Protoculture Targeting Sensor/Invid ???

[magictiger]

I was reading in Shadow Chronicles about it & something doesn't sound right about the Invid Protoculture Targeting Sensor System & what mecha/machines it can detect. It says it can pick up & target the Old Destroids & VF's, But looking under there power sources, there is no mention being powered by Protoculture at all. So why does it say it can detect them?

The same holds true to the Zentraedi mecha. They make no mention of being Protoculture powered either.

Thanks for your answers.

[Nightmask]

That's been debated (and gotten threads locked) before. The list itself was made under the assumption that everything ran on protoculture resulting in things on the list that don't belong there either because they've never used protoculture or were refitted not to.

[guardiandashi]

I was reading in Shadow Chronicles about it & something doesn't sound right about the Invid Protoculture Targeting Sensor System & what mecha/machines it can detect. It says it can pick up & target the Old Destroids & VF's, But looking under there power sources, there is no mention being powered by Protoculture at all. So why does it say it can detect them?

The same holds true to the Zentraedi mecha. They make no mention of being Protoculture powered either.

Thanks for your answers.

the thing is that under the "old" first edition rules the VF-1 Veritechs, and the 1st gen destroids had 10-20 YEAR protoculture fuel supplies, because they used protoculture "fusion" powerplants.

robotech (5th printing October 1988) pg 46.
"Fuel Capacity" The Veritech Fighters are extremely durable. The use of protoculture, micronized reactors, and the science of Robotechnology, gives the Veritech and average, useful life span of 12 years before needing a new energy system. With constant use, the lifespan is cut by half."

in the 2nd edition rewrite October 2008, the references to the explicitly protoculture powerplants from the first edition were removed, but the weakness (IE protoculture sensor detection) was NOT removed. this results in a long running set of arguments.

which really boils down IMO to 2 possibilities.

1 the so called fusion powered 1st edition veritechs still have "something" in them that emanates protoculture emissions and they remain vulnerable.

or

2 the referenced mecha do NOT emit protoculture signatures, and the "vulnerability" specified under the protoculture sensors is wrong.

now personally I lean towards explanation 1 for the simple reason that it is more in line with the cartoon, and old books, and novels, the comics etc. (IE everything PRIOR to the relatively recent IE less than 8 year old RETCON ) but I know there are others that insist that option 2 is correct.

[Tiree]

I was reading in Shadow Chronicles about it & something doesn't sound right about the Invid Protoculture Targeting Sensor System & what mecha/machines it can detect. It says it can pick up & target the Old Destroids & VF's, But looking under there power sources, there is no mention being powered by Protoculture at all. So why does it say it can detect them?

The same holds true to the Zentraedi mecha. They make no mention of being Protoculture powered either.

Thanks for your answers.

the thing is that under the "old" first edition rules the VF-1 Veritechs, and the 1st gen destroids had 10-20 YEAR protoculture fuel supplies, because they used protoculture "fusion" powerplants.

robotech (5th printing October 1988) pg 46.
"Fuel Capacity" The Veritech Fighters are extremely durable. The use of protoculture, micronized reactors, and the science of Robotechnology, gives the Veritech and average, useful life span of 12 years before needing a new energy system. With constant use, the lifespan is cut by half."

in the 2nd edition rewrite October 2008, the references to the explicitly protoculture powerplants from the first edition were removed, but the weakness (IE protoculture sensor detection) was NOT removed. this results in a long running set of arguments.

which really boils down IMO to 2 possibilities.

1 the so called fusion powered 1st edition veritechs still have "something" in them that emanates protoculture emissions and they remain vulnerable.

or

2 the referenced mecha do NOT emit protoculture signatures, and the "vulnerability" specified under the protoculture sensors is wrong.

now personally I lean towards explanation 1 for the simple reason that it is more in line with the cartoon, and old books, and novels, the comics etc. (IE everything PRIOR to the relatively recent IE less than 8 year old RETCON ) but I know there are others that insist that option 2 is correct.

I also go with 1 as well. And I utilize the "Protoculture Chips" method. For this method, Protoculture is energy going through "Protoculture Chips" (picture computer chips) which releases Bio-Electricity Emissions, which is what the Protoculture Sensors pick up.

Going with the above theory it allows me to wrap my head around PE-Clips, it's filled with energy, and the Protoculture Chips are in the energy clip in order for it to hold more. Protoculture Cells, the PE Chips are in the cells to store the energy for high levels of output (Similar to a Capacitor). It allows me to go with the Masters Era Mecha and reconcile why their energy weapons can't hold as many shots, their mecha can't hold as much fuel (I also use the SLMH Fuel Stack for the PA's to be canisters the same size and function as a Protoculture Cell).

[Seto Kaiba]

I was reading in Shadow Chronicles about it & something doesn't sound right about the Invid Protoculture Targeting Sensor System & what mecha/machines it can detect. It says it can pick up & target the Old Destroids & VF's, But looking under there power sources, there is no mention being powered by Protoculture at all. So why does it say it can detect them?

The same holds true to the Zentraedi mecha. They make no mention of being Protoculture powered either.

Nightmask hit the nail on the head...

The reason for the Robotech (2nd Ed.) core book's erroneous claim that the Invid protoculture targeting system can detect the mecha used by the UEDF is that it was penned before Tommy Yune officially established that the VF-1 ran on nuclear fusion and not protoculture... a decision based on in-series dialog, which propagated to the other non-UEEF designs when their respective parts of the series were covered in RT2E.

The New Generation sourcebook does mention that not using protoculture as a power source makes a vehicle undetectable to Invid sensors, and the same sourcebook seems to shoot down the "protoculture chips" theory by not mentioning that protoculture circuitry is detectable in the one case where it is said to exist.

Taken at face value without the specific examples and in the context of the subsequent source books, the Invid protoculture sensors detect any ship, mecha, vehicle, weapon, or other technology that is using a protoculture power source... which ought to include all mecha and ships used by the Zentradi and Robotech Masters, as those are powered by reflex furnaces or protoculture reactors that, by definition, use protoculture to produce energy. By the same token, lion's share of the Earth Forces equipment from the first and second Robotech Wars which uses batteries, combustion engines, hydrogen fuel cell stacks, or nuclear fusion for power ought to be invisible to the Invid if one follows the spirit of the sensor rule and the letter of the subsequent sourcebooks.

HOWEVER... it's not at all unreasonable to have those mecha be detectable by the Invid anyway in a New Generation campaign, as doing otherwise would easily result in gratuitous loophole abuse if your players are paying attention.

[Jefffar]

I also go with 1 as well. And I utilize the "Protoculture Chips" method. For this method, Protoculture is energy going through "Protoculture Chips" (picture computer chips) which releases Bio-Electricity Emissions, which is what the Protoculture Sensors pick up.

Going with the above theory it allows me to wrap my head around PE-Clips, it's filled with energy, and the Protoculture Chips are in the energy clip in order for it to hold more. Protoculture Cells, the PE Chips are in the cells to store the energy for high levels of output (Similar to a Capacitor). It allows me to go with the Masters Era Mecha and reconcile why their energy weapons can't hold as many shots, their mecha can't hold as much fuel (I also use the SLMH Fuel Stack for the PA's to be canisters the same size and function as a Protoculture Cell).

I also go with a similar approach. The emissions are there enough for the Invid to track without the mecha being full on protoculture powered.

[glitterboy2098]

i go with "the book was wrong" and don;t allow invid to gain the bonus against fusion powered stuff.

in my games "prototculture chips" are a type of micro-powerplant that uses protoculture fuel to produce electrical power. similar in concept to the chip based fuel cells being worked on IRL. basically weapons and devices that are protoculture powered (but do not use cells, reactors, or reflex furnaces) use one or more of these protoculture chip powerplants, with supplies of Protoculture. so for example, the H-90 has one of these P-chips in the weapon, and it has a small holding tank for protoculture in the weapon as well to supply it, and the add on stock includes a 2nd Chip and an additional supply. the supplies being built into metal magazine like cartridges (similar idea to the Green Gas airsoft magazines, which look like a gun magazine but hold a tank of propane for use as a propellant gas)

since the show establishes protoculture is a physical fuel, this seems to me the most plausible explanation.

to accommodate the book's mention though, i do allow for the macross and masters era SLMH powered units to sometimes have protoculture ship systems installed instead of things like emergency batteries and backup power supplies when brought into the invid era.. on the idea that repairs and upgrades in times of supply shortages would see people taking the long duration PC-chip systems from gear to replace expired secondary power supplies. this would give something like a VF-1 a PC signature equal to a say, an H-90.. if the vehicle was so modified. during the early war with the invid, before humanity figures out the invid mecha can pick up PC use (not just the hive sensors), such mods would likely be common.

[ShadowLogan]

Well there is a 3rd option, the "false positive". What ever the Invid track for a PC emission is being duplicated by the fusion power plants, even if PC is not actually involved We know that the Invid acknowledge the ability to have a synthetically produced signal, which means it is possible for a false positive.

[glitterboy2098]

Well there is a 3rd option, the "false positive". What ever the Invid track for a PC emission is being duplicated by the fusion power plants, even if PC is not actually involved We know that the Invid acknowledge the ability to have a synthetically produced signal, which means it is possible for a false positive.

given that we have two show examples of the invid referring to a synthetically/artificially produced signal, and both of those explicitly show protoculture in use, i question a false positive interpretation.

at the Dam in the episode "annies wedding" the invid are attracted by "protoculture flares" (which seem to resemble spotlights)

and the Bio-emulator used in the episode "Birthday Blues" is called such but clearly uses a protoculture fuel cannister (the same as fuels the Cyclones and Alpha's) attached to some sort of device.

so when the invid refer to such signals, it is more likely they refer to some aspect of the signal itself (perhaps a the signal being to regular or being too intense or some other attribute that indicates it is less likely to be a mecha) rather than it's means of generation.

[Pouncer]

I personally choose, option 1, figuring there is some sort of Protoculture system built into the reactors to overcome the real world issues with fusion reactors.

However, there is another option 3. In the series and the RPG it is noted that the Invid can detect and track (and for smarter Invid analyze and identify) other electromagnetic emissions. This is a holdover in the animation from the original series where the Inbit detected tech in use. However in our game it can easily explain why the Invid can attack and subjugate races that don't actively use Proto in their own tech. It also covers a lot of ground in how the Invid can successfully navigate in space.

The down side of course is that overuse of this ability then hobbles the "blindspot" issues the Invid have with non Proto powered machines. However the more primitive the machine is the less likely it is to give off levels of EM that the Invid could detect.

-POUNCER

[ShadowLogan]

given that we have two show examples of the invid referring to a synthetically/artificially produced signal, and both of those explicitly show protoculture in use, i question a false positive interpretation.

Whle they two examples involve actual PC, the discussion in one of those scenes does leave open the possibility. After all we do not know exactly what the Invid are detecting, the series dialogue makes it sound like they are looking for a signal with pre-defined amplitude, modulation, or even frequency range.

Corg states that humans are incapable of such deception, that to me makes it clear that you can have a false positive. Now Corg's reading of human capabilities in the matter is of course subject to debate, but he does seem to make it clear that it is possible.