New Marine Book

[Kagashi]

And how many ways are we going to spell Wolf/Wolfe/Wolff?

[SRoss]

Archon: Not a bad design, though it feels to me late 2030s-2040s design.

Actually, it looked like they renamed the Destablizer Tank

[Arnie100]

Archon: Not a bad design, though it feels to me late 2030s-2040s design.

Actually, it looked like they renamed the Destablizer Tank

And its an APC, now.

[glitterboy2098]

and something totally unrelated since it's 400% bigger now with nothing in common with the destablizer tank of the video game

[Arnie100]

I think this is one of those "its been so long, we gotta get a book out or fans will be pissed" kinda thing. Hopefully we won't have to wait another FIVE years or something to get another new book. Its not a BAD book; per se, its got some good stuff...it just feels rushed.

[Seto Kaiba]

Making the Marine Corps Breetai's personal fiefdom is interesting. I like it, but it also brings up the question of why he would feel compelled to create an organization so clearly based on the USMC specifically (its not like that's the only MC out there, and there doesn't seem much Zentraedi thinking in it).

Just putting this out there as a possibility, but Irving Jackson may have been taking pointers from the Macross setting there in the absence of any official guidance from Robotech's setting. Nothing is said in Prelude or The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles about the Breetai's rank or the nature of his assignment, but in Macross the UN Spacy Marines are an organization modeled very heavily upon the US Marine Corps and also happen to have very prominently featured all-Zentradi units (most notably the NUNS 33rd Marines from Macross Frontier, but references to them go back as far as Macross II).

[Lt Gargoyle]

I think this is one of those "its been so long, we gotta get a book out or fans will be pissed" kinda thing. Hopefully we won't have to wait another FIVE years or something to get another new book. Its not a BAD book; per se, its got some good stuff...it just feels rushed.

I would not count on anything sooner. After all the flames from the fans, i would think the staff might pull away from it.

And how many ways are we going to spell Wolf/Wolfe/Wolff?

I say 10. i agree. there is a point where they can stop.

Making the Marine Corps Breetai's personal fiefdom is interesting. I like it, but it also brings up the question of why he would feel compelled to create an organization so clearly based on the USMC specifically (its not like that's the only MC out there, and there doesn't seem much Zentraedi thinking in it).

Just putting this out there as a possibility, but Irving Jackson may have been taking pointers from the Macross setting there in the absence of any official guidance from Robotech's setting. Nothing is said in Prelude or The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles about the Breetai's rank or the nature of his assignment, but in Macross the UN Spacy Marines are an organization modeled very heavily upon the US Marine Corps and also happen to have very prominently featured all-Zentradi units (most notably the NUNS 33rd Marines from Macross Frontier, but references to them go back as far as Macross II).

This would make lots of sense.

[mech798]

I think this is one of those "its been so long, we gotta get a book out or fans will be pissed" kinda thing. Hopefully we won't have to wait another FIVE years or something to get another new book. Its not a BAD book; per se, its got some good stuff...it just feels rushed.

I would not count on anything sooner. After all the flames from the fans, i would think the staff might pull away from it.

They might have other reasons for that-- working with liensed properties is a pain. Palladium has no lack of IP's they own out right, so it makes sense to focus attention on them.
If your licensed IP is say, star wars or Avengers? Yeah, it's worth enough to deal with the pain. Robotech? Not so much.

[mech798]

ZBR-01: Hmm. I like this design. The Alpha shoulders and round intakes bug me, but other than that I'm in.

ZBR-02: Well now. I can see officer pod kinda in there somewhere? But honestly, add another barrel (or not) and this puts me more in mind of a pretty rocking Monster destroid design. Go figure.

So, what's the justification for their constructoin and later replacement by the bioroid?

Also, do we get any explination for why none of this shows up on earth?

[glitterboy2098]

actually, curous about the jutification for the replacement too, since the write up for the bioroid interceptor in the main book has it as "the zentreadi did not have a human built mecha for their own use, and continued to use their fighter pods and battlpods, so after the liberation of tyrol the UEEF started a program to make one to replace their old mecha."

[Seto Kaiba]

Also, do we get any explination for why none of this shows up on earth?

The explanation is on page 22-23 of the Masters Saga sourcebook, actually... Leonard was upset about the UEEF taking all of the best personnel and equipment into deep space. Specifically, the explanation is how he reacted to that discontent. He opted to round up a bunch of engineers who, like the rest of his forces, hadn't made the cut to join the UEEF and set them to the task of developing a new range of combat mecha for his forces.

In short, the reason none of the UEEF gear shows up on Earth is that Leonard decided out of spite that his forces weren't going to use Earth's most advanced and capable mecha... even though the factory building them was literally in right there in orbit.

[Chronicler]

Also, do we get any explination for why none of this shows up on earth?

The explanation is on page 22-23 of the Masters Saga sourcebook, actually... Leonard was upset about the UEEF taking all of the best personnel and equipment into deep space. Specifically, the explanation is how he reacted to that discontent. He opted to round up a bunch of engineers who, like the rest of his forces, hadn't made the cut to join the UEEF and set them to the task of developing a new range of combat mecha for his forces.

In short, the reason none of the UEEF gear shows up on Earth is that Leonard decided out of spite that his forces weren't going to use Earth's most advanced and capable mecha... even though the factory building them was literally in right there in orbit.

I'm actually taking this view for my Alt project. Though for manufacturing I have the factory as a separate thing from Liberty station. I would have Liberty be mankind's first attempt at making a factory satellite.

Anyways still on fence for buying this book. One hand stats to mess with, arts not bad, and can probably get more ideas from it, other hand everyone's ripping into it.

[Lt Gargoyle]

Also, do we get any explination for why none of this shows up on earth?

The explanation is on page 22-23 of the Masters Saga sourcebook, actually... Leonard was upset about the UEEF taking all of the best personnel and equipment into deep space. Specifically, the explanation is how he reacted to that discontent. He opted to round up a bunch of engineers who, like the rest of his forces, hadn't made the cut to join the UEEF and set them to the task of developing a new range of combat mecha for his forces.

In short, the reason none of the UEEF gear shows up on Earth is that Leonard decided out of spite that his forces weren't going to use Earth's most advanced and capable mecha... even though the factory building them was literally in right there in orbit.

I'm actually taking this view for my Alt project. Though for manufacturing I have the factory as a separate thing from Liberty station. I would have Liberty be mankind's first attempt at making a factory satellite.

Anyways still on fence for buying this book. One hand stats to mess with, arts not bad, and can probably get more ideas from it, other hand everyone's ripping into it.

there are lots of good things in the book as well. And since the story line is something your already twisting in your game, get it.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm actually taking this view for my Alt project. Though for manufacturing I have the factory as a separate thing from Liberty station. I would have Liberty be mankind's first attempt at making a factory satellite.

The United Earth Forces having possession of more than one factory satellite was established as canon fact in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. Prior to that, Robotech lore referred to the factory satellite captured in the Macross Saga as though that were the only one of its kind. Exactly how many the UEEF possesses is not stated, but the implication of the description leans in the direction of there being more than just the two (or three*) we've seen.

The existence of multiple factory satellites is another one of those Macross-isms that snuck into Robotech after the big reboot... the UN Spacy in Macross II had two factory satellites in Earth orbit, and in the ongoing main continuity the New UN Forces have at least twenty-two that have been explicitly mentioned. (There are said to be 20-50 satellites per main fleet, and as many as 5,000 main fleets at the height of the Schism War.)

Anyways still on fence for buying this book. One hand stats to mess with, arts not bad, and can probably get more ideas from it, other hand everyone's ripping into it.

Pretty much how I was looking at it after seeing the reviews of the pre-release version... mechanically not unserviceable, but all the fluff is a mess.


* Depending on whether the factory satellite in Sentinels and the one in the Macross Saga are the same installation (the original production intent) or two different ones.

[Kagashi]

actually, curous about the jutification for the replacement too, since the write up for the bioroid interceptor in the main book has it as "the zentreadi did not have a human built mecha for their own use, and continued to use their fighter pods and battlpods, so after the liberation of tyrol the UEEF started a program to make one to replace their old mecha."

It *could* be thought of as the battlepods they refer to are the Z Series Destroids (rather than the traditional pods), in which their write up has them participate in the liberation of Tirol. Regardless, the write ups for the Z Series Destroids were only used in the liberation of Tirol and Karbar-land, then started to be replace by the Inteceptors. This part actually makes sense because the UEEF started recruiting Tirolians into their ranks and they knew how to pilot the Invid Fighters which the Inteceptors were based off of. Additionally, the write ups state that the UEEF wrongfully assumed the Zentraedi were incapable of learning more complex designs, so the Z Series Destroids were eventually replaced with a more complex machine.

But these write ups are a bit of reconning. They really should have explained it better that the Z Series Destroids were designed before they left Earth, not after they arrived on Tirol. Additionally, they reprinted the Bioroid Inteceptor and had a perfect chance to change the wording of the sentence you quoted, but they didnt, further mucking up the "huh huh????" factor.

[mech798]

I'm actually taking this view for my Alt project. Though for manufacturing I have the factory as a separate thing from Liberty station. I would have Liberty be mankind's first attempt at making a factory satellite.

The United Earth Forces having possession of more than one factory satellite was established as canon fact in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. Prior to that, Robotech lore referred to the factory satellite captured in the Macross Saga as though that were the only one of its kind. Exactly how many the UEEF possesses is not stated, but the implication of the description leans in the direction of there being more than just the two (or three*) we've seen.

The existence of multiple factory satellites is another one of those Macross-isms that snuck into Robotech after the big reboot... the UN Spacy in Macross II had two factory satellites in Earth orbit, and in the ongoing main continuity the New UN Forces have at least twenty-two that have been explicitly mentioned. (There are said to be 20-50 satellites per main fleet, and as many as 5,000 main fleets at the height of the Schism War.)

It can be an esecpailly big problem when you realize just the production capability of even a single factory. For humanity, with a fleet numbering in the thousands *at most* comments like "we needed an inexpensive unit" make no sense. The rarest thing in the UEEF ar actually trained soldiers, so with one, to say nothign of more, factory satellites available should see absolutely every soldier kitted out in the most technologically advanced equipment possible.

[Sgt Anjay]

No scenario that starts with "The ASC has crappy stuff" makes very much sense or follows the actual TV series.

As for "why is this mecha used and then replaced?" questions for any of the designs...there's just really not much justification going on, which is part of why this book doesn't fit into the Yune version of Robotech very well. As I say, a lot of them would have been better as Shadow Chronicles era designs rather than Sentinels era, but they wanted them all shoehorned into that early time period and some don't work as well as others.

Overall? I'm glad I got this sourcebook. There is a lot of useful material and good artwork if you're a world-building type of GM.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm actually taking this view for my Alt project. Though for manufacturing I have the factory as a separate thing from Liberty station. I would have Liberty be mankind's first attempt at making a factory satellite.

The United Earth Forces having possession of more than one factory satellite was established as canon fact in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. Prior to that, Robotech lore referred to the factory satellite captured in the Macross Saga as though that were the only one of its kind. Exactly how many the UEEF possesses is not stated, but the implication of the description leans in the direction of there being more than just the two (or three*) we've seen.

The existence of multiple factory satellites is another one of those Macross-isms that snuck into Robotech after the big reboot... the UN Spacy in Macross II had two factory satellites in Earth orbit, and in the ongoing main continuity the New UN Forces have at least twenty-two that have been explicitly mentioned. (There are said to be 20-50 satellites per main fleet, and as many as 5,000 main fleets at the height of the Schism War.)

It can be an esecpailly big problem when you realize just the production capability of even a single factory. For humanity, with a fleet numbering in the thousands *at most* comments like "we needed an inexpensive unit" make no sense. The rarest thing in the UEEF ar actually trained soldiers, so with one, to say nothign of more, factory satellites available should see absolutely every soldier kitted out in the most technologically advanced equipment possible.

Actually "inexpensive units" would still make sense as there are hidden/side costs to consider:
1st where is the Factory getting the raw materials. There will be cost in acquiring the materials and then transporting them to the RFS.

2nd "inexpensive" can also relate to production time. Is the added production time worth it? What about the time to retool the production lines for the new hardware?

3rd what about factory maintenance? We know the RFS in TMS saga that was captured was in need of it as the Regult line went down (possibly for good).

4th are we even sure that the RFS units captured are functional in this capacity (again point to TMS Saga's RFS results)? They may only be usable in terms of providing a ready made empty shell for the UEEF to use.

5th what exactly is the metric being used to establish cost here? It makes sense that they would want some measurement of cost to determine viability during the selection process of what to produce or to continue to produce. We know "cost" is still used, though what the cost is in terms of is undefined.

[Seto Kaiba]

It can be an esecpailly big problem when you realize just the production capability of even a single factory. For humanity, with a fleet numbering in the thousands *at most* comments like "we needed an inexpensive unit" make no sense. [...]

Unless there's something I missed in the Marines book, the older books make it sound like money (or resources) were no object in equipping the UEEF. They got all the newest and best toys money could buy for their important mission to Tirol.

No scenario that starts with "The ASC has crappy stuff" makes very much sense or follows the actual TV series.

That statement isn't actually defensible by evidence, though.

While it's true that nobody in the Masters Saga explicitly says the Army of the Southern Cross's gear is of inferior quality, there are glaring deficiencies that are obvious at a glance. The Logan has virtually no operational endurance. The AGACs was better, but the weapons it had were still minimal and exclusively short-range. The Spartas's driver has pretty much no protection from enemy fire in 2 of its 3 modes for most of its service life. Excluding the variants issued to the flying corps, the body armor wasn't sealed in an environment we're told was rife with radioactive fallout*. That's why official canon and the RPG both went the way they did.

1st where is the Factory getting the raw materials. There will be cost in acquiring the materials and then transporting them to the RFS.

Robotech sources offer no information on that front... but in Macross, the factory satellites (and mobile fortresses) use a fleet of self-built robot ships to gather raw material from nearby asteroids, planets, and various debris floating in space. If it works the same way in Robotech, cost in terms of raw materials is probably minimal.

2nd "inexpensive" can also relate to production time. Is the added production time worth it? What about the time to retool the production lines for the new hardware?

As noted previously, the most scarce resource the UEDF and UEEF have to work with after the First Robotech War is manpower... on those grounds, pretty much anything that improves overall survivability should be easily justifiable.

3rd what about factory maintenance? We know the RFS in TMS saga that was captured was in need of it as the Regult line went down (possibly for good).

Yet we're told that the UEEF was using Regults and Fighter Pods rolled out of that factory until they were cut off from it and had to improvise in the field...

4th are we even sure that the RFS units captured are functional in this capacity (again point to TMS Saga's RFS results)? They may only be usable in terms of providing a ready made empty shell for the UEEF to use.

The implication of the description in AotSC is that the ones in UEEF hands are indeed functional... the one in the Macross Saga is the only one with any mentioned manufacturing hangups.


* The RPG ignores the visual evidence of the series and has the Arming Doublet function as a sealed system.

[ShadowLogan]

Unless there's something I missed in the Marines book, the older books make it sound like money (or resources) were no object in equipping the UEEF. They got all the newest and best toys money could buy for their important mission to Tirol.

TSC Main RPG (all references are from manga size) that come to mind:
-VF-X-4 being shelved (cost was part of the reason given pg96) is mentioned in the Alpha fighter history
-VF-X-5 was shelved (cost overruns was part of the reason pg127)
-VR-041 "was eventually seen as a manufacturing burden, and was eventually superseded by the cheaper 050 series." (pg148, while they don't use the term cost/money the mecha is a burden to produce and its replacement was "cheaper" which equates to cost/money. This factor is also mentioned in AotSC to)

So we know that they are still using something to gauge cost and can encounter burdens on their manufacturing capacity.

It is also possible to say that they aren't getting the best technology given two of the cancellations.

The Logan has virtually no operational endurance

Based on WHAT?

The 2E RPG gives:
-has the same endurance as the AJAC by fuel, both of which have more endurance than the VF-1 (x2.5 IIRC).
-main gunpod can be recharged in the field, a VF-1/Alpha can't recharge their gunpods. The AGACs bulit in gunpod doesn't have the range, though it has the endurance/stopping power over the EU-20. The Beta's EU-14s are comparable in terms of range/power and draw directly from the mecha, and it has 3 of them
-secondary energy weapon (Plasma) IS SUPERIOR to the VF-1/Alpha/AJAC built-in energy weapon (laser) in terms of both range (50% better) and how hard they hit (more dice and/or higher dice code for better damage) give it better endurance when using the secondary weapon. The Beta's secondary guns falls short in range, but hit as hard (not to mention 2 of them)
-it falls short in missile capacity as far as endurance goes (though it IS A LIGHT VF, where others we see ARE IN THE Medium-Heavy range), though I question using this metric alone as both TMS/TRM mecha can't compete with NG in this area w/o extras, not to mention the configuration chosen
-MDC by Location is a gray area depending on how one looks at it. Yes it is "light" compared to other VFs, but I would point out that kg for kg, the Logan has a much better mass/MDC ratio (0.23) than any other VF from the first 3 books (which are all between 0.13-0.15 w/o extras or the Invid Overlord which LOWERs the value, even a quick glance at 1E the same generally holds true for series units, the Beta comes in close second in this regard though). So yes the Logan can't take as much actual hurt, but what hurt it can take it is far more efficient at (and if Palladium had accounted for the parrying the show depicts like they did in 1E I suspect it would be even better at it). It also doesn't hurt that the unit is potentially more nible (dodge/auto-dodge bonus) than the other VFs (meaning it might not get hit as often so it wouldn't need the extra armor/weight) all other sources being equal (ie pilot skills/attributes, networked, etc) and just using the Elite/SpecialBonus in the book.

By the Show itself, the mecha gets very little screen time and what is shown paints a different picture than the official line on her (bias on their part?).

As noted previously, the most scarce resource the UEDF and UEEF have to work with after the First Robotech War is manpower... on those grounds, pretty much anything that improves overall survivability should be easily justifiable.

Except that isn't the case though. We have drone mecha being cancelled before the UEEF mission gets started, we have the VR-041 replaced with the VR-05x (it lacks the built-in GR-103s, which would increase survivability), not to mention high performance mecha getting passed over (VF-X-4). Then you have things like design compromises as part of the Alpha/Beta/Cyclone series that reduce survivability IMHO. So "improves overall survivability" does not mean it is justifiable to the UEEF and UEDF.

Yet we're told that the UEEF was using Regults and Fighter Pods rolled out of that factory until they were cut off from it and had to improvise in the field..

I'm aware they are supposed to have used original Regult/Gnerls (not the Z-Destroids), but where does it say they are still in production by the UEEF for a period of time. They could merely be using surplus stock from a factory(s) that are retro-fitted for micronized crew.

The implication of the description in AotSC is that the ones in UEEF hands are indeed functional... the one in the Macross Saga is the only one with any mentioned manufacturing hangups.

That the UEEF has functional satellites though can run the course of what just "functional" entails, we know the UEEF encounters manufacturing burdens (ex VR-041), so they may not be fully functional, but functional to a limited degree and purpose (even the TMS facility was functional to some extent).

[Seto Kaiba]

-VF-X-4 being shelved (cost was part of the reason given pg96) is mentioned in the Alpha fighter history
-VF-X-5 was shelved (cost overruns was part of the reason pg127)

Just as a point of order, both of these are presented as cost overruns in development... not production. That's different.

-VR-041 "was eventually seen as a manufacturing burden, and was eventually superseded by the cheaper 050 series." (pg148, while they don't use the term cost/money the mecha is a burden to produce and its replacement was "cheaper" which equates to cost/money. This factor is also mentioned in AotSC to)

Not necessarily cost/money, possibly manpower/time/resources. The VR-040 series was a wartime introduction, after all.

The Logan has virtually no operational endurance

Based on WHAT?

Canon spec. and the RPG both indicate the Logan was useless for pretty much anything beyond riot control and light skirmish duty... I'm not talking about fuel, I'm talking about the ability to fight.

Per RPG spec., the Logan can carry at most 4 short-range missiles on its pylons. The Alpha has 60. That's 15 times the endurance.

The Logan's nose gun does more damage and has longer range, but is markedly less accurate (lacks a strike bonus).

The Logan's gunpod has more single shots, but is less accurate (no strike bonus) and once it's done it's done for at least an hour... whereas the Alpha's magazine can be easily replaced with a fresh one.

The Alpha is substantially better in close combat, with 2-3 times as much damage for many attacks, and can take almost twice as much damage.

Stats-wise, one could make an excellent argument that the ASC would've been better served to keep the VF-1. It has many of the same advantages over the Logan that the Alpha does, and even more bonuses.

Except that isn't the case though. We have drone mecha being cancelled before the UEEF mission gets started, [...]

Sorry, my friend, but this is not technically a true statement. See the core book (manga ed.), page 96... on which it is clearly stated that the development continued after the YQ-6000 was turned into a manned fighter.

we have the VR-041 replaced with the VR-05x (it lacks the built-in GR-103s, which would increase survivability), [...]

The loss of the missiles was part of a design tradeoff to improve survivability... a 60% improvement in armor.

not to mention high performance mecha getting passed over (VF-X-4).

As the RPG and canon spec. have it, the VF-X-4/YF-4 was passed over in large measure because of changes in tactical necessity... the right tool for the right job. (and since we know literally nothing of the spec. for Robotech's version of the VF-X-4, we can't say how it compares technologically to the Alpha anyway.)

That the UEEF has functional satellites though can run the course of what just "functional" entails, we know the UEEF encounters manufacturing burdens (ex VR-041), so they may not be fully functional, but functional to a limited degree and purpose (even the TMS facility was functional to some extent).

From what we've explicitly seen, "functional" means "functioning well enough to serve as an active shipyard, drydock facility, mass production plant for military equipment of all sizes, and as a deep space research and development bureau. (To say nothing of also being used as a diplomatic venue, military base, warehouse, and spacecraft boneyard.)

[mech798]

the problem with robotech is that it's taking a setting Macross, that did go with teh logical conclusion of the factory satellites and trying to fit it in a far smaller narrative space. IE, macross wasn't just sending out single fleets, they were sending out entire colony fleets, regular as clockwork, and that didn't count the near space colonization activities.

[Chronicler]

the problem with robotech is that it's taking a setting Macross, that did go with teh logical conclusion of the factory satellites and trying to fit it in a far smaller narrative space. IE, macross wasn't just sending out single fleets, they were sending out entire colony fleets, regular as clockwork, and that didn't count the near space colonization activities.

I'm still surprised they didn't think on doing cloning to repopulate mankind like they did with Macross. I've covered this before from my last thread I made: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=143561

[mech798]

That doens't bother me so much in robotech-- so much of the Robotech Master's tech is essentially "black box" it's reasonable to assume that humanity might be nervous about using the cloning tech, not to mention questions of cultural dislike of hte idea.

But it does require a far higher population survival than the 100 odd thousand we see in Macross.

[Chronicler]

That doens't bother me so much in robotech-- so much of the Robotech Master's tech is essentially "black box" it's reasonable to assume that humanity might be nervous about using the cloning tech, not to mention questions of cultural dislike of hte idea.

But it does require a far higher population survival than the 100 odd thousand we see in Macross.

And yet what choice do they really have then? If going face value on that whole 70,000 people thing why not do it? Humanity over history have been persistent bastards when it came to survival. Hell persistence is written in are very DNA as we are (well were) persistent hunters (chased prey for days till we ether killed them or they fall down dead from being tiered).

[Seto Kaiba]

the problem with robotech is that it's taking a setting Macross, that did go with teh logical conclusion of the factory satellites and trying to fit it in a far smaller narrative space. IE, macross wasn't just sending out single fleets, they were sending out entire colony fleets, regular as clockwork, and that didn't count the near space colonization activities.

Well, yeah... the sheer scale of the Macross factory satellites and the scope of their manufacturing capabilities isn't exactly a great fit for the Robotech setting in general. The Robotech setting might actually make it worse, since in that setting it only took the one factory satellite to meet all the materiel needs of the ~5 million ship Zentradi main fleet instead of 20-50.

With that kind of manufacturing muscle, it shouldn't have been any problem at all for the UEDF to outfit itself with the same mecha the UEEF was using. If they weren't cheating the population up with cloning, the most logical course of action would've been to put greater emphasis on the survivability of the mecha that were being issued. (In that sense, the Z-series mecha actually make a lot more sense... they're more defensible than the old battle pods designed for attrition tactics, and they aren't exactly dragging fresh Zentradi out of cloning tanks by the millions anymore.)

That doens't bother me so much in robotech-- so much of the Robotech Master's tech is essentially "black box" it's reasonable to assume that humanity might be nervous about using the cloning tech, not to mention questions of cultural dislike of hte idea.

But it does require a far higher population survival than the 100 odd thousand we see in Macross.

Probably, but the human population in Robotech is definitely a messy and unclear situation... with two sagas saying 70,000 and a third saying millions.

In Macross, they started with ~1 million humans and ~8 million Zentradi... and they cloned extensively alongside conventional methods to expand the population.

[Sgt Anjay]

You can't watch the TV series with any sort of analytical eye and draw the conclusion of inferior equipment used by the UEDF in the Second Robotech War; in addition, it's an assumption that opens up plot-holes throughout Robotech as was pointed out by the very comments that started this entire line of discussion.

And there aren't any definitive statements in the TV series of the global population being 70k.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

You can't watch the TV series with any sort of analytical eye and draw the conclusion of inferior equipment used by the UEDF in the Second Robotech War

Ayep, can't let rational observation get in the way of good old bias by some! Just face it, nothing said/shown will ever change some idiots' minds about The Masters War because they're so blinded by their dislike of the show....

Warning: And we can't troll them either.

[Tiree]

You can't watch the TV series with any sort of analytical eye and draw the conclusion of inferior equipment used by the UEDF in the Second Robotech War

Ayep, can't let rational observation get in the way of good old bias by some! Just face it, nothing said/shown will ever change some idiots' minds about The Masters War because they're so blinded by their dislike of the show....

I admit - I have been a rabid anti-southern cross fan. I couldn't stand the show and the characters. But a few years ago, you and a few others on the board have made me change my mind. Southern Cross has a wealth of wonderful technology and history. It is a great setting and under represented by the Robotech Community.

The Logan is an excellent fighter, and is even perfect for the New Generation's Freedom Fighters. It's small, compact, quick and fast. Weapons are energy based, no need for ammo, except for missiles which it can't use when it transforms.

[Seto Kaiba]

You can't watch the TV series with any sort of analytical eye and draw the conclusion of inferior equipment used by the UEDF in the Second Robotech War; in addition, it's an assumption that opens up plot-holes throughout Robotech as was pointed out by the very comments that started this entire line of discussion.

Clearly you can, as the people who wrote the official canon stats did just that... and then the RPG did it again (stats-wise, admittedly to a lesser degree than the canon stats would have it). It does create a significant plot hole, in that the UEDF/ASC is deliberately using a technically-inferior selection of equipment for no clear reason (other than the RPG's assertion of Leonard's wounded pride).

And there aren't any definitive statements in the TV series of the global population being 70k.

There are statements to that effect in the Macross and Masters sagas... one of which comes directly from the UEDF's supreme commander, Eli Leonard.

The RPG naturally takes a different approach, because a world with that few people has much less narrative latitude.

[Sgt Anjay]

You can't watch the TV series with any sort of analytical eye and draw the conclusion of inferior equipment used by the UEDF in the Second Robotech War; in addition, it's an assumption that opens up plot-holes throughout Robotech as was pointed out by the very comments that started this entire line of discussion.

Clearly you can, as the people who wrote the official canon stats did just that

No they didn't. They went in with preconceived notions and an agenda and created plot holes in their version of Robotech thereby.

And there aren't any definitive statements in the TV series of the global population being 70k.

There are statements to that effect in the Macross and Masters sagas... one of which comes directly from the UEDF's supreme commander, Eli Leonard.

No, there aren't, although I am aware some seem to want to interpret statements that way.

[Seto Kaiba]

No they didn't. They went in with preconceived notions and an agenda and created plot holes in their version of Robotech thereby.

I suppose that's technically true... they went in with the uRRG's preconceived notions, and apparently found nothing to counter said preconceived notions in the years that followed.

It does, as you say, raise an awkward plot hole or two WRT why the allegedly-superior UEEF equipment doesn't find its way into the UEDF inventory when a good portion of it is supposedly being built right there in Earth's own solar system.

If the Zentradi are much more of a presence in the RPG version, you'd think the Z-series would've found its way to loyalist Zentradi on Earth's surface... to say nothing of the various destroids. I suppose if I'd penned the book, I would've had the Z-series in use on Earth and just "offscreen" due to Leonard's (canon-established) xenophobic views.

And there aren't any definitive statements in the TV series of the global population being 70k.

There are statements to that effect in the Macross and Masters sagas... one of which comes directly from the UEDF's supreme commander, Eli Leonard.

No, there aren't, although I am aware some seem to want to interpret statements that way.

Eh... I dunno, man. Harmony Gold seems to be pretty consistent about the "Zentradi holocaust" being the event fans know as the "Rain of Death", and there being 70,000 survivors thereof... it's in the show, it was in the Infopedia, and IIRC there's a reference to the Rain being the "Zentradi Holocaust" in the RPG too.

[Sgt Anjay]

No they didn't. They went in with preconceived notions and an agenda and created plot holes in their version of Robotech thereby.

I suppose that's technically true... they went in with the uRRG's preconceived notions, and apparently found nothing to counter said preconceived notions in the years that followed.

It does, as you say, raise an awkward plot hole or two WRT why the allegedly-superior UEEF equipment doesn't find its way into the UEDF inventory when a good portion of it is supposedly being built right there in Earth's own solar system.

If the Zentradi are much more of a presence in the RPG version, you'd think the Z-series would've found its way to loyalist Zentradi on Earth's surface... to say nothing of the various destroids. I suppose if I'd penned the book, I would've had the Z-series in use on Earth and just "offscreen" due to Leonard's (canon-established) xenophobic views.

Super xenophobe Leonard also doesn't match TV series Leonard very well, though it is a version that existed in the comics prior to the current version of Robotech.

Y'know, comics that supposedly don't apply, except when they do.

And there aren't any definitive statements in the TV series of the global population being 70k.

There are statements to that effect in the Macross and Masters sagas... one of which comes directly from the UEDF's supreme commander, Eli Leonard.

No, there aren't, although I am aware some seem to want to interpret statements that way.

Eh... I dunno, man. Harmony Gold seems to be pretty consistent about the "Zentradi holocaust" being the event fans know as the "Rain of Death", and there being 70,000 survivors thereof... it's in the show, it was in the Infopedia, and IIRC there's a reference to the Rain being the "Zentradi Holocaust" in the RPG too.

The Rain of Death is referred to as the Rain of Death in the RPG, and has been used in other Robotech products; it's not some fanfic term. It was certainly a holocaust, and certainly had a Zentraedi source. It can certainly be referred to as a Zentraedi holocaust. That doesn't automatically make it what Leonard was referring to.

Leonard's speech from "Dana's Story" is extremely consistent in its references to Macross: all the Macross footage is from episode 36, the names of the fallen all died in 36, his summation of events all take episode 36 as the start point (New Macross City is abandoned, other cities have been rebuilt, etc). In every instance, things in the prior episode are the hallmark. "Dana's Story" as an episode is a chimera whose entire purpose for existence is to bridge the last Macross episode and the first actual Southern Cross episode. To pluck that one single solitary line out of absolutely everything else to assign as referring to "Force of Arms" 10 whole episodes and years timeline-wise earlier is clearly cherry picking that line out of context and misinterpreting it.

[Lt Gargoyle]

You can't watch the TV series with any sort of analytical eye and draw the conclusion of inferior equipment used by the UEDF in the Second Robotech War

Ayep, can't let rational observation get in the way of good old bias by some! Just face it, nothing said/shown will ever change some idiots' minds about The Masters War because they're so blinded by their dislike of the show....

I admit - I have been a rabid anti-southern cross fan. I couldn't stand the show and the characters. But a few years ago, you and a few others on the board have made me change my mind. Southern Cross has a wealth of wonderful technology and history. It is a great setting and under represented by the Robotech Community.

The Logan is an excellent fighter, and is even perfect for the New Generation's Freedom Fighters. It's small, compact, quick and fast. Weapons are energy based, no need for ammo, except for missiles which it can't use when it transforms.

When I was younger and watching the series, I loved it. Then as I got older, i stopped enjoying it so much because I realized that the Dana's character was way over the top. Not because of the mecha, or the over all story arc. Just the 15th. But as i have gotten older, I just look back smile and look at it through the eyes of the preteen watching it once more and laugh at the 80s cartoons.
As for the endless story, I have the same issues with it that I do macross era, it has already been established and unless i chose to totally alter the over all events i have the ending and it leads to generations. which i do realize the Invid leave, but I have other stuff which i can do.

[mech798]

When I was younger and watching the series, I loved it. Then as I got older, i stopped enjoying it so much because I realized that the Dana's character was way over the top. Not because of the mecha, or the over all story arc. Just the 15th. But as i have gotten older, I just look back smile and look at it through the eyes of the preteen watching it once more and laugh at the 80s cartoons.

the problem is that it has a radically different, and jarring tone from either the first or third series. The first series is very military-- the third is resistance fightesr.

Southern Cross doesn't do either. Dana is... an idiot, or a candidate for a fragging. It makes sense out of story, because Southern Cross wasn't intended to be anything like the other two, but in story it's hard to relate and of course you've got the technology problems in having th shoehorn in the ships and mechs we seein this series.

Super xenophobe Leonard also doesn't match TV series Leonard very well, though it is a version that existed in the comics prior to the current version of Robotech.

Leonard has been completely changed from the animation and not for the better. I mean, first, we must be honest-- he was right. The Master's weren't going to negotiate in good faith, ever, and any truce would have lasted precisely as long as it took them to secure the matrix. Once operating at full power the mother ships would have obliterated the Southern Cross. He wasn't the best general, but neither was anyone else.
And that was a vastly more intersting character than the conception of him as some nearly genocidal maniac who also worked iwth Edwards to overthrow the government, etc. etc. It got to the point where if a comic or book needed a bad guy-- well, Leonard would be there. Lazy storytelling and harmfull to the series as a whole.

[ShadowLogan]

Just as a point of order, both of these are presented as cost overruns in development... not production. That's different.

However you did say " the older books make it sound like money (or resources) were no object in equipping the UEEF", clearly these 3 examples paint a picture that money/resources IS something the UEEF has to manage/consider in equipping them-self.

Sorry, my friend, but this is not technically a true statement. See the core book (manga ed.), page 96... on which it is clearly stated that the development continued after the YQ-6000 was turned into a manned fighter.

I am not saying overall development of the frame wasn't/couldn't continued, but the drone aspect of the system was shelved. The drone aspect would have given the UEEF a numbers multiplier, which should increase survivability of their human pilots for the UEEF.

The loss of the missiles was part of a design tradeoff to improve survivability... a 60% improvement in armor.

At the expense of the fire power it can carry. Sure it can take more hits, but it doesn't have the ability to dish it out which can be just as important.

From what we've explicitly seen, "functional" means "functioning well enough to serve as an active shipyard, drydock facility, mass production plant for military equipment of all sizes, and as a deep space research and development bureau. (To say nothing of also being used as a diplomatic venue, military base, warehouse, and spacecraft boneyard.)

I agree with the definition, but are those roles actually handled by the "native" systems or did they have to import the equipment to use it as an active shipyard/production plant.

Per RPG spec., the Logan can carry at most 4 short-range missiles on its pylons. The Alpha has 60. That's 15 times the endurance.

I agree here, however it should be noted that the Logan is in a completely different "weight" class from the other VF mecha. That means it is not a direct comparision since we don't have any other "light" VFs to compare it to w/n RT, since everything else is in the medium-heavy class. It would be like comparing the computing power of a desktop unit to a tablet/smart-phone.

The Logan's nose gun does more damage and has longer range, but is markedly less accurate (lacks a strike bonus).

In terms of secondary weapons of 1st/2nd gen VFs, neither does the AGAC or VF-1. The Alpha and Beta secondary guns do get a bonus.

The Logan's gunpod has more single shots, but is less accurate (no strike bonus) and once it's done it's done for at least an hour... whereas the Alpha's magazine can be easily replaced with a fresh one.

First, why does the Logan have to wait until its fully charged?

Second, the Alpha does not carry any spare magazines officially in 2E RPG. Nor does the VF-1. That gives the Logan an edge here in that it can recharge/reload its gunpod on demand, unlike the others.

Third: The EU-20 can exploit Aimed/Called shots due to the nature of its single shot capacity, the bursting EU-13/GU-11 can not. So the EU-20 might not have a built-in bonus, but based on skills an aimed shot provides better bonuses than a burst. Attack consumption is of course an issue.

The Alpha is substantially better in close combat, with 2-3 times as much damage for many attacks, and can take almost twice as much damage.

MDC I agree the Logan is a bit light, however it should be noted the Logan has overall better melee bonus in avoiding damage over the stock Alphas (H/I, Z/S not looked at):
-AUTO-DODGE (+6 when flying) that is the best of any VF in the first 3 books, that should not be discounted as the closest equivalent the Alpha has to this is to parry
while the Alpha-H/I could parry, it does so at +2 (so Logan can evade damage), the Logan doesn't get any bonus (? did they even watch the show?)
-In terms of rolling with damage (when applicable) it still goes to the Logan with a +3 vs +2 (H/I)
-the regular dodge the Alpha-H/I has a slight edge over the Logan IN FLIGHT, but on the ground it favours the Logan

Stats-wise, one could make an excellent argument that the ASC would've been better served to keep the VF-1. It has many of the same advantages over the Logan that the Alpha does, and even more bonuses.

Well due to production history that can't.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Well due to production history that can't.

They would be able to produce many times more Logans than they would have VF-1s and it all comes down to a numbers game in the end. The Sherman Tank wasn't even remotely as great a tank (in many, though not all, aspects) as the Tiger Tank, but the US built 60,000 Shermans to the Germans roughly 2500 Tigers.....

[ShadowLogan]

Well due to production history that can't.

They would be able to produce many times more Logans than they would have VF-1s and it all comes down to a numbers game in the end. The Sherman Tank wasn't even remotely as great a tank (in many, though not all, aspects) the Tiger Tank, but the US built 60,000 Shermans to the Germans roughly 2500 Tigers.....

Not the production history I was thinking of. I was thinking of Robotech's specific production history in the real world (spliced together shows, etc, you know what I mean) as opposed to RT-world production history. My bad for not being clear.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Its an interesting note that about a 2 years of so ago, someone was arguing that the Alpha couldn't replace its Magazine and would have to return to base like the VF-1 has to when it needs to re-load the gun pod. That only a biomantiance Engineer can replace the Magazine in the Alpha..
in that debate it was comparing the VF-1's gun pod to the Alpha's and the Alpha had to return to base to reload, just like the VF-1...
now in a debate of Alpha v. Logan, the Alpha can easily reload in the Field making it vastly superior to the Logan's recharging gun pod...
cherry picking and flip flopping at its finest...

[Seto Kaiba]

However you did say " the older books make it sound like money (or resources) were no object in equipping the UEEF", clearly these 3 examples paint a picture that money/resources IS something the UEEF has to manage/consider in equipping them-self.

While it's true I did say that, we were talking about production... not development.

I am not saying overall development of the frame wasn't/couldn't continued, but the drone aspect of the system was shelved. The drone aspect would have given the UEEF a numbers multiplier, which should increase survivability of their human pilots for the UEEF.

That depends on whether the technology was actually viable at the time... the official descriptions suggest that it was not, until the advances in AI in the 2040's that produced a proper, autonomous drone fighter.

At the expense of the fire power it can carry. Sure it can take more hits, but it doesn't have the ability to dish it out which can be just as important.

But the Cyclone isn't meant to be a stand-and-fight mecha (on an individual basis)... the design intent was for skirmish use, and as emergency transport for downed pilots. Improved defense would be a greater boon to survivability than greater firepower.

I agree with the definition, but are those roles actually handled by the "native" systems or did they have to import the equipment to use it as an active shipyard/production plant.

Alas, like the number of licks needed to get to the center of a Tootsie-Roll pop, the world may never know... esp. since the rather knee-jerk retroactive establishment of Liberty station (with its clearly human architecture) as a factory satellite has muddied the waters considerably.

I agree here, however it should be noted that the Logan is in a completely different "weight" class from the other VF mecha. That means it is not a direct comparision since we don't have any other "light" VFs to compare it to w/n RT, since everything else is in the medium-heavy class.

The RPG pitches it as the UEDF/ASC's prized space fighter though... so even though it's in a different "weight class", it's operating in the same roles. Whatever its design intent was, its appropriateness to the role it filled was pretty lacking (and the RPG notes that fact).

In terms of secondary weapons of 1st/2nd gen VFs, neither does the AGAC or VF-1. The Alpha and Beta secondary guns do get a bonus.

Aaaaaactually... ALL of the VF-1's ranged weapons and hand-to-hand attacks have strike bonuses, courtesy of the special bonuses described on page 71. It's got a flat +2 to strike with EVERYTHING, which stacks with other bonuses.

The Logan's gunpod has more single shots, but is less accurate (no strike bonus) and once it's done it's done for at least an hour... whereas the Alpha's magazine can be easily replaced with a fresh one.

First, why does the Logan have to wait until its fully charged?

It doesn't have to, but it won't be much use in the short term... its recharge rate is 1 shot every 4 melees. Leaving combat to sit out for a half hour or an hour to let the gun recharge is pretty much the same, logistically, as leaving combat to be reloaded.

Second, the Alpha does not carry any spare magazines officially in 2E RPG. Nor does the VF-1.

This is true... and the VF-1's gunpod doesn't use magazines anymore in RT2E. Still, the guns can be reloaded in the field by anyone with the appropriate skills, returning the gunpod to service potentially much faster than having the pilot sit on his hands for an hour.

Third: The EU-20 can exploit Aimed/Called shots due to the nature of its single shot capacity, the bursting EU-13/GU-11 can not. So the EU-20 might not have a built-in bonus, but based on skills an aimed shot provides better bonuses than a burst. Attack consumption is of course an issue.

At best that's a break-even, and probably not terribly safe considering the Logan's weaker armor.

Stats-wise, one could make an excellent argument that the ASC would've been better served to keep the VF-1. It has many of the same advantages over the Logan that the Alpha does, and even more bonuses.

Well due to production history that can't.

Obviously... but the RPG isn't necessarily 100% bound by what goes on in the show. It can (and indeed does) have mecha from different sagas serving side by side... hover tanks and Logans in the Invid invasion, for instance.

[ShadowLogan]

While it's true I did say that, we were talking about production... not development.

But if development is factoring in cost then it stands to reason that production will be no different.

That depends on whether the technology was actually viable at the time... the official descriptions suggest that it was not, until the advances in AI in the 2040's that produced a proper, autonomous drone fighter.

And yet we have drone based technology in use during TMS, unless the RoD did a once over on every peice of information (physical and digital), it is unlikely that the UEDF was set that far behind in basic AI technology, so they might not have "battloids" (or veritech and non) available, but they could have deployed conventional platforms (non-transformables).

But the Cyclone isn't meant to be a stand-and-fight mecha (on an individual basis)... the design intent was for skirmish use, and as emergency transport for downed pilots. Improved defense would be a greater boon to survivability than greater firepower.

I agree with this that is what the Cyclone is meant for, but it does find itself utilized for regular infantry operations. Firepower and mobility can increase survivability to, and firepower means you aren't just a target.

The RPG pitches it as the UEDF/ASC's prized space fighter though... so even though it's in a different "weight class", it's operating in the same roles. Whatever its design intent was, its appropriateness to the role it filled was pretty lacking (and the RPG notes that fact).

Same role sure, but that doesn't mean doctrine called for fighters/vfs to be able to operate in a manner similar to the UEDF/UEEF if doctrine shifted some of those responsibilities elsewhere.

It doesn't have to, but it won't be much use in the short term... its recharge rate is 1 shot every 4 melees. Leaving combat to sit out for a half hour or an hour to let the gun recharge is pretty much the same, logistically, as leaving combat to be reloaded.

But during that time it can use the nose cannon, so it doesn't have to sit out completely. And the nose cannon hits nearly as hard (90%) and as far (75%) as the EU-20 laser. No other VF can say that in the RPG in 2E.

This is true... and the VF-1's gunpod doesn't use magazines anymore in RT2E. Still, the guns can be reloaded in the field by anyone with the appropriate skills, returning the gunpod to service potentially much faster than having the pilot sit on his hands for an hour.

But if we are giving the VF-1/Alpha support to fall back on, then we have to also give it to the Logan. What form that takes is of course debatable (is there a fast-recharge option from a secondary source, swap gunpods, can energy storage section be swapped out, etc), but it would have to be considered to avoid any bias.

At best that's a break-even, and probably not terribly safe considering the Logan's weaker armor.

Maybe, maybe not.

As the EU-20 is a pistol (that is how the text has it configured), it uses WP: E-Pistol which has better bonuses that WP: E-Rifle (and others) that would apply to the other "hand-held" gunpods. Being Single Shot also means it can pull in the Sniper Skill (technically).

I would add that the Logan's weaker armor is some what off-set by its ability to avoid damage via Auto-Dodge (dodge w/o consuming an attack). Theotretically that means the Logan should be getting hit less often, allowing it to survive longer even if others can take more hits but aren't as nimble.

Obviously... but the RPG isn't necessarily 100% bound by what goes on in the show. It can (and indeed does) have mecha from different sagas serving side by side... hover tanks and Logans in the Invid invasion, for instance.

I agree post series developments are not 100% bound to the show, but depending on how the writers decide to approach the off-camera period/areas of the show... And that is something we should be seeing, some degree of intermixing. Remember that in Sentinels OVA Leonard does complain about UEEF getting priority, so the UEEF may be scooped up all the usable VF-1s (and ones they did not take might have been to costly to restore).

[Seto Kaiba]

But if development is factoring in cost then it stands to reason that production will be no different.

Speaking from a fair amount of professional experience in vehicle prototyping, that isn't normally the case.

Prototype parts are expensive because they're ultra low-volume production, custom fabricated to meet the changing needs of a new design instead of being mass-produced. The cost is usually extremely high in time, money, and resources to make sure a prototype part is built properly, meets spec., and to ensure that the manufacturer isn't losing money on it. Once a part is mass-produced, the cost of production tends to come down sharply because the design isn't changing significantly anymore, production has shifted to a less time-intensive mass production model, and volume, rather than time, is what's bringing in the money.

Factor in all the time, money, and effort that goes into prototyping and a prototype for a $25,000 car could easily cost ten or even a hundred times that... for ONE prototype. That's why prototypes are so often assembled with as many pre-existing mass-production parts as humanly possible, to keep the costs down.

(Indeed, WRT the VF-X-4, in Macross it was made from 35% VF-1 parts for precisely that reason.)

And yet we have drone based technology in use during TMS, unless the RoD did a once over on every peice of information (physical and digital), it is unlikely that the UEDF was set that far behind in basic AI technology, so they might not have "battloids" (or veritech and non) available, but they could have deployed conventional platforms (non-transformables).

They had remotely operated/semi-autonomous drones in the Macross Saga and Masters Saga... but in both cases they had the luxury of a single mode and relatively limited operating conditions. The UEEF would've needed something more versatile, though the RPG categorically ignores the functional pre-Shadow Fighter drones seen in the series (to its detriment). The UEEF may have used those in canon.

I agree with this that is what the Cyclone is meant for, but it does find itself utilized for regular infantry operations. Firepower and mobility can increase survivability to, and firepower means you aren't just a target.

Mobility the Cyclone already had, and its defensive ability increased, while it also was given more versatile armaments... that's as close to win-win as you get vs. the VR-041.

But during that time it can use the nose cannon, so it doesn't have to sit out completely. And the nose cannon hits nearly as hard (90%) and as far (75%) as the EU-20 laser. No other VF can say that in the RPG in 2E.

Yes, but the accuracy is worse and the mecha is so lightly armored that, without the greater punch of the missiles and gun pod, the Logan is very, VERY vulnerable. It just doesn't have the firepower to stay in battle as long as the previous UEDF fighter or the new UEEF fighters.

But if we are giving the VF-1/Alpha support to fall back on, then we have to also give it to the Logan. What form that takes is of course debatable (is there a fast-recharge option from a secondary source, swap gunpods, can energy storage section be swapped out, etc), but it would have to be considered to avoid any bias.

Nothing is mentioned, so anything like that would have to be a house rule... save perhaps for swapping gun pods.

[eliakon]

But if we are giving the VF-1/Alpha support to fall back on, then we have to also give it to the Logan. What form that takes is of course debatable (is there a fast-recharge option from a secondary source, swap gunpods, can energy storage section be swapped out, etc), but it would have to be considered to avoid any bias.

Nothing is mentioned, so anything like that would have to be a house rule... save perhaps for swapping gun pods.

So what support for the VF-1/Alpha is mentioned that the Logan doesn't have?
Because as far as I can see support for BOTH is just a house rule.......

[ShadowLogan]

Speaking from a fair amount of professional experience in vehicle prototyping, that isn't normally the case.

I do not dispute that costs go down when moving from prototyping stage to production, but we have evidence that cost is still considered w/n the setting for the UEEF. Yes 2/3 of the cases I showed are a result of the prototyping stage, but cost is still an issue that enters their minds and it doesn't appear to change when it goes to production as the 3rd example shows.

They had remotely operated/semi-autonomous drones in the Macross Saga and Masters Saga... but in both cases they had the luxury of a single mode and relatively limited operating conditions. The UEEF would've needed something more versatile, though the RPG categorically ignores the functional pre-Shadow Fighter drones seen in the series (to its detriment). The UEEF may have used those in canon.

I agree that the early sagas had nt-drones, which the UEEF could have emulated. And no the UEEF would not need something more versatile in this area, it would be more accurate to say they would like something that versatile though.

That is just one of the problems with the official timeline, not just the RPG actually (pre-Shadowdrones). And I wouldn't say the RPG has ignored the pre-Shadow Fighter Drones, they do get some mention, but Maxwell's collection might be the entire extent of Alpha-related-drones program and I can see them skipping over them if that is the case. I can't see them skipping over the Shadow Drones due to the numbers implied being used (plus like the VBF-X-7 could derive rough game/stats for them based on later models).

Mobility the Cyclone already had, and its defensive ability increased, while it also was given more versatile armaments... that's as close to win-win as you get vs. the VR-041.

It's hardly a win-win vs the VR-041. If we are gauging endurance here, we have to also consider give and take. You've gained take, but lost give. Which can be just as important if not more so as if you can give it faster than you can take it, you may not have to take some or all of it.

Yes, but the accuracy is worse and the mecha is so lightly armored that, without the greater punch of the missiles and gun pod, the Logan is very, VERY vulnerable. It just doesn't have the firepower to stay in battle as long as the previous UEDF fighter or the new UEEF fighters.

Accuracy is worse I agree, but in situations where it can't withdraw it is better than the other VFs when it can hit and how far it can hit if they are in the same boat. Those less accurate guns may require just as many attacks as the others, who may hit more often but do less damage so need multiple attacks to do comparable damage.

Gunpod: The Logan's gunpod though, unlike other VFs, doesn't have the same drastic differences in terms of output (range/damage). If anything the Logan has the best overall score here, difference of 4points of max/min damage and 75% the range between the guns. What other Veritech Fighter has a better ratio?

Missiles: I agree it would be nice to have more missiles, but the Logan does appear to be designed to operate as a gunfighter not a missile boat. So from a doctrine standpoint you are comparing apples to oranges here. Straying from canon into houserule/fanfiction territory but the Logan could have add-ons in the same manner as the VF-1 (obviously the small size limits total capacity, but there is room for some growth) or Beta (Link-up).

Armor, yes it is lighter, but as I've said it has manoeuvrability that can help make that up. It is generally better to avoid taking hits after all (dodge penalties from this only go out to 50ft, obviously missile volleys need to be shot down if they are to big).

[BookWyrm]

Got the book yesterday evening. Still looking through it, but skimmed through it on the train ride home.

NEW MECHA!!!

Liking the Character Creation Rules in the front for the Marine OCC, but would also add this to the Dispostion table:
Tempered: a combination of By-The-Book, Hardened By War and Nice, Friendly. Follows the rules but understands that there are some things that can get out of control, and by being able to come to some middle-ground while still maintaining unit cohesion. Rarely loses their cool in a firefight.

The Sentinel Races get the update they've been waiting for. (Gotta go back & reread the section on the Haydonites in Shadow Chronicles), but is it me or is the color schemes of the Garudans not there in their description? The majority of the comics color them as green-furred, while one shot has a Garudan in either deep shadow or dark-blue fur.
Kinda miss the RAT-1 mecha from the 1st edition Sentinels book.

Nice that the Tirolians get a Partisan OCC.

New Inorgancs. Yay!

New Invid mecha. Nice!

More after sleep & reading.

[tobefrnk]

Does anyone have insight into the change on the Condor writeup for the missile system? The Alpha style fighter launchers seem to have been written out in favor of locating the missiles to the chest. Was this a missed "copy/paste" issue per chance?

[bar1scorpio]

When I was younger and watching the series, I loved it. Then as I got older, i stopped enjoying it so much because I realized that the Dana's character was way over the top. Not because of the mecha, or the over all story arc. Just the 15th. But as i have gotten older, I just look back smile and look at it through the eyes of the preteen watching it once more and laugh at the 80s cartoons.

the problem is that it has a radically different, and jarring tone from either the first or third series. The first series is very military-- the third is resistance fightesr.

Southern Cross doesn't do either. Dana is... an idiot, or a candidate for a fragging. It makes sense out of story, because Southern Cross wasn't intended to be anything like the other two, but in story it's hard to relate and of course you've got the technology problems in having th shoehorn in the ships and mechs we seein this series.

I'd honestly guess that Superdimensional Cavalry Souther Cross went forward without a military adviser.
Although I did like the bit where a brawl breaks out, and she's all "Oh no! Everyone stop!" While her body posture is "Get in there and fight, guys!". Methinks some attempt to be responsible instead gave her a heavily ironic, "See, I'm being a good officer and covering my @$$ before I join in!" tone.

[Kagashi]

One more gripe: if you are going to reprint material...why reprint material from the book you are required to have anyway? tSC is a required book, and they reprinted the Conbat, Condor, and Bioroid Interceptor in Marines. They also reference Logans, Hovertanks, Tristars, VF-1Js and Super Veritechs in Marines...if you are going to waste space reprinting material, at least give us the stuff in books that are not already required to play the game. At least the reprinted Invid Inorganics assumes the player didnt purchase Genesis Pits and can still play in this setting.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'd honestly guess that Superdimensional Cavalry Souther Cross went forward without a military adviser.

Eh... well... you're right about that. Though, strictly speaking, none of the original three shows had a military adviser on staff.

The original Super Dimension Fortress Macross just had a few military aviation enthusiasts on staff, but that's as close as any of them got. Southern Cross wasn't even originally conceived as a mecha series... it was initially developed as a story that would juxtapose conflicts from Japan's Sengoku period into a sci-fi setting. That's why the Arming Doublet looks like samurai armor, and a couple of the personal weapons look like crossbows and such. It changed format to a sci-fi/mecha series in order to get sponsorship money for production, and did so by jumping onto the transforming robot/alien invasion trend started by Macross in '82.

Although I did like the bit where a brawl breaks out, and she's all "Oh no! Everyone stop!" While her body posture is "Get in there and fight, guys!". Methinks some attempt to be responsible instead gave her a heavily ironic, "See, I'm being a good officer and covering my @$$ before I join in!" tone.

IMO, the writers of the original Southern Cross seem to have had something against women... harping quite hard on the whole "marriage is a woman's happiness" thing. Robotech really toned it down massively, but Jeanne (Dana) was a boy-crazy idiot and chronic reg-breaker who had only joined the military to find a husband (and intended to retire immediately thereafter). All of those antics were her way of keeping herself entertained while she waited for Mr. Right. That's not a "strong female protagonist" by any stretch of the imagination... and the other two weren't much better.

Does anyone have insight into the change on the Condor writeup for the missile system? The Alpha style fighter launchers seem to have been written out in favor of locating the missiles to the chest. Was this a missed "copy/paste" issue per chance?

I would assume so... the write-up is almost identical except for the location and number that can be fired simultaneously.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Armor, yes it is lighter, but as I've said it has manoeuvrability that can help make that up. It is generally better to avoid taking hits after all (dodge penalties from this only go out to 50ft, obviously missile volleys need to be shot down if they are to big).

Don't forget the fact the Logan has those near-impenetrable arm shields. They are used to great effect more than once in the series, capable of withstanding hits that would cripple (if not outright destroy) other mecha....