Rifts earth: Space

[eliakon]

The actual lunar gravity is also one-sixth that of Earth making what might be impractical in Earth gravity and Earth's atmosphere practical, and since traction drives don't require propellant they're quite practical for the situation, because you don't have to generate much thrust to counter lunar gravity and energy is plentiful from solar and nuclear.

Lunar gravity maybe 1/6 earth, but "flight" would still be impractical. While the object weighs less, its mass remains the same.

Traction drives are listed as requiring hydrogen and helium isotopes for fuel ("Fuel: Deuterium/Helium-3/electricity"). There is also the fact they are also have size limitations. Not to mention availablility "only fitted to a handful of very large transports and to the ships of the wealthy. They are too large to be used for small and medium size shuttles." (All quotes from pg81 in MiO Traction Drive)

Considering the size of the weapons your proposing here (1d6x1000 canons are HUGE can only be mounted on the largest of ships in Phase World, and need their own complement of reactors.....)
I do not understand why a space ship is impractical in space though.....perhaps you can explain why everyone else seems to be fine with using them....

So because the author called it a satellite you take that to mean it can't be a powered vehicle kept in place over the target zone by a drive system, and you much favor the implausibility of it being a geo-stationary satellite with a range simply not seen anywhere in Rifts save in Robotech and in the hands of races that make humanity look like they're in the stone tools stage in comparison over the plausible status of it simply being in close with a maneuvering drive to keep it overhead and regular supplies if needed for fuel.

That is correct, at least in concept. I do not favour geo-stationary orbit. That would imply the satellite being discussed is in Orbit closer to the Earth, it isn't. The Earth-Moon L1 point meets the criteria as the author describes it. The only other viable way to take it is that there is a constellation in low lunar orbit that always has the number of satellites listed over the designated zones.

While these weapons are unheard of in Rifts, that doesn't mean the Orbitals can not have them without effecting the overall balance. There is plenty of unknowns with regard to the PBC satellites in question, but what information we do have does support the notion the Orbitals have said weapons and with range. Now it may be the fault of the author/editor for failing to do their research and checking, but as it stands that is precisely what the text implies the CAN has deployed not a "flyer", which also means the Orbitals can have weapons with the necessary range to deny even LEO to the people of Earth.

What information do we have that supports a 36,000 mile plus range weapon system?
Besides your desire to have weapons in Lagrange?
All we know is that there is a satellite that is able to hit these locations. Period.
I understand you want these to be immobile satellites....
But seriously what support do you have for this weapon system being possible?
Other than saying that they salvaged a handful of Robotech particle beams off of a Zentradi ship, and are some how able to power them from their satellites (which ironically would still need regular maintenance and supply.......)
I may not be getting it but where do these god guns come from?

[ShadowLogan]

Considering the size of the weapons your proposing here (1d6x1000 canons are HUGE can only be mounted on the largest of ships in Phase World, and need their own complement of reactors.....)
I do not understand why a space ship is impractical in space though.....perhaps you can explain why everyone else seems to be fine with using them....

The damage for the weapon in question is x100 not x1000 and damage wise is the same as the Satellite Weapon on a per melee period (15sec) basis. So size-wise the weapon can already fit into a satellite in terms of damage. Physical size seems to have little relation to range or damage capacity in general for Palladium.

Satellites that "hover" over the same spot over the Earth (or any body) can only do so at a fixed distance if they are in space. Anything else requires that you constantly adjust velocity which becomes fuel intensive. Even though we have Ion Drives in RL no one trys to use them to perform station keeping like what you call for over the Earth for a lower altitude. The Orbitals/CAN would know this and would use one of the two scenarios I've said they are using.

What information do we have that supports a 36,000 mile plus range weapon system?

Physics dictates in order to meet the requirements for the satellite as described in the text it must be at that distance from the Lunar Surface. If you only want the listed number of satellites involved for the given locations. If you are comfortable with multiple satellites a smaller altitude is possible to come in closer, but that requires interpreting the "one/three" to mean members of the constellation are overhead at any given time.

[Alrik Vas]

Where do they come from?

Well it's a magical place that gave us weapons that fire light weight rounds traveling mach 5 that somehow don't do less than M1's auto cannon. And in fact can do 30 times the damage.

The Golden Age.

[eliakon]

Considering the size of the weapons your proposing here (1d6x1000 canons are HUGE can only be mounted on the largest of ships in Phase World, and need their own complement of reactors.....)
I do not understand why a space ship is impractical in space though.....perhaps you can explain why everyone else seems to be fine with using them....

The damage for the weapon in question is x100 not x1000 and damage wise is the same as the Satellite Weapon on a per melee period (15sec) basis. So size-wise the weapon can already fit into a satellite in terms of damage. Physical size seems to have little relation to range or damage capacity in general for Palladium.

The x100 weapons have to short a range.
As I recall your argument was that you were going to use an array of the capitol x1000 weapons, and then trade the damage for range to get the needed range.
My point here is that there is no way to FIT ten or one hundred of the x1000 weapons into a 'satellite' to even attempt to begin this (even assuming that you could trade damage for range, or that you can combine multiple units into one beam)

Satellites that "hover" over the same spot over the Earth (or any body) can only do so at a fixed distance if they are in space. Anything else requires that you constantly adjust velocity which becomes fuel intensive. Even though we have Ion Drives in RL no one trys to use them to perform station keeping like what you call for over the Earth for a lower altitude. The Orbitals/CAN would know this and would use one of the two scenarios I've said they are using.

That is why I didn't use a RL drive. I used the fictional ones in the book. Specifically the one that says that its only fuel is electricity.

What information do we have that supports a 36,000 mile plus range weapon system?

Physics dictates in order to meet the requirements for the satellite as described in the text it must be at that distance from the Lunar Surface. If you only want the listed number of satellites involved for the given locations. If you are comfortable with multiple satellites a smaller altitude is possible to come in closer, but that requires interpreting the "one/three" to mean members of the constellation are overhead at any given time.

So no, there is nothing supporting a weapon with a 36,000 mile range. Which is good because as far as I have found to make such a weapon requires either Elder Race Technology, or Robotechnology.
I have no problem with the satellites being closer (as in with in the established range of the existing weapons technology)
Numbers don't have to change at all. Three satellites is three satellites, whether they are 36 miles or 36 thousand miles up.
The only way that it is required is if you get to fiat that they are at that range.....which isn't support at all.

[Zer0 Kay]

Where do they come from?

Well it's a magical place that gave us weapons that fire light weight rounds traveling mach 5 that somehow don't do less than M1's auto cannon. And in fact can do 30 times the damage.

The Golden Age.

What model of the M1 auto loads? Though mach 7 is ridiculously slow for a railgun. Iirc the navy's is Mach 20 something and a much larger round.

[Zer0 Kay]

Considering the size of the weapons your proposing here (1d6x1000 canons are HUGE can only be mounted on the largest of ships in Phase World, and need their own complement of reactors.....)
I do not understand why a space ship is impractical in space though.....perhaps you can explain why everyone else seems to be fine with using them....

The damage for the weapon in question is x100 not x1000 and damage wise is the same as the Satellite Weapon on a per melee period (15sec) basis. So size-wise the weapon can already fit into a satellite in terms of damage. Physical size seems to have little relation to range or damage capacity in general for Palladium.

The x100 weapons have to short a range.
As I recall your argument was that you were going to use an array of the capitol x1000 weapons, and then trade the damage for range to get the needed range.
My point here is that there is no way to FIT ten or one hundred of the x1000 weapons into a 'satellite' to even attempt to begin this (even assuming that you could trade damage for range, or that you can combine multiple units into one beam)

Satellites that "hover" over the same spot over the Earth (or any body) can only do so at a fixed distance if they are in space. Anything else requires that you constantly adjust velocity which becomes fuel intensive. Even though we have Ion Drives in RL no one trys to use them to perform station keeping like what you call for over the Earth for a lower altitude. The Orbitals/CAN would know this and would use one of the two scenarios I've said they are using.

That is why I didn't use a RL drive. I used the fictional ones in the book. Specifically the one that says that its only fuel is electricity.

What information do we have that supports a 36,000 mile plus range weapon system?

Physics dictates in order to meet the requirements for the satellite as described in the text it must be at that distance from the Lunar Surface. If you only want the listed number of satellites involved for the given locations. If you are comfortable with multiple satellites a smaller altitude is possible to come in closer, but that requires interpreting the "one/three" to mean members of the constellation are overhead at any given time.

So no, there is nothing supporting a weapon with a 36,000 mile range. Which is good because as far as I have found to make such a weapon requires either Elder Race Technology, or Robotechnology.
I have no problem with the satellites being closer (as in with in the established range of the existing weapons technology)
Numbers don't have to change at all. Three satellites is three satellites, whether they are 36 miles or 36 thousand miles up.
The only way that it is required is if you get to fiat that they are at that range.....which isn't support at all.

IRL ion engines aren't used because their acceleration is to slow for gravity wells. That is why they only used for deep space probes where constant acceleration is more important than the amount of thrust. Duration over volume.

[Blue_Lion]

Where do they come from?

Well it's a magical place that gave us weapons that fire light weight rounds traveling mach 5 that somehow don't do less than M1's auto cannon. And in fact can do 30 times the damage.

The Golden Age.

What model of the M1 auto loads? Though mach 7 is ridiculously slow for a railgun. Iirc the navy's is Mach 20 something and a much larger round.

When they stated the speed of rail guns that information was not commonly available and unknown to the game desiners. The boom gun is only slightly faster than the main gun of a M1 Abrams.

[Alrik Vas]

Where do they come from?

Well it's a magical place that gave us weapons that fire light weight rounds traveling mach 5 that somehow don't do less than M1's auto cannon. And in fact can do 30 times the damage.

The Golden Age.

What model of the M1 auto loads? Though mach 7 is ridiculously slow for a railgun. Iirc the navy's is Mach 20 something and a much larger round.

You're right, it doesn't. Not enough coffee and I make mistakes like that...

And after some math, a boom gun round would have to weigh like 4kg and travel at near mach 20 to do what it does. And whoa, that real life range...

[ShadowLogan]

The x100 weapons have to short a range.
As I recall your argument was that you were going to use an array of the capitol x1000 weapons, and then trade the damage for range to get the needed range.
My point here is that there is no way to FIT ten or one hundred of the x1000 weapons into a 'satellite' to even attempt to begin this (even assuming that you could trade damage for range, or that you can combine multiple units into one beam)

The x100 weapon in MiO is implied to have 36,000mile range in one of only two ways the text can work. The PW setting was to show that technologically it could be done in the setting.

That is why I didn't use a RL drive. I used the fictional ones in the book. Specifically the one that says that its only fuel is electricity.

Even the fictional ones in the book can not escape the reality here. You do not gain anything by switching to the fictional drives in MiO.

The drive you champion doesn't work for a host of reasons you are choosing to ignore. It still uses fuel, it has a lower size limit, and is rare.

So no, there is nothing supporting a weapon with a 36,000 mile range.

The text implies the range on the Satellites in question are either 36,000miles or better than 60miles (lowest stable orbit around the moon).

IRL ion engines aren't used because their acceleration is to slow for gravity wells. That is why they only used for deep space probes where constant acceleration is more important than the amount of thrust. Duration over volume.

The acceleration/thrust is correct. Ion-type engines are also used for the occasional/rare satellite in Earth orbit where the time involved for the propulsion manuevers is not a concern.

[Nightmask]

The x100 weapons have to short a range.
As I recall your argument was that you were going to use an array of the capitol x1000 weapons, and then trade the damage for range to get the needed range.
My point here is that there is no way to FIT ten or one hundred of the x1000 weapons into a 'satellite' to even attempt to begin this (even assuming that you could trade damage for range, or that you can combine multiple units into one beam)

The x100 weapon in MiO is implied to have 36,000mile range in one of only two ways the text can work. The PW setting was to show that technologically it could be done in the setting.

No, you think it's implied because you choose to reject the other acceptable possibilities to support the only conclusion you want to be valid.

That is why I didn't use a RL drive. I used the fictional ones in the book. Specifically the one that says that its only fuel is electricity.

Even the fictional ones in the book can not escape the reality here. You do not gain anything by switching to the fictional drives in MiO.

The drive you champion doesn't work for a host of reasons you are choosing to ignore. It still uses fuel, it has a lower size limit, and is rare.

Except it DOES work for a host of reasons you choose to ignore. Using fuel does not make it invalid because contrary to what you want to consider possible it is in fact possible to refuel satellites (heck for large and important satellites we manage to do that today with our more primitive technology) and no reason why for something so important the Moon colony wouldn't put the effort into refueling it regularly, it's size limit doesn't prevent it being an option for a weapon satellite, and rare doesn't mean non-existent which means the Moon colony could certainly make use of one if they needed it like in this case.

So no, there is nothing supporting a weapon with a 36,000 mile range.

The text implies the range on the Satellites in question are either 36,000miles or better than 60miles (lowest stable orbit around the moon).

Except the text doesn't imply a 36k range on the satellite, all the text we have supports the fact that no one even comes close to having energy weapons with that range.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, they need to stop slacking.

[eliakon]

Also Phase world DOES have weapons with 60 mile range (lowest stable orbit remember). Heck they have 100 mile range weapons all over the place.

But Phase World does NOT have anything longer ranged than 100 miles unless your an Elder Race.
Period.
Dot.
End of story.
No one in Phase World, not the Kittani, not the Naruni, not the CCW, not the Khreghor, not the Golgoans, no one has longer range weapons except for the Dominators, and a unique Elder artifact (that breaks all the other rules too.....being a phase weapon that hurts matter.....)
The only example of a mortal race having a weapon that long ranged is Robotech, and we can pretty much rule out that technology being common because if it was that easy to develop (or worked out side its universe, or what other reason there is for why no one else has it) then EVERYONE would be using 100,000 mile range weapons with RT level damage, and not their lesser ones.
Especially since some of the main weapons development in Phase World is to get incremental increases out of the existing technology, there would be no reason to keep that tech if you could get longer ranged weapons with more damage.....

[Library Ogre]

Also Phase world DOES have weapons with 60 mile range (lowest stable orbit remember). Heck they have 100 mile range weapons all over the place.

But Phase World does NOT have anything longer ranged than 100 miles unless your an Elder Race.
Period.
Dot.
End of story.

Missiles.

[eliakon]

Also Phase world DOES have weapons with 60 mile range (lowest stable orbit remember). Heck they have 100 mile range weapons all over the place.

But Phase World does NOT have anything longer ranged than 100 miles unless your an Elder Race.
Period.
Dot.
End of story.

Missiles.

*sigh* Okay, does not have any ENERGY WEAPONS with a range longer than 100miles (that I am aware of)
I thought that since this was a discussion of energy weapons that it would be obvious, but I guess I wasn't clear enough on that, my bad.

[ShadowLogan]

No, you think it's implied because you choose to reject the other acceptable possibilities to support the only conclusion you want to be valid.

There are only two acceptable possibilities here. Either the Satellites in question orbit at L1 or they orbit in low lunar orbit at minimum. There is no other possibility that works with the established facts surrounding the satellites in question.

Except it DOES work for a host of reasons you choose to ignore. Using fuel does not make it invalid because contrary to what you want to consider possible it is in fact possible to refuel satellites (heck for large and important satellites we manage to do that today with our more primitive technology) and no reason why for something so important the Moon colony wouldn't put the effort into refuelling it regularly, it's size limit doesn't prevent it being an option for a weapon satellite, and rare doesn't mean non-existent which means the Moon colony could certainly make use of one if they needed it like in this case.

I do not dispute that you can refuel the satellite, what I dispute is the practicality of it for the mission outlined. You have to support 4 such satellites to boot (3 South Pole, 1 Archimedes), not just 1 in terms of refuelling. Since these satellites have to maintain position, their tankers will also have to execute the same wasteful manoeuvre. Each of these tankers will also need to be maintained, and use their own fuel. Really it is far easier to just give CAN/Orbitals weapons with the necessary range that try to workout some expensive/wasteful method of keeping the satellites on station.

Except the text doesn't imply a 36k range on the satellite, all the text we have supports the fact that no one even comes close to having energy weapons with that range.

Yes the text does imply a 36k range on the satellites in question. "A killer satellite is also stationed overhead" (pg65 MiO). Unless it is part of a constellation of Satellites it MUST be at 36,000miles. They are describing the lunar equivalent of geostationary orbit, which for the Moon coincides with the L1 and L2 Lagrange point distances.

[Nightmask]

No, you think it's implied because you choose to reject the other acceptable possibilities to support the only conclusion you want to be valid.

There are only two acceptable possibilities here. Either the Satellites in question orbit at L1 or they orbit in low lunar orbit at minimum. There is no other possibility that works with the established facts surrounding the satellites in question.

Or it's kept in place overhead with a drive of some sort.

Except it DOES work for a host of reasons you choose to ignore. Using fuel does not make it invalid because contrary to what you want to consider possible it is in fact possible to refuel satellites (heck for large and important satellites we manage to do that today with our more primitive technology) and no reason why for something so important the Moon colony wouldn't put the effort into refuelling it regularly, it's size limit doesn't prevent it being an option for a weapon satellite, and rare doesn't mean non-existent which means the Moon colony could certainly make use of one if they needed it like in this case.

I do not dispute that you can refuel the satellite, what I dispute is the practicality of it for the mission outlined. You have to support 4 such satellites to boot (3 South Pole, 1 Archimedes), not just 1 in terms of refuelling. Since these satellites have to maintain position, their tankers will also have to execute the same wasteful manoeuvre. Each of these tankers will also need to be maintained, and use their own fuel. Really it is far easier to just give CAN/Orbitals weapons with the necessary range that try to workout some expensive/wasteful method of keeping the satellites on station.

No, it's not easier. You want to hand over technology that would have status-quo breaking impact due to its massive benefits over what everyone else has rather than accept the more simple deal of using existing technology that is both plausible and workable. So no, it's easier just to have them with a low-orbit satellite maintained by refueling teams IF such were necessary (since you insist traction drives require physical fuel that's disputed by others who see that as simply being reactor fuel and not required by the actual drive, so not essential if you've other power sources available) than giving them an energy weapon with unprecedented range and damage that would make them the ruling power of the space community instead of in an uneasy stalemate.

Except the text doesn't imply a 36k range on the satellite, all the text we have supports the fact that no one even comes close to having energy weapons with that range.

Yes the text does imply a 36k range on the satellites in question. "A killer satellite is also stationed overhead" (pg65 MiO). Unless it is part of a constellation of Satellites it MUST be at 36,000miles. They are describing the lunar equivalent of geostationary orbit, which for the Moon coincides with the L1 and L2 Lagrange point distances.

No it doesn't HAVE to be at 36,000 miles, that's what YOU insist it must be. It does not have to be at that location in order to be overhead as the text states.

[ShadowLogan]

Or it's kept in place overhead with a drive of some sort.

Then it wouldn't be a Satellite if it has to use it's propulsion system to maintain a constant position. Nor is using any of the available drive system practical in doing what you want to accomplish.

Given these are ley line nexus points it might not be smart to have a Traction Drive in use near by, especially if you have a research facility studying the anomalies that warp the fabric of space-time, and you want to put a drive system that also warps the fabric of space-time which could disrupt research with the goal of "unravelling the secrets of these dimensional doorways." (pg65)

So no, it's easier just to have them with a low-orbit satellite maintained by refueling teams IF such were necessary (since you insist traction drives require physical fuel that's disputed by others who see that as simply being reactor fuel and not required by the actual drive, so not essential if you've other power sources available) than giving them an energy weapon with unprecedented range and damage that would make them the ruling power of the space community instead of in an uneasy stalemate.

Low Orbiting satellites are not an issue, not even refuelling them. The issue is when you try to make those low orbiting satellites behave in impractical ways (such as trying to maintain position).

Giving the Orbitals/CAN range breaking weapons is not setting breaking if it is done properly.

No it doesn't HAVE to be at 36,000 miles, that's what YOU insist it must be. It does not have to be at that location in order to be overhead as the text states.

The only way you can get the range to reduce is by having a constellation of satellites that provide the indicated coverage on the spot at any one time, but even here you are talking 50miles or more of altitude. Trying to make a satellite maintain an overhead position requires the object to be in a stationary orbit, which pushes it out to 36,000miles.

[eliakon]

Or it's kept in place overhead with a drive of some sort.

Then it wouldn't be a Satellite if it has to use it's propulsion system to maintain a constant position. Nor is using any of the available drive system practical in doing what you want to accomplish.

Given these are ley line nexus points it might not be smart to have a Traction Drive in use near by, especially if you have a research facility studying the anomalies that warp the fabric of space-time, and you want to put a drive system that also warps the fabric of space-time which could disrupt research with the goal of "unravelling the secrets of these dimensional doorways." (pg65)

So no, it's easier just to have them with a low-orbit satellite maintained by refueling teams IF such were necessary (since you insist traction drives require physical fuel that's disputed by others who see that as simply being reactor fuel and not required by the actual drive, so not essential if you've other power sources available) than giving them an energy weapon with unprecedented range and damage that would make them the ruling power of the space community instead of in an uneasy stalemate.

Low Orbiting satellites are not an issue, not even refuelling them. The issue is when you try to make those low orbiting satellites behave in impractical ways (such as trying to maintain position).

Giving the Orbitals/CAN range breaking weapons is not setting breaking if it is done properly.

No it doesn't HAVE to be at 36,000 miles, that's what YOU insist it must be. It does not have to be at that location in order to be overhead as the text states.

The only way you can get the range to reduce is by having a constellation of satellites that provide the indicated coverage on the spot at any one time, but even here you are talking 50miles or more of altitude. Trying to make a satellite maintain an overhead position requires the object to be in a stationary orbit, which pushes it out to 36,000miles.

So you feel that it is more plausible to give them 4+ Elder Race weapons with 36,000 mile ranges, than a number of stock phaseworld class 100mile particle beams? (Heck if you want a source......make them salvaged from the Ahrkhons. One of those Arkhon ships might have enough particle beams of this class to work, and if not copy that one model.....)

[Zer0 Kay]

Where do they come from?

Well it's a magical place that gave us weapons that fire light weight rounds traveling mach 5 that somehow don't do less than M1's auto cannon. And in fact can do 30 times the damage.

The Golden Age.

What model of the M1 auto loads? Though mach 7 is ridiculously slow for a railgun. Iirc the navy's is Mach 20 something and a much larger round.

When they stated the speed of rail guns that information was not commonly available and unknown to the game desiners. The boom gun is only slightly faster than the main gun of a M1 Abrams.

And there you go we have the speed and weight of the APFSDS rounds and a statement that the body armor and small arms used in rifts makes a soldier the equivalent of a modern tank (which would include the M1A1 Abrams at the time of printing) so the peak of GA tech weaponry that is the Boomgun would have to be at least 10 x faster than the APFSDS round or the big gun would be no better than the small arms a CS trooper carries.

[Zer0 Kay]

The x100 weapons have to short a range.
As I recall your argument was that you were going to use an array of the capitol x1000 weapons, and then trade the damage for range to get the needed range.
My point here is that there is no way to FIT ten or one hundred of the x1000 weapons into a 'satellite' to even attempt to begin this (even assuming that you could trade damage for range, or that you can combine multiple units into one beam)

The x100 weapon in MiO is implied to have 36,000mile range in one of only two ways the text can work. The PW setting was to show that technologically it could be done in the setting.

That is why I didn't use a RL drive. I used the fictional ones in the book. Specifically the one that says that its only fuel is electricity.

Even the fictional ones in the book can not escape the reality here. You do not gain anything by switching to the fictional drives in MiO.

The drive you champion doesn't work for a host of reasons you are choosing to ignore. It still uses fuel, it has a lower size limit, and is rare.

So no, there is nothing supporting a weapon with a 36,000 mile range.

The text implies the range on the Satellites in question are either 36,000miles or better than 60miles (lowest stable orbit around the moon).

IRL ion engines aren't used because their acceleration is to slow for gravity wells. That is why they only used for deep space probes where constant acceleration is more important than the amount of thrust. Duration over volume.

The acceleration/thrust is correct. Ion-type engines are also used for the occasional/rare satellite in Earth orbit where the time involved for the propulsion manuevers is not a concern.

Daaaang those must be out there.

[Zer0 Kay]

Where do they come from?

Well it's a magical place that gave us weapons that fire light weight rounds traveling mach 5 that somehow don't do less than M1's auto cannon. And in fact can do 30 times the damage.

The Golden Age.

What model of the M1 auto loads? Though mach 7 is ridiculously slow for a railgun. Iirc the navy's is Mach 20 something and a much larger round.

You're right, it doesn't. Not enough coffee and I make mistakes like that...

And after some math, a boom gun round would have to weigh like 4kg and travel at near mach 20 to do what it does. And whoa, that real life range...

Lol no kidding the naval one has a ridiculous range. But we already know that pb ranges are skewed.

[Library Ogre]

So, thinking about it, how long before the orbitals start exploiting the system a bit? Transdimensional TMNT implies that the ATB version of MiO has the Empire Of Humanity on Venus, and there's already asteroid mining... but what about the outer system?

[Brayon]

So, thinking about it, how long before the orbitals start exploiting the system a bit? Transdimensional TMNT implies that the ATB version of MiO has the Empire Of Humanity on Venus, and there's already asteroid mining... but what about the outer system?

IIRC, There is a Mars Colony with Mutant Insects. Based on MiO Tech info, I can see C.A.N. Moonbase, & one of the other stations doing a joint venture to Jupiter & its moons. Io is would be the main target for exploration, in my opinion.

[Nightmask]

So, thinking about it, how long before the orbitals start exploiting the system a bit? Transdimensional TMNT implies that the ATB version of MiO has the Empire Of Humanity on Venus, and there's already asteroid mining... but what about the outer system?

Odds are there are a few groups that have explored beyond what's been commonly checked out, since if you're wealthy enough you could manage what amounts to a long-range colony ship that could handle traveling past the Asteroid Belt to the outer planets. Something to keep in mind about AtB, unlike the original module the MiO book is written around the RPG is WAY more technologically advanced especially in the field of genetics compared to the original module, where all mutant animals were a product of mutating events from their Cataclysm. The space colonies would still retain this since they never really had the crash problem Earth had so never fell back into barbarity and they had some fantastic creations so super-efficient hydroponics and oxygen production/CO2 scrubbing plant life would be easy to do.

So there could easily be some small unknown bases hidden around where someone set up shop and using those genetic technologies has been slowly breeding up and expanding to take over their chosen location. Something else to consider, their genetics knowledge is advanced enough the RPG version of AtB might NOT have the low-gravity issues on the moon, they may have tweaked things so that the low-gravity hasn't caused the kinds of issues it's caused for humans in Rifts and other settings without that technology.

[ShadowLogan]

So you feel that it is more plausible to give them 4+ Elder Race weapons with 36,000 mile ranges, than a number of stock phaseworld class 100mile particle beams? (Heck if you want a source......make them salvaged from the Ahrkhons. One of those Arkhon ships might have enough particle beams of this class to work, and if not copy that one model.....)

I'm not sure I would quantify 36,000 miles as an Elder Race Weapon based on the Dominators. Or even RT/M2.

Given that this weapon is a particle beam, and the MiO community has shields that degrade the effectiveness of PBCs by 50% the system in question is looking less and less militarily effective against the MiO community, though against unknowns (who can't come fully prepared) it probably is far more effective. And that assumes a fleshed out version doesn't introduce any additional drawbacks, since I would not characterize the description of the weapon in MiO to be anything more than crib-notes.

Based on MiO Tech info, I can see C.A.N. Moonbase, & one of the other stations doing a joint venture to Jupiter & its moons. Io is would be the main target for exploration, in my opinion.

Why Io? That is likely one of the least likely places CAN/station(s) would be interested in. Water is on the other 3 Galilean moons, which everyone needs (and water ice is used to determine value of an item).

[Library Ogre]

So, what might we be looking at? The orbitals have a pretty significant resource problem, and asteroid mining is likely to be only one part of it. Comet wrangling (especially for water)? Hell, what about trips to Europa to get water? Even if they're hyper-efficient recyclers, expansion is going to require more water.

Conversely, what might they do, given the listed tech, to deal with Venus? Anyone put colonies there in aerostats? Any attempt at de-Hellifying it? If they could start making landfall on Venus, that gives them a lot of room to expand and even more resources.

[Alrik Vas]

Apparently there is water in mars...? Think I read that recently.

[ShadowLogan]

Apparently there is water in mars...? Think I read that recently.

Water has been known to be there trapped in ice form at the polar caps for a long time, it was even stated to be a resource on Mars in the MiO book. What you are recalling is the discovery of liquid water on Mars being indirectly observed, it would also be very salty (so you'd need to desalinate it).

So, what might we be looking at? The orbitals have a pretty significant resource problem, and asteroid mining is likely to be only one part of it. Comet wrangling (especially for water)? Hell, what about trips to Europa to get water? Even if they're hyper-efficient recyclers, expansion is going to require more water.

Europa and other large moons of Jupiter with water ice would be attractive, but Jupiter's intense gravity may make it more economical to skip Jupiter and go straight to Saturn.

Expansion will require more water, which they can find at Saturn to. Water Ice can be found on various moons in the solar system if you know where to look, and most of them shouldn't have locally gravity stronger than the Moon or Mars on the surface.

Conversely, what might they do, given the listed tech, to deal with Venus? Anyone put colonies there in aerostats? Any attempt at de-Hellifying it? If they could start making landfall on Venus, that gives them a lot of room to expand and even more resources.

I don't think Venus would be attractive for settlers:
-no water, so you need to import all the water
-Venus's local gravity is on par with Earth's, so Orbitals who can go there are going to be limited

As far as making Venus more liveable, the Orbitals don't have the technology to really do anything. I know they have Terra forming equipment for Mars, but Mars and Venus require one to take different approaches. Venus will need some way to cool off, which IMHO is outside of their technology level (talking a shade x2 the diameter of Venus). Even once you cool things down, you still need to import all of your water (Moon has hydrogen and oxygen elements so they can manufacture water, Venus doesn't).

[glitterboy2098]

actually you don;t have to go all the way to the outer system.

Ceres has a lot of water ice under it's surface. and we know from MiO that the orbitals make runs out to the main belt on a regular basis, and are colonizing it. (IIRC, ceres itself was supposed ot be one of the main colony sites. the book was just written before the find of water)

[taalismn]

Rifts Venus:
*Venus Transformed----You can go utterly radical: The Rifts have appeared around Venus and done something; either have or are in the process of altering the environment to something more hospitable to human life. Problem is, unless you know what the mechanism or reason is, what you don't know could kill you.
For example, David Drake built on Henry Kuttner's wet-Venus story 'Clash by Night' by turning his Venus into terraforming gone bad when the heavier solar radiation mutated the terraforming organisms into a deathworld ecology where just about EVERYTHING is lethally opportunistic.
Other mechanisms can include out of control Earth-origin terraforming technology, alien terraforming(and they don't like guests) or a mass-magic transformation spell that gradually turns visitors into part of the overall planetary scheme. Or maybe big dimensional Rifts that take you to an alternate inhabitable Venus.

*Utterly Alien Life---Venus is just as lethal as before, but the Rifts have brought lifeforms that LIKE it that way. Fire Elementals, or 'Hot Jupiter' gasbag-style aliens, or burrowing extremaphiles. And either they have something of value to the other powers in the solar system, or they threaten to become expansionist, turning other planets into Venus-forms, or they just want to clean the neighborhood of any pesky neighbors. Either way, it's a reason to get involved in the Venus situation.

[glitterboy2098]

venus is actually a bit more conductive to colonization than peopel think.

while the surface is inhospitable, the upper atmosphere (30 miles up) is a fairly sedate temp, free of most of the corrosive chemicals, and because of the atmospheric density, human breathable atmosphere acts as a lift gas..

all of which adds up to it being possible to build floating cities in the clouds.

also, given the orbitals known geneenginering tech, it would not be hard to engineer some aerorobes.. microbes engineered to live in the clouds. engineer some to metabolize the sulfur compounds in the lower atmosphere, others as photosynthetics to convert CO2 into carbon compounds and O2.

you'd have to keep up a steady bombardment of comets to introduce enough water into the atmosphere to support the photosynthetic ones, but together that would (fairly quickly,) convert the upper atmosphere at least into a semi-habitable area.. the surface is pretty much a loss (the heat and pressure makes it really hard to fix that, short of using "elder race" level god-tech to remove most of the atmosphere)

if the terraforming stuff is started early after the cataclysm, or even a bit before, and kept up the whole time, by PA110 you could have a whole microbiotic ecosystem in place in the clouds. and an atmosphere capable of sustaining engineered airborne lifeforms. shades of The Horror of the Heights

[Nightmask]

So you feel that it is more plausible to give them 4+ Elder Race weapons with 36,000 mile ranges, than a number of stock phaseworld class 100mile particle beams? (Heck if you want a source......make them salvaged from the Ahrkhons. One of those Arkhon ships might have enough particle beams of this class to work, and if not copy that one model.....)

I'm not sure I would quantify 36,000 miles as an Elder Race Weapon based on the Dominators. Or even RT/M2.

Given that this weapon is a particle beam, and the MiO community has shields that degrade the effectiveness of PBCs by 50% the system in question is looking less and less militarily effective against the MiO community, though against unknowns (who can't come fully prepared) it probably is far more effective. And that assumes a fleshed out version doesn't introduce any additional drawbacks, since I would not characterize the description of the weapon in MiO to be anything more than crib-notes.

Since when are the Dominators NOT in the Elder Race category? Or for that matter since when don't the Robotech Masters qualify? Certainly their weapons tech qualifies based on range and damage.

[Nightmask]

Check out The Martian Way by Isaac Asimov, due to anti-Martian politicals on Earth trying to cut off the supply of water to Mars from Earth their ice wranglers (aka Scavengers) end up developing a plan to simply go to Saturn, reshape one of the massive ice chunks into a vaguely space-ship shape, plug their own ships into carefully arranged holes (since their engines use water as reaction mass they can get all they need from the ice asteroid) and simply pilot the entire thing back to Mars so that in that one run they take care of decades of water needs and provide for massive expansion. As he makes clear in the story there are more than enough ice chunks like that around just in the Rings for Saturn and Jupiter to find all you need for decades to come in a single package.

[taalismn]

venus is actually a bit more conductive to colonization than peopel think.
if the terraforming stuff is started early after the cataclysm, or even a bit before, and kept up the whole time, by PA110 you could have a whole microbiotic ecosystem in place in the clouds. and an atmosphere capable of sustaining engineered airborne lifeforms. shades of The Horror of the Heights

Even with that all, Venus looks not particularly attractive....All it's really got going for it is gravity, some shielding from solar radiation due to its(improved) atmosphere and not immediate death in event of a hull breach. In space, you fall off, you're likely to float in space until somebody 'pods out and retrieves you, not skydive and go splat, and the Venus colony's nearest source of raw materials is down under the pressure cooker. Unless you got plenty of cheap robots or very well equipped and foolhardy labor to mine the Venusian surface, you're better off with a free space habitat somewhat out farther, where you can coast rocks and iceballs up to and cut them up for your use.
Unless, of course, you find HeeChee artifacts on Venus...

Venus is, IMHO, one of those colony efforts made out of either supreme desperation(*"We need living space for people who can't get the hang of living in space habitats and we got nothing closer to go to."), supreme arrogant idealism ("We can do it because..."), or vanity("Cloud cities are so posh in concept...").

[ShadowLogan]

Since when are the Dominators NOT in the Elder Race category? Or for that matter since when don't the Robotech Masters qualify? Certainly their weapons tech qualifies based on range and damage.

I am not saying that the Dominators (or RT/M2) don't qualify as having Elder Race category, I'm saying the MiO Community doesn't qualify as having Elder Race level technology.

MiO weapon of 36,000miles is far short of the Dominators 200,000mile weapons on their Star Forts. So compared to the Dominators the MiO communities would not be at Elder Race level.

Macross2's BFGs also fall in the 200,000mile range in space. RT is a bit more complicated because it depends on edition. 1E isn't really any different than M2, but 2E has neutered the ranges quite a bit (more so given dialogue cues) so that a 36,000mile weapon is w/n the 2E's RAW range level (11,000-60,000miles) for their BFGs, though RT still has damage advantages.

[Nightmask]

Since when are the Dominators NOT in the Elder Race category? Or for that matter since when don't the Robotech Masters qualify? Certainly their weapons tech qualifies based on range and damage.

I am not saying that the Dominators (or RT/M2) don't qualify as having Elder Race category, I'm saying the MiO Community doesn't qualify as having Elder Race level technology.

MiO weapon of 36,000miles is far short of the Dominators 200,000mile weapons on their Star Forts. So compared to the Dominators the MiO communities would not be at Elder Race level.

Macross2's BFGs also fall in the 200,000mile range in space. RT is a bit more complicated because it depends on edition. 1E isn't really any different than M2, but 2E has neutered the ranges quite a bit (more so given dialogue cues) so that a 36,000mile weapon is w/n the 2E's RAW range level (11,000-60,000miles) for their BFGs, though RT still has damage advantages.

36,000 miles is far and beyond the range anyone else can even remotely manage, hence why suggesting it's no big deal that the CAN Republic could produce a weapon with such a range is met with disbelief that you think it's NOT game-breaking and way beyond what's clearly possible based on what we see of every other weapon on Rifts Earth and even compared to mature interstellar age technology in Phase World.

[ShadowLogan]

36,000 miles is far and beyond the range anyone else can even remotely manage, hence why suggesting it's no big deal that the CAN Republic could produce a weapon with such a range is met with disbelief that you think it's NOT game-breaking and way beyond what's clearly possible based on what we see of every other weapon on Rifts Earth and even compared to mature interstellar age technology in Phase World.

Still 36,000miles is not characteristic of "Elder Race" level technology, they include it yes, but that level of technology is not part of that level of technology IMHO because Elder Race weapons fall in the 200,000mile range category.

I have given this some thought recently, but the Satellites could increase the range of the range of their lasers by use of Fibre Optics that would allow the satellite to be many miles (as in 1,000s) away from the actual aperture, maybe even toss in a few signal repeaters, to grant them the appearance of super ranges. A similar system would also work for Particle Beams (though would work closer to a particle accelerator). This still retains the non-Elder Race ranges in a practical sense seen even in PW as the release aperture would be where he range would "start" from. It might also explain why the PBC satellites in question aren't listed with a recharge time, since the "Fibre Optic" equivalent might need to be repaired/replaced after so many shots.

[glitterboy2098]

Fiber optics? I think that people would notice a couple thousand miles of cables stretched out over space.

[Library Ogre]

The idea of magic in terraforming Venus is very interesting. While siphoning off the atmosphere via tech would be difficult, if you could make an air-permeable portal that appeared at a lower altitude, you could wreak havoc by passing a large amount of Venus-atmosphere into an otherwise habitable world... or have fun by "fixing" Venus's deep atmosphere, and bleeding some of it to help reatmosphere Mars (until the solar wind stripped it away, but that could be centuries)

[eliakon]

36,000 miles is far and beyond the range anyone else can even remotely manage, hence why suggesting it's no big deal that the CAN Republic could produce a weapon with such a range is met with disbelief that you think it's NOT game-breaking and way beyond what's clearly possible based on what we see of every other weapon on Rifts Earth and even compared to mature interstellar age technology in Phase World.

Still 36,000miles is not characteristic of "Elder Race" level technology, they include it yes, but that level of technology is not part of that level of technology IMHO because Elder Race weapons fall in the 200,000mile range category.

I think the reason that Nightmask and I feel it is Elder Race par (or near to it) is that it is 1/6th the range of a Dominator weapon, but 360x the range of any non elder races weapon. Its much, much closer to the elder race side of the spectrum than the mundane one. Especially for a group that is supposed to be less advanced than the Kittani and Naruni....

I have given this some thought recently, but the Satellites could increase the range of the range of their lasers by use of Fibre Optics that would allow the satellite to be many miles (as in 1,000s) away from the actual aperture, maybe even toss in a few signal repeaters, to grant them the appearance of super ranges. A similar system would also work for Particle Beams (though would work closer to a particle accelerator). This still retains the non-Elder Race ranges in a practical sense seen even in PW as the release aperture would be where he range would "start" from. It might also explain why the PBC satellites in question aren't listed with a recharge time, since the "Fibre Optic" equivalent might need to be repaired/replaced after so many shots.

Well first off I do not belive that there is any precident for a fiber optic system that can handle weapons grade lasers, never mind MDC ones let alone capitol ship class ones...
Secondly unless you are building an approximately 36,000 mile long particle accelerator, which you then teather to the moon.....
....wouldn't that need massive numbers of drives to keep aligned, and maintenance crews to repair it, and mass more than the entire rest of the orbital infrastructure in MiO by a couple orders of magnitudes?

[Nightmask]

36,000 miles is far and beyond the range anyone else can even remotely manage, hence why suggesting it's no big deal that the CAN Republic could produce a weapon with such a range is met with disbelief that you think it's NOT game-breaking and way beyond what's clearly possible based on what we see of every other weapon on Rifts Earth and even compared to mature interstellar age technology in Phase World.

Still 36,000miles is not characteristic of "Elder Race" level technology, they include it yes, but that level of technology is not part of that level of technology IMHO because Elder Race weapons fall in the 200,000mile range category.

I think the reason that Nightmask and I feel it is Elder Race par (or near to it) is that it is 1/6th the range of a Dominator weapon, but 360x the range of any non elder races weapon. Its much, much closer to the elder race side of the spectrum than the mundane one. Especially for a group that is supposed to be less advanced than the Kittani and Naruni....

That pretty much covers it, the range plus damage is just too many times beyond what we see with any other weapon system even in the satellite sized or ship sized weapons. If such ranges were seen in other energy weapons around and that damage as well in even remotely the same size it would be possible to suspend disbelief that it had such range, but it's so far beyond anything else that it's just not an acceptable break. The range would be just too good to not be making more of it and putting them to use in eliminating all threats from the other colonies instead of wasting it by putting it in a satellite focused on one tiny portion of the moon. The range would be so phenomenal they could easily defeat anyone before they could even hope to get in range with anything short of a mile thick piece of MDC material to take the hits as they tried to get into range of their own puny in comparison weapons.

[ShadowLogan]

I think the reason that Nightmask and I feel it is Elder Race par (or near to it) is that it is 1/6th the range of a Dominator weapon, but 360x the range of any non elder races weapon. Its much, much closer to the elder race side of the spectrum than the mundane one. Especially for a group that is supposed to be less advanced than the Kittani and Naruni....

Just because the group is supposed to be less advanced overall than the Kittani (who are held back I remind you) and the Naruni (who hold back all the good stuff for themselves) does not mean they can not have areas where they are more advanced. Just look at WB2, the Kittani are said to be behind the CS when it comes to Genetic Engineering (pg35 "recently they have embarked on a new leel of genetic research and manipulation and have a successfully cloned dog boys and are on the verge of figuring out the genetic manipulation process to create dog boys from animals, just like the Coalition.") but a head of Triax generally (who is a head of the CS). So it is possible to be less advanced overall, but still have areas of superiority.

Well first off I do not belive that there is any precident for a fiber optic system that can handle weapons grade lasers,

http://www.army-technology.com/news/new ... em-4524845
http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/aero ... ser-weapon

These aren't quite what I had in mind, but they do show that fiber optics can be involved in generating weaponized effects.

Secondly unless you are building an approximately 36,000 mile long particle accelerator, which you then teather to the moon.....
....wouldn't that need massive numbers of drives to keep aligned, and maintenance crews to repair it, and mass more than the entire rest of the orbital infrastructure in MiO by a couple orders of magnitudes?

There is no way you can avoid the issue of maintenance repair crews. The Satellites in question have a payload of 30 shots, with no recharge rate given.

You don't need to teather it to the Moon, that would turn the system into a Space Elevator. You would need to do some station keeping at the L1 point (even w/regular satellite), but the system shouldn't be to taxing for the Orbitals in terms of mass given the volume of mass involved with the various space stations.

I am thinking they would look at using a Linear Particle Accelerator for inspiration here, segmenting the parts that actually need to interact with the particle beam. Those parts would act as "repeaters" to keep the signal strong down the track.

The range would be just too good to not be making more of it and putting them to use in eliminating all threats from the other colonies instead of wasting it by putting it in a satellite focused on one tiny portion of the moon.

That assumes there isn't some other macguffin factor(s) involved that limits the ability to produce the weapons, like a rare element, or even its effective value (Particle/Laser reduction techniques exist in MiO).

The Colonies are described as finding that type of attitude distasteful based on the text about "senseless slaughter" (pg64). That to me says they wouldn't look to just vaporize an enemy colony w/o a pretty good reason to justify said action.

[eliakon]

I think the reason that Nightmask and I feel it is Elder Race par (or near to it) is that it is 1/6th the range of a Dominator weapon, but 360x the range of any non elder races weapon. Its much, much closer to the elder race side of the spectrum than the mundane one. Especially for a group that is supposed to be less advanced than the Kittani and Naruni....

Just because the group is supposed to be less advanced overall than the Kittani (who are held back I remind you) and the Naruni (who hold back all the good stuff for themselves) does not mean they can not have areas where they are more advanced. Just look at WB2, the Kittani are said to be behind the CS when it comes to Genetic Engineering (pg35 "recently they have embarked on a new leel of genetic research and manipulation and have a successfully cloned dog boys and are on the verge of figuring out the genetic manipulation process to create dog boys from animals, just like the Coalition.") but a head of Triax generally (who is a head of the CS). So it is possible to be less advanced overall, but still have areas of superiority.

Let me rephrase that. More advanced than every race known in the entire rifts universe with the exception of the Elder Races (maybe).

Well first off I do not belive that there is any precident for a fiber optic system that can handle weapons grade lasers,

http://www.army-technology.com/news/new ... em-4524845
http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/aero ... ser-weapon

These aren't quite what I had in mind, but they do show that fiber optics can be involved in generating weaponized effects.

There is a difference in 'has a bundle of fibers as a lasing element' and 'once the laser is generated runs down the fiber'
Especially since the articles explicitly talk about how the fibers can't handle to much power and have heating issues.....

Secondly unless you are building an approximately 36,000 mile long particle accelerator, which you then teather to the moon.....
....wouldn't that need massive numbers of drives to keep aligned, and maintenance crews to repair it, and mass more than the entire rest of the orbital infrastructure in MiO by a couple orders of magnitudes?

There is no way you can avoid the issue of maintenance repair crews. The Satellites in question have a payload of 30 shots, with no recharge rate given.

The issue is 'do I need a crew of a dozen or so people for four satellites or do I need a crew of thousands to work on hundreds of thousands of miles worth of accelerator (each satellite needs its own accelerator since they accelerate in straight lines.....which also begs the question of how you AIM this system but that's not really important)

You don't need to teather it to the Moon, that would turn the system into a Space Elevator. You would need to do some station keeping at the L1 point (even w/regular satellite), but the system shouldn't be to taxing for the Orbitals in terms of mass given the volume of mass involved with the various space stations.

by 'tether to the moon' I meant 'it is locked into a fixed orbit over two locations on the moons surface'
and by taxing in mass....
what would be the volume of this system? No seriously how big are we talking here? Lets look at it in cubic feet because I have a suspicion that it would end up out massing most of those space stations....possibly all of them.

I am thinking they would look at using a Linear Particle Accelerator for inspiration here, segmenting the parts that actually need to interact with the particle beam. Those parts would act as "repeaters" to keep the signal strong down the track.

So to avoid putting station keeping drives on the four original weapons satellites (because anything not in L1 needs a station keeping drive)....we are putting station keeping drives on hundreds or thousands (or more likely hundreds of thousands) of satellites....
because lets face it they will need repeater stations at an absolute minimum of 100 miles (the maximum range of a PB canon).
so 360 of these for each of the sats. And that is assuming that you can have the repeaters that far apart.
This is also assuming that such repeaters would even work but that's a totally different topic, I will allow the handwave here for now.

So now, to avoid putting 4+ Particle Beam weapons platforms 'on station', kept there by drives, over the moon....
we have put 4 particle accelerators in L1, each of which then has 360+ station kept repeater units.
And this is some how a better, more logical, easier solution that fits with the text?
We have now increased the fuel costs (remember those, the reason that supposedly we cant use the platforms on station?)
by a thousand fold!
Its no longer a satellite if it has to have hundreds of repeaters to reach its target, its and entire constellation of them....it is, in fact more satellites than officially are used in the entire containment of Earth!
Assuming that each repeater is ONLY 10 tons, that is 14,400 tons of material at an absolute bare minimum. And that is if we give them Phase World weapons to work with. If they have to use their own weapons (generously put at 3 miles) they are looking at 480,000 tons of 10 ton satellites. If they have to be even closer the numbers only go up. And lets remember every one of these needs to be maintained, and defended as it is in enemy territory (the Outcasts if no one else would be happy to steal these). But alas adding defensive weaponry will just push up the size, complexity, and cost of the system further....
Also lets not forget the nearly .4 second time lag that has been put in from requsting fire, to fire hitting. I hope you were not planning on hitting moving, man sized targets....
I think that Occam's razor gets to apply in this case....

[ShadowLogan]

There is a difference in 'has a bundle of fibers as a lasing element' and 'once the laser is generated runs down the fiber'
Especially since the articles explicitly talk about how the fibers can't handle to much power and have heating issues.....

Yes there are differences, but it does show that fibre optics can be used for weaponized effects.

The issue is 'do I need a crew of a dozen or so people for four satellites or do I need a crew of thousands to work on hundreds of thousands of miles worth of accelerator (each satellite needs its own accelerator since they accelerate in straight lines.....which also begs the question of how you AIM this system but that's not really important)

Aiming is likely handled at the release aperture. Repair teams likely aren't going to be much different in size to what the stations need to handle a job.

what would be the volume of this system? No seriously how big are we talking here? Lets look at it in cubic feet because I have a suspicion that it would end up out massing most of those space stations....possibly all of them.

To figure that out we would need to know the materials involved, not to mention the diameter/specs of the "barrel" in question (and the barrel is going to be mostly empty space). Neither of which we can know.

(because anything not in L1 needs a station keeping drive).

Even items in L1 need a station keeping drive, as L1/L2/L3 are unstable but the amount is drastically reduced.

The system will behave like a tethered system, which means it orbits at the centre of mass (which in this case can be set up up to be L1), even if it extends much farther down the gravity well. Technically this means we could have 2 or 3 satellites connected by long tethers, with L1 at their centre of mass allowing them to all orbit as if at L1.

because lets face it they will need repeater stations at an absolute minimum of 100 miles (the maximum range of a PB canon).

The repeaters though are part of the "fibre optic"-esque cable that runs down to a lower orbit.

[Library Ogre]

You know, thinking more about the moon colonies, especially as there's MiO to consider (I know Rifts MiO is lighter on the Mutants, but bear with me)...

Consider if you have a community of mutant prairie dogs up there. They're not a bad choice... they're community minded, and well-adapted to living underground. But they can also dig like the dickens. Now, imagine the possibilities for a moon colony that has prairie dogs dealing with the expansion. You put their scree outside, so you just have to worry about getting more atmo for the expanded space, but in a geologically stable structure like the moon, you could have a significant warren in a relatively short time... especially if non PD engineers were in charge of the shoring up (so as to free the PDs for significant digging).

And, of course, eventually, the ones who dig too deep on the moon might free something...

[glitterboy2098]

so to save on the expense of having to refuel a drive equipped satellite, or to avoid having to admit the author didn't know what he was talking about and switch it to a series of satellite orbiting the moon normally, your advocating the construction of a gun barrel 35,000 miles long?** one that would costs billions of times more than refueling or a satellite network, and would mass something like several thousands of tons?

one that would have to extend through an area right next to either Freedom Station (the moon colonies biggest enemy) or the junkyard region (a region filled with debris and home to its own rift effects and demon incursions..)

and, btw, would require anchoring at the polar region to remain stationary and functional, requiring a massive tower to be built in the region of rift effects and demon incursions.

such a construct would also be an easy way for enemies of the moon to invade, since it would also double as a space elevator that crawler vehicles could ascend/descend in order to bypass the normal issues of orbiting and landing on the moon.


so basically, your advocating the construction of something massively expensive and complicated, that has to be built inside hostile territories, and which is actually a huge gap in the defenses of the moon...

in order to save a few tons a month on fuel for a satellite, or the cost of orbiting a few dozen satellites.





** actually more like 75,000.. since you'd have to have a counterweight on a cable extending past the Lagrange point to make it all work.. which would double the effective length. without the counter weight to offset the mass of the cable the entire thing would come crashing down.

[eliakon]

There is a difference in 'has a bundle of fibers as a lasing element' and 'once the laser is generated runs down the fiber'
Especially since the articles explicitly talk about how the fibers can't handle to much power and have heating issues.....

Yes there are differences, but it does show that fibre optics can be used for weaponized effects.

But they can't be used to run a military grade laser now, let alone not just an MD laser but a CAPITOL SHIP one.

The issue is 'do I need a crew of a dozen or so people for four satellites or do I need a crew of thousands to work on hundreds of thousands of miles worth of accelerator (each satellite needs its own accelerator since they accelerate in straight lines.....which also begs the question of how you AIM this system but that's not really important)

Aiming is likely handled at the release aperture. Repair teams likely aren't going to be much different in size to what the stations need to handle a job.

My point is that this is going to need a repair team about the same size as one of the entire stations....
And the aim question brings up the .4second light lag.

what would be the volume of this system? No seriously how big are we talking here? Lets look at it in cubic feet because I have a suspicion that it would end up out massing most of those space stations....possibly all of them.

To figure that out we would need to know the materials involved, not to mention the diameter/specs of the "barrel" in question (and the barrel is going to be mostly empty space). Neither of which we can know.

We can make a few guesses. It will not be smaller than the smallest known PB Satellite. That puts a lower boundry of 3 tons per station. (remember these are best case sceniario numbers). As for numbers. From L4 to the moon you need 36,000 miles of reach.
If we generously say that the first station can fire 100 miles, and that each additional station can boost it another 100 miles. That means we need a total of 360X4=1440 Repeater stations. Each of which costs, and minimum 1m and weighs 3 tons (if they are simply able to make it as cheaply as the generic Particle Beam kill sat). That is 1.44 BILLION IOU and 4,320 tons. Just of repeaters (and that is if they are able to use phase world level tech. If they have to use their own tech it increases by approximately x50

Those Repeater stations I might remind you will need station keeping drives, as they are not in L4. How do you propose to keep them from just floating away. Unless of course they are in a teathered cable. Which is going to cost TENS of billions, take decades to build, and is going to rival the stations in size. Assuming that each cable is only 1' in diameter (I doubt it could be done but lets be generous here) that is 760,320,000 cf

(because anything not in L1 needs a station keeping drive).

Even items in L1 need a station keeping drive, as L1/L2/L3 are unstable but the amount is drastically reduced.

I thought you said that the geostationary orbits for the moon were L1 and L2.
If they need a drive even there.....
....then the argument that we must have a system with no drive (a primary argument against the 'near moon' set up) is null as what ever drive the L1 system can have, is just as expensive to operate fuel wise (never mind how much fuel it took to build this....)

The system will behave like a tethered system, which means it orbits at the centre of mass (which in this case can be set up up to be L1), even if it extends much farther down the gravity well. Technically this means we could have 2 or 3 satellites connected by long tethers, with L1 at their centre of mass allowing them to all orbit as if at L1.

Wait a second. Is this four 36,000 mile long barrels or sets of free floating repeaters.

because lets face it they will need repeater stations at an absolute minimum of 100 miles (the maximum range of a PB canon).

The repeaters though are part of the "fibre optic"-esque cable that runs down to a lower orbit.

Except that
1) fiber-optics moves light (lasers), not particle beams
2) now we are inventing yet another ultra advanced tech with no parallels anywhere (Which wasn't mentioned in the first book I sort of think that a cable running from L1 or L2 to the south lunar pole is going to be worth mentioning....
3) how much exactly does 4 cables, each 36,000 miles cost?
4) how do you stabilize it?

I mean seriously. You are telling me that the cheaper, easier, more logical option is to have the most massive construction project in human history. Something that will cost billions or trillions of IOU take resources equal to likely every space ship in the entire solar system.....
Or go to page 78 buy 4 Military space ships, toss on some drives, and park them in the decaying orbits over these points, and just use the drive to readjust as needed? (Which would be 'on station overhead at all times' and if this isn't a full spaceship it would be a satellite)
Seriously?
Especially since the biggest arguments I have seen against it is
1) That it must be a 'killer satellite' and thus it cant be a ship or weapons platform. Except that I don't think that a particle beam cannon 36,000 miles long counts as a satellite anymore either
2) That it is too expensive to build the satellite as you need to spend to much money on the drive. Except that I don't think that your going to build these tethers for less than 20-30 million a pop, which suddenly makes the traction drive the cheaper alternative.
3) That the fuel for the drive is to expensive and wasteful....and how much fuel would be needed over how many decades to run how many cargo and construction ships to build this tether? You could run 4 weapons platforms for centuries on that sort of fuel....

I understand that you really, really want the particle beams to be in L1 or L2. And that is fine if you want to do that in your game.
But there is no reasonable way to implement that in the setting as written.
One can rewrite the setting from scratch to include the necessary changes (cables from L1, elder race weapons, chains of thousands of repeater sats....what ever) but as written the only way to implement this is to put it in a 'Statite' orbital weapons platform.

[Zer0 Kay]

Why would a weapon reaching out and touching something in space 36,000 miles a way not be possible? A PBW is limited in an atmosphere because the particles are deflected by other atmospheric particles which aren't present in space. Even a bullet could reach that far no problem. The only issue should be targeting which on a "stationary" object shouldn't be too difficult but next to impossible again moving targets. Unfortunately were dealing with a game system that for some reason thinks a laser ir particle beam will sputter out after 4x the atmospheric range.

[eliakon]

Why would a weapon reaching out and touching something in space 36,000 miles a way not be possible? A PBW is limited in an atmosphere because the particles are deflected by other atmospheric particles which aren't present in space. Even a bullet could reach that far no problem. The only issue should be targeting which on a "stationary" object shouldn't be too difficult but next to impossible again moving targets. Unfortunately were dealing with a game system that for some reason thinks a laser ir particle beam will sputter out after 4x the atmospheric range.

Particle beams are one of the weapons that do realistically have this problem. They tend to spread out and lose energy, even in the vacuum conditions inside a particle accelerator. At these ranges even a laser in the RW is going to spread out. The Lasers fired at the Moon from earth (half the distance) are ~6.5 Kilometers wide.......

[glitterboy2098]

actually the reason getting itto shoot that far would difficult boils down to the nature of the beam.

the charges of the particles in the beam will repel each other, which reduces its intensity. this is called electrostatic bloom. as the energy level of the particles is increased, the amount of bloom also increases. and unlike a laser you have a lot fewer options for focusing it to reduce the effect. their charge also means they are effected by things like magnetic fields (like the earth's magnetosphere) and the like.

particle beams in a vacuum will bloom themselves to ineffectiveness within a couple miles. if you want to increase the effective range you have to pump more energy into it, to create a beam with higher energy states.. which increases the bloom effect, but also means that any given square area will have a high enough intensity to do some damage anyway.


lasers have much the same issue, though they are neutrally charged. they have a natural tendency to lose focus over distance due to the interactions of the photons with each other. it's not as bad as particle beams, where EM effects come into play, but it is an issue. a beam that is pencil thin fired from the surface of the earth or in orbit will spread out to a football fields width by the time it reaches the moon. and that is with optics to minimize the spread.

you can build a weaponized system with that kind of range, but you'd be looking at the inverse.. a football field sized beam to start focused down to be pencil thin at the target. (because such a beam would be immense in power density at the start, and the avoid melting your own weapon you'd have to use a diffuse beam to start.) which means you'd need adaptive optics ten football fields across (the optics array of a laser run about 10x wider than the intended beam, in order to minimize aberration effects from the optics that would increase beam spread and reduce the power)