Which mecha is the true successor to the VF-1: Alpha or Beta

[Jefffar]

Meanwhile the Southern Cross, originally equipped with VF-1's, adopts the Logan Light Veritech to fill its air mobile mecha needs (with a secondary light interceptor role), and non-transforming aerospace craft for its air superiority and ground attack needs.

The Ajacs needs to work in here somehow.

[Seto Kaiba]

So, looking at the development Veritechs, I think this is a reasonable interpretation of what we see

Your continuity may vary... thanks to contradictions between the RPG and canon. (Headache++;)

The VF-4 was developed as the direct successor to the VF-1 as an interceptor/strike aircraft suitable for basing on planets and in space. The high price tag of the VF-4 meant that it never really was cost effective, especially once the VF-1R upgrade package was in place, leading to it ultimately being cancelled after a short production run.

Technically, the Alpha was also developed as a direct successor to the VF-1... its prototype is shown in testing alongside the YF-4 in From the Stars, though the canon description of the move from one program to the other makes it clear they were not in any kind of design competition. The Alpha is presented, both in canon and the RPG, as a response to the YF-4 program turning out to be unsustainable.

To date, the official canon writeup does not establish the existence of any YF-4's beyond the prototype seen in the comic (and the scale model in the series). The RPG has not covered the YF-4 yet, but it is thus far conspicuously absent from any descriptions of UEDF and UEEF inventory following the 1st Robotech War.

(ShadowLogan and I generally agree that a plausible argument could be made for the Conbat being a non-variable YF-4 derivative design the way the Condor was in Robotech for the VF-X-5.)

The UEEF looking for a planetary assault capability developed the Alpha, Condor and Beta, the latter two getting stuck in development hell and being shelved.

Actually, planetary assault is nowhere on the list of reasons given in canon for the selection of the Alpha or Beta fighters. The virtues which are mentioned in canon that led to the Alpha's selection as next main fighter were its size, its maneuverability, and its payload. The Beta's chief role was acting as a booster pack for the Alpha, both during its original development and after its eventual completion.

(As a side note, it's worth remembering that the payload aspect predates the admittedly-erroneous addition of the 15xSRM underwing pack to the VF-1's canon armaments in Robotech, which removed almost all of the Alpha's payload advantage. The RPG tried to address this problem by downsizing the missiles to mini-missiles.)

The Alpha was initially only produced in small batches as the primary veritech of the UEEF was intended to be the VF-4. The cancellation of the VF-4 left the UEEF using a mixture of a small number of Alphas for planetary assault, and the VF-1R for pretty much everything else.

With the VF-1Rs reaching the end of their service lives, Alpha production was stepped up and variants were introduced to supplant the dwindling number of VF-1Rs. Eventually the Beta design was re-examined and it was determined that the combination of Alpha and Beta (working either independently or as Legios) would be able to replace the VF-1R in all roles, allowing the last of the Valkyries to finally be retired.

The RPG isn't clear on what, exactly, the UEEF was using as its main fighter in the gap between the departure of the fleet in 2022 and the introduction of the Alpha fighter some point in the mid-to-late 2020's ("several" years before the start of production in 2031). In the Marines book, the Marines have an alleged preference for the VF-1 and use it in greater numbers than any other craft, until the Beta is introduced in the late 2030's.

The canon continuity has the Alpha fighter front and center as the main fighter of the UEEF from the word go, but as the entirety of the arc is officially unexplored except for the very beginning and very end, the full extent of their inventory has never been explored.

Take out the VF-1R variant, and you've basically described the way it was in the Sentinels comics tho... for that, the Alphas were available as early as 2022, but were left jockeying for space in the inventory right up to the ending-by-cancellation of the series. It's been a while since I re-read 'em, but IIRC they had Logans and AGACs and various other stuff kicking around.

[Jefffar]

VF-4 is in the Minis game and is mentioned as having a limited production run.

[glitterboy2098]

Meanwhile the Southern Cross, originally equipped with VF-1's, adopts the Logan Light Veritech to fill its air mobile mecha needs (with a secondary light interceptor role), and non-transforming aerospace craft for its air superiority and ground attack needs.

The Ajacs needs to work in here somehow.

AGACs Auroran shows up much later (prototypes in 2029/2030, then fast racked to production) so i'd guess that the AGACs was meant to replace or augment one of the established units. if i had to guess, to replace the Logan in the Air-mobile mecha role.. it lacks the sheer speed in fighter mode for deployment, but the better armor and firepower, as well as the versatility of the copter mode means it's a better combatant once it reaches the destination. and the ASC of the late 2020's has fast transports that can deploy mecha, something the ASC probably did not have a lot of in the late 2010's and early 2020's when they adopted the Logan.

of course, in 2030 when they were looking for any advantage against the master's they could, the AGACs probably looked like something they could deploy fast.. so they deployed it as a space superiority mecha against the bioroids. (because the master's were mainly fighting in space) where it did ok. the fights against the master's were mostly battloid mode work any way, which played well into the "air mobile mecha" role, just in an unconventional enviroment.

i would assume that had the master's not arrived, the AGACs would have replaced the Logan in the air-mobile role (which i sometimes refer to as "paratroop" myself.. a role the Alpha fills for the UEEF actually) while the Logan would have been relegated to Interceptor type duties primarily. under that set up the AGACs would probably have been flown by the Civil Defence Flying Corps and Tactical Airforce, with the Tactical armored space corps sticking mainly to Logans.
but instead the war came, and the TASC got the AGACs, the Logan got phased out as a frontline combatatnt, and the ASC a a whole got much more desperate (i mean, they deployed tank mode hovertanks as space combat units. using a cockpit cowl and bolt on thruster packs.)

[Seto Kaiba]

VF-4 is in the Minis game and is mentioned as having a limited production run.

Interesting, to be sure... but how applicable is that, or any other statement in the tabletop game, to the RPG? (I'm genuinely asking here.)

If it is ever covered in detail in the RPG, it'll be interesting to see how Robotech's YF-4 shapes up against Macross's VF-4. What little official spec Harmony Gold came up with doesn't match the proportions of the craft, and makes it out to be slower and heavier than its Macross equivalent, but says nothing about its armament.

AGACs Auroran shows up much later (prototypes in 2029/2030, then fast racked to production) so i'd guess that the AGACs was meant to replace or augment one of the established units. if i had to guess, to replace the Logan in the Air-mobile mecha role.

OSMly, the Auroran (RT: AGACs) was developed to replace the Logan, but was only a marginal improvement against the Zor Lords' bioroids.

Both in canon Robotech and the RPG, the AGACs was not developed as the Logan's replacement, but ended up being its de facto replacement due to the hideous attrition rate the Logans were experiencing. The RPG's version is that it was intended to replace a number of conventional helicopter gunships for infantry support, and ended up acquiring the space fighter role due to its descent into design-by-committee hell for a few years.

[Jefffar]

VF-4 is in the Minis game and is mentioned as having a limited production run.

Interesting, to be sure... but how applicable is that, or any other statement in the tabletop game, to the RPG? (I'm genuinely asking here.)

If it is ever covered in detail in the RPG, it'll be interesting to see how Robotech's YF-4 shapes up against Macross's VF-4. What little official spec Harmony Gold came up with doesn't match the proportions of the craft, and makes it out to be slower and heavier than its Macross equivalent, but says nothing about its armament.

There is a strong relationship between the games in more than just beign representations of Robotech produced by Palladium. Some terminology is also shared and it is (roughly) possible to convert RPG characters into the Mini's game.

Based on what's in the Mini's game, the VF-4 is tougher than the VF-1 and has a sizable weapons payload. Speed is somehat abstract in that game, but it is in the same category as the Valkyrie and other high speed craft.

[Colonel Wolfe]

There is no in-Robotech evidence of a production model VF-1 being able to take its ordnance into an atmosphere.

This has generally been the Case for both robotech and the production of SDF-Macross... only after years of updates did they add the ability for the VF-1 to carry fastpacks form space, via ex-post facto canon additions. its like when DBZ puts out a new movie 20 year after the production but set during the original series, and GoKu is doing something during the Freeze Saga, that he didn't learn until the android Saga, the creators just claim he knew all along, but didn't desiced to use it in the origonal series until the andorid saga...

So any Macross capability to do so is a retcon as well.

Basically, the claims to the contrary come from sources that were published well past the original production of the 83 series, and were intended fro the production of the L:DYR movie. The only instance of the Fast-pack being in an artmosphere is in Battle-cry, and it was a programming error because you sleected fighters once every 3 or 4 missions, and if you selected a super in a space mission then you used it until you re-slected it, wven if you went planeraty. but on planetay missions when you picked, the options to pick the fast-pack were disabled... even the creators acknowledged that was a programing error on their part.

[ShadowLogan]

The basis for this claim is?

The official cutaways from the OSM strongly suggest otherwise... the VF-1's array of cameras and other sensors fit neatly into the "face" and crown of the head, while most of the rest of the monitor turret is empty space but for a few power cables supplying the sensors and coaxial laser weapons with energy. The Legioss's head and sensor pod, however, are packed completely full. If they provide the exact same suite of functions as the RPG claims they do, then it argues only that the parts were rearranged to fit into both the head and sensor pod's less spacious confines.

The cut-aways I've seen of the VF-1's head look as crowded as the VFA-6's head. Then again if the head is as open as you say on the VF-1, then it might not have anything to do with performance or size, but rather simply who makes them or their operational limits that most gammers probably wouldn't even think about (the open space would be better for heat management than a more jam packed space).

The R's head also had has to somehow accommodate a feeding mechansim and possibly even payload of the 20mm cannon, and the mini-missile tubes (essentially identical to the Alpha-H/I/Z, the only difference is the name but that could just be a re-designation). So new avionics might be needed based on the these two weapon systems being added.

Between the problems already in the text and the additional contradiction you unearthed in the Condor writeup, it's clear that the 30 year figure cited initially is simply incorrect... but it's also clear that there are significant issues with the timeline they cite for their Alpha fighter introduction. That it slipped past approvals is kind of sad.

As I've said repeatedly, it might just come down to how the 30year figure is determined. And if you want to get technical they do not cite an actual date for the Alpha fighter introduction, only when mass production occurs which can be different. Items of Low-Rate Production enter service before the mass production versions and we know there where several runs of LRP.

Game mechanic related decisions I can sort of see HG going "okay I'll take your word for it" if they aren't familiar with the system, but as far as the fluff goes it is pretty sad given the level of oversight HG wants to have here.

The Beta's chief role was acting as a booster pack for the Alpha, both during its original development and after its eventual completion.

Originally it is also to replace the SF-5 Conbat in the heavy strike fighter role (the 2E RPG also gives it the fighter/interceptor mission).

but ended up being its de facto replacement due to the hideous attrition rate the Logans were experiencing.

The "negative performance" aspects are complete inventions of TPTB and fans in some effort to explain why the Logan was replaced by the AGAC. But have no actual basis, they assume the Logan was replaced because it sucked, when it could be something far less ominous given the numbers actually depicted. On screen at least, Marie Crystal has 5 episodes in space battles with an AGAC racking up 22kills (and damaged a Carrier), 1 episode in space battle with a Logan 15 by my count. So on screen it would appear that Marie Crystal would be better in a Logan than an AGAC against Bioroids in space. We don't have any other Logan vs Bioroid battles in space to compare (that's why I limited it to a single pilot), but when the Logan returns to space again it is used like the Slyphid and again is shown to be more effective (trashing structures on the hull with cannon fire, something the Sylphid missiles could not do).

(In point of fact, the VF-1's ability to retain FAST packs in atmosphere goes back to the original tech writeup for the plane... and has been depicted in the pseudocanon Robotech: Battlecry story as well.)

Re: Battlecry. The ability to use FAST packs in atmosphere though results from a bug/glitch in the game programming since it can only be achieved by a certain scenario. If you try to go outside of that scenario it will say "space mission only" (or something like that) and not allow you to proceed. So using Battlecry doesn't prove it is supposed to work like that since it requires an exploit/glitch/bug to work and is no different than using cheat codes.

I do not rule out the ability to use FAST packs in atmosphere, but they will incur a drag penalty.

[Seto Kaiba]

There is a strong relationship between the games in more than just beign representations of Robotech produced by Palladium. Some terminology is also shared and it is (roughly) possible to convert RPG characters into the Mini's game.

Based on what's in the Mini's game, the VF-4 is tougher than the VF-1 and has a sizable weapons payload. Speed is somehat abstract in that game, but it is in the same category as the Valkyrie and other high speed craft.

Anything quantifiable in objective non-game terms?

The cut-aways I've seen of the VF-1's head look as crowded as the VFA-6's head. Then again if the head is as open as you say on the VF-1, then it might not have anything to do with performance or size, but rather simply who makes them or their operational limits that most gammers probably wouldn't even think about (the open space would be better for heat management than a more jam packed space).

I'll upload a pic for you later today, but I think I understand why you'd say most of the cutaways make the VF-1's head look crowded as a Legioss's. Almost all of the VF-1 battroid cutaways are front views. With all the equipment crowded up against the front of the "face" and the crown of the head, that'd make it look like the head was jam-packed full of gear when most of the rear portion is just plain empty.

The R's head also had has to somehow accommodate a feeding mechansim and possibly even payload of the 20mm cannon, and the mini-missile tubes (essentially identical to the Alpha-H/I/Z, the only difference is the name but that could just be a re-designation). So new avionics might be needed based on the these two weapon systems being added.

The feed mechanism for a solid ammo cannon would absolutely take up a fair amount of space, depending on where the magazine actually sits. (I've always assumed it was meant to be entirely situated in the head, which would probably lay claim to most or all of the remaining space in there.)

Also, didn't the R-type head have half the missile complement of the Alpha head? Or am I misremembering?

The "negative performance" aspects are complete inventions of TPTB and fans in some effort to explain why the Logan was replaced by the AGAC. But have no actual basis, [...]

It sort of assumes that the offscreen performance of the Logan is worse than the onscreen, but in the absence of a "smoking gun" to prove it wrong there's not a lot that can be done to disprove it... esp. since the RPG echoes the stance.

I do not rule out the ability to use FAST packs in atmosphere, but they will incur a drag penalty.

That's the RPG's view, and the OSM would certainly agree with it wholeheartedly.

[ShadowLogan]

Also, didn't the R-type head have half the missile complement of the Alpha head? Or am I misremembering?

Unless it got revised somewhere (printing wise) the mini-missile launchers in the head are identical in all but name in the 2E RPG. This system appears to be added by the 2E RPG as it was not in the Infopedia earlier this year.

It sort of assumes that the offscreen performance of the Logan is worse than the onscreen, but in the absence of a "smoking gun" to prove it wrong there's not a lot that can be done to disprove it... esp. since the RPG echoes the stance.

You basically disproved their viewpoint. There is nothing to prove that the Logan did as bad off-screen as they claim. Nor is it actually stated that the Logan was being replaced by the AGAC outright.

[Seto Kaiba]

Unless it got revised somewhere (printing wise) the mini-missile launchers in the head are identical in all but name in the 2E RPG. This system appears to be added by the 2E RPG as it was not in the Infopedia earlier this year.

I was mistaken, it does in fact have eight missiles instead of four in my copy... and you are correct, it's not in the official spec.

You basically disproved their viewpoint. There is nothing to prove that the Logan did as bad off-screen as they claim. Nor is it actually stated that the Logan was being replaced by the AGAC outright.

Not really... what's seen on screen is not the sum total of the combat actions and events of the war.

On the one hand, you could say that there's nothing that specifically points to the Logan doing significantly worse offscreen than it did onscreen, but by the same token there's also nothing to point to it NOT doing significantly worse. Their say-so is pretty much the one piece of actual evidence to that effect. The same is true for a number of other things in the official stats, like the reason the YF-4 got canceled, or the VF-1R's existence.

[Jefffar]

There is a strong relationship between the games in more than just beign representations of Robotech produced by Palladium. Some terminology is also shared and it is (roughly) possible to convert RPG characters into the Mini's game.

Based on what's in the Mini's game, the VF-4 is tougher than the VF-1 and has a sizable weapons payload. Speed is somehat abstract in that game, but it is in the same category as the Valkyrie and other high speed craft.

Anything quantifiable in objective non-game terms?

Not in numbers, not really. Best that can be said is beam cannons and missiles. Exact payloads or performance figures are not really translatable in a game that defines volleys missiles as an attack rather than discreet items and speeds are defined as walking, flying or supersonic.

I do not rule out the ability to use FAST packs in atmosphere, but they will incur a drag penalty.

That's the RPG's view, and the OSM would certainly agree with it wholeheartedly.

I don't disagree with FAST packs in an atmosphere either, but keeping them through re-entry doesn't seem plausible, as far as Robotech is concerned anyway.

[ShadowLogan]

Not really... what's seen on screen is not the sum total of the combat actions and events of the war.

On the one hand, you could say that there's nothing that specifically points to the Logan doing significantly worse offscreen than it did onscreen, but by the same token there's also nothing to point to it NOT doing significantly worse. Their say-so is pretty much the one piece of actual evidence to that effect. The same is true for a number of other things in the official stats, like the reason the YF-4 got canceled, or the VF-1R's existence.

I agree what is depicted on screen isn't the everything that happens. Yet at the same time the pure off-screen stuff comes down to their say-so without any real basis in the series in this case. It is far more plausible to assume that the Logan was just no longer in production and it wasn't cost effective to re=open the production line (a known down side to ending production). There is no reason to say: "it did poorly" when the available evidence is just the opposite.

And production lines do not dictate how long a given item stays in service. If that was the case then the B-52, B-1B, B-2, F-22, A-10 would all have been retired long ago given they are now all have closed production lines.

[glitterboy2098]

funny how i've not seen anyone actually say "the logan performed poorly"

but it is clear the ASC was looking for something that offered advantages over their existing gear.

it's like how the F4 was not performing badly in its various roles. but the USAF did the TFX program and LFX program and developed the F-15 and F-16 anyway, because they wanted something newer and which did even better than the already good F-4.

[Colonel Wolfe]

funny how i've not seen anyone actually say "the logan performed poorly"

Generally this leads someone to an infinite regress of "but nothing says they were not doing badly".... which is basically moving the goal posts and reversing the burden of proof...
The Quote from the Infopedia is some "proof"-"The Logan fared poorly in the Second Robotech War, and it was quickly eclipsed by the AGACs in space, and by the non-transformable fighters like the Chimera in the air."

but people forget that in the Ajax entry it also says:
"In all, the AGAC is a succesfull design, although it suffered grievous losses against the Robotech Masters, along with all other Earth mecha and ships."
-----------
the Word "ALL" is interesting, since it would apply to the VF-1, Alpha and any other units developed prior to the Master's assault on earth... if the Logan faired poorly, it was in the company of all the mecha of the earth in being shredded by the Master's forces.

[ShadowLogan]

"The Logan fared poorly in the Second Robotech War, and it was quickly eclipsed by the AGACs in space, and by the non-transformable fighters like the Chimera in the air."-Robotech.com Infopedia (via Wayback Machine March 2015).

2E RPG for the Masters Saga pg80-2 instances (don't say "poorly", but it is clear that is what they mean)
-"the Logan proved to be woefully inadequate against the war machines of the Robotech Masters." (to be fair they do say this was the result of being put into a role it was never intended for)
-"In the first few months of fighting the rate of attrition among Logan pilots was horrendous" (another way of saying it did poorly)
-"but a new mecha was desperately needed to deal with the enemy's superior military technology." (so the Logan wasn't up to the task, it was doing poorly in otherwords)

[Colonel Wolfe]

"The Logan fared poorly in the Second Robotech War, and it was quickly eclipsed by the AGACs in space, and by the non-transformable fighters like the Chimera in the air."-Robotech.com Infopedia (via Wayback Machine March 2015).

2E RPG for the Masters Saga pg80-2 instances (don't say "poorly", but it is clear that is what they mean)
-"the Logan proved to be woefully inadequate against the war machines of the Robotech Masters." (to be fair they do say this was the result of being put into a role it was never intended for)
-"In the first few months of fighting the rate of attrition among Logan pilots was horrendous" (another way of saying it did poorly)
-"but a new mecha was desperately needed to deal with the enemy's superior military technology." (so the Logan wasn't up to the task, it was doing poorly in otherwords)

https://web.archive.org/web/20120306041 ... .php?id=51
"the AGAC is a succesfull design, although it suffered grievous losses against the Robotech Masters, along with all other Earth mecha and ships."-

[Seto Kaiba]

Not in numbers, not really. Best that can be said is beam cannons and missiles. Exact payloads or performance figures are not really translatable in a game that defines volleys missiles as an attack rather than discreet items and speeds are defined as walking, flying or supersonic.

Ah, that's disappointing.

I don't disagree with FAST packs in an atmosphere either, but keeping them through re-entry doesn't seem plausible, as far as Robotech is concerned anyway.

It's workable in the OSM's opinion, and Tommy (and Robotech) usually bow to the judgment of the original creators on matters technological... as is carrying down hung ordinance on wing or body pylons.

It's not an open-and-shut case on those grounds, by any means, but if it were to come down to Tommy making a call I'd put money on him following the OSM line.

funny how i've not seen anyone actually say "the logan performed poorly"

http://web.archive.org/web/201203200719 ... .php?id=45

ShadowLogan already got the quotes in order, but here's a link directly to the Infopedia page from which the first one is drawn.

I agree what is depicted on screen isn't the everything that happens. Yet at the same time the pure off-screen stuff comes down to their say-so without any real basis in the series in this case.

Yes, but it is still within Harmony Gold's authority as the de facto author of the Robotech story to make that determination an official part of the setting.

What we see in the series is only a tiny portion of the actual conflict, filtered through the actions of a handful of people.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

"the AGAC is a succesfull design, although it suffered grievous losses against the Robotech Masters, along with all other Earth mecha and ships."-

Funny how people forget that little tidbit. Like somehow the Valkyrie or the Alpha would have fared so much better against the Bioroids....

[Tiree]

I've been thinking about a comment Seto made on how the vast differences in Tech Levels, and supposedly Macross out performing the other two arcs that make up Robotech.

In Macross - you have Humans who got a boost in technology through rebuilding Alien technology. It's pretty impressive. They have a few space ships, along with one capable of folding (again salvaged from an alien ship). By the end of it, they have a huge manufacturing capability, cloning capability, and very little human life. They built a colony (yet abandoned), but only after finding the Alien ship.
In Masters - Humans have already traveled the stars. Designed Mecha "On their Own". Achieved Fold like technology without Alien intervention. And apparently can amass armies that dwarfed their human counterpart in Macross.
In New Generation - Humans colonizing other planets, built transformable Mecha, built combining Mecha. Have a variety of ships, including energy shield technology. All this, without Alien influence. And this is all done within 50 years of the same time frame as Macross?

For some reason, I just don't buy that Macross is better...

Getting back on topic: What the RPG's big failure is the fact they did not produce books in the right order. Instead of Macross Core Book, you got TSC, the last arc of the series. Then they jumped back to the beginning. What is worse, is that they carried over stats and elements from the original line of roleplaying games (MDC hit locations anyone - why does an Alpha have both upper and lower limb locations, while a mecha practically twice its size only has one?)

[guardiandashi]

Getting back on topic: What the RPG's big failure is the fact they did not produce books in the right order. Instead of Macross Core Book, you got TSC, the last arc of the series. Then they jumped back to the beginning. What is worse, is that they carried over stats and elements from the original line of roleplaying games (MDC hit locations anyone - why does an Alpha have both upper and lower limb locations, while a mecha practically twice its size only has one?)

there is a certain measure of truth to this, however a couple points

the fundamental difference in the "tech" the humans are using comes down (at least in 1st edition) to several things.
1 the vf-1 series veritechs, were actually significantly tougher than most of the zentradi units effectively being in the position of "hero units" vs swarms of grunt/trash units. while this does not inherently make them "better" they are a good match up for the fights they typically get in, and so seem better.

2 the southern cross the hover tanks are effectively the earth force "hero units" and everything else on both sides are grunt/trash units, unfortunately trash vs trash tends to favor the side that has significantly larger numbers (the masters) therefore the earth forces get mauled ... badly, in addition the earth "hero" units are ground combat units, wheras the masters bioroids are designed (and or equipped) for 3dimensional and multi environment fights with the effect that often they are just better suited or close enough that they will dominate the smaller earth forces most of the time.

3 invid invasion era.
the earth forces were NOT for some stupid reason really set up for the attrition and swarm warfare that the invid specialize in (which is funny in a sad way) due to the fact that the zentradi (especially in the novels) are supposed to have had an enormous amount of experience either institutional and or individual experience fighting the invid, but its like the earth forces either ignored the information, and or didn't believe it, and so lost BADLY, before the series even starts.
the invid invasion starts with a "party" that builds themselves up as a kind of resistance to the new powers that are already in place. unfortunately their leader is Scott missile spam Bernard who as far as I can tell has never heard of the idea of "limited resources" or "conserve ammo, because there is likely to be another battle in a little while."

as far as the alphas arm having more "hit locations" that is mainly because the VF1 series only has 1 arm location (in part) because there is only 1 thing of note in the arms, (the gun pod and in some cases ("fast pack", or "super" add-ons) a limited number of additional missiles so the arm as a whole doesn't really matter...

[Kagashi]

Getting back on topic: What the RPG's big failure is the fact they did not produce books in the right order. Instead of Macross Core Book, you got TSC, the last arc of the series. Then they jumped back to the beginning. What is worse, is that they carried over stats and elements from the original line of roleplaying games (MDC hit locations anyone - why does an Alpha have both upper and lower limb locations, while a mecha practically twice its size only has one?)

Additionally, why does tSC mecha seem to abandon electronic attack for mecha designed when EA was still a viable military tactic? Why do Alphas and Betas NOT have +X to auto dodge in flight like every other veritech built previously in time? Why do 50 foot zentraedi battle pods have auto dodge in flight, but Invid mecha, whom was referenced to be very nimble and agile in the show, do not (many of which did in 1st edition)?

But the reality is, the entire 2d Edition is screwed up in lay out and setting anyway. In "tSC", we get the Invid detailed as the bad guy when in the movie, they are used as nothing more as a plot device to move on to the next bad guy, the Haydonites. Likewise, we get so little info on Haydonites, the manga size book cannot even use them in a game mechanic point of view because they didnt even have attacks per melee listed. Then with Deluxe, we get a little more info, but most of it is listed as "unknown", especially for the ships whom in the movie clearly had electronic attack properties, an aspect the book completely ignores.

Additionally, we are given mostly Regent War mecha (Bioroid Inteceptor, Silverback) and New Gen mecha (pre shadow Alphas, Condors, ect) as far as human forces are concerned. Save for the Super Cyclone, no other equipment in the actual movie was detailed. No Super Shadow fighters, no Super Betas, no Ark Angle colony ships, no Shimakake, no SDF3, no Garfish variants....all things that were what made the movie the movie.

That book gave us the wrong bad guys and the wrong equipment for the title of the book.

Save for Markers books, all subsequent books followed suit. Why in a book called "Genisis Pits" do we have Invid Occupied Earth, New Gen mecha and equipment? Why wasnt that in the New Gen book? Or tSC era space ships and space combat rules? Why wasnt that in tSC? Marines reprinted half of Genesis Pits anyway, why were the books just not one?

They should have started with Macross and made a Rifts World Book sized book. Then followed with Masters, New Gen, tSC, and Sentinels books and we should be done with setting and rules. Any substituent books should have been adventure books. Oh well, there is always 3rd Edition.

[Kagashi]

3 invid invasion era.
the earth forces were NOT for some stupid reason really set up for the attrition and swarm warfare that the invid specialize in (which is funny in a sad way) due to the fact that the zentradi (especially in the novels) are supposed to have had an enormous amount of experience either institutional and or individual experience fighting the invid, but its like the earth forces either ignored the information, and or didn't believe it, and so lost BADLY, before the series even starts.

Yep, but thats a Carl Macek issues, not an RPG issue. Does not make sense why Earth would have to search for the RT Masters home world when thats where the Zentraedi came from in the first place. Perhaps individual grunt clones might not know, but folks like Breetai and Exedore should. Additionally, as the Invid Sensor Nebula approached, the Masters detected it, but no Zentraedi did? And after the Masters were defeated, no Tirolian told Earth about what was coming? even if to increase their own chances for survival? It could have been explained better as to why the first episode of New Gen was already occupied. The Zentraedi should have been a huge source of intel for the UEEF, but were not utilized correctly against both the Masters and the Invid in both Tirol and Earth.

[Seto Kaiba]

I've been thinking about a comment Seto made on how the vast differences in Tech Levels, and supposedly Macross out performing the other two arcs that make up Robotech.

You've got a few misconceptions about the settings of the various original shows here...

In Macross - you have Humans who got a boost in technology through rebuilding Alien technology. It's pretty impressive. They have a few space ships, along with one capable of folding (again salvaged from an alien ship). By the end of it, they have a huge manufacturing capability, cloning capability, and very little human life. They built a colony (yet abandoned), but only after finding the Alien ship.

In Macross, you indeed do have humans who get a several thousand-year boost in technology through the reverse engineering of overtechnology from the wrecked Supervision Army gun destroyer. By the time the ship has been rebuilt 10 years later, they've gained an understanding of the advanced material sciences behind the ship's construction, the advanced higher-dimensional physics behind the operation of its power systems, gravity manipulation technology, its space fold system, FTL sensors and communication systems, and super dimenson energy weaponry, and much of the rest of its technology. Thanks to those lessons learned, they had almost a hundred and fifty interplanetary spacecraft in 2009, they were in the middle of building a fleet of fold-capable spacecraft including a second ~1km+ battleship, they'd constructed space colonies at the Lagrange points along with an immense shipyard at Earth-Moon L5, built permanent settlements on the Moon and Mars, solved Earth's energy crisis, and advanced weapons technology by leaps and bounds with laser, particle beam, and dimension weapons, created a clean alternative to nuclear weaponry for planetary defense, conventional explosives ten times as potent at today's technology, robotic weapons to deploy it all, drone fighters with AI, and hundreds more advancements.

During wartime, they developed numerous other advancements, including space-distortion energy shielding.

In Masters - Humans have already traveled the stars. Designed Mecha "On their Own". Achieved Fold like technology without Alien intervention. And apparently can amass armies that dwarfed their human counterpart in Macross.

In Southern Cross, humanity has indeed traveled to the stars... out of necessity... and a century later. Humans had destroyed Earth's biosphere with nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons near the end of the 21st century, forcing them to flee to Earth-like planets discovered in the Proxima Centauri and Epsilon Eridani systems using rudimentary faster-than-light warp technology. Their interstellar capability is limited to distances of only a few light years, and is rather unreliable and dangerous*.

Glorie, in the Epsilon Eridani system, is a relatively new and sparsely populated colony in 2120. Most of their technology isn't much advanced over ours today, with the chief advances being the military-only hover technology, laser weaponry, and the couple dozen warp-capable spacecraft and the various space fighters and ground-based war robots only recently introduced at the time they first encountered the Zor. The planet is defended by the Southern Cross Army, which is smaller by far than most national armies in the world today, with a few tens of thousands of troops tops. (The entire ATAC is just fifteen tank squads, about 400 troops, and many other groups for which we have Arming Doublet variations are individual specialist squads.) The main reason they're able to resist invasion by the more numerous and technologically superior Zor is that the Zor have been a peaceful society for so long that war is pretty much an alien concept to them and thus they're rather poorly equipped to actually fight one.


* In fact, a warp accident is exactly what kicks off the entire plot. The Zor are not aliens, they're the descendants of the original scouting party sent to evaluate and colonize Glorie, who were cut off from the rest of humanity when a warp accident sent them back in time, where they were exposed to the protozor flowers and formed a symbiotic relationship with them. Glorie was inhabitable because of the Zor... by their initial colonization efforts, their civil war that sent the planet plunging into nuclear winter, and the planet's subsequent recovery from same.

In New Generation - Humans colonizing other planets, built transformable Mecha, built combining Mecha. Have a variety of ships, including energy shield technology. All this, without Alien influence. And this is all done within 50 years of the same time frame as Macross?

In MOSPEADA, humanity has established small colonies on Mars and in orbit of a few other planets in the outer solar system in the years leading up to the Inbit invasion. However, most of the technology seen in the series is actually very new when the events of the series start in 2083. Humanity has some warships with basic gravity control for interior spaces (not antigrav flight), nuclear rocket engines able to transport them across interplanetary distances in a matter of weeks instead of months. Their transformable fighters and Ride Armors are brand new technology being deployed in combat for the first time, armed with conventional anti-tank missiles, lasers, and rudimentary particle beam weaponry. The mecha are all powered by hydrogen fuel cells, which have performance roughly equivalent to a normal turbine or combustion engine, and a greatly reduced lifespan when operating in robot mode (the Ride Armors are good for about 380km as bikes or 30 minutes of ride armor operating time). Their ships are very small, and functionally are little more than lightly armed boxes intended to move combat robots and ground troops from staging areas on the moon to Earth's surface. Late in the conflict, humanity begins to deploy larger-scale, more effective particle beam weapons (the synchrotron cannons) which fare much better than the smaller implementations and laser weapons.

Humans in MOSPEADA possess no faster-than-light technology, no antigrav technology, no energy shielding, no small-scale nuclear or dimensional power systems, etc. Even their jet engine technology is fairly weak, with most of their engines being about 1/2 the dry thrust (no afterburner) of a F-14 engine.

For some reason, I just don't buy that Macross is better...

Just goin' out on a limb here, but it may be because you don't have all the facts?

It's this disparity in the technical settings of the original shows that created the problem of a "true successor" to the VF-1 in the first place, and many of the other technological hiccoughs in the composite show. The first fighter to appear in the series is also its most high-spec, versatile, and powerful combat aircraft... trying to work around that created a big ol' mess.

If you were to look at the VF-1 Valkyrie vs. the TASC-01-SCF Logan vs. the AFC-01 Legioss, you'd find that the VF-1 outclasses the other two in practically every way... and the vast majority of that is attributable to the differences in tech setting. The VF-1 is the leader in operational diversity, power plant endurance, power plant output, main engine thrust, secondary engine thrust, thrust-to-weight ratio, top flight speed, service ceiling, diversity of armament, overall firepower, and a number of other categories.

Getting back on topic: What the RPG's big failure is the fact they did not produce books in the right order. Instead of Macross Core Book, you got TSC, the last arc of the series. Then they jumped back to the beginning. What is worse, is that they carried over stats and elements from the original line of roleplaying games (MDC hit locations anyone - why does an Alpha have both upper and lower limb locations, while a mecha practically twice its size only has one?)

That, yes, was a big mistake... though really, covering TSC at all was premature, considering we basically only have the first of the four planned episodes, which leaves almost no plot to work with and almost nothing in the way of new mecha or hints as to what the antagonists are really after.

The Super Shadow Fighter barely even fits in the succession anyway, as it's not even a production design and may not have been seriously intended for use in the first place. There was talk of a Gamma fighter to succeed the Alpha/Beta combo directly and to possibly be the TRUE successor to the VF-1 in-series, but it evaporated mid-development.

2 the southern cross the hover tanks are effectively the earth force "hero units" and everything else on both sides are grunt/trash units, unfortunately trash vs trash tends to favor the side that has significantly larger numbers (the masters) therefore the earth forces get mauled ... badly, in addition the earth "hero" units are ground combat units, wheras the masters bioroids are designed (and or equipped) for 3dimensional and multi environment fights with the effect that often they are just better suited or close enough that they will dominate the smaller earth forces most of the time.

Part of the reason the Masters Saga feels a bit off is that Robotech's writers tried to recast the Zor Lords' lack of understanding of war (and lack of preparedness to actually fight a war) as the Robotech Masters being drastically short on viable power sources...

The hero mecha in Southern Cross did as well as they did because the Zor straight-up stunk at warfare. (I privately suspect that, had they been allowed to finish the series as intended, the original Bioroids would have been revealed to not even be military hardware.)

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

2 the southern cross the hover tanks are effectively the earth force "hero units" and everything else on both sides are grunt/trash units, unfortunately trash vs trash tends to favor the side that has significantly larger numbers (the masters) therefore the earth forces get mauled

Uh, no. The United Earth Forces vastly outnumber The Masters as is seen on screen. The difference is The Masters' tech level is so far beyond everyone else in Robotech. It was their technology that allowed them to dominate on the battlefield. They have a mecha (the Bioroid) that can survive multiple hits that would cripple any other, can do maneuvers that would kill anyone not in an acceleration couch of some sort (back flips, front flips all the while the pilot sits in a sphere with no restraints), is controlled totally by the nervous system of the operator (when it is controlled by the operator and not the Clone Masters or The Mistress of the Cosmic Harp) and is strong beyond belief (can lift another vehicle more than x2 its weight, tackle and knock over that same vehicle in battloid and punch THROUGH armor on a ship).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

And after the Masters were defeated, no Tirolian told Earth about what was coming? even if to increase their own chances for survival? It could have been explained better as to why the first episode of New Gen was already occupied. The Zentraedi should have been a huge source of intel for the UEEF, but were not utilized correctly against both the Masters and the Invid in both Tirol and Earth.

Well, first of all, the dialogue seriously implies The Invid Invasion happened literally within 24 hours of Zor Prime's ultimate sacrifice. The Masters', in earlier episodes, make numerous statements concerning the impending Invid Invasion and why the humans are not preparing for their arrival. This bears out later dialogue (Enter Marlene and Frostbite to be exact) that no one knew who the enemy was when they invaded (literally on top of The Masters and UEF blasting each other in orbit and Earth-side) and that it came a day after an evacuation notice was ordered for Denver (which is shown in The Invid Connection).

[ShadowLogan]

"the AGAC is a succesfull design, although it suffered grievous losses against the Robotech Masters, along with all other Earth mecha and ships."-

The part about the AGAC losses against the Masters is valid, however I don't think I would call it a successful design. Both the Logan and VHT appear on screen to be far more effective IMHO.

The last part "all other Earth mecha and ships" though isn't exactly true. We have nothing to base the outcome on for mecha that are not part of the ASC force structure (ex Alpha, VF-1). That doesn't mean I think the ASC would be better off with Alphas or VF-1s, only that statement likely applies to Earth mecha and ships in use by the ASC, and even there some designs are going to be more successful than others.

Yes, but it is still within Harmony Gold's authority as the de facto author of the Robotech story to make that determination an official part of the setting.

What we see in the series is only a tiny portion of the actual conflict, filtered through the actions of a handful of people.

It may be their authority, but are they letting their own personal bias influence their interpretation of the RT story or not?

I would think that what happens on screen, even if it is only a small portion of the actual conflict, should guide assessments. Otherwise you get a disconnect or bias.

It's this disparity in the technical settings of the original shows that created the problem of a "true successor" to the VF-1 in the first place, and many of the other technological hiccoughs in the composite show. The first fighter to appear in the series is also its most high-spec, versatile, and powerful combat aircraft... trying to work around that created a big ol' mess.

I've said on numerous occasions though that this disparity though is forced by holding to much to the OSM background info. If HG actually took the time to do a blank slate approach, the awkwardness could go away since they could properly consider development in universe instead of trying to shoehorn stuff in to make it fit awkwardly as it does.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes, but it is still within Harmony Gold's authority as the de facto author of the Robotech story to make that determination an official part of the setting.

What we see in the series is only a tiny portion of the actual conflict, filtered through the actions of a handful of people.

It may be their authority, but are they letting their own personal bias influence their interpretation of the RT story or not?

I would think that what happens on screen, even if it is only a small portion of the actual conflict, should guide assessments. Otherwise you get a disconnect or bias.

Personally, I don't think it is... I think it's partly because the OSM takes the view that the Logan was faring so poorly against the Zor Bioroids that the Southern Cross Army replaced it (thus the mid-season upgrade), and partly an effort to throw the UEDF a bone by attributing the curbstomping they were on the receiving end of to being outmatched the entire time instead of just right at the war's end when the gloves came off and Jeanne/Dana and Seifriet/Zor screwed up. It's a little more dignified for them if the Masters are actually putting in some effort the entire time, rather than just messing with them until they very end.

We only see a portion of the war as it affects the soldiers of a single, fairly small unit... it's a losing war for them too, so it's really not unreasonable that there are significant offscreen losses.

It's this disparity in the technical settings of the original shows that created the problem of a "true successor" to the VF-1 in the first place, and many of the other technological hiccoughs in the composite show. The first fighter to appear in the series is also its most high-spec, versatile, and powerful combat aircraft... trying to work around that created a big ol' mess.

I've said on numerous occasions though that this disparity though is forced by holding to much to the OSM background info. If HG actually took the time to do a blank slate approach, the awkwardness could go away since they could properly consider development in universe instead of trying to shoehorn stuff in to make it fit awkwardly as it does.

... and I've said on many of the same numerous occasions that this disparity is an unfortunate consequence of hacking together the three shows that make up Robotech. NOT using something based on the stats from the people who designed the mecha would ultimately create more problems than it solves... as it has every time a Robotech licensee has poked its oar in and attempted to rationalize something in the show that doesn't directly make sense (e.g. the SDF-2's whereabouts, the Protoculture Factory, so on and so forth).

[Colonel Wolfe]

That doesn't mean I think the ASC would be better off with Alphas or VF-1s, only that statement likely applies to Earth mecha and ships in use by the ASC, and even there some designs are going to be more successful than others.

The last part means the earth wouldn't have been better off with Alpha's or VF-1's, as both exist at the time of the Master's Assault and HG used the Word "ALL". All would include any design that pre-date the assault by the Masters... Destroids, VF-1's, Alpha's... pretty much everything fell to the Master's

[Kagashi]

And after the Masters were defeated, no Tirolian told Earth about what was coming? even if to increase their own chances for survival? It could have been explained better as to why the first episode of New Gen was already occupied. The Zentraedi should have been a huge source of intel for the UEEF, but were not utilized correctly against both the Masters and the Invid in both Tirol and Earth.

Well, first of all, the dialogue seriously implies The Invid Invasion happened literally within 24 hours of Zor Prime's ultimate sacrifice. The Masters', in earlier episodes, make numerous statements concerning the impending Invid Invasion and why the humans are not preparing for their arrival. This bears out later dialogue (Enter Marlene and Frostbite to be exact) that no one knew who the enemy was when they invaded (literally on top of The Masters and UEF blasting each other in orbit and Earth-side) and that it came a day after an evacuation notice was ordered for Denver (which is shown in The Invid Connection).

Ill need to go back and rewatch the first episode, but the Robotech.com timeline has the masters being destroyed in June 2030 and the Invasion happening sometime in 2031 (Wildstorm Comics reconfirms this date when Dana and Bowie evacuate on a Garfish...also animated in LLA). That gives humans 6-18 months to learn of a third major alien force from either their Zentraedi allies, or from new found allies like Musica whom would know who the Invid are.

My point being, the dialogue as Macek wrote it, does not make sense for the Invid to be completely unknown to humans, especially when the Pioneer mission left in 2022 (gives them eight years to encounter the Regent), having Zentraedi allies since 2013 (Exedore and Breetai had provided a lot of intel already about the Zentraedi and the Masters, why not the Invid?), and Tirolian allies since June 2030 (The high command, science, and clone masters were all racing to get the Protoculture matrix before the Invid would arrive, Musica even mentions them and she obviously wants to hang around Bowie...surly she would tell Bowie, who would report up the chain, of the Masters arch enemy who is looking for the very thing the Masters and the Zentraedi previously were).

For the Invid to be a completely unknown adversary in 2031 is not very believable. But again, this is not the fault of the RPG, it is the story in which the RPG is based on.

[ShadowLogan]

The last part means the earth wouldn't have been better off with Alpha's or VF-1's, as both exist at the time of the Master's Assault and HG used the Word "ALL". All would include any design that pre-date the assault by the Masters... Destroids, VF-1's, Alpha's... pretty much everything fell to the Master's

I disagree. "All" can also mean what was just in use in the ASC-era inventory, which did not include Alphas or VF-1s for the UEDF since the UEEF had near (if not complete) exclusive claims to the Alpha. Even the returning space forces didn't use them.

think it's partly because the OSM takes the view that the Logan was faring so poorly against the Zor Bioroids that the Southern Cross Army replaced it (thus the mid-season upgrade), and partly an effort to throw the UEDF a bone by attributing the curbstomping they were on the receiving end of to being outmatched the entire time instead of just right at the war's end when the gloves came off and Jeanne/Dana and Seifriet/Zor screwed up. It's a little more dignified for them if the Masters are actually putting in some effort the entire time, rather than just messing with them until they very end.

But there is no reason to carry that view over from the OSM though. They had other options to explain the shift in RT.

Even in the OSM the Logan wasn't faring poorly on screen. In the OSM it looks more like variable form mecha aren't very common in the inventory until the Auran arrives.

NOT using something based on the stats from the people who designed the mecha would ultimately create more problems than it solves...

As far as dimensions go, I agree that is about the only thing worth while in the OSM since that is what the mecha would have been drawn at.

However in terms of performance, they can certainly go against the OSM and explain it away much easier as the pilots holding back due to the situation (mission, altitude, fuel considerations, etc). Since on screen officially we don't have cross-saga encounters comparisons are completely internal, so a balancing act can be done for cross saga comparison. Etc. This is all stuff that takes into account a common technology history instead of trying to jam 3-unconnected tech histories together to make something legible which is further convoluted by post series sidestory (Sentinels ex).

For the Invid to be a completely unknown adversary in 2031 is not very believable. But again, this is not the fault of the RPG, it is the story in which the RPG is based on.

The problem is alot of issues arrise from the post 85ep Series development, not the series itself (not to say it doesn't have issues). Series does establish the Invid as unknown, "new", and Invid arriving a day after Denver is evacuated (which does happen in the show). Post series developments though push this back and ignore cues from the show.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The last part means the earth wouldn't have been better off with Alpha's or VF-1's,

I disagree. "All" can also mean what was just in use in the ASC-era inventory, which did not include Alphas or VF-1s for the UEDF since the UEEF had near (if not complete) exclusive claims to the Alpha. Even the returning space forces didn't use them.

Then This return us to the Narrative that "anything" other than the ASC units would have easily defeated the Master's, its been been claimed on the forums that a single Oberth would have decimated the entire Master's fleet, that a single VF-1 would have done the Job of the entire 15th's hover-tank squad.-
The Difference being We can theorize the Garfish design dates back to the War against the Master's since it and the stockpile of equipment from the episode "Ghost-town" dates "Clear back to the war against the Robotech masters"... these geriatrics all have CVR-3 armour and Gallant-H90's. We also know the Fuel-cells that are used exclusively by the Alpha, cyclone and Beta are being stored inside Denver, a City abandoned since the day before the Invid arrived.... The Scope of the Middle chapter focuses so closly on the 15th that its hard to confirm the existence of half of the power-armours and Battiloids detailed in the production-designs, much less what should be present based on combining it with the Zentradi show and the Invid Show...

[Seto Kaiba]

That gives humans 6-18 months to learn of a third major alien force from either their Zentraedi allies, or from new found allies like Musica whom would know who the Invid are.

You'd think they would've found out sometime between 2012-ish and 2022, when they were preparing to set out into deep space. It would've been rather silly of them to not shake the Zentradi down for details on their former employers and their arch enemies.

(I think it would honestly explain a lot if the UEDF and UEEF designed their mecha at the size they did in the expectation of having to fight the Invid or Robotech Masters. It doesn't make a lot of sense to assert that the Alpha or Logan were designed to fight Zentradi, when they're so much smaller than the Zentradi and their mecha... it puts them at a big disadvantage.)

But there is no reason to carry that view over from the OSM though. They had other options to explain the shift in RT.

We have to remember that Robotech was not, no matter how much some people might wish otherwise, produced with an eye towards making a standalone story entirely separate from the originals. To a certain extent, following the OSM line is sensible and fits with the story they're telling.

Even in the OSM the Logan wasn't faring poorly on screen. In the OSM it looks more like variable form mecha aren't very common in the inventory until the Auran arrives.

Source material problems, yeah.

In Southern Cross, war robots have seen a relatively thorough proliferation but they're not terribly handy. Variable mecha in the series are more recent introductions than their fixed-form brethren, and only the Armored Corps (ATAC and TASC) got them. I would guess that it's probably a cost problem, as it is in many other shows from the period (and most mecha shows with a variable mecha, period).

The RPG tried to rationalize that for Robotech as the UEDF/ASC being stuck trying to make the metaphorical lemonade after all the resources, talented designers, etc. were snapped up by the UEEF. It takes a little of the accountability for the disastrous loss of Earth off the heads of the soldiers themselves and shifts it to the UEEF brass... they left Earth in the hands of a poorly equipped and ill-disciplined rabble of soldiers who weren't good enough for the UEEF, and it came back to bite them in the arse.

As far as dimensions go, I agree that is about the only thing worth while in the OSM since that is what the mecha would have been drawn at.

Changing around capabilities would raise the inevitable questions as to why those capabilities weren't expressed in the show or why they weren't used at times they would have been advantageous... like the earlier "the Alpha and Beta have hardpoints" argument. It's better to avoid opening that particular Pandora's Box if at all possible... and so far, Harmony Gold has largely resisted the temptation to do so.

What they SHOULD have done is, instead of having the Super Shadow Fighter, they should have used the Gamma Fighter and just made a clean break from secondhand content.

That way the whole "successor" thing would've become academic, especially if the Gamma Fighter was presented the way it was talked up... an Alpha-esque design but with VF-1-tier high performance.

[ShadowLogan]

We have to remember that Robotech was not, no matter how much some people might wish otherwise, produced with an eye towards making a standalone story entirely separate from the originals. To a certain extent, following the OSM line is sensible and fits with the story they're telling.

I'm not entirely sure that is true. RT's 85 episodes exist because the storyline in the originals is to short for the envisioned broadcast (standards back then where 65epiosdes for how they wanted to do it, not 36 or 25 or 23), so they have to change aspects of the originals to allow them to fit together better. Otherwise they could have just used RT as a "banner name" that covered several independent shows/stories ("Super Mario Brothers Super Show" for ex that came out later, they ran Legond of Zelda and Mario Brothers Cartoons depending on the day of the week, or Marvel's "Action Universe" that was a single block that dealt with multiple shows, etc).

If they are prepared to make changes to the story to allow them to be integrated together, and they had to given the various dates each saga is originally set in, not to mention the location is changed to make it Earth. They essentially have established that they do not need to follow the OSM by their chosen story format. Which should really limit what OSM information is actually valid.

The RPG tried to rationalize that for Robotech as the UEDF/ASC being stuck trying to make the metaphorical lemonade after all the resources, talented designers, etc. were snapped up by the UEEF.

I don't think its just the RPG, TPTB seem to have that same view point. The problem is that Sentinels material originally does have the UEEF using Hovertanks and Logans, so it isn't stricklty a UEDF:ASC thing unless they got stuck with the equivalent of "foreing market" version like some States do that sell military hardware (ex Russia).

This might actually appear to be the case with the Logan given in Senitnels comics someone posted recently using the Logan it has concealed Alpha MM-60 style launchers, but the UEDF:ASC doesn't use them.

Changing around capabilities would raise the inevitable questions as to why those capabilities weren't expressed in the show or why they weren't used at times they would have been advantageous...

As I said though it can be done and presented in such a way that makes sense. In terms of general discussion it can't be done easily, but it can certainly be done on specific examples. But it can also cut the other way, you have to explain why certain capabilities where abandoned or not even considered on later designs (ex Super/Fast Pack parts).

What they SHOULD have done is, instead of having the Super Shadow Fighter, they should have used the Gamma Fighter and just made a clean break from secondhand content.

I have mixed reactions to this.

Yes it would be better to have simply gone with the Gamma (though I think they should have moved TSC itself several years POST Ep85). Though it legally it might not be "different enough" from the VF-4 in Macross to avoid troubles for an animated project. Though the basic concept is sound with going with a new design or evolving an existing design they can work with.

However introducing the Super approach is still valid since it creates more continuity between the arcs. One does have to wonder why the UEDF:ASC didn't just go with FAST Packs for the Logan, or the UEEF look at FAST Packs to address the Alpha shortcomings instead of the Beta.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm not entirely sure that is true. RT's 85 episodes exist because the storyline in the originals is to short for the envisioned broadcast (standards back then where 65epiosdes for how they wanted to do it, not 36 or 25 or 23), so they have to change aspects of the originals to allow them to fit together better.

This is true, but it's also true that it wasn't done with a coherent plan in mind... the people who did the edit and dub cheerfully cop to it being the mother of all rush jobs, without enough time to even consistency-check the scripts that were being penned.

If they are prepared to make changes to the story to allow them to be integrated together, and they had to given the various dates each saga is originally set in, not to mention the location is changed to make it Earth. They essentially have established that they do not need to follow the OSM by their chosen story format. Which should really limit what OSM information is actually valid.

To a certain extent, yes... but they have to explain why the Logan is being disposed of in favor of the AGACs, and "just because" is not going to fly. Militaries don't spend fortunes replacing aircraft for the sheer pleasure of spending taxpayer money, they have to actually have a justification for doing it. If you have a new craft rushed into production and deployment, that's usually because the craft you have in the field is getting clobbered because it's not up to snuff.

What other rational explanation is there for them to completely replace the Logan in such a short period of time? Normally, such a switchover occurs over years, sometimes decades, before a platform is completely retired.

I don't think its just the RPG, TPTB seem to have that same view point. The problem is that Sentinels material originally does have the UEEF using Hovertanks and Logans, so it isn't stricklty a UEDF:ASC thing unless they got stuck with the equivalent of "foreing market" version like some States do that sell military hardware (ex Russia).

I think they're actually going with a version of Leonard's complaint from Sentinels itself... that the UEEF was screwing him so badly he'd be hard-pressed to defend Earth from a flock of ducklings. That same aborted series was also the one that established that the UEEF was the one hogging all the best toys and best troops. (That series also didn't/couldn't use all the designs of the two relevant sagas, so the comic's after-the-fact addition is a fun little nod to a legal impossibility, but not entirely reliable with HG's staff playing fast and loose with sourcing.)

[Seto Kaiba]

Changing around capabilities would raise the inevitable questions as to why those capabilities weren't expressed in the show or why they weren't used at times they would have been advantageous...

As I said though it can be done and presented in such a way that makes sense. In terms of general discussion it can't be done easily, but it can certainly be done on specific examples. But it can also cut the other way, you have to explain why certain capabilities where abandoned or not even considered on later designs (ex Super/Fast Pack parts).

It almost invariably involves an awful lot of verbal calisthenics to get around the various problems with that approach... it crops up almost everywhere in the various Robotech fanfic technical references.

For the few cases where we have to explain why various things DIDN'T get carried over, the way the three original shows were put together provides some convenient coincidental explanations from the OSM for much of it. You don't see space-use equipment like FAST packs for the Logan because it's a close air support plane, and the Beta is a set of FAST packs that took on a life of its own.

What they SHOULD have done is, instead of having the Super Shadow Fighter, they should have used the Gamma Fighter and just made a clean break from secondhand content.

Yes it would be better to have simply gone with the Gamma (though I think they should have moved TSC itself several years POST Ep85). Though it legally it might not be "different enough" from the VF-4 in Macross to avoid troubles for an animated project. Though the basic concept is sound with going with a new design or evolving an existing design they can work with.

However introducing the Super approach is still valid since it creates more continuity between the arcs. One does have to wonder why the UEDF:ASC didn't just go with FAST Packs for the Logan, or the UEEF look at FAST Packs to address the Alpha shortcomings instead of the Beta.

Really, I don't think the Gamma fighter was anywhere near close enough to the VF-X-4 design from Macross to pose any legal problems whatsoever.

The Super Shadow Fighter might create a little superficial inter-arc continuity, but it's doing more harm than good. The FAST packs themselves just raise awkward questions, since the design is very poorly thought-out and doesn't really add anything to the fighter's capabilities... yet they're said to push the Alpha's performance all the way to the limits of its design strength. They're also a highly visible symptom of the problem undermining Shadow Chronicles as a whole... instead of trying to give Robotech its own identity beyond the borrowed OSM, they're making Robotech a story less than the sum of its parts by obsessively trying to be American Macross instead.

The VF-13 Gamma fighter would've been an opportunity for a nice, clean break from the problematic, stitched-together technical continuity of Robotech's television series... sadly, now a missed opportunity.

[ShadowLogan]

For the few cases where we have to explain why various things DIDN'T get carried over, the way the three original shows were put together provides some convenient coincidental explanations from the OSM for much of it. You don't see space-use equipment like FAST packs for the Logan because it's a close air support plane, and the Beta is a set of FAST packs that took on a life of its own.

The Alpha, yes it has the Beta but remember the Beta gets canned in 2022 and resurrected in the mid 2030s, and the Alpha is supposedly in use in the 2020s so you have a decade or more where the FAST PACKs would have provided a solution to some of its short comings.

One also has to wonder what the UEDF:ASC used in space since the AGAC didn't become operation until 2029, and the Logan had been in service for over a decade by this point (per 2E RPG) and no indication of what they actually used (Alpha's seem to be a near UEEF exclusive by the 2E RPG). If the Logan was performing as poorly as they say, then it would seem to make more sense to update the Logan with Fast packs than go with the AGAC since it would be quicker (and going by the RPG 1E/2E, the Logan gets better guns overall, speed/armor/missiles can be augmented by FAST Pack system).

Really, I don't think the Gamma fighter was anywhere near close enough to the VF-X-4 design from Macross to pose any legal problems whatsoever.

I agree it has that Conbat look to it, but the Conbat also has that VF-X-4 look too. It might come down to is it different enough?

hey're also a highly visible symptom of the problem undermining Shadow Chronicles as a whole... instead of trying to give Robotech its own identity beyond the borrowed OSM, they're making Robotech a story less than the sum of its parts by obsessively trying to be American Macross instead.

That is a problem, but they have gotten so much in the mindset of using the OSM instead of giving RT its own identity by this point they can't make the transition from the 85ep work to building up on it. That is another part of why I think the OSM shouldn't be used even in the 85ep, it has created a crutch they don't want to give up on. It might have been easier for them if TSC was set several years in the future post-Ep85 instead of tieing directly to it.

[Alrik Vas]

That would require original mecha designs, and they don't want to, or can't afford to, pay for that.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Alpha, yes it has the Beta but remember the Beta gets canned in 2022 and resurrected in the mid 2030s, and the Alpha is supposedly in use in the 2020s so you have a decade or more where the FAST PACKs would have provided a solution to some of its short comings.

The Alpha's not really used as a space fighter in the Sentinels period's existing depictions, so I don't really see any compelling requirement for it to need space-use enhancement equipment.

One also has to wonder what the UEDF:ASC used in space since the AGAC didn't become operation until 2029, and the Logan had been in service for over a decade by this point (per 2E RPG) and no indication of what they actually used (Alpha's seem to be a near UEEF exclusive by the 2E RPG).

Based on the Infopedia, probably one of the non-transformable fighters... possibly the one the RPG calls the Chimera.

If the Logan was performing as poorly as they say, then it would seem to make more sense to update the Logan with Fast packs than go with the AGAC since it would be quicker (and going by the RPG 1E/2E, the Logan gets better guns overall, speed/armor/missiles can be augmented by FAST Pack system).

Unless the disparity in performance was too great to be remedied by bolt-on hardware (if the Logan was even designed to accept such).

I agree it has that Conbat look to it, but the Conbat also has that VF-X-4 look too. It might come down to is it different enough?

All told, it looks nothing at all like a VF-X-4... I think they'd be in the clear.

That is a problem, but they have gotten so much in the mindset of using the OSM instead of giving RT its own identity by this point they can't make the transition from the 85ep work to building up on it. That is another part of why I think the OSM shouldn't be used even in the 85ep, it has created a crutch they don't want to give up on. It might have been easier for them if TSC was set several years in the future post-Ep85 instead of tieing directly to it.

It's not a case of using OSM in stats or not... the problem with RTSC is that it's literally a Macross: Do You Remember Love? crossover fic with the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica replacing the Zentradi, acted out with MOSPEADA designs.

Basing stats and other info on the OSM is fine and you can do that while taking the plot to new and different places. THIS is just a depressing attempt to make an unofficial Macross sequel, because Macross is what the fans buy.

[ShadowLogan]

The Alpha's not really used as a space fighter in the Sentinels period's existing depictions, so I don't really see any compelling requirement for it to need space-use enhancement equipment.

But it is the space environment that results in the need for the Beta even in 2030s, so it seems likely the UEEF was using the Alpha for space operations.

Based on the Infopedia, probably one of the non-transformable fighters... possibly the one the RPG calls the Chimera.

I meant in terms of Veritechs. The UEEF in the same period could also be said to rely on nt-fighters given the Carpenter Figther, the Conbat, and the Wolfe-Flashback fighter.

Unless the disparity in performance was too great to be remedied by bolt-on hardware (if the Logan was even designed to accept such).

Performance wise in the 2E RPG. I just got done with a comparison (was curious after posting). Assuming the Logan's bolt-on hardware in terms of speed and mobility (combat bonuses) is the same as the VF-1's system (since its the only example in 2E RPG) in the 2E RPG-verse measurements:
-mobility the Logan equals or exceeds the AGAC in primary combat bonuses (you have to go with secondary stuff like Pull punch and disarm to get the AGAC to beat the Logan in this state). Interestingly the Logan's MC:E skill advances FASTER than the AGAC, and grants an extra action per melee in baseline. It should also be noted the Logan can get by without the mobility bonuses the VF-1 enjoys from the Fast Packs, so it could be reduced or eliminated and the AGAC would still lose overall (it's one advantage is in terms of regular dodge, and a +1 difference at that)
-speed, that 50% boost to the Logan's space speed results in it being 17% faster in fighter mode than an AGAC. It's battloid mode is 75% faster

That assumes the speed/mobility transfer 1:1. The weapons payload, no way the Logan is packing in those extra 46 SRMs. Though it should still see some improvement in carriage capacity. How much depends on how it scales or how one wants to figure what the Logan FAST PACK specs would actually be.

The AGAC v Logan in terms of guns. Its messy. The Logan has better secondary weapon (nose cannons). In terms of "gunpods", its a mixed bag because the AGAC hits harder (75% max) but it has less than 1/2 the range (which IMHO means getting hit more), then there is the payload (tied in directly vs recharging the internal capacitor) favors the AGAC. This assumes the FAST PACK doesn't alter the gun equation.

Main Body Armor does favor the AGAC, though that assumes the FAST PACK's don't alter it somehow like the GBP-1S does on the VF-1. Though given the range deficiency of the AGAC to a Logan in terms of guns, the extra armor seems like a wash since it has to close to within gun range of the Bioroid to really use its heavy gun (Logan can engage in gun fight outside the range of the Bioroids).

the problem with RTSC is that it's literally a Macross: Do You Remember Love? crossover fic with the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica replacing the Zentradi, acted out with MOSPEADA designs.

I see the BSG influence in the story (never cared for the remake, which was popular at the time they made TSC), but I'm not sure I see anything that smacks of DYRL influence (either the movie or M2).

[Seto Kaiba]

But it is the space environment that results in the need for the Beta even in 2030s, so it seems likely the UEEF was using the Alpha for space operations.

Part of it, yes... but as the RPG has it an acceptable solution emerged in the Conbat space fighter, and the need for a space booster for the Alpha didn't rear its head again until 2035.

I meant in terms of Veritechs. The UEEF in the same period could also be said to rely on nt-fighters given the Carpenter Figther, the Conbat, and the Wolfe-Flashback fighter.

Is a VF necessarily a requirement for the space forces? Especially when those forces are lightly equipped to begin with?

Performance wise in the 2E RPG. I just got done with a comparison (was curious after posting). Assuming the Logan's bolt-on hardware in terms of speed and mobility (combat bonuses) is the same as the VF-1's system (since its the only example in 2E RPG) in the 2E RPG-verse measurements:
-mobility the Logan equals or exceeds the AGAC in primary combat bonuses (you have to go with secondary stuff like Pull punch and disarm to get the AGAC to beat the Logan in this state). Interestingly the Logan's MC:E skill advances FASTER than the AGAC, and grants an extra action per melee in baseline. It should also be noted the Logan can get by without the mobility bonuses the VF-1 enjoys from the Fast Packs, so it could be reduced or eliminated and the AGAC would still lose overall (it's one advantage is in terms of regular dodge, and a +1 difference at that)
-speed, that 50% boost to the Logan's space speed results in it being 17% faster in fighter mode than an AGAC. It's battloid mode is 75% faster

That assumes the speed/mobility transfer 1:1. The weapons payload, no way the Logan is packing in those extra 46 SRMs. Though it should still see some improvement in carriage capacity. How much depends on how it scales or how one wants to figure what the Logan FAST PACK specs would actually be.

That's a pretty big assumption... especially considering the FAST packs you're modeling this on are larger than the Logan itself.

the problem with RTSC is that it's literally a Macross: Do You Remember Love? crossover fic with the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica replacing the Zentradi, acted out with MOSPEADA designs.

I see the BSG influence in the story (never cared for the remake, which was popular at the time they made TSC), but I'm not sure I see anything that smacks of DYRL influence (either the movie or M2).

It becomes more obvious when you look at the leaked outline for Parts II thru IV... Marcus is Hikaru, Janice is Minmay, Maia is Misa, and the rest line up rather obviously.

[ShadowLogan]

Part of it, yes... but as the RPG has it an acceptable solution emerged in the Conbat space fighter, and the need for a space booster for the Alpha didn't rear its head again until 2035.

The Conbat though requires the Condor to be viable and was a strain (pg131m TSC) on resources to have two platforms to do the same job a VF could do in one. Though I have to wonder what would have happened with Conbats if they installed turrets to assist them.

And per text of 2035: ",the renewed need for a modular, reuable booster patck for the Alpha Fighter had become abundantly clear...This became more and more of a logistical nightmare as the UEEF Pioneer Expedition made contact with more worlds and the Alphas were expected to operate in and out of atmosphere on a regular basis."-pg111m TSC. 2035 is when they finally decided something needed to be done, the Alpha was being called upon to operate in/out of atmosphere on a regular basis by this point.

Is a VF necessarily a requirement for the space forces? Especially when those forces are lightly equipped to begin with?

I would say no personally, but we see that the UEDF:ASC in 2029-30 and the UEEF in 2042-4 had come to the conclusion that they where the solution to dealing with intercepts by enemy mecha (Bioroids and Invid). The UEDF:ASC was testing AGACs in space in 2029 with over 20 distinct units as I recall in Ep37, even the UEDF:RDF had some VFs in the ARMD and SDF-1 airwings. That to me says that the UEDF/UEEF would definitely shoot for even a small presence of VFs in the air wings instead of relying exclusively on nt-fighter/mecha.

That's a pretty big assumption... especially considering the FAST packs you're modeling this on are larger than the Logan itself.

Not really, at least by the 2E RPG technology baseline. I am not trying to cram the same weapons load in, that I agree can't be done, but getting the speed and mobility boost is certainly something that can be done if we consider the OMS-2 and AJP-01 system the UEDF:ASC uses for the VHT and nt-Bs.

The mobility increase by these systems grant mobility increases to mecha heavier than a Logan. It is true that those bonuses are less than the FAST PACK, but the Logan is easily lighter than the systems those boosters are intended to work on (lightest is 14tons). So netting the same bonuses in terms of mobility is certainly plausible. Especially when you consider the FAST PACK is 8tons, and the ASC systems are 4tons and >1/2ton respectively pushing around heavier mecha than a VF-1. So clearly the mobility bonuses are plausible, and I might actually be conservative here.

In terms of speed, the OMS-2 can rocket the VHT-1 to a speed of 2529kph temporarily, or 352kph cruise. A VHT-1 has approximately x4 the dry mass of a Logan, and is dimensionally smaller than a Logan. So giving the Logan an extra ~1500kph (or 50% boost in speed) seems highly possible. Since the cruise speed could be increased by a factor of 4 (four times lighter), or 1408kph. This doesn't consider the boost speed the OMS-2 can perform and what the effect might be if we trade that capacity for a bit more cruise. Of course we also just use the 2529kph directly to show that the UEDF:ASC has the technology to make a smaller and light package for the Logan than the VF-1 that is superior (8tons vs 4tons to move 10+ vs 6.5 tons respectively).

So no it is not a big assumption to be able to create FAST PACKS for the Logan that offer similar speed and mobility increases. The full weapons loadout of a VF-1 Super, no it isn't going to happen that I do not even claim.

It becomes more obvious when you look at the leaked outline for Parts II thru IV

So it depends on stuff that hasn't happened yet (and likely won't) and could change in future if it ever happens.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Conbat though requires the Condor to be viable and was a strain (pg131m TSC) on resources to have two platforms to do the same job a VF could do in one. Though I have to wonder what would have happened with Conbats if they installed turrets to assist them.

For a planetary assault, yeah... but the Conbat is said to be an adequate space fighter on its own.

2035 is when they finally decided something needed to be done, the Alpha was being called upon to operate in/out of atmosphere on a regular basis by this point.

The way it's worded makes it sound like the Alphas being requested to operate in space was a relatively new request... which, it must be admitted, it would be based on the RPG's date for the design entering production.

I would say no personally, but we see that the UEDF:ASC in 2029-30 and the UEEF in 2042-4 had come to the conclusion that they where the solution to dealing with intercepts by enemy mecha (Bioroids and Invid). The UEDF:ASC was testing AGACs in space in 2029 with over 20 distinct units as I recall in Ep37, even the UEDF:RDF had some VFs in the ARMD and SDF-1 airwings. That to me says that the UEDF/UEEF would definitely shoot for even a small presence of VFs in the air wings instead of relying exclusively on nt-fighter/mecha.

You'll hear no disagreement from me.

Not really, at least by the 2E RPG technology baseline. I am not trying to cram the same weapons load in, that I agree can't be done, but getting the speed and mobility boost is certainly something that can be done if we consider the OMS-2 and AJP-01 system the UEDF:ASC uses for the VHT and nt-Bs.

That's not really designed for a VF's use tho... that's more of a jump kit for battloids.

It becomes more obvious when you look at the leaked outline for Parts II thru IV

So it depends on stuff that hasn't happened yet (and likely won't) and could change in future if it ever happens.

Admittedly, yeah... with all future Robotech development effectively canceled following the implosion of the Kickstarter for Robotech Academy, that would make it of rather dubious applicability. Still, if you read the outline from the period where Harmony Gold's plan was a new episode every two years, it's clear they were basically making a Macross fan film with an assortment of MOSPEADA designs. It's bad. Real bad.

[Alrik Vas]

Always hated the Logan.

I'm curious about this Gamma fighter, though. Where do they talk about that?

[ShadowLogan]

For a planetary assault, yeah... but the Conbat is said to be an adequate space fighter on its own.

As long as it doesn't have to face another mecha with close in capabilities, so it really is only good against others of its own kind. Since mecha (as HG defines it) seem to be on the interaction block, the Conbat's utility is more limited than a VF in the same role.

The way it's worded makes it sound like the Alphas being requested to operate in space was a relatively new request... which, it must be admitted, it would be based on the RPG's date for the design entering production.

"relatively new" can still push it back several years and been the impetus for the upkick in production numbers in 2031 that is attributed to it entering mass production.

That's not really designed for a VF's use tho... that's more of a jump kit for battloids.

I do agree the AJP-01 and OMS-2 are specifically packaged for non-VF mecha to use, but there is no reason the technology that goes into them can't be repackaged into a FAST PACK for the Logan or other mecha to use. The elements are there, they just have to put them together in the proper package.

An engine in a package of 4tons that can move a ~26ton payload should have no trouble being put into a similar 4 ton package for a 6.5ton payload, especially if that 6.5ton payload is dimensionally larger than the ~26ton item. The Logan's lower mass should mean an increase in velocity over the 26ton payload, though its larger dimensions and lighter mass are going to balance out differently in terms of altering the mobility (non-velocity).

I'm curious about this Gamma fighter, though. Where do they talk about that?

Its a concept for TSC that got leaked out/post some time ago (I forget when/where,copyright date on it puts it at 2001). Almost everything we know about it is derived from a single piece of lineart showing transformaton and depiction in specific modes. If you enter "Robotech Gamma Fighter" into an image search it should come up.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Always hated the Logan.

I'm curious about this Gamma fighter, though. Where do they talk about that?

This: http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j16/C ... murnbi.jpg ignore the file name, IDK where they picked that name from...

[Seto Kaiba]

Always hated the Logan.

I'm curious about this Gamma fighter, though. Where do they talk about that?

It was one of several pieces of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles concept art that were printed (very small) in the teaser the single, brief article Newtype USA consented to run about the OVA's development. The only details given are those written directly upon the art itself... namely, that it was tentatively VF-13 and was attached to the previously unmentioned Neptune Base.

A larger version of the same art was part of the Shadow Rising document leak in 2008, in which one of Tommy Yune's friends leaked the plot outline for the remaining 2-3 episodes of the Shadow Chronicles OVA along with several pieces of concept art including the unused transformable Ark Angel and a "Hover Cyclone" and blamed it on one of Tommy's coworkers.

I do agree the AJP-01 and OMS-2 are specifically packaged for non-VF mecha to use, but there is no reason the technology that goes into them can't be repackaged into a FAST PACK for the Logan or other mecha to use. The elements are there, they just have to put them together in the proper package.

I'd still be hesitant to use it as the basis for a guess on a hypothetical Logan FAST pack, esp. since the Logan's design isn't really at all suited to FAST packs.

[ShadowLogan]

I'd still be hesitant to use it as the basis for a guess on a hypothetical Logan FAST pack, esp. since the Logan's design isn't really at all suited to FAST packs.

While it would be nice to have some other actual RT FAST-PACKS to gauge hypothetical FAST PACKs against beyond the VF-1, we don't. What the AJP-01 and OMS-2 show though is that the ASC certainly has the technology to produce a FAST PACK package for the Logan that would allow it to equal or exceed the space capabilities of the AGAC.

As far as the Logan's design being suitable, what exactly makes it unsuitable? Compared to the AGAC, the Logan is a breeze to workout candidates for such a system's mounting.

The Dorsal Pods could be worked in, they require a connection to allow the engines to rotate when it transforms leaving the pods in the same relative position, which seems reasonable. They could also be mounted on either side of the cockpit either on the shoulder "guards" or intakes in line with the engines. Either OMS-2 pod can fit here given depictions where the segmented/distributed system is no longer than the VHT-1's legs, and is fairly narrow giving the Logan plenty to work with in this form*.

The Forearm pods could be dorsally located instead of ventral. You might even be able to do both (though Ventral runs into issue of ground clearance in F mode with the landing gear I think. The Ventral then could limit landing opportunities to G mode unless they are jettisoned.

The Leg pods can work to, if they are allowed to move along a track (or just rotate) depending on mode in the lower leg/ankle area. You aren't going to be able to mount both OMS-2 pods, but the VHT-1's lower leg pod has enough room to work here*.

*these statements are made using the RT.com Size Comparison chart. I saved the bulk of the images before the site went down and can compare them.

[Alrik Vas]

I can see the VF-4 look in fighter mode with the Gamma, yah...but it's only general shape and pretty much stops there.

And as far as alpha/valkyrie...I'd always decided that the alpha was just an attempt at making a super VF without needing bolt ons. It's fail as far as that goes, but it's easy to see the thought process.

[Seto Kaiba]

While it would be nice to have some other actual RT FAST-PACKS to gauge hypothetical FAST PACKs against beyond the VF-1, we don't. What the AJP-01 and OMS-2 show though is that the ASC certainly has the technology to produce a FAST PACK package for the Logan that would allow it to equal or exceed the space capabilities of the AGAC.

Equal its speed and maneuverability, perhaps... but the Logan's armament is so light that it feels like kind of a waste unless those FAST packs add substantial additional armament.

The Dorsal Pods could be worked in, they require a connection to allow the engines to rotate when it transforms leaving the pods in the same relative position, which seems reasonable. They could also be mounted on either side of the cockpit either on the shoulder "guards" or intakes in line with the engines. Either OMS-2 pod can fit here given depictions where the segmented/distributed system is no longer than the VHT-1's legs, and is fairly narrow giving the Logan plenty to work with in this form*.

Whether or not there's a flat stretch of hull to bolt something is less important than the practicalities of implementation... the Logan doesn't really have as robust a means of deceleration as the VF-1 or an Alpha-Beta combiner, for instance.

And as far as alpha/valkyrie...I'd always decided that the alpha was just an attempt at making a super VF without needing bolt ons. It's fail as far as that goes, but it's easy to see the thought process.

Can't say I see it myself... the Alpha always was a CAS bird, more like a helicopter gunship or light rocket attack plane than a high performance space fighter. The old Infopedia compared it to a destroid, and I think that's actually kind of apt... it's not a very good multirole fighter, it's more along the lines of a self-delivering destroid high-mobility destroid.