Attack on Reflex Point Shadow Chronicles

[smkeyes]

Attack on reflex point

Attack Group 1: In position on the planet
Captain Harrington
Commander Reynolds

Attack Group 2:
40 SDCV Ikazuchi-class Carrier
480 SDCL Garfish-class Cruiser

Attack Group 3:
1 SDF-04 Liberator
4 SDBC Shimakaze-class Battlecruiser
21 SDCV Ikazuchi-class Carrier
288 SDCL Garfish-class Cruiser

Carrier Group (standard)
1 SDCV Ikazuchi-Class Carrier
12 SDCL Garfish-Class Cruiser

Attack Group 2: Composed of 40 Carrier groups or attack divisions
1st wave of an attack division
lead element is made up of 3 lines of 12 fighter units each composing of a matted alpha & Beta fighter and four alpha shadow fighters.
36 matted Alpha & Beta shadow fighters and 144 Alpha fighters. Total 180 fighters.

Behind the Carrier is a second formation of 36 fighter groups. Based on the craft the Garfish and Ikazuchi can carry there should be around 360 fighters.
36 Matted Alpha & Beta Shadow fighters and 324 Alpha shadow fighters.


2nd Wave of an attack division
1 SDCV Ikazuchi-Class Carrier
12 SDCL Garfish-Class Cruisers

[Alpha 11]

Like the info. Hope there will be more, if there is more.

[Seto Kaiba]

Attack Group 2:
30 SDCV Ikazuchi-class Carrier
348 SDCL Garfish-class Cruiser

Attack Group 3:
1 SDF-04 Liberator
4 SDBC Shimakaze-class Battlecruiser
10 SDCV Ikazuchi-class Carrier
120 SDCL Garfish-class Cruiser

That's a lot more ships than were actually present for the battle in the animation...

The UEEF fleet at the Battle of Reflex Point in the Shadow Chronicles movie was 395 ships, broken up into 30 identical carrier battle groups of 1 Ikazuchi-class carrier and 12 Garfish-class escorts and 1 command element of the SDF-4 and 4 of the new Shimakaze-class escorts. (Would've been 5 Shimakaze-class ships, but the Icarus went looking for the SDF-3 instead.)

Attack Division (standard)
1 SDCV Ikazuchi-Class Carrier
1 squadron(12) 12 VFA-6X + VFB-9X Fighters
25 squadrons(12) 300 VFA-6X Fighters
14 squadrons(12) 168 VFB-9X Fighters
10 squads(8) 80 ZBR-10 Mk.I Bioroid Interceptors
1 squadron(12) 12 MBR-12 Mk.II Condors

The series version Ikazuchi-class only carries 144 fighters... you've got it carrying 572 fighters or fighter-sized combat mecha here. The movie version probably carries even less, since the quick-launch bays were replaced by catapult decks, and didn't have Betas used as separate aircraft, or any Condors or Bioroid Interceptors (because the Condor had been retired and Britai's unit had been wiped out the year before).

[Chris]

If that was THE Harrington, the Invid wouldn't have stood a chance would have be pasted at ranges exceeding 60 million km.

[smkeyes]

Attack Group 2:
30 SDCV Ikazuchi-class Carrier
348 SDCL Garfish-class Cruiser

Attack Group 3:
1 SDF-04 Liberator
4 SDBC Shimakaze-class Battlecruiser
10 SDCV Ikazuchi-class Carrier
120 SDCL Garfish-class Cruiser

That's a lot more ships than were actually present for the battle in the animation...

The UEEF fleet at the Battle of Reflex Point in the Shadow Chronicles movie was 395 ships, broken up into 30 identical carrier battle groups of 1 Ikazuchi-class carrier and 12 Garfish-class escorts and 1 command element of the SDF-4 and 4 of the new Shimakaze-class escorts. (Would've been 5 Shimakaze-class ships, but the Icarus went looking for the SDF-3 instead.)

Attack Division (standard)
1 SDCV Ikazuchi-Class Carrier
1 squadron(12) 12 VFA-6X + VFB-9X Fighters
25 squadrons(12) 300 VFA-6X Fighters
14 squadrons(12) 168 VFB-9X Fighters
10 squads(8) 80 ZBR-10 Mk.I Bioroid Interceptors
1 squadron(12) 12 MBR-12 Mk.II Condors

The series version Ikazuchi-class only carries 144 fighters... you've got it carrying 572 fighters or fighter-sized combat mecha here. The movie version probably carries even less, since the quick-launch bays were replaced by catapult decks, and didn't have Betas used as separate aircraft, or any Condors or Bioroid Interceptors (because the Condor had been retired and Britai's unit had been wiped out the year before).

Per art of the Shadow chronicels the Ikazuchi Classs Carriers carried 144 alpha fighters in six quick reaction bays and carried an additional 440 Mecha such as Beta fighters. So in total they carried 584 Mecha aboard the ships.
I changed things around for the standard Attack Divisions since in the movie each squadron commander was flying a matted Alpha & Beta shadow fighter with the rest of the squadron flying Alpha shadow fighters.

Check out the footage of the haydinites watching the fleet assemble there is the SDF-4 and 44 other large ships on the display the only thing they can be are the Ikazuchi Class Carriers and the Shimakaze Class Battlecruisers.

[Seto Kaiba]

Per art of the Shadow chronicels the Ikazuchi Classs Carriers carried 144 alpha fighters in six quick reaction bays and carried an additional 440 Mecha such as Beta fighters.

Forgot the ground forces? Also, the Ikazuchi-class ships in the movie don't have the quick reaction bays... they've got Battlestar Galactica-style catapults instead (visible at 12:40), and those barely accommodate an Alpha fighter. (The fleet also appears to be quite undermanned, with each carrier group only having around 45 fighters in the establishing shots.)

I changed things around for the standard Attack Divisions since in the movie each squadron commander was flying a matted Alpha & Beta shadow fighter with the rest of the squadron flying Alpha shadow fighters.

If that's true, a squadron is only 5 planes, from the animation.

Check out the footage of the haydinites watching the fleet assemble there is the SDF-4 and 44 other large ships on the display the only thing they can be are the Ikazuchi Class Carriers and the Shimakaze Class Battlecruisers.

Counting from the establishing shots of the fleet, there are only 30 carrier groups visible, each an identical copy-pasted formation. I think you might be counting a couple ships twice because of the way the shot pans.

[smkeyes]

Per art of the Shadow chronicels the Ikazuchi Classs Carriers carried 144 alpha fighters in six quick reaction bays and carried an additional 440 Mecha such as Beta fighters.

Forgot the ground forces? Also, the Ikazuchi-class ships in the movie don't have the quick reaction bays... they've got Battlestar Galactica-style catapults instead (visible at 12:40), and those barely accommodate an Alpha fighter. (The fleet also appears to be quite undermanned, with each carrier group only having around 45 fighters in the establishing shots.)

No I have not forgotten the ground forces it has already been established by Lt. General Reinhardt that those forces are already on the surface. Those catapults are the quick reaction bays.

I changed things around for the standard Attack Divisions since in the movie each squadron commander was flying a matted Alpha & Beta shadow fighter with the rest of the squadron flying Alpha shadow fighters.

If that's true, a squadron is only 5 planes, from the animation.

Look behind the carriers and you will see formations of fighters there as well.

Check out the footage of the haydinites watching the fleet assemble there is the SDF-4 and 44 other large ships on the display the only thing they can be are the Ikazuchi Class Carriers and the Shimakaze Class Battlecruisers.

Counting from the establishing shots of the fleet, there are only 30 carrier groups visible, each an identical copy-pasted formation. I think you might be counting a couple ships twice because of the way the shot pans.

I will look again.

[Seto Kaiba]

No I have not forgotten the ground forces it has already been established by Lt. General Reinhardt that those forces are already on the surface.

Eh... not quite. Those are the survivors of previous (botched) landings and what's left of the advance recon forces sent to scout the area before the attack. The point of the attack was to land additional troops and retake Reflex Point. (That's why, even in the RPG, the ground mecha like Cyclones and Silverbacks outnumber the fighters more than ten to one.)

Those catapults are the quick reaction bays.

No, these are the launch bays... the stats in AotSC are just copy-pasted from the Robotech.com Infopedia stats for the series version of the ship. The AotSC entry doesn't account for the changes in design between the series and movie... like the replacement of the 144 quick-launch slots with 60 catapult tunnels.

[smkeyes]

No I have not forgotten the ground forces it has already been established by Lt. General Reinhardt that those forces are already on the surface.

Eh... not quite. Those are the survivors of previous (botched) landings and what's left of the advance recon forces sent to scout the area before the attack. The point of the attack was to land additional troops and retake Reflex Point. (That's why, even in the RPG, the ground mecha like Cyclones and Silverbacks outnumber the fighters more than ten to one.)

No attack group one was on the planet. Their job was to take out the energy shield protecting reflex point so that it could be taken out I believe by orbital bombardment.

Those catapults are the quick reaction bays.

No, these are the launch bays... the stats in AotSC are just copy-pasted from the Robotech.com Infopedia stats for the series version of the ship. The AotSC entry doesn't account for the changes in design between the series and movie... like the replacement of the 144 quick-launch slots with 60 catapult tunnels.

6 quick reaction bays. They can be set to 10 catapult launch tubes for launching in fighter mode or to launch 24 craft in battloid mode. Either way they are set up, they are referred to as quick reaction bays.

[eliakon]

Those catapults are the quick reaction bays.

No, these are the launch bays... the stats in AotSC are just copy-pasted from the Robotech.com Infopedia stats for the series version of the ship. The AotSC entry doesn't account for the changes in design between the series and movie... like the replacement of the 144 quick-launch slots with 60 catapult tunnels.

So the claim here is that the AoTSC and the Infopedia are wrong about their own subject?
No offense here but if the official material says X then it sort of is X........

[Colonel Wolfe]

So the claim here is that the AoTSC and the Infopedia are wrong about their own subject?
No offense here but if the official material says X then it sort of is X........

yeah, the IP owners would be the last word on what appears in their original intellectual property.

This is a pretty nice list to create a minimum troop count.
The fact the Ikazuchi's presented in the Movie and the Series are varations on the same hull, you could add the ones present in the series with the Alternate launch bays as additional forces.
The invid princess and Regesis do say the Humans have numerical superiority in the episode.

[glitterboy2098]

given the new ikazuchi's seem to be longer than the one seen in new gen footage, i've personally been considering the idea that there are actually two versions of the ikazuchi hull..

a "landing ship" version with the alpha battloid quick deploy bays and thus extra room for cargo and ground troops (what we see in the New Gen section)
and a longer "carrier" version with a more conventional hanger deck, catapult bays, and somewhat stronger defenses. (the shadow chronicles ones)

[Lt Gargoyle]

given the new ikazuchi's seem to be longer than the one seen in new gen footage, i've personally been considering the idea that there are actually two versions of the ikazuchi hull..

a "landing ship" version with the alpha battloid quick deploy bays and thus extra room for cargo and ground troops (what we see in the New Gen section)
and a longer "carrier" version with a more conventional hanger deck, catapult bays, and somewhat stronger defenses. (the shadow chronicles ones)

that actually would make a lot of sense, especially with the Navy and Marines having two separate branches now.

[Seto Kaiba]

No attack group one was on the planet. Their job was to take out the energy shield protecting reflex point so that it could be taken out I believe by orbital bombardment.

That was just the initial group of ground forces before the attack began... the goal of the offensive was to take Reflex Point from the ground or, if that failed, to annihilate it from space with the neutron-s missiles. The movie only mentions it as an aside because it's focused on Marcus and Maia instead of Scott, but the UEEF's fleet in orbit was sending troops and drones down to the surface during the battle to bolster the ground attack on Reflex Point. Lancer and co. had to fight their way through those reinforcements to leave Reflex Point near the end of the battle.

The UEEF in the Prelude/RTSC depiction is at least as heavily oriented around ground assaults as they were in the original 85 or the original MOSPEADA, and the RPG supports this by having ground troops aboard each ship outnumbering the fighters and other mecha by an order of magnitude.

6 quick reaction bays. They can be set to 10 catapult launch tubes for launching in fighter mode or to launch 24 craft in battloid mode. Either way they are set up, they are referred to as quick reaction bays.

There's nothing like that in the text... which is mostly just copy-pasted from the Infopedia description of the version of the ship seen in the TV series.

given the new ikazuchi's seem to be longer than the one seen in new gen footage, i've personally been considering the idea that there are actually two versions of the ikazuchi hull..

a "landing ship" version with the alpha battloid quick deploy bays and thus extra room for cargo and ground troops (what we see in the New Gen section)
and a longer "carrier" version with a more conventional hanger deck, catapult bays, and somewhat stronger defenses. (the shadow chronicles ones)

I could get behind that idea... though the stats as a whole are in desperate need of a rewrite. The physical dimensions given don't match the proportions of the ship, and its stated size doesn't line up with either version. Even the size comparison art for the two versions don't match on the (now-defunct) Robotech.com size comparison chart.

(Clues in the RTSC CG model's design point to it being roughly the same size it was in the OSM... ~300m instead of 600m+.)

[smkeyes]

No attack group one was on the planet. Their job was to take out the energy shield protecting reflex point so that it could be taken out I believe by orbital bombardment.

That was just the initial group of ground forces before the attack began... the goal of the offensive was to take Reflex Point from the ground or, if that failed, to annihilate it from space with the neutron-s missiles. The movie only mentions it as an aside because it's focused on Marcus and Maia instead of Scott, but the UEEF's fleet in orbit was sending troops and drones down to the surface during the battle to bolster the ground attack on Reflex Point. Lancer and co. had to fight their way through those reinforcements to leave Reflex Point near the end of the battle.

The UEEF in the Prelude/RTSC depiction is at least as heavily oriented around ground assaults as they were in the original 85 or the original MOSPEADA, and the RPG supports this by having ground troops aboard each ship outnumbering the fighters and other mecha by an order of magnitude.

6 quick reaction bays. They can be set to 10 catapult launch tubes for launching in fighter mode or to launch 24 craft in battloid mode. Either way they are set up, they are referred to as quick reaction bays.

There's nothing like that in the text... which is mostly just copy-pasted from the Infopedia description of the version of the ship seen in the TV series.

given the new ikazuchi's seem to be longer than the one seen in new gen footage, i've personally been considering the idea that there are actually two versions of the ikazuchi hull..

a "landing ship" version with the alpha battloid quick deploy bays and thus extra room for cargo and ground troops (what we see in the New Gen section)
and a longer "carrier" version with a more conventional hanger deck, catapult bays, and somewhat stronger defenses. (the shadow chronicles ones)

I could get behind that idea... though the stats as a whole are in desperate need of a rewrite. The physical dimensions given don't match the proportions of the ship, and its stated size doesn't line up with either version. Even the size comparison art for the two versions don't match on the (now-defunct) Robotech.com size comparison chart.

(Clues in the RTSC CG model's design point to it being roughly the same size it was in the OSM... ~300m instead of 600m+.)

Since you see a matted alpha & Beta fighter take off from the catapult in the shadow chronicles the bays have to be wider that 19.5 meters the wingspan of a beta fighter I personally think they are about 21 meters wide with 3 bays on a side just the 15 catapults would put the ship over 315 meters

[ShadowLogan]

Since you see a matted alpha & Beta fighter take off from the catapult in the shadow chronicles the bays have to be wider that 19.5 meters the wingspan of a beta fighter I personally think they are about 21 meters wide with 3 bays on a side just the 15 catapults would put the ship over 315 meters

Well one way to make it easier to launch a A/B would be to have the wings retracted into a storage position since it isn't like the wings are needed for them to take off in space. That means width wise you don't need much more room than an F mode Alpha IIRC, though height is more an issue.

Really Shadow Chronicles approach to launch and recovery to Macross-ize it really isn't necessary. What NG/GCM suggests is that they use a completely different approach than "runway".

[Chronicler]

Since you see a matted alpha & Beta fighter take off from the catapult in the shadow chronicles the bays have to be wider that 19.5 meters the wingspan of a beta fighter I personally think they are about 21 meters wide with 3 bays on a side just the 15 catapults would put the ship over 315 meters

Well one way to make it easier to launch a A/B would be to have the wings retracted into a storage position since it isn't like the wings are needed for them to take off in space. That means width wise you don't need much more room than an F mode Alpha IIRC, though height is more an issue.

Really Shadow Chronicles approach to launch and recovery to Macross-ize it really isn't necessary. What NG/GCM suggests is that they use a completely different approach than "runway".

Launch tubes like in BSG is cool, but why not just "release" them from the hold like in Aliens, or Halo? Heck they could also do the hanger thing from Starwars with them just lifting up and fly straight into space from a two-way force-field.

[Seto Kaiba]

Since you see a matted alpha & Beta fighter take off from the catapult in the shadow chronicles the bays have to be wider that 19.5 meters the wingspan of a beta fighter I personally think they are about 21 meters wide with 3 bays on a side just the 15 catapults would put the ship over 315 meters

Your recollection of the scene might not be entirely accurate.

The above is a screen capture from that very scene, which clearly shows two things:

1. There is no Beta fighter attached to Marcus's shadow fighter during the depicted launch from an Ikazuchi-class (movie type) catapult deck.
   
2. The catapult tunnel itself is BARELY wide enough to permit the egress of the "naked" shadow fighter, putting it at about 9m wide for the 8.2m-wingspan shadow fighter. As each catapult deck is a 5x2 arrangement of catapult tunnels which is approximately 1/6th the length of the ship, and evidence suggests they are approximately 50m end-to-end... well, the math sort of does itself.

Well one way to make it easier to launch a A/B would be to have the wings retracted into a storage position since it isn't like the wings are needed for them to take off in space. That means width wise you don't need much more room than an F mode Alpha IIRC, though height is more an issue.

They probably launch the combiners from the amidships "wide open" hangar below the bridge. That way, space is no object.

Really Shadow Chronicles approach to launch and recovery to Macross-ize it really isn't necessary. What NG/GCM suggests is that they use a completely different approach than "runway".

This wasn't a Macross-ism, it's a Battlestar Galactica-ism... and I very much doubt it's a coincidence, as the Shadow Chronicles movie started development right around the time Ron Moore's reimagined Battlestar Galactica TV series started airing.

Edit: Of course, the Genesis Climber MOSPEADA ships didn't have any way to recover their fighters (and indeed probably didn't care, since they were assault ships rather than carriers)...

Launch tubes like in BSG is cool, but why not just "release" them from the hold like in Aliens, or Halo? Heck they could also do the hanger thin from Starwars with them just lifting up and fly straight into space from a two-way force-field.

You mean the way they did in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA (and RT's New Generation), where they literally fire the Armo-Soldiers [Battloids] out into space, ripple-fire style, like missiles?

(The two-way force field thing doesn't seem to exist in Robotech... at least, among human technologies.)

[Chronicler]

Launch tubes like in BSG is cool, but why not just "release" them from the hold like in Aliens, or Halo? Heck they could also do the hanger thin from Starwars with them just lifting up and fly straight into space from a two-way force-field.

You mean the way they did in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA (and RT's New Generation), where they literally fire the Armo-Soldiers [Battloids] out into space, ripple-fire style, like missiles?

(The two-way force field thing doesn't seem to exist in Robotech... at least, among human technologies.)

I was thinking more along the lines of this:

http://www.blacksheepproductions.net/wp ... -art-8.jpg

But yeah the quick reaction bays look good in concept, but I can imagine someone colliding with others during the quick launch.

[Seto Kaiba]

I was thinking more along the lines of this:

http://www.blacksheepproductions.net/wp ... -art-8.jpg

... which is an imitation of this, from the opening scenes of Macross: Do You Remember Love?.

(These days, they're trying to avoid overtly copying Macross.)

[eliakon]

Since I sort of doubt that the macros anime franchise invented all the tropes for space carrier warfare it shouldn't be to hard to not copy them.....

[Tiree]

I figure they would use a launch similar to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVhUcFgev-Q

[glitterboy2098]

Since I sort of doubt that the macros anime franchise invented all the tropes for space carrier warfare it shouldn't be to hard to not copy them.....

and DYRL seems likely to have been inspired by British Aerospace (known today as British Aerospace Engineering, or BAE), and their Skyhook program, meant to enable harriers to be launched from smaller vessels and with heavier arments than a VTOl deck launch. Skyhook was declassified and patented several years before DYRL was made, and Skyhook had been a big talking point in technical and military magazines and journals because of its unique nature.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/attachment.ph ... 1376311105
http://www.airvectors.net/avav8_3_07.jpg
http://www.combatreform.org/skyhookpatent3.jpg


most "space carrier" tropes are just wet-navy carrier tropes given a veneer of science fiction.

[Arnie100]

Launch tubes like in BSG is cool, but why not just "release" them from the hold like in Aliens, or Halo? Heck they could also do the hanger thin from Starwars with them just lifting up and fly straight into space from a two-way force-field.

You mean the way they did in the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA (and RT's New Generation), where they literally fire the Armo-Soldiers [Battloids] out into space, ripple-fire style, like missiles?

(The two-way force field thing doesn't seem to exist in Robotech... at least, among human technologies.)

I was thinking more along the lines of this:

http://www.blacksheepproductions.net/wp ... -art-8.jpg

But yeah the quick reaction bays look good in concept, but I can imagine someone colliding with others during the quick launch.

Is it me or do those fighters look loke Macross II VF-2s with SAP systems?

[ShadowLogan]

Is it me or do those fighters look loke Macross II VF-2s with SAP systems?

Those ARE Macross II VF-2s with SAP system. When RT 3000 work was being done they used Macross2 units as stand-ins in the pre-production material for the design(s) to come later. It was noted on another pre-production sheet (at least once), but not the one Chronicler linked to specifically.

[glitterboy2098]

they aren't quite SAP systems.. they have VF-1 style FAST packs instead of the cannon. but yeah.

[smkeyes]

After watching the animatics of the battle I realized my ship count is off.

Attack group 2
40 SDCV Ikazuchi-class Carrier
480 SDCL Garfish-class Light Cruiser
attack group 2 is divided into a right and left wing each consisting of 20 Carrier groups each.


Attack group 3
1 SDF-04 Liberator
4 SDBC Shimakaze-class Battlecruiser
21 SDCV Ikazuchi-class Carrier
288 SDCL Garfish-class Cruiser


Total capital ships in the space battle
1 SDF-04 Liberator
4 SDBC Shimakaze-class Battlecruiser
61 SDCV Ikazuchi-class Carrier
768 SDCL Garfish-class Cruiser

[Chronicler]

I figure they would use a launch similar to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVhUcFgev-Q

Thank you Tiree, been looking for something like that. The only other one I could think was the Aliens dropship and Halo's dropship deployment method but couldn't find an example of it in my search results. (I really need to see this show.)