Is forum traffic down?

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:11 pm

Took a bit of a break from the forums of the Megaverse. Was more active prior to 2013. Since I returned a week ago I have noticed the forums seem very slow traffic wise compared to what I remember (you know how recollections are). A lot of "faces" I remember haven't posted in a many months when I check their profiles. Is it me or is it just the summer time slump as more people outside and what not? Or has forum participation and traffic decreased? Is there a way to measure this?

Killer Cyborg · Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:45 pm

I think the forums are slowly shrinking as the years go by, but I can't really say.
I've become less active over time, simply because I have decided to try to dedicate my time to other things.

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:52 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think the forums are slowly shrinking as the years go by, but I can't really say.
I've become less active over time, simply because I have decided to try to dedicate my time to other things.

Arguing on the internet is very important.

The Dark Elf · Unread post by **The Dark Elf** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:20 am

I noticed that too.

I put it down to a half dozen folks who are not currently welcome on here...

Goes to show that the loud voice was only a few.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:12 pm

The Dark Elf wrote:I noticed that too.

I put it down to a half dozen folks who are not currently welcome on here...

Goes to show that the loud voice was only a few.

Or maybe word's gotten around about how lousy those with critical opinions get treated by the members here, so less people bother to come here. And the ones that do remain tend not to say anything because they don't want to put up with the **** storm that'll come down on them...

palladiumjunkie · Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:25 pm

To be honest, there are better places to discuss Palladium Games than on their own forums. Most RPG companies that maintain their own forums actually interact with their fans/customers on their forums. They use the medium to directly answer questions about their games, settings, and rules. That is actually one of the many reasons that I am so excited about Pinnacle doing a Savage Worlds version of Rifts. They actually maintain an entire sub-forum to rules questions, and they respond on a regular basis. They interact with the fans there, meaning you don't have to make a plea to the forum moderators to "pass along a question", and then be told that they'll pass it along, but given the phone number and told to call the office. It is 2015, and Palladium, as usual, continues to exist as if it is still in the 90's.

As for it being quieter around here, there is a pattern. It typically only gets really heated on the forums when Palladium has not met some goal or responsibility that they have set, or taken on, for themselves. RRT is the latest hot topic. They finally got Wave 1 shipped, and low and behold the forums quieted down. They'll start getting a bit heated again the longer it goes with Wave 2, but not as bad as it had with Wave 1. You just have to look at the previous hot topic button before that, with Northern Gun 1 and 2. They finally released Northern Gun 1, and the forums settled down. Northern Gun 2 had some grumblings, but not as much as with Northern Gun 1. I suspect that it was because the people that were voicing their displeasure were just happy to finally have seen some actual progress. The other lesson from these two incidents is that when you take someone's money up front, and don't deliver in a timely manner, you are going to catch grief. Don't act surprised that people are upset, or treat them like they aren't real fans because they want you to deliver on what you had said you would.

Anyway... just my two cents.

-Chris

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:55 am

My thoughts exactly PJ. Most people don't need to be called haters by the hardcore fans because promises were broken. They gave PB money and expect a quality product on a sensible time schedule. As long as PB continues to ignore the backers when concerned with wave two. Then you'll see a bit of a spike. I think it'll increase with the eventual release (if it happens I hope) of wave two since there will be folks who have rules questions and want to show of their "mouthwatering" models. It might even increase even more once tangible progress of the next era of rrt begins.

Killer Cyborg · Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:15 am

The Beast wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:I noticed that too.

I put it down to a half dozen folks who are not currently welcome on here...

Goes to show that the loud voice was only a few.

Or maybe word's gotten around about how lousy those with critical opinions get treated by the members here, so less people bother to come here. And the ones that do remain tend not to say anything because they don't want to put up with the **** storm that'll come down on them...

I have plenty of critical opinions.
I'm generally treated just fine.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:18 am

It always slows down in the summer and picks up during the school year. But there certainly may be a larger pattern of reduced traffic.

I know I've been posting less and I've been making an effort to not get drawn into heated discussions.

--flatline

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:46 am

The Dark Elf wrote:I noticed that too.

I put it down to a half dozen folks who are not currently welcome on here...

Goes to show that the loud voice was only a few.

If anything the reason traffic might be down is because of the hostile environment created by some who can't have a decent conversation without it turning into something it's not. This forum and the way it's run has been discussed on Facebook, dakka and even on kickstarter among other places. The general consensus is a negative one due to the sometimes harsh nature of the fan base. Don't take my ramblings as a challenge, but please be aware that this type of communication seems rather harsh and biased by making such a statement. Everyone including the "half dozen" you don't like should be able to come here and discuss games and such. If people continue to make posts like above the fan base will only get smaller and soon no one will be left except a few who have the same conversations over and over and that leads to stagnation.

Listen if you see something you don't like ignore it and move on. If you do that you won't make new fans feel unwelcome like with the above post and PB can continue to grow and expand. People have different points to make and it seems unfair that only certain viewpoints are seen or allowed. That kind of thinking is wrong and shouldn't be encouraged because it only creates more negative PR and it discourages others from wanting to try PB games. if anything the longtime fans, contributors should encourage discussions even if they vehemently disagree with them. We're all fans here and we all paid money for our games. We should be able to speak our minds. Let's just step back and ignore those whom we don't agree with while being polite about it. This could in the end help increase forum traffic.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:12 pm

I don't know if it's down seasonally, but given that the forum's own self reported peak activity was over 9 years ago, I'd say that the forum community here is either stagnating or shrinking. And while it's certainly more about quality than quantity, without an active fan base and new blood to cover the natural churn such forums can have, that can be a problem.

Frankly, a company needs people to sell to, and ideally that number of people goes up over time (especially years and decades).

Perhaps the chatter has moved to other venues, but 225 simultaneous active users is basically a rounding error for many active forums. I'm certainly not saying that it should be growing exponentially or anything unreasonable, but it doesn't seem there's much in terms of growth at all currently.

More people have joined, perhaps PB fans are just prone to brief periods of lurking, there can be plenty of extenuating factors. But we're talking about an online community over two decades old here.

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:35 pm

The Dark Elf wrote:I noticed that too.

I put it down to a half dozen folks who are not currently welcome on here...

Goes to show that the loud voice was only a few.

I would point out that if making a half dozen folks feel not welcome to express their dissenting views leads to a noticeable decrease in forum traffic when they stop posting, the issues with the forum go MUCH deeper than just a few loud voices stirring up the pot.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:18 pm

bielmic wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:I noticed that too.

I put it down to a half dozen folks who are not currently welcome on here...

Goes to show that the loud voice was only a few.

I would point out that if making a half dozen folks feel not welcome to express their dissenting views leads to a noticeable decrease in forum traffic when they stop posting, the issues with the forum go MUCH deeper than just a few loud voices stirring up the pot.

The sad thing is if I had made that post I would have received a warning or a ban. I've also noticed that threads get closed down only after the so called dissidents get put down or they make posts about the greatness of PB. Heck I'll probably get another warning just for speaking my findings. I got a warning for derailing a thread, but some folks don't get warnings or temp bans for trolling people with different points of view that don't view PB in a favorable light. So staying on topic this kind of rude behavior could be why there is low traffic. That and PB games don't generate huge sales when compared to gw or privateer press or even FFG.

Prysus · Unread post by **Prysus** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:15 pm

Greetings and Salutations. Yes, I've noticed that forum traffic seems down as well. I've changed my habits of visiting the forums over the years, so hard to say if this is a seasonal lull or a greater decline than normal.

I know there are lurkers. I sometimes go for periods without posting because I just don't want to get into heated discussions (much like flatline posted above). I much prefer to be polite when possible, and when I find it takes almost all my will power to respond with snippy responses on a regular basis, I know it's time to stop away for a while. Also you'll often see someone make their first post after years of being a member, sometimes stated that they've avoided posting due to the environment*. Note: Environment can include BOTH sides of the conflict, not just one. Both sides have their extremes, and neither one of them are very good (in my opinion).

More than likely though, the fan base is slowly shrinking mixed with a lull. Palladium only produces a few books a year. For some, that's hard to stay interested. Some get mad Palladium doesn't support a preferred game line enough. I personally know a few who left due to lack of support for Palladium Fantasy, for example. Then I know there's some who left due to the way Palladium has handled one situation or another (many, many situations, too many to really list). Others just slowly drift away from the hobby (I know I don't play or run nearly as much as I once did). So there are fans leaving the company (that's a fact). The question becomes is Palladium pulling in enough new fans to keep the blood flowing. I can't say for sure, but Palladium does have a bad reputation (for a number of reasons, some of it self-inflicted and some of it undeserved), which I feel confident isn't helping.

Now I will admit that I think the moderators can be too quick to shut down negative threads. However, I will say (at least those that I've observed, and I only witness a small handful of them), others have given them the reason to do so. While we can say moderators were looking for an excuse, at the same time when a lit match is thrown into a room full of gas ... well, no one should be surprised when it blows up. When people want to complain or criticize, they're often mad. Angry people tend to do stupid things (that's just human nature). Even if one person can approach the situation intelligently, there's usually a few others ready to jump in and be stupid.

This actually reminds me of the Chris Rock PSA: "How not to get your *** kicked by the police." I won't provide a link due to language, but I find it both amusing AND good advice. If you change a few of the words around, it can work as: "How not to get your thread locked by the moderators" (in my opinion). All right, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:54 am

Or what no one wants to address. The popularity of their products may have decreased. Which means less traffic. We are not allowed to post conversion when many other rpg companies allow it. Cutting back on traffic. Their only so many variations one can do off "Is the Coalition really evil". Certain subjects even when presenting in a constructive manner simply get removed because someone feelings at the company maybe hurt. That too does not lead to more forum traffic. Certain fans can be overzealous when defending the company which again means less traffic. To be fair on the last point though it's not just here. It's on too many forums as well.

palladiumjunkie wrote:To be honest, there are better places to discuss Palladium Games than on their own forums. Most RPG companies that maintain their own forums actually interact with their fans/customers on their forums. They use the medium to directly answer questions about their games, settings, and rules. That is actually one of the many reasons that I am so excited about Pinnacle doing a Savage Worlds version of Rifts. They actually maintain an entire sub-forum to rules questions, and they respond on a regular basis. They interact with the fans there, meaning you don't have to make a plea to the forum moderators to "pass along a question", and then be told that they'll pass it along, but given the phone number and told to call the office. It is 2015, and Palladium, as usual, continues to exist as if it is still in the 90's.

Then there this. Other companies do respond to questions and talk with fans online through their forums. Not PB for the most part. When their is a medium where both sides can talk with each other within seconds. Their solution is the old fashioned letter in the mail is simply just not keeping up with the times. Spending money on postage. Waiting for the letter to arrive and the response to arrive. When all it really needs is a two way exchange on their forums which takes less time and cost no postage.

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:17 am

It sounds like a staffing issue. But it would be good if a staffer took 10-20mins a day and interacted with fans on here. In the Internet age I think it is a pretty tough stance to justify for an entertainment company to not have some sort of offical community manager/rep online.

Killer Cyborg · Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:39 am

Wooly wrote:It sounds like a staffing issue. But it would be good if a staffer took 10-20mins a day and interacted with fans on here. In the Internet age I think it is a pretty tough stance to justify for an entertainment company to not have some sort of offical community manager/rep online.

The way people interact around here, I'm not sure it'd be a good idea for the staff to regularly show up.

Josh Hilden · Unread post by **Josh Hilden** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:02 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Wooly wrote:It sounds like a staffing issue. But it would be good if a staffer took 10-20mins a day and interacted with fans on here. In the Internet age I think it is a pretty tough stance to justify for an entertainment company to not have some sort of offical community manager/rep online.

The way people interact around here, I'm not sure it'd be a good idea for the staff to regularly show up.

Depends on the staffer, depends on the directives from on high, and it depends on the desired result. I think a concerted effort could do a lot to fix things.

It would take time, they'd have to accept a period of extreme vitriol as the anger burned out before things changed.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:00 pm

I can't see that much vitrol. They need to state clearly that if things get out of line in a thread it will be locked. No warning. With a possible banning. I'm no saint on these forums. Yet if a Mod and/or staffer gives you a heads up what will happen and one continues then one gets what they deserve imo. I wish they would rethink their stance on conversion. I understand that certain characters can't be written up. Yet if other rpg companies allow it and they don't get into legal trouble. I see no reason why PB would.

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Josh Hilden wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Wooly wrote:It sounds like a staffing issue. But it would be good if a staffer took 10-20mins a day and interacted with fans on here. In the Internet age I think it is a pretty tough stance to justify for an entertainment company to not have some sort of offical community manager/rep online.

The way people interact around here, I'm not sure it'd be a good idea for the staff to regularly show up.

Depends on the staffer, depends on the directives from on high, and it depends on the desired result. I think a concerted effort could do a lot to fix things.

It would take time, they'd have to accept a period of extreme vitriol as the anger burned out before things changed.

If the staffers come to the forums to interact with empty hands and out-turned pockets and just ignore the valid concerns of the community, I agree that there is no point in them showing up and that things would get ugly. If instead the folks in a position to change things that need changing came to actually engage concerned fans in an actual dialog instead of a paternalistic monologue that ignores them and their concerns in favor of "spin" and predetermined talking points, that would indeed be a nice change of pace and welcomed in the long run even if the news isn't good in the short term. Simply ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away nor does it stop folks from discussing it in other locations where rumor and supposition fill in the blanks instead of facts. I posted a month ago after the supposed "restart" of the Robotech conversation with backers that Palladium needs to "show, don't tell." Sadly, they seem to have only taken that last part to heart and simply "don't tell" which angers folks even more who simply want them to keep their word.

If they have no progress to report on a long delayed project (which, to be honest, is practically EVERY project for Palladium), simply and honestly write that you have no progress that week/month and then state WHY. ("We've been working on X project this week because the subcontractor hasn't gotten back to us yet on Y"). If you yet again have no progress to report at all for the next period, don't take that as an opportunity to just sweep it under the rug and say nothing but rather take it as a lesson that you NEED to do something to get it actually moving again. If some portion of the fan base is vocal about support for a game that you have NO intention of actually supporting with new product for the forseeable future, just be honest and thank them for the support but inform them that you have other games that are currently a priority. Don't advertise a barely envisioned book concept with an exact date to string them along for years as it is delayed and delayed because it was never a priority to begin with. The 2012 Palladium catalog is a perfect example of that. Of the two dozen products advertised in that 2012 (!!!) catalog coming out in 2013, less than half will actually be out by the end of the summer 2015 and I'm including the next two books in that. If you throw in the Robotech items that weren't in that catalog but were scheduled to come out in 2013, they're down to about a third. A third of what was supposed to come out in 2013 has actually come out the middle of 2015.

I can take bad news fairly well and likely so can the remaining fanbase as long as it is presented fairly and honestly. What I don't like is sweeping things under the rug, ignoring fans for months or years (depending on which palladium line/product we're talking about) and then posting an "apology" long after the fact that means nothing because you just plan on doing the same thing yet again. That isn't the type of engagement that this forum needs.

The Galactus Kid · Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:36 pm

I've been taking a step away so I can finish some material. I'm putting a bow on that tonight though, so I'll be posting more in the near future.

Boethermsbrukan · Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:14 am

Evening, mes amis!

I originally signed up in 2004, but was only active briefly and didn't get back here as a regular visitor and poster until several years later. I don't find the environment here or the responses I've gotten to be hostile or particularly unpleasant; what I have found is that frequently I'll post in a thread and it just stops there, or the context of a given thread will function without my posts having any real impact on it. I've long since gotten to the point where I keep in mind that I won't have much if any input in a thread most of the time.

That said, I do enjoy coming here, and there are a handful of active threads where my regular input has had an impact. (Jerell, the first picture of Shadowfall's streets will be along soon: got my replacement HD today! ^_^) I don't feel coming here is at all a waste, and the handful of friends I've met and kept in touch with here are more than worth the visiting.

-Boe.

Killer Cyborg · Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:37 am

Boethermsbrukan wrote:Evening, mes amis!

I originally signed up in 2004, but was only active briefly and didn't get back here as a regular visitor and poster until several years later. I don't find the environment here or the responses I've gotten to be hostile or particularly unpleasant; what I have found is that frequently I'll post in a thread and it just stops there, or the context of a given thread will function without my posts having any real impact on it. I've long since gotten to the point where I keep in mind that I won't have much if any input in a thread most of the time.

That said, I do enjoy coming here, and there are a handful of active threads where my regular input has had an impact. (Jerell, the first picture of Shadowfall's streets will be along soon: got my replacement HD today! ^_^) I don't feel coming here is at all a waste, and the handful of friends I've met and kept in touch with here are more than worth the visiting.

-Boe.

Good feedback. :ok:

Boethermsbrukan · Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:52 am

Killer Cyborg wrote:Good feedback.

Killer Cyborg, good evening (or morning my time, anyway! ^_^)!

It's kind of you to say so, ami. I guess the emotional response I had when I first had my difficulties here around 2004 was considerably more reactive, and on a personal level much less pleasant. A lot has happened to me in the last 11 years, and I think I've gotten past the point of 'putting up with' how I feel and being more patient in working how I do feel out before saying anything.

Besides, my love for gaming and for Palladium's works was never lost, merely a bit subdued for a while. Coming back here with (if I may say so) a much-improved artistic skill and a mess of experience under my belt, and getting past my shyness in putting up my artwork online, as well as having developed a whole lot of ideas that have evolved into written and drawn concrete works, I'm feeling very good about being back here actively.

The Megaverse Forums, like any online gatherum, exists and grows because we're still coming back to add to them, even if our membership isn't always the same. It's a pleasure to be part of it!

-Boe.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:59 pm

Considering the lack of information on wave two I'm surprised forum traffic hasn't spiked a little. Then again many people on kickstarter and other forums have commented on the draconian manner in which the forums are run, so that could be part of the problem. (No offense to any mods) I've noticed other forums are more relaxed with their members. So for many people who are used to being able to post their opinion without retribution from the mods or certain fans/forum members, this place can seem stifling. I agree that this isn't the best place to discuss PB due to interesting nature of the fans who post here or fans that run the boards. (Again no offense)

If you want to discuss PB games the best places I've found are FB, dakka dakka, the miniatures page, kickstarter and rpg.net. There you won't get any bans or warnings for being honest about your opinions. Now if start to make disparaging remarks towards someone then you'll get a warning or a ban depending on how serious the attacks were. In fact I'm surprised Dark Elf hasn't received a warning for making new PB fans feel unwelcome here. I just received one for derailing a thread asking for wave two information (politely) and he or she (I don't know the sex of the poster) hasn't received one for trolling in this thread. Let's face it there are double standards here and if you don't think so then your just fooling yourself.

This is the only place I've visited were some fans will start an argument in a thread just to get it locked because it paints PB products in an unfavorable light. I never heard anything negative about PB in the 90's and back in 08' when I found out they were still in business until this kickstarter. I came here to voice my personal opinions and legitimate concerns and was trolled by certain fans. So it's understandable why there isn't more traffic here. Even with the 5k plus backers traffic hasn't spiked like you'd think it would. Why? Again it's due to word of mouth. Why does rrt sales seem slow? Word of mouth. Many people I've spoken to told me they won't come here due to the negative word of mouth about this place and products. Even GW doesn't engender this much negativity and they screw up a lot.lol

If or when there is more freedom of opinion here I'm sure forum traffic will improve.

Bill · Unread post by **Bill** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:28 pm

The only other publisher's forum I've been on recently was Goodman Games'. I don't think it's any more popular than here. I would visit WotC's D&D forums occasionally when I was running their game. They were more densely populated, but I think that can be chalked up to their game's larger audience. I think comparing a publisher's forum to a more general fan forum like RPG.net is a little like comparing apples to oranges though. The only people that are likely to come here are folks that are curious about a Palladium product or who are already fans of the game.

I agree that the general tone of the forum is not as welcoming as it could be. It's a common occurrence to see condescension and aggressive argument over trivialities around here. I'd like to see it improve, but I don't know that it would have a significant impact on the number of regular visitors.

Diamond_Spear · Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:25 pm

Palladium refuses to:
1: Update thier core product
2: Update the way the do business in general
3: Meet thier self-imposed release schedules
4: Accept or acknowledge that anything is wrong

This has resulted in a flight of all but either the most hardcore or tolerant of players.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:24 pm

Diamond_Spear wrote:Palladium refuses to:
1: Update thier core product
2: Update the way the do business in general
3: Meet thier self-imposed release schedules
4: Accept or acknowledge that anything is wrong

This has resulted in a flight of all but either the most hardcore or tolerant of players.

I think "flight" is too strong of a word. "Attrition" is how I'd describe folks' migration to newer and/or better supported games.

--flatline

Chronicle · Unread post by **Chronicle** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:58 am

i have noticed a drop in post activity as well as few if any new threads as well.

Boethermsbrukan · Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:24 pm

Chronicle wrote:i have noticed a drop in post activity as well as few if any new threads as well.

Chronicle and other chummers, good evening!

I guess for my part, I don't tend to post in a great number of threads; usually I keep it to ones that have particular interest to me, and even outside that particular range there are dozens I enjoy reading, but having few replies to my posts keeps me in 'reading mode'. I've started a couple of threads since coming back here regularly a couple of years ago, and I do still enjoy that creation process, as well as sometimes having a few posts back and forth, which is something I look forward to.

Palladium Books- and especially Palladium Fantasy- were what got me started, and in its own way the lack of a huge bibliography for most of Palladium's games (Rifts definitely has a healthy bookshelf, and Palladium Fantasy has a smaller but just as rich a bookshelf) has pushed me to fill in the blanks that had yet to be filled with my own creations (at home and unpublished, I mean o_o). In my case, it's a gaming company I can keep up with! ^_^

Got to start putting down pencil on that street scene or two from Shadowfall soon; I've had my new HD for more than a week and have had plenty of time to reinstall CorelDraw, and I'm needing to get up off my duff about it. I'm planning to put them up on my DeviantArt, per Jerell's suggestion, and will provide the links when they're up and about. I am going to dig drawing my rendition of members of the Black Guard City Legion in the midst of at least one of them!

-Boe.

RockJock · Unread post by **RockJock** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:04 pm

I've started lurking again after a long hiatus, and the traffic does not seem hugely dropped to me. Thinned out somewhat, and it seems less chitchat, but I see a good number of posts being talked through.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:45 pm

Wait until school starts again. It always picks up them.

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:12 am

Okay just ignoring the stuff about the culture and moderation of these boards for a moment, I think the single biggest thing driving the decline of traffic here is that Palladium has been around for a long time, its game lines are pretty old and its last big breakout hit was Rifts, and almost all of its new products are books for old lines that get bought by old fans.

So of course traffic's going down. They just straight up don't have enough new fans to make up for the gradual decline of old fans.

And that's my moment over, so let's go back to the culture and moderation of the boards. The culture has a reputation (rightly or wrongly deserved) across the internet for being fanboyishly intolerant of criticism, and over the years I've noticed that almost nothing except game mechanics questions and gushingly uncritical threads about Why My Favorite Game Should Be Turned Into A Movie ever gets discussed. And the moderation is needlessly heavyhanded and uses arbitrary and often unnecessary rules that were designed with the twin goals of "never have to make a subjective call" and "make sure nothing that would offend the parents of teen boys ever appears on this forum full of thirty year olds discussing games full of sex demons".

Killer Cyborg · Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:48 am

Rallan wrote:Okay just ignoring the stuff about the culture and moderation of these boards for a moment, I think the single biggest thing driving the decline of traffic here is that Palladium has been around for a long time, its game lines are pretty old and its last big breakout hit was Rifts, and almost all of its new products are books for old lines that get bought by old fans.

So of course traffic's going down. They just straight up don't have enough new fans to make up for the gradual decline of old fans.

I agree completely.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:57 am

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Rallan wrote:Okay just ignoring the stuff about the culture and moderation of these boards for a moment, I think the single biggest thing driving the decline of traffic here is that Palladium has been around for a long time, its game lines are pretty old and its last big breakout hit was Rifts, and almost all of its new products are books for old lines that get bought by old fans.

So of course traffic's going down. They just straight up don't have enough new fans to make up for the gradual decline of old fans.

I agree completely.

They totally need to push Splicers harder, then.

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:34 am

I asked Kevin at GenCon 2015 if he reads the forums. He says he does not (which I believe has been his long standing answer). The problem with criticism isn't that it isn't warranted. It is that no one with answers or power to make changes is interacting or answering to the criticism directly here on the forums. Hence many critics become more vitriolic in the hopes of getting attention, as they feel they are being ignored (perhaps rightly so). Then mods step in.

In my opinion Palladium badly needs an online community manger that is empowered to answer questions with real answers as well as post regular updates. This is what fans have come to expect from other tabletop game companies. The only large company I can think of that doesn't have online community interaction is Games Workshop.

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:42 am

flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Rallan wrote:Okay just ignoring the stuff about the culture and moderation of these boards for a moment, I think the single biggest thing driving the decline of traffic here is that Palladium has been around for a long time, its game lines are pretty old and its last big breakout hit was Rifts, and almost all of its new products are books for old lines that get bought by old fans.

So of course traffic's going down. They just straight up don't have enough new fans to make up for the gradual decline of old fans.

I agree completely.

They totally need to push Splicers harder, then.

Ahh my favorite subject! Make more Splicers books/products and make them now! Splicers is still on its first and only print run. First printed in 2005 IIRC. My perception is there is mountain of art and text ready to be edited into Splicers source books and it kills me that we can't get a crack at it in any form. I suggested in Kevin in person run Splicers material as straight pdf releases.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:53 pm

flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Rallan wrote:Okay just ignoring the stuff about the culture and moderation of these boards for a moment, I think the single biggest thing driving the decline of traffic here is that Palladium has been around for a long time, its game lines are pretty old and its last big breakout hit was Rifts, and almost all of its new products are books for old lines that get bought by old fans.

So of course traffic's going down. They just straight up don't have enough new fans to make up for the gradual decline of old fans.

I agree completely.

They totally need to push Splicers harder, then.

That's not going to help any.

Bill · Unread post by **Bill** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:22 pm

I have to agree with The Beast. PB needs a new product with broad appeal and they need to commit the resources to support it. That would be a huge risk, and I don't know if they've got the resources available to take it. They seem much more inclined to take the safe bet of churning out more Rifts material.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:09 pm

Robotech forum traffic seems to be up. Maybe Palladium should focus more efforts there.

Killer Cyborg · Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:01 am

Bill wrote:I have to agree with The Beast. PB needs a new product with broad appeal and they need to commit the resources to support it. That would be a huge risk, and I don't know if they've got the resources available to take it. They seem much more inclined to take the safe bet of churning out more Rifts material.

I'd wager that they do NOT have the resources to support a new product. They don't even have the resources to properly advertise lately.

The single best idea that I've heard for a while is for Palladium to try to get into the Kindle Worlds program, which would allow people to write and sell ebook Palladium fan-fiction, with Palladium dictating the terms/parameters of the fiction (i.e., no porn), and getting a cut of the profit.
IF Palladium could get in, then by my understanding, all they'd have to do afterward would be to sit back and collect the money while other people did the work.
-Amazon would police the story content just as it does with its other ebooks, without Palladium staff having to expend any significant manpower.
-Writers would write on their own time, without Palladium having to pay them a cent.
-Amazon AND the writers would promote the product, without Palladium having to put in any money.

The most commonly-occuring complaint about Palladium over the years (specifically Rifts) is that while people LOVE the setting and worlds that Palladium has created, the actual mechanics can be confusing and alienating, especially since there is a lack of customer service to answer questions.
The next most common complaint is that Palladium doesn't create new product fast enough.
Kindle Worlds Fan-fiction would allow for Palladium to capitalize number one asset (their settings), without spending any time or money once things get started, and it would help fulfill the fans' hunger for constant new product. Which would quite probably help stir up forum traffic, because there'd always be new stuff to talk about.

Granted, not all of the product would be GREAT product... but because of the nature of this product (i.e., non-canon fan-fiction that Palladium did not write), shoddy product wouldn't affect Palladium's brand any more than shoddy GI-JOE fan-fiction will hurt that brand.
At the same time, Palladium would be able to get some level of credit for the really good stuff, because it's their setting.
And if their contracts are like some of the other KW ones I've seen, they'd have rights to use any characters/ideas/whatever that they liked from the fan-fiction, turning it official. So if Josh Hilden wrote a KW novel that took off like wildfire, Palladium could then take the main characters from that fan-fiction novel, and they could publish an official book with those characters in it.

For the companies involved in the KW program, it seems like it's essentially all gain with no downside.
It may or may not be an incredible amount of gain, but I think it would be significant, especially with the low initial costs/effort involved, and the potential long-term gains.

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:01 pm

That sounds great Cyborg! I fear that Rifts licensing is tried up with the movie deal however? Obviously that is speculation but that would be my concern.

Josh Hilden · Unread post by **Josh Hilden** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:21 pm

If I remember correctly, and my last official contact was 7 years ago, the movie deal only covers a live action feature length productions. Frankly licensing it more broadly would be kinda counter productive.

I've advocated for Palladium throwing their hat in the KINDLE WORLDS area for awhile. I can't see a single significant reason NOT to.

Josh Hilden · Unread post by **Josh Hilden** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:28 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:So if Josh Hilden wrote a KW novel that took off like wildfire, Palladium could then take the main characters from that fan-fiction novel, and they could publish an official book with those characters in it.

For the companies involved in the KW program, it seems like it's essentially all gain with no downside.
It may or may not be an incredible amount of gain, but I think it would be significant, especially with the low initial costs/effort involved, and the potential long-term gains.

Yep that's my feeling on the matter, btw thanks for the plug... although my GI JOE stories of KINDLE WORLDS are fatr from shoddy IMO.

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:40 pm

Well from my opinion and from what I've seen is many of the Robotech tactics game people came here looking for answers, all they got was ridicule and snide comments, all be cause they were not happy with giving their money and PB not talking to them, how dare they be offended by that, i'm sure most of you if not all of you who derided and insulted and made fun of those people coming here for answers would gladly give your money away in return for product which has not showed up after a couple of years.

I do apologize the hypocrisy is overwhelming.

Jerell · Unread post by **Jerell** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:59 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The single best idea that I've heard for a while is for Palladium to try to get into the Kindle Worlds program,

That actually does sound like a good idea. At the least maybe get some new people interested...

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:31 am

Asterios wrote:i'm sure most of you if not all of you who derided and insulted and made fun of those people coming here for answers would gladly give your money away in return for product which has not showed up after a couple of years.

They're used to it. Probably a little too used to it, since a lot of the drama basically boiled down to longtime fans being shocked and appalled that all these new Robotech customers actually had expectations

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:18 am

Rallan wrote:
Asterios wrote:i'm sure most of you if not all of you who derided and insulted and made fun of those people coming here for answers would gladly give your money away in return for product which has not showed up after a couple of years.

They're used to it. Probably a little too used to it, since a lot of the drama basically boiled down to longtime fans being shocked and appalled that all these new Robotech customers actually had expectations

That is the sad thing customers should never get used to that, businesses are here to supply us a prompt service for our money, not for customers to just give them money (that is what charities are for, and last I checked Palladium Books is not a charitable organisation).

As it goes I've been watching several forums, and its all the same, you have one group which is mad they don't have their product, and another group which is mad that the others are mad they don't have their product, one group thinks that Palladium books will not deliver on product, the other group says where is your evidence, then the first group says where is your evidence. (I'm kind of believing the first group due to the lack of anything being shown from Palladium Books).

Anyway evidently Palladium Books and several MA's are having a hush hush meeting today regarding the game so it does make one wonder about what, probably trying to get the conventional forces rules down pat. but we shall see.

Killer Cyborg · Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:30 pm

Josh Hilden wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:So if Josh Hilden wrote a KW novel that took off like wildfire, Palladium could then take the main characters from that fan-fiction novel, and they could publish an official book with those characters in it.

For the companies involved in the KW program, it seems like it's essentially all gain with no downside.
It may or may not be an incredible amount of gain, but I think it would be significant, especially with the low initial costs/effort involved, and the potential long-term gains.

Yep that's my feeling on the matter, btw thanks for the plug... although my GI JOE stories of KINDLE WORLDS are fatr from shoddy IMO.

I was talking about your competition.

Dave the dragon · Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:21 pm

I will take your word for it.
Between the abuse from the moderators for voicing complaints, the abuse from fans for voicing complaints, and the abuse from the company.....

Rather than rehash old complaints, Ive deleted that and will simply move on with what I know:
1) As polite as you all speak, outside of this forum this place is considered more toxic that the Major Political Discussion sites. (DU, KOS, Free Republic, Etc) Those that know of PB's existence often joke its easier to be obama in a room full of republicans (or Bush in a room full of democrats; whichever you prefer) than to come to these pages, unless you intend to endlessly sing praises.

2) In the publishing industry, PB is.....very much less than respected. They earned a place of distrust with so many broken promises over the last 30 years; not just broken to fans, but to the stores selling their goods as well.

3) PB has been reduced to begging for money, broke its kick-starter agreement, filed frivolous lawsuits, is famed for the C&Ds it claimed it didnt send while people posted PDFs. Palladium Books is the Lindsey Lohan of the RPG industry; scratch that, Lohan isnt as screwed up and self-destructive as PB has repeatedly proven itself to be.

4) I have found that regional universities (Indiana and Michigan) are actually familiar with the company. The company is used in many classes for examples; not in a good way. From the staff and moderators actively driving customers away, to the above mentioned culture of the online presence and (unprofessionalism isnt a strong enough word) combined with the "battered wife syndrome" so many of the die-hard fans exhibit......Many young grad students find this an ideal target environment for some kind of thesis.

5)

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Rallan wrote:Okay just ignoring the stuff about the culture and moderation of these boards for a moment, I think the single biggest thing driving the decline of traffic here is that Palladium has been around for a long time, its game lines are pretty old and its last big breakout hit was Rifts, and almost all of its new products are books for old lines that get bought by old fans.

So of course traffic's going down. They just straight up don't have enough new fans to make up for the gradual decline of old fans.

I agree completely.

I would disagree, obviously. Sembeida does business like this is still the '80s. There is no online presence from him, and he is essentially the company. He rewrites almost all work given to him, according to both him and most of the freelancers. The staff all agree with him that he does most editing, etc etc etc. You essentially have a one man company, in spite of there being (4 last time I checked) other full time employees.
A one man company who's old enough to have grand-children playing. Many of us dont like to admit it, but you kinda loose touch with the crowd thats 20 years younger than you. And you really loose touch when the crowd is 40 years younger than you.

If you want to ignore how poorly the company has treated its customers for the last 25 years (which would seem ridiculous, but why not)....
And you want to ignore the open hostility of the only employee to visit (AlexM), the Mods, and the fans...
And you want to ignore 25 years of everyone involved with the company, including Sembeida himself, saying he basically does it all, and all by himself......
The next obvious problem is you've got an artistic endeavor where the artist has aged 2 generational shifts beyond his target audience. (and I wont even begin to start with the "da schoolsh deez daiz" rants)

6) PB has not had the proper budget to do anything, and thats not "lately". Thats been the case since the millenial shift. PB started doing "reduced runs" of 3K back in the "aughts", and couldnt sell out the first print in a year, even back then. The customers left because PB couldnt write, produce and publish anything close to on-time; they lacked the money to be an effective business. As more customers left, the budget shrank even more, which only made it worse.

7)

flatline wrote:
Diamond_Spear wrote:Palladium refuses to:
1: Update thier core product
2: Update the way the do business in general
3: Meet thier self-imposed release schedules
4: Accept or acknowledge that anything is wrong

This has resulted in a flight of all but either the most hardcore or tolerant of players.

I think "flight" is too strong of a word. "Attrition" is how I'd describe folks' migration to newer and/or better supported games.

--flatline

Attrition is a better word, from someone who has watched this for most of the last 15 years. And it runs in cycles. Every so often a fresh batch of noobs gets minted because PB actually releases something. Its not enough to help the company in the long run, but it is enough to watch the cycle start again, and the old cheer-leaders think they win another victory as one more batch is driven away.