Which mecha is the true successor to the VF-1: Alpha or Beta

[Seto Kaiba]

There isn't much of anything on the inter-period though. The 2E RPG does mention "The mighty Alpha has been the premier aerospace superiority mecha of the UEEF for nearly thirty years, with continuous updates and new production keeping the vehicle completely up-to-date."

Which is, as we've noted before, at odds with the canon description (and depictions in deprecated material) that indicate the Alpha's -H and -I variants were the standard throughout the Expedition's mission in space, with late 3rd War introductions of new variants for atmospheric service (VF/A-6Z) and later wholesale replacement by the stealth-oriented "Shadow Fighter" redesign in the 2040's.

I would be inclined to dismiss the RPG's view out of hand, and not only because it's at odds with canon in almost every respect... it's also inconsistent with itself. The very first sentence of its fluff tells us it's been the "premier aerospace superiority mecha" for UEEF forces for nearly 30 years, and not even two full pages later it's done a complete 180 and is telling us that the Alpha fighter wasn't a production model until 2031. That means that the Alpha's service lifespan was 12 years before its replacement, not 30. Even canon dates only give it 22 years between its introduction and retirement... that's a far cry from 30 as well.

Now I agree they aren't identified specifics, but the wording does establish that what we see in 2042-4 is not static over the course of 30years as it has recieved updates, which means hardware/software capabilities have changed. It also leaves room for "minor" and non-standard variations.

As noted above, that whole line of reasoning falls apart on examination... even the basic math doesn't work out, and it's at odds with the development histories in both canon and the RPG itself. It's categorically impossible for the Alpha to have received updates over "nearly 30 years" in service when the bloody thing had only been in production for 12 years when it was replaced, and the prototype first flew a mere 23 years before the design's retirement. In order for it to have had nearly 30 years of upgrades and production, it would have to have actually been in service for nearly 30 years... which it wasn't, not in the RPG and not in canon either.

By the same token though tactical missiles can have guidance systems that are less susceptible to jamming/decoys.

True, though we have an excellent argument that the conventional missiles used by the mecha of the UEEF are, in fact, using either radar or infrared guidance... and thus are vulnerable to chaff, flares, ECM, or other similar measures.

We know, via AotSC, that shadow fields offer no protection from detection by reflected light... and we're shown in the Prelude comic and the Shadow Chronicles "movie" itself that UEEF missile systems can't lock onto craft protected by shadow fields. So that means that, apart from the optical seekers used by the Super Shadow Fighters, the munitions used by the UEEF are using forms of guidance against which the shadow fields protect... technologies which rely on other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, like a radar or infrared guidance system.

A statement that as I've said many times in the past does not add up. Even if we take it as true (and I don't), the context points to a SSTO profile from the surface, not an aborted re-entry. An aborted re-entry will have a point of no-return, where it has lost to much velocity to return to orbit, but there will be a window of opportunity it can use to return to orbit.

Yes, and the window must be very small because 1. we never see them even attempt to abort and 2. they explicitly have a highly limited fuel capacity which would necessarily impose a tight return window.

I would not apply anything related to RTSC and the moon in that, due to it visibly presenting the moon as being SIGNIFICANTLY closer to Earth than it is in reality. The delta-v math is screwed up by that bit of dramatic license on HG's part.

[ShadowLogan]

Which is, as we've noted before, at odds with the canon description (and depictions in deprecated material) that indicate the Alpha's -H and -I variants were the standard throughout the Expedition's mission in space, with late 3rd War introductions of new variants for atmospheric service (VF/A-6Z) and later wholesale replacement by the stealth-oriented "Shadow Fighter" redesign in the 2040's.

Even if the -H/I variants are the standard, neither the RPG nor HG seems to identify with Block Upgrades. So we could have -6H/I throughtout the period, but receiving block updates.

I would be inclined to dismiss the RPG's view out of hand, and not only because it's at odds with canon in almost every respect... it's also inconsistent with itself. The very first sentence of its fluff tells us it's been the "premier aerospace superiority mecha" for UEEF forces for nearly 30 years, and not even two full pages later it's done a complete 180 and is telling us that the Alpha fighter wasn't a production model until 2031. That means that the Alpha's service lifespan was 12 years before its replacement, not 30. Even canon dates only give it 22 years between its introduction and retirement... that's a far cry from 30 as well.

I'm not sure it is at odds with canon or itself. The statement is one of those points of view thing.

The Alpha design itself IS ~30 years old, it did fly in competition against the VF-X-4 in 2015 (+30years equals 2045, or nearly 30years in 2044). So if the 30 years is intended to include development it would be about right. The design itself is linked to the Wraith project in 2012.

Actually what it says is that mass production started in 2031, but limited production was done exclusively for the UEEF for several years in small numbers. There is a big difference since that allows the Alpha to be in production and service, but not necessarily mass production.

The UEEF mission itself isn't said to really get started until 2022. So during that buildup time, the Alpha would be their "premier" fighter. Even if they used the VF-1, it wouldn't be "premier" since it is not a UEEF "first".

. It's categorically impossible for the Alpha to have received updates over "nearly 30 years" in service when the bloody thing had only been in production for 12 years when it was replaced, and the prototype first flew a mere 23 years before the design's retirement

Actually it is possible to some extent if the development time is included. The Genia prototype (FTS) looks like it has intakes on the upper arm assembly in fighter mode (near the fueselage) and some other minor styling tweaks in the SB part of FTS graphic novel, that is the design in 2015.

If the Alpha is 5years old in 2020 when the Beta counterpart was initially developed/conceived, there would have to be changes to the mecha to accommodate its working relationship with the Beta since the Beta concept comes much later (at least 5 years). So we have some level of upgrades taking place from the inital design. When the Beta is revisited later by 2035 (RPG date) they likely also had to consider technology going into the Alpha as well as the Beta. So another set of upgrades (the technology in the Beta is said to have matured, so it is possible it is not the exact same as the hardware in 2022).

If the -Z is a later development, that is another example of an upgrade to the frame. The 2E RPG doesn't mention when the Z comes about though, it just establishes it as one of the "major standard" designs in the period it is looking at specifically.

The Alpha design is also connected at first to an unmanned drone fighter. So converting an unmanned mecha to a manned platform will aslo necessitate some upgrades since it never had to consider a pilot before.

In order for it to have had nearly 30 years of upgrades and production, it would have to have actually been in service for nearly 30 years

It does not need to be in service for 30years to receive upgrades and production. Production can and does occur before mass production in limited lots, and even before it enters service (have you heard of low-rate production before?). Upgrades can result from testing and development. The YF-22 after it won the ATF competition in April of 1991 had several design changes made to it around the time of selection, and given the changing requirements during development more changes had to be made (air-ground was not part of the original design consideration).

True, though we have an excellent argument that the conventional missiles used by the mecha of the UEEF are, in fact, using either radar or infrared guidance... and thus are vulnerable to chaff, flares, ECM, or other similar measures.

IR/Radar guidance may be vulnerable to those things, but they can and are made to be "resistant" to those techniques in RL. So I don't see the UEEF not having missile guidance systems that are resistant as unlikely. What it might indicate is the typical UEEF missile threat they encounter is "below" their tech level in guidance, so that when they meet someone closer to their level (Edwards) they are not prepared for it.

the munitions used by the UEEF are using forms of guidance against which the shadow fields protect... technologies which rely on other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, like a radar or infrared guidance system.

Possibly. The UEEF mecha could not get a lock on to Shadow equipped mecha, but that does not preclude them from being able to engage successfully with missiles (Scott, though it might be more of spray and pray method). I think what it shows more is that the initial targeting system of the UEEF mecha are vulnerable, not necessarily the missiles themselves to shadow system.

Yes, and the window must be very small because 1. we never see them even attempt to abort and 2. they explicitly have a highly limited fuel capacity which would necessarily impose a tight return window.

I would not apply anything related to RTSC and the moon in that, due to it visibly presenting the moon as being SIGNIFICANTLY closer to Earth than it is in reality. The delta-v math is screwed up by that bit of dramatic license on HG's part.

But who gets to make the call to abort? and in what context are the pilot's allowed to abort on their own? There is a recommendation made by Scott (IIRC) in Ep61 to pull-out, but he is over ruled by the guy on the Horizon.

I am aware of the supposed "limited fuel capacity", but without specifics that is very vague. I am not using RT-TSC animation here. I referenced text itself in the art book, but not the animation which is a bit different. The art book appears to revise what the Infopedia states with a more generous assessment, the 2E RPG goes even further. None of this relies on TSC animation itself with its horrid dramatic licence/story and bad delta-v math.

[Seto Kaiba]

Even if the -H/I variants are the standard, neither the RPG nor HG seems to identify with Block Upgrades. So we could have -6H/I throughtout the period, but receiving block updates.

... in the complete absence of any evidence to suggest block upgrades are even a thing in Robotech, we can't take that as any kind of plausible explanation. Especially since the alleged improvements are mentioned in connection with an internal inconsistency the RPG foisted upon itself.

I'm not sure it is at odds with canon or itself. The statement is one of those points of view thing.

No, it really isn't... the text of the RPG is demonstrably contradictory on this, and no interpretation of the literal text fits the time frame initially cited.

The Alpha design itself IS ~30 years old, it did fly in competition against the VF-X-4 in 2015 (+30years equals 2045, or nearly 30years in 2044). So if the 30 years is intended to include development it would be about right. The design itself is linked to the Wraith project in 2012.

No, you're conflating early and pre-production developments with the final product in service here.

Put simply, the VF/A-6 Alpha cannot have been the primary aerospace fighter of the UEEF before it was even off the drawing board, which we're told point-blank didn't happen until 2020. To be the UEEF's "premier" aerospace superiority fighter, it would need to be employed in sufficient numbers to make it the dominant aerospace superiority platform in service. The text indicates that it wasn't available in significant numbers until after mass production started in 2031. The longest possible period the Alpha could have been the UEEF's "premier aerospace superiority fighter" is 12-13 years, depending on how rapidly the mass-production rate was and how quickly they were adopted.

The forerunners of the Alpha design (the YQ-6000 Phantom and VF-X-6 Genia) are almost 30 years old, but the actual Alpha fighter isn't nearly old enough to make that statement true or even vaguely plausible.

If the -Z is a later development, that is another example of an upgrade to the frame. The 2E RPG doesn't mention when the Z comes about though, it just establishes it as one of the "major standard" designs in the period it is looking at specifically.

First, we know roughly when the VF/A-6Z was introduced... in the last few years of the 3rd Robotech War.

To characterize it as an upgrade is just fundamentally inaccurate. Its improvements were not incorporated into either the baseline Alpha fighter, and after the decision to pass on upgrading to the VF/A-6Z was reached the upgrades were not incorporated into the VF/A-6X either.

It's not an upgrade, it's a regime-optimized variant like one of the flavors of modern F-35... and a rejected one at that.

The Alpha design is also connected at first to an unmanned drone fighter. So converting an unmanned mecha to a manned platform will aslo necessitate some upgrades since it never had to consider a pilot before.

That's redesign, not upgrades.

It does not need to be in service for 30years to receive upgrades and production. Production can and does occur before mass production in limited lots, and even before it enters service (have you heard of low-rate production before?).

But it DOES need to be in service for "nearly 30 years" to be the premier aerospace superiority fighter of the UEEF for "nearly 30 years"... and also to receive that "nearly 30 years" of alleged continuous updates and new production.

IR/Radar guidance may be vulnerable to those things, but they can and are made to be "resistant" to those techniques in RL.

Yes, which leads to people developing more effective chaff, better flares, and so on and so forth... lather, rinse, repeat.

What it might indicate is the typical UEEF missile threat they encounter is "below" their tech level in guidance, so that when they meet someone closer to their level (Edwards) they are not prepared for it.

Which would be rather odd, considering Vince point-blank tells Edwards in Prelude that humanity is the technological slow child of the galaxy... of course, the absence of countermeasure dispensers on the Alpha and Beta is readily explained by the fact that nobody but humanity really uses missiles after the Zentradi go the way of the dinosaur.

[ShadowLogan]

But it DOES need to be in service for "nearly 30 years" to be the premier aerospace superiority fighter of the UEEF for "nearly 30 years"... and also to receive that "nearly 30 years" of alleged continuous updates and new production.

What does the writer/HG intend as the method for rounding "nearly 30years"? (anything over 20 but less than 30, or anything over 25 but less than 35, or anything over 30 but less than 40, etc?) Rounding methods are not as limited to they typical "5 or more go up, 4 and less go down" for the rounding spot.

Any changes to the Alpha design would constitute an upgrade to the basic design though, even if they are limited to specific model/variants. Upgrades can include internal hardware, but also software, not just external changes. The Alpha design did not originally feature a Beta connection system, and with the Beta-7 concept abandoned in 2022 it is unlikely the technology stayed in place (in fact it is stated in the infopedia that updates/upgrades occurred to the Beta-9, even the RPG asserts technological advancement allowed the Beta-9 to be viable, so the Alpha would need to receive some type of upgrade in order to mate with the Beta-9).

In 2015 the Wraith project is cancelled, but it is also connected to the VFA-X-6, which has testing occur in 2015. What if the Genia lead to a viable production vehicle within the Alpha family as early as the 2015-7 period (and retired in 2020s) that the UEEF was able to use as a stop gap filler until a new version of what we would recognize as the Alpha in the 2022/40s animation that is said to be planned in 2017 (mentioned)? A scenario like that does work with "nearly 30years". Since a 15year development cycle seems out of place in RT for a Veritech (VF-1 under 10years, VHTs w/n5, AGAC w/n 10years, Logan unknown, Beta-7 2years to prototype before being cancelled, Beta-9 2-3years, I'm not aware of any dates for the: Cyclone, VF-X-4/5 and the other gaped #s like the VF-2).

Yes, which leads to people developing more effective chaff, better flares, and so on and so forth... lather, rinse, repeat.

There still has to be a need to develop more effective chaff/flares though. If the "evolutionary pressure" for the technology is not as intense in real life for the UEEF/UEDF, then guidance system technology may pull farther out ahead since improved guidance systems means they could be more accurate with their missiles, requiring fewer to be fired in a volley, and further improving the lethality of the mecha in question.

Which would be rather odd, considering Vince point-blank tells Edwards in Prelude that humanity is the technological slow child of the galaxy... of course, the absence of countermeasure dispensers on the Alpha and Beta is readily explained by the fact that nobody but humanity really uses missiles after the Zentradi go the way of the dinosaur.

But how many of the other races actually use missiles? It wasn't standard on every Zentreadi mecha, the Masters didn't even use them apparently, and the Invid only seem to have adopted them recently (RCB), and IINM the Haydonites don't use them at all. Humanity may be the overall "slow child of the galaxy", but that doesn't mean they can't have specific areas where they are ahead.

[Seto Kaiba]

What does the writer/HG intend as the method for rounding "nearly 30years"? (anything over 20 but less than 30, or anything over 25 but less than 35, or anything over 30 but less than 40, etc?) Rounding methods are not as limited to they typical "5 or more go up, 4 and less go down" for the rounding spot.

Looking at your garden variety dictionary, the use of "nearly" in that context means almost but not quite thirty years. The most you could reasonably go out in that context is perhaps +/- 5 years, if we're being generous. Saying 20 is "nearly 30" would be silly in a normal conversation... people would say you were exaggerating or being ridiculous. Saying 12 is "nearly 30" would leave people in the uncomfortable position of having to ask if you'd hit your head on something.

Any changes to the Alpha design would constitute an upgrade to the basic design though, [...]

It's not an "upgrade" to the Alpha platform if the changes are confined to one model and never disseminated to the others... that's just building a specialized variant.

The F-14A+/B is an upgrade, because improvements were made to existing aircraft as well as newly-produced aircraft. The VF-1R's an upgrade for the same reason... the improvements were not confined to newly-built aircraft. Macross's VF-1A-6 would be an upgrade because, again, the improvements were disseminated to older aircraft as well as newly built ones.

The VF-1S is not an upgrade, it's a purpose-built variant with enhancements that only it received. The VF/A-6Z is NOT an upgrade because, again, the enhancements that went into it were to help it perform one particular job better, and were not installed in any other Alpha fighter variant. You could call the VF/A-6ZX an upgrade, because that was a VF/A-6Z retrofitted with shadow tech.

Upgrades can include internal hardware, but also software, not just external changes. The Alpha design did not originally feature a Beta connection system, and with the Beta-7 concept abandoned in 2022 it is unlikely the technology stayed in place (in fact it is stated in the infopedia that updates/upgrades occurred to the Beta-9, even the RPG asserts technological advancement allowed the Beta-9 to be viable, so the Alpha would need to receive some type of upgrade in order to mate with the Beta-9).

Again, pre-production design changes in the prototype phase aren't upgrades... that's just development. The Beta was developed to connect to the Alpha while the Alpha design had not yet been finalized, and there's no evidence to support the contention that there were additional changes needed to the Alpha to dock with the completed Beta.

You're conflating development with post-production upgrades, and that fallacy will not fly.

In 2015 the Wraith project is cancelled, but it is also connected to the VFA-X-6, which has testing occur in 2015. What if the Genia lead to a viable production vehicle within the Alpha family as early as the 2015-7 period (and retired in 2020s) that the UEEF was able to use as a stop gap filler until a new version of what we would recognize as the Alpha in the 2022/40s animation that is said to be planned in 2017 (mentioned)?

We're not talking what-ifs here... we're talking what is.

The YQ-6000 Phantom prototype is not an Alpha fighter, nor is the VF-X-6 Genia. As we're talking about the RPG in this specific case, the text of the book shoots your argument down with great prejudice. The text specifically indicates that the initial Alpha design was not built, even on a trial basis, until 2020... when the first prototype began flight tests.

A scenario like that does work with "nearly 30years".

But it doesn't work with any of the evidence in either version of the Alpha's history, so it doesn't really bear considering.

But how many of the other races actually use missiles?

Now you're making my argument for me... the Alpha, Beta, Logan, AGACs, etc. don't need the countermeasure dispensers the RPG added that they don't actually have, because the only ones who use missiles after the Zentradi are gone is humanity... barring the very VERY late 3rd War introduction of a handful of Invid mecha that did.

[ShadowLogan]

Looking at your garden variety dictionary, the use of "nearly" in that context means almost but not quite thirty years. The most you could reasonably go out in that context is perhaps +/- 5 years, if we're being generous. Saying 20 is "nearly 30" would be silly in a normal conversation... people would say you were exaggerating or being ridiculous. Saying 12 is "nearly 30" would leave people in the uncomfortable position of having to ask if you'd hit your head on something.

Rounding 12 to 30 yes is in that "are you feeling okay" type of reaction. However there are different methods to round. We have no idea what the method the author uses, just because the +/-5 is common, does not mean that is what was actually used.

I would also add that Art of the Shadow Chronicles says the alpha has been "mainstay 3rd generation transformable fighter for over two decades." (pg79) This doesn't conflict with the 2E RPG either since "nearly 30years" is "nearly three decades" which qualifies as "over two decades".

It's not an "upgrade" to the Alpha platform if the changes are confined to one model and never disseminated to the others... that's just building a specialized variant.

If we want to get literal the 2E RPG doesn't say "upgrades" it says "updates", which can cover new variants. AotSC describes the -X/S as a "upgrade", the 2E RPG doesn't describe it as an upgrade though. The old infopedia didn't even consider upgrade/update, only changes between variants.

Again, pre-production design changes in the prototype phase aren't upgrades... that's just development. The Beta was developed to connect to the Alpha while the Alpha design had not yet been finalized, and there's no evidence to support the contention that there were additional changes needed to the Alpha to dock with the completed Beta.

While prototype changes aren't upgrades, they are updates to the over all design that are carried forward.

The YQ-6000 Phantom prototype is not an Alpha fighter, nor is the VF-X-6 Genia. As we're talking about the RPG in this specific case, the text of the book shoots your argument down with great prejudice. The text specifically indicates that the initial Alpha design was not built, even on a trial basis, until 2020... when the first prototype began flight tests.

Both designs are connected to the Alpha fighter, and the Genia has the same VF-# placing it squarely in the Alpha family. So if it was put into use "as is" with the "Alpha" being an updated design based on changing requirements it can work especially if the Genia and Alpha use different call names (like tomcat, eagle, falcon, hornet, super hornet, etc). It isn't like development stops with the Alpha design as we hav the -Z & -X/S, and IMHO the ability to connect with the Beta-9/7 and Fast Packs (for the Super Shadow Fighter version).

Now you're making my argument for me... the Alpha, Beta, Logan, AGACs, etc. don't need the countermeasure dispensers the RPG added that they don't actually have, because the only ones who use missiles after the Zentradi are gone is humanity... barring the very VERY late 3rd War introduction of a handful of Invid mecha that did.

Not really. We know what the Zent/Master/Invid/Haydnonites look like, but what about these "Space Pirates", or the others (as a result of colonization)?

Countermeasures hardware also falls under the heading of "common sense" things they would be expected to have.

[Seto Kaiba]

Rounding 12 to 30 yes is in that "are you feeling okay" type of reaction. However there are different methods to round.

Yes, but unless the dictionary definition of "nearly" has changed in the last five minutes, that would indicate that the RPG's core book is initially claiming the Alpha fighter has been the dominant aerospace superiority fighter of the UEEF for a little less than 30 years... which, as previously noted, is categorically impossible for an aircraft that the RPG later asserts had only been in production about 12 years, and has only existed as a design for 24.

I would also add that Art of the Shadow Chronicles says the alpha has been "mainstay 3rd generation transformable fighter for over two decades." (pg79) This doesn't conflict with the 2E RPG either since "nearly 30years" is "nearly three decades" which qualifies as "over two decades".

The "over two decades" service history of the Alpha as described in AotSC is a statement in compliance with official canon, in which the Alpha fighter was introduced in 2022 as the main fighter of the UEEF and served in that capacity for ~22 years before ending up replaced by the Shadow Fighter.

AotSC's line doesn't fit with what's said in the RPG, because (once again) it's categorically impossible for the Alpha to have been the dominant 3rd Gen VF of the UEEF for 20+ years when it has only been in production for 12-13.

The RPG's line doesn't fit with canon, or even with its own chronology... we have nothing on these alleged updates and pre-New Gen variants for one reason only: They don't exist, and they never did.

While prototype changes aren't upgrades, they are updates to the over all design that are carried forward.

But the YQ-6000 and VF-X-6 aren't Alpha fighters, and again the statement is chronologically impossible to support based on all the other statements in the book. You can't have 30 years of updates and production on a plane that's only been in production for 12!

Not really. We know what the Zent/Master/Invid/Haydnonites look like, but what about these "Space Pirates", or the others (as a result of colonization)?

Countermeasures hardware also falls under the heading of "common sense" things they would be expected to have.

Now here's a fun question... do the space pirates even really exist, or are they a UEG boogeyman being used to justify the military's budget?

Countermeasures fall under the heading of "Common sense" if and only if they're actually necessary and practical... and there's no evidence that they're either of those things after the Zentradi are out of the picture.

[ShadowLogan]

Yes, but unless the dictionary definition of "nearly" has changed in the last five minutes, that would indicate that the RPG's core book is initially claiming the Alpha fighter has been the dominant aerospace superiority fighter of the UEEF for a little less than 30 years... which, as previously noted, is categorically impossible for an aircraft that the RPG later asserts had only been in production about 12 years, and has only existed as a design for 24.

The RPG isn't the only one claiming it is the dominant aerospace fighter, the old Infopedia used the same description (w/o the time frame). The RPG asserts that it has only been in mass production for 12years, it also asserts it has been in production for several years before that.

But the YQ-6000 and VF-X-6 aren't Alpha fighters, and again the statement is chronologically impossible to support based on all the other statements in the book. You can't have 30 years of updates and production on a plane that's only been in production for 12!

I disagree. The YQ-6000 maybe, but the VF-X-6 does belong in the Alpha fighter family. The depicted design is clearly Alpha. The "Alpha Standard" might only apply to non-Genia variants since they would not have been designed with the idea of linking up with a Beta.

Now here's a fun question... do the space pirates even really exist, or are they a UEG boogeyman being used to justify the military's budget?

The exist, I don't think they qualify as boogeyman given the scene they are brought up in during "Half-Moon". Since it doesn't make any sense to discuss a boogeyman option when trying to figure out what the Masters are looking for?

Countermeasures fall under the heading of "Common sense" if and only if they're actually necessary and practical... and there's no evidence that they're either of those things after the Zentradi are out of the picture.

I'm not so sure. The UEDF would probably frown up on losing airborne mecha to a surface-air missile, either by malcontents (human, zentreadi). The UEEF probably want something as "just in case" given the variety of threats they encounter, most/some of which we know nothing about.

[Seto Kaiba]

The RPG isn't the only one claiming it is the dominant aerospace fighter, the old Infopedia used the same description (w/o the time frame).

No, the old Infopedia did cite a timeframe... which we know from their timeline is 2022-2044.

The Veritech Alpha Fighter is Earth's premier third-generation transformable fighter, serving the REF through its mission in deep space and the reclamation missions to Earth.

The RPG asserts that it has only been in mass production for 12years, it also asserts it has been in production for several years before that.

Yes, it claims small numbers of Alphas were run out in trial production for a few years before mass production began... but even if we're charitable that's not enough to make it the UEEF's premier/mainstay VF until after mass production starts. There's no getting around the fact that the RPG cites "nearly 30 years" of updates and production that can't possibly have occurred based on the RPG's own history of the Alpha fighter.

The claim just doesn't stand up under even the most cursory inspection...

I disagree. The YQ-6000 maybe, but the VF-X-6 does belong in the Alpha fighter family.

Not according to the RPG text under discussion it doesn't... it identifies the YF/A-6 prototype as a different design from the VF-X-6 altogether, and rightly so considering it says the VF-X-6 was nothing more than a manned version of the drone.

The depicted design is clearly Alpha. The "Alpha Standard" might only apply to non-Genia variants since they would not have been designed with the idea of linking up with a Beta.

As perpetually inconsistent as the Robotech RPG is, are you so sure they're even talking about the same VF-X-6 as appears in "From the Stars"?

I'm not so sure. The UEDF would probably frown up on losing airborne mecha to a surface-air missile, either by malcontents (human, zentreadi). The UEEF probably want something as "just in case" given the variety of threats they encounter, most/some of which we know nothing about.

Nobody but the UEDF/UEEF use missiles after the Zentradi are wiped out...

[Jefffar]

This is (arguably) true, though it's worth noting that the VF-1 Valkyrie's ability to return to low orbit after a sortie unassisted makes recovering fighters much less risky for the carriers, as they can skim low orbit for recovery instead of having to dive down into the stratosphere.

Based on the OSM, the depiction of the VF-1 power diving into the atmosphere while retaining hung weaponry in the reboot comic From the Stars, and later fighters designed to carry hung ordinance (read: "Conbats"), the evidence is not 100% conclusive (for Robotech), but it IS strongly in favor of the VF-1 being able to retain hung ordinance during reentry.

The Karman Line, which generally is considered the boundary between the atmosphere and space is at 100km in altitude, coincidentally the commonly cited ceiling of the Valkyrie is also 100km. Indeed, to actually orbit the earth without undue interference from atmospheric drag, one needs to be operating at an altitude of at least 130km. So to pick up the Valkyrie, the carrier is already well below orbital altitude and operating quite deep in the thermosphere.

For point of reference, the 1960's vintage LIM-49 Nike Zeus SAM/ABM missile could launch a nuclear warhead to an altitude of 280km or more. A similar missile with a more recent seeker like we see on THAAD, PAC-3 or RIM-3 Standard missiles is going to have no problem hitting a large carrier that is going low and slow enough to pick up a Valkyrie. So, recovering a Valkyrie in the face of hostile anti-spacecraft weapons is just as dangerous as recovering an Alpha.

As for atmospheric entry, ignoring non-Robotech sources, I have some questions about the other references. I don't have a complete collection of From the Stars, but I want to know which episode the re-entry with weapons occurs in I know there is a simulated re-entry in an early issue, but I'm not sure about later. If this is the incident that you are referring to? Because if it is, it is a simulation, not a real re-entry.

As for the Conbats, we know they, the Beta (and in some sources, the Alpha) were all designed to carry external ordinance. Just because the capability is there, that doesn't mean that the external ordnance is intended to be carried through an atmospheric entry. Do we have a representation of any of these craft actually entering an atmosphere with external ordnance? Indeed, do we ever see an aero-spacecraft or Veritech fighter enter an atmosphere successfully with external ordnance?

[ShadowLogan]

Yes, it claims small numbers of Alphas were run out in trial production for a few years before mass production began... but even if we're charitable that's not enough to make it the UEEF's premier/mainstay VF until after mass production starts. There's no getting around the fact that the RPG cites "nearly 30 years" of updates and production that can't possibly have occurred based on the RPG's own history of the Alpha fighter

Actually it could if the Alpha is the VF with large numbers, even after its "small numbers" in low-rate production (before mass production begins) since that is a vague quantity. There is at least a squadron's worth of Alpha's taking part in the wedding ceremony in the Sentinels OVA with a mix of types (H/I/Z by color).

And as I've said, "nearly 30years" is possible, it depends on how they do the rounding. I wouldn't rule the VF-X-6 Genia out either, it is a Veritech by all indications (VF). We know there is a shifting in requirements around the time the VF-X-6 was selected over the VF-X-4, likely requiring some updating to the design to fully meet their needs.

Nobody but the UEDF/UEEF use missiles after the Zentradi are wiped out...

On Screen you mean. The UEEF did engage in "hostilities" that rendered the Angel-class colony ships' mission as "too dangerous". The Invid don't appear until 20329-31 since UEDF command didn't know anything about them on Earth at the start of the 2RW. They can't have engaged in "hostilities" with Robotech Masters (themselves or Tyrolians as they appear in the animation) either since that would mean the UEDF on Earth should have no trouble identifying them in 2029. The show does allow for "mutant zentreadi" strains to be around.

As for the Conbats, we know they, the Beta (and in some sources, the Alpha) were all designed to carry external ordinance. Just because the capability is there, that doesn't mean that the external ordnance is intended to be carried through an atmospheric entry. Do we have a representation of any of these craft actually entering an atmosphere with external ordnance? Indeed, do we ever see an aero-spacecraft or Veritech fighter enter an atmosphere successfully with external ordnance?

The VF-1 carries its GU-11 through re-entry in FTS comic. The Alpha has to carry its belly/side mounted EU-13 (EU-15 is dorsally mounted with Shadow Fighters). The Conbat does in the Invasion comic (these are big missiles).

External ordnance will have to be designed with re-entry in mind if it's going to be on the side facing re-entry (the belly of the craft), and possibly even dorsally (here it may not be as much a big deal, the Space Shuttle has had several re-entries with tiles missing from this area, unlike missing/damaged belly tiles).

[Seto Kaiba]

The Karman Line, which generally is considered the boundary between the atmosphere and space is at 100km in altitude, coincidentally the commonly cited ceiling of the Valkyrie is also 100km.

Really? Cited by what, if you don't mind my asking?

The various Macross publications usually cite the VF-1 Valkyrie's unboosted service ceiling as being "over 100km" with specific variation depending on the in-universe example[sup]1[/sup], while the Robotech stats give its service ceiling as low Earth orbit (which, by common convention, is 160km+).

For point of reference, the 1960's vintage LIM-49 Nike Zeus SAM/ABM missile could launch a nuclear warhead to an altitude of 280km or more. A similar missile with a more recent seeker like we see on THAAD, PAC-3 or RIM-3 Standard missiles is going to have no problem hitting a large carrier that is going low and slow enough to pick up a Valkyrie. So, recovering a Valkyrie in the face of hostile anti-spacecraft weapons is just as dangerous as recovering an Alpha.

That's an argument based on a false premise if ever I saw one... at least, for Robotech. If we were talking Macross, it'd be a different story...

Who, exactly, uses surface-based missiles like that in Robotech? Not the Zentradi, whose military is entirely based around the massive space fleet that blew up in Earth orbit. Surely not the Tirolians, Invid, or Haydonites... they don't even use missiles in their respective armed forces. The only ones who do are the humans themselves, and barring rare incidents like Edwards' coup, the UEDF and UEEF aren't shooting at themselves.

A ship loitering in low orbit is not going to be facing missile fire from anyone... but loitering up there does provide protection from a threat that a ship descending further into the atmosphere has to face: flying Invid. The Invid and/or Tirolian mecha can't reach orbit under their own power... they need to be ferried up by their respective carriers. That means that a ship that enters the atmosphere to recover stranded Alpha fighters, Logans, etc. is vulnerable to attack in a way that a ship loitering in a low orbit to recover squads of Valkyries is not. (Plus the Invid carriers present a larger, advantageous target for the defenders of a ship in orbit.)

As for atmospheric entry, ignoring non-Robotech sources, I have some questions about the other references. I don't have a complete collection of From the Stars, but I want to know which episode the re-entry with weapons occurs in I know there is a simulated re-entry in an early issue, but I'm not sure about later. If this is the incident that you are referring to? Because if it is, it is a simulation, not a real re-entry.

It's not a simulation... in From the Stars, Roy doesn't just make reentry in a YF-1 with a gunpod full of HE shells hung from the ventral hull. He POWER DIVES into the atmosphere to chase a reflex missile from ARMD-1. The Conbats carry missiles down in the Invasion comic in a more traditional reentry.

As for the Conbats, we know they, the Beta (and in some sources, the Alpha) were all designed to carry external ordinance. Just because the capability is there, that doesn't mean that the external ordnance is intended to be carried through an atmospheric entry. Do we have a representation of any of these craft actually entering an atmosphere with external ordnance?

That covers the entire gambit from true to debatable to false.

The AF-03 Combat from MOSPEADA was absolutely designed to carry external ordinance... but the same cannot be said for the other two. The AB-01 TLEAD armo-bomber has one piece of art on its model sheets that shows it with hung ordinance, but the stats don't mention any wing pylons and the final art doesn't show any or even the connection points for same. The AFC-01 Legioss armo-fighter has no production art depicting it with that capability and no mention of the ability to carry any in its stats either. The ONLY place in which the Legioss was ever depicted with hung ordinance was in a few action figures.

We've seen, in Robotech, the "Conbat" make reentry with hung ordinance... but at no point in Robotech is the Alpha or Beta depicted as even possessing the capability to carry hung ordinance, let alone making reentry while doing so.

(This is why I maintain that the Beta's alleged hardpoints are nothing more or less than a sourcing error fallacy courtesy of uRRG content misrepresented as OSM.)

Actually it could if the Alpha is the VF with large numbers, even after its "small numbers" in low-rate production (before mass production begins) since that is a vague quantity. There is at least a squadron's worth of Alpha's taking part in the wedding ceremony in the Sentinels OVA with a mix of types (H/I/Z by color).

... but the text of the RPG doesn't specify VFs.

Unless a dozen or so Alphas were the only fighters the UEEF brought along, it's still a false statement.

And as I've said, "nearly 30years" is possible, it depends on how they do the rounding. I wouldn't rule the VF-X-6 Genia out either, it is a Veritech by all indications (VF). We know there is a shifting in requirements around the time the VF-X-6 was selected over the VF-X-4, likely requiring some updating to the design to fully meet their needs.

The Genia's not an Alpha though, the statement is that the ALPHA FIGHTER has been in service, receiving updates and in production for "nearly 30 years". That's impossible if the Alpha fighter did not even exist as a physical object until 2020.

On Screen you mean. The UEEF did engage in "hostilities" that rendered the Angel-class colony ships' mission as "too dangerous".

Yes... against the Invid Regent's occupation forces, per deprecated official material and the RPG.

The Invid don't develop missile technology until 2043 or so, and that's micro-ordinance only.




1. Usually depending on the VF-1 variant involved... whether it's one of the early functional prototypes, a production model wartime Block 4-6, or postwar block with improved engines.

[Jefffar]

As for the Conbats, we know they, the Beta (and in some sources, the Alpha) were all designed to carry external ordinance. Just because the capability is there, that doesn't mean that the external ordnance is intended to be carried through an atmospheric entry. Do we have a representation of any of these craft actually entering an atmosphere with external ordnance? Indeed, do we ever see an aero-spacecraft or Veritech fighter enter an atmosphere successfully with external ordnance?

The VF-1 carries its GU-11 through re-entry in FTS comic. The Alpha has to carry its belly/side mounted EU-13 (EU-15 is dorsally mounted with Shadow Fighters). The Conbat does in the Invasion comic (these are big missiles).

External ordnance will have to be designed with re-entry in mind if it's going to be on the side facing re-entry (the belly of the craft), and possibly even dorsally (here it may not be as much a big deal, the Space Shuttle has had several re-entries with tiles missing from this area, unlike missing/damaged belly tiles).

Thank you for the information. other than the Conbat we don't see missiles being used for re-entry then. Interestingly the missiles carried by the Conbat during the re-entry mission are particularly large, perhaps their design include the necessary heat shielding for re-entry survival.

Also, didn't the Alpha have the ability to dorsally carry it's standard gunpod?

Internal carriage of missiles in the Alpha and Beta series would allow missiles without the extra reinforcement to be carried into the atmosphere in far larger numbers than specifically designed missiles for re-entry carriage. It also provides aerodynamic benefits which likely translate into a better re-entry. And do be honest, the Alpha and Beta need all the aerodynamic help they can get.

For point of reference, the 1960's vintage LIM-49 Nike Zeus SAM/ABM missile could launch a nuclear warhead to an altitude of 280km or more. A similar missile with a more recent seeker like we see on THAAD, PAC-3 or RIM-3 Standard missiles is going to have no problem hitting a large carrier that is going low and slow enough to pick up a Valkyrie. So, recovering a Valkyrie in the face of hostile anti-spacecraft weapons is just as dangerous as recovering an Alpha.

That's an argument based on a false premise if ever I saw one... at least, for Robotech. If we were talking Macross, it'd be a different story...

Who, exactly, uses surface-based missiles like that in Robotech? Not the Zentradi, whose military is entirely based around the massive space fleet that blew up in Earth orbit. Surely not the Tirolians, Invid, or Haydonites... they don't even use missiles in their respective armed forces. The only ones who do are the humans themselves, and barring rare incidents like Edwards' coup, the UEDF and UEEF aren't shooting at themselves.

A ship loitering in low orbit is not going to be facing missile fire from anyone... but loitering up there does provide protection from a threat that a ship descending further into the atmosphere has to face: flying Invid. The Invid and/or Tirolian mecha can't reach orbit under their own power... they need to be ferried up by their respective carriers. That means that a ship that enters the atmosphere to recover stranded Alpha fighters, Logans, etc. is vulnerable to attack in a way that a ship loitering in a low orbit to recover squads of Valkyries is not. (Plus the Invid carriers present a larger, advantageous target for the defenders of a ship in orbit.)

I was using the Nike Hercules as an example that humans with 1960's technology can engage a carrier craft at an altitude well above what the Valkyrie can achieve. We never explore what sort of anti-spacecraft weaponry the races other than the Humans and Invid may have based on planets in the series. So there is no telling for sure what their capabilities are. They may be missile or beam weapons. They may be based in permanent structures or they may involved carrier mecha or vehicles.

However, the designers of the Alpha knew that attacking a carrier during recovery of the Vakyrie was a possibility, and that there were mecha and other combat platforms that could reach into orbit from a planet's surface. They still decided that a potential high atmosphere/sub-orbital profile for recovery of the Alpha was not a greater enough risk over the high atmosphere/low orbit profile for recovery of the Valkyrie, especially as the Alpha seems able to carry a larger useful warload during re-entry (The VF-1 is only displayed re-entering with a gunpod and the only displayed missiles for re-entry are too large for carrying more than 1 - 2 per hardpoint).

In short, the Alpha's designers knew that without a significant performance upgrade over the Valkyrie, a recovering carrier was going to be vulnerable. So instead they focused on providing the deployed forces a better capability to not make a recovery necessary (more missiles after atmospheric entry) and a deployable booster system that could link up with their forces planetside and take them to a higher orbit (the Beta).

[ShadowLogan]

... but the text of the RPG doesn't specify VFs

No, it specifies: "aerospace superiority mecha". A task for which the Cobat really isn't intended for given the Beta is supposed to take over for it. The Carpenter Fighter? We have no specs on that to use that we can agree upon for source (even the animation/dialogue doesn't really help us given its mission profile in the animation is to attack capital ships and does not engage other mecha, so it appears in a limited capacity). Neither of which doesn't count as "mecha" as RT (AotSC/HG) uses the term.

What does that leave us with?:
VF-1, sure but its not being produced any more
VF-2/3. No data on it
VF-4. It got canned supposedly (RRT has it available, that's why I say supposedly)
VF-5. Canned, its now a nt-B
VF-6. That's the Alpha, and its numbers are growing while the VF-1 (its only known competitor) is likely shrinking due to losses
VF-7. Canned.
VF-8. Overall the Alpha would be superior to it, but there are areas where it excels at
VF-9. Not around until the late 2030s, it's apparent atmospheric performance likely prevents it from taking the title
VF-10. Not available until 2029/30, and then in many respects it doesn't offer much over the stock VF-1, and in some cases less.

nt-Bs? The Condor is not up to the task of "aerospace superiority". I don't have Marines so you'll have to assess those designs.

Unless a dozen or so Alphas were the only fighters the UEEF brought along, it's still a false statement.

Here is the question though what constitutes "small numbers"? We are talking about a fleet that has ships that host 100s of VT/non-VT fighters. So a "small number" production run could still number in to the hundreds before mass production where they will need 1000s.

The Genia's not an Alpha though, the statement is that the ALPHA FIGHTER has been in service, receiving updates and in production for "nearly 30 years". That's impossible if the Alpha fighter did not even exist as a physical object until 2020.

The Genia is still part of the Alpha Family though. It is possible the writers are including development time in the 30year figure.

Yes... against the Invid Regent's occupation forces, per deprecated official material and the RPG.

The Invid don't develop missile technology until 2043 or so, and that's micro-ordinance only.

A view that is really inconsistent with the 85ep. The UEDF knew nothing of the Invid in 2029-30, so for at least 7 years the UEEF wasn't dealing with the Invid. We know that also from the series since we are told that there wasn't anyone to fight since the Invid arrived on the scene (Ep61), which would further support the notion that the "Regent"'s Invid was not encountered until post 2RW.

Also, didn't the Alpha have the ability to dorsally carry it's standard gunpod?

Yes and No. It depends where you look and what you consider valid source here. The Shadow Alpha Fighter does carry its EU-15 gunpod dorsally, the regular old EU-13 (or old GU-XX) it depends on where you look and how "valid" one considers the source. In the animation the Alpha only ever carries the EU-13/GU-XX under the wing flush with the body (pilot's right hand side, in a few instances a 2nd one is carried on the left), the 1E RPG does allow it based on line art (PB work or actual OSM stuff?) and spelled out in text (2E is silent on the multiple carriage).

I was using the Nike Hercules as an example that humans with 1960's technology can engage a carrier craft at an altitude well above what the Valkyrie can achieve.

Just for some random tidbits here. The Valkyrie/SDF-3 in ep3 is only said to achieve an orbital altitude of 100miles. That is the extent to which the Valks are shown reaching orbit from the surface of Earth under their own power. They are also retrieved almost right away.

HISTORICAL FACTS:
Freedom7 and LibertyBell-7 from Project Mercury's two manned (intended) SUB-ORBITAL flights achieved an altitude of over 100miles (according to NASA's website 116.5 and 118.3 statue miles respectively).

Soyuz-18a flight had a late stage abort resulting in sub-orbital flight, it achieved a peak altitude of 119miles.

The X-15 and Space Ship1 had Altitudes in the 60mile zone when they made their suborbital flights.

[Seto Kaiba]

Also, didn't the Alpha have the ability to dorsally carry it's standard gunpod?

Not in-series, no... there was an unused variation in the production art which included an optional dorsal missile pack that sat in the gap between the Legioss's two arm/engine blocks in armo-fighter mode which also served as a connection point for a dorsal gunpod.

Like the "first strike" missiles, the dorsal missile pack has never officially appeared in the animation... its sole official use has been on toys produced for the MOSPEADA brand in Japan.

Internal carriage of missiles in the Alpha and Beta series would allow missiles without the extra reinforcement to be carried into the atmosphere in far larger numbers than specifically designed missiles for re-entry carriage. It also provides aerodynamic benefits which likely translate into a better re-entry. And do be honest, the Alpha and Beta need all the aerodynamic help they can get.

You're assuming reinforcement is actually necessary... an unfounded assumption, in point of fact, considering Roy had no problems retaining hung weaponry while POWER-DIVING into the atmosphere at full speed.

I was using the Nike Hercules as an example that humans with 1960's technology can engage a carrier craft at an altitude well above what the Valkyrie can achieve. We never explore what sort of anti-spacecraft weaponry the races other than the Humans and Invid may have based on planets in the series. So there is no telling for sure what their capabilities are.

None of the known hostile factions to appear after the Zentradi have ever been depicted with any kind of surface-based defenses or any kind of missile technology at all... the sole exception being the Invid imitation of human mecha produced near the close of the 3rd Robotech War.

Your entire counterargument here is based around a demonstrably false premise.

In short, the Alpha's designers knew that without a significant performance upgrade over the Valkyrie, a recovering carrier was going to be vulnerable. So instead they focused on providing the deployed forces a better capability to not make a recovery necessary (more missiles after atmospheric entry) and a deployable booster system that could link up with their forces planetside and take them to a higher orbit (the Beta).

This is utterly baseless speculation on your part.

Neither of which doesn't count as "mecha" as RT (AotSC/HG) uses the term.

They don't actually define the term... which can be applied to any mobile machinery, including conventional fighters in its proper/correct usage.

What does that leave us with?:
VF-1, sure but its not being produced any more

Really now? I can't find any statement in canon or the RPG that indicates when VF-1 production ended...

Here is the question though what constitutes "small numbers"? We are talking about a fleet that has ships that host 100s of VT/non-VT fighters. So a "small number" production run could still number in to the hundreds before mass production where they will need 1000s.

Those "small numbers" were only produced for a few years before the start of mass-production in 2031... so it still doesn't make the RPG's internal continuity inconsistency any less obviously fallacious.

The Genia is still part of the Alpha Family though. It is possible the writers are including development time in the 30year figure.

No, it isn't... for what feels like the tenth or eleventh time, go back and read the statement. They claim the ALPHA FIGHTER was in production, and receiving constant updates, for "nearly 30 years" as the premier aerospace superiority fighter of the UEEF.

That cannot be true if, as it later claims, the Alpha fighter was not available as even a prototype until 2020 and mass production did not begin until 2031. It's a matter of simple arithmetic.

A view that is really inconsistent with the 85ep. The UEDF knew nothing of the Invid in 2029-30, so for at least 7 years the UEEF wasn't dealing with the Invid.

But it's a view that's explicitly stated as fact by the subsequent materials... Sentinels, Shadow Chronicles, the RPG, and so on.

In the animation the Alpha only ever carries the EU-13/GU-XX under the wing flush with the body (pilot's right hand side, in a few instances a 2nd one is carried on the left), the 1E RPG does allow it based on line art (PB work or actual OSM stuff?) and spelled out in text (2E is silent on the multiple carriage).

See the above... the Legioss only ever carries one gun pod in the series, but the production line art indicates it is possible to carry two (one on each side) or to mount a gun pod dorsally using the optional missile pod (which has only been used/shown on toys).

Just for some random tidbits here. The Valkyrie/SDF-3 in ep3 is only said to achieve an orbital altitude of 100miles. That is the extent to which the Valks are shown reaching orbit from the surface of Earth under their own power. They are also retrieved almost right away.

But is that their actual service ceiling, or just how high they got when they caught up with the SDF-1, which was deliberately keeping a low profile in the upper atmosphere instead of making for deep space? Survey says "No, it's not their service ceiling"... not in the OSM, and not in Robotech either, since the former cites "over 100km" and the latter cites "low Earth orbit".

[Jefffar]

Internal carriage of missiles in the Alpha and Beta series would allow missiles without the extra reinforcement to be carried into the atmosphere in far larger numbers than specifically designed missiles for re-entry carriage. It also provides aerodynamic benefits which likely translate into a better re-entry. And do be honest, the Alpha and Beta need all the aerodynamic help they can get.

You're assuming reinforcement is actually necessary... an unfounded assumption, in point of fact, considering Roy had no problems retaining hung weaponry while POWER-DIVING into the atmosphere at full speed.

Well, as real world physics tells us, items that are going to survive reentry need to be able to survive a certain number of stresses. Missiles suitable for carriage on fighter platforms are not built to those stresses. The GU-11 is notable for being quite ruggedly constructed (it is seen being used as a club). The attachment point for the GU-11 is also considerably thicker and more rugged than the explosive bolts typically used to hang missiles. So I can see that the GU-11 is built to take a lot more stress than most missiles are.

The large heavy missiles which are brought through reentry by the Conbat could have the necessary durability to be carried through re-entry. Their blunt nosecones are evidence that atmospheric entry is a part of their design parameters. A blunt body enters an atmosphere suffering far less stress than a pointed body.

Which brings me back to the 'POWER-DIVING'. As I mentioned, a blunt body suffers far less stress during entry than a pointed body. Rick's atmospheric entry in the cartoon is the right posture for the Valkyrie to enter the atmosphere, using the comparatively flat undersurface to create a cushion of air between the Valkyrie and the shockwave developed during entry. A nose first attitude is going to subject the Valkyrie to far greater stress than the belly first attitude.

So, Fokker's entry is either a technically flawed depiction of an entry, or is highly dramatized. Either case limits its value in this discussion. The GU-11 is ruggedly built and has a very strong attachment point compared to a missile, it is certainly plausible that it can survive a re-entry that a missile can't. Fokers approach is so reckless, and the circumstances so dramatic, as to imply that this was an emergency manoeuvre, probably outside of the the design capabilities of the craft, and Fokker is lucky that he didn't sevrely damage the aircraft or crash.

I was using the Nike Hercules as an example that humans with 1960's technology can engage a carrier craft at an altitude well above what the Valkyrie can achieve. We never explore what sort of anti-spacecraft weaponry the races other than the Humans and Invid may have based on planets in the series. So there is no telling for sure what their capabilities are.

None of the known hostile factions to appear after the Zentradi have ever been depicted with any kind of surface-based defenses or any kind of missile technology at all... the sole exception being the Invid imitation of human mecha produced near the close of the 3rd Robotech War.

Your entire counterargument here is based around a demonstrably false premise.

Except that the designers of the Valkyrie and the Alpha don't know this. Time and again in the series we see the humans are caught off guard by the capabilities of their alien opponents. Further, the surface based systems of the Invid, did manage to disrupt multiple waves of human strike forces, even when the human forces kept their carriers at stand off range. Further, we don't get to see what the Tyrolians actually use when defending one of their planets. Finally, not all the Zentraedi were destroyed at Earth, so it was certainly plausible that Zentraedi missiles and guns may be defending a planet the UEEF was going to attack.

The designers of the mecha and their carriers knew that it was possible for a planetary defence system to engage the carriers above the altitude at which the Valkyrie could be recovered. There are ways to compensate for this, and the option chosen by the designers of the Alpha is to improve the offensive punch of the strike wing that has to deal with those defences.

In short, the Alpha's designers knew that without a significant performance upgrade over the Valkyrie, a recovering carrier was going to be vulnerable. So instead they focused on providing the deployed forces a better capability to not make a recovery necessary (more missiles after atmospheric entry) and a deployable booster system that could link up with their forces planetside and take them to a higher orbit (the Beta).

This is utterly baseless speculation on your part.

No more baseless than the speculation that the Tirolians have no planetary defence systems and that the designers of the Alpha knew this.

[Jefffar]

Sorry for the Double Post, but I just got a look at the scene in question and have some comments on what I've seen.

First, it is a high stakes situation and Roy, being the hero, is pushing himself and his aircraft to its limit to try to save the day.

Second, as noted, there are no missiles on the wings. There are FAST packs and the GU-11 at the start of the flight. None of these things are seen on the Valkyrie when it reaches the ground however. So it is possible that they had to be shed to complete the entry.

Third, the entry trajectory starts off relatively shallow, far from a power dive. We don't get to see how far down into the atmosphere Roy has to chase the missile either. So it is possible that the interception occurred in the upper atmosphere allowing Roy to transition to a more normal entry attitude.

Fourth, the technicians on the ground indicate that Roy's Valkyrie is so badly damaged that they think the aircraft needs to be retired. Given the number of crash trucks around the landing site, it's likely that Roy had to declare an emergency landing.

Fifth, it is pointed out this is a prototype, so its capabilities may be different to the actual production model Valkyrie.

So, overall, from the comic we can conclude that Roy Fokker is a heck of a pilot, but we have no definitive indications that the standard production version of the Valkyrie can complete a successful atmospheric entry with external ordnance.

So, the number of human craft known to carry a missile load through atmospheric entry currently stands at the Alpha, the Beta and the Conbat.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, as real world physics tells us, items that are going to survive reentry need to be able to survive a certain number of stresses. Missiles suitable for carriage on fighter platforms are not built to those stresses.

Another false premise... you're not accounting for material improvements that made the bloody robots possible in the first place.

The GU-11 is notable for being quite ruggedly constructed (it is seen being used as a club). The attachment point for the GU-11 is also considerably thicker and more rugged than the explosive bolts typically used to hang missiles. So I can see that the GU-11 is built to take a lot more stress than most missiles are.

Two problems with this assertion... above and beyond the fact that it's based on a false premise.

The first is you're incorrectly assuming the VF-1's missiles are retained by explosive bolts... even the RPG book reprints production line art (on pg68, manga size) which shows that is not the case.

The second is that you're forgetting that these pylons, their multiple ejector racks, etc. are stressed for the absolutely redonkulous amounts of stress they'll be subjected to in the course of normal VF operations. They have to be able to safely retain ordinance in cases where they're subjected to double-digit g-forces or subjected to three thousand kilonewtons of the instantaneous acceleration forces a fully kitted-out VF-1 could experience, or both at once!

We're talking about a system that is literal orders of magnitude more rugged and durable than today's technology... a great many orders, if you care about the OSM's quantification of material strength.

The large heavy missiles which are brought through reentry by the Conbat could have the necessary durability to be carried through re-entry. Their blunt nosecones are evidence that atmospheric entry is a part of their design parameters. A blunt body enters an atmosphere suffering far less stress than a pointed body.

You say that like a blunt body isn't a design feature of almost every missile in Robotech.

Seriously, I think the only odds ones out in that assortment are the fire suppression missile from the Macross Saga and the Logan's very narrow missile. Everything else is either internally carried, fits the profile, or (often) both.

Which brings me back to the 'POWER-DIVING'. As I mentioned, a blunt body suffers far less stress during entry than a pointed body. Rick's atmospheric entry in the cartoon is the right posture for the Valkyrie to enter the atmosphere, using the comparatively flat undersurface to create a cushion of air between the Valkyrie and the shockwave developed during entry. A nose first attitude is going to subject the Valkyrie to far greater stress than the belly first attitude.

Yes... and if the VF-1 has no issues retaining hung weaponry in the MORE stressful of the two approaches, the lesser will pose little difficulty.

So, Fokker's entry is either a technically flawed depiction of an entry, or is highly dramatized.

Or... and bear with me here... he could have been chasing a reflex warhead-equipped missile destined for Macross Island, intent on catching it before it repeated the kaboom that wiped Antarctic Base off the map.

It's not flawed, and it's not a case of a post-facto dramatization of the events, it's an in extremis case and a demonstrated capability of the YF-1 prototype from that comic.

The GU-11 is ruggedly built and has a very strong attachment point compared to a missile, it is certainly plausible that it can survive a re-entry that a missile can't.

Your basis for this is...?

The production art shows the GU-11's connection point is actually quite small... the retaining bracket is barely the size of the ejector port, and that's all that's really holding that gun pod on there.

and Fokker is lucky that he didn't sevrely damage the aircraft or crash.

Yet the fighter in question comes through just fine and was the single longest-serving VF-1 in the entire UEDF inventory when it was retired in 2015... this line of reasoning is turning out to be painfully short on actual supporting evidence.

Except that the designers of the Valkyrie and the Alpha don't know this. Time and again in the series we see the humans are caught off guard by the capabilities of their alien opponents.

True, but their experiences in the Sentinels campaign would swiftly prove that they would be completely right to assume that there would be no orbital defenses. The Invid didn't even have the ability to shoot back for most of the time they were at war with UEEF troops... their defense was nothing more than sheer weight of numbers and kamikaze attacks.

Further, the surface based systems of the Invid, did manage to disrupt multiple waves of human strike forces, even when the human forces kept their carriers at stand off range.

See the above reasons why... it has NOTHING to do with the nonexistent anti-orbit weaponry.

When 1 or 2 kamikaze attacks can take out a whole carrier, it's best to keep a distance from an enemy has tens of thousands of troops it views as utterly expendable.

Further, we don't get to see what the Tyrolians actually use when defending one of their planets. Finally, not all the Zentraedi were destroyed at Earth, so it was certainly plausible that Zentraedi missiles and guns may be defending a planet the UEEF was going to attack.

The Zentradi are a fleet-based entity in Robotech (and the OSM), so them defending a planet from the surface is a profoundly unlikely prospect... and Breetai and Exedore would've been able to tell the United Earth Forces as much.

The Tirolians, well, in a lucky break they don't use missiles and they had no orbital defenses to speak of.

The designers of the mecha and their carriers knew that it was possible for a planetary defence system to engage the carriers above the altitude at which the Valkyrie could be recovered. There are ways to compensate for this, and the option chosen by the designers of the Alpha is to improve the offensive punch of the strike wing that has to deal with those defences.

Again, this is a completely baseless assertion built on a string of demonstrably false premises... and, of course, you're also omitting that the canon Robotech stats give the VF-1 the ability to carry a comparable number of missiles to the Alpha. (Technically, it could carry 3x as many if the UUM-7's were adapted for the Alpha's shorter, but comparable-diameter ordinance.)

This capability was such a deal-breaker for the Alpha that the RPG had to NERF the VF-1's MLOPs from the SRMs the canon says they are to the level of "mini-missiles" so people wouldn't just run VF-1's in every saga.

No more baseless than the speculation that the Tirolians have no planetary defence systems and that the designers of the Alpha knew this.

In both Sentinels and the RPG, the UEEF knew an awful lot about the Tirolians... including exactly where their planet was, so it isn't at all unreasonable they would have had at least a vague idea of its defenses.

So, no... I've got a pretty solid factual basis for my stance.

[Seto Kaiba]

First, it is a high stakes situation and Roy, being the hero, is pushing himself and his aircraft to its limit to try to save the day.

That doesn't diminish the demonstrated capability.

Second, as noted, there are no missiles on the wings. There are FAST packs and the GU-11 at the start of the flight. None of these things are seen on the Valkyrie when it reaches the ground however. So it is possible that they had to be shed to complete the entry.

Correction... the FAST packs are ejected, but your claim that the GU-11 is not present cannot be substantiated... we don't see the fighter from any view other than top-down or nose-on from a great distance, so there is no basis for saying the GU-11 was lost in reentry.

Third, the entry trajectory starts off relatively shallow, far from a power dive. We don't get to see how far down into the atmosphere Roy has to chase the missile either. So it is possible that the interception occurred in the upper atmosphere allowing Roy to transition to a more normal entry attitude.

It's a descending flight path and he's accelerating into it at full throttle... that's a power dive by definition.

Second, we see the explosion in the cloud layer, so it was likely quite low.

Fourth, the technicians on the ground indicate that Roy's Valkyrie is so badly damaged that they think the aircraft needs to be retired. Given the number of crash trucks around the landing site, it's likely that Roy had to declare an emergency landing.

Apparently hyperbole, considering the lack of visible damage beyond some blackening of the paint and its impressive subsequent service history.

Fifth, it is pointed out this is a prototype, so its capabilities may be different to the actual production model Valkyrie.

It's a prototype all right, but as we're told point-blank it goes on to become Roy's VF-1S there is no evidence whatsoever to back up an assertion that its capabilities in any way exceed a production-model craft.

[ShadowLogan]

They don't actually define the term... which can be applied to any mobile machinery, including conventional fighters in its proper/correct usage.

Actually they do. For RT it is much more restricted.

Art of the Shadow Chronicles. Its in the glossary of terms section. It is also in the "encylopedia" section of RT.com's Infopedia before that part of the site went belly up. It says: "A colloquial term for a combat or utility vehicle that is articulated with large-scale robotic or bioengineered limbs which can be directed by the actions of the pilot." The RPG does define the term itself to, but a bit more broadly IIRC. Still "robotic or bioengineered limbs" would rule out non-transformable vehicles (like the Conbat).

Really now? I can't find any statement in canon or the RPG that indicates when VF-1 production ended...

They also went through a SLEP to produce the -1R, that doesn't indicate new production. A design does not have to be in production to be used, all 3 of the US heavy bombers have been out of production for over a decade, the F-22 is now out of production. The A-10 is out of production.

Those "small numbers" were only produced for a few years before the start of mass-production in 2031... so it still doesn't make the RPG's internal continuity inconsistency any less obviously fallacious.

Not "few years", "several years" (more than 2 but less than "many"), but the production could also be spread out as there is no reason they have to have continuous production (though that is ideal form several perspectives).

That cannot be true if, as it later claims, the Alpha fighter was not available as even a prototype until 2020 and mass production did not begin until 2031. It's a matter of simple arithmetic.

It can if the Genia is only regarded as part of the Alpha Fighter family and the nearly 30year statement is discussing all members of the Alpha Fighter family not just what is regarded as the Alpha Fighter. The Alpha Fighter is a FORK of the Genia design, but they are in the "family" (to use a Linux analogy, Genia is Debian and the Alpha is Ubuntu which is a direct fork from Debian which has its own forks, but all those forks are essentially based on Debian and in the "debian" family.).

But it's a view that's explicitly stated as fact by the subsequent materials... Sentinels, Shadow Chronicles, the RPG, and so on.

Regardless it is in direct conflict with the series. Sentinels itself introduces lots of inconsitencies to RT. TSC isn't much better.

See the above... the Legioss only ever carries one gun pod in the series, but the production line art indicates it is possible to carry two (one on each side) or to mount a gun pod dorsally using the optional missile pod (which has only been used/shown on toys).

No actually it is actually depicted carrying TWO gunpods in the series. "Hired Gun" (VFA-6I/Z, I even fires from the second gunpod in F mode, though when the transform to battloid the second gunpod isn't there, and the Z does a double tap w/both before assuming battloid mode though only shows one), "Birthday Blues" (VFA-6H during the Alpha airshow), so it has appeared in the show at least twice.

But is that their actual service ceiling, or just how high they got when they caught up with the SDF-1, which was deliberately keeping a low profile in the upper atmosphere instead of making for deep space? Survey says "No, it's not their service ceiling"... not in the OSM, and not in Robotech either, since the former cites "over 100km" and the latter cites "low Earth orbit"

Based on the series, their service ceiling could be said to be 100miles since they are recovered in short order. A ~100mile altitude limit does not conflict with either statements though. 100km is less than 100miles/160km (no conflict), and LEO is a vague term. Just because you can reach 100mile altitude in LEO does not mean you can cover the full range of LEO possibilities (that is why I've said we need delta-v figures for a known profile, or the proper numbers to get it).

[Seto Kaiba]

Really now? I can't find any statement in canon or the RPG that indicates when VF-1 production ended...

They also went through a SLEP to produce the -1R, that doesn't indicate new production. A design does not have to be in production to be used, all 3 of the US heavy bombers have been out of production for over a decade, the F-22 is now out of production. The A-10 is out of production.

As a correction/clarification, it's only described as a service life extension program in the RPG... so you can't draw that conclusion in Robotech proper. Canon stats only present it as a modernization/refit intended to improve overall survivability.

Not "few years", "several years" (more than 2 but less than "many"), but the production could also be spread out as there is no reason they have to have continuous production (though that is ideal form several perspectives).

Either way, we're talking about low-volume trial production for a handful of years... it's not enough to make up the gap between the 12 years of actual mass production and the 30 claimed at the start of the entry.

It can if the Genia is only regarded as part of the Alpha Fighter family [...]

They don't talk about the Alpha fighter "family"... the remark is specific to the Alpha fighter itself, and does not work based on the dates provided in the RPG or in canon.

Regardless it is in direct conflict with the series. Sentinels itself introduces lots of inconsitencies to RT. TSC isn't much better.

Yes, but that hasn't stopped them from overriding the series with that material when and where they deem it necessary... so, while eminently true, the objection is not necessarily valid.

Based on the series, their service ceiling could be said to be 100miles since they are recovered in short order. A ~100mile altitude limit does not conflict with either statements though. 100km is less than 100miles/160km (no conflict), and LEO is a vague term.

Low Earth orbit is not a vague term, it's a range... the series does not state that the VF-1s in question are at their service ceiling at the time they're recovered. There is no reason, let alone a compelling reason, to assume that the VF-1 cannot ascend past 160km based on the official text or the show.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The show kinda answered this whole topic already... No VF-1's after episode 36... something better came along and it got replaced.

[Kagashi]

The show kinda answered this whole topic already... No VF-1's after episode 36... something better came along and it got replaced.

Not really. VF-1s left with the Pioneer Mission in 2022, eight years after episode 36, and were used for years after that until the Alpha was in full production.

[ShadowLogan]

As a correction/clarification, it's only described as a service life extension program in the RPG... so you can't draw that conclusion in Robotech proper. Canon stats only present it as a modernization/refit intended to improve overall survivability.

Actually the infopedia version makes it clear they aren't producing new ones:
"program was initiated in 2014 to improve the survivability of the Robotech Defense Force's few remaining VF-1A and VF-1J fighters while the next-generation Advanced Veritech Fighter was in development."-VF-1R entry RT.com Infopedia (via Wayback Machine, 2015 before the site went down).

Notice how they say "few remaining", that implies they are not being produced and are making do with the numbers already produced. That the -1A and -1J are being updated involves a certain level of manufacturing, but that is not the same as producing an entirely new unit. So the Infoepdiea and RPG are in agreement that the VF-1 production run had ended before 2014 with the -1R.

Either way, we're talking about low-volume trial production for a handful of years... it's not enough to make up the gap between the 12 years of actual mass production and the 30 claimed at the start of the entry.

I agree it is "low volume" and "handful of years", but those are vague terms. We are talking about a mecha that is implied to have been produced to support a need for 1000s in one form or another in the 2040s, so "low volume" can still be in the low 100s each year.

We can say 1000s in the 2040s, given the SDF-4 (per Genesis Pits) had a count of ~800 Alphas, each Ikazuchi-class has a count of 144 minimum (HG's ~400 extra in the mix and the number can be potentially higher), then each Garfish has 15 in the carrier config (standard, this is the stock ship in the animation), the SDF-3 is probably the similar to the SDF-4, and the Tokagawa-class can host a mix of ~1000fighters (Grant IIRC some are Alphas, Betas, and a small handful are Bioroids in addition to the Horizons).

They don't talk about the Alpha fighter "family"... the remark is specific to the Alpha fighter itself, and does not work based on the dates provided in the RPG or in canon.

Do they call it a "family"? No, even I will admit that term is not used specifically. However we know there are at least 4 different versions of the Alpha fighter, so "family" IMHO is implied since they don't say anything about how long the -6H/I/Z have been around only that they are the current major versions leaving room for "retired" and "minor" versions to be around in the 2E RPG.

Yes, but that hasn't stopped them from overriding the series with that material when and where they deem it necessary... so, while eminently true, the objection is not necessarily valid.

I agree it hasn't stopped them, but I don't think it was necessary. They could easily have just replaced the Regent's Invid with another alien race and avoided the Beta fighter issue entirely for Sentinels.

Low Earth orbit is not a vague term, it's a range... the series does not state that the VF-1s in question are at their service ceiling at the time they're recovered. There is no reason, let alone a compelling reason, to assume that the VF-1 cannot ascend past 160km based on the official text or the show.

You are correct that it covers a range, but that is precisely why I say it is a vague term. Saying something has LEO capability does not mean that it can cover the entire LEO range equally since you have to factor altitude and inclination (which would also cover retro-grade orbits which are much more energy intensive to achieve) which does result in it being a vague term.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The show kinda answered this whole topic already... No VF-1's after episode 36... something better came along and it got replaced.

Not really. VF-1s left with the Pioneer Mission in 2022, eight years after episode 36, and were used for years after that until the Alpha was in full production.

What episode of the show do these event take place? I see the Pioneer mission returns to assist the Earth against the Robotech Masters in "Outsiders" but they don't have any of the VF-1's... Again they return at another point in the 2nd arc and are armed with a model of the Ajax. I don't recall a VF-1 showing up after episode 36.
If you're using the "Marines" book, take in to account that the Author failed at his job of putting out a coherent product with any valid information in it. his time-line is flawed, his fluff text is all highly contradictory. At best this book is on the level of a Bad Geocities fan-page in terms of writing quality... at best. This book also effectively removes the RPG as a canon source for any discussion concerning the Show's story-line as is shows HG has been rubber stamping the RPG's fluff text since day one, or as Tommy Quoted to me recently "The RPG is Official, but not canon"
The canon WildStorm comics place the VF-1 falling out of use in 2014, with competing designs in full testing, with Rick testing a VF-4 that is combat-ready.

[ShadowLogan]

@Wolfe
The VF-1 appears in use during the Sentinels OVA (legacy version, the most recent version I have) for the wedding ceremony "air show". Kagashi could be referencing that, not everyone goes out and buys the most recent re-hash releases (what are they at now 3 or 4 since Legacy?) which I've heard has the OVA edited down at some point. Its strictly recycled animation from "Wedding Bells", but appears to be part of the ceremony.

[Kagashi]

The show kinda answered this whole topic already... No VF-1's after episode 36... something better came along and it got replaced.

Not really. VF-1s left with the Pioneer Mission in 2022, eight years after episode 36, and were used for years after that until the Alpha was in full production.

What episode of the show do these event take place? I see the Pioneer mission returns to assist the Earth against the Robotech Masters in "Outsiders" but they don't have any of the VF-1's... Again they return at another point in the 2nd arc and are armed with a model of the Ajax. I don't recall a VF-1 showing up after episode 36.
If you're using the "Marines" book, take in to account that the Author failed at his job of putting out a coherent product with any valid information in it. his time-line is flawed, his fluff text is all highly contradictory. At best this book is on the level of a Bad Geocities fan-page in terms of writing quality... at best. This book also effectively removes the RPG as a canon source for any discussion concerning the Show's story-line as is shows HG has been rubber stamping the RPG's fluff text since day one, or as Tommy Quoted to me recently "The RPG is Official, but not canon"
The canon WildStorm comics place the VF-1 falling out of use in 2014, with competing designs in full testing, with Rick testing a VF-4 that is combat-ready.

Oh god no, not using Marines as a source. My source is from the Robotech.com official timeline from the old site. The new site does not have the timeline reposted, so until they do post it on the new site, the old sites official timeline is the best we have. You can still find the old website on archived sites.

If you recall, when Rick uses the VF-4 against the Zentraedi controlled Monsters, he was saving VF-1's from ambush.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually the infopedia version makes it clear they aren't producing new ones:
"program was initiated in 2014 to improve the survivability of the Robotech Defense Force's few remaining VF-1A and VF-1J fighters while the next-generation Advanced Veritech Fighter was in development."-VF-1R entry RT.com Infopedia (via Wayback Machine, 2015 before the site went down).

That doesn't rule out new production of other variants besides the -A and -J.

I agree it is "low volume" and "handful of years", but those are vague terms. We are talking about a mecha that is implied to have been produced to support a need for 1000s in one form or another in the 2040s, so "low volume" can still be in the low 100s each year.

Yes, but we're told point-blank in the RPG's account that mass production did not begin until 2031... which means the low rate initial production models being used for a few years beforehand were not produced in numbers significant enough to be considered actual introduction of the fighter on a production basis. That makes it highly doubtful that the Alpha fighter was produced in numbers that would be significant enough to fully outfit a ship. Perhaps a couple dozen new planes a year, spread out throughout the fleet for its pre-production field testing, not hundreds or thousands.

It still wouldn't meet the precondition for being the mainstay/premier aerospace superiority mecha of the UEEF until such time as it was deployed in large enough numbers to be the dominant platform, so the timing STILL doesn't work out for the initial claim to be true.

Do they call it a "family"? No, even I will admit that term is not used specifically. However we know there are at least 4 different versions of the Alpha fighter, so "family" IMHO is implied since they don't say anything about how long the -6H/I/Z have been around only that they are the current major versions leaving room for "retired" and "minor" versions to be around in the 2E RPG.

There is nothing to support that contention in canon... and the RPG's remarks alleging "nearly thirty years" of updates and continuous production are categorically impossible for a plane that was only in production for twelve years.

I agree it hasn't stopped them, but I don't think it was necessary. They could easily have just replaced the Regent's Invid with another alien race and avoided the Beta fighter issue entirely for Sentinels.

But they didn't, so the point is moot.

Oh god no, not using Marines as a source. My source is from the Robotech.com official timeline from the old site. The new site does not have the timeline reposted, so until they do post it on the new site, the old sites official timeline is the best we have. You can still find the old website on archived sites.

If you recall, when Rick uses the VF-4 against the Zentraedi controlled Monsters, he was saving VF-1's from ambush.

It's also worth noting that the Sentinels comics that form the basis of Prelude showed the UEEF using the VF-1's in high numbers right up to Edwards' betrayal (now established to have occurred in 2043), so the Marines book isn't actually that far off-base about the continued VF-1 usage.

[Colonel Wolfe]

If you recall, when Rick uses the VF-4 against the Zentraedi controlled Monsters, he was saving VF-1's from ambush.

this is 7-8 years before they Pioneer missions leaves. In the final panel you see they are testing something Tommy Says is the VF-6/Genia/Alpha... Development for the VF-1 took less than 7 years using completely alien technology. The VF-1 could continue to be refurbished and had more parts bolted on to keep it serviceable forever (that's basically the Idea they used in Japan's version of Robotech).

[ShadowLogan]

That doesn't rule out new production of other variants besides the -A and -J.

In a way it does. Why go through the trouble of a SLEP or remanufacturing the -A/J to the -R standard, when you could just produce a new variant and avoid the hassle of the SLEP or remanufacturing the -A/J.

which means the low rate initial production models being used for a few years beforehand were not produced in numbers significant enough to be considered actual introduction of the fighter on a production basis.

I agree from a production standpoint this is the case, but from an operations standpoint the RPG points to the mecha has been around for nearly 3 decades as the premier mecha in one form or another, that means that operationally the Alpha was considered "introduced" to service long before it entered mass production. And the show itself supports the idea the Alpha is "old" given that Denver's toystore had Alpha toy/kits among its inventory, which was evacuated a day before the Invid Invasion.

Remember the low-rate production doesn't have to fully staff a ship (or the mission/fleet), all that it requires is the Alpha to be the most prolific aerospace mecha in the UEEF/Pioneer Mission inventory even in that production state. We know that conventional fighters are part of the UEEF/Pioneer Mission, but those aren't mecha as HG defines them. That means the UEEF/Pioneer could be using its Veritech Fighters as a sort of "silver bullet" force. In which case the Alpha even in low-rate numbers might be the most prolific available. It should also be noted that prior to the 21st MD, Veritechs do not appear to make up the bulk of the UEEF aerospace wings when we see them (Carpenter, 10th MD) so VFs may not have gained the raw numbers in the inventory until around 10th MD (who are trained Alpha pilots, w/o Alphas) and overtook the conventional fighters. We are after all looking at the UEEF in the 2040s, but its been around for decades and canon depictions in previous periods does not seem to line up with the 2040s.

There is nothing to support that contention in canon... and the RPG's remarks alleging "nearly thirty years" of updates and continuous production are categorically impossible for a plane that was only in production for twelve years.

I disagree here. It is how one wants to look at it. The Alpha design is clearly nearly 30years old, and it has under gone revisions and updates in that time. Testing and evaluations require examples to be produced, they might be in tiny lots but they are going to exist as production examples. So from certain POVs it can be made to work.

[Seto Kaiba]

That doesn't rule out new production of other variants besides the -A and -J.

In a way it does. Why go through the trouble of a SLEP or remanufacturing the -A/J to the -R standard, when you could just produce a new variant and avoid the hassle of the SLEP or remanufacturing the -A/J.

Resource shortages due to the post-apocalyptic nature of the setting, the development of the UEEF, etc. would justify it handily... in the case of the official setting, the old World War II maxim of "Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without" would seem to be a very practical school of thought in the absence of a huge, well-established military-industrial infrastructure. (It'd also explain why there are no earlier Alpha variants in canon... the H/I type was what they had to work with, and there was simply no pressing need to divert resources from keeping the troops supplied to develop improvements.)

I agree from a production standpoint this is the case, but from an operations standpoint the RPG points to the mecha has been around for nearly 3 decades as the premier mecha in one form or another, that means that operationally the Alpha was considered "introduced" to service long before it entered mass production.

From any standpoint, the RPG's claim doesn't hold water because it contradicts itself on the very next page! It can't have been the UEEF's premier aerospace fighter before it was ever developed or built. You're not going to get around that little fact.

And the show itself supports the idea the Alpha is "old" given that Denver's toystore had Alpha toy/kits among its inventory, which was evacuated a day before the Invid Invasion.

It supports the idea that, like the real world, model kit companies don't wait until a fighter has been deployed in large numbers to go about the business of making model kits of it. Nothing more, nothing less.

(Of course, you're attempting to conflate canon with the contradictory and non-canon account in the RPG... there's no problem with the model kit's presence in canon, since the Alpha fighter would've been in front-line service for almost a decade by that point.)

[ShadowLogan]

Resource shortages due to the post-apocalyptic nature of the setting, the development of the UEEF, etc. would justify it handily... in the case of the official setting, the old World War II maxim of "Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without" would seem to be a very practical school of thought in the absence of a huge, well-established military-industrial infrastructure. (It'd also explain why there are no earlier Alpha variants in canon... the H/I type was what they had to work with, and there was simply no pressing need to divert resources from keeping the troops supplied to develop improvements.)

In 2012-3 maybe, but they apparently have enough infrastructure built up to consider development of new mecha (VF-X-4/6, SF-5 Conbat is "old" for the VF-X-7, VHT-1/2 enters service around this time) by 2014-5 period, not to mention the finished construction of Carpenter's Tokagawa (15year home, which is basically 15years after ep36). So the entire notion of resource shortages and infrastructure seems to crumble under the sheer weight of "new" stuff coming out. The VF-1R is also supposed to use technology that went into the VFA-6 (Infopedia), but the program itself is from 2014 (and the VF-1R appears before this period).

From any standpoint, the RPG's claim doesn't hold water because it contradicts itself on the very next page! It can't have been the UEEF's premier aerospace fighter before it was ever developed or built. You're not going to get around that little fact.

Unless the development period is included in the figure. The UEEF could have pressed the "development" articles into use without full testing. We know they did that with the Shadow Fighter (trojan horse) and the Super Shadow Fighter (essentially, it wasn't completed given certain systems had yet to be installed) variants in the mid 2040s not to mention the Neutron-S missiles. So there is some precedent for them to have done this with the Alpha fighter. It took them 3years to even come to the conclusion that the Alpha needed a Beta fighter, something that should have been obvious from the get go. Something had to have been going on for them to reassess the Alpha's abilities, and actual use seems as good an explanation as any.

It supports the idea that, like the real world, model kit companies don't wait until a fighter has been deployed in large numbers to go about the business of making model kits of it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I agree with this viewpoint, but we have no way to be sure that is the actual case. Was it a toy jumping the gun on the concept, or was it because it was in production. The show doesn't tell us anything to determine this.

since the Alpha fighter would've been in front-line service for almost a decade by that point.)

That however doesn't require it to enter mass production, only be in service. We don't even know what "small numbers over several years" and "mass production" numbers actually look like, we can speculate on both and have a pretty good idea of "mass production" even, but not "small numbers". Consider the B-2 bomber, only 20 something units produced compared to the B-52 (hundreds) or B-1B (~100 IINM), or even WW2-era heavy bombers (B-29 production numbered into the 1000s). What about the F-4A PhantomII vs overall F-4 PhantomII production numbers (or even other fighter/attack craft with multiple model/block types) of 45 vs 5000+ built overall? Or even various standards for the F-16 (Block/Model) where the Block 1 had 43 aircraft out of the 2000+ built (per FAS.org's outdated F-16 page), only the Block 32/52 has so few numbers with other blocks getting 100+ So it is quite possible these early Alphas don't have the raw numbers we see with the later -H/I/S/X or implied with the -Z standard, but where still around as front-line service.

[Seto Kaiba]

In 2012-3 maybe, but they apparently have enough infrastructure built up to consider development of new mecha (VF-X-4/6, SF-5 Conbat is "old" for the VF-X-7, VHT-1/2 enters service around this time) by 2014-5 period, not to mention the finished construction of Carpenter's Tokagawa (15year home, which is basically 15years after ep36). So the entire notion of resource shortages and infrastructure seems to crumble under the sheer weight of "new" stuff coming out.

Not really, no... especially in the RPG, a lot of the "new" stuff coming out is acknowledged to be somewhat substandard due to the limited resources available. In particular, this is attributed to the vast majority of resources going to the Expeditionary Force arms buildup. The various UEDF mecha of the 2nd Robotech War in particular are noted to have been developed on the cheap, with very limited resources.

It doesn't have to be a general, across-the-board resource shortage... just a case of too many demands being made on the limited resources available.

The VF-1R is also supposed to use technology that went into the VFA-6 (Infopedia), but the program itself is from 2014 (and the VF-1R appears before this period).

That claim doesn't tally with the RPG's brief description of the VF-1R, or the Infopedia's... your source, please?

Unless the development period is included in the figure. The UEEF could have pressed the "development" articles into use without full testing.

But it isn't... they clearly say the Alpha fighter itself has been in service and production for nearly 30 years, which doesn't fit into the timeline given on the following pages. They don't include the prototypes in that statement either. It is simply fallacious. Nothing more, nothing less.

I agree with this viewpoint, but we have no way to be sure that is the actual case. Was it a toy jumping the gun on the concept, or was it because it was in production. The show doesn't tell us anything to determine this.

The "original 85" might not, but the broader official Robotech canon does.

The VF/A-6 Alpha fighter in the canon Robotech universe had been in service as the UEEF's main VF since the Pioneer Mission launched in 2022, which means that it had been in service for nine years at the time the Invid invaded.

The RPG is not canon, of course, and does its own thing... but even its timeline does not contradict the presence of a model kit for Alpha fighters being commercially available because you can always count on model kit manufacturers to have a kit ready for new fighter aircraft within months of their existence being made public. If the Alpha was in prototype testing starting from 2020, that'd mean they had 11 years to knock out a model kit.

This doesn't support your argument even slightly.

[glitterboy2098]

actually 'small numbers over severla years" has an official term. it's called Low Rate Initial Production

basically while using mass production methods, they build them in small numbers at a time. giving the buyer a chance to work out the finer details of design refinement and tactical doctrines, while the manufacturer works out how to get mass production to the most efficient form.

examples of LRIP'd vehicles include the V-22 osprey, F-22 Raptor, the F-35 Lighting II, KC-46 Tanker, the P-8A, Littorial Combat Ship, the M-25 CDTE grenade launcher, Joint Light Tactical Vehicle, the planned Armored Multi-Purpose Vehicle, etc.

[ShadowLogan]

It doesn't have to be a general, across-the-board resource shortage... just a case of too many demands being made on the limited resources available.

In a way it does though since the UEEF/UEDF could shift resources around for production. That they did not points to the VF-1 being out of new production and it being to costly to invest in a new production line.

That claim doesn't tally with the RPG's brief description of the VF-1R, or the Infopedia's... your source, please?

My bad it is not in the latest Infopedia available. It is however in the RPG Macross SB pg55m "A later variant, the VF-1R, was designed as a Service Life Extension Program for the VF-1A, and introduced weapon systems and avionics that would be seen on the next generation VF/A-6 Alpha." (I'm omitting the italic and bold formating).

But it isn't... they clearly say the Alpha fighter itself has been in service and production for nearly 30 years, which doesn't fit into the timeline given on the following pages. They don't include the prototypes in that statement either. It is simply fallacious. Nothing more, nothing less.

But "nearly 30years" qualifies as them rounding in the description. At 25years, which neatly rounds to 30 if they do expected rounding and not some other method of rounding (that is possible), they can push it back to 2019 from 2044 (assuming 2044 is the reference date). If they used a non-expected method of rounding and don't tell us, you can push it as far back as 21years so 2023. And if 2044 is the wrong reference date... It all comes down to how they rounded in that particular statement as I've said several times already. They also had the option of making the "Genia" a production version and not tell us.

If the Alpha was in prototype testing starting from 2020, that'd mean they had 11 years to knock out a model kit.

Longer since the Alpha's Genia cousin that could be mistaken for an Alpha goes as back before 2015, and the plans were finalized in 2017. If we treat it as a "generic" Alpha and not representative of a specific model.

@glitterboy2098
I agree that they are talking about Low-rate production. The question is what do the numbers actually look like in this case. It is possible that even in LRP the Alpha's numbers can be "high" enough to be the premier aerospace mecha, but yet "low" compared to after it enters mass production.

[Seto Kaiba]

actually 'small numbers over severla years" has an official term. it's called Low Rate Initial Production

We know.

In a way it does though since the UEEF/UEDF could shift resources around for production. That they did not points to the VF-1 being out of new production and it being to costly to invest in a new production line.

... yet, they somehow had so many VF-1's leftover that, in the RPG and the old pseudo-canon Sentinels comics, they were still using large numbers of VF-1's into the 2030's. What a mess the RPG is, eh?

IMy bad it is not in the latest Infopedia available. It is however in the RPG Macross SB pg55m "A later variant, the VF-1R, was designed as a Service Life Extension Program for the VF-1A, and introduced weapon systems and avionics that would be seen on the next generation VF/A-6 Alpha." (I'm omitting the italic and bold formating).

An odd claim to make, to be sure, as the VF-1R is not depicted with any technology from the Alpha in canon... the missile launchers worked into the side of the head being the only apparent addition actually represented by the RPG. (I hadn't noticed the RPG is also misidentifying the head gun as a solid ammo weapon... hrm.)

Still, I see what Jason Marker did there... or was trying to do in fluff but failed to represent in crunch. He wanted to make the -1R variant in Robotech roughly equivalent to the Block 6 and later VF-1 Valkyrie in Macross, which upgraded the VF-1 using technical improvements in avionics, controls, engines, and sensors that were developed for the VF-4.

IBut "nearly 30years" qualifies as them rounding in the description. At 25years, which neatly rounds to 30 if they do expected rounding and not some other method of rounding (that is possible), they can push it back to 2019 from 2044 (assuming 2044 is the reference date).

"Nearly 30 years" is something said only in the RPG, which also clearly indicates that the claim is impossible by telling us that the Alpha fighter was not in mass production until 2031. That makes the longest possible span of time it could've been in service as a "premier aerospace superiority mecha" of the UEEF 12-13 years.

[ShadowLogan]

... yet, they somehow had so many VF-1's leftover that, in the RPG and the old pseudo-canon Sentinels comics, they were still using large numbers of VF-1's into the 2030's. What a mess the RPG is, eh?

I'm not familiar with the old Sentinels Comics, I've read the novels though and they included VF-1s (and Logans) in the mix. It is possible to make a small number look like a larger number, its all in the presentation.

I know the 1E RPG included them in the inventory for the SDF-3 and Ikazuchi, but when you look at the actualy numbers on a given ship (1E RPG here) the numbers are pretty small unless you include the VF-1V (which should probably be regarded as its own thing not an Alpha or VF-1) and even being generous with the VF-1V the overall numbers are still pretty small compared to the Alpha. That is a 1E RPG mindset. 2E do they give any actual hard numbers in terms of how many are carried on the Garfish/Ik/SDF-3/Tok?

I don't know if I'd say the RPG is a mess as a whole, its the Marines book. I'd say HG after flushing nearly everything down to drain in the 2000-ish reboot is now using a plunger on the drain they used to get some of the material back cause they got nothing fans seem interested in in worthwhile numbers.

An odd claim to make, to be sure, as the VF-1R is not depicted with any technology from the Alpha in canon... the missile launchers worked into the side of the head being the only apparent addition actually represented by the RPG. (I hadn't noticed the RPG is also misidentifying the head gun as a solid ammo weapon... hrm.)

Not really though. If you look at the bulk of the avionics between the VF-1 and the VFA-6 RPG performance numbers the claim can be somewhat justified (ignoring the command variants of both), though unnecessary since they are pretty much identical, but give the -1R's reduced space in the head... That and the VF-1R gets a boost in protection, but no gain in mass, so we could also be looking at some material transfer.

"Nearly 30 years" is something said only in the RPG, which also clearly indicates that the claim is impossible by telling us that the Alpha fighter was not in mass production until 2031. That makes the longest possible span of time it could've been in service as a "premier aerospace superiority mecha" of the UEEF 12-13 years.

As I said, what method are they using to round for the nearly 30years? It can be something as simple as rounding. The Alpha does not need to enter mass production to qualify as entering service either. Mass Production in the 2040s suggests 1000s are being produced, in the 2020s it could be in the low hundreds and still be a viable for service. After all they don't say when the Alpha actually entered service, only mass production with "Production runs were limited to small numbers almost exclusively for the UEEF for several years until it went into mass production in 2031."

We can see that there where several production runs, since "runs" is plural. They are almost exclusively for the UEEF. So what did the UEEF do with all these Alphas being produced before 2031? EMD doesn't require multiple production runs usually. Service entry seems the most likely.

If we look at the way it is presented in the (old) Infoepedia the Alpha "is Earth's premier third-generation transformable fighter". That rules out the VF-1 and VF-8 (available) since they are not "3rd gen" VFs. So context might be important in what the 2E RPG means by "premier aerospace superiority mecha".

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm not familiar with the old Sentinels Comics, I've read the novels though and they included VF-1s (and Logans) in the mix. It is possible to make a small number look like a larger number, its all in the presentation.

The old Sentinels comics are probably what Irving Jackson referenced for the Marines book, since the Expeditionary Forces in that version of the arc had significant numbers of VF-1 Valkyries in its inventory right up to Edwards' betrayal and subsequent flight from Tirol. In that version, it was actually VF-1s and Spartas hovertanks fighting the inorganics in Tiresia, not Alphas and Cyclones.

(The comics, being legally merchandise, were not bound by the same copyright-induced limitations as the planned TV series, so the UEEF inventory was a LOT more diverse.)

That is a 1E RPG mindset. 2E do they give any actual hard numbers in terms of how many are carried on the Garfish/Ik/SDF-3/Tok?

Nope, just that they're the most numerous older design in the UEEF Marines inventory, and were favored over the Alpha and other aircraft until after the Beta's introduction.

I don't know if I'd say the RPG is a mess as a whole, its the Marines book.

That's funny, in a way, since the Marines book is basically what the fans have been bleating about all this time... a return to how it was in the Sentinels.

Not really though. If you look at the bulk of the avionics between the VF-1 and the VFA-6 RPG performance numbers the claim can be somewhat justified (ignoring the command variants of both), though unnecessary since they are pretty much identical, [...]

On the contrary, it thoroughly undermines the idea.

Why?

Because the pre-refit (pre-VF-1R) VF-1 Valkyrie already has identical avionics performance figures to the Alpha fighter. The VF-1R doesn't GET improved avionics in the RPG. Just improved armor, improved speed, and some additional firepower.

As I said, what method are they using to round for the nearly 30years? It can be something as simple as rounding. The Alpha does not need to enter mass production to qualify as entering service either.

The text, as written, is contradictory... the idea that they're rounding the 12-15 years the Alpha has existed as a production aircraft (counting LRIP) as "nearly 30" is patently ludicrous.

The initial claim of "nearly 30 years" as the premier aerospace fighter is demonstrably incorrect with the RPG's own material.

[ShadowLogan]

The old Sentinels comics are probably what Irving Jackson referenced for the Marines book, since the Expeditionary Forces in that version of the arc had significant numbers of VF-1 Valkyries in its inventory right up to Edwards' betrayal and subsequent flight from Tirol. In that version, it was actually VF-1s and Spartas hovertanks fighting the inorganics in Tiresia, not Alphas and Cyclones.

But if they changed the battle in Prelude doesn't that also mean they could have changed what is actually being treated as being used throughout Sentinels.

Nope, just that they're the most numerous older design in the UEEF Marines inventory, and were favored over the Alpha and other aircraft until after the Beta's introduction.

That is the Marines specifically though, the UEEF "Navy" might be constructed differently. The Marines might also make up a smaller % of the UEEF than the "Navy".

That's funny, in a way, since the Marines book is basically what the fans have been bleating about all this time... a return to how it was in the Sentinels.

I'm a fan, but I did not want a return to the Sentinels. Though I might be in the minority.

Because the pre-refit (pre-VF-1R) VF-1 Valkyrie already has identical avionics performance figures to the Alpha fighter. The VF-1R doesn't GET improved avionics in the RPG. Just improved armor, improved speed, and some additional firepower.

I agree the avionic PERFORMANCE is not improved, but what about the actual SIZE of the avionics? The VF-1R has to squeeze in two Mini-Missile Launchers, and an auto-cannon (Infoepdia calls it a "pulse auto-cannon", which could be seen as a conventional auto-cannon) with ammo presumably. So the avionics in there have to get smaller to fit (and the Alpha head is going to be smaller), so it isn't that the VF-1R's "Alpha avionics" are better performing, its that they are smaller IMHO.

The text, as written, is contradictory... the idea that they're rounding the 12-15 years the Alpha has existed as a production aircraft (counting LRIP) as "nearly 30" is patently ludicrous.

They aren't rounding 12-15 years though. Condor nt-b when it was "new" has text mentioning that when it entered service in 2025 they worked with first generation alphas (after a long winded passage). That right there is 19years from 2044. The Alpha is not described as "new", so it is older than 2025 being in service (a firm date is never established, only when mass production happens). Text also indicates multiple small scale production runs (plural) for the Alpha, so there could be "off years" in terms of production before mass production begins further spreading it out.

Factor in a reasonable, though odd/rare, rounding method to get 21+ = 30 rounded and we have "nearly 30years".

[Seto Kaiba]

But if they changed the battle in Prelude doesn't that also mean they could have changed what is actually being treated as being used throughout Sentinels.

Possibly... but there's no way to tell one way or the other, and the RPG is definitely siding with the Sentinels comics on that one.

That is the Marines specifically though, the UEEF "Navy" might be constructed differently. The Marines might also make up a smaller % of the UEEF than the "Navy".

Canon is generally unhelpful in this regard, as the "UEEF Marines" are purely a construct of the Palladium RPG.

However... between the core book and the Expeditionary Force Marines sourcebook, it would appear that the Marines may make up more of the UEEF, troops-wise, than the "Navy" personnel do. Most, if not all, of the infantry and other support troops in the fleet's makeup are apparently Marine personnel, along with a significant portion of the fighter pilots.

(This is a less extreme version of the divide described in the old Sentinels animation and comics, in which the Expedition fleet assets were under the direction of Admiral Lisa Hayes, but all of the fighter pilots and ground troops and what have you answered to Major General Rick Hunter and his people. In the RPG version, it would appear that the Navy has some aviators of its own, rather than being beholden to Rick's people for everything.)

I agree the avionic PERFORMANCE is not improved, but what about the actual SIZE of the avionics? The VF-1R has to squeeze in two Mini-Missile Launchers, and an auto-cannon (Infoepdia calls it a "pulse auto-cannon", which could be seen as a conventional auto-cannon) with ammo presumably. So the avionics in there have to get smaller to fit (and the Alpha head is going to be smaller), so it isn't that the VF-1R's "Alpha avionics" are better performing, its that they are smaller IMHO.

You're forgetting two key points... technically three, depending on how you want to break it down.

The first is that there's no reason for the avionics to be crammed entirely into the head on the VF-1 or any other craft... they aren't localized like that on a real-world aircraft, and they demonstrably aren't on the VF-1 or the Alpha if you look to official cutaways or other sources of detailed specs.

The second is that the Alpha's smaller head is a false parallel... there are fewer sensors in the Alpha's head to begin with, since the Alpha displaces a large portion of the sensors that would ordinarily be in the head to a sensor pod that sits to the right of the head when in battloid mode. Even the RPG carefully notes this fact, and includes rules indicating what functionality is lost along with the sensor pod when it's destroyed. Considering what's actually IN the sensor pod, it's likely that the Alpha's head only has the camera systems (conventional and electro-optical).

The third is that, if you combine the dimensions of the Alpha's head and the sensor pod, you'll find that there's not really a case to argue that the avionics got smaller... they just got redistributed into two different sections that still roughly equal the volume of a monitor turret off the VF-1. (I'm assuming, of course, that the UHF, VHF, and a variety of other sensors and antennae that would garner no benefit from being in the head are situated elsewhere on the airframe on the Alpha as we know they are on the VF-1.)

They aren't rounding 12-15 years though. Condor nt-b when it was "new" has text mentioning that when it entered service in 2025 they worked with first generation alphas (after a long winded passage).

Welcome to a third contradiction... thanks for that extra headache.

This line appears to have been written with a more official canon-esque Alpha timeline in mind, since it implies the presence of the production-model Alpha in significant numbers six years before the start of production.

Factor in a reasonable, though odd/rare, rounding method to get 21+ = 30 rounded and we have "nearly 30years".

That's still not even approaching a reasonable assumption.

[Jefffar]

First, it is a high stakes situation and Roy, being the hero, is pushing himself and his aircraft to its limit to try to save the day.

That doesn't diminish the demonstrated capability.

No, it's a framing statement to indicate that Roy is trying something that is not normally attempted in the VF-1, possibly because he is going to exceed the design specifications.

Also the capability we see demonstrated is to successfully make an emergency landing after attempting re-entry with no external missiles carried.

Second, as noted, there are no missiles on the wings. There are FAST packs and the GU-11 at the start of the flight. None of these things are seen on the Valkyrie when it reaches the ground however. So it is possible that they had to be shed to complete the entry.

Correction... the FAST packs are ejected, but your claim that the GU-11 is not present cannot be substantiated... we don't see the fighter from any view other than top-down or nose-on from a great distance, so there is no basis for saying the GU-11 was lost in reentry.

Actually, they do seem to tear away (there are pieces falling away when they go) rather than ejected. We cannot confirm the GU-11 is there, though it should be visible a least in the nose on view.

Third, the entry trajectory starts off relatively shallow, far from a power dive. We don't get to see how far down into the atmosphere Roy has to chase the missile either. So it is possible that the interception occurred in the upper atmosphere allowing Roy to transition to a more normal entry attitude.

It's a descending flight path and he's accelerating into it at full throttle... that's a power dive by definition.

Second, we see the explosion in the cloud layer, so it was likely quite low.

Powered descent does not equal power diving. Power diving brings up a mental image of an approach angle like that used by the Stuka to attack targets. This is a far gentler descent. The use of power diving, even if accurate, is misleading.

As for it being in the clouds. Our view of the explosion is from the surface. So it's entirely logical for clouds to be in the way of the viewing, thus giving us only a distorted view. When the US detonated a nuclear weapon at 400km up (Starfish Prime) the lights re visible from it, even through clouds, for over an hour, from 1300km away. So this shot could easily be at high altitude and some distance from the island still.

So we have no evidence indicating that the missile had descended substantially into the atmosphere before the interception.

Fourth, the technicians on the ground indicate that Roy's Valkyrie is so badly damaged that they think the aircraft needs to be retired. Given the number of crash trucks around the landing site, it's likely that Roy had to declare an emergency landing.

Apparently hyperbole, considering the lack of visible damage beyond some blackening of the paint and its impressive subsequent service history.

Except there is debris screen falling off the aircraft when the booster packs rip away, there is a substantial number of emergency vehicles at the landing site indicating Roy probably declared an emergency landing and there are three years before that specific Valkyrie is again seen in operation in a canon source so we don't have any idea of how long it took to return to operational status.

None of that contradicts the assessment of the technician that the aircraft is too badly damaged for use at that time.

Fifth, it is pointed out this is a prototype, so its capabilities may be different to the actual production model Valkyrie.

It's a prototype all right, but as we're told point-blank it goes on to become Roy's VF-1S there is no evidence whatsoever to back up an assertion that its capabilities in any way exceed a production-model craft.

There is also no evidence that it's capabilities are identical to later production aircraft either. Rick almost banging his head off the windscreen in his first mission in Skull 1 may be attributable to his inexperience with the booster packs, or it may in part be due to differences between Skull 1 and the Valkyries he flew previously.

In either case however, it is extremely rare for a Prototype and Production craft to have identical characteristics. We also don't know if the repairs to the damage that Valkyrie suffered brought it inline with the production model or not.

So, given all the above, we can safely discard From the Stars as proof that the Valkyrie could re-enter with a greater weapons load than an Apha.

But that makes sense, because they were designed around different parameters. For the Alpha, the assault onto a planet seems the primary mission. Meanwhile the Valkyrie is primarily an interceptor and strike aircraft. One would expect differences in capabilities in that alone. If the Valkyrie wasn't faster, had better climbing performance and the ability to reach the frontiers of space, there would be something wrong with the design. Likewise, the Alpha sacrifices these things for a large load of missiles that it can take through re-entry and into battle.

Both craft are well built to their role, and inefficient at the other's role. Both craft make sense for the needs of their creators.

[ShadowLogan]

The first is that there's no reason for the avionics to be crammed entirely into the head on the VF-1 or any other craft... they aren't localized like that on a real-world aircraft, and they demonstrably aren't on the VF-1 or the Alpha if you look to official cutaways or other sources of detailed specs.

I agree that not all the avionics are crammed into the head, but the ones that are in there need to be made smaller to fit the additional hardware. We don't know after all how extensive the avionics overlap is supposed to be, only that it exits.

It's also possible the avionics are simply a different manufacturer was selected to provide the systems on the new model. Given the hit to Earth's original industrial base, they might be new model/version of the same hardware. The main point though is that performance may not be in how they differ between the VF-1A/J/D and the VF-1R/VFA-6I/Z.

Welcome to a third contradiction... thanks for that extra headache.

This line appears to have been written with a more official canon-esque Alpha timeline in mind, since it implies the presence of the production-model Alpha in significant numbers six years before the start of production.

I only noticed it due to an old project to construct a timeline of RPG events (first 4 books only) while looking to see how fast "first flight" to "introduction" went for examples, and noted that bit with the Condor. After all who would think to look in the Condor text for information specifically on the Alpha?

I'm not sure it is a contradiction. It fits with the idea of "in service" before mass production, which is possible. It also fits with the idea of updates to the design ("1st gen Alpha") occurring. It can also be used to make "nearly 30decades work" better if "1st Gen Alphas" are distinct enough to be included in the Alpha family, but not the Alphas they talk about (2020-2 version).

That's still not even approaching a reasonable assumption.

It is more reasonable than the 12-15y figure you assume is the case. It is certainly a reasonable assumption to make that 21-24 can be rounded to 30 in a non-standard though mathematically possible method of rounding that isn't being clarified. Then again it could just be a typo.

[Seto Kaiba]

No, it's a framing statement to indicate that Roy is trying something that is not normally attempted in the VF-1, possibly because he is going to exceed the design specifications.

Correction... Roy is trying something that, up to that point, was not attempted on the YF-1 prototype. Also, nowhere do they say that what Roy is doing is exceeding the aircraft's design specifications.

That he pulls it off, and the aircraft is still very much flyable and in one piece augurs well for the production model VF-1 having the same or superior capability... especially since a good portion of the damage the aircraft sustained was likely the result of the blast from the reflex missile he destroyed at close range.

Also the capability we see demonstrated is to successfully make an emergency landing after attempting re-entry with no external missiles carried.

Where, precisely, does it say that Roy made an emergency landing?

Nowhere..

Actually, they do seem to tear away (there are pieces falling away when they go) rather than ejected. We cannot confirm the GU-11 is there, though it should be visible a least in the nose on view.

They ARE prototype parts, so the ejection may not be as clean as the production model's.

Your claim that we should be able to see the GU-11 in the nose-on view falls apart on the size of the view... it's so far in the background that the nosewheel is obscuring the entire space between the engine nacelles.

Powered descent does not equal power diving. Power diving brings up a mental image of an approach angle like that used by the Stuka to attack targets. This is a far gentler descent. The use of power diving, even if accurate, is misleading.

The term "power dive" describes only a nose-down descent while accelerating... nothing more. What you're describing is commonly referred to as "dive bombing", when associated with an objective... which is a near-vertical descent under power.

Except there is debris screen falling off the aircraft when the booster packs rip away, there is a substantial number of emergency vehicles at the landing site indicating Roy probably declared an emergency landing and there are three years before that specific Valkyrie is again seen in operation in a canon source so we don't have any idea of how long it took to return to operational status.

A "substantial number"? There are THREE in total... none of which are shown as emergency vehicles. There's a pickup truck, one that looks like a van that MIGHT be an emergency vehicle (an ambulance?) and one aircraft tow tractor... the presence of the latter clearly indicating that not only were they NOT expecting an emergency, they expected the plane to be in good working order and to tow it back to the hangar normally.

None of that contradicts the assessment of the technician that the aircraft is too badly damaged for use at that time.

On the contrary, the technician's hyperbolic exclamation is that the aircraft is "clobbered" to the extent of needing to be retired and yet it isn't... it's swiftly returned to service as the first of a dozen production-model VF-1S's.

There is also no evidence that it's capabilities are identical to later production aircraft either. Rick almost banging his head off the windscreen in his first mission in Skull 1 may be attributable to his inexperience with the booster packs, or it may in part be due to differences between Skull 1 and the Valkyries he flew previously.

In either case however, it is extremely rare for a Prototype and Production craft to have identical characteristics. We also don't know if the repairs to the damage that Valkyrie suffered brought it inline with the production model or not.

This isn't Gundam we're talking about... realistically, the prototype would have performance either identical to, or inferior to, the production model.

Neither the canon stats nor the RPG give the VF-1S any performance improvements over the production model VF-1A and VF-1J types either, so we can attribute Rick's little accident there to his inexperience with the booster packs and nothing more.

So, given all the above, we can safely discard From the Stars as proof that the Valkyrie could re-enter with a greater weapons load than an Apha.

So far, I have yet to see any evidence to support that contention. A lot of unfounded supposition and some misrepresentation, but nothing resembling corroborating evidence.

But that makes sense, because they were designed around different parameters. For the Alpha, the assault onto a planet seems the primary mission. Meanwhile the Valkyrie is primarily an interceptor and strike aircraft. One would expect differences in capabilities in that alone.

That would make sense if only the canon stats and the RPG didn't attempt to ascribe the same set of operational roles to both of the planes in question... but even so, your assertion that the VF-1 cannot carry ordinance through a reentry has no evidence behind it at this time.

I agree that not all the avionics are crammed into the head, but the ones that are in there need to be made smaller to fit the additional hardware. We don't know after all how extensive the avionics overlap is supposed to be, only that it exits.

The basis for this claim is?

The official cutaways from the OSM strongly suggest otherwise... the VF-1's array of cameras and other sensors fit neatly into the "face" and crown of the head, while most of the rest of the monitor turret is empty space but for a few power cables supplying the sensors and coaxial laser weapons with energy. The Legioss's head and sensor pod, however, are packed completely full. If they provide the exact same suite of functions as the RPG claims they do, then it argues only that the parts were rearranged to fit into both the head and sensor pod's less spacious confines.

It is more reasonable than the 12-15y figure you assume is the case. It is certainly a reasonable assumption to make that 21-24 can be rounded to 30 in a non-standard though mathematically possible method of rounding that isn't being clarified. Then again it could just be a typo.

Between the problems already in the text and the additional contradiction you unearthed in the Condor writeup, it's clear that the 30 year figure cited initially is simply incorrect... but it's also clear that there are significant issues with the timeline they cite for their Alpha fighter introduction. That it slipped past approvals is kind of sad.

[Jefffar]

Gotten rid of the nested quotes for clarity.


What we see in From the Stars

The Prototype enters the atmosphere at a shallow angle with its boosters on. It is not carrying missiles externally.

During his high speed descent, the Prototype loses the booster packs. Their separation involves a fair bit of debris and we are not given any indication that the pilot has intentionally jettisoned them. If the pilot did intentionally jettison them, then it would have been logical also to jettison the GU-11 at this point for minimum drag/maximum speed, but the GU-11 is still on the craft when the booster packs separate.

We are not given a direct indication as to the altitude that the Prototype completes the interception at, but there is a layer of clouds between observers on the ground and the resulting explosion.

On the ground, one of the technicians indicates that the damage to the Prototype is enough that it should be retired.

Rather than taxing to its parking spot under power, the Prototype is stopped on the runway (as noted there is a tow vehicle there). Several other vehicles are also present, indicating an abnormal landing situation, possibly related to the damage to the craft.

When looking at a zoomed in view of the nose on shot of the Prototype on the ground, the nosewheel strut is in the way, however there are gaps on either side of the strut showing the space between the engines. These gaps are large enough that if a GU-11 was in place it should be visible. We don't know when, why and how the GU-11 separated from the airframe other than it was still on the airframe after the booster packs were lost.

Conclusions:

The Prototype did not complete a successful re-entry with external weapons or FAST packs as these were al sot before landing.

There is no in-Robotech evidence of a production model VF-1 being able to take its ordnance into an atmosphere.

[Colonel Wolfe]

There is no in-Robotech evidence of a production model VF-1 being able to take its ordnance into an atmosphere.

This has generally been the Case for both robotech and the production of SDF-Macross... only after years of updates did they add the ability for the VF-1 to carry fastpacks form space, via ex-post facto canon additions. its like when DBZ puts out a new movie 20 year after the production but set during the original series, and GoKu is doing something during the Freeze Saga, that he didn't learn until the android Saga, the creators just claim he knew all along, but didn't desiced to use it in the origonal series until the andorid saga...

[Jefffar]

There is no in-Robotech evidence of a production model VF-1 being able to take its ordnance into an atmosphere.

This has generally been the Case for both robotech and the production of SDF-Macross... only after years of updates did they add the ability for the VF-1 to carry fastpacks form space, via ex-post facto canon additions. its like when DBZ puts out a new movie 20 year after the production but set during the original series, and GoKu is doing something during the Freeze Saga, that he didn't learn until the android Saga, the creators just claim he knew all along, but didn't desiced to use it in the origonal series until the andorid saga...

So any Macross capability to do so is a retcon as well.

So we have a very specific reason why the UEEF would orient towards the Alpha (planetary assault missions) yet still want to keep the Valkyrie (Interceptor) until such time as the Beta was around to give the UEEF an all-around platform (the Legios) that could do everything it needed.

It actually makes those elements of the timeline make a fair bit of sense.

[Seto Kaiba]

During his high speed descent, the Prototype loses the booster packs. Their separation involves a fair bit of debris and we are not given any indication that the pilot has intentionally jettisoned them. If the pilot did intentionally jettison them, then it would have been logical also to jettison the GU-11 at this point for minimum drag/maximum speed, but the GU-11 is still on the craft when the booster packs separate.

Your second clause does not follow, logically, in context with the VF-1's known performance traits. The GU-11 is an aerodynamically sound component and exhibits no signs of strain despite being retained on the aircraft by far less than the FAST packs are. Roy was diving in an attempt to intercept and destroy a high-speed missile. The FAST packs he had were unarmed, and therefore useless for his purpose as well as being inherently counterproductive due to the drag they induce on the airframe. Logically, they would end up being ejected under those conditions. The gun pod would not, as Roy would've had no guarantee that the coaxial lasers would have enough firepower to stop the missile.

On the ground, one of the technicians indicates that the damage to the Prototype is enough that it should be retired.

... and, as the beginning and end of the comic indicate, he was quite mistaken and/or possibly exaggerating for effect in the very hyperbolic manner common to engineers and mechanics in sci-fi.

How much of the damage is actually from reentry and how much is from being in close proximity to the missile's detonation is not clear, but considering that the series depicted the exact same craft making reentry with little difficulty with half its ventral fuselage gone, it seems likely that the missile detonation is the culprit.

Rather than taxing to its parking spot under power, the Prototype is stopped on the runway (as noted there is a tow vehicle there). Several other vehicles are also present, indicating an abnormal landing situation, possibly related to the damage to the craft.

That is no indication that the aircraft was incapable of taxiing to its hangar under its own power... nor is there any indication that its landing was in any way abnormal. There would have been a lot more than just the six people we see in the comic if Roy had made an emergency landing. We see no medical corpsmen, no firefighters, none of the emergency personnel one would expect if a craft made an emergency landing due to battle damage. Just three officers and two (possibly three) mechanics in coveralls.

When looking at a zoomed in view of the nose on shot of the Prototype on the ground, the nosewheel strut is in the way, however there are gaps on either side of the strut showing the space between the engines. These gaps are large enough that if a GU-11 was in place it should be visible. We don't know when, why and how the GU-11 separated from the airframe other than it was still on the airframe after the booster packs were lost.

Looking at the same shot, there is no clear line of sight to the space between the engine nacelles there. The fighter is drawn from such a distance that the space between the nacelle and the nosewheel is simply a blur. There is no reason to assume the gun pod isn't still there, as it was still on the plane when Roy intercepted the missile, and OSM-ly the GU-11 is perfectly capable of passing through reentry. A blurry, indistinct background shot in which the gun pod position is not even visible is not evidence that the gun pod isn't there.

The Prototype did not complete a successful re-entry with external weapons or FAST packs as these were al sot before landing.

As indicated above, this is a statement without supporting evidence, depending entirely upon unfounded assumptions and a demand for some unreasonable level of detail in an indistinct background image.

There is no in-Robotech evidence of a production model VF-1 being able to take its ordnance into an atmosphere.

There is evidence in "From the Stars" that shows a VF-1 carrying a GU-11 down during reentry, as noted previously. Also, a VF-1 is depicted retaining hung ordinance and gun pod in Battlecry, and there is also OSM support for retaining weapons during reentry.

There is no in-Robotech evidence that a production-model VF-1 (or any other craft, really) cannot retain hung ordinance during reentry.

[Seto Kaiba]

There is no in-Robotech evidence of a production model VF-1 being able to take its ordnance into an atmosphere.

This has generally been the Case for both robotech and the production of SDF-Macross... only after years of updates did they add the ability for the VF-1 to carry fastpacks form space, via ex-post facto canon additions. its like when DBZ puts out a new movie 20 year after the production but set during the original series, and GoKu is doing something during the Freeze Saga, that he didn't learn until the android Saga, the creators just claim he knew all along, but didn't desiced to use it in the origonal series until the andorid saga...

So any Macross capability to do so is a retcon as well.

Unfortunately (for you), that is a demonstrably false statement from a thoroughly discredited, known bad source.

You really ought to check your sources before making declarations like that.

Warning: You have been warned previously about trolling Col. Wolfe.

(In point of fact, the VF-1's ability to retain FAST packs in atmosphere goes back to the original tech writeup for the plane... and has been depicted in the pseudocanon Robotech: Battlecry story as well.)

So we have a very specific reason why the UEEF would orient towards the Alpha (planetary assault missions) yet still want to keep the Valkyrie (Interceptor) until such time as the Beta was around to give the UEEF an all-around platform (the Legios) that could do everything it needed.

A "reason" with no foundation in any kind of in-series or OSM evidence...

[Jefffar]

So, looking at the development Veritechs, I think this is a reasonable interpretation of what we see

The VF-4 was developed as the direct successor to the VF-1 as an interceptor/strike aircraft suitable for basing on planets and in space. The high price tag of the VF-4 meant that it never really was cost effective, especially once the VF-1R upgrade package was in place, leading to it ultimately being cancelled after a short production run.

The UEEF looking for a planetary assault capability developed the Alpha, Condor and Beta, the latter two getting stuck in development hell and being shelved.

The Alpha was initially only produced in small batches as the primary veritech of the UEEF was intended to be the VF-4. The cancellation of the VF-4 left the UEEF using a mixture of a small number of Alphas for planetary assault, and the VF-1R for pretty much everything else.

With the VF-1Rs reaching the end of their service lives, Alpha production was stepped up and variants were introduced to supplant the dwindling number of VF-1Rs. Eventually the Beta design was re-examined and it was determined that the combination of Alpha and Beta (working either independently or as Legios) would be able to replace the VF-1R in all roles, allowing the last of the Valkyries to finally be retired.

This explains why Alphas remained in low rate production for such a long time and Valkyries were still in service with the UEEF well after 2030.

[glitterboy2098]

Meanwhile the Southern Cross, originally equipped with VF-1's, adopts the Logan Light Veritech to fill its air mobile mecha needs (with a secondary light interceptor role), and non-transforming aerospace craft for its air superiority and ground attack needs.