This is rifts Sparta

[Blue_Lion]

What do you think happened to Sparta. Once one of the biggest baddest motor shooters of ancient time. What happened to the city of heroes in the common of Rifts. What do you think?

Would 300 humans of ancient heric line hold the line against the demon invaders of Europe?
Is it an abandon ruin filled with ghost of Spartans of past?
Is it a Titan strong hold?
Is it just another pile of stones?

[Brayon]

With most of Greece under water, I think Sparta might of been destroyed. Either that, or those Wolfen who took over Rome, setup an outpost. Or one of the other 2 Canine races.

[Blue_Lion]

With most of Greece under water, I think Sparta might of been destroyed. Either that, or those Wolfen who took over Rome, setup an outpost. Or one of the other 2 Canine races.

Is most of Greece under water sure it has coastal cites but I was always under the impression it was hilly.
The lowest elevation of Sparta is 200m or about 800'.

[Brayon]

If Sparta is at 800' above current sea level, then it should still be above the water in 109 P.A.. In that case, Rubble, or taken over by Wolfen, or Gargoyles makes sense.

[Blue_Lion]

Athens is a bit lower at 70m or about 229.6'. Greece is 83% mountains so most of it will be above water.

[Killer Cyborg]

Stones.

[Fell]

I don't know, but I bet you, the big pit they kicked people into is full of water now.

Somehow that just ruins the whole, "this is Rifts Sparta"!

(Man kicks another into the pit of water)

"Hey. I can swim you know" says the other man as he treds water with a smirk.

[say652]

For a Spartan warrior i would checkout the Berzerker occ from Rifts Pantheons, they can't use tactics though so modification is required.

[Alrik Vas]

Holding the line could be fun. Though you'd have to pick a different location. The Hot Gates are...a little wider than before, thanks to the passage of time.

[say652]

Post the finished Spartan for all of us to enjoy.

And i think between Alrics badass and PowerSurges tough this could be a great team up.

[Rallan]

If there's one thing I cannot stand it's carbon copies of historical cultures being transplanted into fantasy and science fiction settings, so I'll be quite happy if absolutely nothing in the whole region of Laconia bears any resemblance to ancient Sparta at all.

[say652]

I say they survived, used ancient body hardening techniques and Deific influence to become equal in Legend to the Spartans of old vs human opponents.

Now the match of the most powerful mdc creatures, using only traditional weapons and Armor, some use magical some use Tech versions but! A sword is a Sword, a Spear is a Spear and a Shield a Shield.

The Hoplite Armor is Required and again has same mix of Tech and Magical Equipment.
Figured the Demon Quellar Occ would drop nicely.
Change Hand to Hand to Hand to Hand Commando,

Give them Bionic and Robot Horses, but their version Has Laser Resistant Wings and uses a ContraGravity Flight System.

Depending on gm as few as 300 would be considered a Full Blown Army at high level.

[taalismn]

Holding the line could be fun. Though you'd have to pick a different location. The Hot Gates are...a little wider than before, thanks to the passage of time.

And artillery would do the rest....So unless those 300 are wearing power armor or piloting heavy combat robots(Robotech 'Spartan' Destroids anybody? ).

Not to mention any new wave Persians coming trekking to refight old wars would find themselves having to fight through more modernized Kurds and Armenians looking to hold onto their own homelands

[Blue_Lion]

I don't know, but I bet you, the big pit they kicked people into is full of water now.

Somehow that just ruins the whole, "this is Rifts Sparta"!

(Man kicks another into the pit of water)

"Hey. I can swim you know" says the other man as he treds water with a smirk.

Sparta is no lower than 800' above sea level now so even if the sea rose 400 feet hole would not likely be any fuller than it was then.

[Blue_Lion]

If there's one thing I cannot stand it's carbon copies of historical cultures being transplanted into fantasy and science fiction settings, so I'll be quite happy if absolutely nothing in the whole region of Laconia bears any resemblance to ancient Sparta at all.

Well they would be more inspired by or descended from.

[Brayon]

https://prezi.com/hz5oawi5phle/geography-of-sparta/ - Interesting Overview of Sparta, but a couple of Key things from it.

The Geographical Setting of Sparta Sparta was located in the southern part of the Peloponnesian peninsula, in the Eurotas River valley, in the area known as Laconia. The area is one of the most fertile in Greece. Geography & Topography The Mountains...
Sparta was surrounded on 3 sides by rugged mountains: Mt Taygetus to the west, the Parnon ranges to the east, and (the Arcadian mountains to the north. Sparta developed at the Northern end of the Eurotas valley, about 200 metres above sea level, and was connected to the sea at Gytheon, 42 kms to the south.

Gytheion was the main Spartan harbour.

At 200 meters above sea level, that's 656 ft. After Atlantis returned, the seas rose 400 ft above sea level (not to mention the massive Tsunamis during the cataclysm), most of this area was washed out. So, only the top 200 ft or so of the river valley would be above water, with the surrounding three mountain ranges. All villages, & ancient ruins would be gone, except for those higher in the mountains.

Now, the area itself had some resources, but mainly along the River, which would be now part of the Mediterranean Sea.

Approx. 750 BC Sparta needed more land & so invaded Messene. Messenians were reduced to the status of helots. After this, the joint territory of Laconia & Messenia was called Lacedaemon. The Growth of Sparta Laconia and Messene had many natural resources, including:

Iron and lead
Crops e.g. barley & wheat
Fruit orchards e.g. figs, olives and grapes
Plains good for grazing sheep & goats (cheese, skins, hair, wool & fat)
Pigs & hens
Game animals
Bees (honey & wax)
Timber & stone from the mountains ( building supplies)
Fish and shellfish from Gytheion
Dye extracted from shellfish used in textiles.

Resources Four of Sparta's villages were located on the Eurotas River. Fifth village named Amyclae was located 5 km South (towards the sea) Provided Sparta's water supply. [It w]ould flood in spring with influx of water & mud from melting snow caps insured that the plains remained fertile & able to supply Spartans with food.

I can see Iron, Lead, Bees, Timber, Stone, Fish & Shellfish, & Game Animals still being around for new settlers to use. Agriculture would be hard in the mountains.

Doable, for a small community, especially if they went underground in old mines, or had some other protective structures.

[Brayon]

If there's one thing I cannot stand it's carbon copies of historical cultures being transplanted into fantasy and science fiction settings, so I'll be quite happy if absolutely nothing in the whole region of Laconia bears any resemblance to ancient Sparta at all.

Well they would be more inspired by or descended from.

Don't forget about the Wolfen version of the Roman Empire based out of Rome, Italy. Mentioned in a couple of world books, & detailed in a RIFTER article. Not necessarily a Carbon Copy, but close.

[taalismn]

There's also the matter of time travel, or travel from alternate universes that have moved slower in their progression of history relative to Rifts Earth....actual Romans wandering over from a world line that objectively seems to be stuck in amber.
But yeah, as much as modern day people in a region take pride in their past, I don't see, even today, a great deal of trying to ape the 'Good Old Days'....The modern Greek military uses diesel-powered vessels, not triremes, and Greek soldiers use assault rifles and wear camouflage, not don bronze armor and carry spears. People in desperate situations(like the Coming of the Rifts) will use what WORKS, so if laser rifles and enchanted bronze armor happen to work, they'll use them, but I doubt they'll try for some overreaching theme in their culture; they'll create new ones.

[dragonfett]

If there's one thing I cannot stand it's carbon copies of historical cultures being transplanted into fantasy and science fiction settings, so I'll be quite happy if absolutely nothing in the whole region of Laconia bears any resemblance to ancient Sparta at all.

Well they would be more inspired by or descended from.

Don't forget about the Wolfen version of the Roman Empire based out of Rome, Italy. Mentioned in a couple of world books, & detailed in a RIFTER article. Not necessarily a Carbon Copy, but close.

That Rifter article is VERY unofficial from what I have heard.

[taalismn]

[
That Rifter article is VERY unofficial from what I have heard.

Yes. I admit, though, I'm rather fond of it because I first started posting to these forums aircraft and power armors for the NRR, giving me my start as a persistent pest on the threads.

[Alrik Vas]

Thanks for sticking around and annoying us, Taal

[Hotrod]

If there's one thing I cannot stand it's carbon copies of historical cultures being transplanted into fantasy and science fiction settings, so I'll be quite happy if absolutely nothing in the whole region of Laconia bears any resemblance to ancient Sparta at all.

Amen, brother. The idea of Sparta as a culture surviving into the apocalypse is ludicrous on many levels.

First, Sparta's classic culture, illusion of invincibility, and system of government were effectively crushed by the Thebans under Epaminondas before the time of Alexander the Great. Two centuries of further decline later, Sparta itself fell to Rome. After that, Sparta was little more than a tourist attraction of a people embellishing the traditions of their ancestors, until even tourist denarii couldn't keep the charade going, and they moved away. The last vestiges of Leonidas' culture of elite warriors didn't survive Roman times, let alone the 2,000 years since.

Another thing most laconophiles forget or gloss over: Sparta was the slave society of ancient Greece. Their hoplites spent all their time training for war because they had brutally and institutionally oppressed the Helots, who did all their productive work for them. Spartans regularly (and sometimes ritually) humiliated, beat, and murdered Helots. Spartan men would knock up Helot women, keep any bastard sons, and abandon any bastard daughters to die. They massacred influential "uppity" Helots on an annual basis.

The city of Sparta itself was pathetic next to its contemporaries; it was more of a collection of ancient-style villages than anything approaching what we would consider a city. Athens left us the Parthenon, plays, and many rich cultural traditions. Sparta left us some legends and histories of battles, which were written mostly by Greeks from other cities.

Understand, I'm not saying that I hate the ideals of Sparta; there was certainly a lot to admire in their culture. However, The 300 was a stylized piece of fiction that failed to accurately portray the tactics, the general attitudes, and the culture of the Spartans. If you're looking for a culture inspired by ancient Sparta in more modern times, you can look to Nazi Germany (Hitler and his racial theorists were big fans). You could probably come up with a Rifts-inspired equivalent, but most people would regard them as villains, even more so than the Coalition, which is far more inclusive.

If you're looking to make a Rifts equivalent of a hoplite warrior, you should look at some videos of phalanx formations from the original Rome: Total War, or try playing the game (which is still awesome). They're very strong to the front, but they're slow, unwieldy, and vulnerable to attack from the sides and rear. Creating an effective and analogous melee formation of troops in Rifts would require you to negate an enemy's ability to shoot you. A formation of psychic soldiers, all equipped with invincible, interlocking psi-shields might do the job.

[Brayon]

First, Sparta's classic culture, illusion of invincibility, and system of government was effectively crushed by the Thebans under Epaminondas before the time of Alexander the Great. Two centuries of further decline later, Sparta itself fell to Rome. After that, Sparta was little more than a tourist attraction of a people embellishing the traditions of their ancestors, until even tourist denarii couldn't keep the charade going, and they moved away. The last vestiges of Leonidas' culture of elite warriors didn't survive Roman times, let alone the 2,000 years since.

-SNIP-

Understand, I'm not saying that I hate the ideals of Sparta; there was certainly a lot to admire in their culture. However, The 300 was a stylized piece of fiction that failed to accurately portray the tactics, the general attitudes, and the culture of the Spartans. If you're looking for a culture inspired by ancient Sparta in more modern times, you can look to Nazi Germany (Hitler and his racial theorists were big fans). You could probably come up with a Rifts-inspired equivalent, but most people would regard them as villains, even more so than the Coalition, which is far more inclusive.

-SNIP-

Funny you mentioned Thebes, & the 300 Movie (& its sequel). A couple of historical notes this thread reminded me of. It was the Sacred Band of Thebes, a fighting unit of 300 all Homosexual men, who beat the Spartans. This group was eventually slaughtered because they all 300 fought off the Armies of Philip II of Macedon (father of Alexander the Great) at the battle of Chaeronea, defending the rest of the Greek Army. Makes one wonder if the movie 300 was about them, & not Sparta. Can be easily found on Wiki, if you want to read more.

[Alrik Vas]

An interesting read. They used superior tactics against a foe who wouldn't change strategy and was using forcibly conscripted soldiers that didn't want to fight in the first place. History is full of this.

Thebes always was a bit of a twit, though.

[Slight001]

A formation of psychic soldiers, all equipped with invincible, interlocking psi-shields might do the job.

Invincible Armor? or Invulnerability? Probably the prior...

Psi-Shields are useless against ranged attacks... iirc Psi-Warriors (and/or Cyber-Knights) have a modified Psi-Shield that can be used against ranged attacks...

[taalismn]

Another twist might be to have a race of Earth Elemental types or mineraloid aliens model themselves after classic Greek warriors with regards to general appearance and weaponry, or at least APPEAR to be....Seeing giant humanoid warriors made of stone emerge from the earth and rock outcroppings to bash people with (MDC) stone weapons and thrown rocks/spears has people wondering who's using ancient sculpture as stone golems. The aliens/elementaloids really don't think they're ancient Greeks; being Odesseus-cunning they just like messing with the trappings.

[Blue_Lion]

A formation of psychic soldiers, all equipped with invincible, interlocking psi-shields might do the job.

Invincible Armor? or Invulnerability? Probably the prior...

Psi-Shields are useless against ranged attacks... iirc Psi-Warriors (and/or Cyber-Knights) have a modified Psi-Shield that can be used against ranged attacks...

Deflect or target deflect on the shields would stop most range attacks. Without the need for invincible shields.

Sure the Spartans did not leave anything other than legends of incredible warriors because as was pointed out the only thing the Spartans ever produced themselves was soldiers. The messenger that brought back the news of the 300 defeat at the gate spend the rest of his life in disgrace. Even today the Spartans of old for most bring to mind soldiers that never quit and stand up to impossible odds.

I do not think 300 was based acutely on any historical group. At best it was inspired by the legend of 300 Spartans holding the gate.

[Hotrod]

A formation of psychic soldiers, all equipped with invincible, interlocking psi-shields might do the job.

Invincible Armor? or Invulnerability? Probably the prior...

Psi-Shields are useless against ranged attacks... iirc Psi-Warriors (and/or Cyber-Knights) have a modified Psi-Shield that can be used against ranged attacks...

Deflect or target deflect on the shields would stop most range attacks. Without the need for invincible shields.

Sure the Spartans did not leave anything other than legends of incredible warriors because as was pointed out the only thing the Spartans ever produced themselves was soldiers. The messenger that brought back the news of the 300 defeat at the gate spend the rest of his life in disgrace. Even today the Spartans of old for most bring to mind soldiers that never quit and stand up to impossible odds.

I do not think 300 was based acutely on any historical group. At best it was inspired by the legend of 300 Spartans holding the gate.

The 300 was a movie inspired by the comic book of the same name, which was inspired by an older movie, which was inspired by Greek propaganda, which was loosely based on actual events. Most of the Greeks at the actual Battle of Thermopylae weren't Spartans. Even after the majority of them evacuated on the third day, the majority of the remaining hoplite forces were Thespians (who committed every hoplite their city could muster), and there were likely about a thousand Helots. The idea that 300 Spartans stood alone against Xerxes' army is a myth.

I'm not taking anything away from the bravery of the 300 Spartans. They and their king willingly sacrificed themselves as part of a rearguard action that allowed most of the Greek forces to escape. That's some serious heroism. That rearguard action helped to inspire a fractious Greece to come together and crush the invading Persians in the Battle of Plantaea a year later. That's a terrific accomplishment that needs no embellishment or exaggeration. It's a deed worthy of remembrance as an example of courage and self-sacrifice. All the Greeks who fought the final action embodied those virtues, not just the Spartans.

Remember the Thespian 700! They should make a movie about those guys.

(side note: the Spartan who returned from Thermopylae, was indeed shamed as a coward for the rest of his life, but he was considered to have redeemed himself at the Battle of Plantaea, where he single-handedly charged the Persians, bezerker-style, and fought until he was cut down. He got no special recognition, however, because his undisciplined attack wasn't the Spartan way.)

[ShadowLogan]

Another twist might be to have a race of Earth Elemental types or mineraloid aliens model themselves after classic Greek warriors with regards to general appearance and weaponry, or at least APPEAR to be....Seeing giant humanoid warriors made of stone emerge from the earth and rock outcroppings to bash people with (MDC) stone weapons and thrown rocks/spears has people wondering who's using ancient sculpture as stone golems. The aliens/elementaloids really don't think they're ancient Greeks; being Odesseus-cunning they just like messing with the trappings.

Isn't the stone/mineral race mimicking classical ancient Earth cultural this already being done with New Babalyon in SA with the Amaki?

[taalismn]

Another twist might be to have a race of Earth Elemental types or mineraloid aliens model themselves after classic Greek warriors with regards to general appearance and weaponry, or at least APPEAR to be....Seeing giant humanoid warriors made of stone emerge from the earth and rock outcroppings to bash people with (MDC) stone weapons and thrown rocks/spears has people wondering who's using ancient sculpture as stone golems. The aliens/elementaloids really don't think they're ancient Greeks; being Odesseus-cunning they just like messing with the trappings.

Isn't the stone/mineral race mimicking classical ancient Earth cultural this already being done with New Babalyon in SA with the Amaki?

If you want to see them that way...I'm thinking much cruder approximations of the human form...Like imagine the Easter Island statues wearing stone helmets(Greek pattern).

[glitterboy2098]

what, no tech Spartans with rocket spears vs robotic minotaur tanks?

[ShadowLogan]

Another twist might be to have a race of Earth Elemental types or mineraloid aliens model themselves after classic Greek warriors with regards to general appearance and weaponry, or at least APPEAR to be....Seeing giant humanoid warriors made of stone emerge from the earth and rock outcroppings to bash people with (MDC) stone weapons and thrown rocks/spears has people wondering who's using ancient sculpture as stone golems. The aliens/elementaloids really don't think they're ancient Greeks; being Odesseus-cunning they just like messing with the trappings.

Isn't the stone/mineral race mimicking classical ancient Earth cultural this already being done with New Babalyon in SA with the Amaki?

If you want to see them that way...I'm thinking much cruder approximations of the human form...Like imagine the Easter Island statues wearing stone helmets(Greek pattern).

So Obsedi (sp?) from DBoNA instead of Amaki?

[say652]

The Anakin seems overkill, especially combined with Demon Quellar, capable of over 3000mdc at Level 1.

Then again 300 Amaki Demon Quellars is definitely worthy to take up the Spartan legends of old.