Ajax/Alpha timeline

[Sgt Anjay]

Split off from another thread to focus on this timeline issue here.

it's simple to me from the 85 episodes alone: VF1<Ajax<Alpha... otherwise they wouldn't have abandoned the previous designs

The Alpha predates the Ajax, and the two weren't used in the same service, so there's no direct measure of comparison to say Ajax<Alpha

The Alpha only pre-dates the Ajax due to post-series generated background material, by the animation alone (85ep) the Ajax pre-dates the Alpha due to when it appears in the story. The idea that the Alpha pre-dates the Ajax is a result of Sentinels (and desire to retain it in some capacity after house cleaning in 2000-ish) not the original show which is what Col. Wolfe was lauding to.

I have several severe issues with that line of reasoning.

1) The Alpha predating the Ajax is the history of the Alpha per the creators of Robotech themselves. Any version of the Alpha's history which puts its introduction after the introduction of the Ajax is in contradiction of them, and if given a choice between the creators of the 85 episodes themselves or some internet fan, well...

2)Wolfe. The character, not the poster on these boards. He knows the Alpha. He was a good Alpha pilot. He was also sent to Earth to fight the Masters. Ergo, the Alpha predates his trip to Earth, and is confirmed to be fielded by the UEEF at least at the same time as the Ajax was by the UEDF on Earth. That makes them contemporaries; the Alpha is not an Ajax successor.

3)We know the Beta is new at the time of 21st Mars Division's attack: they let us know in the dialog. Other new tech later shows up: Shadow Fighters and Drones, Synchro cannon. The Alpha? The Cyclone? Everyone already knows what they are on Earth. They are not recent at all.

4)And of course, if you subscribe to Early Return, which is supported by the 85 episodes, as opposed to Late Return, well, then the Alpha is even more clearly at least a contemporary of the Ajax.

5) Wolfe, the poster not the character (heh), states as part of his reasoning that the Alpha should be a superior craft to the Ajax because "otherwise they wouldn't have abandoned the previous designs". But the Ajax wasn't abandoned; it didn't lose its role because it was supplanted. Nobody stopped making Ajaxes in order to make its replacement; it never got a replacement. The Ajax stopped being made because it was used on Earth and Earth was defeated. The service which used the Alpha, the UEEF, didn't use the Ajax; they didn't make Alphas as a replacement for the Ajax, there were no Ajaxes there to be replaced.

A more apt comparison of the Alpha and Ajax, rather than a simplistic successionary narrative, is that of contemporary craft in different branches of service.

[ShadowLogan]

1) The Alpha predating the Ajax is the history of the Alpha per the creators of Robotech themselves. Any version of the Alpha's history which puts its introduction after the introduction of the Ajax is in contradiction of them, and if given a choice between the creators of the 85 episodes themselves or some internet fan, well...

Not quite. It is a recton because its pre-dating the Ajax comes from work on Sentinels AFAIK. Without Sentinels or other background material post show, the Ajax likely still does predate the Alpha given the Ajax is available sooner.

2)Wolfe. The character, not the poster on these boards. He knows the Alpha. He was a good Alpha pilot. He was also sent to Earth to fight the Masters. Ergo, the Alpha predates his trip to Earth, and is confirmed to be fielded by the UEEF at least at the same time as the Ajax was by the UEDF on Earth. That makes them contemporaries; the Alpha is not an Ajax successor.

I'm not sure if Wolfe (chrctr) was an actual Veritech Alpha pilot, he certainly was a Veritech Fighter Pilot (Lunk doesn't ask Scott if he can fly an Alpha, he asks if he can fly a Veritech, IIRC Rand spilling the existence of the Alpha to Wolfe was in terms of "We have a fighter" not "We have an Alpha Fighter"), but in the flashback he is shown using a different type of fighter. Plus the animation actually does have a large number of indentifiable Ajax in Ep37. Which means the Ajax can still pre-date the Alpha given the UEEF/REF when they return aren't using actual Alphas of the NG type (Carpenter's fighters are close) but either a new type (Carpenter) or suggestive of Ajax (a Transport Squadron that returns linking up with Emerson on the Moon).

I am not going to get into if they are successor mecha. They likely are contemporaries, but one of them had to come out first and it does look like the Ajax. The Alpha can be known if it was in testing in that period.

3)We know the Beta is new at the time of 21st Mars Division's attack: they let us know in the dialog. Other new tech later shows up: Shadow Fighters and Drones, Synchro cannon. The Alpha? The Cyclone? Everyone already knows what they are on Earth. They are not recent at all.

Except the Beta really isn't "new" if we include things like Sentinels since they have the "Beta" approx. a decade before 2RW. Sentinels requires a lot of forced fixes to work IMHO.

Scott also identifies his model of Cyclone as "new" (in the show all 3 Cyclones are just "Cyclones"). If we can have 3 radically different Cyclones, then "Alpha Fighter" might not refer to just the VFA-6 series but a sequence of VFA-#s by show dialogue. Plus Scott also identifies wreckage of Hovertanks in NG#2, but nothing appears to look like a Hovertank (and VHTs are just called hovertanks too so is he using short hand or not).

4)And of course, if you subscribe to Early Return, which is supported by the 85 episodes, as opposed to Late Return, well, then the Alpha is even more clearly at least a contemporary of the Ajax.

The designs can be contemporary, I do not dispute that. But there is still the issue of "firsts" (conceive, tested, production, etc) which still supports the Ajax as being available sooner based on the animation.

5) Wolfe, the poster not the character (heh), states as part of his reasoning that the Alpha should be a superior craft to the Ajax because "otherwise they wouldn't have abandoned the previous designs". But the Ajax wasn't abandoned; it didn't lose its role because it was supplanted. Nobody stopped making Ajaxes in order to make its replacement; it never got a replacement. The Ajax stopped being made because it was used on Earth and Earth was defeated. The service which used the Alpha, the UEEF, didn't use the Ajax; they didn't make Alphas as a replacement for the Ajax, there were no Ajaxes there to be replaced.

This I do not disagree with you over in principle here.

Though I am not sure if I agree with the Ajax being unavailable to the UEEF/REF. There are a lot of ways to structure the back story to explain Ep37's use and Leonard's introduction and the deep space Transport Squadron potentially having them (since they deployed with Emerson, but we don't see anything but Ajax).

[Colonel Wolfe]

We know that the Alpha was present on earth before the Invid arrived from the animation in Denver. But we also know the Forces returning from deep space in the Master's era were armed with Ajax fighters as well. The Ajax was abandoned by the Forces in Space in favor of the Alpha.
Also, the quote by me eliminates the important part of my statement, which is you have to take the series as a whole, that shows technological progression.
The Alpha must have other advantages that makes it superior to the Ajax, either its low maintenance requirements & reliance on PC-cells that increase logistical independence.
I always felt the Late return jives more with the Show, "we are all born out in deep space..." made me think when i was younger that 20 or more years had passed since the Invid took the earth, Scott's disintrest and pure ignorance to rabbits and rain wouldn't fit with the ER's time line as he's have been born on earth a few years after Dana.

[eliakon]

And if they are two parallel programs that were launched at the same time?

[glitterboy2098]

going by the original prototype's brief appearance in the From the stars comic (issue 6, pg25), the development project started in at least 2013. the comic's "current day" bits with Rick and lisa is set in 2015, and we see a physical prototype. 2 years to get to an early prototype sounds reasonable.

having a recognizable "new generation style" VF/A-6 by 2022 seems fair enough. by the RPG it just wasn't in high production till much later. (wouldn't be the first time that a design was kept in LRIP for a long time)


to give an idea of the difference between the first prototype and the final version:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/ ... ce0842.jpg

the Ajax shows up in 2030 when the master's arrive, but then doesn't get officially deployed until 2031, going by the episodes (and matching them to HG's timeline). this suggests that the Ajax program was begun after the Alpha program had a finalized design, since otherwise you get the Ajax stuck in development for over a decade. it doesn't seem that complex.
most likely the Logan was developed alongside the Alpha, and then when the Alpha ended up optimized to the UEEF's doctrines (PC power, more focus on ground combat, etc) the UEDF/ASC started developing their own heavier veritech to use instead.
the ajax program starting in 2022ish and being at pre-production final design by 2030 maps well to the Alpha program starting around 2013 and having a final design by 2022. 9 years for an alpha and 8-9 years for Ajax.

[Tiree]

I still like the idea that the prototype Alpha that was developed before the SDF-3 launched may have been the VF/A-1(x), and over the years it went from VF/A-(1-6)(x)

[Sgt Anjay]

1) The Alpha predating the Ajax is the history of the Alpha per the creators of Robotech themselves. Any version of the Alpha's history which puts its introduction after the introduction of the Ajax is in contradiction of them, and if given a choice between the creators of the 85 episodes themselves or some internet fan, well...

Not quite.<snip>

Yes, quite. The choices are "the Alpha predates the Ajax as per the people who created the episodes", or "the Alpha doesn't predate the Ajax per some fans on the internet". Technically? They're BOTH retcons, because they're both retroactively applied events we don't see in the episodes. But one is rather more solid than the other.

2)Wolfe. The character, not the poster on these boards. He knows the Alpha. He was a good Alpha pilot. He was also sent to Earth to fight the Masters. Ergo, the Alpha predates his trip to Earth, and is confirmed to be fielded by the UEEF at least at the same time as the Ajax was by the UEDF on Earth. That makes them contemporaries; the Alpha is not an Ajax successor.

I'm not sure if Wolfe (chrctr) was an actual Veritech Alpha pilot, he certainly was a Veritech Fighter Pilot (Lunk doesn't ask Scott if he can fly an Alpha, he asks if he can fly a Veritech, IIRC Rand spilling the existence of the Alpha to Wolfe was in terms of "We have a fighter" not "We have an Alpha Fighter"), but in the flashback he is shown using a different type of fighter.

He's not shown using any fighter in the flashback, its a bunch of stills. Lunk and Rand's dialog support the position that the Alpha isn't new; it shows they assume an Alpha is what a UEEF pilot would fly, so there's no need to specify. If the UEEF was known for different veritechs recently it would've needed to be specified, or even caused a misunderstanding. We also hear Wolfe tell Scott he's going to give him "a few pointers" while in the Alpha...clearly his capacity in that specific machine is not in doubt in the episode. In a fighter he and Scott know he's never used? Unlikely.

There's no "well, let me see what I can do in this new-fangled machine", there's no "boy, this new fighter is spiffy", there's no "I hope I can get the job done in this type of veritech", there's not even "this is a nice new model of Alpha". Nope, it's "just thought I'd show you a few pointers".

Plus the animation actually does have a large number of indentifiable Ajax in Ep37. Which means the Ajax can still pre-date the Alpha given the UEEF/REF when they return aren't using actual Alphas of the NG type (Carpenter's fighters are close) but either a new type (Carpenter) or suggestive of Ajax (a Transport Squadron that returns linking up with Emerson on the Moon).

Ajaxes in ep 37 doesn't change that Ajaxes are clearly a new thing. The Transport Squadron isn't linked to the Expeditionary Forces in the episode. They're just said to be coming from hyperspace responding to the original mayday call sent out by Liberty. They could easily be a UEDF convoy sent out to a colony or some such. By the way, they don't link up with Emerson on the Moon; at the time, Emerson is on Earth. They're told to reload their ships and then meet Emerson in Earth orbit where he would take command.

3)We know the Beta is new at the time of 21st Mars Division's attack: they let us know in the dialog. Other new tech later shows up: Shadow Fighters and Drones, Synchro cannon. The Alpha? The Cyclone? Everyone already knows what they are on Earth. They are not recent at all.

Except the Beta really isn't "new" if we include things like Sentinels since they have the "Beta" approx. a decade before 2RW. Sentinels requires a lot of forced fixes to work IMHO.

Sentinels shows the Beta not working out, in order to explain the use of Alphas but the Betas being a new thing in New Generation per the dialog. The..."fix"...is part and parcel of the scene in which they appear.

Scott also identifies his model of Cyclone as "new"

Oh does he? So his model Cyclone is identified as new, the Beta is identified as new, Shadow tech and the Synchro cannon are identified as new when they show up, but we're all just supposed to "assume" that Alpha fighter is new despite it never being identified as new? There's a dissonance there.

4)And of course, if you subscribe to Early Return, which is supported by the 85 episodes, as opposed to Late Return, well, then the Alpha is even more clearly at least a contemporary of the Ajax.

The designs can be contemporary, I do not dispute that. But there is still the issue of "firsts" (conceive, tested, production, etc) which still supports the Ajax as being available sooner based on the animation.

You entirely missed the point of what I said. If you go by an Early Return timeline as supported by the 85 episodes, there is no big gap after the end of the 2nd Robotech War (a major plot hole of the Late Return scenario) for the Alpha to have been developed in. It *had* to have been a concurrent development, at the absolute latest, which means it wouldn't be a later development of technology, it would've been of the same technological era.

5) Wolfe, the poster not the character (heh), states as part of his reasoning that the Alpha should be a superior craft to the Ajax because "otherwise they wouldn't have abandoned the previous designs". But the Ajax wasn't abandoned; it didn't lose its role because it was supplanted. Nobody stopped making Ajaxes in order to make its replacement; it never got a replacement. The Ajax stopped being made because it was used on Earth and Earth was defeated. The service which used the Alpha, the UEEF, didn't use the Ajax; they didn't make Alphas as a replacement for the Ajax, there were no Ajaxes there to be replaced.

This I do not disagree with you over in principle here.

Though I am not sure if I agree with the Ajax being unavailable to the UEEF/REF. There are a lot of ways to structure the back story to explain Ep37's use and Leonard's introduction and the deep space Transport Squadron potentially having them (since they deployed with Emerson, but we don't see anything but Ajax).

And you're creating or inflating unrelated narrative problems in order to manufacture a desired narrative.

[Sgt Anjay]

We know that the Alpha was present on earth before the Invid arrived from the animation in Denver. But we also know the Forces returning from deep space in the Master's era were armed with Ajax fighters as well.

No we don't, and in fact that assumption creates plot holes with the dialog.

I always felt the Late return jives more with the Show, "we are all born out in deep space..." made me think when i was younger that 20 or more years had passed since the Invid took the earth, Scott's disintrest and pure ignorance to rabbits and rain wouldn't fit with the ER's time line as he's have been born on earth a few years after Dana.

Scott's reactions and dialog taken in total points to him being ignorant of how Earth works because he's from Mars; boy is he happy when he finds what he directly calls a "Martian landscape" on Earth, and happy Scott in the early episodes was rare. As for the rest, I don't know that how you felt when you were younger is especially compelling evidence; I didn't feel that way when I was younger, for whatever that's worth. Years have passed, sure, but 20? That would be the 2050s. Where the hell would the REF have been for all those decades?

[ShadowLogan]

We know that the Alpha was present on earth before the Invid arrived from the animation in Denver.

No actually we don't. Toy/modelkit manufactures can latch onto concepts to produce products for consumption before the unit is actually present in hardware or mass production. That IS a possibility here that the toy/modelkits are out before the actual Alpha is in use.

I always felt the Late return jives more with the Show, "we are all born out in deep space..." made me think when i was younger that 20 or more years had passed since the Invid took the earth, Scott's disintrest and pure ignorance to rabbits and rain wouldn't fit with the ER's time line as he's have been born on earth a few years after Dana.

Which can work even w/n ER timeline:
-we know Carpenter's home was the Tok. for 15years (basically since the end of the 1RW, given 15years is the established elapsed time between Ep36-7), which allows for people to be born out in deep space and grow up.
-Cues in NG, and projected time for 2RW can allow for a few more years on top of that to apply to the NG crew that made it.
-We also know that ASC-era ships are outside of the Solar System BEFORE Carpenter, giving us additional time to play with
-adults on Earth in NG (early) didn't even want the expeditionary force, Rook knew about the Resort Island they visited (looking forward to visiting the place to IIRC)

We have: 15yr + 1yr (Lunk, approx in NG) + 1yr (pre Carpenter, aprox, this can go up to 2yr potentially) +1yr (2RW, aprox from series) =18-9years roughly. Which certainly falls within the range of "nearly 20years" said by the Narrator.

Yes, quite. The choices are "the Alpha predates the Ajax as per the people who created the episodes", or "the Alpha doesn't predate the Ajax per some fans on the internet". Technically? They're BOTH retcons, because they're both retroactively applied events we don't see in the episodes. But one is rather more solid than the other.

No the choices are based on episodes themselves (Ajax pre-dates Alpha) or post episode information that is morphable (Alpha pre-dates the Ajax).

He's not shown using any fighter in the flashback, its a bunch of stills. Lunk and Rand's dialog support the position that the Alpha isn't new; it shows they assume an Alpha is what a UEEF pilot would fly, so there's no need to specify. If the UEEF was known for different veritechs recently it would've needed to be specified, or even caused a misunderstanding. We also hear Wolfe tell Scott he's going to give him "a few pointers" while in the Alpha...clearly his capacity in that specific machine is not in doubt in the episode. In a fighter he and Scott know he's never used? Unlikely.

And in those bunch of stills is a fighter, it is implied that Wolfe is the pilot. Lunk and Rand may actually point to veritech operation being pretty standardized to allow basic operation at minimum given the number of pilots the Beta has (Scott, Rand, Lancer, Lunk IIRC) that overlap with the Alpha roster. Are Wolfe's pointers machine specific (to the Alpha) or tactics based (which doesn't necessarily require the Alpha)?

Sentinels shows the Beta not working out, in order to explain the use of Alphas but the Betas being a new thing in New Generation per the dialog. The..."fix"...is part and parcel of the scene in which they appear.

To me this would still be a "forced" fix. There is no actual reason that the staff had to go with the Alpha or other NG mecha/designs as being available in this period. They could also have just as easily not included the Beta in the period also and avoided the entire issue. Then there is the issue of meeting the Invid in 2020-2, but no one on Earth knows about them in 2029, etc. Sentinels creates problems to solve by the choices made in its development that are carried forward to this day, even with the housecleaning HG did in 2000.

Oh does he? So his model Cyclone is identified as new, the Beta is identified as new, Shadow tech and the Synchro cannon are identified as new when they show up, but we're all just supposed to "assume" that Alpha fighter is new despite it never being identified as new? There's a dissonance there.

Yes he does identify his Cyclone model as new. The Alpha Fighter is still "new" since w/n the actual 85ep there is no reference of it until Ep61.

You entirely missed the point of what I said. If you go by an Early Return timeline as supported by the 85 episodes, there is no big gap after the end of the 2nd Robotech War (a major plot hole of the Late Return scenario) for the Alpha to have been developed in. It *had* to have been a concurrent development, at the absolute latest, which means it wouldn't be a later development of technology, it would've been of the same technological era.

I think you miss mine. Even with concurrent designs, there will still be a "first" and "second" place for timeline related events like concept, design, approval, testing stages, production, service entry date, etc. It doesn't matter if it's ER or LR (which I agree with you isn't supported by the show), concurrency does not remove "first" or "second" place in terms of when an event happens between the two. In the 90s the US military concurrently developed the F/A-18E/F and the F-22 and RAH-66, they all did not appear at exactly the same time, and did not reach relevant events at the same time.

his suggests that the Ajax program was begun after the Alpha program had a finalized design, since otherwise you get the Ajax stuck in development for over a decade. it doesn't seem that complex.
most likely the Logan was developed alongside the Alpha, and then when the Alpha ended up optimized to the UEEF's doctrine

Timeline dates in the 2E RPG (using 1st 3 era books and RT.com timeline) I constructed awhile back, pulling useful bits here:
-2012 Alpha initial design (Wraith Project)
-2015 Alpha testing (Wraith project canceled/morphed into)
-2018 Logan production began (w/n 6months 12+ squadrons active)
-2020 Alpha entered flight testing, Beta counterpart quickly developed
-2022 Beta shelved after testing
-2020s (mid) AGAC is proposed (XV/H-1) as a pure helicopter program before being merged/morphed w/space fighter requirement
-2028 Prototype flown (YVFH-10), flaws found in first few months
-2029 Ep37 (Early in year, per RT.com timeline)
-2029 (Late in year) Logan being phased out, AGAC declared operational
-2030 Logan switch over to the AGAC

I have to disagree with you about the complexity of the AGAC/Ajax. In some respects yes the AGAC is more conservative design compared to the Alpha, but the transition from helicopter/jet is hardly mature technology. While I don't think the A/B linkup took the best approach, the designers would have lots of experience to draw upon (in-flight refueling, captive aircraft release, space docking, USS Akron/Macon retrieval, Parasite Fighter/Mothership combo, etc), the flight transition of the AGAC would be completely new (and neither two programs involved in this type of transition have done so with success AFAIK). So I can see the Ajax taking as long to develop if they want a helicopter-Jet transition available.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The Alpha is present as a model in a store abandoned before the invid attacked earth. Lunk has one he's stored in a tractor shed for a while. TS-85 is a fleet from hyper-space that has Ajax...
if the dialog says they are testing the Ajax and it's new... it follows the same logic if we use the Dialog from Scott, who says the cyclone is brand new, but the entire earth is populated by morons who are driving around on cyclones and many use the armor designed to bond with the cyclone....
Cyclone is "brand new", everyone had them on earth...
Ajax is also "brand new", people from deep space have them...
The excuse for Scott's dialog is that his model number is "brand new", i think that same excuse can be used for them testing new Ajax in the Master's era...

as for 20 years... what could they have been doing... Fighting Invid 9another planet full of hungry invid), Having babies to pilot the mecha they send back to die (all born out in deep space...).... Why would i think 20 years...
Old Grey haired men who came back to fight with Leonard against the Masters, Guns that date "all the way back" to the Master's war.
Early return of 2030's puts Scott born about the same time as Dana and unless he was born on a Zentradi ship or the factory satalie, he would have lived in the Earth solar system for over a decade of his life without ever touching or visiting the earth...
but we can agree to disagree....

[Colonel Wolfe]

We know that the Alpha was present on earth before the Invid arrived from the animation in Denver.

No actually we don't. Toy/modelkit manufactures can latch onto concepts to produce products for consumption before the unit is actually present in hardware or mass production. That IS a possibility here that the toy/modelkits are out before the actual Alpha is in use.

this weighed against the Alpha-drones Maxxwell owns... Unless Maxwell just owned models you know, expensive obsolete models that he uses to help the team later in the episode...

1yr(Lunk, approx in NG)

yeah... Lunks' whole the invid invasion was a year ago doesn't jive with Carla being mad a Lancer for disappearing 3 years ago... unless those weren't Invid trying to hunt him down after he crashed...

[ShadowLogan]

as for 20 years... what could they have been doing... Fighting Invid 9another planet full of hungry invid), Having babies to pilot the mecha they send back to die (all born out in deep space...).... Why would i think 20 years...

For most of that time I suspect they where out looking for the Masters. Dialogue in Ep61 points to the Invid being recent arrivals ("just another planet overrun by hungry Invid"-or close approximation to describe Earth), the Fleet could also be scattered. Look at how long it took them to send ONE SHIP to help in the war with the Masters, and apparently that is all they can give at that time (per Carpenter relaying from Reinheardt) though later additional help arrives (Wolfe, TS85, Old Timers, etc).

Old Grey haired men who came back to fight with Leonard against the Masters, Guns that date "all the way back" to the Master's war.

When/Where are they depicted when they came back to fight the Masters, since they could already have been old men with gray hair in TRM period.

Early return of 2030's puts Scott born about the same time as Dana and unless he was born on a Zentradi ship or the factory satalie, he would have lived in the Earth solar system for over a decade of his life without ever touching or visiting the earth...

How is that a problem though? Being on a Zent Ship/RFS would qualify as "robotech ship", and being in "deep space" can still put them in the Solar System (cues in TMS establish this). The "all" aspect the crewman mentions could just relate to those on the bridge and not the fleet as narrator puts it at nearly 20years but some have seen Earth.

this weighed against the Alpha-drones Maxxwell owns... Unless Maxwell just owned models you know, expensive obsolete models that he uses to help the team later in the episode...

That assumes we have to accept that those ARE Alpha-drones and not related to the Carpenter fighter (which isn't a stretch) or something else since Maxwell does call them antiques. At least going by what the show actually tells us and not other material when constructing a timeline.

yeah... Lunks' whole the invid invasion was a year ago doesn't jive with Carla being mad a Lancer for disappearing 3 years ago... unless those weren't Invid trying to hunt him down after he crashed...

I thought Carla said it was 2 years, and that is several episodes after Lunk's revelation and no hard date/elapsed time is given between episodes... Then we have to consider if anyone is rounding or exaggerating...

Constructing an Early Return timeline that works with the 85ep is not impossible and is what the series writers seem to be going for. Including Sentinels materials... that is the source of at least some inconsistencies w/n RT IMHO.

[Colonel Wolfe]

as for 20 years... what could they have been doing... Fighting Invid 9another planet full of hungry invid), Having babies to pilot the mecha they send back to die (all born out in deep space...).... Why would i think 20 years...

For most of that time I suspect they where out looking for the Masters. Dialogue in Ep61 points to the Invid being recent arrivals ("just another planet overrun by hungry Invid"-or close approximation to describe Earth), the Fleet could also be scattered. Look at how long it took them to send ONE SHIP to help in the war with the Masters, and apparently that is all they can give at that time (per Carpenter relaying from Reinheardt) though later additional help arrives (Wolfe, TS85, Old Timers, etc).

if earth had been home to humanity withint the last 3-4 years, the Blase dismissal of earth as "just another planet" shows a disgusting amount of callousness for people who are fighting to libertate a planet that has basically just been over ran... rather than people who see it as just another planet of many that the Invid have forces on.

When/Where are they depicted when they came back to fight the Masters, since they could already have been old men with gray hair in TRM period.

"all the way back" Lancer isn't talking about events that happened a few seconds before he arrives on Earth (as in ER, He's been on Earth a few months less than the Invid, or Before is you use Lunk's date). going by the ER dates, These grey hairs geriatrics came back in the same wave as Lancer did or a just before... The REf is scraping the bottom of the barrel to send these guys... did they Issue depends as part of their equipment.

I thought Carla said it was 2 years, and that is several episodes after Lunk's revelation and no hard date/elapsed time is given between episodes... Then we have to consider if anyone is rounding or exaggerating...

Nothing is more accurate than the Memory of a woman you jilted... if Carla says 3 years, I'd not place it a day under 3 years... and we consider that its 3 years since he left her... not since he crashed. no time queues are given for how long they spent together... if we can't put a time frame on how long between Paper-hero and the secret route, we can't place time markers on how long they spent together... Possibly several years.

[ShadowLogan]

if earth had been home to humanity withint the last 3-4 years, the Blase dismissal of earth as "just another planet" shows a disgusting amount of callousness for people who are fighting to libertate a planet that has basically just been over ran... rather than people who see it as just another planet of many that the Invid have forces on.

Not necessarily, remember some of them don't think of Earth as home like the older members of the crew do. You also assume that the REF/UEEF is in a position to do something about the invasion of Earth, based on the Masters they might not be.

"all the way back" Lancer isn't talking about events that happened a few seconds before he arrives on Earth (as in ER, He's been on Earth a few months less than the Invid, or Before is you use Lunk's date). going by the ER dates, These grey hairs geriatrics came back in the same wave as Lancer did or a just before... The REf is scraping the bottom of the barrel to send these guys... did they Issue depends as part of their equipment.

I am aware of the dialogue that establishes when the geriatrics arrive and such. What I am asking for is what they actually looked like at that point in time (when they arrive at Earth). Gabby's son in the holo hasn't aged much if at all, so ~10-2years would seem to push credibility (unless the guy is just naturally gifted so doesn't appear to have aged).

Actually by the show alone, is there anything that actually establishes Lancer as arriving post invasion? To me the montage from the 85ep points to Lancer being shot down during the Invasion or shortly after it (not the 7years late LR timeline has). It is only later material (like Invasion comic) that establishes when it actually happens, or even the actual year of Ep84/85 (original broadcast version did not use a date code in the episode).

Nothing is more accurate than the Memory of a woman you jilted... if Carla says 3 years, I'd not place it a day under 3 years... and we consider that its 3 years since he left her... not since he crashed. no time queues are given for how long they spent together... if we can't put a time frame on how long between Paper-hero and the secret route, we can't place time markers on how long they spent together... Possibly several years.

I think it is safe to say that several months happen between the episodes in question (weeks possibly if "Separate Ways" is an indication of average time between episodes).

As far as Carla's memory goes, yes I would consider it possible she is exaggerating.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The alpha was in what Sentinels animation that was produced. It was in a simulator where Jack Baker failed to rescue Rick Hunter digital avatar.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I am aware of the dialogue that establishes when the geriatrics arrive and such. What I am asking for is what they actually looked like at that point in time (when they arrive at Earth). Gabby's son in the holo hasn't aged much if at all, so ~10-2years would seem to push credibility (unless the guy is just naturally gifted so doesn't appear to have aged).

see, its Lancer's dialog... if he arrived right after the Master's were defeated and the while the invid invaded... why is he saying "all the clear back to the war against the Robotech masters" when he arrived during that period "Way back when we was soilders" according to the Old guys... you know, these guys by the ER arrived with Lancer... ... https://youtu.be/IOI7zcV5XFU?t=8m43s
as for the Kid aging... How long would it take to go from fresh recruit to com officer on the Flag-ship? and generall people don't age very much in apperance between 18-35... even Gabby looks like he is pretty young compared to the other guys in his group who are Granpas and the insperation for Bill Doutry from king of the hill...

actually by the show alone, is there anything that actually establishes Lancer as arriving post invasion? To me the montage from the 85ep points to Lancer being shot down during the Invasion or shortly after it (not the 7years late LR timeline has). It is only later material (like Invasion comic) that establishes when it actually happens, or even the actual year of Ep84/85 (original broadcast version did not use a date code in the episode).

This would be a false, as the guys hunting him down with Carla are colborators working with a invid trooper.. if this was during the invasion, its silly to think people allied with the invid that quickly, and even shortly after I'd be suprised many people would be siding with their new overlords that quickly. because Again, why is he saying and acting like the Master's war was a long time ago, if it was ending as he arrived? Why is Scott a little kid in his Wolfe Flashback when Wolfe is sent to earth, but Wolfe's been on earth a year? Wasn't Scott in the Wolf Pack?

I think it is safe to say that several months happen between the episodes in question (weeks possibly if "Separate Ways" is an indication of average time between episodes).

Eulogy, Genesis Pit, Enter Marlene and Secret Route all happen in a relativly short period.
In Eulogy an Overwhelming force of invid descend on Wolfe's Town and butcher everyone, Genesis pits happens, Point K was a recent battle per dialog, Marlene is dropped off and then they haven't named her by the time they get to Maxwell's town... some Cold people in Scott's group that they went a few week or months calling Ariel "hey you"... no wonder she is still shell-shocked.

As far as Carla's memory goes, yes I would consider it possible she is exaggerating.

if she had said 2 years, I'd buy some exxageration and such. but she said 3... even wiht Lunks invasion being a year ago, from the use of the term Invasion... I think its used to describe invid attacks... as the Mayor who held them hostage says "do you hero's think you can repel an invid invasion all by your self"... https://youtu.be/2m9bj5goCBA?t=6m15s

[Colonel Wolfe]

The alpha was in what Sentinels animation that was produced. It was in a simulator where Jack Baker failed to rescue Rick Hunter digital avatar.

The Sentinels Animation isn't in question at all. the 85 episodes are the canon for this discussion... as I was called out for my opinion on the mecha progression. I generally the topic on the finished production materials, 85 episodes, TSC and LLA.

[Sgt Anjay]

The alpha was in what Sentinels animation that was produced. It was in a simulator where Jack Baker failed to rescue Rick Hunter digital avatar.

The Sentinels Animation isn't in question at all. the 85 episodes are the canon for this discussion... as I was called out for my opinion on the mecha progression. I generally the topic on the finished production materials, 85 episodes, TSC and LLA.

The only actually complete version of Robotech is the novels, though of course those are not cross-compatible with other versions.

But that's an aside. Completely ignoring everything about Sentinels is ignoring the people who created the 85 episodes of Robotech. Saying you can't contradict the episodes but ignoring material by the people who created them isn't a consistent POV.

[Arnie100]

The alpha was in what Sentinels animation that was produced. It was in a simulator where Jack Baker failed to rescue Rick Hunter digital avatar.

What about the Alpha/Beta prototypes that Max and Karen were testing in The Sentinels movie?

[Colonel Wolfe]

The alpha was in what Sentinels animation that was produced. It was in a simulator where Jack Baker failed to rescue Rick Hunter digital avatar.

The Sentinels Animation isn't in question at all. the 85 episodes are the canon for this discussion... as I was called out for my opinion on the mecha progression. I generally the topic on the finished production materials, 85 episodes, TSC and LLA.

The only actually complete version of Robotech is the novels, though of course those are not cross-compatible with other versions.

But that's an aside. Completely ignoring everything about Sentinels is ignoring the people who created the 85 episodes of Robotech. Saying you can't contradict the episodes but ignoring material by the people who created them isn't a consistent POV.

The Sentinels was a unfinished production that was released in a unfinished and incomplete format. so what we do have is a aborted production that has about 80 minutes of animation that shows us very little and give no clear indication of time-frame. is Dana 5? 7? 9? 11? I'm sorry but I'm not going to take into account the 5 different versions of the sentinels for each and every debate. especially since each one creates more massive plot holes than anything the post-2000 group could have.... Tommy has been ham-strung by the poor execution of the efforts of the people from the 80's.
Plus we readily ignore the Movie which was a finished production. but its plot holes make the ones Sentinels creates like like the eye of the worlds smallest needle.
as far as considering the novels a "complete" version... its complete only in the sense that its completely garbage, its pretty clear that Lushchinoo and Daiely did as little research as possible to write them.... The lack of imagination and attention to detail is why the Early Return even exists...
See it is a consistent view because I don't need the Sentinels for the complete story of Robotech, what the staff in the 80's intended for the aborted Sentinels production is a moot point, if it had been a good enough story to bother finishing maybe I'd give it more weight than I do.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The alpha was in what Sentinels animation that was produced. It was in a simulator where Jack Baker failed to rescue Rick Hunter digital avatar.

What about the Alpha/Beta prototypes that Max and Karen were testing in The Sentinels movie?

Testing a Beta in the 2020's.... the Beta which is unknown to Lunk a trained engineer... thats a chunnel sized plot-hole.

[Sgt Anjay]

Yes, quite. The choices are "the Alpha predates the Ajax as per the people who created the episodes", or "the Alpha doesn't predate the Ajax per some fans on the internet". Technically? They're BOTH retcons, because they're both retroactively applied events we don't see in the episodes. But one is rather more solid than the other.

No the choices are based on episodes themselves (Ajax pre-dates Alpha) or post episode information that is morphable (Alpha pre-dates the Ajax).

The people who created those episodes disagree with your analysis and decided the Alpha predates the Ajax. Nothing I've seen from those episodes contradicts their decision. If I've to choose between their version of events and random internet guy...well then. You're free to go a different way, but don't pretend it's THE view available from the tv episodes.

He's not shown using any fighter in the flashback, its a bunch of stills. Lunk and Rand's dialog support the position that the Alpha isn't new; it shows they assume an Alpha is what a UEEF pilot would fly, so there's no need to specify. If the UEEF was known for different veritechs recently it would've needed to be specified, or even caused a misunderstanding. We also hear Wolfe tell Scott he's going to give him "a few pointers" while in the Alpha...clearly his capacity in that specific machine is not in doubt in the episode. In a fighter he and Scott know he's never used? Unlikely.

And in those bunch of stills is a fighter, it is implied that Wolfe is the pilot.

No it isn't. You can't even see a pilot in that still. To me the implication is that the thing that is blowing up in that still is a Bad Thing and it is blowing up thanks to Wolfe and his squadron, the Wolfe Pack, which is a Good Thing for which he is lionized. But implication is by it's nature subjective, and claiming it as evidence is reaching to justify your preexisting narrative rather than going on what was said and building the narrative from there.

Lunk and Rand may actually point to veritech operation being pretty standardized to allow basic operation at minimum given the number of pilots the Beta has (Scott, Rand, Lancer, Lunk IIRC) that overlap with the Alpha roster. Are Wolfe's pointers machine specific (to the Alpha) or tactics based (which doesn't necessarily require the Alpha)?

Are you implying Wolfe was piloting the Alpha at a "basic operation" level? Because ace pilot Scott Bernard himself is impressed. He says "A traitor wouldn't handle and Alpha fighter like that!" The clear context of the scene is Wolfe's an old hat returning to his old glory seeking redemption. To change the context of the scene is to rob that episode of its intent. And all for what? To push that the Alpha is inherently superior to the Ajax? So worthy.

Sentinels shows the Beta not working out, in order to explain the use of Alphas but the Betas being a new thing in New Generation per the dialog. The..."fix"...is part and parcel of the scene in which they appear.

To me this would still be a "forced" fix.

And to me it isn't any more forced than any of the many other "fixes" that makes Robotech different from the three component series. It is part and parcel of what Robotech is.

There is no actual reason that the staff had to go with the Alpha or other NG mecha/designs as being available in this period.

No, they didn't have to, but there was a reason for it, and a solid one: to have things from all three parts of Robotech in one show, part of the same story, and better unify the components of Robotech. It was a choice that made sense and was well within their authority to make. It wasn't egregious, as you seem to be implying.

Then there is the issue of meeting the Invid in 2020-2, but no one on Earth knows about them in 2029, etc. Sentinels creates problems to solve by the choices made in its development that are carried forward to this day, even with the housecleaning HG did in 2000.

Heh. I agree that them folding from Earth immediately to Tirol in 2022 and starting the narrative with the Invid is indeed a problem, a poor choice on their part from a continuity and storytelling standpoint; a fight throught the Masters' empire, possibly encountering other threats, and on to Tirol is much better to then encounter the Invid coming the other way is much better all around.

But there is no "etc." The "where has the REF been and what have they been doing" is the one actual major issue at large; other than that, it's not problematic at all. I point out here that Earth not knowing what the Invid are is problematic, NOT because of the Sentinels, but because the Zentraedi have been allies since before the end of the First Robotech War and the Zentraedi know very well who the Invid are. Continuity-wise, Earth should've known who the Invid were before the REF ever left.

Oh does he? So his model Cyclone is identified as new, the Beta is identified as new, Shadow tech and the Synchro cannon are identified as new when they show up, but we're all just supposed to "assume" that Alpha fighter is new despite it never being identified as new? There's a dissonance there.

Yes he does identify his Cyclone model as new. The Alpha Fighter is still "new" since w/n the actual 85ep there is no reference of it until Ep61.

New to the audience, but it is clearly not new to the characters, who go out of their way to point out all the new stuff but never do so to the Alpha.

You entirely missed the point of what I said. If you go by an Early Return timeline as supported by the 85 episodes, there is no big gap after the end of the 2nd Robotech War (a major plot hole of the Late Return scenario) for the Alpha to have been developed in. It *had* to have been a concurrent development, at the absolute latest, which means it wouldn't be a later development of technology, it would've been of the same technological era.

I think you miss mine. Even with concurrent designs, there will still be a "first" and "second" place for timeline related events like concept, design, approval, testing stages, production, service entry date, etc. It doesn't matter if it's ER or LR (which I agree with you isn't supported by the show), concurrency does not remove "first" or "second" place in terms of when an event happens between the two. In the 90s the US military concurrently developed the F/A-18E/F and the F-22 and RAH-66, they all did not appear at exactly the same time, and did not reach relevant events at the same time.

But they will be irrelevant to the discussion. If the craft were of two different generations of technology, then you could say that one is>the other, due to technological progression. But if they are of the same technological generation, then you cannot off-hand claim superiority of one over the other the way you are for the Alpha over the Ajax. They were developed using the same technological base. One may or may not be better at given roles, or maybe even overall, but without direct comparison that isn't possible to determine.

[Sgt Anjay]

The alpha was in what Sentinels animation that was produced. It was in a simulator where Jack Baker failed to rescue Rick Hunter digital avatar.

What about the Alpha/Beta prototypes that Max and Karen were testing in The Sentinels movie?

Testing a Beta in the 2020's.... the Beta which is unknown to Lunk a trained engineer... thats a chunnel sized plot-hole.

Every mechanic automatically knows every failed development program? Uh, no. That's not a big plot hole.

[Sgt Anjay]

The alpha was in what Sentinels animation that was produced. It was in a simulator where Jack Baker failed to rescue Rick Hunter digital avatar.

The Sentinels Animation isn't in question at all. the 85 episodes are the canon for this discussion... as I was called out for my opinion on the mecha progression. I generally the topic on the finished production materials, 85 episodes, TSC and LLA.

The only actually complete version of Robotech is the novels, though of course those are not cross-compatible with other versions.

But that's an aside. Completely ignoring everything about Sentinels is ignoring the people who created the 85 episodes of Robotech. Saying you can't contradict the episodes but ignoring material by the people who created them isn't a consistent POV.

The Sentinels was a unfinished production that was released in a unfinished and incomplete format. so what we do have is a aborted production that has about 80 minutes of animation that shows us very little and give no clear indication of time-frame. is Dana 5? 7? 9? 11? I'm sorry but I'm not going to take into account the 5 different versions of the sentinels for each and every debate.

There is no version of Robotech by anyone that actually explains the origin of the Alpha that does not have the Alpha pre-date the Ajax. Therefore, it wouldn't even matter which version of Sentinels or anything else was used.

especially since each one creates more massive plot holes than anything the post-2000 group could have.... Tommy has been ham-strung by the poor execution of the efforts of the people from the 80's.

B.S. They clearly had the power and the will to wield the retcon wand as much as they wanted. They were only ham-strung as much as they wanted to be. They're responsible for their own mistakes.

Also, if it wasn't for the "people from the 80's", there wouldn't be a Robotech; it does not do to ignore that.

as far as considering the novels a "complete" version... its complete only in the sense that its completely garbage, its pretty clear that Lushchinoo and Daiely did as little research as possible to write them....

It is complete in that it doesn't have big huge glaring empty spots that are years-long in the timeline and all the storylines are wrapped up. If you think the authors did "as little research as possible" you clearly don't understand what the novels are and were meant to be right from the beginning when Macek first met with them. But that's not what's at issue. What I'm saying is, only in the novels is a complete story told. Any other version, and you're left with trying to fill in the blanks. In some cases, there are indeed multiple versions of events to slot into those blanks.

The lack of imagination and attention to detail is why the Early Return even exists...

Funny, because I can point to a ton of details that actually point to Early Return. Late Return does require imagination, but of the "let's imagine these plot holes don't exist" kind.

See it is a consistent view because I don't need the Sentinels for the complete story of Robotech, what the staff in the 80's intended for the aborted Sentinels production is a moot point, if it had been a good enough story to bother finishing maybe I'd give it more weight than I do.

If it had fallen through because it was a "bad story" I would give that point of view any weight. But it didn't. It fell through for completely different reasons. Robotech: The Movie fell through because of how poorly it was made, but Sentinels fell through during production and never got made, let alone aired, thus it never had a chance to put its story to the cartoon-viewing audience of the mid-80s and receive a real test of its merit.

[Colonel Wolfe]

]B.S. They clearly had the power and the will to wield the retcon wand as much as they wanted. They were only ham-strung as much as they wanted to be. They're responsible for their own mistakes.

Also, if it wasn't for the "people from the 80's", there wouldn't be a Robotech; it does not do to ignore that.

the completion of Robotech is all good and fair, but the Failures on the part of the 80's staff to produce anything remotely successful as a squeal is firmly their fault, and left the Later Crew hamstung by poor storytelling, crap novels and even worse comics. Tommy is a pure genius to have been able to pull anything remotely money-making out of the pile of garbage he was left to contend with. Tommy brought about the return of the RPg rights to Palladium, 2 completed animated productions and quality comic lines from DC...
honestly this discussion is a exercise in futility. My opinions are based off my interpretations of the events in the series... my interpretation skews closer to the existing Late return time-frame... but as no one can actually supply in story calendar dates for the later 2 story arcs arguing either side isn't going to be able to prove anything. so i'm gonna bow out of this topic. Just like trying to argue the superiority of the fighters that we never see go head to head in any objective contest. The debates elsewhere have shown that reliance on tertiary sources of info like the OSM stats severly handi-caps the later era mecha in any comparison, which follows in opposition to the narrative of the show.

[Colonel Wolfe]

]B.S. They clearly had the power and the will to wield the retcon wand as much as they wanted. They were only ham-strung as much as they wanted to be. They're responsible for their own mistakes.

Also, if it wasn't for the "people from the 80's", there wouldn't be a Robotech; it does not do to ignore that.

the completion of Robotech is all good and fair, but the Failures on the part of the 80's staff to produce anything remotely successful as a squeal is firmly their fault, and left the Later Crew hamstung by poor storytelling, crap novels and even worse comics. Tommy is a pure genius to have been able to pull anything remotely money-making out of the pile of garbage he was left to contend with. Tommy brought about the return of the RPg rights to Palladium, 2 completed animated productions and quality comic lines from DC... all while trying to keep part of the horrid sentinels story around when it should have been flushed.
honestly this discussion is a exercise in futility. My opinions are based off my interpretations of the events in the series... my interpretation skews closer to the existing Late return time-frame... but as no one can actually supply in story calendar dates for the later 2 story arcs arguing either side isn't going to be able to prove anything. so i'm gonna bow out of this topic. Just like trying to argue the superiority of the fighters that we never see go head to head in any objective contest. The debates elsewhere have shown that reliance on tertiary sources of info like the OSM stats severly handi-caps the later era mecha in any comparison, which follows in opposition to the narrative of the show.

[Sgt Anjay]

Well far be it for me to deny anyone their personal vision of Robotech. We all have our inclinations.

I agree that over-reliance on things like OSM without looking at how it impacts the overall integrity of the big picture causes more problems than it helps. And I agree that technological progression is evident in the show. My main quibble was which generation of veritech the (non-Shadow tech) Alpha and Ajax belonged to.

[ShadowLogan]

see, its Lancer's dialog... if he arrived right after the Master's were defeated and the while the invid invaded... why is he saying "all the clear back to the war against the Robotech masters" when he arrived during that period "Way back when we was soilders" according to the Old guys... you know, these guys by the ER arrived with Lancer...

Probably because the war with the Masters and the war with the Invid are two separate wars. "Way back" or "clear back" doesn't establish LR scenerio, given the two wars are sequential. And the old timers no longer think of themselves as soliders, so when the refer to that period in their lives even if it was a short time ago it would be fair to describe it as "way back".

Gabby's son can certainly reach the flagship w/n the aloted time. The episode in question does not show them at the time they arrived, so they do nothing to establish elapsed time based on their ages because we don't know how old they actually where at the time.

This would be a false, as the guys hunting him down with Carla are colborators working with a invid trooper.. if this was during the invasion, its silly to think people allied with the invid that quickly, and even shortly after I'd be suprised many people would be siding with their new overlords that quickly. because Again, why is he saying and acting like the Master's war was a long time ago, if it was ending as he arrived? Why is Scott a little kid in his Wolfe Flashback when Wolfe is sent to earth, but Wolfe's been on earth a year? Wasn't Scott in the Wolf Pack?

First, I don't think Scott looks "like a little kid". Wolfe also would have been on Earth a lot longer than 1 year (Lunk's que), he did come back to fight in the Masters War.

As far as colborators working with the Invid, I don't think it is silly for people to have allied with the Invid. How fast have locals allied themselves with invaders in the past? Given that the Master's War ended and a new threat emerges, it can certainly feel like a long time ago.

if she had said 2 years, I'd buy some exxageration and such. but she said 3... even wiht Lunks invasion being a year ago, from the use of the term Invasion... I think its used to describe invid attacks... as the Mayor who held them hostage says "do you hero's think you can repel an invid invasion all by your self"

I do believe she says 2 years.

Lunk's use of the term "Invid Invasion" vs the Mayor's term of "Invid Invasion" can certainly have different ideas on what constitutes "Invid Invasion".

Tommy has been ham-strung by the poor execution of the efforts of the people from the 80's.

And at the same time he is trying to hang on to some of those efforts beyond the TV series in some form like Sentinels. The 2000-ish Reboot would have been a perfect opportunity to clean house from the mess Sentinels has helped to create w/n RT.

No it isn't. You can't even see a pilot in that still. To me the implication is that the thing that is blowing up in that still is a Bad Thing and it is blowing up thanks to Wolfe and his squadron, the Wolfe Pack, which is a Good Thing for which he is lionized. But implication is by it's nature subjective, and claiming it as evidence is reaching to justify your preexisting narrative rather than going on what was said and building the narrative from there.

I agree we can't see the pilot due to the lightning and position of the mecha, but given that the dialogue montage is about Wolfe it makes sense that the visuals are connected to him so he could be the pilot.

Are you implying Wolfe was piloting the Alpha at a "basic operation" level? Because ace pilot Scott Bernard himself is impressed. He says "A traitor wouldn't handle and Alpha fighter like that!" The clear context of the scene is Wolfe's an old hat returning to his old glory seeking redemption.

A traitor though would likely not be scoring kills with an Alpha fighter either.

To push that the Alpha is inherently superior to the Ajax?

I do not push that view (that is Col. Wolfe). The view I maintain is that the series supports the Ajax came into use before the Alpha, not if one is inherently superior to the other.

New to the audience, but it is clearly not new to the characters, who go out of their way to point out all the new stuff but never do so to the Alpha.

The Cyclone MODEL Scott references is new (VR-052), we know from Lunk's flashback that Cyclones in general are older (VR-041 used by Nadar jr). For what ever reason people refer to the VR-038/041/052 as Cyclones only, not Battler, Saber, etc. That allows "new" models to exist while also being "old" in a broader context.

But there is no "etc." The "where has the REF been and what have they been doing" is the one actual major issue at large; other than that, it's not problematic at all. I point out here that Earth not knowing what the Invid are is problematic, NOT because of the Sentinels, but because the Zentraedi have been allies since before the end of the First Robotech War and the Zentraedi know very well who the Invid are

There is "etc". That the Zentraedi don't know anything about the Invid is not problematic in of itself, the Zentreadi don't know how to repair things either pointing toward the Masters restricting information to them. The Zentreadi could have their own term for the Invid (so no one on Earth would recognize the Masters term) or not even been used to engage the Invid. As to what the REF has been doing, they did not have to use the Invid though they could have used the DoZ that are mentioned in TMS. And I get the idea of creating links, but they could use the other designs from within the NG arc (Conbat, Condor, ships, VR-041, Wolfe's flashback fighter, etc).

Every mechanic automatically knows every failed development program? Uh, no. That's not a big plot hole.

If the failed program wasn't tied to closely I might agree here, but the Alpha has a connection system for the Beta. The Blue Alpha has it that Lunk restored/maintained, so in all that time Lunk was never curious as to what it was for, and assuming manuals are available to him make no reference to what that connection gear is for?

[Colonel Wolfe]

Probably because the war with the Masters and the war with the Invid are two separate wars. "Way back" or "clear back" doesn't establish LR scenerio, given the two wars are sequential. And the old timers no longer think of themselves as soldiers, so when the refer to that period in their lives even if it was a short time ago it would be fair to describe it as "way back".

Talk about a stretch to prove a point... ER requires that Lancer has been on earth only a few weeks shorter than the Old Timers, as the End end of the Master's war brought the Invid assault directly afterwards... If they came back at the end of the Master's war, and Lancer at the beginning of the invid war... they came back essentially at the same time. I wonder if Solders coming back from today's conflicts talk about "way back during the war against ISIS"... but this is all subjective as the old timers do not give an exacting time frame, but the dialog take on face value implies to me that Lancer is surprised by the age of the gear they have "acquired" much less surprised than someone who would have been given equipment from the same time period.

First, I don't think Scott looks "like a little kid".

again, Lack of a firm establish age means his appearance and age are Subjective in his flash back, he gives no time frame. I think it Looks like he is 7 years old to me, and if he's about 21 in the show Wolfe has been on earth 14 years... see, all Subjective, no ones opinions are more valid than the others in absence of facts.

I do believe she says 2 years.

I know it is 3 years. see, I watch the episodes before I quote them. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2kqw0y Start about the 5 minute mark... at 7 minutes she says plainly "so after 3 years you come back, they have been the 3 longest years of my life, I've missed you, what happened to you"- unless Scott and crew spent 2 years between Paper Hero and Secret route, Lunk's year ago can't be taken at face value considering the phrase "Invid invasion" is used in that episode to reference a conflict occurring directly outside as I quoted above..
Early return means that Lancer was shot down my Invid during their initial assault, She rescued him, dressed him as a woman while he was still injured from the crash to hide him from the Invid who are working with the towns folk mere days after the Invid initial attack on the planet...

[Jefffar]

We do see multiple generations of the Alpha between New Generation and TSC. It is quite possible that while early model Alphas were introduced before the Ajax, late model Alphas feature a number if upgrades that make them superior to the Ajax at the end of its short production run.

[Kagashi]

The alpha was in what Sentinels animation that was produced. It was in a simulator where Jack Baker failed to rescue Rick Hunter digital avatar.

What about the Alpha/Beta prototypes that Max and Karen were testing in The Sentinels movie?

Not canon any more, thus irrelevant.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not canon any more, thus irrelevant.

That's a gray area... the canon history for the Beta does mention the unsuccessful VF-X-7 prototype of the craft that was shelved for many years, which could be interpreted as the problematic prototype from the 2020's/Sentinels.


Edit: The Infopedia article actually explicitly states it was in testing in 2022, the time period officially assigned to the events belonging to the start of the Sentinels arc.

[Arnie100]

Here's some interesting stuff:
http://seesaawiki.jp/harmony-gold_japan ... 5%ac%a5%f3
http://seesaawiki.jp/harmony-gold_japan ... 3%a5%c8%29
http://image02.seesaawiki.jp/h/n/harmon ... fa6a42.jpg
http://image02.seesaawiki.jp/h/n/harmon ... 1e770e.gif
http://image02.seesaawiki.jp/h/n/harmon ... 8f63cf.gif
I just fell in love with the Logan all over again! Lol!
Wait...What the...
http://image01.seesaawiki.jp/h/n/harmon ... 443a53.gif

[Lt Gargoyle]

i love the pictures. I cannot read the japanese. but the images are awesome.

the logan shooting missile. i do not recall that in the show.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

the logan shooting missile. i do not recall that in the show.

Its in Stardust.....

[yuiyuasa]

Okay,enjoy my own VERITECH AGACs or Logan technical web pages !

yui's multi Robotech webpage index

yui1107's gallery on the deviantart.com

The Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross on the Facebook

VFH (VERITECH Fighter Helicopter/gyrodyne) MASTER file Auroran (The represent webpage, plus more 5 webpages)

VF-8 (Light weight VERITECH Fighter) MASTER file Logan (The represent webpage, plus more 5 webpages)

C-37 Albatross (Tactical heavy transporter aircraft) MASTER file

Ms.Blanche Fontaine （Ph.D. in Engineering）was a noted military aircraft designer ( She was a noted military aircraft designer for the Liège Imdstries lourd. )

[ShadowLogan]

the logan shooting missile. i do not recall that in the show.

Its in Stardust.....

Yes it is implied to have fired the missile volley in "Star Dust" I do not dispute that.

I strongly suspect this image is fan-art that is the source of Lt Gargoyle's statement that appears in Arnie100's previous post:
http://image01.seesaawiki.jp/h/n/harmon ... 443a53.gif

It shows the Logan in G-mode firing off missiles from various locations Alpha/VF-1GBP-1S style (lower leg "landing gear bay", chest "intakes", back from somewhere).

[yuiyuasa]

*VF-8 Logan with NP-BP-01 booster FAST pack

1. VF-8 Logan attatchments about NP-BP-01 booster FAST pack

2. VF-8 Logan attatchments ( Mr. Harvey Neil Johnston's blue print) about NP-BP-01 booster FAST pack

3. VF-8 Logan addition rocket enjine pod and forearms attatchments

[yuiyuasa]

Robotech II The Sentinels - Book I - volume- 09 : Here, There, And Everywhere　page 12

It shows the Logan in G-mode firing off missiles from various locations Alpha/VF-1GBP-1S style (lower leg "landing gear bay", chest "intakes", back from somewhere).

[yuiyuasa]

Jonathan Wolff and wingman by VF-8 Logan Robotech II The Sentinels - Book I ,Volume- 09 : Here, There, And Everywhere (page 10)

[yuiyuasa]

Jamie Samans said : Robotech The Masters War on Facebook I would think that the Robotech engineers would have instead crafted a booster pack in the spirit of the Beta fighter, something that could be used as a heavy-weapons platform while the Logan was closing and then jettisoned to allow the mecha more flexibility in close-in combat. I like the look, you understand; I just struggle with why the ASC would outfit Logans in such a manner.

VF-8 Logan [Alpha] + VFB-11 Blowgun [Beta]

VF-8 Logan [Alpha] + VFB-11 Blowgun [Beta]

Orjinal plan Jose Ortiz's a piece of the first sketch.
Design note and operational concept
Becoming it is indispensable a burden, range, dual seats to use VF-8 LOGAN for Fighter-Bomber [FB], Wild-Weasel duty aircraft, EL-ectric INT-elligence [ELINT], Early Warning And Control System [EWACS] etc.
However, originally is lowest-volume; light; referred to "VFA-6 LEGIOSS" and "VFB-9 TRead" combination and was elaborated a plan demand realization by the combination with the support aircraft to give VF-8 LOGAN designed as the "LIGHT" VERITECH/variable fighter remodeling to satisfy this demand because the forward fuselage was too small.
That design was considered to be α+β [alpha plus beta] and tried that I realized a demand by the combination of systems named VF-8 Logan [Alpha] + VFB-11 Blowgun [Beta]".
Alpha Logan + " Beta Blowgun "conbination !

The dual-seated Fighter-Bomber suitable for Wild Weasel combat-trainer !

[Kagashi]

VF-8 Logan [Alpha] + VFB-11 Blowgun [Beta]

The dual-seated Fighter-Bomber suitable for Wild Weasel combat-trainer !

Looks like two bugs mating.

[Lt Gargoyle]

the logan shooting missile. i do not recall that in the show.

Its in Stardust.....

thank you. I ll watch it again.

[yuiyuasa]

http://yui1107.deviantart.com/art/Light ... -557405042

Mr. KG's answer to yui.
My impression (Mr.KG) is so something not clear of the advantage as the merit is strong.
To see the pattern and the advantage of the operation very much though engines are convenience of five it.
To increase the main engine while it is a conception of finishing the FAST packing by the misappropriation is to retreat piping and not getting into trouble the flexibility of not simplicity but the propellant.

If it is a fluid though the fuel that can be used for a chemical rocket is prepared with great pains, it is impression that bringing to any good reactive engine in also lacks the rationality.
Increasing a simple tank (level with the posture control thruster) on a past engine simply than the FAST packing is misappropriated can seem to use each function effectively simply.

In such feeling though it is a coarse picture.
If the FAST packing is assumed to be a misappropriation, should I put the part of the tail there instead of the pylon?
Is there a problem of the view after the transformation, too?
Because it will advance like the horizontal position because it seems not to be able to turn the engine packing below when it is that structure.

(Orijinal Japanese language)

[優衣さんへのお返事です。]
ん〜、と、なにかこう、利点がはっきりしない印象が強いです。
エンジンが都合5基になっているけれども、その運用のパターンと利点がどうも見えないなと。
FASTパックを流用で済ますという発想である一方で、メインエンジンの増設をしているのは簡易ではなく、推進剤の融通の配管もめんどくさいですし。
せっかく化学ロケットに使える燃料を用意していながら、流体ならなんでも良い反応エンジンに持ち込むのも合理性に欠ける印象。
FASTパックを流用するより単純に従来のエンジンの上に単純なタンク（姿勢制御スラスター付き程度）を増設した方がシンプルで各機能も有効に活用できる様に思えます。
ちょー雑な絵ですが、こんな感じで。
FASTパックを流用とするなら、尾翼の部分をパイロン代わりにしてそこに付けるのが良いのかと。
あと、変形後の視界の問題もあるかな…。あの構造だとエンジンパックを下に向ける事が出来なそうなので、水平位置のまま前進してくる事になるので。

[yuiyuasa]

Nice rendering and re-design for the medium weight Atmosphere exclusive VERITECH Fighter VF-7X


*VERITECH Fighter Master File: VF-7X Flies over land by X1Commander on Deviantart

[yuiyuasa]

It is unpublished in the general public though lineart (Settei art) of VFH-10A AGACs "Auroran" is drawn.

Therefore, the film that takes a picture of the cockpit and the instrument panel of VFH-10A is scarce.
Original S.D.C Souepthern Cross ep.18 “Triple Mirror" (Robotech Masters ep.50 Triumvirate corresponding) Capture from screen of about 18:54.

VFH-10A AGACs instrument panel

VFH-10A AGACs Auroran transformation sequence