VF-8 Logan Veritech Fighter Add-ons (Fan-Fiction)

[ShadowLogan]

NOTE: The following is FAN-FICTION for the 2E RPG

The Logan was designed as a second generation Veritech fighter to emphasize the experiences gained from the VF-1 in the 1st RT War taken to the extreme. To this end it was designed as an ultimate gunfighter in space, a title to which it still retains even into 2044 (the VFB-7/9 Beta comes in close second), with some secondary roles for atmospheric use. This came at the expense of missile capacity and other features.

However as early as 2019 the UEDF: ASC was finding the VF-8 Logan marginally adequate for what it wanted, but as mission creep and operation experience began to be acquired, the Logan was in need of some enhancements. However there was only enough room for minor growth, hardly enough to meet all that was expected of it. As a result the UEDF:ASC and the UEEF adapted the concept of the VF-1's Super Modules (aka FAST PACK) to the Logan, turning the Logan into the core element of a system that would drastically enhance its capabilities. However the TASC in the long run did not want to use Super Modules, which influenced the future AGAC design, and the UEEF favored other avenues to address the issue in the long run. Most of the parts in the UEDF: ASC inventory where mothballed as the AGAC program neared readiness in 2029, and plans where made to 'retire' the Logan for the AGAC where already well on their way when the Masters arrived. If it wasn't for these actions some historians believe, there would have been no need for the AGAC and the 2 RT war could have turned out very differently.

The Super Modules developed for the Logan are far more extensive than the system developed for the VF-1 (in RT 2E RPG and it's 85ep animation, as far as the OSM is concerned...) in terms of options. At full thrust alone (w/no help from the Logan's engines), the system can provide a T/W ratio of 1.8 and all the modules baseline only contribute about four extra tons of mass (this does not consider wing replacements or other internal options).

Dorsal Engine Stations: Mounting VF-1 style dorsal pods is problematical for the way the Logan transforms. The engines actually rotate and requires the connection gear that mounts to the Twin Dorsal Engines and the Super Module to act as an intermediary to allow the super module to remain in the same relative position as a result of transformation. Instead of the twin module setup (as on the VF-1) a single larger module is mounted between and above the nacelles. It features 2 main engines from the Alpha Fighter (yes they will fit if the Alpha forearm arm MM-60 stations are removed) equipped with thrust reverser to help in breaking maneuvers, though primary breaking is handled by other modules. On either side externally are two hard-points (1 each side) equal to an AGACs Hard-point. The forward section of the module is a modular bay and intake air intake system (for the engines for atmospheric flight). Options for the Modular bay include (but are not limited to):
-SRM launcher (equal to BOTH the MM-60 shoulder/upper arm stations on the Alpha, reduce payload by 25% though for the air-intakes)
-2 Medium Range Missiles (specifically made for the launcher)
-"Double Shot" MLOP (basically 2 MLOP from the wings)
-Advanced Avionics Sensors Package & Command and Control Package. It includes a laser designator (standard +1 to strike in ranged combat), a powerful computer system that is networked with the onboard computer to improve combat capabilities that is based in part on various command packages (VF-1S, VHT-1S, VFA-6H) that provide bonuses to the mecha that are HALF the listed Special Bonuses for the VF-1 (round down, yes that means it can result in Zero)
-x2 EP-20 firing together (can also be tied into the nose gun for x3 damage, or other forward facing guns), with their own energy capacitors (and is not recharged by the mecha)
-x3 M-57 without the Grenade Launchers, mounted as a multi-barrel weapon. A dedicated SLMH power source is included to power the weapon, provides 90shots each barrel (fired in volleys of 1 or 3)

Forearm Stations: In fighter mode the module is dorsally mounted instead of ventrally (as on the VF-1). The payload bay is un-usable in fighter mode as the leg modules can interfere with use. The payload bay can be configured to carry:
-As if it was an external Hardpoint on the Logan (ie 2SRM or 1MRM)
-Early version of the AGAC's IWS-40 Ion Cannons that use a capacitor system (treat payload as identical to the EP-20, BUT the system IS NOT recharged by the mecha)
-Podded version of the Logan's LPW-20 Plasma Cannon with its own capacitor system (see IWS-40)

Lower Leg Stations (Type 1): This module is all about providing additional thrust and maneuvering power, including a breaking system (thrust is not optimally delivered). The engine is derived from the Alpha program like the Dorsal station. The extra maneuvering power is basically consumed in accounting for the extra mass of the overall Super Module setup. (GM option to allow a +1 to regular dodge or parry). Using shaping and a "transformation track" the module does not interfere with the forearm module, the transformation track moves the bulk of the module up/down the track depending on the mode.

Lower Leg Stations (Type 2): When additional thrust/maneuvering power was not called for, these modules where configured with smaller and lighter engines intended to only compensate for the added mass and drag for the modules and their payload. Initially the payload was configured as a "holster" for additional EP-20 gunpod (with recharging station), though selection later expanded to include repackaged "giant" versions of the M-57s from the Manticore nt-PA and a MLOP disposable gunpods (Logan MLOPs with a trigger and grip) among other gunpods. Like the Type 1 Lower leg station, it has to be mounted on a transformation "track" due to the forearm stowage position. Both the Type 1 and Type 2 Lower Leg Stations can be equipped with mode limiting rail station (basically identical to the Logan's native hard point) and extend in such away that they do not interfere with the native hard-point carriage.

Modular Wing Replacements: The TASC and UEEF have experimented with several variations on the Wing design of the Logan. These replace the existing wing, and are easily installed and slide into the slot. The Logan's transformation doesn't even notice, but its handling does. In addition to the standard wing (as presented in the 2E RPG):
-Shield Wing. The wing is strengthen and reinforced to act as a parry shield much like the VHT-1 has. (Inspired by 1E RPG take on a scene from the animation) The wing is virtual indistinguishable from the standard wing, but is x4 stronger (and +1 Parry).
-a delta wing to improve aerodynamics, it is much larger than the standard wing improving aerobatic handling (+1 to applicable D20 rolls and +5% to piloting checks). It includes a wingtip rail system for x1 SRM. (note: you could take a VF-1 tail and use it as a wing giving it a nice flying wing-esque appearance in fighter mode)
-space wing missile pod, a space only wing option that mounts 9 Short Range Missiles or 4 Medium Range Missiles mounted in launch tubes inside the "wing frame" and do not effect transformation (don't need to be ejected/clear). These "wings" are anything but, acting more like a podded missile launcher and have removed the aerodynamic control surfaces (the space maneuvering engines remain)

Internal Replacements: (This is based on a frame from the old Sentinels comics showing the Logan firing missiles from internal bays). The rear landing gear (legs) and two of the VTOL vents in the chest are replaced with disguised missile launchers (each is a 2 shot SRM launcher) with another launcher located on top of the Guardian (based on the comic panel, this launcher could not fire with a Super Module in place on the engines). This requires the Logan to take off and land in Gaurdian or VTOL mode, it can not land in fighter mode (it has no landing gear).

Auxiliary Main Wing Module (aka the Logan's Beta): Since the Logan was initially designed and geared toward space use (IMHO) and relies on raw thrust to stay aloft in an atmosphere, developers where tasked with addressing this shortcoming via the add-on Super Module approach. Finding a place to put a new wing was considered difficult, and initially was the reason for the modular wing replacements. However, when evaluating places to put additional breaking power the Super Modules Team came up with a solution to mount the wing root to the shoulder/thruster array and extending backward (much like the Alpha). Not being overly constrained to existing transformation actuators, the wing could be fairly effective from an aerodynamic perspective. However the mounting had to take into account the forearm station, this resulted in an inverted Gull-Wing with the outer section folding up to minimize width in Guardian mode, it also sweep back to minimize blocking the pilot's view as much as possible. When this module is utilized the native wing is "stowed" as if in Guardian mode. Like the Beta, it features a single VF-1 class hard-point on each wing, but the hard-point must be cleared before transformation.

[Arnie100]

EXCELLENT! I always wanted to give the Logan more teeth and better options! I actually like this baby mecha (dives for cover). It kinda grows on you...THANK YOU!

[taalismn]

Again, excellent work, ShadowLogan. In lieu of the 1st ed. SuperLogan being mass-produced, these will do quite nicely to keep the Flying Cat flying and relevant.

[ShadowLogan]

Thank you guys.

If you or anyone has ideas for additional add-ons, go for it.

[taalismn]

Thank you guys.

If you or anyone has ideas for additional add-ons, go for it.

The single-mount Skylord surface-to-space superheavy missile hardpoint underneath the Logan; yeah, the missile is bigger than the mecha, and the latter basically rides the former into orbit; but when you REALLY want to say "**** YOU, XENOSCUM!" while yeehawing into the teeth of that alien battlewagon in low orbit, it's the suicidal option of traditionalist kamikaze types.

[glitterboy2098]

my version of the lower leg modules (which i have looking like shrunk down VF-1 leg super packs) are just extra fuel tanks, meant to extend their endurance in vacuum where they're using SLMH as both fuel for the fusion engine and remass for propulsion. (fusion VF's in space accordingly run out of SLMH a lot faster in my take.. a VF-1's week of fuel for atmospheric flight runs out in a few hours of thrust in space.. of course you can coast too to extend things)

a suggestion for further leg pods? a "type 2" that mounts a certain number of mini-missiles. only usable in battloid mode (due to the difficulty in aiming the unguided missiles in fighter mode), but doesn't hinder transformation. could fluff it to be used when mostly ground combat is expected.

honestly, i could see an "armored logan" kit similar to the VF-1's.. forearm module with heavier armor and maybe some built in weapons, the leg modules, and a torso armor pack with some sort of centrally mounted (between or below the engines) aft thruster/weapons array and extra armor plate for the front. you'd have to cover up the cockpit though so obviously visibility would be reduced. (might be a good in fluff reason for use of the armor kit to be limited.. it makes the the logan tougher and more powerful in battloid, but prevents transformation and slows it down in speed and agility enough it's gonna take more hits. plus the reliance on sensors due to a blocked cockpit view making pilots dislike it..)



instead of mounting an ICBM to a logan, do the opposite.. mount a logan instead of the payload capsule of the skylord. the ICBM would them work like the VF-1's orbital booster pack, the mecha riding that pillar of flame all the way to orbit..

[taalismn]

instead of mounting an ICBM to a logan, do the opposite.. mount a logan instead of the payload capsule of the skylord. the ICBM would them work like the VF-1's orbital booster pack, the mecha riding that pillar of flame all the way to orbit..

Indeed, that's the PRACTICAL and SENSIBLE use of Skylord components.
But it lacks the pure insanity of riding several megatons, Nantucket slay-ride style, into the face of the enemy.

[Arnie100]

But it lacks the pure insanity of riding several megatons, Nantucket slay-ride style, into the face of the enemy.

Like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -lores.jpg

[Alrik Vas]

If you want to put FAST Packs on a Logan, I'd suggest forcing them to conform with transformation practices of pilot training.

Whatever you put on the legs should increase fuel and maneuverability, probably add some chaff/flares if they were never included so the Logan has more survivability against missile using opponents (which I get the gist of how most enemies don't after the Zentradi...but...sometimes enemies are former friends, and all the UEEF's friends use missiles). Whatever is packed onto the main body should increase speed and firepower. Because of the Veritech's size...you basically HAVE to go with Alpha style SRMs or you're just not fitting anything. Though they should make a special air to ground missile for it with submunitions to really pelt the crap out things.

Though also, if you want get fancy, you could just mount honeycomb mini-missile racks like mouse ears. As basically rockets, they work fine vs ground targets, and if you get WP bonuses, make called shots, they can take out invid too. Probably 12 per launcher.

On the arms? How do you mount anything on the arms with the wing folding in the way?

[Arnie100]

MM-10 Micro-Missile system:

http://image01.seesaawiki.jp/h/n/harmon ... 443a53.gif

[taalismn]

I favor the FASTPacks over the Skylord launch. system. If you remove the missile launchers and use the boosters themselves as disposable boosters, you get more power-to-weight ratio, they're easier to fit, and you could conceiveably use the existing VF-1 launch tractors for tactical launches(ala the old 'zero length launch' schemes of the Cold War) into low orbit. If you WANT to have a little extra weight, add countermeasure launchers to obscure the heat and radar returns, shedding weight on the way up, and hopefully making it more difficult for enemy sensors in orbit to pick off your fighters as they ascend to engagement altitudes.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly i'd prefer the skylord type set up. FAST packs would add enough drag that i think they'd offset whatever gains you get in atmosphere, and i doubt they could pack enough fuel onto a logan to get it to orbit and still have remass enough to do anything.

whereas a Single stage rocket booster to get it up to orbit means that it can go up with a full fuel load. plus if you design the booster right, you could send it up with a full set of FAST packs as well, which makes it a force multiplier over all.

of course if you really want to be mean.. take one of those heavy lift boostersthe UEDF used with their shuttles, dock a dozen Logans around it's sides, and launch a whole squadron at a time.

[taalismn]

honestly i'd prefer the skylord type set up. FAST packs would add enough drag that i think they'd offset whatever gains you get in atmosphere, and i doubt they could pack enough fuel onto a logan to get it to orbit and still have remass enough to do anything.

whereas a Single stage rocket booster to get it up to orbit means that it can go up with a full fuel load. plus if you design the booster right, you could send it up with a full set of FAST packs as well, which makes it a force multiplier over all.

of course if you really want to be mean.. take one of those heavy lift boostersthe UEDF used with their shuttles, dock a dozen Logans around it's sides, and launch a whole squadron at a time.

Skylord's a silo-launch job, though, I was thinking in terms of field deployments without the need for elaborate ground installations. Either you'd have to hoist the Logan upright over a silo'ed Skylord, or attach it in a horizontal state and lever the missile upright.
D'oh...or you could have the Logan simply walk over to the silo, and squat itself upright atop the missile....

I'm getting an image of some desperate Southern Cross pilot rigging up just such a kludge to get himself into orbit and to the evacuation fleets during the early days of the Invid Occupation.

[glitterboy2098]

to be honest i wasn't thinking an actual skylord, so much as the guts of one's drive system put into a new shell. much like the VF-1's booster, the result could be mounted on an erector transporter (say something like a MAZ-7310 SCUD launcher) and thus be semi-mobile.

[Arnie100]

I favor the FASTPacks over the Skylord launch. system. If you remove the missile launchers and use the boosters themselves as disposable boosters, you get more power-to-weight ratio, they're easier to fit, and you could conceiveably use the existing VF-1 launch tractors for tactical launches(ala the old 'zero length launch' schemes of the Cold War) into low orbit. If you WANT to have a little extra weight, add countermeasure launchers to obscure the heat and radar returns, shedding weight on the way up, and hopefully making it more difficult for enemy sensors in orbit to pick off your fighters as they ascend to engagement altitudes.

If the FASTPacks were used pirmarily for space, there shouldn't be a weight issue...

[The Artist Formerly]

I favor the FASTPacks over the Skylord launch. system. If you remove the missile launchers and use the boosters themselves as disposable boosters, you get more power-to-weight ratio, they're easier to fit, and you could conceiveably use the existing VF-1 launch tractors for tactical launches(ala the old 'zero length launch' schemes of the Cold War) into low orbit. If you WANT to have a little extra weight, add countermeasure launchers to obscure the heat and radar returns, shedding weight on the way up, and hopefully making it more difficult for enemy sensors in orbit to pick off your fighters as they ascend to engagement altitudes.

If the FASTPacks were used pirmarily for space, there shouldn't be a weight issue...

Yes and no. Weight to power for means of lift or thrust, you're right it's not an issue. Weight as it relates to momentum, that's an issue.

[Arnie100]

I favor the FASTPacks over the Skylord launch. system. If you remove the missile launchers and use the boosters themselves as disposable boosters, you get more power-to-weight ratio, they're easier to fit, and you could conceiveably use the existing VF-1 launch tractors for tactical launches(ala the old 'zero length launch' schemes of the Cold War) into low orbit. If you WANT to have a little extra weight, add countermeasure launchers to obscure the heat and radar returns, shedding weight on the way up, and hopefully making it more difficult for enemy sensors in orbit to pick off your fighters as they ascend to engagement altitudes.

If the FASTPacks were used pirmarily for space, there shouldn't be a weight issue...

Yes and no. Weight to power for means of lift or thrust, you're right it's not an issue. Weight as it relates to momentum, that's an issue.

Oh

[glitterboy2098]

if the extra mass of the fast packs is too much your flight performance is reduced because your thrust to weight ratio changes.

the VF-1 offset this by putting extra engines into the packs. though IMO the stated fuel boost in macross sources is probably overly optimistic.. the fighter probably uses most of the additional fuel carried just to offset the extra consumption of those two big engines that got added.

[abtex]

honestly i'd prefer the skylord type set up. FAST packs would add enough drag that i think they'd offset whatever gains you get in atmosphere, and i doubt they could pack enough fuel onto a logan to get it to orbit and still have remass enough to do anything.

whereas a Single stage rocket booster to get it up to orbit means that it can go up with a full fuel load. plus if you design the booster right, you could send it up with a full set of FAST packs as well, which makes it a force multiplier over all.

of course if you really want to be mean.. take one of those heavy lift boosters the UEDF used with their shuttles, dock a dozen Logans around it's sides, and launch a whole squadron at a time.

Skylord's a silo-launch job, though, I was thinking in terms of field deployments without the need for elaborate ground installations. Either you'd have to hoist the Logan upright over a silo'ed Skylord, or attach it in a horizontal state and lever the missile upright.
D'oh...or you could have the Logan simply walk over to the silo, and squat itself upright atop the missile....

I'm getting an image of some desperate Southern Cross pilot rigging up just such a kludge to get himself into orbit and to the evacuation fleets during the early days of the Invid Occupation.

How about a mix of Skylord and FAST packs (like glitterboy2098 said), then add an upgrade armor to the mix. FAST packs are part of Skylord body, that still lift Logan to orbit on some planets or for Long range missions. The packs are fixed, but added ones can be attached external.

Once the Skylord is in orbit, parts transform into armor and Shields as 'Upgrade' for Logan well as the FAST packs. Parts could also be added weapon(s) payload. Even melee weapons. Another form of upgrade, is the Skylord transforming around the fighter, as armor and holding the FAST packs on 'arms'. Armored and external armed Pumpkin with Logan as candle shooting thru 'Cutouts'.

being Halloween, a mixed fighting form of a witch on a broom comes to mind.
'Broom' - the Skylord as a heavy Anti Material Rifle
'Witch' - the Logan riding it, with Upgraded armor from Skyload, looking like it's wearing a cloak, add Wand FAST packs

[ShadowLogan]

@glitterboy2098
I don't have a problem per say with just extra fuel tanks, the problem is when we get into things that the RPG has not defined, like quantity and consumption rates. That is why I avoided the issue, since groups probably play with differing levels of detail in this regard and I wanted to make it plug-play w/n RAW.

I like the idea of the leg missile pods and the GPB-1S version. I have done both in the past, but when developing this for 2E I forgot about the leg launchers, and the GPB-1S version I was considering but never developed the idea fully.

@Alrik Vas
Lower Leg modules do have engines. the Forearm modules in fighter mode are mounted dorsally (top) on the Logan, in Battloid/Guardian mode they are on the "pinkie edge" of the forearm box (the wing/shield is on the "back-hand edge"). In 2E the Logan does have Chaff/Flares, as do all the other VFs (1E did not touch chaff/flare) as standard equipment.

The arms have four sides, one side holds the wing, the side opposite goes flush to the body. The other two sides are free and wide enough to mount hardware and are located dorsally and ventrally. IINM the ventral location on the arm is possibly where the Logan mounts its missiles.

If the FASTPacks were used pirmarily for space, there shouldn't be a weight issue...

Weight isn't an issue, but their mass does remain. So while you don't have 10.5tons of weight to push, you still have 10.5tons of mass you need to push. I picked the Alpha engines since they would be available, they also push around a unit that is heavier than the Logan w/the extras, so should have no problem here. I even used the size comparison chart from RT.com to help with determining if things would fit.

[The Artist Formerly]

Shadow, what in your mind makes the Logan so valuable to space combat? What's it bring to the fight that caught your eye if I might ask?

[Arnie100]

I would say very maneuverable and a difficult target to hit due to its small size.

[The Artist Formerly]

I would say very maneuverable and a difficult target to hit due to its small size.

Eh.... Okay. Not to rain on his parade, I just want to see what his line of thought was.

To my read, his (re)build is more a battleground design. It doesn't seem, to me that is, to excel at space combat, rather it does some of everything. That's not bad, and given some of the variance of space combat, could be a strength. But I wonder as to his thinking on the matter and what specific role it would have in space combat.

Under Palladium, the Logan is a crap fighter. Why is it a crap fighter? Because in the Southern Cross anime, almost of all of the characters were tank drivers. The one that wasn't was a girl and the female love interest of a guy with a terrible haircut. I think her fighter got shot down so he could jump his tank to catch her (I think, that was a long time ago, forgive me if I got it wrong). So the fighter's on screen time mostly consists of background stuff and getting blown up a lot. Same role the grey VF fighters and Destroids had in the Macross arc. Dramatic stuff happens to these machines to give the viewing audience context for how improbably awesome the story leads are.

His build addresses a bunch of those flaws and makes the unit more useful to game play. But...

[Alrik Vas]

I suggest waiting to hear his answer before the conjecture starts.

[glitterboy2098]

i had a thought on a post-invid upgrade resistance type could do to the logan..

the GR-80 minimissile launcher is a compact 3 tube launcher normally mounted to bikes or vehicles.

a Logan however has enough room on its legs to mount at least 2 per leg, and it can fit at least 2 above and behing the cockpit.

while it would be a hindrance to fighter mode operation (drag would make you a bit less agile, and you'd be limited on how fast you can go without them ripping off), such a system would give the Logan 18 minimissiles in battloid mode.

[The Artist Formerly]

I suggest waiting to hear his answer before the conjecture starts.

Indeed. Just wanted to explain myself. The Logan was written to be poor mecha the got ker-ploded in the back ground. Like a red shirt on Star Trek. Palladium wrote what they saw on screen. He's using a logical approach to his design, and I was hoping for more on the though processes that went into it.

I don't want this to seem like a "gotch!" from a fanboy. As gamers, we're building characters who would have been red shirts and then changing things to survive. Like that one red shirt guy who survived.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I suggest waiting to hear his answer before the conjecture starts.

Indeed. Just wanted to explain myself. The Logan was written to be poor mecha the got ker-ploded in the back ground. Like a red shirt on Star Trek. Palladium wrote what they saw on screen. He's using a logical approach to his design, and I was hoping for more on the though processes that went into it.

I don't want this to seem like a "gotch!" from a fanboy. As gamers, we're building characters who would have been red shirts and then changing things to survive. Like that one red shirt guy who survived.

I don't beleive Palladium wrote what they saw on screen for the Logan, as its performance on screen is much better than comparable mecha of the other 2 eras. it has the fewest on-screen red-shirt deaths (the VF-1 has the most), even with red-shirt pilots it is seen shrugging off multiple blasts from enemies and continuing to operate (verses VF-1 and Alpha red-shirts who die in less than 1 hit, sometimes randomly exploding), and its Guns is under-powered in the game system not being able to re-create the red-shirt performance we see on screen (by comparison the Gu-11 cannot take out a Female power armor when Max [a plot-character] empties the magazine into its back). If Palladium had written what was on screen I'd have few complaints about the game.

[The Artist Formerly]

I don't beleive Palladium wrote what they saw on screen for the Logan, as its performance on screen is much better than comparable mecha of the other 2 eras. it has the fewest on-screen red-shirt deaths (the VF-1 has the most), even with red-shirt pilots it is seen shrugging off multiple blasts from enemies and continuing to operate (verses VF-1 and Alpha red-shirts who die in less than 1 hit, sometimes randomly exploding), and its Guns is under-powered in the game system not being able to re-create the red-shirt performance we see on screen (by comparison the Gu-11 cannot take out a Female power armor when Max [a plot-character] empties the magazine into its back). If Palladium had written what was on screen I'd have few complaints about the game.

Well, it has been more then 20 years since I saw the SC arc (did just watch some of it on Youtube, in Spanish no less, not sure what happened but everyone sounded awesome and intense), the only thing I really remembered in relation to the fighter was Haircut catching Marie's logan, and even then I had to go to Robotech.com to get their names. And I'm not sure that happened in this Anime.

The characters of Marie and Nova exist as story elements to compare and contrast to Dana. One's hyper agressive career driven woman and the other is insane. Dana seemed more plausible as a character when these two give us context. The Logan fighter, the AJAX and the Battloids have the same role, to show off how great the VHT is. They are as much a plot device for story telling as they are anything else. This is the story of the 15th ATAC, they do business with Hover Tanks, and so we have a lot of time to explore how awesome the Hover Tank is. The point of everything else is to suck and lose (except that one red one, which needs to be challenging enough to sell the Dana/Zor rivalry). That's their role as a plot device. When ever you look at what you see on screen, you have to keep that in mind.

What I like about Shadow's work is he seems to be taking what worked for other period fighter-mecha and duct taped those attributes on the fighter the ASC has. I dig it.

[ShadowLogan]

Shadow, what in your mind makes the Logan so valuable to space combat? What's it bring to the fight that caught your eye if I might ask?

Valuable in space combat...

From a non-game mechanic perspective:

One, it has a lot of powerful thrusters. There are the two main engines on the back, then two in the legs (which alone can lift the mecha up rapidly to evade incoming fire), it has two over-sized thrusters on the shoulders (for it's size they are over-sized IMHO), it has 3 more in the under body (2 used in VTOL operation in space for fighter mode, 1 as a breaking thruster for robot mode on Earth per animation). From this perspective (propulsion) the Logan is designed as an all-in-one Alpha-Beta combo, since the Alpha battloid can benefit from the Beta's main engines for forward flight just like the Logan in robot mode can benefit from the main engines of its fighter mode unlike any other VF (the Beta does retain 1/3 power, the rest not so much).

Two, It's basic vehicle mode layout is identified as being a lifting body. Which I would agree with. Which really contributes to the Logan being intended more for space combat than down-low atmospheric work (extreme-high altitude work is another matter). The "wings" and "tail" are under-sized for atmospheric fighter work at "low" altitudes, but they would not impact mobility in space. It would also contribute toward it being a smaller target to hit. That smaller size (officially, for some reason 2E RPG got the size wrong in fighter mode), would also allow it to pitch/roll/yaw faster than the larger VFs (in 2E it is a lot closer in size to other VFs).

Three, energy weapons. For a missed shot it doesn't add to the "space junk" problem like a spent missile/bullet would that can create long term issues potentially. The use of energy weapons also cuts down on the logistics for the mother ship to support (more an issue for long-term operations than short-term). Contrary to what some want us to think officially, in the animation those weapons are shown to be more than adequate for dealing with Bioroids.

Fourth, tactically the Logan by all indications is designed to be an extreme "gun-fighter" first than a "missile-boat" (Alpha, Beta, VF-1 w/FAST) or something in between (VF-1, AGAC). I think that is something that can throw people, since it is in a leage of its own in this respect w/n RT's human Veritechs Fighters. This means that the Logan in combat is going to look very different than the other VFs. Experience in the 1st RW (based on animation on screen) with the VF-1, would seem to provide some justification for an extreme "gun-fighter" in the next generation of mecha to be explored as the vast majority of VF-1 kills are from its guns.

From a game mechanic perspectives:
1E is really where the Logan caught my eye. The low Main body was a negative factor, but overall if properly played it can be a potential terror that doesn't need to use missile spam thanks to the nose gun and its very high speed (Mach 4.8/4.0, not THE best, but no slouch either).

In 2E:
The Logan is made to be weak and under performing compared to what the animation shows, though it has a few bright points:

Auto-Dodge. The Logan has a naturally high ability even w/o the Special bonuses it gets from fly-by-wire, which make it even better. This requires the Logan to be "flying" (AGAC and VF-1 aren't any exception), which it would be in space unless it landed on the hull of a ship/shuttle.

Its guns, while not strictly relevant to space combat here (not to mention accurate portrayal IMHO) do not impact performance as much as the other VFs who see damage output drop by half (Beta exception, it gets a 5:6 ratio) and a loss of range of around 50% (which includes the Beta), where the Logan is in the 70% range in both damage and range when it has to switch to a secondary/weaker guns. It can also recharge its gunpod faster than the VHT (1hr vs 3hr for a full charge).

For its mass the Logan (1E or 2E) is very efficient about its MDC. You need to get into the odd-scaling items like the Cyclone/Silverbacks to really beat the Logan in this area for non-PB designs (1E's VF-1X edges out a head, so does the Super Logan)

To my read, his (re)build is more a battleground design.

It is intended to allow the Logan to have growth in terms of mission creep. It would also allow less flexible players to play a Logan closer to how they might play other Veritechs. It also creates some degree of series continuity given VF-1 had FAST PACKS, the Alpha has the Beta as a result of mission creep (AGAC wasn't around long enough). It would also address the "short comings" the 2E RPG wants to operate under w/o a complete re-write (which is needed IMHO).

Palladium wrote what they saw on screen

In no way did Palladium write something based on what they saw on screen in 2E (1E they seem a bit closer). Marie Crystal shows that both Logan guns are under powered by a factor of ~x3, they got the burst size wrong for BOTH guns. We saw a Logan pilot parry with his wing shield a burst from a Bioroid (1E portrayed this). On Screen the Logan suffers the fewest losses of any Veritech Fighter (Rick Hunter trashed more VF-1s than Marie). The Logan never engaged the Bioroid troop transports (Cityship yes, where its GUNS are more effective than the missiles the Sylphid fired). The Dimensions for fighter mode don't work. They missed the VTOL ability (which they had right in 1E). The only thing that even comes close is the agility (which should make regular dodge better not just auto-dodge variety, I would also consider the parry/roll bonus in this area).

The Logan fighter, the AJAX and the Battloids have the same role, to show off how great the VHT is

Having actually done some counting in this area in the animation, when you average things out to account for different episode counts or even just kill/loss. The VHT is out performed by the Logan, and the AGAC does even worse.

[Arnie100]

VF-8 Logan VTOL:

https://sites.google.com/site/thetemple ... &width=400

[The Artist Formerly]

Valuable in space combat...

From a non-game mechanic perspective:

One, it has a lot of powerful thrusters. There are the two main engines on the back, then two in the legs (which alone can lift the mecha up rapidly to evade incoming fire), it has two over-sized thrusters on the shoulders (for it's size they are over-sized IMHO), it has 3 more in the under body (2 used in VTOL operation in space for fighter mode, 1 as a breaking thruster for robot mode on Earth per animation). From this perspective (propulsion) the Logan is designed as an all-in-one Alpha-Beta combo, since the Alpha battloid can benefit from the Beta's main engines for forward flight just like the Logan in robot mode can benefit from the main engines of its fighter mode unlike any other VF (the Beta does retain 1/3 power, the rest not so much).

Two, It's basic vehicle mode layout is identified as being a lifting body. Which I would agree with. Which really contributes to the Logan being intended more for space combat than down-low atmospheric work (extreme-high altitude work is another matter). The "wings" and "tail" are under-sized for atmospheric fighter work at "low" altitudes, but they would not impact mobility in space. It would also contribute toward it being a smaller target to hit. That smaller size (officially, for some reason 2E RPG got the size wrong in fighter mode), would also allow it to pitch/roll/yaw faster than the larger VFs (in 2E it is a lot closer in size to other VFs).

Three, energy weapons. For a missed shot it doesn't add to the "space junk" problem like a spent missile/bullet would that can create long term issues potentially. The use of energy weapons also cuts down on the logistics for the mother ship to support (more an issue for long-term operations than short-term). Contrary to what some want us to think officially, in the animation those weapons are shown to be more than adequate for dealing with Bioroids.

Fourth, tactically the Logan by all indications is designed to be an extreme "gun-fighter" first than a "missile-boat" (Alpha, Beta, VF-1 w/FAST) or something in between (VF-1, AGAC). I think that is something that can throw people, since it is in a leage of its own in this respect w/n RT's human Veritechs Fighters. This means that the Logan in combat is going to look very different than the other VFs. Experience in the 1st RW (based on animation on screen) with the VF-1, would seem to provide some justification for an extreme "gun-fighter" in the next generation of mecha to be explored as the vast majority of VF-1 kills are from its guns.

From a game mechanic perspectives:
1E is really where the Logan caught my eye. The low Main body was a negative factor, but overall if properly played it can be a potential terror that doesn't need to use missile spam thanks to the nose gun and its very high speed (Mach 4.8/4.0, not THE best, but no slouch either).

In 2E:
The Logan is made to be weak and under performing compared to what the animation shows, though it has a few bright points:

Auto-Dodge. The Logan has a naturally high ability even w/o the Special bonuses it gets from fly-by-wire, which make it even better. This requires the Logan to be "flying" (AGAC and VF-1 aren't any exception), which it would be in space unless it landed on the hull of a ship/shuttle.

Its guns, while not strictly relevant to space combat here (not to mention accurate portrayal IMHO) do not impact performance as much as the other VFs who see damage output drop by half (Beta exception, it gets a 5:6 ratio) and a loss of range of around 50% (which includes the Beta), where the Logan is in the 70% range in both damage and range when it has to switch to a secondary/weaker guns. It can also recharge its gunpod faster than the VHT (1hr vs 3hr for a full charge).

For its mass the Logan (1E or 2E) is very efficient about its MDC. You need to get into the odd-scaling items like the Cyclone/Silverbacks to really beat the Logan in this area for non-PB designs (1E's VF-1X edges out a head, so does the Super Logan)


It is intended to allow the Logan to have growth in terms of mission creep. It would also allow less flexible players to play a Logan closer to how they might play other Veritechs. It also creates some degree of series continuity given VF-1 had FAST PACKS, the Alpha has the Beta as a result of mission creep (AGAC wasn't around long enough). It would also address the "short comings" the 2E RPG wants to operate under w/o a complete re-write (which is needed IMHO).


In no way did Palladium write something based on what they saw on screen in 2E (1E they seem a bit closer). Marie Crystal shows that both Logan guns are under powered by a factor of ~x3, they got the burst size wrong for BOTH guns. We saw a Logan pilot parry with his wing shield a burst from a Bioroid (1E portrayed this). On Screen the Logan suffers the fewest losses of any Veritech Fighter (Rick Hunter trashed more VF-1s than Marie). The Logan never engaged the Bioroid troop transports (Cityship yes, where its GUNS are more effective than the missiles the Sylphid fired). The Dimensions for fighter mode don't work. They missed the VTOL ability (which they had right in 1E). The only thing that even comes close is the agility (which should make regular dodge better not just auto-dodge variety, I would also consider the parry/roll bonus in this area).


Having actually done some counting in this area in the animation, when you average things out to account for different episode counts or even just kill/loss. The VHT is out performed by the Logan, and the AGAC does even worse.

That was a really thoughtful post. Thank you. It's been a while since I wore the Col. Taffy hat, but here's what I like.

The single biggest selling point to the ASC is that they already have the Logan in production, so a whole pack of engineering and spare parts logistic issues are already solved, and pilots are already trained on the basics, needing only forty or fifty hours of flight time to get certified. One step reduces two problems that adopting new aircraft cause. Good for logistics, thumbs up.

Flight system/wing system. It's explains several issues with the flight system and gives you (the author) coverage for some of your expansion. You even went so far as to calculate thrust to weight ratio. It's a good story telling technique. Thumbs up.

It's a gun bunny. That thing has a &*$# ton of new weapons. While you label your machine a space superiority fighter but it does more then that. It's a battleground unit. The advantage of the veritech is it's ability to shift from one role to another. This thing can mix it up in the air, in space, on the ground, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, on Luna, Mars and aboard ship. That's handy. I've always used the Veritech (from both a gaming perspective and as the GM) as a dragoon unit. Something that rides into combat and fights dismounted. Some of the extras seem a little over the top, but what the hell, your back ground story covers it. And no one ever complains about having too many weapons. Thumbs up.

The only real flaw I see, as with Wayne B.'s Super Logan from RotM, is that there is no reason to deploy the Ajax. It's inferior and more expensive. New development costs, new engineering, new training and certification for pilots and mechanics, new supply lines, new parts, new manufacturing tolerances. You're fighter's better.

[Alrik Vas]

And that's the issue with fan ideas. They're fun and can add a lot, but they generally mess with reasoning in series...well, wherever the established reasoning manages to make sense.

[The Artist Formerly]

And that's the issue with fan ideas. They're fun and can add a lot, but they generally mess with reasoning in series...well, wherever the established reasoning manages to make sense.

Hehe, but Shadow's position and thought process is better then the original writer's. More logical.

[Arnie100]

I wanna see a Col. Taffy essay on the use of the VF-8 Logan, hehe

[Alrik Vas]

I agree his thinking is highly involved. I just don't agree with a lot of it. Though we already had that discussion in another, now locked, thread.

[taalismn]

[The only real flaw I see, as with Wayne B.'s Super Logan from RotM, is that there is no reason to deploy the Ajax. It's inferior and more expensive. New development costs, new engineering, new training and certification for pilots and mechanics, new supply lines, new parts, new manufacturing tolerances. You're fighter's better.

Wonder how much politicking went into the Ajax then...Regional or corporate? Though one would LIKE to think that after a near-extinction event affecting mankind, that sort of behavior would go out the door. Then again, the loss of so much of Earth's R&D networks after the Rain of Death cost development programs dearly, and even the 'pressurization' of wartime conditions couldn't compensate for a greatly diminished talent pool. The 'braindrain' off-world couldn't have helped any either(and Leonard would be correct in his complaint that the Pioneer expedition and other offworld ventures were stripping Earth of both material, manpower, and talent).

I always though the Ajax was rather squirrely as a mecha, and I have yet to see any serious fanon attempt to do what's being done here for the Logan; improve and update it. Of course, the Second Robotech War and its aftermath left precious little time and resources to do that.

[The Artist Formerly]

I agree his thinking is highly involved. I just don't agree with a lot of it. Though we already had that discussion in another, now locked, thread.

So once Palladium published the super Logan in Return of the Masters (revised, first edition), I tossed the Ajax out. It became a prototype that never saw use. The S-logan was so much a better fighter and on it's face would have been so much cheaper, I couldn't come up with a good reason not to.

[Arnie100]

So once Palladium published the super Logan in Return of the Masters (revised, first edition), I tossed the Ajax out. It became a prototype that never saw use. The S-logan was so much a better fighter and on it's face would have been so much cheaper, I couldn't come up with a good reason not to.

The Super Logan was one of my favorite mecha out of that book, lol

[Alrik Vas]

I don't even remember it, though I vaguely recall going, "huh, well that was nice of them", when I saw it.

[The Artist Formerly]

Wonder how much politicking went into the Ajax then...Regional or corporate? Though one would LIKE to think that after a near-extinction event affecting mankind, that sort of behavior would go out the door. Then again, the loss of so much of Earth's R&D networks after the Rain of Death cost development programs dearly, and even the 'pressurization' of wartime conditions couldn't compensate for a greatly diminished talent pool. The 'braindrain' off-world couldn't have helped any either(and Leonard would be correct in his complaint that the Pioneer expedition and other offworld ventures were stripping Earth of both material, manpower, and talent).

I always though the Ajax was rather squirrely as a mecha, and I have yet to see any serious fanon attempt to do what's being done here for the Logan; improve and update it. Of course, the Second Robotech War and its aftermath left precious little time and resources to do that.

You're asking the wrong guy. During my Taffy's school of Armored Warfare threads, I railed on the Ajax as a white elephant. It's a failure in it's primary role, especially when compared to the Super VT from Macross. The math allowed for a lone S-VT to kill a 1st E bioroid carrier. Provided the VT pilot had unreasonably lucky roles on the dice. So a flight of them should have the mass to get it done and get clear before the Bioriods contained there in could respond in an organized fashion.

Plus you know, space helicopter.

[The Artist Formerly]

I wanna see a Col. Taffy essay on the use of the VF-8 Logan, hehe

That's another board war in the set up.

[Arnie100]

I wanna see a Col. Taffy essay on the use of the VF-8 Logan, hehe

That's another board war in the set up.

Lolol

[glitterboy2098]

I always though the Ajax was rather squirrely as a mecha, and I have yet to see any serious fanon attempt to do what's being done here for the Logan; improve and update it. Of course, the Second Robotech War and its aftermath left precious little time and resources to do that.

partly thats because the Ajax doesn't have a lot of flaws to overcome in the RPG.


i have done a little bit recently though.

i established the hardpoint options, going by weight..
1 LRM
rack of 3 MRM
MLOP of 4 MRM (meant to represent the Cluster missile pods we see in the show.. would be these with multi-warhead missiles)
MLOP of 15 SRM
1 medium bomb
2 light bomb

allow a 2nd gun pod to be carried

then i've started getting more interesting..
Auto Grenade launcher pod - basically a belt fed AGL-12 with a large supply of 25mm grenades. used for ground support.
Cargo Pod - armored container that can be hooked to a hardpoint. can carry up to 600lbs of cargo, though it's only got a 19 cubic foot of space inside. (enough room for a person and some gear, if you want to think of it that way.) useful for cargo drops.. and if your willing to risk it, personnel insertions.

[taalismn]

[quote="The Artist Formerly
You're asking the wrong guy. During my Taffy's school of Armored Warfare threads, I railed on the Ajax as a white elephant. It's a failure in it's primary role, especially when compared to the Super VT from Macross. The math allowed for a lone S-VT to kill a 1st E bioroid carrier. Provided the VT pilot had unreasonably lucky roles on the dice. So a flight of them should have the mass to get it done and get clear before the Bioriods contained there in could respond in an organized fashion.

Plus you know, space helicopter.

[/quote]


One then has to wonder what its specs were for in the original (pre-Robotech) series when it was still Glorie, and not Earth. Considering that the same schools of thought produced a tank with an open cockpit....The Human colonists might not have been expecting much in the way of trouble, at least in space, from anything that required more than a missile gunboat and a few escort fighters for most encounters(think original Palladium Mechanoids Trilogy and the paramilitary police/national guard protecting Gideon Colony).
Then again, the animators may not have thought that hard. "Let's see what we can come up with that nobody else has done yet! Hey, the Americans are messing around with 'X-wing' helicopters! Lets...make a mecha space helicopter!"

[taalismn]

[Cargo Pod - armored container that can be hooked to a hardpoint. can carry up to 600lbs of cargo, though it's only got a 19 cubic foot of space inside. (enough room for a person and some gear, if you want to think of it that way.) useful for cargo drops.. and if your willing to risk it, personnel insertions.

Interestingly enough, the AH-64 Apache's armaments hardpoints could be used for externally carrying personnel who climb partially inside the side sponsons (in case you have to extract somebody from the field and can't weight for a proper SAR chopper to arrive).
A bit easier and more comfortable with the Ajax, given their personal armor.

[ShadowLogan]

That thing has a &*$# ton of new weapons.

Yes and no, it would be more accurate to say it has a ton of new weapon options. Technically you don't have to use all the modules either if you don't like a given concept or option.

The only real flaw I see, as with Wayne B.'s Super Logan from RotM, is that there is no reason to deploy the Ajax. It's inferior and more expensive. New development costs, new engineering, new training and certification for pilots and mechanics, new supply lines, new parts, new manufacturing tolerances. You're fighter's better.

Politics is likely what killed the Logan as opposed to actual ability, the way I see it the ASC was trying to free up resources to bring in the AGAC by retiring the Logan early.

Wonder how much politicking went into the Ajax then...

I suspect a lot if the 2E RPG is any indication (pg85 right column 1st full paragraph) you have the TASC lobbing to be part of the TC program.

I always though the Ajax was rather squirrely as a mecha, and I have yet to see any serious fanon attempt to do what's being done here for the Logan; improve and update it. Of course, the Second Robotech War and its aftermath left precious little time and resources to do that.

I started an AGAC "development" essay a while back, got side tracked and haven't been able to pick back up on it. It wasn't quite like this in focus though (more like how we went from an X-1 to the H-10). To do something like this with the AGAC I think is going to be very difficult, much more so than the other Veritechs in the series due to the design and transformation approach (I thought that about the VHT w/re to this to and still managed to come up with something...).

That and I'm not sure the AGAC was in service long enough to be subject to mission creep/upgrades unless the UEEF uses the design. Anything on Earth is likely to be IMU variations, or "development" work that was done with the program.

allow a 2nd gun pod to be carried

The AGAC already has the option to carry a 2nd IWS-40 gunpod in the 2E RPG. It's noted in the fluff blurb for the weapon. Though the platform is woefully short-ranged with its guns.

[taalismn]

[The AGAC already has the option to carry a 2nd IWS-40 gunpod in the 2E RPG. It's noted in the fluff blurb for the weapon. Though the platform is woefully short-ranged with its guns.

Indeed. Range has always been a problem with the Logan's and the Ajax's weapons. You want to keep the bad guys as far from you as possible, and the Ajax couldn't rely on having enough missile spam to save itself. Then again, like many helicopters, it likely was expected to rely on nearby ground- or space-missile platforms(like the Corsair or a friendly Banshee destroyer) to afford it that sort of breathing room.

[ShadowLogan]

[The AGAC already has the option to carry a 2nd IWS-40 gunpod in the 2E RPG. It's noted in the fluff blurb for the weapon. Though the platform is woefully short-ranged with its guns.

Indeed. Range has always been a problem with the Logan's and the Ajax's weapons. You want to keep the bad guys as far from you as possible, and the Ajax couldn't rely on having enough missile spam to save itself. Then again, like many helicopters, it likely was expected to rely on nearby ground- or space-missile platforms(like the Corsair or a friendly Banshee destroyer) to afford it that sort of breathing room.

I do get the idea of wanting to stay as far away as possible, but in terms of gun range the Logan is on par/better than the Alpha-series or VF-1 for primary (gunpod) and secondary (nose/head/jet) guns. The Beta in fighter mode is on par with these 3 too, though its Battloid mode guns are out-ranged by the AGACs primary gun which is out ranged by its secondary gun.

[The Artist Formerly]

Yes and no, it would be more accurate to say it has a ton of new weapon options. Technically you don't have to use all the modules either if you don't like a given concept or option.

All right, a **** ton of guns, in potentia. A gun bunny is a gun bunny. Don't run from it, be proud. Combat isn't about a balanced approach and should never be a fair fight. WIN should be the only concern.

Politics is likely what killed the Logan as opposed to actual ability, the way I see it the ASC was trying to free up resources to bring in the AGAC by retiring the Logan early.

Eh... Say space helicopter out loud. Only a politician could get with that idea. Helicopters aren't aircraft, they are a collection of parts flying in lose formation. The idea of taking a machine as hideously complex as Veritech and adding another 3000 moving parts to it. The mechanical elements of maintenance for the flight crews alone should have killed the idea. Especially since it doesn't do anything that other mecha don't already do. And they do it better.

To expand on my "super logan" 1st E concept, I played like this, ASC high command was desperate for a super weapon. Some magic bullet to put down the masters' forces. So they rush built them, and the ones seen in on screen represent all that were built. Kind of like Jet planes were used by the Germans at the end of world war two, and to much the same out come.

[ShadowLogan]

Combat isn't about a balanced approach and should never be a fair fight. WIN should be the only concern.

I agree it shouldn't be a fair fight and you should be in it to win, but there will always be a need for balance among various factors in a design to avoid turning an over/under emphasis into a major liability.

Eh... Say space helicopter out loud.

If you want to get technical though the AGAC is never deployed as a "space helicopter", it is deployed just like any other Veritech Fighter in the animation using it's jet and battloid modes exclusively (though it might enter that 'a helicopter state' during transition between the two). According to the 2E RPG the TASC lobbied to be included in the TC program because they thought with a little bit of tweaking to the design they could get a "heavy" multi-role fighter to complement the Logan and it took political wrangling to make happen (which suggests the ASC might not have resources to develop two new Veritech Aircraft simultaneously unlike the UEEF)..