Ninjas in Dead Reign...

[say652]

Hardly overpowered, 7.5 billion people on earth most of them zombies, for some odd reason bonuses to strike do not apply vs AR, and in mdc environments they are even more deadly with supernatural strength, mdc, immunity to energy!!
AND keep their Armor Rating.

Um, these things are Mechaniod level threats.
No such thing as overpowered when fighting them.

When we played zombie adventures, it's at least a Three Megahero team for me to play.

[SittingBull]

Hardly overpowered, 7.5 billion people on earth most of them zombies, for some odd reason bonuses to strike do not apply vs AR, and in mdc environments they are even more deadly with supernatural strength, mdc, immunity to energy!!
AND keep their Armor Rating.

Um, these things are Mechaniod level threats.
No such thing as overpowered when fighting them.

When we played zombie adventures, it's at least a Three Megahero team for me to play.

If the ninja is in Dead reign, your goal IS NOT to fight zombies. Zombies are the backdrop.

[SittingBull]

Zombies in rifts would be pointless. People have tech OR magic, both hand zombies find (zombies biggest defense if their AR).

And yet Chaos Earth: Resurrection will be exactly that.

Still sad choice for a Chaos Earth book.

[filo_clarke]

If the ninja is in Dead reign, your goal IS NOT to fight zombies. Zombies are the backdrop.

Precisely!

[Tor]

for some odd reason bonuses to strike do not apply vs AR.

Where you getting that?

You may need natural rolls to make a head/neck strike but I'm pretty sure you can apply your strike bonuses to make called shots on other locations like limbs or to damage the main body.

[say652]

Hey these things can handle 1200md and unless you roll a 17 they're fine. Lol.
Or a point blank shot from a Glitterboy. Pfft.

[Zer0 Kay]

Zombies in rifts would be pointless. People have tech OR magic, both hand zombies find (zombies biggest defense if their AR).

And yet Chaos Earth: Resurrection will be exactly that.

Still sad choice for a Chaos Earth book.

I agreeeeeee so many other things, heck even bringing back the bugs from system failure would have been better.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hardly overpowered, 7.5 billion people on earth most of them zombies, for some odd reason bonuses to strike do not apply vs AR, and in mdc environments they are even more deadly with supernatural strength, mdc, immunity to energy!!
AND keep their Armor Rating.

Um, these things are Mechaniod level threats.
No such thing as overpowered when fighting them.

When we played zombie adventures, it's at least a Three Megahero team for me to play.

Well DR isn't in an MDC environment and bonuses do apply to AR IIRC and I don't use the silliness from the other books, except the giant super strong zombie, and I house rule that a pointblank to the head doesn't have to deal with the AR, which essentially represents the characters chances of hitting something vital.

I figure the zombie lore skill reduces the zombies AR as the character should know where to aim/strike in order to make it count.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hey these things can handle 1200md and unless you roll a 17 they're fine. Lol.
Or a point blank shot from a Glitterboy. Pfft.

well 1200 MD to a stomach or intestines you don't use anymore should do nothing. An explosion of 1200 MD on the other hand should have a reduced AR even lower if it is a frag vs. just an HE grenade.

[say652]

1200mdc to a main body would mean no chest cavity,spine etc.

[SittingBull]

Zombies in rifts would be pointless. People have tech OR magic, both hand zombies find (zombies biggest defense if their AR).

And yet Chaos Earth: Resurrection will be exactly that.

Still sad choice for a Chaos Earth book.

I agreeeeeee so many other things, heck even bringing back the bugs from system failure would have been better.

We agree to disagree there.

[SittingBull]

Hardly overpowered, 7.5 billion people on earth most of them zombies, for some odd reason bonuses to strike do not apply vs AR, and in mdc environments they are even more deadly with supernatural strength, mdc, immunity to energy!!
AND keep their Armor Rating.

Um, these things are Mechaniod level threats.
No such thing as overpowered when fighting them.

When we played zombie adventures, it's at least a Three Megahero team for me to play.

Well DR isn't in an MDC environment and bonuses do apply to AR IIRC and I don't use the silliness from the other books, except the giant super strong zombie, and I house rule that a pointblank to the head doesn't have to deal with the AR, which essentially represents the characters chances of hitting something vital.

I figure the zombie lore skill reduces the zombies AR as the character should know where to aim/strike in order to make it count.

Interesting idea on the zombie lore.

[SittingBull]

1200mdc to a main body would mean no chest cavity,spine etc.

Main body does not always mean, at least to me, that its a dead center hit.

[say652]

If a hole tw and a half feet in circumference is placed over a three foot wide object, then every thing in that radius removed, then I feel whats left can attempt to Zombie at some sort of combat penalty.

[SittingBull]

If a hole tw and a half feet in circumference is placed over a three foot wide object, then every thing in that radius removed, then I feel whats left can attempt to Zombie at some sort of combat penalty.

See I see the whole round hitting the as max damage, while if you roll minimum damage then the target was only grazed by the round or energy blast.

[Tor]

Hey these things can handle 1200md and unless you roll a 17 they're fine. Lol.

Where does it talk about natural AR still applying to MD attacks like this?

[SittingBull]

The 17 or higher is for called head shots, by dead reign, on a straight roll.

[Tor]

Huh... MD bypasses AR, but technically, requiring a natural roll to succeed to make a called shot isn't an AR so MD would not bypass it, you're right

Although: if you do enough damage, you can take out the main body in 1 shot so they go into healing sasis, and then have all the time in the world to whack away at an unresisting opponent until you get the required natural roll.

Does impede with sniping guys in groups though.

Also the need to make a natural roll I think only applies to guns not melee attacks.

[SittingBull]

Tor, it appears Dead Reign zombie, in a magic rich environment will become MD AND have an AR.

[say652]

Sharpshooter bonuses apply.
Sniper bonuses apply.
Called shot bonuses apply.
Bionic,robot bonuses to strike with distance weapons apply.
Super power bonuses to strike apply.
Hand to hand bonuses apply in hand to hand.

And area effect attacks at reduced Ar.
Supernatural Creatures strike against lower Ar.

The key is fragmentation explosives and area effect machine gun fire. Fire is useless.
Channel them to narrow and defeat them in melee one on one, lots of ways to beat them in a fair fight.

[SittingBull]

According to Dead Reign rules:

sharpshooter bonuses do not apply.
Sniper bonuses do not apply.
Called shot bonuses do not apply.
Bionic, robot bonuses to strike with distance weapons do not apply.
Super power bonuses do to not apply.
Hand to hand bonuses do not apply.

BY DEAD REIGN RULES head shots on zombies is NATURAL ROLL only but do what you want usually is what happens in these situations. Dont like a rule, change it.

[say652]

So natural Ar vs straight roll.
Nothing else did damage.
Critical hits?
Death blow?
And bonuses to strike apply. Regardless of the target and excessive damage will destroy the main body.
Knock down?
Knock back?
Impervious energy.
Supernatural Strength.
Mdc.
Regenerates.
Ppe vision. Does this detect isp?
Moan, Summons more.


How do they turn others?
Is the bite infectious?

Can severed limbs attack or reattach?

I'm all about them having an Ar, but I feel the rules to strike Ar should apply.

Compromise give them +5-9 to the existing Ar.

Striking against a 22-26 natural Ar is Fair.

[say652]

Also a super power, that gives the ability to Ignore targets Ar and deal 5 damage per level should apply. Breaking Blow. I think some martial arts give this ability as well.
Physical training power category Power strikes most definitely would hurt a zombie, Sea Inquisitor, phase attacks, supernatural strength all should damage a zombie, juries out on Cosmo knights blast, weapon.

[say652]

Almost forgot Particle Beam Weapon Systems deal half damage, the disintegrate effect.

[SittingBull]

Just remember the AR on an MD zombie is to reflect you hitting something, that the zombie doesnt 'need' to remain 'undead'. Yes you can blow of both arms, both legs, and even the main body; but the zombie will still be "alive so to say". Even if the main body is depleted; the zombie will regenerate soon, even without ppe, as will any body location still attached. Only depleting the hit points of the brain will forever stop a zombie.

[say652]

Lots easier to shoot or step on a biting head instead of a biting zombie.

[SittingBull]

If you forgot or overlook a 'biting head', having just destroyed the main body, after 1 hour it will be back up and moving.

[Tor]

Tor, it appears Dead Reign zombie, in a magic rich environment will become MD AND have an AR.

Their having an AR would not matter though, since MD explicitly bypasses natural ARs. It doesn't only say natural ARs on SDC targets, far as I know.

However needing a natural number to make a called shot to head or neck is certainly not AR so they would still have that...

Which means everything IMO since that is their central survival advantage.

Though I do wonder about the extent of this... like if you deplete their main body's HP (the head has a separate identical HP pool) it doesn't so much mist their torso, just knock it out of commission. It will still regenerate...

But you have to figure at some point, even if you could never manage to called-shot the head or the neck, that enoguh damage would mist the torso beyond composability.

Like eventually... it would be like an automatic beheading since even though you didn't hit the neck to server the head, there's nothing actually left for the neck to attach to.

I'm just not sure how much that would take. I'd like to think one of the main guns on a Kreeghor Dreadnought could manage it though.

According to Dead Reign rules:

sharpshooter bonuses do not apply.
Sniper bonuses do not apply.
Called shot bonuses do not apply.
Bionic, robot bonuses to strike with distance weapons do not apply.
Super power bonuses do to not apply.
Hand to hand bonuses do not apply.

BY DEAD REIGN RULES head shots on zombies is NATURAL ROLL only but do what you want usually is what happens in these situations. Dont like a rule, change it.

There is one POSSIBLE way around all this which we could discuss.

Since we're discussing Bionic/Robot/Super-Power stuff and this is a "Ninjas" thread, the "Martial Arts Technique" from Ninjas and Superspies of One Life One Shot One Hit One Kill could be useful.

I believe it explicitly allows strike bonuses to apply as if it were a natural roll for the purpose of accomplishing a critical hit.

Where I'm stuck though is... would it also apply for the purposes of making a called shot?

Also a super power, that gives the ability to Ignore targets Ar and deal 5 damage per level should apply.

The ability to ignore AR (a couple Between the Shadows OCCs in Nightbane have this) would certainly help with damaging the zombie's main body.

But the natural rolls needed to hit neck/head are not an armor rating so I don't think it would help there.

Breaking Blow. I think some martial arts give this ability as well.

Same, for main but not neck or head, since you need to hit to break.

Physical training power category Power strikes most definitely would hurt a zombie, Sea Inquisitor, phase attacks, supernatural strength all should damage a zombie, juries out on Cosmo knights blast, weapon.

For the main body, I guess, just not for the called shots to the head required to kill the thing in a go.

But if you take the zombie out by wrecking its main body, you have about an hour to make the required natural rolls to hit it.

If you forgot or overlook a 'biting head', having just destroyed the main body, after 1 hour it will be back up and moving.

I'd go for destroying the jaw before trying to make called shots on the head itself, if I were trying to stomp on it.

[SittingBull]

Tor, it appears Dead Reign zombie, in a magic rich environment will become MD AND have an AR.

Their having an AR would not matter though, since MD explicitly bypasses natural ARs. It doesn't only say natural ARs on SDC targets, far as I know.

However needing a natural number to make a called shot to head or neck is certainly not AR so they would still have that...

Which means everything IMO since that is their central survival advantage.

Though I do wonder about the extent of this... like if you deplete their main body's HP (the head has a separate identical HP pool) it doesn't so much mist their torso, just knock it out of commission. It will still regenerate...

But you have to figure at some point, even if you could never manage to called-shot the head or the neck, that enoguh damage would mist the torso beyond composability.

Like eventually... it would be like an automatic beheading since even though you didn't hit the neck to server the head, there's nothing actually left for the neck to attach to.

I'm just not sure how much that would take. I'd like to think one of the main guns on a Kreeghor Dreadnought could manage it though.

According to Dead Reign rules:

sharpshooter bonuses do not apply.
Sniper bonuses do not apply.
Called shot bonuses do not apply.
Bionic, robot bonuses to strike with distance weapons do not apply.
Super power bonuses do to not apply.
Hand to hand bonuses do not apply.

BY DEAD REIGN RULES head shots on zombies is NATURAL ROLL only but do what you want usually is what happens in these situations. Dont like a rule, change it.

There is one POSSIBLE way around all this which we could discuss.

Since we're discussing Bionic/Robot/Super-Power stuff and this is a "Ninjas" thread, the "Martial Arts Technique" from Ninjas and Superspies of One Life One Shot One Hit One Kill could be useful.

I believe it explicitly allows strike bonuses to apply as if it were a natural roll for the purpose of accomplishing a critical hit.

Where I'm stuck though is... would it also apply for the purposes of making a called shot?

Also a super power, that gives the ability to Ignore targets Ar and deal 5 damage per level should apply.

The ability to ignore AR (a couple Between the Shadows OCCs in Nightbane have this) would certainly help with damaging the zombie's main body.

But the natural rolls needed to hit neck/head are not an armor rating so I don't think it would help there.

Breaking Blow. I think some martial arts give this ability as well.

Same, for main but not neck or head, since you need to hit to break.

Physical training power category Power strikes most definitely would hurt a zombie, Sea Inquisitor, phase attacks, supernatural strength all should damage a zombie, juries out on Cosmo knights blast, weapon.

For the main body, I guess, just not for the called shots to the head required to kill the thing in a go.

But if you take the zombie out by wrecking its main body, you have about an hour to make the required natural rolls to hit it.

If you forgot or overlook a 'biting head', having just destroyed the main body, after 1 hour it will be back up and moving.

I'd go for destroying the jaw before trying to make called shots on the head itself, if I were trying to stomp on it.

Zombies do not have HP in their main body, only in their head.

[say652]

We have established the main body can be destroyed.
Leaving a vulnerable head to attack for an hour.

[Eric42]

Zombies do not have HP in their main body, only in their head.

Not true. P. 37 states "To get to the Hit Points, however, the attacker must either deplete all the Main Body S.D.C. first and continue the attack on the attack on the body, or deplete all the S.D.C. of the head first, and continue the attack on the head and brains."

It isn't the head or the body that HP, but it is the zombie as a whole that has hp and you go through either the head or the body to get to 'em.

[say652]

So in a mdc realm, 1200md would in fact vaporize a zombie.
Booo Yaaaahhhh!!

[SittingBull]

I see this discussion isn't going anywhere.

[eliakon]

So in a mdc realm, 1200md would in fact vaporize a zombie.
Booo Yaaaahhhh!!

Yes it would. It wouldn't permanently kill it since the head would still (presumably) be around to regenerate the thing, but it would stop it temporarily. Note that you combine the zombies SDC and HP to get its MDC. Then you need to hit it with a weapon that can harm zombies (railgun to the head, magic weapon, spell, fire, etc.). Its not difficult if you read the conversion notes......

[Tor]

Zombies do not have HP in their main body, only in their head.

Not true. P. 37 states "To get to the Hit Points, however, the attacker must either deplete all the Main Body S.D.C. first and continue the attack on the attack on the body, or deplete all the S.D.C. of the head first, and continue the attack on the head and brains."

It isn't the head or the body that HP, but it is the zombie as a whole that has hp and you go through either the head or the body to get to 'em.

I believe that there is reason to argue that zombies have 2 distinct pools of identical HP, one in the brain and one in the main body.

On page 37 is mentions that if wreck the main body's SDC then reduce HP to 0 or below, the zombie stops moving, falls over and appears dead, but that they can still regenerate.

The key phrase is previous though:

the skull is fractured

If an attack inflicts damage equivalent to the zombie's full Hit Points (even if it has already suffered previous Hit Point damage) the skull shatters and the brains are destroyed.

This not only establishes that having taken HP damage after the main body has no effect, but something even scarier I didn't even notice before.

Due to the singular 'an attack' having to inflict the 'full' hit points, this means you can't just whittle them down. They don't have an HP pool so much as an HP minimum.

A sloucher's minimum PE of 16 means that you need to inflict a minimum damage of 16 (requiring a natural 17+ to strike, no less) to get the skull-shatter and brain-destroy. I don't know any other way of doing it, unless you want to go for the "inflict triple their SDC" which is even harder.

For a lot of weapons, this is only going to be feasible if you get the triple damage on the natural 20, which would allow even a 1D6 weapon to kill the brains of some zombies, if it rolled highest.

So none of that "I rolled a natural 17, 18, 19, and inflicted 1 HP every time, for 16 hits" stuff, I guess. No spreading it out. One hit only

That's a lot of bashing to do, making it all the more important to immobilize them via main body HP depletion, beheading, entanglement, dismemberment, etc. It being this time-consuming to wreck heads makes it more understandable why so many get left behind for Death Cultists.

People may not have the time or energy to smash these heads enough times to get the skull-shatter, and since the safest way to make that time for yourself without threats (since you're going to have to do this in melee range unless you want to waste a lot of ammo) is to disable the zombie first, meaning (due to the difficulty of beheading) probably knocking it into dormancy by depleting the main body.

With the zombie already dormant, there's no clear indicator of when you've bashed the brains enough to shatter the skull and confirm a kill. There's probably a lot of cases of people thinking they did it enough, but falling short of what is necessary, since zombie skulls are just so darn tough.