resemble a quick, lethal skirmish game.

The debate. I've been following it and agree with what most players are saying. I am clearly on board with Wave 2 MUST be the same scale as Wave 1. After that, I could honestly care less as the KS as I understand was for Wave 1 and Wave 2 and that is all I am interested in. Even if the series goes farther, I'm unlikely to buy in after this experience.

[wilycoyote]

Thanks for sharing Patack,

Agree the rules are a bit rough in places and do not seem to have been written with tabletop gaming in mind. The layout is haphazrd and key rules are not grouped together, so it was interesting to watch the You Tube video "Robotech basics" where even the PB demonstrator stumbled and got fundemental things wrong.

I have been slowly been getting stuff painted so our games have gotten larger and are still enjoyable but the lack of choice is starting to make things stale - especially for the Zents.

I am not a fan of the Con exclusives or the scale debate (why now?) and would rather get firm update on W2 progress

[PATACK]

Haha - those Con exclusives / GHQ offers seem like a mix of a distraction play and a quick cash move (likely to fund Wave 2?). And in a practical sense - a T55 vs a mecha??? I hope that T55 has a super duper cannon upgrade otherwise I'm not seeing the point of putting them on the table.

Good luck getting your stuff painted up! I think I've got 600+ points of UEDF and 600+ points of Zents assembled and painted. Found that 300 points on a 4 x 4 table is pretty awesome.

[Forar]

Haha - those Con exclusives / GHQ offers seem like a mix of a distraction play and a quick cash move (likely to fund Wave 2?).

I sure hope not.

It seems questionably realistic to fund molds, materials, and shipping costs that must add up to the hundreds of thousands of dollars, $5-10 at a time (accounting for the fact that those $10-22 GHQ kits, LE figures, and whatnot aren't pure profit, especially with 2 companies getting a cut).

Unless they're moving tens or hundreds of thousands of units, I have a hard time believing it'd be more than a drop in the bucket. They've expressed several times just how expensive production/shipping stuff is. I suppose RRT could be flying out of their warehouse to help fund costs as well, but that seems like something PB would be crowing from the rooftops if it were happening.

So, yeah, it'd be nice if they dropped a giant info bomb for wave two soon, but I suspect that's a ways off.

And why it's a ways off is leading to some rather dark speculation.

[Kryptt]

At this years Gencon they might be able to make some extra change with the core set and add ons'. Just like with GHQ minis I doubt it would be enough to finish wave two if PB really is low on funds. If wave two still isn't ready by the end of this year and those backers do force Kevin's hand via legal means we might get a look where that money went and how much producing this game really cost. Personally I hope it doesn't come to that. I'd rather have my wave two and resin bonus figures. And so things don't get boring, now I'm looking forward to invid and SC minis in 6mm.

[bielmic]

Another weekly update goes out and another week goes by without any real news on the most requested FOR MONTHS item that backers want to talk about. If we don't get any news on it via this week's kickstarter update, that restart of the conversation to give backers what they want talked about at length in the 19 page history lesson update will have officially turned into the same old record skipping back a few beats unfortunately instead of a real restart that involves change and listening. The results of the scale question are pretty clear in that the a simple majority (and roughly double that of the next category) of voters want to continue 6mm figs by a clear margin. That voluntary distraction should be completely resolved this week (assuming Palladium doesn't start counting non-votes in whatever category suits them best again) but if wave 2 is mentioned at all I fear that we'll just start getting the "we're so busy because of gencon" excuses as to why they can't give us what folks have been asking for since late February. Four months is more than enough time for a proper and full 19 page wave 2 exclusive update to be assembled, organized, and published.

[wilycoyote]

Agreed it is disappointing that despite being told in the last KS updat ethat we would be getting some news on Wave 2, the update here has gone back to a few line basically saying that PB are working on the GHQ sideline - riddle me this how buffed up will the conventional forces have to be to tak eon even a single pod?.

Where is the Wave 2 news, the promised PDF of the existing riules, the upload of all the stats cards.

PB want tp be careful they do not drop he ball yet again, by ducking the key question - WHAT IS HAPPENNING WITH WAVE 2?

[ZINO]

hi I am zino I AM A BACKER OF RRT
i am back i been working my rear end off to get my RRT ,i know PB went head first and they were over whelm 1.5 million ( 5,342 backers pledged $1,442,312 to help bring this project to life. ) DAME nice but ,the to many parts has put it a place still MANY are working on to assemble and it a pain still WE have to many die hard fans then the consumer they will have a very hard time from the first timer to those that know will have a hard time get ready . case in point i went to three companies two out of three turn me down and repaid back for the commission they thought it was a prototype!!!!!!! the third went forward and told them take your time and it SLOWLY coming along https://www.facebook.com/pages/Frontlin ... 66?fref=ts
they are great but it take time for a HUGE army of RRT and army been made ASSEMBLE
IMHO It's clear that Kevin and his crew care a lot about this IP, this game, and delivering on their promises.
GIVE THEM TIME
SOME KICK STATER CAN TAKE UP TO 5 YEARS TO COMPLETE!!!! so how many years now
so in December we will see something out so wait for it mark my words
LOOK AT DUST EPIC FAIL https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/duststudio/dust-operation-babylon/description
nothing but love to all

[wilycoyote]

Zino, My belief is that most people have shown a lot of patience and know it takes time to bring a project together.

What is killing this one and to a large extent making the game stagnate, is that PB seem totally reluctant to show any sign of where they are up to with wave 2 (oh the resin pieces fall ito the same category. Instead we are treated to a "misdirection" with a nonesense debate about future scaling and despite being repeatedly told resource is scarce there is a rush to get out "Con" exclusives and conventional forces. Also Wayne's comment about having the Invid ready this year, er how - suggest GHQ have turned a few heads?

Of course we have had the "98%" complete expalined now , but if lessons had to be learnt in WAve One, what is the hold up for WAve 2. What are the proposals say for the Rick and Fokker models are these completely new sculpts or are they aiming at a base valk with an add on sprue, likewise Khyron;s Glaug - assume a replacemnt body and figure?

Of course staying silent simply fuels the rumour mill and the void is filled with negativity.

This time last year at least it was on the verge of the first wave shipping - even if it did not arrive with me till 9 months later.

SAdly at the moment there is little to suggest PB have even got all of the prototypes sorted, so you may be right it might be five years......

[ZINO]

Zino, My belief is that most people have shown a lot of patience and know it takes time to bring a project together.

What is killing this one and to a large extent making the game stagnate, is that PB seem totally reluctant to show any sign of where they are up to with wave 2 (oh the resin pieces fall ito the same category. Instead we are treated to a "misdirection" with a nonesense debate about future scaling and despite being repeatedly told resource is scarce there is a rush to get out "Con" exclusives and conventional forces. Also Wayne's comment about having the Invid ready this year, er how - suggest GHQ have turned a few heads?

Of course we have had the "98%" complete expalined now , but if lessons had to be learnt in WAve One, what is the hold up for WAve 2. What are the proposals say for the Rick and Fokker models are these completely new sculpts or are they aiming at a base valk with an add on sprue, likewise Khyron;s Glaug - assume a replacemnt body and figure?

Of course staying silent simply fuels the rumour mill and the void is filled with negativity.

This time last year at least it was on the verge of the first wave shipping - even if it did not arrive with me till 9 months later.

SAdly at the moment there is little to suggest PB have even got all of the prototypes sorted, so you may be right it might be five years......

i am humble by your words wilycoyote

[Forar]

They themselves have stated that they hope to deliver in December (if not earlier). That is 6 months away.

Last year, when they were 6 months from delivery, they had prototypes and sprue pieces 3D printed and test sprues to show off.

This year they haven't shown off anything of the sort.

That disparity doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to notice, and as the weeks go by without information, what little benefit of the doubt they might've had evaporates.

They say that they've learned, they repeatedly state that they want to communicate better.

Well it has been 4 months since the last substantial update on Wave Two. Surely it's not surprising that some folks have trouble reconciling claims of being close to delivery and yet having nothing to show for it across an entire third of a year?

[rosco60559]

I just find it funny that 50+ percent of the vote on the kickstarter site about scale is people want wave 2 or info on it, followed by leave things at 6mm.

As for this restart in communication, it's not. it is difficult to have faith or believe someone that says they're working on something when they don't share the progress like they promised to.