Combining R.C.Cs and O.C.C.s?

[Meneliki]

A bit confused here. Some R.C.C.s sound like they are just played as-is, and some sound like they can be combined with any O.C.C., i.e. "..this RCC can choose just about any OCC..", etc.. while others are completely ambiguous about whether you can or cant.

Any clarification on this?

Thanks

[Q99]

A bit confused here. Some R.C.C.s sound like they are just played as-is, and some sound like they can be combined with any O.C.C., i.e. "..this RCC can choose just about any OCC..", etc.. while others are completely ambiguous about whether you can or cant.

Any clarification on this?

Thanks

It can be a bit confusing.

Most RCCs should, towards the bottom, say whether they allow other options.

If an RCC includes a full list of skills but doesn't say any others are possible, then that means that the race's skill options represent their whole variety in training options.

If it includes a full skill list but also includes the options for other OCCs, then that means the RCC's skills are effectively that species' default OCC, but it can be swapped out. Quite often, there's only a limited number available, but if so it'll say what is an option.

If it doesn't include a skill list, then just check to see which ones are available.

[Bill]

Q99 is correct. When a R.C.C. is intended to be combined with O.C.C.s recommendations and limitations (typically in regard to magic or psionics) will be outlined. Many are parsed in terms of feature powers and skills that all representatives of the race possess; true Atlanteans are an excellent example. Fewer will present the common racial class and indicate what other class options may be available. In my estimation, there are very few examples of classes that are completely restricted to a single racial package of skills.

That said, if you are the GM, I strongly recommend that you be flexible and willing to work with your players to help them realize the character concept that they want to play. This game is really only limited by your imagination and your willingness to make things up as you go.

[drewkitty ~..~]

A bit confused here. Some R.C.C.s sound like they are just played as-is, and some sound like they can be combined with any O.C.C., i.e. "..this RCC can choose just about any OCC..", etc.. while others are completely ambiguous about whether you can or cant.

Any clarification on this?

Thanks

That is because most people and PB just call "Races" by the RCC label,....

So what they are really saying is that they are combining a Race with racial abilities with a Character Class and it's abilities and skills.

[Nekira Sudacne]

A bit confused here. Some R.C.C.s sound like they are just played as-is, and some sound like they can be combined with any O.C.C., i.e. "..this RCC can choose just about any OCC..", etc.. while others are completely ambiguous about whether you can or cant.

Any clarification on this?

Thanks

Unfortunately it's muddled and you really have to take them on a case by case basis.

Some R.C.C.'s are actually Races and mislabeled. a "race" is simply a template other than human that can take any OCC (except those prohibited). an R.C.C. is both a racial template and a Class built into one. The primary difference is an R.C.C. has primary, Racial, and Secondary skills built in, while Races have either no natural skills or at best a few basic instinctual skills (Some races are innately good at climbing or tracking, for example, and so have those skills regardless of O.C.C. taken).

The primary difference is Races can have any available O.C.C. that is not specifically restricted to them (Typically only humans or very human-like races can become Juicers, for example), while R.C.C.'s, such as dragons, typically have no choice and all must be the same template.

There are exceptions. sometimes an R.C.C. will have a few skill packages to chose from. The Lyn-Srial for example, have a basic R.C.C. template, but also have two magic-using variants, the Sky Knight and the Cloudweaver. They can pick any one of the three, but ONLY the default "citizen" class or one of the specalized classes, nothing else.

[say652]

Most times in the Rcc+Occ nightmare I use two options.
Ummmm.. lets say DogPack+Super Rogue ScholAr. Most times just physical attributes, any power that has a zero isp cost, lose anything that costs isp. Done.
You are a Super Dogboy Scholar

Nightmare time.
"I want to keep my psionics...."

Dual power category Megahero??
Choose the better skill selections and divide xp between both rcc&occ.

"That will take forever to advance in levels."

Option (65)Two.

Alien power category.
Ummm Dogpack.
Pick education.
Yada yada yada.
Gear...
Done.


And since "Dogboy" is your "Alien Race" I allow in my game a power catergory as well.
In this Case.

Alien Mutant Science Specialist.

[say652]

Alien Experiment.

RahuMan Super Soldier.
Mind and Body Attuned.
Uncanny Targeting and Throwing.
Attempted invulnerable.
Minor power:Flight Wingless.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Race + OCC/PCC only gets tough is when the Racial Char Class is linked to the racial powers. Like the RCC's for the Psionic Races in South America 2. It is then that if the player wants to play that race that they would have to drop the racial powers. This is because the RCC represents how Every Individual is trained because they have their racial powers. It is then, when the racial powers and the skill set is linked, that to be a different Char Class that they would need to drop the racial powers also.

Otherwise it would be just a matter of dropping the RCC (read skill set) from the race and choosing an Char Class that is open to that race. Such as with the Dog Boys. Just drop the Psi-Hound RCC and the player picks a OCC. However, note that for a Dog Boy to have a PCC the PCC powers would replace the racial psi powers.

[say652]

Race + OCC/PCC only gets tough is when the Racial Char Class is linked to the racial powers. Like the RCC's for the Psionic Races in South America 2. It is then that if the player wants to play that race that they would have to drop the racial powers. This is because the RCC represents how Every Individual is trained because they have their racial powers. It is then, when the racial powers and the skill set is linked, that to be a different Char Class that they would need to drop the racial powers also.

Otherwise it would be just a matter of dropping the RCC (read skill set) from the race and choosing an Char Class that is open to that race. Such as with the Dog Boys. Just drop the Psi-Hound RCC and the player picks a OCC. However, note that for a Dog Boy to have a PCC the PCC powers would replace the racial psi powers.

And by the flipside of this argument, I personally allow other races such as humans to have the Flying Tigers psychic powers but since he's a human severly reduced stats.for easy experience tables I would hace the character advance as a Psionic Power Category character.
So a small frail non feline Flting Tiger. For a backround I'd make him from Amuaga and name him Mouse. Lol

[drewkitty ~..~]

Race + OCC/PCC only gets tough is when the Racial Char Class is linked to the racial powers. Like the RCC's for the Psionic Races in South America 2. It is then that if the player wants to play that race that they would have to drop the racial powers. This is because the RCC represents how Every Individual is trained because they have their racial powers. It is then, when the racial powers and the skill set is linked, that to be a different Char Class that they would need to drop the racial powers also.

Otherwise it would be just a matter of dropping the RCC (read skill set) from the race and choosing an Char Class that is open to that race. Such as with the Dog Boys. Just drop the Psi-Hound RCC and the player picks a OCC. However, note that for a Dog Boy to have a PCC the PCC powers would replace the racial psi powers.

And by the flipside of this argument, I personally allow other races such as humans to have the Flying Tigers psychic powers but since he's a human severely reduced stats.for easy experience tables I would have the character advance as a Psionic Power Category character.
So a small frail non feline Flying Tiger. For a background I'd make him from Amuaga and name him Mouse. Lol

hummm.... What I said was that they can only have one PCC power set. Not two power sets. So what makes what you said the flip side of what I said? Or was it you just taking artistic license in your opening line?

Canonly speaking those psi powers unique to a race are unique to that race. Unless there is specific text alouwing the sharing of said powers. Sort of like the Mind Bleeder powers.
However, your house rules seams to let players 'Be All They Can Be' even though they are not really up to playing a non-human.

[say652]

Tried it.
Being a 5'6" 150lb dude surrounded by eight foot Tiger Dudes.....yea buncha *censored*

Again yes power levels are ridiculous but, if you only have combat every five to seven sessions.......

[Tor]

Basically there's 1-2 ways to start as a combo...

1) the RCC says you can select the OCC
2) the OCC says you can be a member of the RCC

Aside from that, you could otherwise only do it by starting as the RCC and then using the OCC changing rules Palladium has published to gain it later.

I'm also not totally sure about number 2.

Although we are told there are Dog Boy and Psi-Stalker Cyber-Knights, for all I know they were guys who started off as Dog Boy or Psi-Stalker in class and later changed to the Cyber-Knight OCC (similar to how Dunscon went and did LLW>Shifter)

[Nox Equites]

Changing classes gets wonky when you have overlap of abilities like between two caster or psychic types.

[drewkitty ~..~]

According to the published changing class rules concerning Psychic char classes are clear, if hard to find. Can't change from a PCC, nor can you change to a PCC.
The thing most people do not do in to translate the labeling format to fit the format the rules are written for.

Now with Dogboys and Psi-Stalker it is a bit murky cause while the racial powers are psionics. But the Races' RCCs might just be considered OCC's if they were not restricted to a race.

The other thing to consider is whether or not the Cyberknight is a OCC as it is labeled or is it really a PCC that is mislabeled.

[Tor]

According to the published changing class rules concerning Psychic char classes are clear, if hard to find.
Can't change from a PCC, nor can you change to a PCC.

Both wrong. Many PCCs are also referred to as being OCCs if you look around enough. Collectively we've even been told the term PCC/psychic character class is short for psychic OCC or psychic occupational character class. PF does that.

Until we're actually told explicitly that PCCs are out, the rule using the catch-all OCC doesn't exclude them.

[drewkitty ~..~]

According to the published changing class rules concerning Psychic char classes are clear, if hard to find.
Can't change from a PCC, nor can you change to a PCC.

Both wrong. Many PCCs are also referred to as being OCCs if you look around enough. Collectively we've even been told the term PCC/psychic character class is short for psychic OCC or psychic occupational character class. PF does that.

Until we're actually told explicitly that PCCs are out, the rule using the catch-all OCC doesn't exclude them.

saying everything as we were informed.....
.....Collectively we've even been informed in RUE that the PCC label has been changed to the POCC label IN RIFTS! for stylistic reasons. And that for stylistic reasons all the BTS2 CC's will be using just the PCC label.
----------------------------------------------
That is just TWO settings and nether of them have the published canon changing class rules in them. The setting that does have then in it still uses the OCC and PCC labels without stylistic reasons. So I am correct in stating that CC's from setting other the PFRPG2 should have their labeling converted (having their "for stylistic reasons" stripped away and looking at the text of the CC to see what it really is) to that of the PF2 setting before the published canon changing class rules can be properly used.

Yes, when talking about the published canon changing class rules the canon rules and labeling set automatically changes to the PF2 default, ignoring the Rifts canon, for the purpose of changing the Chars class.

[Tor]

The setting that does have then in it still uses the OCC and PCC labels without stylistic reasons.
..
when talking about the published canon changing class rules the canon rules and labeling set automatically changes to the PF2 default

As brought up in previous threads, PF2 has in numerous pages informed us that PCCs are a form of OCC.

20:
*select one of the psychic Occupational Character classes, like the Mind Mage OCC"

62:
*List of OCCs: Psychics - Mind Mage / Psi-Healer / Psi-Mystic / Psychic Sensitive

155:
*Who Has Psionic Powers: All Psychic Character Classes ... Characters of other OCCs may possess
*Savings Throws Against Psionic Attacks: "Master psionic characters, including all psychic OCCS or PCCs"

289 and 291:
*Occupational Character Classes (OCCs and PCCs)

300:
*OCCs Available to Goblins: .. the occasional psychic

308:
*OCCs Available to Trolls: Any, except psychic PCCS and illusionist

Each one of these consistently supports PCCs being OCCs.

Now where are we told that PCCs are not OCCS?

[Crow Splat]

According to the published changing class rules concerning Psychic char classes are clear, if hard to find. Can't change from a PCC, nor can you change to a PCC.
The thing most people do not do in to translate the labeling format to fit the format the rules are written for.

Now with Dogboys and Psi-Stalker it is a bit murky cause while the racial powers are psionics. But the Races' RCCs might just be considered OCC's if they were not restricted to a race.

The other thing to consider is whether or not the Cyberknight is a OCC as it is labeled or is it really a PCC that is mislabeled.

I'm a little confused on what you are getting at in regards to dog boys. Are you saying that you take away all their special powers if they take another OCC?

If so, that is incorrect per Lone Star. Dog boys get to take any OCC and keep all special abilities from the numbered list in the description.

This muddies the waters for all similar instances of RCC taking an OCC when they have a list of racial abilities as well since this is the only example I can find where they are explicitly kept.

[Nightmask]

According to the published changing class rules concerning Psychic char classes are clear, if hard to find. Can't change from a PCC, nor can you change to a PCC.
The thing most people do not do in to translate the labeling format to fit the format the rules are written for.

Now with Dogboys and Psi-Stalker it is a bit murky cause while the racial powers are psionics. But the Races' RCCs might just be considered OCC's if they were not restricted to a race.

The other thing to consider is whether or not the Cyberknight is a OCC as it is labeled or is it really a PCC that is mislabeled.

I'm a little confused on what you are getting at in regards to dog boys. Are you saying that you take away all their special powers if they take another OCC?

If so, that is incorrect per Lone Star. Dog boys get to take any OCC and keep all special abilities from the numbered list in the description.

This muddies the waters for all similar instances of RCC taking an OCC when they have a list of racial abilities as well since this is the only example I can find where they are explicitly kept.

His argument is a moot point anyway, since Palladium did away with the idea of a special class like PCC making them all OCC (and since their special powers are their natural abilities for how they're engineered they'd still end up keeping them since they aren't trained abilities they're inborn like their enhanced senses and claws). So everything with a PCC label in older books is mislabeled and should be considered an OCC, and classes like the Cyber-Knight show that some psychic powers can be trained rather than having to be natural to the being in question.

[drewkitty ~..~]

According to the published changing class rules concerning Psychic char classes are clear, if hard to find. Can't change from a PCC, nor can you change to a PCC.
The thing most people do not do in to translate the labeling format to fit the format the rules are written for.

Now with Dogboys and Psi-Stalker it is a bit murky cause while the racial powers are psionics. But the Races' RCCs might just be considered OCC's if they were not restricted to a race.

The other thing to consider is whether or not the Cyberknight is a OCC as it is labeled or is it really a PCC that is mislabeled.

I'm a little confused on what you are getting at in regards to dog boys. Are you saying that you take away all their special powers if they take another OCC?

If so, that is incorrect per Lone Star. Dog boys get to take any OCC and keep all special abilities from the numbered list in the description.

This muddies the waters for all similar instances of RCC taking an OCC when they have a list of racial abilities as well since this is the only example I can find where they are explicitly kept.

The Dog Boy's and Psi-Stalker powers are OBVIOUSLY linked to the Race and not the Char Class. I didn't think I'd need to making that point abundantly clear, even though it was referenced to in inference.

The point I was making was that some GMs might think that the DG or PS RCCs are also PCCs in addition to being RCCs because the racial powers are psionic in nature.
-------
Some Races that their RCCs that are also PCCs can be found in the South America 2 rifts worldbook. The "mutant" animals just before the Neo-humans. With those races. Yes, they are stuck in their racial RCC/PCC while they still have their racial powers.
------
How to tell the difference between the two: if the race has Mulitiple CCs created for them or if there is a list of allowable Char Classes then they are like Dog Boys and the psi powers and CC are NOT linked.

Otherwise the psi powers and CC ARE linked.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Tor, we have been over this before. Even if PCC's are refereneced as OCC in "The Writer is Talking about ALL Character Classes in a genrlized way" since then the writer is just "Talking about all Chararcter Classesin a genrlized way". And.....As it has been pointed out to you Multiple times in PF the PCCs are not covered by the OCC Changing Class Rules BY SPECIFIC TEXT SAYING SO!!!!

[13eowulf]

The Super-Spy O.C.C. from Mercenaries and Gladiator O.C.C. form Mercenary Adventures have text that can easily be interpreted to allow any Race/R.C.C. (or whatever you want to call it) to take that O.C.C. regardless of other descriptions or restrictions on such selections.

So so if you are looking to combine an R.C.C./race with an O.C.C. one of these two will always allow it.

[Tor]

Tor, we have been over this before. Even if PCC's are refereneced as OCC in "The Writer is Talking about ALL Character Classes in a genrlized way" since then the writer is just "Talking about all Chararcter Classesin a genrlized way". And.....As it has been pointed out to you Multiple times in PF the PCCs are not covered by the OCC Changing Class Rules BY SPECIFIC TEXT SAYING SO!!!!

The specific text preventing multiple OCCs under some (the main book) PCCs does not apply to other PCCs which lack that text.

If a writer wanted to talk about all character classes they could write "Character Classes" or "CCs" which is shorter than "Occupational Character Classes" or "OCCs".

I don't recall either the [url=http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cuttingroom/oops/dualocc.html]PF2nd Dual OCC cutting-room data[/ur] or the thing in that book with the ships to exclude PCCs explicitly, which would be required if you wanted to exclude any which lack the 'no multiple' text the PF core classes individually list. The cutting-room stuff also mentions being able to switch from an RCC to an OCC.

[say652]

The megahero rules from rifter #37.

[Bill]

This discussion has veered into counterproductive bickering. Please, stop.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The specific text preventing multiple OCCs under some (the main book) PCCs does not apply to other PCCs which lack that text.

I might just agree with you if that was correct.
Since every single PCC in every PFRPG 2nd ed book have said precluding text in it, that does mean there has been a continuing effort to make sure that PCCs can not change their class within the PF2 rules.

Sorry Bill but I had to correct Tor's misstatement.

note: I do not have the byzantium book so I can not check it for any but none are listed in the store's descriptive text.

[wyrmraker]

An example that I use is the Gurgoyle Psynetic Crazy. Gurgoyles get RCC skills, secondary skills, psychic powers, and use the Psi-Stalker XP chart. How do I, canonically, go about adding Psynetic Crazy (allowed in the Mindwerks Sourcebook, page 21) to that base template?

[drewkitty ~..~]

An example that I use is the Gurgoyle Psynetic Crazy. Gurgoyles get RCC skills, secondary skills, psychic powers, and use the Psi-Stalker XP chart. How do I, canonically, go about adding Psynetic Crazy (allowed in the Mindwerks Sourcebook, page 21) to that base template?

trick question.
You would follow the text set out in Mindworks for MOMs.

[wyrmraker]

Going by that advice, I would roll up a full Gurgoyle warrior, then just add all of Psynetic Crazy on top of it. I am not seeing any other way in the Mindwerks book.

[Alrik Vas]

Seems good. Go forth and Crazy.

[wyrmraker]

Seems good. Go forth and Crazy.

I absolutely would, if my usual Palladium GM 1) would allow it ("It's too powerful!") and 2) he would range outside of his beloved Heroes Unlimited.

[Tor]

Since every single PCC in every PFRPG 2nd ed book have said precluding text in it, that does mean there has been a continuing effort to make sure that PCCs can not change their class within the PF2 rules. Sorry Bill but I had to correct Tor's misstatement.

All of the PCCs in PF2's main book are "some" of the collective number of PCCS which exist in Palladium as a whole.

If there was a place to introduce a generic rule preventing PCCs changing class, it would be at the start of the PCC section or under the changing OCCs rule.

Introducing rules under individual classes are because those rules are for the individual class, not a generic rule.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Since every single PCC in every PFRPG 2nd ed book have said precluding text in it, that does mean there has been a continuing effort to make sure that PCCs can not change their class within the PF2 rules. Sorry Bill but I had to correct Tor's misstatement.

All of the PCCs in PF2's main book are "some" of the collective number of PCCS which exist in Palladium as a whole.

If there was a place to introduce a generic rule preventing PCCs changing class, it would be at the start of the PCC section or under the changing OCCs rule.

Introducing rules under individual classes are because those rules are for the individual class, not a generic rule.

And you were using the way you describe the numbers of PCCs and their included prohibitions to imply that not all the PCCs in the PF2 books had said prohibition. Thus giving your arguments a tiny foothold to stand on. I was correcting that. There is No toehold for your arguments to stand on within the PFRPG 2nd ed rules.

In ALL the PCC's in ALL the PFRPG 2nd ed books there are listed in each one text that disallows characters with any of those character classes from changing from that class. And as the text is written, it also disallows other CC from changing to any PCC's. It is These specific texts that makes it that the changing class rules in the PF HS book Specifically do not cover PCC's.


Now Bill would like this argument to end. please allow it to end.

[eliakon]

Since every single PCC in every PFRPG 2nd ed book have said precluding text in it, that does mean there has been a continuing effort to make sure that PCCs can not change their class within the PF2 rules. Sorry Bill but I had to correct Tor's misstatement.

All of the PCCs in PF2's main book are "some" of the collective number of PCCS which exist in Palladium as a whole.

If there was a place to introduce a generic rule preventing PCCs changing class, it would be at the start of the PCC section or under the changing OCCs rule.

Introducing rules under individual classes are because those rules are for the individual class, not a generic rule.

And you were using the way you describe the numbers of PCCs and their included prohibitions to imply that not all the PCCs in the PF2 books had said prohibition. Thus giving your arguments a tiny foothold to stand on. I was correcting that. There is No toehold for your arguments to stand on within the PFRPG 2nd ed rules.

In ALL the PCC's in ALL the PFRPG 2nd ed books there are listed in each one text that disallows characters with any of those character classes from changing from that class. And as the text is written, it also disallows other CC from changing to any PCC's. It is These specific texts that makes it that the changing class rules in the PF HS book Specifically do not cover PCC's.


Now Bill would like this argument to end. please allow it to end.

Just a thought here.....
If you want something to end, then arguing it to try and get the last word in is NOT how you do it......
Actually that would seem to be purposefully ignoring his request to argue it some more....

Especially since we all know that this argument is not going to be settled. It has been fought out dozens of time in dozens of threads. The arguments are exactly the same on both side, every time. With out new information to change peoples minds each side has already come to their personal view of what the rules mean and are not going to be swayed.......
The argument is no longer a rules argument based on logic and sources but has moved into the realm of theology based on opinions and feelings. Which is why I agree with Bill that it should be dropped/moved to its own thread and not hijack other threads.

[Tor]

you were using the way you describe the numbers of PCCs and their included prohibitions to imply that not all the PCCs in the PF2 books had said prohibition.

Nope, I specifically said those that do not note otherwise, so I was talking about ones outside the main book.

There is No toehold for your arguments to stand on within the PFRPG 2nd ed rules.

Wrong, PF2nd clearly states PCCs are OCCs. The PCCs in the main book happen to not allow multiple OCCs. PCCs elsewhere which do not state this is outlawed on the other hand, are able to multi-class.

[quote="drewkitty ~..~"]In ALL the PCC's in ALL the PFRPG 2nd ed books there are listed in each one text that disallows characters with any of those character classes from changing from that class.

Page 19 of Old Ones does indeed say "Multiple O.C.C.S are not possible." for the Psi-Illusionist. Can't recall off-hand if there were any non-main PCCs in the PF world book line to check.

Even so, still a class-specific forbidance. Not a problem with BTS or MC or NB one since they lack it.