Horror Factor v. Horror Factor

[lassic]

How do you all treat HF v. HF? Seljuk HF 11 meets Secondary Vampire HF 12. I have seen a couple of instances where GM's (myself inc) have ran that the HF differential is the number to save by, or that the difference is the modifier to the HF roll, and that they still have to make the roll. i.e. the seljuk would be -1 to his roll and the vamp would be +1 to his roll. thoughts, other things you all do?

[eliakon]

I would say that they both have to make a HF roll. Just because you are scary yourself doesn't mean you can not get scared too.
I would not make a Secondary Vampire save against another Secondary Vampire (*yawn* "hey sis")....but when the Master Vampire shows up in a rage....yah both of them need to make a HF save ("Dad's pissed, what did you do?" "Me what did YOU do" "BOTH OF YOU SHUT UP" *quivering silence*)
I also though tend to be very lenient on HF rolls, and only have them rolled when appropriate. If your a True Atlantian Undead Slayer then I am not going to make you roll against secondary vampires. To you their a dime a dozen. But you will have to roll against that Murder Wrath because what the heck was that?

[say652]

Hf is a gms bestie.

Always roll hf if available.
Losing initiative and an action even the odds quick like.

[mercedogre]

both parties roll a 20 and add their own HF, highest wins

[say652]

The gunslinger and vampire turn to face one another, fear steaks across both their faces as the turn and run.

Shortest combat ever. Lol

[Alrik Vas]

Like many things, though it doesn't always make sense or fit nicely into a crunch table, the GM may have to arbitrate to resolve it.

Case in point, HF on Big Bore weapons. nothing supernatural should have to roll against that. Maybe if it was hilarity factor, they'd have to save to not bust up laughing at you.

In any case, vampires shouldn't be afraid of anything aside sunlight, not really. Maybe Gods of Light or some such as well.

Though really, eliakon said it well enough. When something becomes dime a dozen and you've fought it since the day you had tattoos inked on, they're not really horrific anymore.

And unless that gunslinger is sporting a pair of thunder guns, I really don't think a vamp would be subject to their horror factor.

[Glistam]

Interesting note... page 367 of Rifts: Ultimate Edition says the following about Horror Factor:

All monsters and supernatural creatures have a Horror Factor (H.F.). The Horror Factor represents either the hideous appearance or its overwhelming aura of evil and power, or a combination of the two. Whenever a human/mortal encounters one of these terrors, the character must roll a 20-sided die (1D20) to see whether or not he or she is momentarily stunned by the sheer horror of the thing. This Horror Factor roll might be thought of as a saving throw or mental parry. Fortunately, the character only needs to roll for the first melee round of each encounter, not every combat.

The interesting part to me is where it talks about only humans and/or mortals having to roll for Horror Factor.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Early disclaimer, this post will be a long one.

First, I'll address the Original Poster. Quick answer is that I'd say both roll as normal. For a more in depth answer to some house rules, see this link:

http://www.prysus.com/horror_factor_expanded.htm

Now, onto other matters ...

The interesting part to me is where it talks about only humans and/or mortals having to roll for Horror Factor.

This is a false statement. The book does NOT say "only" humans/mortals. I know you quoted the book, but I'll quote it again.

Whenever a human/mortal encounters one of these terrors, the character must roll a 20-sided die (1D20) to see whether or not he or she is momentarily stunned by the sheer horror of the thing.

Let's try this with a different statement.

"Whenever you encounter a square, it will have four sides."

Following the same thought process from the RUE quote, you'd read that as: "Only squares have four sides." Except, that's not what I said, and it's definitely not true. The book quote neither includes nor excludes other types of beings. At best, from this statement alone, it's an unknown.

Now, in other books such as Rifts Conversion Book One (Original)*, there are other interesting quotes.

*Note: I'm using Rifts Conversion Book One (Original) and not Revised because I cannot find any description of Horror Factor in the Revised book. Meanwhile, I believe (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong), that Rifts Conversion Book One (Original) introduced Horror Factor into Rifts (it was not in the Main Book that I can find). As it's an introduction, it may (though not a guarantee) cover it better than basic recaps.

The more frightening and inhuman a creature is, the more horrific it is to humans and most humanoids. [snip] ... they radiate an "Awe Factor" that works the same as a Horror Factor - humans and mortals are stunned by their beauty, while the forces of evil are horrified by their power, reputation, and radiance.

So, to me, this tells us three important things.

1: The term "humans and most humanoids" is used and later "humans and mortals," which from reading it seems the equivalent of your "humans/mortals" line in RUE.

2: This states that "Awe Factor" works the same as Horror Factor. So the two work (mechanically) the same, though the fluff text and description may change.

3: Then goes on to say "humans and mortals are stunned by their beauty, while the forces of evil are horrified by their power ..." Considering the context, the "while" seems to be in contrast. So something OTHER than the humans and mortals being used in the rest of the example. This tells us that beings that are NOT human/mortal are affected by Awe Factor (ergo, Horror Factor as well because it works the SAME way).

Now, we could assume that RUE tried to change this by removing other types of beings, but it never states this. What it does is continue to use the terms such as "humans/mortals" which is basically the same as the Conversion Book One write-up. The only real difference is that RUE doesn't discuss Awe Factor. We could try to say that only Awe Factor can affect other types of beings, but that would mean that it works differently than Horror Factor. We could try to say that maybe RUE removed Awe Factor, but I can tell you Awe Factor was used in Rifts books after RUE came out.

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Furthermore, we have to ask why do all these beings (such as Gods and Alien Intelligences) have Save vs. Horror Factor bonuses? Before you try to give an answer, consider the next question. Where will you find the rules for Horror Factor? If it's Page 367 of RUE (or equivalent), then you'll have to go back to the rule that only humans (which I'll repeat, isn't written) are affected.

Also, if you think things like magic spells (as suggested in a previous thread) are why gods and A.I. have Save vs. H.F., then let me ask why you think that a spell giving a magical aura exuding Horror Factor is somehow scarier than a creature with a magical aura exuding Horror Factor? I admit not all magic is equal, but if the Supernatural is affected by magic, then it shouldn't be somehow not affected by magic.

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Now, if I had to explain why Palladium used terms like "humans/mortals" and not more general, it's because Palladium tends to write with the concept that player characters will be humans/mortals. And if you think not, then look at Character Creation. The first step written isn't pick a race, but to roll your attributes and provides the stats for human characters. Though I will admit this is only my explanation of why it's used, and I cannot prove it. Of course, I have yet to see proof that H.F. only applies to humans/mortals.

That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[SpiritInterface]

The gunslinger and vampire turn to face one another, fear steaks across both their faces as the turn and run.

Shortest combat ever. Lol

Not quite the same. The Gunslingers is a rep based HF, based on more who he is and not what he is. Where as the Vampires HF is solely on the fact that it is a vampire.

So unless the Vamp knows who the Slinger is and that he carries a weapon lethal to him, the Slinger would go "draw pardner" and the Vamp bares his fangs, the Slinger if he fails his check goes "ehb" and the Vamp sucks him dry...