Master Psionic Cyber-Kinght

[rem1093]

The Anti-Monster requires a magical ritual to transform the person into a supernatural being.....this is a wee bit different than a suit of cyber-armor bonding to a mortal....
But yes you could, as a house rule, say that the CKs have all sorts of stuff that no one knows about and add anything you want.
But the fact that there isn't any information on it what so ever is not proof of secret process exists.
And the exact statement is "When a Cyber-Knight has completed his years of .........The warrior is also give special "Cyber-Armor" that is fused to his body."
then "Level Four: Living Armor: Unknown to even most friend and allies of the Knights, at 4th level the armor becomes a living part of the Cyber-Knight and can repair itself...."
There is nothing in that that suggests the armor is a magic item, that its properties are magical. This is very important to note because the armor is NOT penalized by additional implants (like magic items are) and even cyberknights who are partial borgs can have living armor (but can not use magic items) thus the armor can not be, in any way shape or form, a magic item.
Since it can not be a magic item, and there is no explicit statement that I can find that the armor is made by TWs, AND the ability to use it as a living item is a class feature of the Cyber-Knight......I must infer that the bonding and living armor is a feature of the CK training and not the armor itself.
Which is why I do not think that there are any other implants or devices that also become living....if there were then those would have been mentioned.

I'm sorry, your right, its not the Armor itself that has the ability, (I didn't have my CK book of the last two days, had to reread that page were it says that a TW created the process of merging the armor to the body).

But the process itself, that merges the armor to the body, why can't it be used to merge other cybernetics? What I getting at is, can the cyberarm that the knight originally got with the OCC, change the same way the armor does.

[Tor]

The Anti-Monster requires a magical ritual to transform the person into a supernatural being.....this is a wee bit different than a suit of cyber-armor bonding to a mortal....

The TW-bonding process may well involve magical rituals too, the key seems to be the lack of becoming supernatural, which is reasonable since we're talking the diff between 1 TW cybernetic implant and full conversion TW bionics.

There is nothing in that that suggests the armor is a magic item, that its properties are magical.

Sot4(Cyber-Knights)pg21 "a Techno-Wizard introduced the process of fusing bits of Mega-Damage armor to the human body" suggests to me that this is related to techno-wizardry. When we consider how TWs don't get bonuses to electrical/mechanical (and need to spend 2 per to get) and how at best they're paramedics, magic is about the only explanation I can see for how a Techno-Wizard could do this. If someone were going to break some mega-tech ground by non-magical means it'd more likely be a Cyber-Doc.

This is very important to note because the armor is NOT penalized by additional implants (like magic items are) and even cyberknights who are partial borgs can have living armor (but can not use magic items) thus the armor can not be, in any way shape or form, a magic item.

Not everything magical is necessarily hampered by other implants.

Since it can not be a magic item, and there is no explicit statement that I can find that the armor is made by TWs, AND the ability to use it as a living item is a class feature of the Cyber-Knight......I must infer that the bonding and living armor is a feature of the CK training and not the armor itself.

"made possible only through years of Cyber-Knight training" follows in parenthesis after "human body" in the page 21 quote.

That a TW invented this process says to me that they have to be involved somehow, even though others might do the initial grunt work of building a cyber-armor baseline to amplify and that the cyber-knight themself is the final step.

On a fun note: I might also use this as grounds to say that only humans can have the living armor and that others just get standard cyber-armor

Does anyone know any non-human NPCs who have the advanced MDC indicating that the armor has come alive? If so, we can assume that the process has been expanded to include their species. All other non-explicit ones would be up to the GM.

[rem1093]

The Anti-Monster requires a magical ritual to transform the person into a supernatural being.....this is a wee bit different than a suit of cyber-armor bonding to a mortal....

The TW-bonding process may well involve magical rituals too, the key seems to be the lack of becoming supernatural, which is reasonable since we're talking the diff between 1 TW cybernetic implant and full conversion TW bionics.

There is nothing in that that suggests the armor is a magic item, that its properties are magical.

Sot4(Cyber-Knights)pg21 "a Techno-Wizard introduced the process of fusing bits of Mega-Damage armor to the human body" suggests to me that this is related to techno-wizardry. When we consider how TWs don't get bonuses to electrical/mechanical (and need to spend 2 per to get) and how at best they're paramedics, magic is about the only explanation I can see for how a Techno-Wizard could do this. If someone were going to break some mega-tech ground by non-magical means it'd more likely be a Cyber-Doc.

This is very important to note because the armor is NOT penalized by additional implants (like magic items are) and even cyberknights who are partial borgs can have living armor (but can not use magic items) thus the armor can not be, in any way shape or form, a magic item.

Not everything magical is necessarily hampered by other implants.

Since it can not be a magic item, and there is no explicit statement that I can find that the armor is made by TWs, AND the ability to use it as a living item is a class feature of the Cyber-Knight......I must infer that the bonding and living armor is a feature of the CK training and not the armor itself.

"made possible only through years of Cyber-Knight training" follows in parenthesis after "human body" in the page 21 quote.

That a TW invented this process says to me that they have to be involved somehow, even though others might do the initial grunt work of building a cyber-armor baseline to amplify and that the cyber-knight themself is the final step.

On a fun note: I might also use this as grounds to say that only humans can have the living armor and that others just get standard cyber-armor

Does anyone know any non-human NPCs who have the advanced MDC indicating that the armor has come alive? If so, we can assume that the process has been expanded to include their species. All other non-explicit ones would be up to the GM.

There are Grackle Tooth CK, Na it doesn't say they are not like other the other knights, so i would let any race that can get cybernetics have the armor and any other implants, (if you allow it). The question I have is, if they can get other implants, how many, And when can they get them? Would you allow a non-psychic knight to go full borg with all the abilities that the armor has?

[Alrik Vas]

Don't think full borg is possible since you change OCC when you do the conversion.

Think you lose psionics when you convert, anyway. Partial conversion might work, though.

[Tor]

There are Grackle Tooth CK, Na it doesn't say they are not like other the other knights, so i would let any race that can get cybernetics have the armor and any other implants, (if you allow it). The question I have is, if they can get other implants, how many, And when can they get them? Would you allow a non-psychic knight to go full borg with all the abilities that the armor has?

The issue isn't so much whether we know of Cyber-Knights of other races, but whether they explicitly have living armor, which we would know if their armor MDC is listed as being higher than usual, since living armor increases in MDC.

Otherwise I might just assume they have standard cyber-armor, like what Cyber-Knights had until SoT4.

Unless of course it was a race that rejected bionic implants, in which case they could be an armor-less Cyber-Knight like that vampirish one in Arzno.

[eliakon]

There are Grackle Tooth CK, Na it doesn't say they are not like other the other knights, so i would let any race that can get cybernetics have the armor and any other implants, (if you allow it). The question I have is, if they can get other implants, how many, And when can they get them? Would you allow a non-psychic knight to go full borg with all the abilities that the armor has?

The issue isn't so much whether we know of Cyber-Knights of other races, but whether they explicitly have living armor, which we would know if their armor MDC is listed as being higher than usual, since living armor increases in MDC.

Otherwise I might just assume they have standard cyber-armor, like what Cyber-Knights had until SoT4.

Unless of course it was a race that rejected bionic implants, in which case they could be an armor-less Cyber-Knight like that vampirish one in Arzno.

If the knight exists then unless there is an explicit statement that they do NOT have a class feature, they should be assumed to have all of their classes class features.
Not having a basic feature of your class is an exception, exceptions by their nature are something that needs to be called out specifically, and not simply assumed to exist. That is why they are exceptions not rules.

[Tor]

Except that we're explicitly told that that the techno-wizard perfect the process for "humans", not any other races.

It's plausible that since then they developed it for other races, but that's a GM option.

[eliakon]

Except that we're explicitly told that that the techno-wizard perfect the process for "humans", not any other races.

It's plausible that since then they developed it for other races, but that's a GM option.

Which suggests that the fluff in the book has been superseded by the actual class description.
The O.C.C. itself has the rules for the O.C.C. and in those rules it simply says that you get the armor. There is nothing in the O.C.C. that says that it is limited to only humans. This would be a rather important feature to note in an O.C.C. that is explicitly available to non-humans. Since the O.C.C. says that you get the living armor, you get the living armor. Its pretty simple.

[Tor]

We do know that some races have problems getting cybernetic implants, some others might be magic resistant, any races along those lines could plausibly have problems.

The living armor isn't mandatory since there's that Arzno NPC without it. It's just left up to the GM which races besides humans can get it. Off-hand I'd use similar guidelines in regard to who can get juicer conversions.

[eliakon]

We do know that some races have problems getting cybernetic implants, some others might be magic resistant, any races along those lines could plausibly have problems.

The living armor isn't mandatory since there's that Arzno NPC without it. It's just left up to the GM which races besides humans can get it. Off-hand I'd use similar guidelines in regard to who can get juicer conversions.

Pointing to a human who doesn't have for philosophical reasons doesn't really support your house rule that other races don't actually get their O.C.C.......
But yes, if a race can not get cybernetics then they can't get the cyber-armor....that's not in question.
But if they can get the cyber-armor then at level 4 it turns living. For all Cyber-Knights because that's what the O.C.C. description says. It doesn't say "all humans get living armor and everyone else gets what ever the GM feels like letting them have."

[Tor]

What we do know, via SoT4, is that TWs first got it working for humans. That it specifies a single species instead of 'all living beings' or whatever is pretty suspicious to me. Makes it seem like a 'one step at a time' where you have to make adjustments for each new race.

I guess it could be humans > suddenly everyone else, but it's more realistic to imagine intermediate steps.

Bionics and cybernetics probably are already like this. A cyber-doc who's only ever put implants in humans is probably going to have to make some adjustments when putting them into a Brodkil for the first time. The Techno-Wizard probably had this kind of issue. Perhaps they overcame it easily.

[eliakon]

What we do know, via SoT4, is that TWs first got it working for humans. That it specifies a single species instead of 'all living beings' or whatever is pretty suspicious to me. Makes it seem like a 'one step at a time' where you have to make adjustments for each new race.

I guess it could be humans > suddenly everyone else, but it's more realistic to imagine intermediate steps.

Bionics and cybernetics probably are already like this. A cyber-doc who's only ever put implants in humans is probably going to have to make some adjustments when putting them into a Brodkil for the first time. The Techno-Wizard probably had this kind of issue. Perhaps they overcame it easily.

Okay so when they were inventing the CK class they had a TW make it work on humans. Great, that's a nice bit of history....
But this is now. It works on everyone. Maybe if your running a historical game set back at the founding of the Knights then it would matter as it might have only certain races get living armor as they work out the kinks....or not. It might have been as simple as "oh we figured out how this works (on humans)....so that's how you bond it....fascinating" And now it works on everyone.
There is nothing, at all, in the book to say one way or the other, thus it would be a pure house rule to claim that the O.C.C. is wrong and needs to be amended. That is sort of the definition of House Rule....the claim that ones personal interpretation when in conflict with the Rules As Written should over write the rules and not the other way. And that's cool, house rules make the game work better for each personal gaming group....
But the RAW is pretty clear, all Cyber-Knights who get implanted with cyber-armor will, at level four get living armor.

[Tor]

Assuming you need to be a race capable of cybernetics to get the normal cyber-armor before it turns alive, a better question might be if there are some races contra-indicated for it. I can't think of any off-hand but there probably is one, some kind of anti-magic guys or some kind of anti-symbiote guys.

Another interesting thing to explore would be what happened if your lost your cyber-armor. You can plausibly do this and remain alive via spells like that one in FoM that changes MD to SDC for a bit after your MDC armor is destroyed, since you can wear MDC armor overtop of cyber-armor.

Am thinking of that murder-wraith who tore out his bro's cyber-armor, you would stand some chance of surviving that if you were MDC and had some kind of bio-regen. Or a cyber-snatcher could knock you out and have a cyber-doc remove it from you while you'er passed out.

If it's alive it will turn to scrap but maybe not if you're only levels 1-3.

If you got your armor at level 1, lost it at level 2, got a new set at level 3, then reached level 4, makes me wonder if it'd come alive or if you'd have to wait 2 more levels.