Missing Invid in REF Marines

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:51 am

So I'm drooling over the REF Marines book, and I noticed a bunch of stuff was missing for the Invid. Namely, the Red Enforcers(as seen in the Sentinels animation and the original RPG), the Scorpion Warship (from those same sources), and the Invid Starhive/Battleship that was seen in the original comics. Also, why was the Regent's forces not listed as having Enforcers when they are seen in the animation?

tobefrnk · Unread post by **tobefrnk** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:02 am

I think a lot of what's missing is due to the "The Sentinels happened, but he details are not important" stance that Harmony Gold has adopted. The OVA presentation of the the Sentinels from what they could salvage from completed animation is no longer considered official source material so bits and pieces are "up for grabs". I've resorted to just updating the materials myself using the new 2nd edition RPG materials to help with that update.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:19 am

I could almost accept that except that they included everything else from the original RPG for the Invid except for the Red Enforcers and the Scorpion warship. *Everything* else has been included, except for those two things. I can accept the Starhive not being included, since it only appeared on 3 or 4 pages of the comic, and no where else. But those two were all over the RPG, the comics, the Artbooks, and the Field Guides. They had reams of material for those two.

tobefrnk · Unread post by **tobefrnk** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:15 am

devillin wrote:I could almost accept that except that they included everything else from the original RPG for the Invid except for the Red Enforcers and the Scorpion warship. *Everything* else has been included, except for those two things. I can accept the Starhive not being included, since it only appeared on 3 or 4 pages of the comic, and no where else. But those two were all over the RPG, the comics, the Artbooks, and the Field Guides. They had reams of material for those two.

Oh I agree, but they also had ample amounts of existing art for the UEEF Destroids, and look at the changes there. The deductions being made as to what to release writing for, and when to release them baffle me more and more with each book that's released. I don't know a thing about what is actually going on with the process between HG and Palladium. I don't want to blame anyone and turn this topic into a hate on (company) stream. I'm just glad stuff is still getting made and that I can tweak and add as I see fit.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:38 am

Since the Sentinels animation and comic books are secondary canon now, I am not surprised to see elements from those source not included. I am surprised to not see the Invid Command Carrier though, since it appeared in the Prelude Comic (canon), was responsible for destroying the original design SDF-3's Reflex Cannons, and caused the refit of the SDF-3 which we see in the movie. Additionally, Red Enforcers are clearly shown in Prelude making them canon too.

Like the Tokugawa and the Command Variant of the Bioroid Interceptor, many elements in Prelude have been excluded from the RPG for some reason.

There was also a version of Invid Armored Fighter in the IMAI files (pic M2-15) which also appeared in Wildstorm comics (also canon) Invid Invasion. Of all the Invid designs in the IMAI files, this is the one which should have already been approved since it is clearly canon, yet its the only one which didnt make the cut in Marines.

Colonel Wolfe · Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:09 pm

IIRC, Tommy's Red Enforces in prelude are simply "Red" enforcers... Stat wise they are prolly the same as the ones on earth... but might go faster...

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:09 pm

devillin wrote:So I'm drooling over the REF Marines book, and I noticed a bunch of stuff was missing for the Invid. Namely, the Red Enforcers(as seen in the Sentinels animation and the original RPG), the Scorpion Warship (from those same sources), and the Invid Starhive/Battleship that was seen in the original comics. Also, why was the Regent's forces not listed as having Enforcers when they are seen in the animation?

Put simply, the designs and depictions of events in the failed Robotech II: the Sentinels series are not considered by Harmony Gold to be accurate or valid for Robotech unless specifically corroborated in a post-reboot official canon source.

In this specific case, it's likely that the designs that were subsequently confirmed as official after the reboot were earmarked for the second volume of the proposed two-volume UEEF Marines sourcebook. It's unclear if we'll actually see the UEEF Marines Vol.2 book though, since Palladium stopped mentioning it partway through development of what would've been Vol.1 and Expeditionary Force Marines was not exactly well-received. (I suppose it's also technically possible the designs were omitted due to being out of the book's focus, which is adventuring in the general proximity of, but away from, the events that would have made up the whole Sentinels arc.)

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:52 pm

Wait? Expeditionary Force Marines was not well-received by who? By Harmony Gold, Palladium, or the actual paying customers who demanded the book?

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:27 pm

devillin wrote:Wait? Expeditionary Force Marines was not well-received by who? By Harmony Gold, Palladium, or the actual paying customers who demanded the book?

... by the actual, paying customers who received the book.

While there has been some positive response to some of the new art, the fans have ripped into it pretty hard over all of the errors in the book's text and the use of reprinted material from other books as filler.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:36 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
devillin wrote:Wait? Expeditionary Force Marines was not well-received by who? By Harmony Gold, Palladium, or the actual paying customers who demanded the book?

... by the actual, paying customers who received the book.

While there has been some positive response to some of the new art, the fans have ripped into it pretty hard over all of the errors in the book's text and the use of reprinted material from other books as filler.

Yeah, by far the worst Robotech...dare I say, overall Palladium product, ever produced.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:47 pm

Lancer's Rockers is better IMO. It was half the size, and added more to the Robotech World.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:49 pm

Yeah, I noticed that the editing on this book was especially bad, but did folks really think it was that bad? It's not like it was Manhunter bad. Also, if this book was held up for a year by Kevin doing editing work on it, what happened to the actual editing work?

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:57 pm

devillin wrote:Yeah, I noticed that the editing on this book was especially bad, but did folks really think it was that bad? It's not like it was Manhunter bad. Also, if this book was held up for a year by Kevin doing editing work on it, what happened to the actual editing work?

More than a year. Jason Marker talked about having a manuscript over 5 years ago. I think that's another reason why it was not well received. We waited so long for this particular book and it was rubbish when we got it.

Its like saying, "guess what guys! You are going to meet the cast of Star Wars!"

We all get excited, expecting to meet Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, and Mark Hammil. Then, month after month, we read in a news letter how the visit is getting delayed and delayed.

Five years later, we are introduced to three people who happened to be in Star Wars, but not whom we were expecting. We are introduced to Jawa #4, Stormtrooper #2, and the grip that held the boom in scene 43. And during the meeting, the grip punches you in the face. Its like that.

Colonel Wolfe · Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:41 pm

Kagashi wrote:Yeah, by far the worst Robotech...dare I say, overall Palladium product, ever produced.

Quoted, for , Truth.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:04 pm

Kagashi wrote:Yeah, by far the worst Robotech...dare I say, overall Palladium product, ever produced.

... eh, I don't know if I'd go quite THAT far.

The worst book to date in the Robotech 2nd Edition RPG, sure. The worst book in the Robotech RPG as a whole? Maybe. It's got some stiff competition from Lancer's Rockers and the adventure books.

If there is still a second Marines book in the works, the fan discontent with the first book's quality issues may not bode well for it.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:22 am

I wonder if Palladium did a re-edited version, with error, grammar, and spelling corrections, would that please the fans? They don't even have to add in the three things I mentioned, or any of the other gripes that I've seen (putting in parts commonality since all of the REF mecha use the same arm and leg designs, or putting in a shoutout to the original Destroid designs that these new ones are descendants of, etc...). Just a straight error correction, with maybe an option for early purchasers to get a pdf of the corrected version. Hell, I'd be willing to do the error corrections for free. Just give me a copy of the fixed book.

The reason I am saying this is because I like the idea of Palladium allowing outside fans to write sourcebooks and then publishing them, versus only using in-house writers. I think it is a great way to drum up support for the company and the product line. As it stands right now, they've had 2 successes and 2 failures. I'd hate to see them say, "Well we experimented with outside writers for sourcebooks, and it didn't work out. So we are going back to doing things the way we always do them."

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:23 am

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
Kagashi wrote:Yeah, by far the worst Robotech...dare I say, overall Palladium product, ever produced.
Quoted, for , Truth.

Nope. The worst edited book ever was Rifts: Manhunter.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:27 am

devillin wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:
Kagashi wrote:Yeah, by far the worst Robotech...dare I say, overall Palladium product, ever produced.
Quoted, for , Truth.

Nope. The worst edited book ever was Rifts: Manhunter.

That was not produced by Palladium. It was a Rifts sourcebook, but not a Palladium product.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:33 am

Tiree wrote:Lancer's Rockers is better IMO. It was half the size, and added more to the Robotech World.

Agreed. It gave us equipment from the Global Civil War, but from the Russian side. Plus, even though the concept of Instrumecha was a bit hokey, it did play onto a common element of anime...music. It took the concept of music and gave it quantifiable stats to use in an RPG.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:16 am

devillin wrote:I wonder if Palladium did a re-edited version, with error, grammar, and spelling corrections, would that please the fans? They don't even have to add in the three things I mentioned, or any of the other gripes that I've seen [...]. Just a straight error correction, with maybe an option for early purchasers to get a pdf of the corrected version. Hell, I'd be willing to do the error corrections for free. Just give me a copy of the fixed book.

It's pretty darn unlikely that Palladium Books will ever go back and "correct" any of the already-published Robotech books.

Why?

Because there really isn't a business case for it. The Robotech RPG is a niche property, and most of the people who would buy the Marines book have doubtless already done so. Most of them are not going to want to buy the same book again just for errata or to get stats for one or two mecha that weren't initially covered in a book that was already heavy on reprints and filler.

The Invid designs that got missed out were probably slated for the second book, which may or may not still exist as a project. My suspicion would be that the second book was the result of overambitious planning and disappeared when they found there was just barely enough material for one normal-sized book on that period (minus the reprints).

devillin wrote:The reason I am saying this is because I like the idea of Palladium allowing outside fans to write sourcebooks and then publishing them, versus only using in-house writers. I think it is a great way to drum up support for the company and the product line.

Overall, I think that's probably a phenomenally bad idea.

There aren't many Robotech fans out there who are knowledgeable about the source material, and fewer still who have a good grasp of the source material for all three sagas. Then, of course, you have the fans who are looking to push a particular fan theory that doesn't line up with the official setting, or want to include material from non-canon sources or material to which Harmony Gold no longer holds the rights (e.g. Untold Story). That'd be close to a worst-case scenario for Palladium, with the Harmony Gold side of the equation having already spent the better part of fifteen years looking over its metaphorical shoulder in fear of a lawsuit from Japan.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:51 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
devillin wrote:The reason I am saying this is because I like the idea of Palladium allowing outside fans to write sourcebooks and then publishing them, versus only using in-house writers. I think it is a great way to drum up support for the company and the product line.

Overall, I think that's probably a phenomenally bad idea.

There aren't many Robotech fans out there who are knowledgeable about the source material, and fewer still who have a good grasp of the source material for all three sagas. Then, of course, you have the fans who are looking to push a particular fan theory that doesn't line up with the official setting, or want to include material from non-canon sources or material to which Harmony Gold no longer holds the rights (e.g. Untold Story). That'd be close to a worst-case scenario for Palladium, with the Harmony Gold side of the equation having already spent the better part of fifteen years looking over its metaphorical shoulder in fear of a lawsuit from Japan.

The sad thing is, I actually agree with you now. I've been going through some of the other threads about the book, and I'm seeing a lot of the other issues that I noticed, but couldn't really quantify until others pointed out what was so bad about them. While I did get that Irvin Jackson was a fan of the series, I just never realized that he completely ignored pretty much everything produced after 2000. I guess the biggest problem with doing any future work of this type would be to get someone who is completely fluent in the current continuity, and actually supports the changes HG and PB have made since The Shadow Chronicles came out. I guess the best thing would be to have a triumvirate of fans who can vet the material coming out for the RPG. But the only problem with that is we've seen what happens when you produce by committee from Marvel Cinema.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:24 pm

devillin wrote:The sad thing is, I actually agree with you now. I've been going through some of the other threads about the book, and I'm seeing a lot of the other issues that I noticed, but couldn't really quantify until others pointed out what was so bad about them. While I did get that Irvin Jackson was a fan of the series, I just never realized that he completely ignored pretty much everything produced after 2000.

Failures of research have been the root cause of the recurring quality problems in the Robotech (and Macross II) RPGs for as long as they've existed. The problems are MUCH less severe this time around than they were in RT1E or M2, but we still get a lot of wild guesses and head-scratchers where the authors try to enforce some game balance[sup]1[/sup], give some basic utility to the background material that'd otherwise be pretty useless[sup]2[/sup], explore aspects of the story and setting that were not properly fleshed-out[sup]3[/sup], or just make bizarre sourcing mistakes[sup]4[/sup]. The Marines book was always going to be problematic because it was attempting to revisit a story for which all specifics had been summarily ejected from the canon, and because it was trying to adapt non-Robotech material into Robotech.

devillin wrote:I guess the biggest problem with doing any future work of this type would be to get someone who is completely fluent in the current continuity, and actually supports the changes HG and PB have made since The Shadow Chronicles came out. I guess the best thing would be to have a triumvirate of fans who can vet the material coming out for the RPG. But the only problem with that is we've seen what happens when you produce by committee from Marvel Cinema.

Now THAT'S a purple squirrel job posting if ever I saw one... trying to find someone in the fandom who is knowledgeable enough about the source material, supports Harmony Gold's canon and their sourcing practices, and is familiar enough with the legal constraints on acceptable material to not write himself a summons, and has the free time and skills to write the book is going to be a supremely tall order.

(You could probably count on one hand the number of Robotech fans who meet more than two of those criteria... on this board, the "supports HG's canon" aspect pretty much narrows it down to one person: Me. But I don't have the time to do anything like that, nor do I honestly have the inclination.)

1. Such as the NERF-ing of the VF-1's "MLOPs" by demoting the canon short-range missiles to mini-missiles.

2. Like making all man-portable firearms mega-damage weapons, when most of them are little more than laser equivalents of light infantry small arms... particularly the Mars Gallant/H90 laser hound, a MD version of which implies the existence of mega-damage trees on Earth.

3. Like the whole Sentinels arc in the Marines book, which Harmony Gold resolutely refuses to revisit in any form if they can help it.

4. Examples include the inclusion of the VF-1's "MLOP" in the first place, a design which does not even exist in Robotech, was was included because the notes were cribbed from Macross fansites that don't differentiate between the TV and movie VF-1 versions... because there's no reason to in Macross.

mech798 · Unread post by **mech798** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:01 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
devillin wrote:I wonder if Palladium did a re-edited version, with error, grammar, and spelling corrections, would that please the fans? They don't even have to add in the three things I mentioned, or any of the other gripes that I've seen [...]. Just a straight error correction, with maybe an option for early purchasers to get a pdf of the corrected version. Hell, I'd be willing to do the error corrections for free. Just give me a copy of the fixed book.

It's pretty darn unlikely that Palladium Books will ever go back and "correct" any of the already-published Robotech books.

Why?

Because there really isn't a business case for it. The Robotech RPG is a niche property, and most of the people who would buy the Marines book have doubtless already done so. Most of them are not going to want to buy the same book again just for errata or to get stats for one or two mecha that weren't initially covered in a book that was already heavy on reprints and filler.

This is why so many game producers have embraced PDF and ebooks. Granted, you never want errata, but it's a thing. Putting out a book on DTRPG first gives you an ability to see if issues crop up, then repair them and hand the people who bought the pdf a new pdf and incorporate the changes into the book. But Palladium seems to treat e-format sales as a strictly second level thing, though they seem to be increasing the number of products available at rpgnow so that policy may be changing.

There is also, of course, the question as to whether or not Palladium is allowed to do so-- it's entirely possible that their agreement either bans electronic distribution, or requires them to pay more that it would be worth.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:01 am

Well, if there ever was a case of a book deserving of a PDF or Deluxe edition, this is the one. The thing I don't get is how could things go so wrong from Genesis Pits to this book? Genesis Pits had its minor issues, but as far as lining up with the new storyline, it seemed to fit very well. I don't even think there was much in terms of reprinting involved.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:49 am

devillin wrote:Well, if there ever was a case of a book deserving of a PDF or Deluxe edition, this is the one. The thing I don't get is how could things go so wrong from Genesis Pits to this book? Genesis Pits had its minor issues, but as far as lining up with the new storyline, it seemed to fit very well. I don't even think there was much in terms of reprinting involved.

As Palladium's management is somewhat resistant to the idea of releasing new books in .pdf form, I'd be advocating a twofold errata approach (if I thought they'd actually listen to me).

Maintain complex errata or "extra content" in an online document formatted for 8.5"x11" printing, and include a couple of blank pages at the back of the book where players can staple/paste/paperclip the updates into their books for easy reference. (This'd be ideal for book lines that get extra content via the Rifter, which Robotech can't/doesn't.)
For line-item corrections, print the errata on self-adhesive stickers ("stickerrata") that can be applied directly over the offending section of the book to provide an in-place correction to existing books.

If they wanted to, Palladium could probably knock out stats pages for the missing mecha and ships in a day or two, and post it as a .doc file for people to print out and staple to the inside of the back cover.

As far as how things went so wrong in Expeditionary Force Marines, I think it was mainly a slippery-slope thing. Ships aside, they'd basically run out of book-worthy official material about halfway through the New Generation book. They had to make up the rest of the material themselves to get a full book out of it, since they'd put most of the mecha that would ordinarily have gone into that book into the core book instead.

The Genesis Pits book was another step away from Robotech proper. The monsters and mutants and so on aren't really diverging that far from what the canon capabilities of the genesis pits are, so but its relevance and applicability were limited even if you could call it "loosely based on canon". Expeditionary Force Marines was flying blind thanks to the general decanonization of every Sentinels depiction, and they tried to make up for the exhaustion of their store of viable designs by borrowing from a non-Robotech source. In practice, having nothing to go on and having to fill in the gaps themselves ended predictably with the book warping the previous installment's "loosely based on canon" to "loosely based on Robotech".

Irving can only be blamed for some of the more egregious continuity errors... the lion's share of the book's faults are because they tried to write a Robotech book after they'd run out of Robotech to base it on.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:16 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:Irving can only be blamed for some of the more egregious continuity errors... the lion's share of the book's faults are because they tried to write a Robotech book after they'd run out of Robotech to base it on.

You are giving too much credit to Irving and Palladium

First off here is a list of things that they could have put in the book.
1. List of Human Based OCC's (approximately 5) with 20 or so MOS's
2. List of Zentraedi Based UEEF OCC's (or how to deal with them post Macross) and should use the same Human MOS's or have one or two variants.
3. List of Prototype Mecha (YF-4, VR-01X, VR-02X, Transformable Condor, etc...)
4. IMAI Files Mecha
5. Ships of the Line (2 Ships from each Era, possibly even variants of the Horizont, and my favorite Horizont Bunker Options)
6. Missing Mecha from Shadow Chronicles (Super Alpha anyone?)
7. Destroids? Zentraedi Refits?

All this, before you even tackle the Alien Races that they may or may not meet.

I would also go into adventure scenario's or even a mini-adventure. One of my personal favorites that I'm working on: Tirolean Outpost. Players arrive and have to do something there... Was the Colony abandoned, destroyed, people still there, who knows... so many variations. Is it possible that this is where the Bioroid Interceptor comes around...

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:37 am

Tiree wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:Irving can only be blamed for some of the more egregious continuity errors... the lion's share of the book's faults are because they tried to write a Robotech book after they'd run out of Robotech to base it on.

You are giving too much credit to Irving and Palladium

First off here is a list of things that they could have put in the book.

Okay, I can't tell if this is supposed to be sarcastic or not... because a bunch of this stuff IS in the book.

There aren't a ton of new human OCCs, so they don't really merit a list. The Zentradi RCC is pretty straightforward as well.

You've got like twenty entire pages devoted to the VR-010 and VR-020 series Cyclones, and those are ALL Imai Files mecha, along with a couple of the destroids and that weird Daniel thing at the back of the book. The Zentradi mecha got lumped into "destroids" but they're still there. The only ones that aren't are the ones that have no reason to be there... you don't send prototypes to front line combat, as that's a great way to have them expensively destroyed or captured. In any event, even if Palladium did prototype stats in the RPG, they would've had nothing to go on since the "VF-X-5" has no stats at all and the YF-4 has almost nothing. They won't do the Super Shadow Fighter because Harmony Gold won't let them (as it's supposed to be the big thing for RTSC II).

They covered the destroids and Zentradi battle pods in the book... and seven different alien races.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:35 am

If they had followed the existing storyline that the Pioneer mission was founding colonies along the way in their search for Tirol, between that, fighting space pirates, fighting Zentraedi remnants, and either finding or fighting Master remnants, not to mention the Invid, there should have been plenty of material there for Hook-Line-Sinkers. I thought the best part of Genesis Pits was the two planets they detailed. While you wouldn't need to go into such extensive details for every HLS, there was plenty of space to add more. My gosh, you have half a galaxy of planets to use. You couldn't imagine 5 or 10 to expand the book? Like it had been suggested elsewhere, rip off the planet creation charts that have shown up in the Phase World and Aliens Unlimited books and put a Robotech spin on them.

Maybe the better bet would be to see if they could get Wayne Breaux or Carl Gleba to sit down and watch the entire series, then have them rewrite the book for us. Those two guys know how to write worlds.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:41 am

I'm currently putting together a fan book for the Robotech Relief Expedition (the organization that Carpenter belonged to). In it I will write up some of the stuff we expected in Marines, like Tokugawas, Volcano Fighters, Vulture Fighters, Jotun FAST armor, VF-4 Lightings, prototype destroid designs (Tiger, Cougar, Jackal, Boxer...possibly the TLED). Wolfs armor and carbine. No new OCCs, just use UEDF OCC, but with notes as to what those OCCs would pilot.

This will help explain what the RRE even was, why Volcano fighters were at Point K and in the Wolf flashbacks and why Tigers were present in 2031 when they evacuated the 15th.

I will also include missing Masters, Zentraedi, and Invid ships that appear in either the show or Wildstorm Comics that have yet to be detailed. Perhaps even this missing Invid that was in both the IMAI files and Wildstorm Comics and the Border fleet ships to help explain why the Pioneer Mission elected to go with the SDF3 looking like a "zentraedi" ship we have never seen in print before in the Yuneiverse.

This would cover a time frame of about 2014 (when the SDF-2 was supposed to launch) thru 2022 of space exploration.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:18 am

@Tiree
Please no more duplicate OCCs. I don't object to including new MOSs, but the OCCs could be pared down.

3. List of Prototype Mecha (YF-4, VR-01X, VR-02X, Transformable Condor, etc...)

As Seto said, that isn't a role for Prototype mecha. Those will only be in very small numbers, far to few to warrant inclusion for actual use in this type of book (something focused on R&D phase yes). You are actually looking at something higher up the development ladder than "prototypes", probably low rate production examples being used for field evaluations. The VF-X-4/5 are out then since they aren't mentioned as having made it out of testing.

4. IMAI Files Mecha

Isn't that's what is actually in the book, just with "new artwork" basically?

7. Destroids? Zentraedi Refits?

Isn't this stuff supposed to already be in the book?

All this, before you even tackle the Alien Races that they may or may not meet.

I think the aliens should have their own full book allowing them to be better fleshed out. I don't have Marines, but it doesn't sound like they are any better developed than 1E Sentinels. If HG won't let PB flesh them out, then maybe HG should let PB create some RPG-canon aliens to play with (this requires developing them more than most of the aliens in Rifts setting though).

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:21 pm

devillin wrote:If they had followed the existing storyline that the Pioneer mission was founding colonies along the way in their search for Tirol, between that, fighting space pirates, fighting Zentraedi remnants, and either finding or fighting Master remnants, not to mention the Invid, there should have been plenty of material there for Hook-Line-Sinkers.

That's kind of a problematic proposition on its own... the overwhelming majority of the Sentinels-era material was written long before Harmony Gold brought Tommy Yune in to clean up Carl Macek's mess, and this colonies nonsense was all Tommy's idea. The reason it's problematic is the looming catch-22 of the civilian element. To establish colonies, the UEEF would need to have a civilian contingent; but the only civilians to accompany the UEEF into space were not there legitimately* and the UEEF didn't even build their first-generation colony ships until after the 2nd Robotech War and their subsequent loss of access to Earth and its civilians.**

Like the Super Shadow Fighter's VF-1-style FAST packs, the colony shtick was only done to make Robotech superficially a little more like Macross. If you look at the leaked planning docs for the second, third, and optional fourth episode of the Shadow Chronicles OVA, it's painfully obvious the Angel-class colony ships-turned-missiles are only there to justify the existence of the Ark Angel, which was/is intended to be the centerpiece in a story that reads like a Macross mad-lib. It was going to end up exactly like the SDF-1... a transformable warship with a large non-combatant population fighting its way back home through enemy lines, with the obligatory love triangle (Marcus is the Hikaru/Rick, Maia is the Misa/Lisa, Janice is the Minmay/Minmei), and with an ending that reads like a cross between Macross: Do You Remember Love? and Battlestar Galactica.

What the Marines book got was basically the Sentinels plot before Tommy's additions... a purely military expedition intent on making contact with the Robotech Masters, and later liberating the worlds occupied by the Invid.

* The only three non-soldiers in the UEEF contingent were not invited guests of the military, though depending on how you view their actual involvement with the UEEF only one of them may actually be a true civilian. Minmei became the UEEF's one token civilian after basically stowing away on the SDF-3 during its departure from Earth, and had no real involvement in the UEEF mission beyond stalking Rick and then having a string of soap opera-style affairs with his subordinates. Her cousin Kyle got involved in the UEEF mission later on, as he impersonated a soldier in an attempt to find her, and got shot dead by Edwards for his efforts. Janice was the third, and she's debatable as a civilian because she's not human and, while not a soldier herself, she was built for military espionage... to monitor the UEDF in the Expedition's absence.

** The [i]Angel[/]-class description mentions they were built after the Robotech Wars (plural) that devastated Earth.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:28 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
devillin wrote:If they had followed the existing storyline that the Pioneer mission was founding colonies along the way in their search for Tirol, between that, fighting space pirates, fighting Zentraedi remnants, and either finding or fighting Master remnants, not to mention the Invid, there should have been plenty of material there for Hook-Line-Sinkers.

That's kind of a problematic proposition on its own... the overwhelming majority of the Sentinels-era material was written long before Harmony Gold brought Tommy Yune in to clean up Carl Macek's mess, and this colonies nonsense was all Tommy's idea. The reason it's problematic is the looming catch-22 of the civilian element. To establish colonies, the UEEF would need to have a civilian contingent; but the only civilians to accompany the UEEF into space were not there legitimately* and the UEEF didn't even build their first-generation colony ships until after the 2nd Robotech War and their subsequent loss of access to Earth and its civilians.**

** The Angel-class description mentions they were built after the Robotech Wars (plural) that devastated Earth.

I like the idea of colonies. That was Gloval's original plan anyway. There only being 3 civilians on the Pioneer Mission was one of those things I'm glad Tommy got rid of from the Sentinels. Truth be told, while I like the ideas that came from the Sentinels, and most of the storyline, the logistical side of the story made no sense and it is a good thing that it is being overwritten. So replacing the whole "we took one jump to Tirol" thing with "the UEEF established colonies and supply bases during their search for Tirol" [like a real military expedition would] makes a lot more sense to me. As for the Angel, take out an "s" and add First [First Robotech War], like it should have been in the first place, and it makes logical sense now. As far as the people to populate those colonies go, I prefer Earth having a starting population of 534.9 million post-RoD, but I can live with the 700 million that Colonel Wolfe came up with.

I actually find it kind of funny that certain things that I took as a given following the reboot are turning out to be mistaken due to HG not spell checking or just researching what they said in another entry.

Seto Kaiba wrote:What the Marines book got was basically the Sentinels plot before Tommy's additions... a purely military expedition intent on making contact with the Robotech Masters, and later liberating the worlds occupied by the Invid.

And really, that is quite livable if it had been written like actual military minds had planned out the entire expedition. Supply Bases, Supply Lines, Forward Bases, Fallback Positions, Fortified Redoubts, etc, except in space. I'm not expecting them to have an entire War College, but they could have at least followed the example of Alexander the Great, 3000 freaking years ago.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:21 pm

devillin wrote:I like the idea of colonies. That was Gloval's original plan anyway. There only being 3 civilians on the Pioneer Mission was one of those things I'm glad Tommy got rid of from the Sentinels.

He didn't get rid of that part, though... that's part of the problem.

Except for the stowaways, there were no civilians out in space with the Pioneer mission... and bad, BAD things happened to the two token civilians. Even the RPG leans that way, with the UEEF being described as a purely military outfit and there being no alternate career path outside of military service for people born in space. It's very limiting, narratively, and IMO a terrible idea in a RPG... and the way they casually make it sound like the UEEF is halfway to being the Zentradi Army 2.0 is a little unsettling. Kinda makes you wonder which side you ought to be cheering for.

devillin wrote:So replacing the whole "we took one jump to Tirol" thing with "the UEEF established colonies and supply bases during their search for Tirol" [like a real military expedition would] makes a lot more sense to me. As for the Angel, take out an "s" and add First [First Robotech War], like it should have been in the first place, and it makes logical sense now.

That's one of the other problems... it doesn't look like they got rid of the "one jump to Tirol" thing either. The canon material makes some differentiation between the "original Pioneer mission" and the Expeditionary Forces operations that came later. 'course, it was written up old school-style in the Marines book, which was a one-jump-to-Tirol plot. They don't mention any extrasolar colonies and the colonies in the Sol system are militarized. Their supply bases are factory satellites and headquarters is a military compound on Tirol. It's frustrating having them add these superficial references to plans for space colonization and then having no world-building payoff at the end of it all... all the colony ships go boom, and the one lone warship with its crew of refugees bravely fights its way home. They could've done a lot to grow the setting, but they threw the opportunity away to set up an imitation Macross plot.

It would free things up a bit if the Angel-class ships had been built (and we had a statement that they were actually deployed) before Robotech Wars became a plural... but the way its timeline is framed by Tommy's work, they were drafted and built after the Pioneer Mission had already reached Tirol and the second Robotech War had begun.

devillin wrote:I actually find it kind of funny that certain things that I took as a given following the reboot are turning out to be mistaken due to HG not spell checking or just researching what they said in another entry.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, man... the Robotech chronology, continuity, and technical setting is an unholy mess thanks to so many throwaway one-time references, misused terms, and downright contradictory statements.

That's why there aren't any Robotech equivalents to sites like the Macross Mecha Manual or Macross Compendium, untangling that material is more trouble than it's worth... not that many haven't tried.

devillin wrote:And really, that is quite livable if it had been written like actual military minds had planned out the entire expedition. Supply Bases, Supply Lines, Forward Bases, Fallback Positions, Fortified Redoubts, etc, except in space. I'm not expecting them to have an entire War College, but they could have at least followed the example of Alexander the Great, 3000 freaking years ago.

Such as it is, they had a lot of that. You can't do much better for supply bases than factory satellites. Supply lines probably don't mean a lot when you can fold jump right to the source in short order, but the UEEF is mentioned as using the old Tokugawa-class for rear-echelon transport duty. Forward bases? I'm sure there were temporary ones established once beachheads had been secured on the occupied planets. Fallback positions? Same story. They were the invaders, so I'm not sure fortified redoubts would achieve much against a highly mobile enemy like the Invid, but you could argue that the heavily defended factory satellites-slash-shipyards served that purpose too.

Harmony Gold didn't exactly put it all together, but most of the pieces are at least there to be picked up and toyed with in the RPG.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:20 am

IMAI Files Mecha that I expected to see (hopefully the links work):

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AvnIW5FRgNM/S ... ge_095.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AvnIW5FRgNM/S ... ge_038.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AvnIW5FRgNM/S ... ge_022.jpg
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com ... da9860.jpg

I personally love the Alpha Armor upgrades - a ground Alpha if you will. I was disappointed that it didn't make it into the book. There are other odds and ends that should have, could have made it into the book instead of reprinting some material.

As for the Human OCC's and Zent one's, I think it's important to fix TSC's shortcomings. I think it's important to fix New Generation's shortcomings as well. Clarification in how to deal with Macross is worthwhile as well.

I'll state it again: TSC is not a reboot of Robotech. It is a Robotech 1.5, not quite a retool. Macross just builds upon that. It isn't till you hit Masters when you see the game line really alter in game mechanics for the best. Then New Generation happened, and it went down to RT 1.0.

Clean, Concise, and Internally Consistent Rules is what I strive for.

mech798 · Unread post by **mech798** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:22 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
devillin wrote:I like the idea of colonies. That was Gloval's original plan anyway. There only being 3 civilians on the Pioneer Mission was one of those things I'm glad Tommy got rid of from the Sentinels.

He didn't get rid of that part, though... that's part of the problem.

Except for the stowaways, there were no civilians out in space with the Pioneer mission... and bad, BAD things happened to the two token civilians. Even the RPG leans that way, with the UEEF being described as a purely military outfit and there being no alternate career path outside of military service for people born in space. It's very limiting, narratively, and IMO a terrible idea in a RPG... and the way they casually make it sound like the UEEF is halfway to being the Zentradi Army 2.0 is a little unsettling. Kinda makes you wonder which side you ought to be cheering for.

Not to mention the demographic disaster in te making. The UEEF took a huge number of the people best suited to raise children in terms of their age, and another large contingent were working with the Southern Cross and Died. If you look at the various New Generation episodes, a lot of the people we see i communities seem to be skewing old. That's a very bad sign.

Colonel Wolfe · Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:38 am

mech798 wrote:Not to mention the demographic disaster in te making. The UEEF took a huge number of the people best suited to raise children in terms of their age, and another large contingent were working with the Southern Cross and Died. If you look at the various New Generation episodes, a lot of the people we see i communities seem to be skewing old. That's a very bad sign.

I can't say that the REF took good ages for raising children, Jack and Karen are young teenagers, unless Sentinels was a precursor to MTV's Teen-Mom drafting children into a suicide mission to deep space wasn't a great idea. The Sterling's had 3 (maybe) kids, the Hunter's waited until Lisa was in her late 50's (1985-2042?)to make a spawnling and lost it.... the REF and kids... Heck their reasoning for leaving Bowie and Dana behind it was to "dangerous" to raise kids... I think thats why they mostly took Older people (the guys form ghost town), and young teens (like Jack and Karen) and stuffed most of proper child bearing age people on earth or on colonies.

glitterboy2098 · Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:23 am

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:37 am

Some of those boosted Alphas could provide for performance levels that would put the Alpha on par with or superior to the Super Valkyrie.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:13 am

I enjoyed the Sentinel/tirolian races. And i am ok with players and gm's building thier own aspect of the story arc they desire to play with in the game, colonies, no colonies. Let it be the game groups choice.

but the whole we do not need to be consistent with tech levels. Macross mecha should by no means be superior to the Generation era. The Destroids look like someone just took spare parts and glued them together and called it a mecha with a serial number. not saying the art was bad, but the mecha look horrible.

things that should have been put in the book instead of reprinted material, time differences. Such as gear the marines would of had pre 30s and then after when they switched out. Ships should have been in the book. its a space campaign. Your whole story revolves around these toys. Some fresh material on the Masters empire/ruined colonies. there is so much there that could have been done. More details on space station liberty since its a large element to story line.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:58 am

What was the deal with them not using the original Robotech II: Sentinels destroid and zentraedi designs? I've seen people mention that there was some kind of falling out with the artist team that did them, but Harmony Gold owns those designs. Why couldn't they use them? If there was a problem with using those specific pictures, and not the designs, why not have an in-house artist redo them in their own style?

I think one of the only things I didn't like about the ones in this book was that the story didn't match the artwork. The story for each of these matched up with the original designs, but the artwork and stats seemed to line up with these being descendants of the Sentinels Destroids (late Sentinels War). If/Since these were the descendants of the original Robotech II Destroids, at least give a shout-out to the original designs to acknowledge their history.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:25 pm

mech798 wrote:Not to mention the demographic disaster in te making. The UEEF took a huge number of the people best suited to raise children in terms of their age, and another large contingent were working with the Southern Cross and Died. If you look at the various New Generation episodes, a lot of the people we see i communities seem to be skewing old. That's a very bad sign.

I'm not sure it's all that severe... one of the bigger problems caused by the uRRG's authors when they supplied information to HG to use in the Infopedia, and the assumptions made in the RPG and fan-made resources, is that they massively, MASSIVELY exaggerate the size of the human military in Robotech's latter two sagas. We're talking orders of magnitude here. That exaggeration is a big cause of the population problem.

The New Generation may be somewhat misleading, demographically, since the protagonists generally avoid large population centers because those tend to be places that collaborate with the occupying alien forces, or are at least watched closely by same (e.g. NYC).
The cities seem to have a lot more young people.

Jefffar wrote:Some of those boosted Alphas could provide for performance levels that would put the Alpha on par with or superior to the Super Valkyrie.

It's a safe bet Palladium wouldn't have been allowed to write 'em up like that... that's the Super Shadow Fighter's hat, and it's still tipped to be the UEEF's newest and shiniest toy in 2044.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:but the whole we do not need to be consistent with tech levels. Macross mecha should by no means be superior to the Generation era.

That's a problem more attributable to the fact that Harmony Gold combined unrelated shows with radically different tech levels in their original settings...

Lt Gargoyle wrote:The Destroids look like someone just took spare parts and glued them together and called it a mecha with a serial number. not saying the art was bad, but the mecha look horrible.

That was almost exactly my reaction. :-D

Lt Gargoyle wrote:Ships should have been in the book. its a space campaign. Your whole story revolves around these toys. Some fresh material on the Masters empire/ruined colonies. there is so much there that could have been done. More details on space station liberty since its a large element to story line.

Ships wouldn't have served much purpose in the book...

Why?

Because it's not really a "space" campaign... the action is entirely on the surfaces of the various occupied planets. Ships are just a way to move those troops from the planet they just liberated to the next planet on their to-liberate list. They're the tour bus on the sightseeing tour. You're not there for the bus ride, you're there for the stops. It's a planet-hopping campaign.

devillin wrote:What was the deal with them not using the original Robotech II: Sentinels destroid and zentraedi designs? I've seen people mention that there was some kind of falling out with the artist team that did them, but Harmony Gold owns those designs. Why couldn't they use them?

Eh... I rather doubt there was any falling-out with the artist who drew the old Sentinels mecha. They were done in-house by Tatsunoko, and if Harmony Gold fell out with THEM there wouldn't be a Robotech franchise anymore.

What I strongly suspect is the root cause for not using the old Sentinels destroid and Zentradi designs is the same root cause acknowledged to be behind the character redesigns in Sentinels and hinted to be behind both the dramatic redesigning of our boy Rick Hunter and the related disposal of every other Macross Saga holdover character.

Namely, that neither Harmony Gold nor Tatsunoko own the copyrights on the original Macross designs... and as relations with Macross's owners at Big West are several galactic radii from cordial, they don't want to take a chance on using designs which are visibly derivative of the original Macross designs. Robotech can't afford a copyright infringement lawsuit.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:21 pm

I m not even really sure why the UEEF actually didnt just nuke earth from space after the second failed attempt to liberate it. If the population was so minimal, why not send in a few dozen shadow alpha fighters with betas, collect seeds/spores and watch the invid die in a bunch of mushroom clouds. General Riegnheart seemed bent on using the NS missiles right from the start. The human just set up some other home world or live on Tirol.

there was no need to waste so much resources and time trying to liberate the earth. Heck the Invid did not even seem interested in patrolling the immediate space out side of earth's orbit.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:47 pm

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I m not even really sure why the UEEF actually didnt just nuke earth from space after the second failed attempt to liberate it. If the population was so minimal, why not send in a few dozen shadow alpha fighters with betas, collect seeds/spores and watch the invid die in a bunch of mushroom clouds.

Limitations of the source material, naturally... the outer solar system colonies didn't want to render Earth uninhabitable because it's their one and only option for inhabitable planets in the solar system, and they possess no FTL capability. Even the charged particle warheads they were going to use if things went sour in the 3rd Recapture operation were only going to torch North America to burn the Inbit main hive off the face of the planet. That would still have done an awful lot of damage to the planet, but it'd still be there after the dust settled.

In Robotech, the UEEF just doesn't have that kind of firepower... prior to 2044, they only really had the one ship armed with a reflex cannon, and the synchro cannon is pretty weak by comparison even if it is more common. I doubt they carry enough missile weaponry to carpet bomb the planet, or enough fighters to do it for them.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:there was no need to waste so much resources and time trying to liberate the earth. Heck the Invid did not even seem interested in patrolling the immediate space out side of earth's orbit.

The Inbit/Invid didn't really have a way to... they had no long-range spacecraft of any kind.

(For the Inbit of MOSPEADA it was even more of a problem, since their mecha are powered externally and thus can't get too far away from the hives broadcasting their energy.)

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:44 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:I m not even really sure why the UEEF actually didnt just nuke earth from space after the second failed attempt to liberate it. If the population was so minimal, why not send in a few dozen shadow alpha fighters with betas, collect seeds/spores and watch the invid die in a bunch of mushroom clouds.

Limitations of the source material, naturally... the outer solar system colonies didn't want to render Earth uninhabitable because it's their one and only option for inhabitable planets in the solar system, and they possess no FTL capability. Even the charged particle warheads they were going to use if things went sour in the 3rd Recapture operation were only going to torch North America to burn the Inbit main hive off the face of the planet. That would still have done an awful lot of damage to the planet, but it'd still be there after the dust settled.

In Robotech, the UEEF just doesn't have that kind of firepower... prior to 2044, they only really had the one ship armed with a reflex cannon, and the synchro cannon is pretty weak by comparison even if it is more common. I doubt they carry enough missile weaponry to carpet bomb the planet, or enough fighters to do it for them.

really? Send a single garfish to the asteroid belt grab a nice size rock bring it back and drop it on the planet. no real resource needed besides fuel and time. heck just for insurance value drop four or five. and this weapon was used on the dinosaurs, used in several sci fi movies in the 80's and later. And since Robotech has some major rewrites this should not be an issue. And they had a place to stay, Tirol and likely its colonies if they liberated them from the Invid. so there is plenty of places to live.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:there was no need to waste so much resources and time trying to liberate the earth. Heck the Invid did not even seem interested in patrolling the immediate space out side of earth's orbit.

The Inbit/Invid didn't really have a way to... they had no long-range spacecraft of any kind.

(For the Inbit of MOSPEADA it was even more of a problem, since their mecha are powered externally and thus can't get too far away from the hives broadcasting their energy.)

I know you like source material when discussing things. But this is robotech and not Mospeada. so i use the robotech material and the prelude shows the Invid have ships that can fold. So yes the Regsis could have patrolled space. which by the way is why i want space ships stats for the game, Because I want to be able to run a space game with ships, whether Zentraedi, master or Invid. and some of those pirates that were hinted at would be nice to have as well.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:48 am

Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:The Inbit/Invid didn't really have a way to... they had no long-range spacecraft of any kind.

(For the Inbit of MOSPEADA it was even more of a problem, since their mecha are powered externally and thus can't get too far away from the hives broadcasting their energy.)

I know you like source material when discussing things. But this is robotech and not Mospeada. so i use the robotech material and the prelude shows the Invid have ships that can fold. So yes the Regsis could have patrolled space. which by the way is why i want space ships stats for the game, Because I want to be able to run a space game with ships, whether Zentraedi, master or Invid. and some of those pirates that were hinted at would be nice to have as well.

Yup. Hence my original question, since the Invid have been shown to have both a capital ship, The Scorpion, and a mothership/space hive.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:25 am

Seto wrote:In Robotech, the UEEF just doesn't have that kind of firepower... prior to 2044, they only really had the one ship armed with a reflex cannon, and the synchro cannon is pretty weak by comparison even if it is more common. I doubt they carry enough missile weaponry to carpet bomb the planet, or enough fighters to do it for them.

They do actually have the necessary firepower to wipe out all life on Earth. They could re-direct asteroids and comets. It might be slow acting, but it could be done. And if they want to expend some additional energy they could speed things up. It might not be as technologically flashy as a missile/bomb/gun, but it is still quite within their technological capabilities.

They could produce a sun shade to alter habitability on Earth, or even space reflectors to do the same. Not as flashy, but certainly something they could do to help them lay siege to Invid Occupied Earth.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:20 am

Lt Gargoyle wrote:really? Send a single garfish to the asteroid belt grab a nice size rock bring it back and drop it on the planet. no real resource needed besides fuel and time.

The Invid have no problems intercepting and destroying fleets of warships, swarms of fighters, and missiles of apocalyptic scale... something as slow-moving as an asteroid or comet could be easily intercepted and either redirected or broken up appropriately by Invid kamikaze attacks or the Regess's crazy dimensional powers. We see her flex her mental muscles enough to destroy all the neutron-s missiles directed at Earth in one fell swoop, so stopping an asteroid or two should be no big deal.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:And since Robotech has some major rewrites this should not be an issue. And they had a place to stay, Tirol and likely its colonies if they liberated them from the Invid. so there is plenty of places to live.

Yes, Robotech has some rewrites... but they can't change what the original show shows.

(Naturally, what you choose to do with the story of any RPG session you run is not limited by the constraints of the existing material, so YMMV as to whether or not it's possible. I'm just saying why they didn't, officially.)

They could have a place to stay, yes... but with the Tirolian civilization well on its way to collapse and all of the Sentinels worlds in the Regent's hands or in the midst of recovery (depending on what timeframe we're talking about), it probably wouldn't be seen as entirely viable. Esp. since several of those worlds are allegedly rather inimical to humans.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I know you like source material when discussing things. But this is robotech and not Mospeada. so i use the robotech material and the prelude shows the Invid have ships that can fold. So yes the Regsis could have patrolled space.

Prelude shows that the Invid Regent has A ship. Just one, and it doesn't last long. The others, from the material that Harmony Gold decanonized, don't seem to officially exist anymore (and are therefore unlikely to appear in Palladium's RPG).

The Regess doesn't have any, except those short-range transports, which aren't fold-capable. She gets her kids around using her crazy dimensional powers.

devillin wrote:Yup. Hence my original question, since the Invid have been shown to have both a capital ship, The Scorpion, and a mothership/space hive.

The Regent's personal warship still exists, but the "space hive" seems to have gotten the boot along with most of the other material from the Sentinels comics in the construction of the official continuity.

ShadowLogan wrote:They do actually have the necessary firepower to wipe out all life on Earth. They could re-direct asteroids and comets. It might be slow acting, but it could be done.

[url=http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rocks_Are_Not_Free!]It could also be intercepted fairly easily within the known capabilities of the Regess and her swarm.[/quote]

ShadowLogan wrote:They could produce a sun shade to alter habitability on Earth, or even space reflectors to do the same. Not as flashy, but certainly something they could do to help them lay siege to Invid Occupied Earth.

That sort of mega-scale architecture is a bit beyond them... or, really, anyone else in Robotech.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:58 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:really? Send a single garfish to the asteroid belt grab a nice size rock bring it back and drop it on the planet. no real resource needed besides fuel and time.

The Invid have no problems intercepting and destroying fleets of warships, swarms of fighters, and missiles of apocalyptic scale... something as slow-moving as an asteroid or comet could be easily intercepted and either redirected or broken up appropriately by Invid kamikaze attacks or the Regess's crazy dimensional powers. We see her flex her mental muscles enough to destroy all the neutron-s missiles directed at Earth in one fell swoop, so stopping an asteroid or two should be no big deal.

really? where is the proof in that? You fold into orbit with a rather large rock and by the time the Invid can react its hitting the ground. And with four of them hitting different location I doubt she herself can get them all. the attacks on earth by the reclamation fleets are all focused right in on reflex point. So yea i can see the towers saying hey we have protoculture signatures.
Rocks do not emit any protoculture signature. ANd they do not really show much of the invid tech so its questionable at best.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:And since Robotech has some major rewrites this should not be an issue. And they had a place to stay, Tirol and likely its colonies if they liberated them from the Invid. so there is plenty of places to live.

Yes, Robotech has some rewrites... but they can't change what the original show shows.

(Naturally, what you choose to do with the story of any RPG session you run is not limited by the constraints of the existing material, so YMMV as to whether or not it's possible. I'm just saying why they didn't, officially.)

They could have a place to stay, yes... but with the Tirolian civilization well on its way to collapse and all of the Sentinels worlds in the Regent's hands or in the midst of recovery (depending on what timeframe we're talking about), it probably wouldn't be seen as entirely viable. Esp. since several of those worlds are allegedly rather inimical to humans.

What? They cannot alter the original series? But they blatantly do, Shadow chronicles rewrote how Sympathy of light does down. It is changed up.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:I know you like source material when discussing things. But this is robotech and not Mospeada. so i use the robotech material and the prelude shows the Invid have ships that can fold. So yes the Regsis could have patrolled space.

Prelude shows that the Invid Regent has A ship. Just one, and it doesn't last long. The others, from the material that Harmony Gold decanonized, don't seem to officially exist anymore (and are therefore unlikely to appear in Palladium's RPG).

The Regess doesn't have any, except those short-range transports, which aren't fold-capable. She gets her kids around using her crazy dimensional powers.

so, you only see one of something that goes in and rescues Edwards does not mean there are not other things in storage or else were.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:They do actually have the necessary firepower to wipe out all life on Earth. They could re-direct asteroids and comets. It might be slow acting, but it could be done.

[url=http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rocks_Are_Not_Free!]It could also be intercepted fairly easily within the known capabilities of the Regess and her swarm.

not if you fold it in orbit.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:They could produce a sun shade to alter habitability on Earth, or even space reflectors to do the same. Not as flashy, but certainly something they could do to help them lay siege to Invid Occupied Earth.

That sort of mega-scale architecture is a bit beyond them... or, really, anyone else in Robotech.

thats presumptuous, if not completely untrue. Just because they did not waste time on screen discussing plans they decided not to use, does not mean they cannot make something.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:40 pm

Lt Gargoyle wrote:really? where is the proof in that? You fold into orbit with a rather large rock and by the time the Invid can react its hitting the ground.

Orbital decay doesn't happen instantaneously... it can take days or weeks for an object's orbit to decay to the point that it starts to enter the atmosphere... assuming it doesn't fall out of orbit the other way and go spinning off into space. That's a long, LONG time for the Regess to muster a response appropriate to the threat.

EDIT: On reflection, if you wanted to achieve the same effect with zero probability of intercept, just run the bloody starship into the planet instead. Fold drives in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles work just like warp drives in Star Trek, so you could do frankly apocalyptic amounts of damage just by ramming a small ship into the planet at faster-than-light speeds.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:And with four of them hitting different location I doubt she herself can get them all. the attacks on earth by the reclamation fleets are all focused right in on reflex point. So yea i can see the towers saying hey we have protoculture signatures.
Rocks do not emit any protoculture signature. ANd they do not really show much of the invid tech so its questionable at best.

The Regess had no problem spotting shadow-stealthed ships and fighters, and those don't emit protoculture signatures either. Even in RTSC, when the shadow-stealthed fleet approached Earth she had her forces mobilized almost instantly.

The Invid aren't stupid, and won't ignore an obvious threat just because it's not packed to the rafters with protoculture. (Actually, isn't that actually stated right in the core book in almost exactly those terms?)

Lt Gargoyle wrote:What? They cannot alter the original series? But they blatantly do, Shadow chronicles rewrote how Sympathy of light does down. It is changed up.

Shadow Chronicles rewrote a portion of the show's ending... and only enough to let them crowbar in a new conflict. That's a good deal different from rewriting the beginning of the show and murdering all the protagonists.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:so, you only see one of something that goes in and rescues Edwards does not mean there are not other things in storage or else were.

IIRC, even in the old comics the Regent's ship was one of a kind... though in that version he had a handful of space hives for troop transportation, and those were almost as defenseless as the Regess's transports while also being larger targets. The Regess was the one to fear, even though she only had the surface-to-orbit transports for planetary defense, because she had numbers on her side in a big way.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:thats presumptuous, if not completely untrue. Just because they did not waste time on screen discussing plans they decided not to use, does not mean they cannot make something.

The manufacturing capability and timetables we're given evidence of in Prelude and the Shadow Chronicles film itself would strongly argue that building an object large enough to materially affect the climate of Earth would be beyond what UEEF engineers and their existing resources could carry out. It would be the single largest construct in the entire Robotech setting... dwarfing even the works of the Robotech Masters at their height. If you're looking to retake the planet, it'd be a monstrously wasteful misuse of resources. You could choke the Invid in drone fighters with the resources you'd need to build something like that.

(Never mind the amount of protoculture you'd have to expend just to get the damned thing in place...)

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:03 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:really? where is the proof in that? You fold into orbit with a rather large rock and by the time the Invid can react its hitting the ground.

Orbital decay doesn't happen instantaneously... it can take days or weeks for an object's orbit to decay to the point that it starts to enter the atmosphere... assuming it doesn't fall out of orbit the other way and go spinning off into space. That's a long, LONG time for the Regess to muster a response appropriate to the threat.

EDIT: On reflection, if you wanted to achieve the same effect with zero probability of intercept, just run the bloody starship into the planet instead. Fold drives in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles work just like warp drives in Star Trek, so you could do frankly apocalyptic amounts of damage just by ramming a small ship into the planet at faster-than-light speeds.

You do not need to sacrifice a ship or human life, you fold in a low orbit and let that rock go. gravity will pull it straight down. well maybe at a curve but its gonna fall. and she can do whatever she wants she is not gonna see that .
anyway it goes the flower of life is gone.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:And with four of them hitting different location I doubt she herself can get them all. the attacks on earth by the reclamation fleets are all focused right in on reflex point. So yea i can see the towers saying hey we have protoculture signatures.
Rocks do not emit any protoculture signature. ANd they do not really show much of the invid tech so its questionable at best.

The Regess had no problem spotting shadow-stealthed ships and fighters, and those don't emit protoculture signatures either. Even in RTSC, when the shadow-stealthed fleet approached Earth she had her forces mobilized almost instantly.

The Invid aren't stupid, and won't ignore an obvious threat just because it's not packed to the rafters with protoculture. (Actually, isn't that actually stated right in the core book in almost exactly those terms?)

Actually its evident that the lower cast are stupid. turn off mecha lay it down and hide. humans run/ride into tall grass and turn everything off and they ignore them. its not till the higher cast come along that they use any true signs of intelligence.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:What? They cannot alter the original series? But they blatantly do, Shadow chronicles rewrote how Sympathy of light does down. It is changed up.

Shadow Chronicles rewrote a portion of the show's ending... and only enough to let them crowbar in a new conflict. That's a good deal different from rewriting the beginning of the show and murdering all the protagonists.

As you told me once, its their IP and they can change it if they want to and how they want.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:so, you only see one of something that goes in and rescues Edwards does not mean there are not other things in storage or else were.

IIRC, even in the old comics the Regent's ship was one of a kind... though in that version he had a handful of space hives for troop transportation, and those were almost as defenseless as the Regess's transports while also being larger targets. The Regess was the one to fear, even though she only had the surface-to-orbit transports for planetary defense, because she had numbers on her side in a big way.

she turned her people into energy.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:thats presumptuous, if not completely untrue. Just because they did not waste time on screen discussing plans they decided not to use, does not mean they cannot make something.

The manufacturing capability and timetables we're given evidence of in Prelude and the Shadow Chronicles film itself would strongly argue that building an object large enough to materially affect the climate of Earth would be beyond what UEEF engineers and their existing resources could carry out. It would be the single largest construct in the entire Robotech setting... dwarfing even the works of the Robotech Masters at their height. If you're looking to retake the planet, it'd be a monstrously wasteful misuse of resources. You could choke the Invid in drone fighters with the resources you'd need to build something like that.

(Never mind the amount of protoculture you'd have to expend just to get the damned thing in place...)

Solor sails could do the job. and they could be down cheep and with little effort compared to building a NS missile.