The Differences between the VF-1 Valkyrie and the VF/A Alpha

[Seto Kaiba]

Um yeah, in the cores....that is like saying that Magma is found in terran worlds.....its not where anyone can actually get to it.

Actually, more recent scientific investigations of the gas giants in our local system indicate that the metallic hydrogen layers are a LOT closer to the surface than previously thought... and the intense gravity is likely not an issue for ships which have the ability to control gravity for flight and to regulate internal gravity.

And the SDF-1 had reserves already on the ship, there is no support for the claim that it had either unlimited fuel of that it was picking up and making more.....

Obviously it had reserves, but were they sufficient to see it through the entire trip home? It wasn't exactly prepared to launch and fight a war when the series started, and the 18 month figure in the RPG is qualified as assuming a standard crew and troop complement. The UEEF took large numbers of VF-1's and other fusion-powered mecha with them, per the Marines book, so it does stand to reason that they had the means to produce the necessary fuel somewhere in space (if not necessarily directly aboard their ships).

Okay so where is the explicit claim that there IS a separately fuel space drive. Because your a huge fan of 'if it doesn't explicitly say its there its not'....or does that only go for claims others make like magazines for Alphas?

Please refer to my previous post about protoculture-powered propulsion systems... though, as previously noted by both myself and ShadowLogan, Palladium's game system lacks a propellant management mechanic, so the RPG largely glosses over the non-power supply fuel. We know for 100% certain that it exists (see previous), but it's not represented in the crunch.

[eliakon]

Um yeah, in the cores....that is like saying that Magma is found in terran worlds.....its not where anyone can actually get to it.

Actually, more recent scientific investigations of the gas giants in our local system indicate that the metallic hydrogen layers are a LOT closer to the surface than previously thought... and the intense gravity is likely not an issue for ships which have the ability to control gravity for flight and to regulate internal gravity.

I am still going to have to say that this is still well into the realm of "Well I want this so I am just going to invent a house rule that allows it because there isn't a shred of canon support for it but its sounds cool, and might possibly be plausible if we add all sorts of unsupported features to the known technology"

And the SDF-1 had reserves already on the ship, there is no support for the claim that it had either unlimited fuel of that it was picking up and making more.....

Obviously it had reserves, but were they sufficient to see it through the entire trip home? It wasn't exactly prepared to launch and fight a war when the series started, and the 18 month figure in the RPG is qualified as assuming a standard crew and troop complement. The UEEF took large numbers of VF-1's and other fusion-powered mecha with them, per the Marines book, so it does stand to reason that they had the means to produce the necessary fuel somewhere in space (if not necessarily directly aboard their ships).

So again its your personal, unsupported, view that the reserves were not sufficient so this proves that they made more.

Okay so where is the explicit claim that there IS a separately fuel space drive. Because your a huge fan of 'if it doesn't explicitly say its there its not'....or does that only go for claims others make like magazines for Alphas?

Please refer to my previous post about protoculture-powered propulsion systems... though, as previously noted by both myself and ShadowLogan, Palladium's game system lacks a propellant management mechanic, so the RPG largely glosses over the non-power supply fuel. We know for 100% certain that it exists (see previous), but it's not represented in the crunch.

So its your personal house rule that you are extrapolating from your personal interpretation of how you feel the system should work and not actually supported by any actual canon information at all and instead simply by your personal belief that it must exist. Thanks


So what I am seeing from this is that you are arguing that your personal fanon trumps the official material and if there is no material to go by that your fanon is more valid than anyone else's.

[Seto Kaiba]

I am still going to have to say that this is still well into the realm of "Well I want this so I am just going to invent a house rule that allows it because there isn't a shred of canon support for it but its sounds cool, and might possibly be plausible if we add all sorts of unsupported features to the known technology"

That's an amusing distortion of what I actually said... all I did was point out that metallic hydrogen is a material commonly found in massive quantities in nature, and that historically large ships involved in highly mobile operations have not had difficulties keeping their fighters fueled.

Though, as an addendum to that original line of inquiry, it would be decidedly odd if the Masters did NOT possess the technology to refine hydrogen fuels... their smaller ships have conventional engines like the Zentradi's, and of course their five million ship fleet of Zentradi needs fuel to keep those protoculture-powered fusion engines ticking over too. The only place to realistically get that much hydrogen to sustain forces on that scale for hundreds or thousands of years would be gas giants. It's also an unimpeachable fact in the RPG that the UEEF took large numbers of VF-1's with it, as well as Logans and other fusion-powered mecha. They had to obtain fuel from SOMEWHERE, that means there is infrastructure to produce that fuel somewhere in the UEEF's logistical chain even after losing contact with Earth (because, again, they kept using the VF-1's until the Beta's introduction in the late 2030's).

So again its your personal, unsupported, view that the reserves were not sufficient so this proves that they made more.

No, there's a whole episode devoted to the SDF-1 resupplying because the reserve supplies it had were NOT sufficient... technically two, in point of fact. (#7 and #20.)

So its your personal house rule that you are extrapolating from your personal interpretation of how you feel the system should work and not actually supported by any actual canon information at all and instead simply by your personal belief that it must exist. Thanks

Wrong again. As both ShadowLogan and I have mentioned in previous posts, the existence/requirement for a separate fuel tanks for space flight on the Alpha is a canon fact established by Harmony Gold, and one of the official reasons given for why the Alpha needs the Beta.

The existence/requirement of a separate fuel supply for protoculture-powered mecha and spacecraft is also evident in the RAW text of the Macross Saga sourcebook, which clearly indicates that the protoculture power system is powering fusion engines which provide the actual thrust. This "reflex furnace powering X thruster" seems to be consistent across every ship in the RPG except the Masters' motherships, which use a reactionless graviton drive instead.

It's not a house rule if it's literally in the book, man.

If you have evidence that these ships and fighters do not use reaction mass from a canon or RPG source, please present it.

[taalismn]

As I recall, the line art for the landing bay of Breetai's ship shows a number of pieces of equipment, including what appear to be a number of vehicles(including at least one seen fleetingly in the background as Breetai beats the snot out of Vermillion) not given coverage, including one large tubular-winged small craft that might be a small tanker(for refueling Gnerls and other small craft on the wing?).
I gotta agree that a) Palladium dropped finite-fuel-based mechanic for the sake of simplicity, b) in reality, some sort of remass was involved on VF drives(unless evidence comes forward or it's officially retconned in the animation that Dixon's VF was leaking liquid life support gasses), and c) the SDF-1 and other larger ships most likely had some means of collecting and refining SLMH, either from water ice or gas giants.

[ByzantineBasileus]

I am still going to have to say that this is still well into the realm of "Well I want this so I am just going to invent a house rule that allows it because there isn't a shred of canon support for it but its sounds cool, and might possibly be plausible if we add all sorts of unsupported features to the known technology"

That's an amusing distortion of what I actually said... all I did was point out that metallic hydrogen is a material commonly found in massive quantities in nature, and that historically large ships involved in highly mobile operations have not had difficulties keeping their fighters fueled.

Though, as an addendum to that original line of inquiry, it would be decidedly odd if the Masters did NOT possess the technology to refine hydrogen fuels... their smaller ships have conventional engines like the Zentradi's, and of course their five million ship fleet of Zentradi needs fuel to keep those protoculture-powered fusion engines ticking over too. The only place to realistically get that much hydrogen to sustain forces on that scale for hundreds or thousands of years would be gas giants. It's also an unimpeachable fact in the RPG that the UEEF took large numbers of VF-1's with it, as well as Logans and other fusion-powered mecha. They had to obtain fuel from SOMEWHERE, that means there is infrastructure to produce that fuel somewhere in the UEEF's logistical chain even after losing contact with Earth (because, again, they kept using the VF-1's until the Beta's introduction in the late 2030's).

So again its your personal, unsupported, view that the reserves were not sufficient so this proves that they made more.

No, there's a whole episode devoted to the SDF-1 resupplying because the reserve supplies it had were NOT sufficient... technically two, in point of fact. (#7 and #20.)

So its your personal house rule that you are extrapolating from your personal interpretation of how you feel the system should work and not actually supported by any actual canon information at all and instead simply by your personal belief that it must exist. Thanks

Wrong again. As both ShadowLogan and I have mentioned in previous posts, the existence/requirement for a separate fuel tanks for space flight on the Alpha is a canon fact established by Harmony Gold, and one of the official reasons given for why the Alpha needs the Beta.

The existence/requirement of a separate fuel supply for protoculture-powered mecha and spacecraft is also evident in the RAW text of the Macross Saga sourcebook, which clearly indicates that the protoculture power system is powering fusion engines which provide the actual thrust. This "reflex furnace powering X thruster" seems to be consistent across every ship in the RPG except the Masters' motherships, which use a reactionless graviton drive instead.

It's not a house rule if it's literally in the book, man.

If you have evidence that these ships and fighters do not use reaction mass from a canon or RPG source, please present it.

You are the one making the assertion that Alphas require a separate fuel load, thus you bear the burden of proof. Please show me exactly where in the RPG it states that Alpha Fighters need separate fuel for space flight. I would like the text and page number please. And I am not talking about text that can be ambiguously interpreted to mean "separate fuel", I mean actual text saying a secondary fuel supply is needed to produce thrust in space for the Alpha.

[ByzantineBasileus]

(A few years back I looked at this in support of a different project for the 2E RPG). 1 of 3 impossible scenarios would have to work to allow for direct full thrust for the full month (IIRC I went with 14days of heavy use), PC cell has to be really heavy (and know Rand/Scott/Rook can carry multiple canisters of the stuff so this is out) or it expels the product at FTL velocity (which matter can not do, so it is out) or a combination of both (some balance between the two impossible things, it was just easier to give it dedicated space propellant).

For anyone interested. If we use the 1E RPG's specs for the Alpha's main engines. We assume that Rand/Rook are carrying 7 4pack canisters of PC and are at their PS carry limit (and ignore the weight of clothes, cases, etc) in "Curtain Call", it would require the Alpha's engines to exhaust matter at ~22x the Speed of light for 2 weeks of constant max thrust, just to reduce it to just under the speed of light requires EACH of those 16 canisters to have an additional mass of ~46kg over the value assumed in exceed the speed of light value. Rand and Rook (per NG SB) have a PS of 13 for a carry capacity of ~59kg (yet are shown carrying 28 not 1.x, and I'm not even counting other materials that would drag on their carry capacity).

Only for energy weapons, not for projectile weapons. I was just making the point that relying on a literal interpretation is not always helpful. My theory would be these magazines are located in slots on the legs. Otherwise there is not point to the weapon having magazines in the first place.

Why would that be any different? There are no slots on the legs though and there are examples of mecha haveing reloads mentioned w/n TSC book. Outside of the RPG there are cutaways that shoot that idea down.

Additional fuel could be meant in the context of an Alpha Fighter with can operate beyond the one month limitation if it is connected to the Beta. If it was low on Protoculture it could connect and get topped up.

Afraid not. The Beta would be operating during this time period to and it uses x2 as many cells as the Alpha. The Fuel in this context then can not be not PC. The Alpha does not get topped off by the Beta, the Beta acts as the Alpha's engines (it is a booster unit).

Given the heavier armour of the Alpha Fighter to its main-body, it is expected to get in close and thus take damage. It is not intended to evade missiles over long range or dog-fight against other aircraft. It is a strike fighter: meant to get in close against other ground and air mecha, taking the lead in attacks, taking out swarms with missiles and finishing up with the EU-13. The GU-11 is the main weapon of the
VF-1, whereas the MM-60 system is the main weapon of the Alpha Fighter. The EU-13 is there as a back-up weapon, I think, or to enable it to engage in "infantry" combat as a Battloid.

I totally disagree here. Avoiding damage is also important, even for get-in-close fighting. Each time the Alpha or VF-1 takes a hit, that means it will need additional repair time to fix. Which also means more parts you have to bring along.

The GU-11 and EU-13 are both mecha's primary guns, but they are secondary weapons to their missile systems.

I would assume that three to four extra magazines could be carried, and are stored in special slots in the main body or the legs.

All the cutaways I see fail to include the nose lasers, but they are still present in the RPG. Plus if they can fit short-range missiles and a cyclone in the frame, I am sure they could add slots to hold extra magazines. But that is digressing into fan-wank. The description of the text just seems to scream "extra magazines possible" for me.

Also, since no other fuel types are mentioned, then it has to be Protoculture. The RPG states the Alpha requires nothing except Protoculture cells to function. Any theories that other fuel is needed is without validity.

Well, since the Alpha is still very fast and nimble (+4 to dodge in flight, which the basic airframe of the VF-1 is not capable of without the fly-by-wire system), it is obviously meant to avoid being hit. It has chafe and smoke dispensers, superior ECM capabilities (-15% penalty compared to -20% for the VF-1) and its MM-60 system provides the ability to counter missiles. However, as a strike fight it is meant for close-combat, so there is an expectation that there is a higher risk of being damaged compared to the mission profile of the VF-1. Plus the larger number of Alphas mean they can function as infantry in a mechanize line battle as well.

[glitterboy2098]

actually HG's infopedia at robotech.com mentions limited tankage for space use.
" However, the limited fuel tankage of this craft gives it short legs in space, a deficiency that led to the development of the Beta Fighter, to which this mecha can attach."
https://web.archive.org/web/20070319224 ... .php?id=19


the RPG does not, however as no other palladium game actually tracks remass for space ships (even MiO only gives it a brief mention and provided no rules for it) this is not surprising.


i'm not sure the Alpha was designed for close combat as a fighter though. looking at it's stats inthe RPG, it comes across as much more of a 'paratrooper' design.
where the VF-1 valkyrie was designed as an aircraft with a humanoid mode for ground combat and a hybrid mode for VTOL operation,the Alpha comes across as being optimized more for use in battloid mode, like it's a battloid first, and the fighter mode was included to make it self deploying over longer distances.

in fact, the Alpha gives the rather distinct impression that it's basically an improved transforming version of the VF-1's "armored veritech" upgrade.. the MDC works out similar, the firepower is fairly close despite the loss of a few missiles, even the missile launcher layout is similar.
the smaller size and full flight ability in atmosphere just improve things. and it makes sense that if your designing things to optimize certain aspects (battloid mode flight, armor, and firepower), you are going to have to sacrifice something else (avionics, agility, speed)

[ByzantineBasileus]

actually HG's infopedia at robotech.com mentions limited tankage for space use.
" However, the limited fuel tankage of this craft gives it short legs in space, a deficiency that led to the development of the Beta Fighter, to which this mecha can attach."
https://web.archive.org/web/20070319224 ... .php?id=19


the RPG does not, however as no other palladium game actually tracks remass for space ships (even MiO only gives it a brief mention and provided no rules for it) this is not surprising.


i'm not sure the Alpha was designed for close combat as a fighter though. looking at it's stats inthe RPG, it comes across as much more of a 'paratrooper' design.
where the VF-1 valkyrie was designed as an aircraft with a humanoid mode for ground combat and a hybrid mode for VTOL operation,the Alpha comes across as being optimized more for use in battloid mode, like it's a battloid first, and the fighter mode was included to make it self deploying over longer distances.

in fact, the Alpha gives the rather distinct impression that it's basically an improved transforming version of the VF-1's "armored veritech" upgrade.. the MDC works out similar, the firepower is fairly close despite the loss of a few missiles, even the missile launcher layout is similar.
the smaller size and full flight ability in atmosphere just improve things. and it makes sense that if your designing things to optimize certain aspects (battloid mode flight, armor, and firepower), you are going to have to sacrifice something else (avionics, agility, speed)

The problem is that the profile does not mention what fuel is used, so the fuel storage quote could be interpreted in any number of ways. Since we lack any information about fuel on Robotech.com, we have to use the RPG stats which only describe Protoculture Cells, so from there one can only conclude the reference "short-legs" means extended operations beyond its carrier. Distances on a planet are vastly different to distances in space, so extended space operations require constant power for life-support as well as propulsion in terms of vectored thrust., and drains the cells more quickly.

The description for the Beta Fighter states "The Veritech Beta Fighter was developed as a heavily armed and armored booster system for the Alpha fighter to extend its range in space". This would also support my idea of the Beta being a support mechanism for an Alpha to operate independently within a solar system without returning to the carrier by providing more Protoculture energy for a whole range of systems, rather than just propellant for the engines.

[ShadowLogan]

You are the one making the assertion that Alphas require a separate fuel load, thus you bear the burden of proof. Please show me exactly where in the RPG it states that Alpha Fighters need separate fuel for space flight. I would like the text and page number please. And I am not talking about text that can be ambiguously interpreted to mean "separate fuel", I mean actual text saying a secondary fuel supply is needed to produce thrust in space for the Alpha.

The RPG IS supposed to be based upon the show titled Robotech and the OVA title "Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles". Supporting material that HG has approved states they have fuel issues that lead to "short-range", which necessitates the Beta.

All the cutaways I see fail to include the nose lasers, but they are still present in the RPG. Plus if they can fit short-range missiles and a cyclone in the frame, I am sure they could add slots to hold extra magazines. But that is digressing into fan-wank. The description of the text just seems to scream "extra magazines possible" for me.

I don't see anything identified as a nose laser in the two cut away sequences I'm familiar with, but then they don't actually identify sub-systems. In the Fighter mode I do see something that could be a nose laser though. There isn't any open space depicted to contain a spare EU-13 type magazine (let alone the EU-15) internally, it has to do it externally. In either case the book does not tell us how many reloads the Alpha is carrying, UNLIKE the Silverback which strongly points to the Alpha NOT having a reload for the EU-13.

Also, since no other fuel types are mentioned, then it has to be Protoculture. The RPG states the Alpha requires nothing except Protoculture cells to function. Any theories that other fuel is needed is without validity.

It is very valid. We know they have a backup fusion generator, since it doesn't use PC it has to use something else as I doubt it is a "Mr. Fusion" model. So right there we have a fuel source that isn't mentioned. We don't know what type of fuel the "Ejection System" uses.

And as I have said the physics do not work for the engines to provide full thrust via PC for the operational endurance listed, you need additional mass unless you think a Human PS score of 13 can carry tens of multiple canisters at once with a projected mass of nearly 50kg each. And that mass requirement goes up as the velocity of ejected material goes down, and the material can not be ejected at FTL velocities (matter can not travel at the speed of light, so it can't go faster). In an atmosphere the Alpha can use the air to provide additional mass, but in the vacuum of space its going to have to bring its own.

Well, since the Alpha is still very fast and nimble (+4 to dodge in flight, which the basic airframe of the VF-1 is not capable of without the fly-by-wire system), it is obviously meant to avoid being hit. It has chafe and smoke dispensers, superior ECM capabilities (-15% penalty compared to -20% for the VF-1) and its MM-60 system provides the ability to counter missiles. However, as a strike fight it is meant for close-combat, so there is an expectation that there is a higher risk of being damaged compared to the mission profile of the VF-1. Plus the larger number of Alphas mean they can function as infantry in a mechanize line battle as well.

It is entirely possible that due to the writing/editing process that NG-era hardware just lists the bonuses as one entity instead of the complex "MCE/SB" setup in the next two book eras.

The VF-1 carries more chaff/flares/smoke charges than the Alpha.

Counter missiles, that is what the VF-1 uses its head lasers for (yes the % work in favor of the missiles to counter a volley). And on the -1R model it has an automated cannon (defensive) and mini-missile system (anti-missile) that can work in that role to. Using the Alpha's SRMs for anti-missile work then means it doesn't have 60SRMs for offensive action, though it should be pointed out missile systems are rarely used by the Masters or Invid (who don't start using them until the 2040s by all indications).

The description for the Beta Fighter states "The Veritech Beta Fighter was developed as a heavily armed and armored booster system for the Alpha fighter to extend its range in space". This would also support my idea of the Beta being a support mechanism for an Alpha to operate independently within a solar system without returning to the carrier by providing more Protoculture energy for a whole range of systems, rather than just propellant for the engines.

That doesn't work. The Alpha and Beta really lack the life support endurance to operate for very long away from a carrier (48hrs, CVR-3 can extend it). In the Palladium "Space Propulsion" model, you aren't going to be doing any sort of solar system projection with mecha, they run out of air before they get anywhere (beside a one way trip from Earth to the Moon) at the max speeds the listed for the Beta (never mind the slower listed Alpha or VF-1). Distances in space w/n a Solar System are measured in Astronomical Units, one of which is approx. 93 MILLION Miles, Earth-Moon is about 1/4-million miles. Do you see the problem here?

[eliakon]

You are the one making the assertion that Alphas require a separate fuel load, thus you bear the burden of proof. Please show me exactly where in the RPG it states that Alpha Fighters need separate fuel for space flight. I would like the text and page number please. And I am not talking about text that can be ambiguously interpreted to mean "separate fuel", I mean actual text saying a secondary fuel supply is needed to produce thrust in space for the Alpha.

The RPG IS supposed to be based upon the show titled Robotech and the OVA title "Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles". Supporting material that HG has approved states they have fuel issues that lead to "short-range", which necessitates the Beta.

All the cutaways I see fail to include the nose lasers, but they are still present in the RPG. Plus if they can fit short-range missiles and a cyclone in the frame, I am sure they could add slots to hold extra magazines. But that is digressing into fan-wank. The description of the text just seems to scream "extra magazines possible" for me.

I don't see anything identified as a nose laser in the two cut away sequences I'm familiar with, but then they don't actually identify sub-systems. In the Fighter mode I do see something that could be a nose laser though. There isn't any open space depicted to contain a spare EU-13 type magazine (let alone the EU-15) internally, it has to do it externally. In either case the book does not tell us how many reloads the Alpha is carrying, UNLIKE the Silverback which strongly points to the Alpha NOT having a reload for the EU-13.

Also, since no other fuel types are mentioned, then it has to be Protoculture. The RPG states the Alpha requires nothing except Protoculture cells to function. Any theories that other fuel is needed is without validity.

It is very valid. We know they have a backup fusion generator, since it doesn't use PC it has to use something else as I doubt it is a "Mr. Fusion" model. So right there we have a fuel source that isn't mentioned. We don't know what type of fuel the "Ejection System" uses.

And as I have said the physics do not work for the engines to provide full thrust via PC for the operational endurance listed, you need additional mass unless you think a Human PS score of 13 can carry tens of multiple canisters at once with a projected mass of nearly 50kg each. And that mass requirement goes up as the velocity of ejected material goes down, and the material can not be ejected at FTL velocities (matter can not travel at the speed of light, so it can't go faster). In an atmosphere the Alpha can use the air to provide additional mass, but in the vacuum of space its going to have to bring its own.

Well, since the Alpha is still very fast and nimble (+4 to dodge in flight, which the basic airframe of the VF-1 is not capable of without the fly-by-wire system), it is obviously meant to avoid being hit. It has chafe and smoke dispensers, superior ECM capabilities (-15% penalty compared to -20% for the VF-1) and its MM-60 system provides the ability to counter missiles. However, as a strike fight it is meant for close-combat, so there is an expectation that there is a higher risk of being damaged compared to the mission profile of the VF-1. Plus the larger number of Alphas mean they can function as infantry in a mechanize line battle as well.

It is entirely possible that due to the writing/editing process that NG-era hardware just lists the bonuses as one entity instead of the complex "MCE/SB" setup in the next two book eras.

The VF-1 carries more chaff/flares/smoke charges than the Alpha.

Counter missiles, that is what the VF-1 uses its head lasers for (yes the % work in favor of the missiles to counter a volley). And on the -1R model it has an automated cannon (defensive) and mini-missile system (anti-missile) that can work in that role to. Using the Alpha's SRMs for anti-missile work then means it doesn't have 60SRMs for offensive action, though it should be pointed out missile systems are rarely used by the Masters or Invid (who don't start using them until the 2040s by all indications).

The description for the Beta Fighter states "The Veritech Beta Fighter was developed as a heavily armed and armored booster system for the Alpha fighter to extend its range in space". This would also support my idea of the Beta being a support mechanism for an Alpha to operate independently within a solar system without returning to the carrier by providing more Protoculture energy for a whole range of systems, rather than just propellant for the engines.

That doesn't work. The Alpha and Beta really lack the life support endurance to operate for very long away from a carrier (48hrs, CVR-3 can extend it). In the Palladium "Space Propulsion" model, you aren't going to be doing any sort of solar system projection with mecha, they run out of air before they get anywhere (beside a one way trip from Earth to the Moon) at the max speeds the listed for the Beta (never mind the slower listed Alpha or VF-1). Distances in space w/n a Solar System are measured in Astronomical Units, one of which is approx. 93 MILLION Miles, Earth-Moon is about 1/4-million miles. Do you see the problem here?

Yes I see the problem here. The problem is that this is all just a fancy way of avoiding the request for proof by saying "Well it has tanks. We think therefor that those tanks hold an undefined space fuel that powers its undefined space engines because tanks"
Its a nice bit of FANON but its not remotely meeting the burden of proof for the assertion of a new fact (that fact being that there is an unnamed and undescribed drive with unnamed and undescribed fuel). ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that those 'tanks' and 'legs' could refer to tanks of protoculure and/or air tanks.

[Colonel Wolfe]

How do you mean suffer in tankage space?

Outside of the RPG one of the reasons given for the development of the Beta was the Alpha's limited propellant tankage (separate from the PC). It isn't mentioned w/re to the Alpha in the 2E RPG, but is mentioned in the Beta entry (pg112m "It also increase the Alpa's fuel capacity"). Propellant is a generic term, that includes both fuel and oxidizer in rocketry. So in space a given mecha's propellant load is important. Said factor is not really considered or addressed in the game stats, fortunately/unfortunately depending on one's POV.

"Limited Tankage" was dismissed by the Shadow Chronicles movie, when Alex and Marcus are on a routine patrol of the earth debris field in only Aplhas and are able to taxi their and back to the moon with no additional equipment. They also are able to do so in a relative few hours as their is no indication they spent several days inside the Alpha cockpit (as it also lacks the space to keep enough supplies for that long of an endeavor.

[Seto Kaiba]

The RPG IS supposed to be based upon the show titled Robotech and the OVA title "Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles". Supporting material that HG has approved states they have fuel issues that lead to "short-range", which necessitates the Beta.

Even in the RPG, there are countless examples that show that protoculture-powered engines are consuming something else as fuel... most of them are presented as fusion engines of some description. It's actually kind of bizarre that, of all the protoculture-powered mecha in the game, the Alpha and Beta are the ones where there's nothing said about their actual engines... just the fighter's main power system.

We know protoculture-powered engines use some other material as propellant/fuel, courtesy of the various sourcebooks that came after. The question is just whether it's a fusion engine of some description, and ion engine, or chemical rocket. (For the size of the craft, my money is on ion engine, since that's as close as you'll get to a multifuel space propulsion system.) It's not as simple as a VF-1 or Logan using its own reactor's waste plasma as propellant, but it could arguably be safer to store the fuel.

That said, nicely reasoned as always.

It is entirely possible that due to the writing/editing process that NG-era hardware just lists the bonuses as one entity instead of the complex "MCE/SB" setup in the next two book eras.

That sounds plausible.

[taalismn]

We know protoculture-powered engines use some other material as propellant/fuel, courtesy of the various sourcebooks that came after. The question is just whether it's a fusion engine of some description, and ion engine, or chemical rocket. (For the size of the craft, my money is on ion engine, since that's as close as you'll get to a multifuel space propulsion system.) .

Yeah, but aren't ion engines good on fuel economy, but lousy on deliverable power? While they've been considered for interplanetary and even interstellar flight, it's the slow acceleration that draws out the initial stages of any trip made with them.

[glitterboy2098]

zentreadi and masters mecha use Plasma engines in the RPG. Plasma drives can get fairly good thrust by theory, we just lack the hardware IRL to pull it off because of the amount of power they use relative to the thrust.

the RPG doesn't mention what kind of drives the alpha uses, but odds are it is derived from Zentreadi/masters tech the way the PC powerplant is. so Plasma seems fairly likely. perhaps married to human design concepts like VASIMR,

[Seto Kaiba]

We know protoculture-powered engines use some other material as propellant/fuel, courtesy of the various sourcebooks that came after. The question is just whether it's a fusion engine of some description, and ion engine, or chemical rocket. (For the size of the craft, my money is on ion engine, since that's as close as you'll get to a multifuel space propulsion system.) .

Yeah, but aren't ion engines good on fuel economy, but lousy on deliverable power? While they've been considered for interplanetary and even interstellar flight, it's the slow acceleration that draws out the initial stages of any trip made with them.

Well, yes... but the amount of thrust is contingent upon the amount of juice you're willing to fling into the engine. The Alpha uses a power source that's better than "conventional nuclear sources", so it probably has the go-juice to spare. Though, I have to admit, I think glitterboy2098's view probably makes the most sense... and would be technologically building-upon the VF-1's engines.

[ShadowLogan]

Yes I see the problem here. The problem is that this is all just a fancy way of avoiding the request for proof by saying "Well it has tanks. We think therefor that those tanks hold an undefined space fuel that powers its undefined space engines because tanks"
Its a nice bit of FANON but its not remotely meeting the burden of proof for the assertion of a new fact (that fact being that there is an unnamed and undescribed drive with unnamed and undescribed fuel). ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that those 'tanks' and 'legs' could refer to tanks of protoculure and/or air tanks.

The Robotech RPG, unlike other Palladium lines (that aren't licenced), does have non-game material that it is connected to it, some of which has more authority in discussions than the 2E RPG (some of which I don't agree with being used admidtly). So if that material says X, but the RPG is quiet (or out right contradictory) it is not fanon like it would be in Rifts if we point to that material. For example: pg116 of the Manga TSC main book states "For the Beta to change from fighter to guardian or battloid mode, the two Veritechs must separate.", which is direct contradiction to the show where Scott connects to the G-Mode Beta, not to mention when the Beta section of his essentially assumes G-mode to use the two leg thrusters to slow down. And dropping the legs is the extent of the Beta's G-Mode transformation from F-G.

We can definatly go with fuel/propellant tanks though. From Art of the Shadow Chronicles pg 80, "...the Beta's vast fuel capacity allows for greater raw-thrust capabilities, especially in space." To provide that raw-thrust, for the maximum operational duration of the RPG in space just does not checkout by the Math & Physics without providing some other reaction mass (in atmosphere it can suck in air for that purpose).

"Limited Tankage" was dismissed by the Shadow Chronicles movie, when Alex and Marcus are on a routine patrol of the earth debris field in only Aplhas and are able to taxi their and back to the moon with no additional equipment. They also are able to do so in a relative few hours as their is no indication they spent several days inside the Alpha cockpit (as it also lacks the space to keep enough supplies for that long of an endeavor.

Not exactly. What we see in TSC may be them redefining what "limited tankage" (or "short legs in space") means, without necessarily understanding consequences of their actions. Consequences that have been debated several times over between Seto and myself.

the Alpha and Beta are the ones where there's nothing said about their actual engines... just the fighter's main power system.

True, but we also have to remember that the two later arcs are written by someone else so different writers may have different levels of "techie" consideration and/or thought just as the 3 most recent SBs are different compared to Markers, which is different from Siembieda (who edits the two previous ones). Do we need a "revised" RPG edition already?

We know protoculture-powered engines use some other material as propellant/fuel, courtesy of the various sourcebooks that came after. The question is just whether it's a fusion engine of some description, and ion engine, or chemical rocket.

1st we can definitely rule out chemical rocket, or anything approaching conventional chemical rockets. They are too inefficient unless we go with something exotic (like SLMH they have).

The electric class engines (Ion and Plasma, which operate differently), The Ion Rocket takes more energy than the Plasma Rocket for the same unit of thrust (2100kw vs 150kw, if 1kw=1kv) per a NASA web-page (http://www.history.nasa.gov/conghand/propulsn.htm). That would seem to favor Plasma as the choice and not Ion.

It is also possible they simply just heat the propellant via the PC reactions (Reflex furnace?) directly (instead of drawing energy from it to power an Electric-class propulsion system) before expelling it (though it is not necessarily the most efficient approach) like they could do in the airbreathing engine mode.

Well if want to get technical based on the show, "Bye Bye Mars" does have 3 multi-colored feed lines being "filled" when the Reflex Furnace is brought on line. If that is any indication, it is possible we have 3 different materials being used in a PC fueld reflex furnace, 1 PC and 2 mundane things not worth mentioning. Which would likely brings us back to using the basic fusion approach (expelling waste material).

[Seto Kaiba]

The Robotech RPG, unlike other Palladium lines (that aren't licenced), does have non-game material that it is connected to it, some of which has more authority in discussions than the 2E RPG (some of which I don't agree with being used admidtly). So if that material says X, but the RPG is quiet (or out right contradictory) it is not fanon like it would be in Rifts if we point to that material.

Yep... depending on whether or not the change affects the crunch, it's either supplementary canon source or a house rule. In this case, since nobody is proposing adding a propellant budget mechanic to the game, it's just a supplementary canon source.

True, but we also have to remember that the two later arcs are written by someone else so different writers may have different levels of "techie" consideration and/or thought just as the 3 most recent SBs are different compared to Markers, which is different from Siembieda (who edits the two previous ones). Do we need a "revised" RPG edition already?

Considering all the extant issues between the core book and Macross Saga source book WRT the fusion "retcon", the inconsistent presentation of location-based MDC, and all the continuity and crunch issues that've emerged in subsequent source books like the Marines book, I'd find it nigh-impossible to argue that a revised edition isn't emphatically necessary and long overdue.

It is also possible they simply just heat the propellant via the PC reactions (Reflex furnace?) directly (instead of drawing energy from it to power an Electric-class propulsion system) before expelling it (though it is not necessarily the most efficient approach) like they could do in the airbreathing engine mode.

Possible, but definitely not the most efficient approach... esp. in the context of the RPG, where the main use of protoculture power in spacecraft propulsion seems to be powering a pulse-detonation fusion engine. Probably laser-based inertial confinement fusion... the Neutron-S missiles seem to argue they probably don't have the technology to use artificial gravity fields to initiate and moderate the reaction.

Well if want to get technical based on the show, "Bye Bye Mars" does have 3 multi-colored feed lines being "filled" when the Reflex Furnace is brought on line. If that is any indication, it is possible we have 3 different materials being used in a PC fueld reflex furnace, 1 PC and 2 mundane things not worth mentioning. Which would likely brings us back to using the basic fusion approach (expelling waste material).

Assuming that it works anything like the marginally more conventional reactor Salla Base used in the original, one of those lines is the coolant loop carrying heat away from the reaction chamber, and the other two are almost certainly fuel in and spent fuel out.*

Since the typical use of protoculture power for space flight in the RPG seems to be using protoculture to power a fusion engine, that greatly raises the complexity of the whole affair.

* Salla Base's reactor in the original Macross series was an early-type GIC-controlled thermonuclear reaction furnace, which would have used hydrogen slush for fuel. You'd need three sets of lines into the reactor. One feed line to introduce hydrogen fuel to the reaction chamber, one feed line to remove excess plasma from the reaction (since the reactor in question was a ground-based static unit), and one coolant loop to keep the reactor within a safe operating temperature range.

[Colonel Wolfe]

"Limited Tankage" was dismissed by the Shadow Chronicles movie, when Alex and Marcus are on a routine patrol of the earth debris field in only Aplhas and are able to taxi their and back to the moon with no additional equipment. They also are able to do so in a relative few hours as their is no indication they spent several days inside the Alpha cockpit (as it also lacks the space to keep enough supplies for that long of an endeavor.

Not exactly. What we see in TSC may be them redefining what "limited tankage" (or "short legs in space") means, without necessarily understanding consequences of their actions. Consequences that have been debated several times over between Seto and myself.

regardless of your debates with another poster on the subject, its Clear from the animated product that They (the IP owners) want the Alpha to be able to make that trip on its own in a relatively short period of time, w/o aid of the beta. otherwise they would have animated in Beta's for the characters. Animated products trumps nonsensical conjectures and cherry-picked facts based off secondary (art-books, websites and comics) and tertiary sources (OSM, personal bias ect.) used by some to support their clear efforts to prove the inferiority of technology that is shown in the series-canon to be demonstrably superior.

[ShadowLogan]

Possible, but definitely not the most efficient approach... esp. in the context of the RPG, where the main use of protoculture power in spacecraft propulsion seems to be powering a pulse-detonation fusion engine. Probably laser-based inertial confinement fusion... the Neutron-S missiles seem to argue they probably don't have the technology to use artificial gravity fields to initiate and moderate the reaction.

It would depend on a variety of factors actually, but it is possible for it to be as efficient. Propellant selection, method/efficiency of heat transfer, the actual temps involved, etc. It also depends on what we compare it to.

I recall an article in Aviation Week & Space Technology from 1988 (still have a fax copy of it, though its pretty bad, I did transcribe it years ago though) about two hypothetical MAMA-engines (in a USAF study) one "simple" one more "complex" and the difference was 1,200 vs 20,000sec and both used the MAMA to heat the propellant (and that wasn't the maximum either they stated in the article for a MAMA system). We know PC is supposed to be more energy dense than nuclear, though I doubt it is as energy dense as MAMA, still as this shows there can be a wide margin when it comes to efficiency with this basic approach (conventional generic nuclear fission tops out at around 1,200seconds or so depending IIRC using the direct heating method).

Assuming that it works anything like the marginally more conventional reactor Salla Base used in the original, one of those lines is the coolant loop carrying heat away from the reaction chamber, and the other two are almost certainly fuel in and spent fuel out.*

Why would the graphic though showing the line-out "filling" toward the reactor instead of away? They also wanted to overload the reactor, so I would think they would have closed that line off instead of allowing it to feed in. Its also possible the graphic is more limited in the information it is presenting.

regardless of your debates with another poster on the subject, its Clear from the animated product that They (the IP owners) want the Alpha to be able to make that trip on its own in a relatively short period of time, w/o aid of the beta. otherwise they would have animated in Beta's for the characters. Animated products trumps nonsensical conjectures and cherry-picked facts based off secondary (art-books, websites and comics) and tertiary sources (OSM, personal bias ect.) used by some to support their clear efforts to prove the inferiority of technology that is shown in the series-canon to be demonstrably superio

I agree that at face value that IS what HG wants to do.

However that action has consequences. Namely from a propulsion standpoint they have just demonstrated the Alpha can do Single Stage to Orbit. Something they say it can't do. They can't have it both ways.

[Colonel Wolfe]

However that action has consequences. Namely from a propulsion standpoint they have just demonstrated the Alpha can do Single Stage to Orbit. Something they say it can't do. They can't have it both ways.

They don't have it both ways, Production animation > other sources. regardless of whats written in a art book or on a website, they made the decision to ignore that and produce it in a different manner.
It like Lucas writing in a art-book that Jar-Jar Binks is the Smartest and most graceful creature from Naboo.... what he produced in the movie says otherwise.
in Robotech, that the uRRG and OSM says about the Alpha can be disregarded whole cloth because we see Alex and Marcus make the trip with no issues.

[Jefffar]

It could be that short range takes on a different meaning in the UEEF era, with flights from earth orbit to lunar orbit being short range for a fighter and interplanetary journies being plausible for a long range fighter.

Seeing as the UEEF was fighting a war thousands of light years from earth, a jaunt to the moon seems pretty short.

[Alrik Vas]

And saying the animation trumps "nonsensical" theory by people attempting to make sense of it suggests the writers are doing anything but saying, "we thought it'd be cool."

I'm not saying the writers have to be scientists, but let's be a bit more careful about what we deem nonsensical.

[Colonel Wolfe]

And saying the animation trumps "nonsensical" theory by people attempting to make sense of it suggests the writers are doing anything but saying, "we thought it'd be cool."

I'm not saying the writers have to be scientists, but let's be a bit more careful about what we deem nonsensical.

unfortunately, We play a game that lives in the world they create on screen... ignoring what they show us on screen to support a tertiary source's stats on the design is utter nonsense. see, there is a clearly defined lack of proof that the reason said tech is doing what is shown doing follow the "rule of cool". mayhaps they simple were lazy animator and decided not to include the beta in that scene, or weren't thinking about how long the trip would have been in an alpha alone when they wrote the scene, but that become irrelevant when the finished product shows us that the tech can easily do that. when someone champions their "proof" to discredit the 2006 animation/movie is OSM details from the 1980's it become suspect that they are cherry picking OSM details and forgetting that the OSM's factoids are not defacto proof of anything in Robotech.
The show and movie are a common point all fans have access to, and the RPG should look to allow players to mimic what is seen in them without having to write 25 pages of house rules... not "realism" as people try to claim, but verisimilitude.

It could be that short range takes on a different meaning in the UEEF era, with flights from earth orbit to lunar orbit being short range for a fighter and interplanetary journies being plausible for a long range fighter

The TREAD/DREAD in MOSPEDA was designed to carry the Alpha form Mars to Earth.... that is usually forgotten when people cherry pick OSM factoids. Moon to low earth orbit would easily within the realm of "short-legs" by even the OSM details...

[glitterboy2098]

actually, no it wasn't.
in MOSPEADA the craft that carried mecha from mars to earth were the (MOSPEADA versions of the) Ikazuchi, Garfish, and Horizon-T transports.

these larger craft carried the Legios and TREADs docked to them or in internal bays. the Legios and TREADs don't even get launched until those larger ships were in earth orbit and needed defense from the Inbit.

the TREAD was designed to give the Legios fighter greater thrust and firepower for combat, nothing more. though the fact it was made a full mecha for the later part of the series is why Robotech could afford to make it a bomber role.. in MOSPEADA it mostly gets used as an unmanned booster.

[Colonel Wolfe]

actually, no it wasn't.
in MOSPEADA the craft that carried mecha from mars to earth were the (MOSPEADA versions of the) Ikazuchi, Garfish, and Horizon-T transports.

these larger craft carried the Legios and TREADs docked to them or in internal bays. the Legios and TREADs don't even get launched until those larger ships were in earth orbit and needed defense from the Inbit.

the TREAD was designed to give the Legios fighter greater thrust and firepower for combat, nothing more. though the fact it was made a full mecha for the later part of the series is why Robotech could afford to make it a bomber role.. in MOSPEADA it mostly gets used as an unmanned booster.

unfortunatly the Designer of the TREAd/Dread disagrees with you, as in early statages it was designed purely to do that: "The "Dread" name for this Tread prototype is from Dreadnought. A block of propellant and engines to carry a Legioss from Mars to the Earth sphere... is what I was going for. Below is the first sketch drawn around 1983. I designed it in the style of the Nostromo from Alien but the director said it "doesn’t look like a flying mecha without wings!" so it was rejected."- Kakinuma Hideki 2007 interview in Hobby Japan.

[glitterboy2098]

he was being asked about it's aesthetics, not it's role. and it's role was "booster used in combat" by both OSm and the actual footage.
the artist may have had an idea in his head when drawing it, but that doesn't mean the writing staff or other members of the creative team shared it or even considered it.

you know, unless you want to cherry pick lines from the OSm and spin them out of context. or use said out of context OSM lines and apply them to Robotech.

[Colonel Wolfe]

he was being asked about it's aesthetics, not it's role. and it's role was "booster used in combat" by both OSm and the actual footage.

except that part where he mentions it being able to go from Mars to Earth

you know, unless you want to cherry pick lines from the OSm and spin them out of context. or use said out of context OSM lines and apply them to Robotech.

If one person is allowed to play "hi-ho cherry-o" with the facts, everyone should. If were to apply teritary source's of information over the fact presented in the animated features of the show, then we should accept them even when they don't follow the "Alpha-sucks" narrative spun by some.
Taking the Design intent from the Creator whole-cloth, the Beta/Dread was an Interplanetary platform, the Alpha being able to make it to the moon and back on its own in a reasonable amount of time isn't out of the question considering his design intent with the Beta/Dread.

[eliakon]

he was being asked about it's aesthetics, not it's role. and it's role was "booster used in combat" by both OSm and the actual footage.

except that part where he mentions it being able to go from Mars to Earth

you know, unless you want to cherry pick lines from the OSm and spin them out of context. or use said out of context OSM lines and apply them to Robotech.

If one person is allowed to play "hi-ho cherry-o" with the facts, everyone should. If were to apply teritary source's of information over the fact presented in the animated features of the show, then we should accept them even when they don't follow the "Alpha-sucks" narrative spun by some.
Taking the Design intent from the Creator whole-cloth, the Beta/Dread was an Interplanetary platform, the Alpha being able to make it to the moon and back on its own in a reasonable amount of time isn't out of the question considering his design intent with the Beta/Dread.

One artists (not a writer but an artist) idea of what inspired his visual model of the mecha is not really much support for "this is the official canon role of the mecha" Now if you can find a quote from the writing team that this was its role, that would be support....but the artists are generally not the ones setting the script

And no, NO ONE gets to Cherry Pick. There is a reason that Cherry Picking is considered a logical fallacy, because it deliberately distorts the facts to fit the pre-conceived narrative, not fitting the narrative to the facts.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

One artists (not a writer but an artist) idea of what inspired his visual model of the mecha is not really much support for "this is the official canon role of the mecha" Now if you can find a quote from the writing team that this was its role, that would be support....but the artists are generally not the ones setting the script

Really? Hideki Kakinuma is not "one artist". He is one of the two Mechanical Designers from Studio ARTMIC that came up with the basis for the show. Cause if that is the case, then Shoji Kawamori and Kazuki Miyatake's opinions on the capabilities of the Valkyries and Destroids mean nothing.

[eliakon]

One artists (not a writer but an artist) idea of what inspired his visual model of the mecha is not really much support for "this is the official canon role of the mecha" Now if you can find a quote from the writing team that this was its role, that would be support....but the artists are generally not the ones setting the script

Really? Hideki Kakinuma is not "one artist". He is one of the two Mechanical Designers from Studio ARTMIC that came up with the basis for the show. Cause if that is the case, then Shoji Kawamori and Kazuki Miyatake's opinions on the capabilities of the Valkyries and Destroids mean nothing.

Was he one of the people who wrote the script? This is rather specifically important. As the quote (which is out of context and being cherry picked) said the artistic inspiration was that what became the beta was a propellant pack that shuttled them from Mars.
Since we know that they ended up being something else, and he talks about disagreements from the production team it sounds like his personal vision of the purpose of this mecha was not the One True Way. Which means that his personal inspiration is not a basis for assigning the mecha stats, or overturning the established material.

[Seto Kaiba]

It would depend on a variety of factors actually, but it is possible for it to be as efficient. Propellant selection, method/efficiency of heat transfer, the actual temps involved, etc. It also depends on what we compare it to.

Very true... I've often attributed the Alpha's inability to achieve suborbital flight to the reduction in turbine size and resulting loss of heat-transfer surface area and compressor-stage volume inside the engine. That way, it doesn't require the engine to be inferior to those of previous generations in terms of efficiency or quality... it can instead be attributed to a necessary trade-off to get turbines small enough to fit in the Alpha's airframe.

Why would the graphic though showing the line-out "filling" toward the reactor instead of away? They also wanted to overload the reactor, so I would think they would have closed that line off instead of allowing it to feed in. Its also possible the graphic is more limited in the information it is presenting.

Possibly they're using some kind of magnetic fluid or simply a polarized and magnetically-shielded pipe for the plasma siphon? The reactors in the original are technically multifuel, but they almost invariably use hydrogen slush because you can get hydrogen just about anywhere.

It could be that short range takes on a different meaning in the UEEF era, with flights from earth orbit to lunar orbit being short range for a fighter and interplanetary journies being plausible for a long range fighter.

Seeing as the UEEF was fighting a war thousands of light years from earth, a jaunt to the moon seems pretty short.

That carries some interesting implications for the VF-1's used by the UEEF Marines as well... if the Alpha, with its less powerful but more numerous engines, were an SSTO-capable craft, the VF-1 could potentially have interplanetary range if not for the RPG's life support system limitations on all VF's.

(OSM-ly, the VF-1 was capable of some fairly impressive range with the appropriate space-use equipment... and was used for near-space patrols during the timeskip, according to The Lost Two Years. The TLEAD in MOSPEADA was also capable of one-way flight from Earth to the Moon or vice versa if properly supplied and fully fueled.)

And saying the animation trumps "nonsensical" theory by people attempting to make sense of it suggests the writers are doing anything but saying, "we thought it'd be cool."

I'm not saying the writers have to be scientists, but let's be a bit more careful about what we deem nonsensical.

We also have to be very careful about matters like that, because TPTB at Harmony Gold aren't exactly known for giving animation priority when determining canon. The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles supports the contention that the Alpha is not capable of reaching orbit under its own power (explicitly stated, pg79) and that its limited fuel tanks "greatly restrict" its range in space. (The moon in RTSC seems to be a good deal closer to Earth than it is in reality, or in the original series, definitely well into the Conveniently Close Planet range.)

actually, no it wasn't.
in MOSPEADA the craft that carried mecha from mars to earth were the (MOSPEADA versions of the) Ikazuchi, Garfish, and Horizon-T transports.

these larger craft carried the Legios and TREADs docked to them or in internal bays. the Legios and TREADs don't even get launched until those larger ships were in earth orbit and needed defense from the Inbit.

Everyone always forgets that they also had a staging area on the moon in MOSPEADA...

The OSM versions of the Ikazuchi and Garfish actually don't carry any mecha other than Legioss armo-fighters... TLEADs are too big to fit in their launch bays (they're much smaller than their RT counterparts) and lack large internal hangars. There were around 160 Horizont shuttles and 200 independent Legioss+TLEAD combiners in the 2nd Earth Recapture Mission force to which Stick and the 21st Battle Company were attached. (Again, the trip from the moon is much shorter... but I'm sure Mars Colony's forces got strictly warned to use the bathroom BEFORE they left the moon.)

(Source is Entertainment Archive 8: MOSPEADA: Complete Art Works pages 64-69.)

the TREAD was designed to give the Legios fighter greater thrust and firepower for combat, nothing more. though the fact it was made a full mecha for the later part of the series is why Robotech could afford to make it a bomber role.. in MOSPEADA it mostly gets used as an unmanned booster.

Not s'much thrust as range, but the rest is pretty much accurate... the Legioss was not intended to be a space fighter in the OSM.

[eliakon]

I am confused on why the fact that the Alpha can not make escape velocity on its own means that it doesn't have range...
speed =/= distance.

[Seto Kaiba]

I am confused on why the fact that the Alpha can not make escape velocity on its own means that it doesn't have range...
speed =/= distance.

Those two issues with the Alpha's flight performance aren't actually presented as directly related in the official material. The Alpha's service ceiling is too low for it to achieve suborbital flight unassisted, and its limited fuel capacity greatly restricts its range in space.

The connection gets drawn in the physics involved in space flight... particularly delta-v budgets. Assuming the Alpha's engines work equally well in space and atmosphere, if it can't produce enough acceleration for a suborbital flight path then a flight from the moon to low Earth orbit just ain't in the cards, delta-v-wise. Especially if it's straight-line flight instead of exploiting orbital transfer windows and other space flight cheats. (ShadowLogan can probably explain the physics involved in much greater detail than I can.)

[eliakon]

I am confused on why the fact that the Alpha can not make escape velocity on its own means that it doesn't have range...
speed =/= distance.

Those two issues with the Alpha's flight performance aren't actually presented as directly related in the official material. The Alpha's service ceiling is too low for it to achieve suborbital flight unassisted, and its limited fuel capacity greatly restricts its range in space.

The connection gets drawn in the physics involved in space flight... particularly delta-v budgets. Assuming the Alpha's engines work equally well in space and atmosphere, if it can't produce enough acceleration for a suborbital flight path then a flight from the moon to low Earth orbit just ain't in the cards, delta-v-wise. Especially if it's straight-line flight instead of exploiting orbital transfer windows and other space flight cheats. (ShadowLogan can probably explain the physics involved in much greater detail than I can.)

Yeah....except that we already have pretty good evidence in the show that what ever they are using as drives it doesn't use physics as we understand it....
Since they have stuff like top speeds, and constant thrust to go certain speeds.....so yah, I am going to just call the applied phelembotium what it is.

(And yes I am going to go out there and say that I consider the show to be the primary source and trump any secondary source.....)

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah....except that we already have pretty good evidence in the show that what ever they are using as drives it doesn't use physics as we understand it....

Eh... can't say I agree. With the sole exceptions of the Robotech Masters' mothership and the gravity control systems used by ships for hovering, everything we see is pretty thoroughly explainable by "physics as we understand it". Thrust-based propulsion is kinda old news, from a physics standpoint... the ships have great, big, highly visible engine nozzles, the fighters and other mecha exhibit nice, highly visible plumes of exhaust from engines. Rocket propulsion goes back to what, the 13th century? The physics of motion in a vacuum were sorted out in the 17th century. Even fusion engines being used for space flight isn't new or novel... the physics and conceptual implementation have been sorted out for decades. The theory behind ion engine technology was proposed over a century ago.

Since they have stuff like top speeds, and constant thrust to go certain speeds.....so yah, I am going to just call the applied phelembotium what it is.

That's not attributed to protoculture in any way and it's not significant to the plot, so it's not applied phlebotinum... it's a cinematic trope called space friction that's done to make space fight choreography more exciting.

[Colonel Wolfe]

(And yes I am going to go out there and say that I consider the show to be the primary source and trump any secondary source.....)

A secondary source would be a comic, RPG book or an Art book based off the product... in many cases the OSM should be considered a tertiary source or a non-source in the case of Robotech as its story and history of technological development would make zero sense if you take the series as a whole cloth instead of the patchwork of its production.
Shojimbo Kawamoron's opnions and expostfacto canon about his SD-macrose productions have little to zero to do with Robotech as he wasn't involved in its production.
yes, I did supply a quote from a MOSPEDA creator, but that's because its usually quotes form the OSM that are Hi-ho Cherry-O'd by some in the community to discount the effectiveness of the Alpha, or at worse, refer to the Unit as a "coffin-with-wings"

[ShadowLogan]

They don't have it both ways, Production animation > other sources. regardless of whats written in a art book or on a website, they made the decision to ignore that and produce it in a different manner.

Actually they are trying to have it both ways. The Website can be updated (one round of this basic topic resulted in the VF-1 entry being updated IINM after it came to Tommy's attention, but just regurgitated OSM position). It never was. Plus the supporting material they putt out for TSC (like AotSC or 2E RPG) certainly would also have been a good time to put out an update like that.

in Robotech, that the uRRG and OSM says about the Alpha can be disregarded whole cloth because we see Alex and Marcus make the trip with no issues.

If we use the uRRG figures, the Alpha fighter (non-Z types and only on internal) can barely take-off from the surface of the Moon and achieve orbit around the Moon, it can't do a Lunar-surface-to-Earth-orbit trajectory. And by "barely" I mean "barely" it wouldn't have enough capacity left to land safely after launching itself into lunar orbit. I do not like the idea of using OSM material, and the uRRG material is "unofficial".

It like Lucas writing in a art-book that Jar-Jar Binks is the Smartest and most graceful creature from Naboo.... what he produced in the movie says otherwise.

Didn't you know that Jar-Jar Binks is really the Master Mind behind it all, Palpatine was just his front-man? His dumb clumsy oaf routine is just an act.

It could be that short range takes on a different meaning in the UEEF era, with flights from earth orbit to lunar orbit being short range for a fighter and interplanetary journies being plausible for a long range fighter.

When vague terminology like "short range" appears, yes I can agree with you there, but HG maintains the Alpha is non-tranatmospheric and can not achieve sub-orbital altitude on its own, which is far from being vague as both have clear meanings. From a propulsion standpoint measured in Delta-V terms, the flight in question undertaken by two Alphas (plus the fleet action later) is in direct opposition to that viewpoint, along with the basic operations shown in the animation for the 85 ep.

Just off the 85ep I do not rule out trans-atmsopheric or sub-orbital flight because of craft like Space Ship One and the X-15, both of which achieved sub-orbital status with only a paltry ~1kps of Delta-V available. If we go with OSM numbers (or the uRRG's) that HG seems to want to use (instead of doing a proper self-generated continuity on their own) then the Alpha should have no trouble on internal reaction mass in achieving sub-orbital flight (exhausted yes, but done). So at minimum the animation runs counter to their claim. TSC just put a hole in the idea big enough to fly an Alpha through.

And no, NO ONE gets to Cherry Pick. There is a reason that Cherry Picking is considered a logical fallacy, because it deliberately distorts the facts to fit the pre-conceived narrative, not fitting the narrative to the facts.

Actually HG does. They do essentially cherry pick from the various narratives they tossed out in 2000-ish with the reboot/re-ogranization that was not 85ep in continuing the story. In using the OSM they have to cherry pick since some information has to be changed to match the script.

I am confused on why the fact that the Alpha can not make escape velocity on its own means that it doesn't have range...
speed =/= distance.

Because "range" in a physics sense for space flight is directly linked to velocity (speed/direction) for a vehicle. Unlike in an atmosphere/planetary bound vehicle where range is more independent of speed/velocity. "Range" in space for a propulsion system is measured in Delta-V (units are velocity) rather than strictly distance. Thrust is a factor if you want time (to get to the velocity quickly) or to overcome gravity (for surface-orbit launches). So if we are looking at the Alpha's (or any vehicle's) range in space, we are talking it's Delta-V budget actually and not a measure of "# of km/miles". And since delta-V budget goes into achieving orbit (even when launched from the surface of Earth or a planet/moon) the range in space can determine if it can get into orbit, available orbital parameters, location of launch, and even payload.

Yeah....except that we already have pretty good evidence in the show that what ever they are using as drives it doesn't use physics as we understand it....

While there are examples of such mechansims in the show (Fold, Anti-Gravity Pods, Bio-Magnetic Induction Network) the mecha appear based on animation and dialogue to be subject to physics as we understand it. Where we see it break down is with Palladium's adaptation to their grossly inaccurate space rules, not the show itself.

The show itself establishes the VF-1 engines are based on a reactor design (ep5 IINM), and the VF-1 has fuel to leak. No one every says the other VFs deviate from this (PC is essentially reactor fuel). And we know how a "reactor based engine" will work in theory and practice.

Very true... I've often attributed the Alpha's inability to achieve suborbital flight to the reduction in turbine size and resulting loss of heat-transfer surface area and compressor-stage volume inside the engine. That way, it doesn't require the engine to be inferior to those of previous generations in terms of efficiency or quality... it can instead be attributed to a necessary trade-off to get turbines small enough to fit in the Alpha's airframe.

I don't think there was a loss in turbine size though (or at least a significant one), at least going off the RT.com Size comparison chart (I saved some/most of the individual mecha images for easier comparison some time ago). For space operations I suspect the engine would use something more like a "cooling jacket" from NERVA than trying to use the material in an air-cooled mode, both are conceptually the same at some level but one only really works if you have the raw material to play with.

Nor does it explain why in the vacuum of space we see the Alpha fighters operate just fine (as if in earth's atmosphere, like the VF-1). So once the Alpha's switch over from air-breathing mode to internal reaction mass, it should be just like flying in vacuum as far as the propulsion system is concerned (airframe will still encounter drag on some level even at 100miles up, even the ISS does at its 200+ mile altitude).

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually they are trying to have it both ways. The Website can be updated (one round of this basic topic resulted in the VF-1 entry being updated IINM after it came to Tommy's attention, but just regurgitated OSM position). It never was. Plus the supporting material they putt out for TSC (like AotSC or 2E RPG) certainly would also have been a good time to put out an update like that.

To be entirely fair, the update to the VF-1 entry that resulted from our discussion back then was not based solely on the OSM's say-so... the capability was rather blatantly demonstrated via the end of episode 2 and start of episode 3, what with Roy flying his VF-1 from the surface to his orbital rendezvous with the SDF-1 without the aid of a booster. (The same scene is also the genesis of Lisa being the "old lady".)

When vague terminology like "short range" appears, yes I can agree with you there, but HG maintains the Alpha is non-tranatmospheric and can not achieve sub-orbital altitude on its own, which is far from being vague as both have clear meanings. From a propulsion standpoint measured in Delta-V terms, the flight in question undertaken by two Alphas (plus the fleet action later) is in direct opposition to that viewpoint, along with the basic operations shown in the animation for the 85 ep.

The available official material post-RTSC does nothing but reiterate the Alpha's previously-stated shortcomings... so the round trip likely is the result of a failure of research or dramatic license.

If we go with OSM numbers (or the uRRG's) that HG seems to want to use (instead of doing a proper self-generated continuity on their own) then the Alpha should have no trouble on internal reaction mass in achieving sub-orbital flight (exhausted yes, but done). So at minimum the animation runs counter to their claim. TSC just put a hole in the idea big enough to fly an Alpha through.

I don't have much use for the uRRG's wild guesses, but the OSM's numbers give the Legioss armo-fighter roughly comparable flight performance to a 4th Generation jet fighter. The animation doesn't run counter to the claim that the Legioss needed the TLEAD for anything close to an orbital ascent.

Actually HG does. They do essentially cherry pick from the various narratives they tossed out in 2000-ish with the reboot/re-ogranization that was not 85ep in continuing the story. In using the OSM they have to cherry pick since some information has to be changed to match the script.

Cherry-picking is pretty much the fundamental practice in the Robotech creative process... they keep the bits they like, and replace or alter the ones they don't (or the ones that wouldn't meet broadcast standards).

I don't think there was a loss in turbine size though (or at least a significant one), at least going off the RT.com Size comparison chart (I saved some/most of the individual mecha images for easier comparison some time ago).

Working from the official cutaways produced by the artists at Studio Nue and Artmic, it looks like there was a fairly significant loss when it comes to the size of the engines. A big part of it is the weird orientation the Legioss's engines have in the airframe.

Nor does it explain why in the vacuum of space we see the Alpha fighters operate just fine (as if in earth's atmosphere, like the VF-1). So once the Alpha's switch over from air-breathing mode to internal reaction mass, it should be just like flying in vacuum as far as the propulsion system is concerned (airframe will still encounter drag on some level even at 100miles up, even the ISS does at its 200+ mile altitude).

Actually, it wouldn't affect space flight if the Alpha's engines work anything like the VF-1's... space flight there is achieved via MHD plasma ion thrusters near the tail end of the turbine, which operate on plasma bled from the power generation process. The Alpha would simply be powering said engine from its protoculture cells instead of off a fusion (or GIC thermonuclear reaction) power plant.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Actually HG does. They do essentially cherry pick from the various narratives they tossed out in 2000-ish with the reboot/re-ogranization that was not 85ep in continuing the story. In using the OSM they have to cherry pick since some information has to be changed to match the script.

Hg as the owner is allowed to, the issue is when "fans" decide they will cherry pick only the most negative details from one OSM and then cherry pick the best details from another OSM to create a False narrative that isn't present in Robotech. Anyone who takes the show as a whole sees the defined technological progression. instead of spinning a "Flying-Coffin" narrative for the mecha that isn't from their preferred series.
it's simple to me from the 85 episodes alone: VF1<Ajax<Alpha... otherwise they wouldn't have abandoned the previous designs.

[eliakon]

Yeah....except that we already have pretty good evidence in the show that what ever they are using as drives it doesn't use physics as we understand it....

Eh... can't say I agree. With the sole exceptions of the Robotech Masters' mothership and the gravity control systems used by ships for hovering, everything we see is pretty thoroughly explainable by "physics as we understand it". Thrust-based propulsion is kinda old news, from a physics standpoint... the ships have great, big, highly visible engine nozzles, the fighters and other mecha exhibit nice, highly visible plumes of exhaust from engines. Rocket propulsion goes back to what, the 13th century? The physics of motion in a vacuum were sorted out in the 17th century. Even fusion engines being used for space flight isn't new or novel... the physics and conceptual implementation have been sorted out for decades. The theory behind ion engine technology was proposed over a century ago.

Since they have stuff like top speeds, and constant thrust to go certain speeds.....so yah, I am going to just call the applied phelembotium what it is.

That's not attributed to protoculture in any way and it's not significant to the plot, so it's not applied phlebotinum... it's a cinematic trope called space friction that's done to make space fight choreography more exciting.

The problem is that when we have some of the rules of physics ignored (like top speed in space) it doesn't work to then turn around and claim that there has to be an unmentioned propellant because physics demands it.....since we already know that physics is not important to what ever is used to make them fly.
Which means that if people want to claim that there is a specific propellant use, and propellant fuel.....then they need to have an actual citation for it rather than try to claim that its just common sense. Because its not common sense in the context of the setting.

[Sgt Anjay]

it's simple to me from the 85 episodes alone: VF1<Ajax<Alpha... otherwise they wouldn't have abandoned the previous designs.

The Alpha predates the Ajax, and the two weren't used in the same service, so there's no direct measure of comparison to say Ajax<Alpha

[ShadowLogan]

The Alpha predates the Ajax, and the two weren't used in the same service, so there's no direct measure of comparison to say Ajax<Alpha

The Alpha only pre-dates the Ajax due to post-series generated background material, by the animation alone (85ep) the Ajax pre-dates the Alpha due to when it appears in the story. The idea that the Alpha pre-dates the Ajax is a result of Sentinels (and desire to retain it in some capacity after house cleaning in 2000-ish) not the original show which is what Col. Wolfe was lauding to.

You are right though there is no direct measure to compare various VFs across the sagas from the animation itself. You can certainly compare intra-saga mecha (Logan vs Ajax, or Alpha vs Beta), but the inter-saga challenge is harder since by the animation they don't engage the same targets, and plot could be seen as keeping them from having to perform some of the same actions (like getting into orbit, carrying anti-ship missiles, etc).

To be entirely fair, the update to the VF-1 entry that resulted from our discussion back then was not based solely on the OSM's say-so... the capability was rather blatantly demonstrated via the end of episode 2 and start of episode 3, what with Roy flying his VF-1 from the surface to his orbital rendezvous with the SDF-1 without the aid of a booster.

I do not dispute that the VF-1 has limited SSTO capabilities. But the animation and secondary material (FTS) use of the booster modules illustrates that yes the VF-1 can get into orbit, but there are limits to what type of orbits it can be shown to achieve on its own. Examples of it using the booster system really point to a limited Delta-V capacity of the VF-1.

I don't have much use for the uRRG's wild guesses, but the OSM's numbers give the Legioss armo-fighter roughly comparable flight performance to a 4th Generation jet fighter. The animation doesn't run counter to the claim that the Legioss needed the TLEAD for anything close to an orbital ascent.

I don't particularly care for the uRRG and the OSM myself, but a lot of people do use them (even TPTB).

The animation does not run counter to the claim the Alpha needs the Beta to return to space from Earth, but at the same time it does not support the notion either (Scott's joined flight baring an identified destination in Ep85 could be seen as out of the Alpha's reach). Based on the animation though the Alpha should at minimum have sub-orbital capacity since we know it can operate in space (fly up to 30km in air breathing mode and then fire up the vacuum propulsion system to climb higher and faster) from a technical standpoint (it can do it) but from an operations standpoint there may not be an value in it (having exhausted its propellant supply).

Actually, it wouldn't affect space flight if the Alpha's engines work anything like the VF-1's... space flight there is achieved via MHD plasma ion thrusters near the tail end of the turbine, which operate on plasma bled from the power generation process. The Alpha would simply be powering said engine from its protoculture cells instead of off a fusion (or GIC thermonuclear reaction) power plant.

The MHD thruster would be at odds with the "reactor based design" stated in the dialogue (ep5) IMHO, which would favor direct exhaust of the waste material or direct heating of a working fluid to expel rather than using its energy to heat a working fluid to expel.

The problem is that when we have some of the rules of physics ignored (like top speed in space) it doesn't work to then turn around and claim that there has to be an unmentioned propellant because physics demands it.....since we already know that physics is not important to what ever is used to make them fly.
Which means that if people want to claim that there is a specific propellant use, and propellant fuel.....then they need to have an actual citation for it rather than try to claim that its just common sense. Because its not common sense in the context of the setting.

The Rules of Physics are not being ignored at the animation level, they are being ignored/twisted at the RPG Game Mechanic Adaptation level. Neither Seto, nor I or anyone else here AFAIK, has tried to say what the propellant is in this thread (since what it actually is doesn't matter, only how much of "it" is present), only that it is present and can not entirely be PC.

Citation: the RPG already mentions things about tanks in a propulsion context, and since the PC is stored in those handy canisters it can't be providing the material going into those tanks when you do the math based on RPG information and what is depicted in the show (visual/audio).

(And technically Delta-V amounts to the "top speed" in space a vehicle can achieve by its propulsion system alone using all of its full load of propellant).