Storming Atlantis.

[say652]

A single werewolf is launched to intercept.

At the edge of space the Missile hits something that well it can't pass through because it deals no damage to it....
Massive light show, wolf boy falls back to atmosphere a flaming comet, crater and is unhurt.

Welcome to Rifts Earth Mechanoid, bring it.

[Q99]

Can the Kitanni leave the Splugoorth service, learn magic, build unlimited numbers of Dragon Dreadnaughts, conquer worlds on their own, or defy a order from a Splugoorth or higher ranking minion?

No.

If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. Even if you call it something else.

The Kitanni are slaves, useful, well treated, happy, and privileged; but still slaves.

No, but.... they can own property, don't have owners themselves, are free to associate with who they want within their society, buy what they want, move jobs, etc.. And even with higher ranking minions, I don't think ones just a level or so up like most Kydians can give unquestioned orders (though some deference is expected), it's only like, High Lords that are definite 'always listen to or you die'.

It's a middle ground. They're definitely in a highly controlled society, but have a fair amount of personal freedom within it.

Or to put it another way, Kittani are Minions. Not slaves, but not free either.

[Ed]

A single werewolf is launched to intercept.

At the edge of space the Missile hits something that well it can't pass through because it deals no damage to it....
Massive light show, wolf boy falls back to atmosphere a flaming comet, crater and is unhurt.

Welcome to Rifts Earth Mechanoid, bring it.

ROFLMAO!

That fails at least five different ways.

1. Earth bound launchers can't get a missile through the orbital debris field.
2. A surface launched missile couldn't hit something this small going this fast.
3. A heavier, faster object will simply knock a slower, lighter object out of the way.
4. Werewolf immunity to damage doesn't make one immovable.
5. If by some miracle conditions 1-3 don't apply, dump 48 gigatons of energy into the atmosphere. There still won't be a planet left.

[Ed]

Can the Kitanni leave the Splugoorth service, learn magic, build unlimited numbers of Dragon Dreadnaughts, conquer worlds on their own, or defy a order from a Splugoorth or higher ranking minion?

No.

If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. Even if you call it something else.

The Kitanni are slaves, useful, well treated, happy, and privileged; but still slaves.

No, but.... they can own property,

. No, they can't. Their Splugoorth master can own property, but the Kitanni don't.

don't have owners themselves,

No, they are owned by the Splugoorth.

are free to associate with who they want within their society, buy what they want, move jobs, etc..

No they can't. They are allowed to follow orders, that many of these orders give the illusion of personal freedom is irrelevant. The illusion can be revoked at any time for any reason.

And even with higher ranking minions, I don't think ones just a level or so up like most Kydians can give unquestioned orders (though some deference is expected), it's only like, High Lords that are definite 'always listen to or you die'.

It's a middle ground. They're definitely in a highly controlled society, but have a fair amount of personal freedom within it.

Or to put it another way, Kittani are Minions. Not slaves, but not free either.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, feathers, wings and webbed feet just like a duck. Giving it a fancy name doesn't change the fact it's a duck.

[eliakon]

Can the Kitanni leave the Splugoorth service, learn magic, build unlimited numbers of Dragon Dreadnaughts, conquer worlds on their own, or defy a order from a Splugoorth or higher ranking minion?

No.

If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. Even if you call it something else.

The Kitanni are slaves, useful, well treated, happy, and privileged; but still slaves.

No, but.... they can own property,

. No, they can't. Their Splugoorth master can own property, but the Kitanni don't.

Source?

don't have owners themselves,

No, they are owned by the Splugoorth.

Source?

are free to associate with who they want within their society, buy what they want, move jobs, etc..

No they can't. They are allowed to follow orders, that many of these orders give the illusion of personal freedom is irrelevant. The illusion can be revoked at any time for any reason.

Source?

And even with higher ranking minions, I don't think ones just a level or so up like most Kydians can give unquestioned orders (though some deference is expected), it's only like, High Lords that are definite 'always listen to or you die'.

It's a middle ground. They're definitely in a highly controlled society, but have a fair amount of personal freedom within it.

Or to put it another way, Kittani are Minions. Not slaves, but not free either.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, feathers, wings and webbed feet just like a duck. Giving it a fancy name doesn't change the fact it's a duck.

Then I guess everyone in the CS is a slave. Because they have to follow orders of the military or die
I guess every peasent ever was a slave, since they were not free to move.

Slave and Minion are different, that is why on page 43 they have a list with Minions and Slaves as different areas
Or we can assume that the Splugorth also consider dragons to be their slaves, and all their allies to be slaves.....
Since if everything on the chart that is Not Splugorth is a slave....

Atlantis pg. 52 "an alliance was struck that has lasted 38,000 years." "The Kittani serve the splugorth well and faithfully" "The only known Kittani in existence are those who have sworn loyalty to the Splugorth"

Sounds like it is an alliance, where they serve the empire as willing minions. That's a far cry from the descriptions of slaves.

But if you have a book citation that says different, please by all means, share it.

[Alrik Vas]

Yes, let's just dump 48 gigatons of energy into the atmosphere. I happen to have that in my sock.

[eliakon]

The Fall Of Atlantis.

Seven Mechanoid Mother Ships move towards the Rifts Earth Planet.

A few weeks of heavy resistance and The Satellite's finally Fall.

Archies Moon Base, is proving difficult other than inferior biped Technology, he is a Robot. Blockade the Entire Moon, we'll keep that for a study..

As the moon is blocked several Billion Mechanoids start a Battle they just might lose, maybe....

Nothing less.and definitely nothing on Rifts Earth can conquer Atlantis.

One battered shuttle craft runs itself to .15 light speed and crashes into the planet. Cracks the crust like a rotten eggshell. Total extinction.

It's a shame that there are no drives in Palladium that can do this though.
The FTL drives break into sub-light when they hit planets, and sub-light drives have top speeds rated in Mach numbers not c fractions.

[flatline]

and sub-light drives have top speeds rated in Mach numbers not c fractions.

This has always amused me. It clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding on the author's part.

[Ed]

The Fall Of Atlantis.

Seven Mechanoid Mother Ships move towards the Rifts Earth Planet.

A few weeks of heavy resistance and The Satellite's finally Fall.

Archies Moon Base, is proving difficult other than inferior biped Technology, he is a Robot. Blockade the Entire Moon, we'll keep that for a study..

As the moon is blocked several Billion Mechanoids start a Battle they just might lose, maybe....

Nothing less.and definitely nothing on Rifts Earth can conquer Atlantis.

One battered shuttle craft runs itself to .15 light speed and crashes into the planet. Cracks the crust like a rotten eggshell. Total extinction.

It's a shame that there are no drives in Palladium that can do this though.
The FTL drives break into sub-light when they hit planets, and sub-light drives have top speeds rated in Mach numbers not c fractions.

ROFLMAO, again.

A space drive capable of Mach five acceleration could reach the necessary velocity in less than eight hours. And could be launched from within the orbit of the moon.

[eliakon]

The Fall Of Atlantis.

Seven Mechanoid Mother Ships move towards the Rifts Earth Planet.

A few weeks of heavy resistance and The Satellite's finally Fall.

Archies Moon Base, is proving difficult other than inferior biped Technology, he is a Robot. Blockade the Entire Moon, we'll keep that for a study..

As the moon is blocked several Billion Mechanoids start a Battle they just might lose, maybe....

Nothing less.and definitely nothing on Rifts Earth can conquer Atlantis.

One battered shuttle craft runs itself to .15 light speed and crashes into the planet. Cracks the crust like a rotten eggshell. Total extinction.

It's a shame that there are no drives in Palladium that can do this though.
The FTL drives break into sub-light when they hit planets, and sub-light drives have top speeds rated in Mach numbers not c fractions.

ROFLMAO, again.

A space drive capable of Mach five acceleration could reach the necessary velocity in less than eight hours. And could be launched from within the orbit of the moon.

Yeah, to bad the weird things that happened to physics in the palladium universe (possibly related to what allows MDC, Magic, and FTL travel) has changed the conservation of momentum. In the Palladium Universe for some reason space ships have a top speed, and are not rated in accelerations.

Now sure, you can change things for your own game to use 'logical real world physics' instead of the published setting....
....but that tends to also require that you have to remove magic, and all the ultra-tech, and the FTL, and most of the aliens, and.....
well hard Sci-Fi tends to be a bit less cinematic than Rifts.

(BTW, there is no such thing as 'Mach 5 acceleration' Acceleration is a change in speed over time. Thus you would need something that is expressed as such....like 'a craft that is capable of accelerating to Mach 5 in 15 seconds, could continue to accelerate.....but Mach 5 itself is a speed, not an acceleration)

[Ed]

Can the Kitanni leave the Splugoorth service, learn magic, build unlimited numbers of Dragon Dreadnaughts, conquer worlds on their own, or defy a order from a Splugoorth or higher ranking minion?

No.

If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. Even if you call it something else.

The Kitanni are slaves, useful, well treated, happy, and privileged; but still slaves.

No, but.... they can own property,

. No, they can't. Their Splugoorth master can own property, but the Kitanni don't.

Source?

don't have owners themselves,

No, they are owned by the Splugoorth.

Source?

are free to associate with who they want within their society, buy what they want, move jobs, etc..

No they can't. They are allowed to follow orders, that many of these orders give the illusion of personal freedom is irrelevant. The illusion can be revoked at any time for any reason.

Source?

And even with higher ranking minions, I don't think ones just a level or so up like most Kydians can give unquestioned orders (though some deference is expected), it's only like, High Lords that are definite 'always listen to or you die'.

It's a middle ground. They're definitely in a highly controlled society, but have a fair amount of personal freedom within it.

Or to put it another way, Kittani are Minions. Not slaves, but not free either.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, feathers, wings and webbed feet just like a duck. Giving it a fancy name doesn't change the fact it's a duck.

Then I guess everyone in the CS is a slave. Because they have to follow orders of the military or die
I guess every peasent ever was a slave, since they were not free to move.

In either case does the superior hold absolute power of life and death over the peasant or CS citizen? Demonstrably no.

Does the Splugoorth hold absolute power of life and death over the Kitanni. Demonstrably yes.

Slave and Minion are different, that is why on page 43 they have a list with Minions and Slaves as different areas

One has a better name and implies being a willing or well-adjusted participant; the end result is the same.

[quoteOr we can assume that the Splugorth also consider dragons to be their slaves, and all their allies to be slaves.....
Since if everything on the chart that is Not Splugorth is a slave....[/quote]

Whip that strawman!

Do the Splugorth hold absolute power over dragons or their theoretical allies? No. Therefore not slaves.

Atlantis pg. 52 "an alliance was struck that has lasted 38,000 years." "The Kittani serve the splugorth well and faithfully" "The only known Kittani in existence are those who have sworn loyalty to the Splugorth"

Sounds like it is an alliance, where they serve the empire as willing minions. That's a far cry from the descriptions of slaves.

But if you have a book citation that says different, please by all means, share it.

Actually, the Kitanni sold their entire race into eternal servitude 38,000 years ago. A transaction so effective there no longer exist Kitanni who are not slaves. You can try and dress up the deal with fancy talk of alliances and willing faithful service, but the bottom line is the Kitanni sold their future.

[Alrik Vas]

So the Kittani being slaves or well-paid minions has a bearing on how you storm Atlantis how?

[Ed]

The Fall Of Atlantis.

Seven Mechanoid Mother Ships move towards the Rifts Earth Planet.

A few weeks of heavy resistance and The Satellite's finally Fall.

Archies Moon Base, is proving difficult other than inferior biped Technology, he is a Robot. Blockade the Entire Moon, we'll keep that for a study..

As the moon is blocked several Billion Mechanoids start a Battle they just might lose, maybe....

Nothing less.and definitely nothing on Rifts Earth can conquer Atlantis.

One battered shuttle craft runs itself to .15 light speed and crashes into the planet. Cracks the crust like a rotten eggshell. Total extinction.

It's a shame that there are no drives in Palladium that can do this though.
The FTL drives break into sub-light when they hit planets, and sub-light drives have top speeds rated in Mach numbers not c fractions.

ROFLMAO, again.

A space drive capable of Mach five acceleration could reach the necessary velocity in less than eight hours. And could be launched from within the orbit of the moon.

Yeah, to bad the weird things that happened to physics in the palladium universe (possibly related to what allows MDC, Magic, and FTL travel) has changed the conservation of momentum. In the Palladium Universe for some reason space ships have a top speed, and are not rated in accelerations.

Now sure, you can change things for your own game to use 'logical real world physics' instead of the published setting....
....but that tends to also require that you have to remove magic, and all the ultra-tech, and the FTL, and most of the aliens, and.....
well hard Sci-Fi tends to be a bit less cinematic than Rifts.

(BTW, there is no such thing as 'Mach 5 acceleration' Acceleration is a change in speed over time. Thus you would need something that is expressed as such....like 'a craft that is capable of accelerating to Mach 5 in 15 seconds, could continue to accelerate.....but Mach 5 itself is a speed, not an acceleration)

One has the choice to read spaceship performance as velocity or acceleration, imo you should use velocity when in an atmosphere and delta-v when outside of one. Regardless, the velocity cap is cinematically ridiculous as well as there could be no space operatic adventures if it were held to be true.

[Ed]

So the Kittani being slaves or well-paid minions has a bearing on how you storm Atlantis how?

I never claimed it did. Ymmv.

[Alrik Vas]

Okay, then the argument can be dropped as irrelevant. Good to know.

[eliakon]

One battered shuttle craft runs itself to .15 light speed and crashes into the planet. Cracks the crust like a rotten eggshell. Total extinction.

It's a shame that there are no drives in Palladium that can do this though.
The FTL drives break into sub-light when they hit planets, and sub-light drives have top speeds rated in Mach numbers not c fractions.

ROFLMAO, again.

A space drive capable of Mach five acceleration could reach the necessary velocity in less than eight hours. And could be launched from within the orbit of the moon.

Yeah, to bad the weird things that happened to physics in the palladium universe (possibly related to what allows MDC, Magic, and FTL travel) has changed the conservation of momentum. In the Palladium Universe for some reason space ships have a top speed, and are not rated in accelerations.

Now sure, you can change things for your own game to use 'logical real world physics' instead of the published setting....
....but that tends to also require that you have to remove magic, and all the ultra-tech, and the FTL, and most of the aliens, and.....
well hard Sci-Fi tends to be a bit less cinematic than Rifts.

(BTW, there is no such thing as 'Mach 5 acceleration' Acceleration is a change in speed over time. Thus you would need something that is expressed as such....like 'a craft that is capable of accelerating to Mach 5 in 15 seconds, could continue to accelerate.....but Mach 5 itself is a speed, not an acceleration)

One has the choice to read spaceship performance as velocity or acceleration, imo you should use velocity when in an atmosphere and delta-v when outside of one. Regardless, the velocity cap is cinematically ridiculous as well as there could be no space operatic adventures if it were held to be true.

Yes, you are perfectly free to make a house rule to change what the books say sure....
But as written the books give maximum speeds. Ergo, they have maximum speeds.

[eliakon]

On the (possibly off topic) Kitanni discussion. Spoiler to keep short for those who are not interested.
(should I move this to a new thread?)

Spoiler:

Can the Kitanni leave the Splugoorth service, learn magic, build unlimited numbers of Dragon Dreadnaughts, conquer worlds on their own, or defy a order from a Splugoorth or higher ranking minion?

No.

If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. Even if you call it something else.

The Kitanni are slaves, useful, well treated, happy, and privileged; but still slaves.

No, but.... they can own property,

. No, they can't. Their Splugoorth master can own property, but the Kitanni don't.

Source?

I am still waiting for a source for this claim.

don't have owners themselves,

No, they are owned by the Splugoorth.

Source?

And this one.

are free to associate with who they want within their society, buy what they want, move jobs, etc..

No they can't. They are allowed to follow orders, that many of these orders give the illusion of personal freedom is irrelevant. The illusion can be revoked at any time for any reason.

Source?

And this one.

And even with higher ranking minions, I don't think ones just a level or so up like most Kydians can give unquestioned orders (though some deference is expected), it's only like, High Lords that are definite 'always listen to or you die'.

It's a middle ground. They're definitely in a highly controlled society, but have a fair amount of personal freedom within it.

Or to put it another way, Kittani are Minions. Not slaves, but not free either.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, feathers, wings and webbed feet just like a duck. Giving it a fancy name doesn't change the fact it's a duck.

Then I guess everyone in the CS is a slave. Because they have to follow orders of the military or die
I guess every peasent ever was a slave, since they were not free to move.

In either case does the superior hold absolute power of life and death over the peasant or CS citizen? Demonstrably no.

Does the Splugoorth hold absolute power of life and death over the Kitanni. Demonstrably yes.

And this is demonstrated where?

Slave and Minion are different, that is why on page 43 they have a list with Minions and Slaves as different areas

One has a better name and implies being a willing or well-adjusted participant; the end result is the same.

So you contend. Now do you have some sort of evidence to back this up?

Or we can assume that the Splugorth also consider dragons to be their slaves, and all their allies to be slaves.....
Since if everything on the chart that is Not Splugorth is a slave....

Whip that strawman!

Its not a strawman. The organizational chart on page 43 shows the Kittani above slaves. If all the people on the chart are actually slaves, that requires the Dragons to also be slaves.
The dragons are demonstrably NOT slaves
Ergo the chart is not a hierarchy of slaves.

Do the Splugorth hold absolute power over dragons or their theoretical allies? No. Therefore not slaves.

Atlantis pg. 52 "an alliance was struck that has lasted 38,000 years." "The Kittani serve the splugorth well and faithfully" "The only known Kittani in existence are those who have sworn loyalty to the Splugorth"

Sounds like it is an alliance, where they serve the empire as willing minions. That's a far cry from the descriptions of slaves.

But if you have a book citation that says different, please by all means, share it.

Actually, the Kitanni sold their entire race into eternal servitude 38,000 years ago. A transaction so effective there no longer exist Kitanni who are not slaves. You can try and dress up the deal with fancy talk of alliances and willing faithful service, but the bottom line is the Kitanni sold their future.

They made a deal that they would be saved yes. No one disputes that.
But if you are going to make the assertion that it is not just an alliance (which the Kittani and Splugorth are still following the terms of) but out and out slavery, then you need to back it up with evidence.
Simply saying "I think they are slaves" is not evidence.
You need a specific line from a book that say that they are slaves, or that they do not have rights, or what have you.

[Nightmask]

The Fall Of Atlantis.

Seven Mechanoid Mother Ships move towards the Rifts Earth Planet.

A few weeks of heavy resistance and The Satellite's finally Fall.

Archies Moon Base, is proving difficult other than inferior biped Technology, he is a Robot. Blockade the Entire Moon, we'll keep that for a study..

As the moon is blocked several Billion Mechanoids start a Battle they just might lose, maybe....

Nothing less.and definitely nothing on Rifts Earth can conquer Atlantis.

One battered shuttle craft runs itself to .15 light speed and crashes into the planet. Cracks the crust like a rotten eggshell. Total extinction.

It's a shame that there are no drives in Palladium that can do this though.
The FTL drives break into sub-light when they hit planets, and sub-light drives have top speeds rated in Mach numbers not c fractions.

ROFLMAO, again.

A space drive capable of Mach five acceleration could reach the necessary velocity in less than eight hours. And could be launched from within the orbit of the moon.

Yeah, to bad the weird things that happened to physics in the palladium universe (possibly related to what allows MDC, Magic, and FTL travel) has changed the conservation of momentum. In the Palladium Universe for some reason space ships have a top speed, and are not rated in accelerations.

Now sure, you can change things for your own game to use 'logical real world physics' instead of the published setting....
....but that tends to also require that you have to remove magic, and all the ultra-tech, and the FTL, and most of the aliens, and.....
well hard Sci-Fi tends to be a bit less cinematic than Rifts.

(BTW, there is no such thing as 'Mach 5 acceleration' Acceleration is a change in speed over time. Thus you would need something that is expressed as such....like 'a craft that is capable of accelerating to Mach 5 in 15 seconds, could continue to accelerate.....but Mach 5 itself is a speed, not an acceleration)

Uh no, there's no requirement that you have to remove the magic, ultra-tech, etc when using more realistic physics where they should be used in place of a writer's poor research or understanding of something.

[Nightmask]

and sub-light drives have top speeds rated in Mach numbers not c fractions.

This has always amused me. It clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding on the author's part.

Maybe he was suffering from the Viewers Are Morons trope and wrote from that perspective instead of writing things more realistically?

[Alrik Vas]

I'd love to give them even that credit, Nightmask...but...

[eliakon]

[
One battered shuttle craft runs itself to .15 light speed and crashes into the planet. Cracks the crust like a rotten eggshell. Total extinction.

It's a shame that there are no drives in Palladium that can do this though.
The FTL drives break into sub-light when they hit planets, and sub-light drives have top speeds rated in Mach numbers not c fractions.

ROFLMAO, again.

A space drive capable of Mach five acceleration could reach the necessary velocity in less than eight hours. And could be launched from within the orbit of the moon.

Yeah, to bad the weird things that happened to physics in the palladium universe (possibly related to what allows MDC, Magic, and FTL travel) has changed the conservation of momentum. In the Palladium Universe for some reason space ships have a top speed, and are not rated in accelerations.

Now sure, you can change things for your own game to use 'logical real world physics' instead of the published setting....
....but that tends to also require that you have to remove magic, and all the ultra-tech, and the FTL, and most of the aliens, and.....
well hard Sci-Fi tends to be a bit less cinematic than Rifts.

(BTW, there is no such thing as 'Mach 5 acceleration' Acceleration is a change in speed over time. Thus you would need something that is expressed as such....like 'a craft that is capable of accelerating to Mach 5 in 15 seconds, could continue to accelerate.....but Mach 5 itself is a speed, not an acceleration)

Uh no, there's no requirement that you have to remove the magic, ultra-tech, etc when using more realistic physics where they should be used in place of a writer's poor research or understanding of something.

So what you are saying is that we should selectively choose which instances of violations of real world physics are acceptable, and which ones are not.
Do you have a proposed standard for determining which violations are to be changed?
Or is it just "well the ones I disagree with"?
Because while this particular case is patently impossible using real world physics.....so is much of the rest of the game, but we are not questioning if it is possible to do things like:
-Create matter and/or energy (magic does this, a lot).
-Not conserve momentum (punching something for several inch/tons of pressure should push back on the puncher....but it doesn't)
-Move objects faster than light
-Have inanimate processes (such as spells or psionic powers) make informed decisions on intent
-Have as a 'morality' (good/evil) be a fundamental, detectable force.
-That all life bearing worlds, and all life (except for rare exceptions) all have the exact same biochemical needs, are completely biochemically compatible with each other.....but that there is no cross species disease problems
-That we can make nuclear power plants that have a two year life span, but are small enough to fit in exoskeletons
-It is possible to make disassembler nanites that work on any substance....but that have no heat issues
-that we can make energy beams that impart direct kinetic energy
-that we can turn inertia on or off
All of this (and more) is fine, but we can not accept that their space ship rules violate the laws of physics.

[Nightmask]

Yeah, to bad the weird things that happened to physics in the palladium universe (possibly related to what allows MDC, Magic, and FTL travel) has changed the conservation of momentum. In the Palladium Universe for some reason space ships have a top speed, and are not rated in accelerations.

Now sure, you can change things for your own game to use 'logical real world physics' instead of the published setting....
....but that tends to also require that you have to remove magic, and all the ultra-tech, and the FTL, and most of the aliens, and.....
well hard Sci-Fi tends to be a bit less cinematic than Rifts.

(BTW, there is no such thing as 'Mach 5 acceleration' Acceleration is a change in speed over time. Thus you would need something that is expressed as such....like 'a craft that is capable of accelerating to Mach 5 in 15 seconds, could continue to accelerate.....but Mach 5 itself is a speed, not an acceleration)

Uh no, there's no requirement that you have to remove the magic, ultra-tech, etc when using more realistic physics where they should be used in place of a writer's poor research or understanding of something.

So what you are saying is that we should selectively choose which instances of violations of real world physics are acceptable, and which ones are not.
Do you have a proposed standard for determining which violations are to be changed?
Or is it just "well the ones I disagree with"?
Because while this particular case is patently impossible using real world physics.....so is much of the rest of the game, but we are not questioning if it is possible to do things like:
-Create matter and/or energy (magic does this, a lot).
-Not conserve momentum (punching something for several inch/tons of pressure should push back on the puncher....but it doesn't)
-Move objects faster than light
-Have inanimate processes (such as spells or psionic powers) make informed decisions on intent
-Have as a 'morality' (good/evil) be a fundamental, detectable force.
-That all life bearing worlds, and all life (except for rare exceptions) all have the exact same biochemical needs, are completely biochemically compatible with each other.....but that there is no cross species disease problems
-That we can make nuclear power plants that have a two year life span, but are small enough to fit in exoskeletons
-It is possible to make disassembler nanites that work on any substance....but that have no heat issues
-that we can make energy beams that impart direct kinetic energy
-that we can turn inertia on or off
All of this (and more) is fine, but we can not accept that their space ship rules violate the laws of physics.

No, what I said was in your fallacious argument that one does not in actual fact have to give up X, Y, and Z in order to retain or impose RL Physics A, B, and/or C. I don't know why have to repeat this but this game like nearly every other has at the underlying level the physics and other features of the real world EXCEPT WHERE NECESSARY TO SUPPORT THE NON-REAL WORLD ASPECTS. Earth has the same mass in the game as it does RL, the Moon orbits it at the same range and speed as it does in the real world, everything operates as it does in the real world except where the non-RL elements intrude. Which means that no there is no drag in space not even in Rifts and if a book is poorly written so as to imply that then obviously the book in that instance must be rejected because insisting it to be accurate to the setting would mean there would BE no setting.

The moon would have long since collided with the Earth and done so well before humanity evolved because this impossible drag would have slowed it until it fell into the Earth, but then again not like there would be a solar system anyway since everything would have slowed and fallen into the sun ages ago. So you CAN'T insist on any such nonsense if that's implied or stated in the book because the setting becomes impossible to maintain and the level of house-ruled nonsense you'd have to include to justify the mistake is far worse and less rational than just going 'well the book's obviously wrong, there is no drag in space' or 'well the tops speeds are obviously wrong I need to fix that, or work out something that could justify it, like that's the best speed without using up so much fuel as to make the speed a suicidal choice' and so on.

[Alrik Vas]

Ah...see...you're applying real life again and mucking it all up.

[Nightmask]

Ah...see...you're applying real life again and mucking it all up.

No, mucking it up is what happens when you've got poorly thought out or supremely bad rules that when applied without exception mean the setting itself can't exist. You CAN'T get out of having house rules, either by eliminating the rules that are bad or to handwave away all the wrong things that stem from the rule and you'll require way more handwavium houseruling than you'd need to simply toss the bad rule and apply something more reasonable.

This game CANNOT be played without house rules, it's not possible due to how the rules are (such as the aforementioned issue that if you insist the rules for flight and drag apply in space since they don't explicitly say that they don't then everything crashed into the sun and the solar system never formed), so if you're 'oh I never house rule I always play the rules as written' you aren't in fact playing a non-houseruled game because you've already houseruled that the rules that contradict reality that would lead to everything having crashed into the sun long ago don't apply and real world physics hold sway even if you aren't admitting it.

[eliakon]

Yeah, to bad the weird things that happened to physics in the palladium universe (possibly related to what allows MDC, Magic, and FTL travel) has changed the conservation of momentum. In the Palladium Universe for some reason space ships have a top speed, and are not rated in accelerations.

Now sure, you can change things for your own game to use 'logical real world physics' instead of the published setting....
....but that tends to also require that you have to remove magic, and all the ultra-tech, and the FTL, and most of the aliens, and.....
well hard Sci-Fi tends to be a bit less cinematic than Rifts.

(BTW, there is no such thing as 'Mach 5 acceleration' Acceleration is a change in speed over time. Thus you would need something that is expressed as such....like 'a craft that is capable of accelerating to Mach 5 in 15 seconds, could continue to accelerate.....but Mach 5 itself is a speed, not an acceleration)

Uh no, there's no requirement that you have to remove the magic, ultra-tech, etc when using more realistic physics where they should be used in place of a writer's poor research or understanding of something.

So what you are saying is that we should selectively choose which instances of violations of real world physics are acceptable, and which ones are not.
Do you have a proposed standard for determining which violations are to be changed?
Or is it just "well the ones I disagree with"?
Because while this particular case is patently impossible using real world physics.....so is much of the rest of the game, but we are not questioning if it is possible to do things like:
-Create matter and/or energy (magic does this, a lot).
-Not conserve momentum (punching something for several inch/tons of pressure should push back on the puncher....but it doesn't)
-Move objects faster than light
-Have inanimate processes (such as spells or psionic powers) make informed decisions on intent
-Have as a 'morality' (good/evil) be a fundamental, detectable force.
-That all life bearing worlds, and all life (except for rare exceptions) all have the exact same biochemical needs, are completely biochemically compatible with each other.....but that there is no cross species disease problems
-That we can make nuclear power plants that have a two year life span, but are small enough to fit in exoskeletons
-It is possible to make disassembler nanites that work on any substance....but that have no heat issues
-that we can make energy beams that impart direct kinetic energy
-that we can turn inertia on or off
All of this (and more) is fine, but we can not accept that their space ship rules violate the laws of physics.

No, what I said was in your fallacious argument that one does not in actual fact have to give up X, Y, and Z in order to retain or impose RL Physics A, B, and/or C. I don't know why have to repeat this but this game like nearly every other has at the underlying level the physics and other features of the real world EXCEPT WHERE NECESSARY TO SUPPORT THE NON-REAL WORLD ASPECTS. Earth has the same mass in the game as it does RL, the Moon orbits it at the same range and speed as it does in the real world, everything operates as it does in the real world except where the non-RL elements intrude. Which means that no there is no drag in space not even in Rifts and if a book is poorly written so as to imply that then obviously the book in that instance must be rejected because insisting it to be accurate to the setting would mean there would BE no setting.

The moon would have long since collided with the Earth and done so well before humanity evolved because this impossible drag would have slowed it until it fell into the Earth, but then again not like there would be a solar system anyway since everything would have slowed and fallen into the sun ages ago. So you CAN'T insist on any such nonsense if that's implied or stated in the book because the setting becomes impossible to maintain and the level of house-ruled nonsense you'd have to include to justify the mistake is far worse and less rational than just going 'well the book's obviously wrong, there is no drag in space' or 'well the tops speeds are obviously wrong I need to fix that, or work out something that could justify it, like that's the best speed without using up so much fuel as to make the speed a suicidal choice' and so on.

That is your opinion sure.
But my point is that, as written there is no way to get anything up to .15c
You can make up a house rule that allows this sure.
But then its not the game as written, its not even close to the game as written. Its "my version of the game that allows me to do what I think is most realistic for my table" and while that game is probably very interesting for you to play at your table, it has nothing constructive to add to a discussion about the game or ramifications of things inside the game.
It would be like saying "well I don't think the population numbers here are right. So we will just remove the excess people. And look, now what I wanted to happen can happen, so obviously what I want to do works, because see the new numbers allow it."
Yes, its screwed up
Yes, the physics are wacky
And yes it does make it very easy to play for people that don't want to need a graphing calculator to figure out the location and vector of every possible object on a by second basis (for that may I suggest GURPS Transhuman Space)

[Alrik Vas]

No, mucking it up is what happens when you've got poorly thought out or supremely bad rules that when applied without exception mean the setting itself can't exist. You CAN'T get out of having house rules, either by eliminating the rules that are bad or to handwave away all the wrong things that stem from the rule and you'll require way more handwavium houseruling than you'd need to simply toss the bad rule and apply something more reasonable.

This game CANNOT be played without house rules, it's not possible due to how the rules are (such as the aforementioned issue that if you insist the rules for flight and drag apply in space since they don't explicitly say that they don't then everything crashed into the sun and the solar system never formed), so if you're 'oh I never house rule I always play the rules as written' you aren't in fact playing a non-houseruled game because you've already houseruled that the rules that contradict reality that would lead to everything having crashed into the sun long ago don't apply and real world physics hold sway even if you aren't admitting it.

This game isn't meant to be extrapolated out. That's what my comment means. By continuing to do so, you're only proving my point. Which ODDLY ENOUGH, agrees with your original point. Why you're arguing with me is...mind boggling.

[Q99]

On the (possibly off topic) Kitanni discussion. Spoiler to keep short for those who are not interested.
(should I move this to a new thread?)

Quite possibly, depending on how much further reply there is.


My thoughts on the latest round of stuff:

Spoiler:

Atlantis and other Splurgorth civilizations are a heavily capitalistic society, this very obviously requires ownership of property, unless it works entirely by selling to outsiders... which doesn't make a lot of sense, since not all of them even hold dimensional markets. Minions like Kittani, can certainly own slaves even. I mean, who would own the vast majority of the slaves otherwise? Only High Lords? No, we've seen Sunaj own slaves, and they're lower than Kittani on the org chart. If Sunaj can own property- and much like eliakon's dragon analogy, their presence on the org chart also says a lot, that an Atlantean clan was willing to accept that status of their own free will, a status *lower* than the Kittani- then those higher on the chart can as well.


Does a Splugorth hold ultimate power of life and death over Kittani? Yes. That alone doesn't a slave make- feudal rulers have been known to have the authority to order their retainers to commit suicide (in law, if not always practice), which didn't make said retainers slaves, indeed they were quite upper class by the standards of those nations.

Like Knights and Samurai, Kittani are given authority and allowed to go out on their own. They even have their own cities just for them. While they can't go and conquer a world on their own- they do note the privilege of doing so may be *earned*.

And part of this authority means that unlike slaves, a Kittani ditching is actually fairly easy. Kittani are sent out fairly often with either light oversight or where *they* are the oversight. A Kittani scout or spy? It'd be easy to get-lost and let themselves be presumed dead, or a Kittani ship crew to sail far away, but that sort of thing is very rare.

Additionally, Splynn Dimensional Market does talk about them sponsoring *another* species, relatively recently conquered but strong warriors and in a culture that has both slavery and people earning their way out of it, to eventual promotion to non-slave status.

[Slight001]

Personally I regard magic as the manipulation of the quantum fabric of reality. This isn't easy and the collective unconsciousness of life is constantly trying to reassert itself with the mage and psionic just having more uniquely tuned minds able to manifest their will upon the immediate area.

[Ed]

No, mucking it up is what happens when you've got poorly thought out or supremely bad rules that when applied without exception mean the setting itself can't exist. You CAN'T get out of having house rules, either by eliminating the rules that are bad or to handwave away all the wrong things that stem from the rule and you'll require way more handwavium houseruling than you'd need to simply toss the bad rule and apply something more reasonable.

This game CANNOT be played without house rules, it's not possible due to how the rules are (such as the aforementioned issue that if you insist the rules for flight and drag apply in space since they don't explicitly say that they don't then everything crashed into the sun and the solar system never formed), so if you're 'oh I never house rule I always play the rules as written' you aren't in fact playing a non-houseruled game because you've already houseruled that the rules that contradict reality that would lead to everything having crashed into the sun long ago don't apply and real world physics hold sway even if you aren't admitting it.

This game isn't meant to be extrapolated out. That's what my comment means. By continuing to do so, you're only proving my point. Which ODDLY ENOUGH, agrees with your original point. Why you're arguing with me is...mind boggling.

Not only is extrapolation needed it's a design feature written into the fabric of the game.

[Ed]

On the (possibly off topic) Kitanni discussion. Spoiler to keep short for those who are not interested.
(should I move this to a new thread?)

Quite possibly, depending on how much further reply there is.


My thoughts on the latest round of stuff:

Spoiler:

Atlantis and other Splurgorth civilizations are a heavily capitalistic society, this very obviously requires ownership of property, unless it works entirely by selling to outsiders... which doesn't make a lot of sense, since not all of them even hold dimensional markets. Minions like Kittani, can certainly own slaves even. I mean, who would own the vast majority of the slaves otherwise? Only High Lords? No, we've seen Sunaj own slaves, and they're lower than Kittani on the org chart. If Sunaj can own property- and much like eliakon's dragon analogy, their presence on the org chart also says a lot, that an Atlantean clan was willing to accept that status of their own free will, a status *lower* than the Kittani- then those higher on the chart can as well.


Does a Splugorth hold ultimate power of life and death over Kittani? Yes. That alone doesn't a slave make- feudal rulers have been known to have the authority to order their retainers to commit suicide (in law, if not always practice), which didn't make said retainers slaves, indeed they were quite upper class by the standards of those nations.

Like Knights and Samurai, Kittani are given authority and allowed to go out on their own. They even have their own cities just for them. While they can't go and conquer a world on their own- they do note the privilege of doing so may be *earned*.

And part of this authority means that unlike slaves, a Kittani ditching is actually fairly easy. Kittani are sent out fairly often with either light oversight or where *they* are the oversight. A Kittani scout or spy? It'd be easy to get-lost and let themselves be presumed dead, or a Kittani ship crew to sail far away, but that sort of thing is very rare.

Additionally, Splynn Dimensional Market does talk about them sponsoring *another* species, relatively recently conquered but strong warriors and in a culture that has both slavery and people earning their way out of it, to eventual promotion to non-slave status.

The is obviously a great deal of confusion as to the definition of a slave. A slave is property. And as such has only the rights given to it by its owner. The owner can certainly give the slave the ability to own property, so the Kitanni owning slaves is irrelevant. Slaves owning other slaves is common in hierarchical societies where the lower tiers try to work their way up to higher privileges and trust positions of authority. The fact remains, they are still property. Regardless of the name applied to the station. The term Minion merely denotes a slave who has been given more local autonomy, privileges, and authority.

[Leo H]

On the (possibly off topic) Kitanni discussion. Spoiler to keep short for those who are not interested.
(should I move this to a new thread?)

Quite possibly, depending on how much further reply there is.


My thoughts on the latest round of stuff:

Spoiler:

Atlantis and other Splurgorth civilizations are a heavily capitalistic society, this very obviously requires ownership of property, unless it works entirely by selling to outsiders... which doesn't make a lot of sense, since not all of them even hold dimensional markets. Minions like Kittani, can certainly own slaves even. I mean, who would own the vast majority of the slaves otherwise? Only High Lords? No, we've seen Sunaj own slaves, and they're lower than Kittani on the org chart. If Sunaj can own property- and much like eliakon's dragon analogy, their presence on the org chart also says a lot, that an Atlantean clan was willing to accept that status of their own free will, a status *lower* than the Kittani- then those higher on the chart can as well.


Does a Splugorth hold ultimate power of life and death over Kittani? Yes. That alone doesn't a slave make- feudal rulers have been known to have the authority to order their retainers to commit suicide (in law, if not always practice), which didn't make said retainers slaves, indeed they were quite upper class by the standards of those nations.

Like Knights and Samurai, Kittani are given authority and allowed to go out on their own. They even have their own cities just for them. While they can't go and conquer a world on their own- they do note the privilege of doing so may be *earned*.

And part of this authority means that unlike slaves, a Kittani ditching is actually fairly easy. Kittani are sent out fairly often with either light oversight or where *they* are the oversight. A Kittani scout or spy? It'd be easy to get-lost and let themselves be presumed dead, or a Kittani ship crew to sail far away, but that sort of thing is very rare.

Additionally, Splynn Dimensional Market does talk about them sponsoring *another* species, relatively recently conquered but strong warriors and in a culture that has both slavery and people earning their way out of it, to eventual promotion to non-slave status.

The is obviously a great deal of confusion as to the definition of a slave. A slave is property. And as such has only the rights given to it by its owner. The owner can certainly give the slave the ability to own property, so the Kitanni owning slaves is irrelevant. Slaves owning other slaves is common in hierarchical societies where the lower tiers try to work their way up to higher privileges and trust positions of authority. The fact remains, they are still property. Regardless of the name applied to the station. The term Minion merely denotes a slave who has been given more local autonomy, privileges, and authority.

New Thread anyone,new thread? I'mma make the plunge, join me and lets hash this out.

[Tor]

IIRC it effects any flying object.

Decided to review Sedition page 23. Says "any non-living object carried on the wind is sucked into the rift, including missiles."

However since this requires the condition "carried on the wind" (in addition to "non-living") to be fulfilled, we need criteria to establish this.

I believe what comes later does so: "missiles, weapons knocked loose in the air and light objects not touching the ground and weighing under 10 pounds".

I believe this would mean that not all missiles are swallowed, only light-weight missiles. Presumably this includes mini- but I don't know about the heavier types. According to phase world, long-range ones are 1/48 of a ton, which would be over 41 pounds, so they're fine. Can't remember off-hand how much short/medium weigh, I remember I looked at a bunch of missile-launcher data once to do some approximations.

Knowing the weight of bombs and grenades and artillery shells would also be useful to know which are too heavy to be affected by the spell.

Part of what would lead some of us to think otherwise is the report from Jan Yoblensky on Sedition page 9. She describes a volley of nuclear missiles (and nukes only come in medium/heavy) and a rift swallowing missiles (presumably the aforementioned nuke volley) which gives the impression they can at least swallow medium-range missiles.

However... there are ways for magic to reduce the amount that things weigh, so perhaps the way it was done was Tolkeen used magic to decrease the weight of the missiles which then allowed the Swallowing Rift to bring them in.

[eliakon]

IIRC it effects any flying object.

Decided to review Sedition page 23. Says "any non-living object carried on the wind is sucked into the rift, including missiles."

However since this requires the condition "carried on the wind" (in addition to "non-living") to be fulfilled, we need criteria to establish this.

I believe what comes later does so: "missiles, weapons knocked loose in the air and light objects not touching the ground and weighing under 10 pounds".

I believe this would mean that not all missiles are swallowed, only light-weight missiles. Presumably this includes mini- but I don't know about the heavier types. According to phase world, long-range ones are 1/48 of a ton, which would be over 41 pounds, so they're fine. Can't remember off-hand how much short/medium weigh, I remember I looked at a bunch of missile-launcher data once to do some approximations.

Knowing the weight of bombs and grenades and artillery shells would also be useful to know which are too heavy to be affected by the spell.

Part of what would lead some of us to think otherwise is the report from Jan Yoblensky on Sedition page 9. She describes a volley of nuclear missiles (and nukes only come in medium/heavy) and a rift swallowing missiles (presumably the aforementioned nuke volley) which gives the impression they can at least swallow medium-range missiles.

However... there are ways for magic to reduce the amount that things weigh, so perhaps the way it was done was Tolkeen used magic to decrease the weight of the missiles which then allowed the Swallowing Rift to bring them in.

Or it is a list of three things
Missiles (all)
Weapons knocked loose in the air (all)
Light objects not on the ground weighing less then 10 pounds (all)
IMHO Its a list of what is sucked in, not an inclusive list of all features that a thing must possess to be sucked in.

[Tor]

This wouldn't make much sense though, since the spell doesn't talk about giving special treatment to objects based on their nature, only living beings. Why would a weight limit apply to everything except for weapons or missiles? My 12 pound medicine ball is safe if I throw it at the rift, but if Archimedes' Atlas Suit drops his 600 pound rune sword, he's out of luck?

[Brayon]

This wouldn't make much sense though, since the spell doesn't talk about giving special treatment to objects based on their nature, only living beings. Why would a weight limit apply to everything except for weapons or missiles? My 12 pound medicine ball is safe if I throw it at the rift, but if Archimedes' Atlas Suit drops his 600 pound rune sword, he's out of luck?

It's Magic... it doesn't have to make sense.

If you used said Medicine Ball as a Weapon, it would be sucked in as well. Because, It's a Weapon at that point, & the spell affects weapons. Which goes back to the it affects, All Missiles, All Weapons knocked (or Thrown) into the air, or anything that is loose weighting under 10 lbs. (like a stack of papers, leaves, sticks, etc. etc. etc.)

[eliakon]

This wouldn't make much sense though, since the spell doesn't talk about giving special treatment to objects based on their nature, only living beings. Why would a weight limit apply to everything except for weapons or missiles? My 12 pound medicine ball is safe if I throw it at the rift, but if Archimedes' Atlas Suit drops his 600 pound rune sword, he's out of luck?

No, your medicine ball is safe from being automatically swallowed. The wind could still carry it in, and if you throw it at the rift it will pass through, just like aircraft can be sucked in if they fail a piloting roll.

[Tor]

Unless I can throw it directly into the rift, it sounds like it's too heavy for the wind to catch.

"missiles, weapons knocked loose in the air and light objects not touching the ground and weighing under 10 pounds"

Just a weird-looking sentence altogether. There being two "ands"...

A weapon knocked loose in the air wouldn't be touching the ground, so the repeating makes it clear enough that 'not touching the ground' is about objects and that weapons knocked loose in air are an example of that...

Of course "light" appears adjacent to 'objects' so I can see why 'weighing under 10' could be seen as explaining that light and not an attribute of missiles/weapons.

Something like "objects weighing under 10 pounds not touching the ground" would've been clearer though.

[Kiltduderackham]

What do of you got some Nazca line makers together and had them create ley lines that are used to power tw anti magic fields and then round up some anti monsters, dragons for air support, some Native American healing shamans, glitterboys, the lords of Dwemmer with all their golems, a lot of were beasts, nega psychs and psi-nullifiers, psi techs, mystic knights, everybody from Lazlo and New Lazlo, the amazons of Manoa, mind bleeders, those mystic smiths from Russia, the NGR, the mutants of Achilles, a lot of Russian borgs, Reed's Rangers, psi slingers, all the magi of Dwemmer, the New Empire of Japan, the Republic of Japan, and the Tundra Rangers. Maybe. A lot of tw weapons and crap too.

[Blue_Lion]

Unless I can throw it directly into the rift, it sounds like it's too heavy for the wind to catch.

"missiles, weapons knocked loose in the air and light objects not touching the ground and weighing under 10 pounds"

Just a weird-looking sentence altogether. There being two "ands"...

A weapon knocked loose in the air wouldn't be touching the ground, so the repeating makes it clear enough that 'not touching the ground' is about objects and that weapons knocked loose in air are an example of that...

Of course "light" appears adjacent to 'objects' so I can see why 'weighing under 10' could be seen as explaining that light and not an attribute of missiles/weapons.

Something like "objects weighing under 10 pounds not touching the ground" would've been clearer though.

Unless it is light objects not touching the ground and any object under 10 pounds.

That sentence is badly written that it can open up many debates over what it really means. (Magic does not need to be explainable in physics because it is magic.)

could be what is sucked in is determined by magic which would explain why it is some what selective.