Expanding the RPG & the 3 Laws of Robotech

[Colonel Wolfe]

Except that the creator of the TSC saying that the original version takes precedence over his own creation.

I think there is a fine point of debate here that is really not worthy of discussion.

One side indicates that the current creative director of Robotech has assigned an order of primacy of sources that places the original 85 episodes.

The other side indicates the current creative director of Robotech has the authority to decide the order of primacy of sources.

There is no actual disagreement between those points and no need to continue to go around on them.

Thank you for saying this before I got around to saying it.

How about instead we look at, within the framework established by the creative director of Robotech, what is and isn't available for adaptation into the RPG and what space there is for new creations within the RPG?

I want to bounce around idea for new content, new creations, and new Stories. 99% of Robotech topics devolve into arguments over canon... I'd like this topic to be part of the 1%...

[Kagashi]

I just rewatched tSC and Symphony simultaneously. Scott does say "why is she going *back* into the hive?" in tSC Indicating that it is indeed a second conversation (at least Ariel is now present for the second half of the conversation where in Symphony she was still outside the hive moping about after Scott bascially dissed her telling her he is going to kill more Invid), after the first, but obviously before the Regiss leaves Earth (which both the show and tSC depict the Regiss leaving Earth). If it is indeed a second conversation, why reuse like 5 lines directly from the Symphony? Lines that Ariel were not even present for in Symphony and were directed at Sara (with Lunk, Lancer, and Annie present as well)? At best, it leaves an ambiguous, confusing feeling to the viewer as to what actually happened if you try to meld the two.

Either Lancer, Lunk, Sara, and Annie were present when the Regiss spoke those five lines to Sara (as per Symphony) or it was only Ariel speaking with the Regiss after speaking with Scott outside (As per The Shadow Chronicles), with added dialogue concerning the Children of the Shadow (as opposed to the earlier reference in Symphony to the "Shadow of the Robotech Masters" in Symphony). If canon is Symphony and overrides The Shadow Chronicles, the rest of tSC does not make any sense what-so-ever and there are too many contradictions between tSC and Symphony. Something has to make sense.

But now I have a different issue as well. Scott is piloting a Leigoss in tSC. His Alpha was destroyed by Corg and by then he should be only in a Beta, so now he happened to find a brand new blue Commanders Alpha when the rest of the UEEF forces are sporting Shadow Fighters? In the middle of the battle? Did he just jack some other Freedom Fighter's jet whom prolly prized that fighter more than his own life? I really dont think this is plausible.

Now at the end of Symphony of Lights, he does indeed have an Alpha/Beta as he blasts into space in search of the SDF-3, just as he did in tSC to arrive at Moon Base ALuCE, but I find it hard to believe he happened across another Commander Alpha in between the scene in Symphony where he helped Sara and Lancer with the Shadow Drones and when the Regiss left.

Clearly, the timeline of events were altered (retconned) and in order to even watch the movie, you have to assume the whole gang went in to the hive, spoke to the Regiss, then Scott, Rand, and Rook left...killed Corg (but Scotts Alpha remained undamaged), Ariel left to find Scott and then Ariel went back into the hive to go talk to the Regiss. Perhaps the Regiss spoke to Sara and got her and Lancer to hold off the Hive in time to leave Earth, then when Ariel came back, she spoke the same exact lines to Ariel, in exactly the same way (prolly thinking, "Dam, it worked on the other daughter...") but I find that unlikely. Because even if Scott went back to help Lancer and Sara, he would have had to be in ONLY a Beta, and he clearly was piloting an Alpha/Beta throughout tSC.

No, the events in Symphony have been retconned and should be considered canon over Symphony where they contradict. Otherwise...why even make the changes?

[dataweaver]

it is also worth pointing out that this is not a binary set. it doesn't have to be either or. the end result can be a blending of the two. the two cases of Marlene doing the spirit thing to summon scott are supposed to be the same thing.. we just don't see the rest of the team in shadow chronicles because they aren't a focus char for the scenes. and it's noteworthy that the shadow chronicles scenes would very easily fit into the "cut aways" during the show (where it switched to showing something else for a bit), allowing the extra dialog to exist side by side.

This is true, and in fact more likely IMHO. I personally attribute the absense in TSC of anyone from the NewGen team other than Scott and Ariel to budgetary concerns: they weren't written out because Yune didn't want them there; they were written out because he couldn't justify spending the extra money to include them. So yeah; they were there in TSC; they just weren't being shown to us.

(It's also worth noting that LLA went with the original episodes in that regard — though the fact that it was primarily a clip show of the original series makes that utterly unsurprising.)

The comics are a different matter, though; there were no “animation budget crunches” forcing them to make tradeoffs. If and when there are clashes between the original episodes and the Wildstorm comics, I'm much more inclined to flat-out give primacy to the comics: it's far more likely that the change in the comics is a deliberate one that's motivated by Yune's vision of what Robotech is.

Note, though, that the primary criterion I'm using here is “what is Yune's vision of Robotech likely to be”, not “is this coming from one of the original 85 episodes”.

likewise the bit with the regent does not actually clash with the "crusade" dialog.. the regent was also on a crusade to locate and harvest FOL.. he was just doing it in a different place. the idea that he started on that path as a result of something the regis decreed, only to create a split over how to go about it.. that's well within the grey area of the show dialog and canon.

It's worth noting that by the time that the Masters era ended, the Regent was dead. In fact, the conflict against the Regent and the conflict against the Regess are almost exclusively arranged in a serial fashion, not a parallel one. Unless the “Regess, the Supreme Leader of the Invid” comment dates back to the time before Edwards arranged for the Regent's death, there's no “canon clash” to resolve.

Continuity is best approached like historical research. tiers of canon are like primary vs secondary sources. a primary source ranks higher than a secondary source, but secondary sources often provide broader context or additional info. very rarely do the two outright contradict each other, though they often differ in detail. by examining it as a whole though you get a better picture, as the truth tends to end up somewhere in between.

Agreed. Note that, by definition, this meaning of “primary vs. secondary source” allows for the possibility that a secondary source might revise our understanding of a primary source, not just expand on it.

I do think we'd be better off referring to Yune's comics and movies as primary sources on par with the original episodes, with apparent discrepencies between them being resolved in much the same way that discrepencies among different episodes of the original 85 get resolved: with reason and discernment, not blindly applying a blanket “X takes precedence over Y” rule. Reserve that for the actual secondary sources, such as pre-Yune comics, novels, and animation: if they apply at all, they do so within the context established by the original 85 as modified and expanded on by Yune's comics and movies. This is what that Q&A answer was actually talking about, as I understand it.

And, bringing this back around to UEEF Marines, this is said RPG book apparently falls down (I say “apparently” because my copy is still on order, so I can't personally confirm any of the alleged discrepencies): it violates the context established by the original 85 as modified and expanded on by Yune's comics and movies. So I would propose that the Three Laws of Robotech should be more along the lines of:

1. Primary canon is defined by the original 85 episodes, as modified and expanded on by Tommy Yune's comics and movies.
2. Sources other than the original 85 episodes that predate Tommy Yune can still be used, provided that they don't conflict with the primary canon as defined in the First Law.
3. RPG material is not canon, but should strive for consistency with canon as defined by the first two laws.

If everyone considers these revisions to be acceptable, I too would like to move on to the “expanding the RPG” portion of the topic. I do think that a lot of the Marines materiel can be addressed by confining the book's focus to 2015ish–2030ish, and saying that the likes of the MAC III and the Tiger (which I consider to be a working name) are a subsequent generation of mecha that started to come into production circa 2030.

I also personally prefer the notion that the UEDF wasn't completely replaced by the ASC, and that Sentinels Art Book destroid designs live on as UEDF Destroids from 2015–2030. Meanwhile, the IMAI destroid designs are what the UEEF Marine Destroids ended up being replaced by some time between 2030 and 2045.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Salvaging the Marines:
While I disagree with the existence of the Marines in Robotech, at least with the idea of making them the main fighting force of the REF, We now have the REF Marines book by Irvine Jackson.
not the best robotech book by most subjective views... it has elements that can be used to expand the universe. The New Destroid Designs, the new IMIA File units can have a place in the sand box.
The Destorids: RSCF has brought up the Idea that these are a separate design series from the Original REf Destroids. These being the direct successors to the Zentradi era designs. Sharing a designascetic aesthetic as the Alpha These would be deployed during the early REF mission, see combat or Colony patrol in that era. The Classic REF designs would become a Later Generation that saw use by the late 2020's (per LLA).
This would Give the "Marines" a unique set of Mecha to call their own.

This leads to the problem over the New Battleopds and the old ones...
As I see the REF was using the old designs in simulators, I wonder if these could be re-purposed into enemy mecha and replaced by the ones designed by Premiere?

Out of curiosity, you have referenced issues with the new Marines book--can you elaborate a bit on why you dislike them, other than "too much like the novels"--what specifically about it being like the novels is bad? does it contradict things from "offical" cannon?

I don't have the book, but I have been considering getting it--what's your quickie reveiw?

[Colonel Wolfe]

Out of curiosity, you have referenced issues with the new Marines book--can you elaborate a bit on why you dislike them, other than "too much like the novels"--what specifically about it being like the novels is bad? does it contradict things from "offical" cannon?

I don't have the book, but I have been considering getting it--what's your quickie reveiw?

What I don't like was what I feel was unneeded changes to the Destroid Designs... thats my largest gripe.
Prelude and TSC have been around for almost a decade, and established dates for the events that happened in the Show and for the Sentinels...
The Marines book going back to condensed timeline has the REf killing the Invid and the Zents knowing who they are in 2023...
Edwards is dead by 2030, and this then means the REF let the earth rot under invid control for the better part of 2 decades...
The Novels has the REf coming back to fight the invid in the early 2030's... even with the contradictions that it creates with the 85-series, it worked for what Luceno and Dalay were going for...
Tommy Edited the Sentinels Story from the old comics and novels to happen later in the time line... Edwards gets killed by Hunter in 2042-43... Prelude says the Haydonites and the Sentiels actually freed their own worlds and went as ambassadors to the REF....
for the Quality of the book also become an issue, since it contradicts itself in many places when they cut-n-pasted things from the TSC hard cover...

but, I do feel the book is worth the price of admission, esp. if you liked the novels.

[glitterboy2098]

of course the canon comics establish Edwards was alive and well in 2040, and doesn't die until 2043ish. Prelude to shadow chronicles is quite specific on dates and elapsed times.

marines is a good source of hardware, but most of the continuity stuff in it is garbage.

[Colonel Wolfe]

"Evolving" the Gura-Invid:
I Liked the addition of the Gura-Invid... as a interesting look to the invid, and maybe even a subspecies that could find a place in invid Society.
For my Robotech 2050 setting, I have the Invid Collective adopting the Gura and breeding them as shock-troopers/guard dogs to supplement their forces... Pretty much anytime Corg isn't inside his Overlord, he has a pair of Gura Invid to guard him... The human Invid mostly see them as kindred companions also left on the Earth when the Regesis fled That connection makes the Gura fiercly loyal to the Evolved invid they bond with.

[dataweaver]

of course the canon comics establish Edwards was alive and well in 2040, and doesn't die until 2043ish. Prelude to shadow chronicles is quite specific on dates and elapsed times.

marines is a good source of hardware, but most of the continuity stuff in it is garbage.

True enough. What's needed is to fit the hardware into a more appropriate continuity.

I do like the notion that the UExF mecha evolved considerably over the course of several decades, and that the Marines designs represent mecha from the earlier stages of that development (with full-on IMAI destroids eventually replacing the “halfway house” destroids that Marines apparently features) — in that regard, the book's use of a condensed timeline is a blessing in disguise, as it already assumes that its mecha designs were primarily featured in the pre-2030 timeframe.

Likewise, the Destroid designs from the original Sentinels RPG can be salvaged by saying that the UEDF continued to maintain a presence on Earth, distinct from the ASC, even after the Pioneer Expedition departed. That is, they're not “REF Destroids”; they're second-generation RDF Destroids, in use during the same timeframe as Rick Hunter's second-generation Veritech (“From the Stars”). They'd still be mostly gone by the time you get to 2030, though there could still be a few holdouts, explaining the one featured in LLA during Dana's departure.

The appearance of Betas (docked to Alphas, no less) in LLA is more problematic, as this explicitly contradicts the core RPG book's dates concerning the Beta. That said, it could be a case of the Betas as a fully separate unit from the Alphas being a much more recent development, with the 2030s having models that aren't yet capable of independent operation (largely because the docking mechanisms have proven to be problematic).

[glitterboy2098]

actually i'd prefer it the other way.. the old art representing the early appearance of the destroids (except the Monster.. which would need new art for an early version since the differences are huge), and the Marines art is the late 2030's versions that had been redesigned to simplify production some (thus explaining all the Alpha and Condor type parts), with the redesign being done to allow for faster production and thus faster replenishment of units reduced in combat.

though i'd prefer the zentreadi destroids new art be the permanent form, they just look better. (i dislike how they invalidate the fluff to the bioroid interceptor though.. they really should have been a post-tyrol development (done alongside the bioroid interceptor) either that or be much much bigger and designed for full size zents.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The appearance of Betas (docked to Alphas, no less) in LLA is more problematic, as this explicitly contradicts the core RPG book's dates concerning the Beta. That said, it could be a case of the Betas as a fully separate unit from the Alphas being a much more recent development, with the 2030s having models that aren't yet capable of independent operation (largely because the docking mechanisms have proven to be problematic).

I would have them represent VF-7's rather than the full-production -9 Beta... I always felt the Beta in TSC represented a non-transformable version since Skull Squadron never used the units as a force multiplier, but mainly as a Booster...

[dataweaver]

Technically, so did Scott in the original series — at least, he did during his initial attack; I saw no indication of a pilot in the Beta to which his Alpha was docked during the descent.

That said, shouldn't TSC represent the cutting-edge stuff? VF-9s, not VF-7s?

[dataweaver]

actually i'd prefer it the other way.. the old art representing the early appearance of the destroids (except the Monster.. which would need new art for an early version since the differences are huge), and the Marines art is the late 2030's versions that had been redesigned to simplify production some (thus explaining all the Alpha and Condor type parts), with the redesign being done to allow for faster production and thus faster replenishment of units reduced in combat.

For the record, could someone indicate which Marines Destroid maps to which IMAI Destroid?

[glitterboy2098]

they don't. the Marines destroids map to the old RPG's sentinels tomahawk, Raider-X, etc.

[dataweaver]

Huh. I had heard that they were loosely but identifiably based on the IMAI designs.

[glitterboy2098]

Huh. I had heard that they were loosely but identifiably based on the IMAI designs.

most of the mecha in the book are. but they also put in "2nd ed" versions of the sentinels destroids.

[dataweaver]

As I understand it, an early concept for what evolved into Southern Cross had been a world patterned loosely after feudal Japan, with the plot likely revolving around political intrigue rather than an invasion of foreigners. We know, according to the current continuity, that some ASC forces evacuated Earth during the Regess' invasion; Dana and the 15th ATAC are prominently featured in said evacuation. How about saying that remnants of the UEG's political class managed to evacuate as well, along with personnel (but not mecha) from various branches of the ASC — but instead of joining up with the UEEF, they headed to one of the local colony worlds with the intent to establish themselves there? Make it a back-to-nature agricultural world that features robot horses, and say that the UEG poticians ended up taking control but then split into factions…

Basically, an ASC-flavored failed colony with robot horses replacing mecha.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Technically, so did Scott in the original series — at least, he did during his initial attack; I saw no indication of a pilot in the Beta to which his Alpha was docked during the descent.

TBH, I haven't seen TSC in a long time, so I can't remember exactly what the "Beta" they used did... I remember reading an interview where Tommy basically said the Beta in TSC wasn't fully animated in an effort to save money. Even Scott transform's his Beta partially in an effort to slow down his original decent... I don't think the Beta's in TSC even do that, replying on the smaller Alpha engines in the leg to maneuver the entire unit.

That said, shouldn't TSC represent the cutting-edge stuff? VF-9s, not VF-7s?

The Items SS pulls out from SSL should be the bleeding edge of Robotechnology... the Super-upgrades to the Beta. anything else could be a toss up...
even as a cost saving messure the REf could manufacture cheaper non-transformable VB-7s

[Colonel Wolfe]

Huh. I had heard that they were loosely but identifiably based on the IMAI designs.

This may help: http://chuckwalton.deviantart.com/gallery/

[Lt Gargoyle]

while i have issues with the Marines book. I have decided that the Destroids are mecha some deck gang memebers piece together while killing time with some of the spare parts from totaled mecha. Hence the reason so many parts are alpha.

I can work with the Marines OCCs and MOSs. I liked the Sentinels Races including the Invid Scientist.

I will use the time line i want as i have added things for my own games. but i think you will never have a large group here agree on anything.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Since the REF Marines are Cannon Fodder with a sprinkling of untrustworthy Zentraedi (as per the text), why would the REF High Command waste the resources on fully realized mecha? They threw together some totaled mecha and said "Here ya go!". Nothing whatsoever is going to convince me that those kludged together designs actually rolled off an automated assembly line somewhere.

[Kagashi]

The Novels has the REf coming back to fight the invid in the early 2030's... even with the contradictions that it creates with the 85-series, it worked for what Luceno and Dalay were going for...

Its of note that both the remastered box set and the Amazon Instant Video versions all reflect the Yuneiverse dates.

But yes, the timeline in Marines was written as if none of the Wildstorm Comics, LLA, or even tSC was even created. It follows more the novels which Yune has decanonized. Marines is not worth the paper it is printed on. If there is one book I will never recommend to any player, its Marines.

[dataweaver]

Eh. It's true that Marines fell flat on its face when it comes to the timeline, and large portions of pages 11–13 are in desparate need of an overhaul (mainly in order to spread the "Sentinel Campaign” events out over the better part of two decades instead of four years). But the rest of the book is pretty good as written, needing only minor corrections. It's not entirely what I had been hoping for, mind you (I wanted the Mospeada concept art Destroids); but it's not bad.

In keeping with Colonel Wolfe's wishes: I'd be inclined to raid Aliens Unlimited to flesh out the species diversity of the Sentinel races. I don't buy that there were only four species and four worlds involved in that protracted 18-year struggle (five, if you count Tirol); I'd want at least twice as many races, and an order of magnitude more worlds to liberate. This would be in addition to raiding Galaxy Guide for the purpose of setting up Pioneer Mission colony worlds; just bear in mind that even in 2045, the oldest human colony is less than 30 years old.

[Kagashi]

Eh. It's true that Marines fell flat on its face when it comes to the timeline, and large portions of pages 11–13 are in desparate need of an overhaul (mainly in order to spread the "Sentinel Campaign” events out over the better part of two decades instead of four years). But the rest of the book is pretty good as written, needing only minor corrections. It's not entirely what I had been hoping for, mind you (I wanted the Mospeada concept art Destroids); but it's not bad.

In keeping with Colonel Wolfe's wishes: I'd be inclined to raid Aliens Unlimited to flesh out the species diversity of the Sentinel races. I don't buy that there were only four species and four worlds involved in that protracted 18-year struggle (five, if you count Tirol); I'd want at least twice as many races, and an order of magnitude more worlds to liberate. This would be in addition to raiding Galaxy Guide for the purpose of setting up Pioneer Mission colony worlds; just bear in mind that even in 2045, the oldest human colony is less than 30 years old.

AU makes for good Genesis Pit races too.

[Kagashi]

Hmm, Raithenors hunting Pertyon Energy Wizards...

[dataweaver]

Once you make the Sentinel races significant players in a Robotech story, it very quickly shifts to a sort of “space fantasy”. Consider the “this is going to take some getting used to” comments made by both Scott Bernard and Vince Grant after Ariel has teleported them around a few times, then note that both the Garudans and the Perytonians have similar teleportation abilities. Then there are the “primitive” aesthetics of the Praxians and the pseudo-steampunk aesthetics of the Karbarrans, the crystal-melding of the Spherians, and the other borderline-supernatural powers of the Garudans and Perytonians. In such a campaign, Genesis Pits and full-sized Zentreadi seem almost tame by comparison.

[glitterboy2098]

in regards to spreading the conflict out.. a few points..

there are also going to be some Tyrolian worlds to be liberated. (we have an example of 2 in the genesis pits book)
the campaigns to liberate each of the sentinels worlds may not be over all that fast. each world may well take years to fully liberate. (planets are big places)
and odds are that the UEEF leapfrogged to new worlds the moment the world's main defenders were fractured, rather than stick around to fully eliminate and rebuild. creating a lot of world with basically Invid remanant insurgencies causing issues for the residual forces, and worlds with a lot of political/social upheavals within the liberated populace..

kinda mixing the pacific campaign of WW2 with the reconstructions of iraq and Afghanistan..

[Kagashi]

In such a campaign, Genesis Pits and full-sized Zentreadi seem almost tame by comparison.

Mmmm, Zentraedi sized Raithenors....