Awesome but not munchkin...

[tsh77769]

Amaki Stonemen can be the equivalent of Psi-Stalkers.

Psi-Stalkers can be Cyber Knights.

Amaki Stoneman + Psi-Stalker + Cyberknight = AWESOME!!

[say652]

Jungle elf+Psi Stalker+Bio Wizard= legal as well.
While not Amaki tough the varied abilities are cool.

[Alrik Vas]

I'm actually curious as it's something I've never been able to remember right.

If stalkers can be knights, are they limited to their own psionics plus shield/sword/meditation, or do they keep all their natural abilities and just overlay the cyberknight OCC for skills?

[Riftmaker]

Maybe I think dogboys can be cyberknights why not stalkers?

[say652]

Only certain psionic classes keep the Psi Stalker abilities and gain new ones.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Amaki Stonemen can be the equivalent of Psi-Stalkers.

Psi-Stalkers can be Cyber Knights.

Amaki Stoneman + Psi-Stalker + Cyberknight = AWESOME!!

The problem is that the ASM Psi-Stalker is a PCC not a mutation. So while they could become a ASM P-S they could not change out of the PCC via the current changing class rule for Rifts. The rules governing changing class (as per RUE) do not allow Psychic Char Classes to change their class.
-------------------------------

Jungle elf+Psi Stalker+Bio Wizard= legal as well.
While not Amaki tough the varied abilities are cool.

There is no text in the Jungle Elf racial text that allows them to be Psi-Stalkers or a PCC equivalent to Psi-Stalkers.

Bio-wizards are a NPC class which there is no Char Class text for, like with the Alchemist NPC class. So I presume you ether meant the Biomancy OCC or that they would retain their biomancy powers. Nether of which would be true.
Again the changing class rules does not allow it and if Jungle Elves have a master psionic PCC, they lose their biomancy abilities. See the '*' text in the typical char classes section of the racial text.
-------------------------------

Only certain psionic classes keep the Psi Stalker abilities and gain new ones.

You need to give book/page references for Psi-Stalkers taking a class other then the P-S RCCs.(civ./wild)

[flatline]

Temporal Wizards

You start at level 1 having already been to several dimensions and you have Dimensional Portal as a starting spell.

And you can start with Talisman so that you can build enough PPE batteries to actually be able to cast Dimensional Portal.

Everything else is just gravy.

--flatline

[say652]

Kitty kitty. I stand corrected. Biomancy as you pointed out.
Going to page number hunt.

[Crow Splat]

You need to give book/page references for Psi-Stalkers taking a class other then the P-S RCCs.(civ./wild)

Siege on Tolkeen 4 breaks down Cyber-Knights by race and something like 2% are listed as being psi-stalkers. I would treat them just like dog boys. Keep all the numbered powers listed before skills and stuff, then take skills per Cyber-Knight OCC and select psychic powers as a Cyber-Knight of equivalent psychic level.

[Bill]

Siege on Tolkeen 4 breaks down Cyber-Knights by race and something like 2% are listed as being psi-stalkers. I would treat them just like dog boys. Keep all the numbered powers listed before skills and stuff, then take skills per Cyber-Knight OCC and select psychic powers as a Cyber-Knight of equivalent psychic level.

P. 23 of SoT4; 3% are psi-stalkers. I would handle it the same, except substitute the psi-stalker's psionics for those gained by the Cyberknight under the Inner Spirit heading on p. 64 of RUE.

[eliakon]

You need to give book/page references for Psi-Stalkers taking a class other then the P-S RCCs.(civ./wild)

Siege on Tolkeen 4 breaks down Cyber-Knights by race and something like 2% are listed as being psi-stalkers. I would treat them just like dog boys. Keep all the numbered powers listed before skills and stuff, then take skills per Cyber-Knight OCC and select psychic powers as a Cyber-Knight of equivalent psychic level.

Then we know that 'normal psi-stalkers' (what ever that is) can be Cyber-Knights. This does not mean that an Amaki Psi-Stalker (Equivalent, since they are not actually Psi-Stalkers) can be a Cyber-Knight.

It also does not answer exactly what abilities would be racial abilities and what are part of the class (this is the same issue with dog-boys of course)

[drewkitty ~..~]

It also does not answer exactly what abilities would be racial abilities and what are part of the class (this is the same issue with dog-boys of course)

With the ASM P-S equivalent PCC I would have them have all the normal powers except the Feeding power.

Or maybe that they have the feeding power but not have the ASM a PPE vampire, but have the feeding power the only way that they "recover" ISP.

And maybe give them some more psi powers

[Crow Splat]

You need to give book/page references for Psi-Stalkers taking a class other then the P-S RCCs.(civ./wild)

Siege on Tolkeen 4 breaks down Cyber-Knights by race and something like 2% are listed as being psi-stalkers. I would treat them just like dog boys. Keep all the numbered powers listed before skills and stuff, then take skills per Cyber-Knight OCC and select psychic powers as a Cyber-Knight of equivalent psychic level.

Then we know that 'normal psi-stalkers' (what ever that is) can be Cyber-Knights. This does not mean that an Amaki Psi-Stalker (Equivalent, since they are not actually Psi-Stalkers) can be a Cyber-Knight.

It also does not answer exactly what abilities would be racial abilities and what are part of the class (this is the same issue with dog-boys of course)

Actually Lone star is very specific on what abilities Dog Boys keep when taking another OCC and calls them racial. I use that as a template for Psi-Stalkers becoming Cyber-Knights.

[Mack]

Guidance for Psi-Stalkers taking another class is on page 83 of Psyscape. At the time, the only other allowable classes were the Nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifer, but that has been trumped by later publications.

Short version:
-- Lose all "Psi-Stalker RCC and psionic abilities"
-- Gain the psionics and special abilities of the new class
-- Skills and equipment remain with the Psi-Stalker class

[flatline]

Guidance for Psi-Stalkers taking another class is on page 83 of Psyscape. At the time, the only other allowable classes were the Nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifer, but that has been trumped by later publications.

Short version:
-- Lose all "Psi-Stalker RCC and psionic abilities"
-- Gain the psionics and special abilities of the new class
-- Skills and equipment remain with the Psi-Stalker class

Presumably they don't lose the ability to feed on PPE/ISP, right?

--flatline

[Mack]

Guidance for Psi-Stalkers taking another class is on page 83 of Psyscape. At the time, the only other allowable classes were the Nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifer, but that has been trumped by later publications.

Short version:
-- Lose all "Psi-Stalker RCC and psionic abilities"
-- Gain the psionics and special abilities of the new class
-- Skills and equipment remain with the Psi-Stalker class

Presumably they don't lose the ability to feed on PPE/ISP, right?

Depends on how the GM interprets "Psi-Stalker RCC and psionic abilities." It's not specifically called out, either way.

[Bill]

The text basically indicates that all of the numbered abilities are swapped for the nega-psychic or psi-nullifier powers. Sensing PPE and feeding are both numbered abilities. They get all the racism and none of the standard perks of being a stalker as I interpret it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

What is that? Three CC's Cyberknight, Nega-Psi, & Psi-Null. A fourth would be the Psi-Slayer. All of them Psionic classes.

[Shark_Force]

could've swore there was a psi-slinger class in one of the new west books that they can take.

[Nightmask]

The text basically indicates that all of the numbered abilities are swapped for the nega-psychic or psi-nullifier powers. Sensing PPE and feeding are both numbered abilities. They get all the racism and none of the standard perks of being a stalker as I interpret it.

Except then they starve to death shortly thereafter, since they no longer have the ability to feed and if they can't feed like everything else they die.

[Fell]

Psiscape also mentions Psi Warrior can be a Cyber Knight. I thought that was almost as odd as the CS having Psi Warriors in Psi Battalion.

[Bill]

The text basically indicates that all of the numbered abilities are swapped for the nega-psychic or psi-nullifier powers. Sensing PPE and feeding are both numbered abilities. They get all the racism and none of the standard perks of being a stalker as I interpret it.

Except then they starve to death shortly thereafter, since they no longer have the ability to feed and if they can't feed like everything else they die.

The bit requiring them to feed on PPE is included in the Nourishment section, point 6 under powers and abilities, as well. Null-stalkers and Nega-stalkers eat and drink like regular humans. Probably freaks their families right out.

[Nightmask]

The text basically indicates that all of the numbered abilities are swapped for the nega-psychic or psi-nullifier powers. Sensing PPE and feeding are both numbered abilities. They get all the racism and none of the standard perks of being a stalker as I interpret it.

Except then they starve to death shortly thereafter, since they no longer have the ability to feed and if they can't feed like everything else they die.

The bit requiring them to feed on PPE is included in the Nourishment section, point 6 under powers and abilities, as well. Null-stalkers and Nega-stalkers eat and drink like regular humans. Probably freaks their families right out.

Something that wouldn't make much sense, given that's not how they're biologically adapted.

[Bill]

Mutants with superpowers don't make sense.

[Crow Splat]

The text basically indicates that all of the numbered abilities are swapped for the nega-psychic or psi-nullifier powers. Sensing PPE and feeding are both numbered abilities. They get all the racism and none of the standard perks of being a stalker as I interpret it.

RAW this is the way I would lean. But RAW often takes a back seat to narrative in my games so I would playbill like a dog boy. I.E. keep all numbered abilities of Psi-Stalker and swap out psionics for the new OCC. Add any numbered abilities from the new OCC and pick one if two conflict.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Mutants with superpowers don't make sense.

Other people might say Mutants without superpowers don't make sense.

[Bill]

Mutants with superpowers don't make sense.

Other people might say Mutants without superpowers don't make sense.

I miss the old random mutation table from the RMB. Most of those were just cosmetic.

My point was that these rare Psi-Stalkers represent less than one percent of their subspecies, and that they are effectively mutants among mutants. Consistency between their powers and those of other Psi-Stalkers is not required. A GM can certainly choose to more carefully swap powers between the available Psi-Stalker classes, but the instructions from Psyscape are to swap out everything all at once. And in the greater context of Rifts, it seems about right to me.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yep,
which makes GM's and players discuss things to come up with fixes.

[Nightmask]

Mutants with superpowers don't make sense.

Other people might say Mutants without superpowers don't make sense.

I miss the old random mutation table from the RMB. Most of those were just cosmetic.

My point was that these rare Psi-Stalkers represent less than one percent of their subspecies, and that they are effectively mutants among mutants. Consistency between their powers and those of other Psi-Stalkers is not required. A GM can certainly choose to more carefully swap powers between the available Psi-Stalker classes, but the instructions from Psyscape are to swap out everything all at once. And in the greater context of Rifts, it seems about right to me.

Except they aren't mutants among mutants, their psionic focus might be different but nothing about it is affecting their fundamental biology, which is geared towards deriving it's main nourishment from PPE.

[eliakon]

I can honestly see this going both ways. Especially since we also have weirdness like various races having 'effective psi-stalkers'....do these people suddenly not need food, even though their parents do?

The answer to both questions is "What makes your game better"

[Tor]

Kinda like to think that Psi-Stalkers mutant who just start as Cyber-Knights without bothering to gain at least 1 level in the Psi-Stalker OCC would only have the dietary PPE-eating thing but none of the other benefits.

Come to think of it: does it say anywhere that a Psi-Stalker can START as a Cyber-Knight? Perhaps they can't and must start as a level 1 Psi-Stakler then use the class-changing rules to learn Cyber-Knight ?

[Bill]

Mutants with superpowers don't make sense.

Other people might say Mutants without superpowers don't make sense.

I miss the old random mutation table from the RMB. Most of those were just cosmetic.

My point was that these rare Psi-Stalkers represent less than one percent of their subspecies, and that they are effectively mutants among mutants. Consistency between their powers and those of other Psi-Stalkers is not required. A GM can certainly choose to more carefully swap powers between the available Psi-Stalker classes, but the instructions from Psyscape are to swap out everything all at once. And in the greater context of Rifts, it seems about right to me.

Except they aren't mutants among mutants, their psionic focus might be different but nothing about it is affecting their fundamental biology, which is geared towards deriving it's main nourishment from PPE.

Is that how you wish it was? Or have you got a source? The game doesn't try to make sense in the way you want it to. I actually agree that they ought to be more consistent, but that's not how it's written.

[say652]

My hu Psi Stalkers.
Alien..Uh Psi Stalker, power catergory:Mutant.
Claws and a bite yo.
Common powers.
Negate Super Powers.
Superhuman Strength.
Healing Factor.
Flight:Wingless.

I used the cs civilized Psi Stalker for skills.
Any whooo.

Elite "government" operatives deaidned for combating the superhuman, Supernatural, magical and psionic menaces destroying 'Murica.

Used the SAMAS as well just swapped the railgun for a 50 cal.

[Nightmask]

Mutants with superpowers don't make sense.

Other people might say Mutants without superpowers don't make sense.

I miss the old random mutation table from the RMB. Most of those were just cosmetic.

My point was that these rare Psi-Stalkers represent less than one percent of their subspecies, and that they are effectively mutants among mutants. Consistency between their powers and those of other Psi-Stalkers is not required. A GM can certainly choose to more carefully swap powers between the available Psi-Stalker classes, but the instructions from Psyscape are to swap out everything all at once. And in the greater context of Rifts, it seems about right to me.

Except they aren't mutants among mutants, their psionic focus might be different but nothing about it is affecting their fundamental biology, which is geared towards deriving it's main nourishment from PPE.

Is that how you wish it was? Or have you got a source? The game doesn't try to make sense in the way you want it to. I actually agree that they ought to be more consistent, but that's not how it's written.

If you're going to list them as mutants of mutants you're the one who'd need the source to back that up, otherwise they aren't they're the same mutant stock just with their psychic potential focused differently.

[Bill]

If you're going to list them as mutants of mutants you're the one who'd need the source to back that up, otherwise they aren't they're the same mutant stock just with their psychic potential focused differently.

The vast majority of Psi-Stalkers (99+ percent) fall into the "classic" Psi-Stalker R.C.C., however, a small percentage develop other psionic powers. These are limited to the Nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifier. Both are considered mutations within the Psi-Stalker race.

Your turn.

[say652]

Cant believe nobody mentioned the 100% legal Sea Inquisitor Psi Stalker.
Psi Stalker Warrior of Valhalla.
Demigod Psi Stalker.
With the Gizmoteers an Amaki Psi Stalker would have access to uber munchkindeal Psionics.

[eliakon]

If you're going to list them as mutants of mutants you're the one who'd need the source to back that up, otherwise they aren't they're the same mutant stock just with their psychic potential focused differently.

The vast majority of Psi-Stalkers (99+ percent) fall into the "classic" Psi-Stalker R.C.C., however, a small percentage develop other psionic powers. These are limited to the Nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifier. Both are considered mutations within the Psi-Stalker race.

Your turn.

Of course this raises the question of "if Psi-Stalker is a race, and the race eats X, do the mutants eat Y" After all they are now mutant psi-stalkers, not mutant humans.

(Personally, I would leave them the feeding power. But in my game I have made them eat the PPE in addition to normal food and water, because I find the idea of a non-supernatural race not needing physical sustenance silly)

[say652]

I know present the munchkinest thing of the day.

Demigod:Sea Inquisitor Psi Stalker. Pantheon power:Phase Mystic. Warrior of Valhalla.
A whole duckton of psionic abilities, can deal double damage to Supernatural Evil regardless of immunities. Spell negation. Forcefield. Supernatural Tracking. And PHASE POWERS!!
and in mdc realms+1D4×100mdc or in an sdc realm times two Hitpoints and sdc.

Colby Monterey seems like a good name. lol

[Bill]

If you're going to list them as mutants of mutants you're the one who'd need the source to back that up, otherwise they aren't they're the same mutant stock just with their psychic potential focused differently.

The vast majority of Psi-Stalkers (99+ percent) fall into the "classic" Psi-Stalker R.C.C., however, a small percentage develop other psionic powers. These are limited to the Nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifier. Both are considered mutations within the Psi-Stalker race.

Your turn.

Of course this raises the question of "if Psi-Stalker is a race, and the race eats X, do the mutants eat Y" After all they are now mutant psi-stalkers, not mutant humans.

(Personally, I would leave them the feeding power. But in my game I have made them eat the PPE in addition to normal food and water, because I find the idea of a non-supernatural race not needing physical sustenance silly)

Some yogis and holy men have legendarily done it. I figure it's a psychic trans-substantiation sort of power.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm trying to figure out how many of these aren't munchkin. just because they are book legal doesn't mean they aren't munchkin.

[eliakon]

If you're going to list them as mutants of mutants you're the one who'd need the source to back that up, otherwise they aren't they're the same mutant stock just with their psychic potential focused differently.

The vast majority of Psi-Stalkers (99+ percent) fall into the "classic" Psi-Stalker R.C.C., however, a small percentage develop other psionic powers. These are limited to the Nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifier. Both are considered mutations within the Psi-Stalker race.

Your turn.

Of course this raises the question of "if Psi-Stalker is a race, and the race eats X, do the mutants eat Y" After all they are now mutant psi-stalkers, not mutant humans.

(Personally, I would leave them the feeding power. But in my game I have made them eat the PPE in addition to normal food and water, because I find the idea of a non-supernatural race not needing physical sustenance silly)

Some yogis and holy men have legendarily done it. I figure it's a psychic trans-substantiation sort of power.

Since the only legends about this are pure myths in the same vein as demons, gods and other magic I think I can safely say that its all in the same level of effect. Namely supernatural and/or magic. And since we have magic in this game and this isn't magic, and its not supernatural that sort of leaves us with silly.....

[say652]

this munchkin thing is so 1985.
Plating an epic hero in an epic post apocalyptic world. Is being ready for battle.
Being under powered for the game is a nerfherder thing.

[Q99]

i'm trying to figure out how many of these aren't munchkin. just because they are book legal doesn't mean they aren't munchkin.

With the first one at least, even an Amaki-Stalker-Knight isn't exactly overpowering.

[eliakon]

i'm trying to figure out how many of these aren't munchkin. just because they are book legal doesn't mean they aren't munchkin.

With the first one at least, even an Amaki-Stalker-Knight isn't exactly overpowering.

Depending on the game and the persons definition of 'not over powering'
ESPECIALLY since that 3d6x100 SDC turns to MDC under certain circumstances.....

[say652]

Now an Amaki Demon Quellar, woo buddy, around 3500-3600mdc with good rolls and chi gung. Not a bad power for 1ppe.

[Bill]

If you're going to list them as mutants of mutants you're the one who'd need the source to back that up, otherwise they aren't they're the same mutant stock just with their psychic potential focused differently.

The vast majority of Psi-Stalkers (99+ percent) fall into the "classic" Psi-Stalker R.C.C., however, a small percentage develop other psionic powers. These are limited to the Nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifier. Both are considered mutations within the Psi-Stalker race.

Your turn.

Of course this raises the question of "if Psi-Stalker is a race, and the race eats X, do the mutants eat Y" After all they are now mutant psi-stalkers, not mutant humans.

(Personally, I would leave them the feeding power. But in my game I have made them eat the PPE in addition to normal food and water, because I find the idea of a non-supernatural race not needing physical sustenance silly)

Some yogis and holy men have legendarily done it. I figure it's a psychic trans-substantiation sort of power.

Since the only legends about this are pure myths in the same vein as demons, gods and other magic I think I can safely say that its all in the same level of effect. Namely supernatural and/or magic. And since we have magic in this game and this isn't magic, and its not supernatural that sort of leaves us with silly.....

In yogic traditions it's arrived at via meditation, sun gazing, and controlled breathing. It certainly can be viewed as magical, and the sustain spell exists to accomplish that, but it's no more outlandish as a psychic power than manifesting a blade of pure energy.

[Tor]

Munchkinism is entirelty subjective, some see it as a playing style rather than a specific tier of power.

[Vincent Takeda]

My favorite power is multiple beings, which I think has a pretty munchkin reputation so pretty much everything I build seems to start out munchkin for that alone... Then you add on that I also like some of the other body mod powers and munchkin is a pretty foregone conclusion for me.

My current pair are 'immortal spirits of light'. One has multiple beings, alter facial features, shrink, dimensional room, metal manipulation, and color manipulation, while the other has multiple beings, alter facial features, alter physical body, growth, shrink, and technoform.

Heroes unlimited 2e revised I think had a specific blurb about how about how not only is multiple beings plus growth a galant dive into the munchkin pool, but even multiple beings plus alter physical body is probably munchkin enough that it should only be allowed with gm approval, so the things I enjoy most seem to be quite munchkinny simply because the things I like most include multiple beings.