Crushing creativity.

[say652]

So its a gms job to make anything a player wants suck?
Or limit the occ to a useless selection of wimps?

Seems to me, I am not good at crushing creativity to stroke my own ego.

I suck.

Warning: Trolling/Flamebaiting.

[Bill]

A little melodramatic. Points for self-depreciation though.

Say, we shouldn't be in the same group. I find what you love about games to be obnoxious. Building characters to the maximum potential allowable (sometimes by bending or even breaking rules) is utterly pointless and contributes nothing to my actual game-play experience.

However, neither of us is going about things wrong. I hope that the group you regularly play with enjoys how you do things immensely too. There is no right way to play these games and the source of the friction that you're encountering here is from your aggressiveness in presenting your point of view as correct or better than anyone else's. Even that's not wrong. We all do it on the internet. Just try not to take it so personally that you make melodramatic posts over it. Sometimes it helps to walk away for a day and remind yourself that it's just a stupid game. I do that pretty frequently.

[say652]

We roleplay, actual combat is rare. Because if you do things right nobody knows you were there.

[Bill]

Then what does it matter if the GM is restricting things?

[say652]

I feel a persons definition of the bestest character is their own to create.
Not my place to say, wow great character but in my game.....
For lack of a better term.

[Bill]

And that's your prerogative, for your games. In my games, I am likely to tell you up front that the game will be about a specific concept (where, roughly who the character is [bodyguards for a pharaoh, demon hunters, chi-town dogpack, etc.]) and expect that you'll make a character that fits it. Nobody will make you play my game, if you're not up for it that's okay.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So its a gms job to make anything a player wants suck?
Or limit the occ to a useless selection of wimps?

Seems to me, I am not good at crushing creativity to stroke my own ego.

I suck.

That everyone plays by the same rules, so everyone can have fun.

[eliakon]

So its a gms job to make anything a player wants suck?
Or limit the occ to a useless selection of wimps?

Seems to me, I am not good at crushing creativity to stroke my own ego.

I suck.

No the GMs job is to make the world for the players to play in. Then the GM helps the group make a group of characters that will be fun and interesting and will work in that world. The first part requires that the GM know what their group will find fun and enjoyable to play. The second part requires all the players and the GM to work together to make a group of characters that are both what the group wants to play, and are appropriate for the situation. And sometimes the GM needs to change the game. If the GM has an intricate story of mystery intrigue and social drama....and everyone has their heart set on playing semi-feral combat experts then I would say that the GM should shelve that game for later and pull out something that fits the brawlers the party wants to play.
But if the GM has that game, and five of the players have made investigators from the London gentry so they can investigate the mystery and be involved in the whirl of the social scene and one guy wants to make a super tough combat monster, then I would say it is the player that needs to compromise. They don't have to give up completely though. Maybe they can play a west end boxer who is involved in the exhibition matches that the gentry watches, with the parties common noble patron sponsoring him....but a Ninja assassin with nothing but weapon and physical skills and no cover is going to be a bit harder to fit in....

[Glistam]

So its a gms job to make anything a player wants suck?
Or limit the occ to a useless selection of wimps?

Seems to me, I am not good at crushing creativity to stroke my own ego.

I suck.

If the G.M. has guidelines for character creation, they aren't there to stroke his or her ego. They are there to help ensure that everyone, including the G.M., can have a good time. A person who was really creative could limit their characters so that they fit within those guidelines and still have fun in the role playing. And who knows? They might even find out they accidentally enjoy the character, restrictions and all, in the process.

It does suck when you can't see eye-to-eye with your G.M. in this regard. I have a player in my game who could tell a similar story about me, but what he doesn't understand is how much it bothers me when I have to tell him "No" to a character concept in my Heroes Unlimited campaign. I want him to have fun and enjoy the game, but not at the expense of the other players, or my own enjoyment.

[say652]

I don't have this problem irl, and have had many fun games.
I just noticed the same herd attacks posts and either gets people banned our the merge forming Nerftron and bash any original concept to dust.

[The Dark Elf]

Mentioned ago there needs to be a few limits (or precautions) for any role playing game to work its best.
Like others I discuss the general nature of the campaign I wish to run (dungeon crawl, wandering, city based, galaxy wide etc...) then together we work out a party that won't leave anyone out of the spotlight for too long.
Then I view the classes and develop the story arcs around them (also making them personal).

So an example of a limitation in my current adventure I'm preparing is that the first half relies on travelling by ground, but one of huge players has PA that's flies. So ive explained my concerns and he's countered it with "not intending to leave the rest of the group or his mount"
Makes sense and he will help keep that part of the adventure on track for me(nope, for all of us enjoying the game).

Someone mentioned earlier that the GM needs to enjoy their role too.

If I have to adjust certain power creeps (one person wants to play a dragon whilst the others all wanna be rogue scholars) then I simply make the next adventure campaign a South American wander where all the PCs are dragons, Golding or whatever they like and we smash the place up! Lol.
Time and a place for everything.

[say652]

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics.
Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

[Zer0 Kay]

If the majority of players want to do a CS army campaign then we make characters from the CS. However, I've never ran a CS game and usually run a sandbox style game. I've got an alien technopath, an ex-CS scientist (who has received some interesting things from the Randomeer item table), a dragon who started out a hatchling and through events was transported to the PF world for centuries and returned much... much older, a BTS psychic using a new on the fly system I made (which will probably be changed to magic), an elite PA pilot and a mystic.

[Zer0 Kay]

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics.
Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

So temporal mages are blasters? What about sage classes, ya know low combat high skills, are they a blaster or brawler? I think if characters are only lopped into those two categories, except for psychics, then the game may be focused too much on combat.

[say652]

Effectively yes mages are blaster types.
A Temporal warrior is a brawler.

[say652]

A skills heavy character is imo a poorman's munchkin.

[say652]

Imma disarm a bomb, hijack a Samas, and do field surgery, followed by designing an aquaduct to water the field.

[Glistam]

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics.
Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

So temporal mages are blasters? What about sage classes, ya know low combat high skills, are they a blaster or brawler? I think if characters are only lopped into those two categories, except for psychics, then the game may be focused too much on combat.

I tried to turn my Temporal Mage into a brawler once. It was the only time in the game that the brawler I consistently rescued from death almost every combat actually rescued me instead.

[say652]

A Temporal Warrior is definitely a BAMF other than having less sdc and no AutoDodge the Temporal Mage is nearly as tough.

[Zer0 Kay]

A Temporal Warrior is definitely a BAMF other than having less sdc and no AutoDodge the Temporal Mage is nearly as tough.

Mage not warrior. One who uses the magic not the Traider race and not one trained how to use it in combat. The issue I'm trying to raise being messing with time.

[say652]

Temporal falls into the Blaster category.

[Bill]

I just noticed the same herd attacks posts and either gets people banned our the merge forming Nerftron and bash any original concept to dust.

You have a problem with this community and the standards that are commonly held by it. I have to say, you're not going to get very far with this community by attacking it. Also, you don't offer original concepts. At best, you combine rules that were never intended to be combined to create an outcome that excites you personally. We respond by pointing out where you've violated the intent and letter of the rules, which seems to offend you.

If you were producing original races and classes, you'd probably get much more positive feedback. No one could question your interpretation of the rules at that point and we'd focus on whether it was unnecessarily duplicating an existing class or race or how much more powerful the option you're presenting is than similar classes instead. Consider it as a possible alternative to the senseless arguments you're presently suffering under.

[Bill]

Effectively yes mages are blaster types.

A tragic misuse of a mage. They're not at all suited to the role of a ranged attacker compared to technological options. Mages are portable tool-kits for problem-solving. The temporal classes in particular are much more useful for bypassing problems than fighting them.

[say652]

Gunslinger etc fall into the Blaster category.

[say652]

I just noticed the same herd attacks posts and either gets people banned our the merge forming Nerftron and bash any original concept to dust.

You have a problem with this community and the standards that are commonly held by it. I have to say, you're not going to get very far with this community by attacking it. Also, you don't offer original concepts. At best, you combine rules that were never intended to be combined to create an outcome that excites you personally. We respond by pointing out where you've violated the intent and letter of the rules, which seems to offend you.

If you were producing original races and classes, you'd probably get much more positive feedback. No one could question your interpretation of the rules at that point and we'd focus on whether it was unnecessarily duplicating an existing class or race or how much more powerful the option you're presenting is than similar classes instead. Consider it as a possible alternative to the senseless arguments you're presently suffering under.

Handy foe setting seems to have alleviated my headache.
Imagine that.

[Bill]

Ignoring a problem won't make it go away. Particularly when it's the community standards that you're not happy with. How many of us will you ignore before the forum dries up complete for you?

[say652]

So far three.
Seems to be working.

[eliakon]

Effectively yes mages are blaster types.

A tragic misuse of a mage. They're not at all suited to the role of a ranged attacker compared to technological options. Mages are portable tool-kits for problem-solving. The temporal classes in particular are much more useful for bypassing problems than fighting them.

I will agree with this whole heartedly.
Most mages simply don't have the PPE to be blasters and while there are a lot of direct damage (DD) spells in the game, the majority of them are somewhat on the lower power end of the spectrum.
I have found that most mages do best if they bring a weapon or two for their combat and use their spells to do stuff you cant just replicate with a gun, a suit of body armor, and a few hundred credits worth of basic gear.
Stealth, Healing, Divination, Charm, Mind Control, Teleportation, Specialized Attacks (like drains, stuns, armor pennitrating) Buffs, Debuffs, Summonings......stuff you cant replicate easily with other materials.

[eliakon]

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics.
Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

So temporal mages are blasters? What about sage classes, ya know low combat high skills, are they a blaster or brawler? I think if characters are only lopped into those two categories, except for psychics, then the game may be focused too much on combat.

And even there its pretty narrowly defining what roles a player can have...
Esper, Brawler, Blaster....
Just sticking with the major tropes here that still leaves out
The Face, Skulkers, Bricks, Wizards (can do a bit of anything), Experts (all those skills), Ninja's, Snipers.....

But if the game is one where the only solution is massive comic book style slug matches then yah, you only need blasters and brawlers and everyone should optimize for maximum damage and durability.
But if the game is one of social intrigues and mysteries then it really wont matter how many DC you have or how many dice your fireball does...

Ask some of the players in my Tellas game where some of the most important rolls of the game for several players.....were the Dancing and Etiquette rolls at a couple of balls. And where cutting insults and witty banter were able to alter the face of the war in ways that no mere army or vanity of demi-gods could....

[Damian Magecraft]

Restrictions breed creativity

[say652]

To a point. I feel restrictions create munchkins.

[Damian Magecraft]

To a point. I feel restrictions create munchkins.

no that would be lack of restrictions creates munchkins

[say652]

No.
Sure you can play a hatchling, is different than munch together a list of add ons to get the same powers.
Real talk.

[Zer0 Kay]

To a point. I feel restrictions create munchkins.

Creativity and munchkins are two sides of the same coin. that coin being how your idea is received by the GM and players.

[Zer0 Kay]

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics.
Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

So temporal mages are blasters? What about sage classes, ya know low combat high skills, are they a blaster or brawler? I think if characters are only lopped into those two categories, except for psychics, then the game may be focused too much on combat.

And even there its pretty narrowly defining what roles a player can have...
Esper, Brawler, Blaster....
Just sticking with the major tropes here that still leaves out
The Face, Skulkers, Bricks, Wizards (can do a bit of anything), Experts (all those skills), Ninja's, Snipers.....

But if the game is one where the only solution is massive comic book style slug matches then yah, you only need blasters and brawlers and everyone should optimize for maximum damage and durability.
But if the game is one of social intrigues and mysteries then it really wont matter how many DC you have or how many dice your fireball does...

Ask some of the players in my Tellas game where some of the most important rolls of the game for several players.....were the Dancing and Etiquette rolls at a couple of balls. And where cutting insults and witty banter were able to alter the face of the war in ways that no mere army or vanity of demi-gods could....

I take it those were Big Balls?

[Zer0 Kay]

So far three.
Seems to be working.

Wow I didn't think you were like that.

[Zer0 Kay]

To a point. I feel restrictions create munchkins.

I agree with both of you. A munch would be created if they couldn't handle the restrictions and essentially had a tantrum. Creativity is if a person does the same thing as the munch but not with the intent of "oh yeah, I'll show you". So intent would actually be the coin previously mentioned.

[say652]

As a gm the most difficult player characters are psychics.
Any thing else is either a brawler or a blaster. Piece of cake.

So temporal mages are blasters? What about sage classes, ya know low combat high skills, are they a blaster or brawler? I think if characters are only lopped into those two categories, except for psychics, then the game may be focused too much on combat.

And even there its pretty narrowly defining what roles a player can have...
Esper, Brawler, Blaster....
Just sticking with the major tropes here that still leaves out
The Face, Skulkers, Bricks, Wizards (can do a bit of anything), Experts (all those skills), Ninja's, Snipers.....

But if the game is one where the only solution is massive comic book style slug matches then yah, you only need blasters and brawlers and everyone should optimize for maximum damage and durability.
But if the game is one of social intrigues and mysteries then it really wont matter how many DC you have or how many dice your fireball does...

Ask some of the players in my Tellas game where some of the most important rolls of the game for several players.....were the Dancing and Etiquette rolls at a couple of balls. And where cutting insults and witty banter were able to alter the face of the war in ways that no mere army or vanity of demi-gods could....

I take it those were Big Balls?

The biggest balls of them all.
Ooga chaka ooga chaka...

[say652]

To a point. I feel restrictions create munchkins.

I agree with both of you. A munch would be created if they couldn't handle the restrictions and essentially had a tantrum. Creativity is if a person does the same thing as the munch but not with the intent of "oh yeah, I'll show you". So intent would actually be the coin previously mentioned.

For a long time Borg was my go to munchkin occ.

[eliakon]

To a point. I feel restrictions create munchkins.

I agree with both of you. A munch would be created if they couldn't handle the restrictions and essentially had a tantrum. Creativity is if a person does the same thing as the munch but not with the intent of "oh yeah, I'll show you". So intent would actually be the coin previously mentioned.

The same thing can be a munchkin or cool depending on intent....
The hypothetical Zentradi Demon Queller I mentioned is a good example
Creative is "Oh this would make a cool giant monster wrestling guy, go go Godzilla!"
Munchkin is "Heh and then using 1st edition rules I can multiply his stats by ten and then......"