The Masters, what space combat units do they have?

[The Artist Formerly]

In arguing for or against the Ajax, I'm left wondering what do the Masters themselves have for space combat units beyond the bioroids and bioroid carrier.

[glitterboy2098]

officially? that's it for small craft.

Bioroids on sleds
Bioroid assault carrier

then their warships..
the landing ship
the "destroyer" (seen but not yet stated up)
the mothership

i would imagine that they never really had to worry about it much before earth.. usually they'd be able to send in a fleet of zentreadi (and all their pods, PA, and fighters) to clear the way, then the bioroids and masters warships would pacify anything that was left.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

i would imagine that they never really had to worry about it much before earth.. usually they'd be able to send in a fleet of zentreadi (and all their pods, PA, and fighters) to clear the way, then the bioroids and masters warships would pacify anything that was left.

Actually, you have that backwards. The Zentraedi were there to pacify any resistance.

[Seto Kaiba]

In arguing for or against the Ajax, I'm left wondering what do the Masters themselves have for space combat units beyond the bioroids and bioroid carrier.

Apart from the weapons mounted on their ships, the Bioroids and assault carriers are all they have.

It's kind of understandable that the Robotech Masters forces feel a little under-equipped for unrestricted space warfare in the official canon view... the Bioroids and their assault carriers weren't meant to be used as the Masters' primary military force. That's what they created the Zentradi were for. Depending on how you view certain aspects of the Masters Saga's depiction of the Tirolians, the forces the Masters were deploying in their war were somewhere between their equivalent of a coast guard and a citizen's militia.

[ShadowLogan]

officially? that's it for small craft.

Bioroids on sleds
Bioroid assault carrier

Maybe... maybe not.

In "Volunteers" we have what is likely an animation error, though it can certainly be used to justify giving the Masters a "fighter" reminescent of the the Bioroid Assulat Carrier as during the attack on Shuttle-1 as there are several shots in the first phase of the battle that show multiple BACs as being much smaller than they are in other episodes. Treating the AE in this way certainly would help to flesh out their TO&E.

Another possibility are those spiny-spheres used in testing the 3-act-as-1 control setup that eventually made its away into the Bioroid Invid Fighter. Probably a short-range craft.

It's kind of understandable that the Robotech Masters forces feel a little under-equipped for unrestricted space warfare in the official canon view... the Bioroids and their assault carriers weren't meant to be used as the Masters' primary military force. That's what they created the Zentradi were for. Depending on how you view certain aspects of the Masters Saga's depiction of the Tirolians, the forces the Masters were deploying in their war were somewhere between their equivalent of a coast guard and a citizen's militia.

The Zentreadi where not created to be the Masters' primary military force from the show, which establishes them to be the Empire's "police force".

Ep31 Gloval: ...just after discovering Robotechnology they decided to develop an intergalactic police force to protect themselves from any hostile lifeforms through protogenetic engineering a race of giants was created for the sole purpose of fighting to keep the peace

The Masters are to heavily armed and organized to be a coast guard, and "militia" wouldn't work as they have (or suggested to have a) "caste" society. That doesn't mean civilian milita isn't used toward the end of the war to help bolster their combat forces, but they do have "warrior" caste.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Zentreadi where not created to be the Masters' primary military force from the show, which establishes them to be the Empire's "police force".

*coughs diffidently*

Police, maybe, but not the kind you're thinking of.

The Masters are to heavily armed and organized to be a coast guard, and "militia" wouldn't work as they have (or suggested to have a) "caste" society. That doesn't mean civilian milita isn't used toward the end of the war to help bolster their combat forces, but they do have "warrior" caste.

Think in relative terms, my good chap.

The Masters' fleet looks heavily armed relative to the much less advanced and numerous UEDF/ASC space fleet, but what we ought to be comparing them to is the Zentradi. The Zentradi fleet is much more numerous, and their ships and mecha are a great deal more heavily armed than anything short of the Robotech Masters' motherships, which are said to be the most technologically-advanced ships in the setting (and are also the biggest, if we don't count Dolza's fortress).

What the Masters bring to the table looks pretty paltry compared to what the Zentradi brought... but then again, that's what we'd expect from the difference between a force that appears to be mostly for the defense of the Masters' self-propelled cities and the armada they built for the purpose of ending civilizations and securing their interstellar empire.

[The Artist Formerly]

So what do we need the Ajax for? Why was it pushed into production? The Corsair/Chimera isn't noticeably out classed by the boiroid and hover sled. And the Logan is a better bet. The Ajax must have been in development before the Masters got to earth, but why not sit on the design and focus on what's working?

[taalismn]

So what do we need the Ajax for? Why was it pushed into production? The Corsair/Chimera isn't noticeably out classed by the boiroid and hover sled. And the Logan is a better bet. The Ajax must have been in development before the Masters got to earth, but why not sit on the design and focus on what's working?

In-stream programs tend to have a momentum of their own...and the developers of the AJACS may have been able to persuade the high command procurement that they were just THAT close to final roll-out of an exemplary unit, and that any further tweaking could be accomplished battlefield-side.
For their part, ASC high command may have figured that it was better, since they presumably already had the production lines ready and it was better to have SOME mecha than NO mecha.
Smart? No. But the ASC wasn't in full possession of the facts about the Masters' capabilities(aside from the fact that the Masters were creaming them), so they couldn't select the 'perfect' configuration of units to fight them(the Soviets went to war with some pretty heinous warmachines against the Nazis, including a fighter that pilots claimed the designation of stood for 'guaranteed lacquered coffin'...until they could develop better types).

[The Artist Formerly]

So what do we need the Ajax for? Why was it pushed into production? The Corsair/Chimera isn't noticeably out classed by the boiroid and hover sled. And the Logan is a better bet. The Ajax must have been in development before the Masters got to earth, but why not sit on the design and focus on what's working?

In-stream programs tend to have a momentum of their own...and the developers of the AJACS may have been able to persuade the high command procurement that they were just THAT close to final roll-out of an exemplary unit, and that any further tweaking could be accomplished battlefield-side.
For their part, ASC high command may have figured that it was better, since they presumably already had the production lines ready and it was better to have SOME mecha than NO mecha.
Smart? No. But the ASC wasn't in full possession of the facts about the Masters' capabilities(aside from the fact that the Masters were creaming them), so they couldn't select the 'perfect' configuration of units to fight them(the Soviets went to war with some pretty heinous warmachines against the Nazis, including a fighter that pilots claimed the designation of stood for 'guaranteed lacquered coffin'...until they could develop better types).

Just not seeing that in terms of the Masters kicking ass.

[Seto Kaiba]

So what do we need the Ajax for? Why was it pushed into production? The Corsair/Chimera isn't noticeably out classed by the boiroid and hover sled. And the Logan is a better bet. The Ajax must have been in development before the Masters got to earth, but why not sit on the design and focus on what's working?

OSM-ly, the TASC-02-SCF Auroran was built to replace the Logan because the Logan wasn't really able to hack it against the Bioroids and Biovers the Zor Lords were throwing at the Southern Cross Army. Because the series got cut short, the Auroran didn't get much opportunity to showcase the advantages its creators intended it to have. It was intended to be a more balanced replacement for the TASC-01-SCF Logan, as the Logan's jet mode (Flying Cat) was less a viable combat aircraft than it was a way to move its robot form (Flying Walker) into the combat zone quickly and it wasn't very good in space in either mode.

The Auroran was built larger to carry more weaponry, and its three mode transformation was intended to let it function as a space dogfighter (Crusader mode), as a more reliable close air support unit for the surface forces (the unused Cross Fighter mode), and a more space-friendly robot mode (Cosmo Sniper) to help it keep up in zero-g fights with Bioroids.



Most of that is probably still applicable for Robotech.

[glitterboy2098]

to be honest i have a hard time seeing the zentreadi as 'police'.
their size and the size of their gear means they are going to be terrible at counter-insurgency, their one sided cultural programming means they can;t do hearts and minds work, and their force mix and tactical doctrines are much more geared for "shock and awe" offensive work. not to mention their orders to keep their hands off micronian planets. which for zentreadi, is pretty much all planets the masters will be interested in. (especially Tyrolian colonies in revolt, or near human aliens they want to conquer. and frankly, the non-human races liek the sentinels races would be a huge threat to the zents culturally, even if they aren't classified as 'micronian'..)

so perhaps police is a bad term. i think "enforce" would fit better. the Zentreadi are the hammer with which the Empire hits their foes, both foreign and domestic. then the Tyrolian forces move in to take over and rebuild/reestablish control. the smaller more mobile bioroids and the the PA troops of the tyrolian legionaries are much better suited to the "long war" of occupation and incorporation into the empire.

not unlike how the Roman empire operated at its height.. armies of auxiliaries and mercenaries (with legion support) to smash the 'barbarians', then the Roman legions themselves handled the pacification and incorporation of the region.. and if a region rebelled? the legions show up with those auxiliaries and mercs to smash the rebels, so the legions can reincorporate the rebel areas..

[neuronphaser]

to be honest i have a hard time seeing the zentreadi as 'police'.
their size and the size of their gear means they are going to be terrible at counter-insurgency, their one sided cultural programming means they can;t do hearts and minds work, and their force mix and tactical doctrines are much more geared for "shock and awe" offensive work. not to mention their orders to keep their hands off micronian planets. which for zentreadi, is pretty much all planets the masters will be interested in. (especially Tyrolian colonies in revolt, or near human aliens they want to conquer. and frankly, the non-human races liek the sentinels races would be a huge threat to the zents culturally, even if they aren't classified as 'micronian'..)

so perhaps police is a bad term. i think "enforce" would fit better. the Zentreadi are the hammer with which the Empire hits their foes, both foreign and domestic. then the Tyrolian forces move in to take over and rebuild/reestablish control. the smaller more mobile bioroids and the the PA troops of the tyrolian legionaries are much better suited to the "long war" of occupation and incorporation into the empire.

not unlike how the Roman empire operated at its height.. armies of auxiliaries and mercenaries (with legion support) to smash the 'barbarians', then the Roman legions themselves handled the pacification and incorporation of the region.. and if a region rebelled? the legions show up with those auxiliaries and mercs to smash the rebels, so the legions can reincorporate the rebel areas..

I'd agree with this. The Zentraedi might have "policed" the slaves of Tirol, other races, and/or Invid by keeping them at bay or in check, and always through force, at that. The Zents know of diplomacy, but don't appear to use it under any circumstances, really, that we see.

The Sentinels series (what's shown) suggests that the Robotech Masters brought their most capable combatants to Earth to fight...but keep in mind that this is after some extended amount of time fighting the Invid, likely on many fronts. It's entirely likely that the Masters that show up on Earth are powerful compared to Earth's remaining forces, but essentially just a shadow of what they once were.

Considering some of their tactics, the Masters aren't exactly the most brilliant tacticians, ever. If you add in Robotech: The Movie, that's even more evidence to suggest they relied on direct assault and shoring up any hole in that tactic by having a single agent (Andrews) deliver them some insider knowledge. A decent tactic, but hardly indicative of what anyone smart would do in a prolonged war with an alien race: you'd want to be doing a lot more recon and stuff like that. The Masters don't because they are no the brilliant generals and warriors of their race, but instead are just the leftovers.

[taalismn]

A Zentraedi 'police action' would be razing cities flat, and bombarding entire landscapes into wasteland. Unless you're sending a message to the NEXT planet that you're not going to tolerate dissidence, that's not a very good way to preserve assets and populations you want kept intact and productive.
Again, this may stem from early versions of the Masters' history that had the early Zentraedi used to quell Tirolian dissent to their taking power, but that would have been a few early heavy-handed incidents to test their loyalty programming, before they perfected the Zentraedi as soldiers, then isolated them on the frontiers, away from micronian worlds.

[eliakon]

A few well publicized examples of collective punishment can go a long way to stilling dissent.
I mean if everyone else on the planet is terrified that if you rebel they all die.....the locals will do all the suppressing for them.

[glitterboy2098]

A Zentraedi 'police action' would be razing cities flat, and bombarding entire landscapes into wasteland. Unless you're sending a message to the NEXT planet that you're not going to tolerate dissidence, that's not a very good way to preserve assets and populations you want kept intact and productive.

A few well publicized examples of collective punishment can go a long way to stilling dissent.
I mean if everyone else on the planet is terrified that if you rebel they all die.....the locals will do all the suppressing for them.

"another successful planetary liberation through the Base-Delta-Zero initiative" - Imperial Holonet, Star Wars Rebels.

[taalismn]

There's an old Chinese tale about a bunch of peasants sitting under a tree in the rainy season, flooded land around them and they're stuck looking at the mud.
One of them finally asks "What's the penalty for being late for the peasant levy?"
"Death."
"And what's the penalty for open rebellion?"
"Death."
"Guess what, guys, ...we're late."

Thing is, waste enough cities/planets, the rest of 'em may figure you've gone mad dog, or that your criteria for extermination is going to get too fine to parse or too expensive to bear....so they may as well go down fighting.

[glitterboy2098]

the impression i get in the RPG's material is that the Tyrolian colonies probably held a favored status in the empire and thus probably didn't have much reason to revolt, but they probably enjoyed that status by subjugating the non-tyrolian worlds and exploiting the heck out of them.

again, kinda mirrors the roman empire.. a subjugated people/region would basically be enslaved to produce the food and goods needed to support the Roman population. as the region wqas settled by romans, the locals would be gradually romanized.. and the border would get pushed back even further to create new subjugated regions as the old ones normalize into roman regions.

the Tyrolians probably would never accept non-tyrolians as equals (where romans would accept the subjected people once they sufficently 'romanized') but it may well be that a well behaved and 'civilized' (as defined by the tyrolians) non-human race could get at least 2nd class citizen status.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

So what do we need the Ajax for? Why was it pushed into production? The Corsair/Chimera isn't noticeably out classed by the bioroid and hover sled. And the Logan is a better bet.

Well, for one thing it carries an entirely different kind of ordnance in those missile pods than the Logan or Chimera can mount: cluster warhead munitions capable of taking out multiple enemies and light anti-warship, and even non-cluster anti-mecha. This allows the Ajax to engage successfully against the Bioroids with missiles that otherwise miss.

The Python missile carried by the Sylphide, Logan and Falcon can be useful for anti-ship long-range bombardment (Danger Zone, Star Dust), but has a poor record against mecha (Bioroids dodge them when the Falcons deploy in Metal Fire). The Python presumably has many different kinds of warheads, some of which are simply too light to hurt Tirolian ships (Southern Cross and Metal Fire). The Chimera's missiles are also good for long range attacks and carry something that should be heavy enough to punch holes in those ships (Prelude to Battle), but may or may not be good for anti-mecha (The Hunters is inconclusive).

As I said in the other thread, the Ajax is most certainly used in the direct boarding action of the Masters' city-ships (Mind Games, The Invid Connection).

The Ajax must have been in development before the Masters got to earth, but why not sit on the design and focus on what's working?

Because building the core of the First Offensive around the Ajax is ultimately what gave the UEF the eventual victory over The Masters.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Can we rename this to a topic about the ajax? I don't see much of any talk about the Master's space units... just more Ajax bashing...

[eliakon]

Can we rename this to a topic about the ajax? I don't see much of any talk about the Master's space units... just more Ajax bashing...

*ponders* Or maybe people could start a separate thread for Ajax stuff where it would be topical so as to not derail any conversation about the Master's space units that might occur in a thread about that very subject....

[Jefffar]

Since someone has to post on topic (possible moderator hint here) ...

The lack of a dedicated air/space superiority platform does seem rather odd in the Tirolean forces. In similar political structures on Earth, generally those forces closest to the leadership are expected to be the leadership's defense against possible rebellions within both the populace and the regular military. So logically, the Master's Forces must be prepared not only to deal with external threats like the Invid, but also with internal threats like the Zentraedi. This would require some means of dealing with large numbers of spaceborne mecha and aerospace fighters.

So, why don't we see these forces in the show?

One thought may be that the Masters, being so low on protoculture, didn't feel the need to commit their aerospace platforms, which likely have a pretty high power usage. They are generally dismissive of the human's capabilities, and if these craft were capable of dealing with large Invid and Zentraedi wave attacks, they may have been overkill against the smaller human forces. So using the aerospace platforms would have drastically cut into the masters protoculture supply with little tangible benefit.

Option two, the bioroids are capable aerospace defense platforms. At least one or more models of them may be equipped with the necessary tracking equipment to successfully engage high speed, agile aerospace craft in sizable numbers.

Option three, the Masters' ships are themselves capable of keeping air/space threats at bay.

Option four, the assault carrier is capable as an aerospace defense platform either in the standard configuration, or in an alternate configuration that we can't recognize as it looks identical.

Personally, I'm a fan of the idea that the Assault Carrier had multiple varients, including some which functioned as a form of fleet defense craft. Just fast enough, and armed with a large supply of missiles and sophisticated tracking systems, they could probably protect a large area from enemy fighters. Basically imagine an AWACS armed with dozens or even hundreds of missiles. It wouldn't need to dogfight the enemy, it'd just target them all with its superior radar at maximum range and unleash massive missile volleys.

Whatever it is, the Masters seem to have little difficulty in dealing with aerospace fighters and mecha that don't have plot immunity in the show.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I would point out there is what could very well be a "fighter" version of the Bioroid Assault Ship that is seen in the lineart. It may (or may not) also be the ships we see the Sylphide's destroy in the original opening/Sentinels opening....

[Colonel Wolfe]

One thought may be that the Masters, being so low on protoculture, didn't feel the need to commit their aerospace platforms, which likely have a pretty high power usage. They are generally dismissive of the human's capabilities, and if these craft were capable of dealing with large Invid and Zentraedi wave attacks, they may have been overkill against the smaller human forces. So using the aerospace platforms would have drastically cut into the masters protoculture supply with little tangible benefit.

Option two, the bioroids are capable aerospace defense platforms. At least one or more models of them may be equipped with the necessary tracking equipment to successfully engage high speed, agile aerospace craft in sizable numbers.

2 more than 1... the Bioroids look to preform adequately in space with or wihtout their Hover-sled. But I could easily see them having other forces they don't deploy as they are extremely dismissive of the humans capability... Giving them Ultimatums up til the last moment...

Option three, the Masters' ships are themselves capable of keeping air/space threats at bay.

Option four, the assault carrier is capable as an aerospace defense platform either in the standard configuration, or in an alternate configuration that we can't recognize as it looks identical.

The Assault-Corvettes are severally gimped in the RPG, lacking their Bombardment ability that is used to flatten a city. Each of the larger crafts used by the Master's have a similar Fusion-beam attack that is used to decimate cities...

Whatever it is, the Masters seem to have little difficulty in dealing with aerospace fighters and mecha that don't have plot immunity in the show.

Plot Immunity... if this immunity was applied properly most mecha in the show would be fun to play, sadly some mecha get written with red-shirt only stats.

[eliakon]

Whatever it is, the Masters seem to have little difficulty in dealing with aerospace fighters and mecha that don't have plot immunity in the show.

Plot Immunity... if this immunity was applied properly most mecha in the show would be fun to play, sadly some mecha get written with red-shirt only stats.

Since pretty much every mecha show ever written uses plot armor (Unless J.R.R. Martin has started writing anime with out me knowing) its not really worth even commenting on IMHO.
MC's gonna get plot armor and mooks are there to show how dangerous the situation is/good their destroyer is.

[Lorindor]

In the entry for the Tirolian Mothership in the old Robotech.com Mecha Database it says it can carry "approx. 300 air defense drones". What these drones are can be argued. It could be a left-over from The Movie where the Masters had something that could fit the description. It could be connected somehow to the Triumviroids we see in one episode. Or it could be something else that is so far unseen. Still, there's mention that the Masters have something other than Bioroids and assault ships in canon sources.

[ShadowLogan]

The Masters' fleet looks heavily armed relative to the much less advanced and numerous UEDF/ASC space fleet, but what we ought to be comparing them to is the Zentradi. The Zentradi fleet is much more numerous, and their ships and mecha are a great deal more heavily armed than anything short of the Robotech Masters' motherships, which are said to be the most technologically-advanced ships in the setting (and are also the biggest, if we don't count Dolza's fortress).

In Ep37 during the Robotech Masters Breifing for the attack we have statements:
-"Every Bioroid operator Master is briefed and prepared to execute the first phase exactly as you outlined it the only problem is in keeping our operators functional without adequate protoculture", reply to this statement is "Then double the number of bioroids assigned to this action you may draw additional protoculture from the Proto Furnace only if needed to ensure success"
-"Our need for additional protoculture is critical"
-"Masters this is all the Protoculture we have left and it is barely enough to proceed as planned"

This makes it quite clear that the Masters are not exactly at their best when they deal with the UEDF:ASC and are operating on a fine line.

The UEDF:ASC though makes statements about being ready to deal with the Zentreadi. The Tri-star Vessel entry on RT.com Infopedia states:
-"the Tristar would have easily held its own against the far larger vessels of the alien giants. "
-"However, the enemy it encountered were the Robotech Masters, whose vastly superior technology meant that the Tristar could often only barely hold its own in combat."

That right there shows that A. the ASC has equipment to fight the Zentreadi on par (minimum) and B. the Masters out-class the Zentreadi even in the depleted state they are in

And according to Excedore the Zentreadi do have worlds they are not supposed to have any contact with, which really restricts when/where they can be deployed against known races in RT as most of them (at the time) qualify to differing levels as "micronian". We don't have enough information on the DoZ or "Space Pirates". So it is real questionable who the Zentreadi can actually fight other than the Invid and Haydonites.

So what do we need the Ajax for? Why was it pushed into production? The Corsair/Chimera isn't noticeably out classed by the boiroid and hover sled. And the Logan is a better bet.

By all indications w/n RT the AGAC was already on the way in at the start of the 2RW (Ep37, 20+ identifiable units), so it would not pay to "sit on the design". It is also possible that from a numbers standpoint, what was working wasn't available in numbers to meet the ASC requirements. And if those production lines had already been closed, and the AGAC was gearing up it would make more sense to switch to the AGAC than revive a closed production line (plenty of vehicles stay in use even after production has stopped).

The Corsair/Chimera though would not be engaging the Bioroid/Hoversled, they would first have to deal with the Bioroid Assault Carrier that simply out classes them. The BAC, based on the animation, should form a core part of the Masters aerospace force acting as the "tip of the spear" (or to "drop the hammer") before the Bioroids are deployed.

The Logan is actually not a better bet. The AGAC is faster, and it packs more first strike missile capacity (which can soften up approaching forces). The AGAC also has more theoretical room for growth than the Logan due to its larger size. The Logan is arguably designed with an over emphasis on gunfighting compared to other VFs, where the AGAC is more a multi-role fighter like the (stock) VF-1 and Beta (in 2E/animation) that doesn't natively place an over emphasis on any one style of fighting (Alpha places an emphasis on missiles, Beta in 1E qualifies here to).

[Seto Kaiba]

(Unless J.R.R. Martin has started writing anime with out me knowing)

So... Yoshiyuki Tomino, then?

In Ep37 during the Robotech Masters Breifing for the attack we have statements: [...]

That establishes that they were having problems keeping their pilots under control, not that their military hardware was operating at less than peak efficiency. (See Ep55 "Dana in Wonderland".)

This makes it quite clear that the Masters are not exactly at their best when they deal with the UEDF:ASC and are operating on a fine line.

Their soldiers, certainly, but it doesn't address why the Masters' Bioroids are so poorly equipped to fight an actual war.

Now, if one examines the Masters Saga without an anti-canon or anti-OSM bias, it's actually fairly easy to see WHY the Masters fall so far short of being the unstoppable force certain fan theories want them to be. Their civilization is so thoroughly regimented and oriented around the welfare of the group rather than the individual that the very notion of conflict is abhorrent to them. The series repeatedly presents us with the Masters' reactions to conflict being somewhere between distaste, academic fascination, and a mild bewilderment when the conflict doesn't serve any obvious purpose. These aren't conquerors, these are scientists whose solution to disruptive elements in their plans is to expediently remove the disruptive element.

The Masters aren't equipped to fight a war themselves because they outsourced fighting to the Zentradi ages ago and never looked back. Their Bioroids don't even have weapons unless they're carrying a gun pod or riding a Biover... and there's the suggestion the Bioroids aren't even directly controlled by the pilot a lot of the time. We've seen what they expect a frontline soldier will need, via the Zentradi, and the Bioroid clearly doesn't measure up to those expectations. Their weapons and doctrines are organized around self-defense and the preservation of order. They do as well as they do because they massively outnumber the ASC defenses, their numerical advantage covers the deficiencies elsewhere in their force organization.

That right there shows that A. the ASC has equipment to fight the Zentreadi on par (minimum) and B. the Masters out-class the Zentreadi even in the depleted state they are in

Premise A is false, you're attempting to generalize a statement specific to the Tristar-class to the entire ASC.
Premise B is also false, as you're assuming superior technological sophistication directly equates to greater firepower rather than superior defensive ability, greater precision, etc., which are demonstrated in the show.

All that is literally said is that the Tristar-class would have been a match for Zentradi ship classes in a one-on-one fight, but it had difficulty holding its own against the superior technology of the Robotech Masters.

[Colonel Wolfe]

That right there shows that A. the ASC has equipment to fight the Zentreadi on par (minimum) and B. the Masters out-class the Zentreadi even in the depleted state they are in

Exactly, the problem is looking at the Bioroids as weak or underarmed.
if one goes by the Canon OSM of the footage and takes the Canon dialog, its easy to dismiss these fan theories that the masters are the weakest force in the series.
The Bioroids don't need heavy arms, because they work in conjuncture with the Assault Corvette and Hover-sled. The RAC offers air-defense, bombardment capability and mounts capital-level energy weapons. The Master's fight a refined method of warfare that relies on speed, stealth and brutality to accomplish their goals. Even when outnumbred by the forces of Earth and running out of energy they still fight the combined might of the RDF and REF to a standstill.
The Master's ships are much more heavily armed and armored than the Zent's ships. They designed the Zents to be strong enough to control and intimidate weaker colonies, but not to be able to stand up to their superior technology. this is evident by the fact the SDF-1 is able to do so well against the Zents once the gloves were off. The Master's even know that the lone SDF-1 could have taken out 5 million Zent ships on its own if used properly.

[ShadowLogan]

That establishes that they were having problems keeping their pilots under control, not that their military hardware was operating at less than peak efficiency. (See Ep55 "Dana in Wonderland".)

Actually since the Bioroids act as an extension of the pilot, their efficiency would be directly tied to the pilot's.

Their soldiers, certainly, but it doesn't address why the Masters' Bioroids are so poorly equipped to fight an actual war.

But have we seen the full extent of the options they can employ? Do Bioroids have alternate weapons to choose from that were not used against Earth (for whatever reason)? Have we seen the full extent of their arsenal? What about their doctrine when they actually do engage in battle? I think their doctrine is an important consideration, because it determines how they fight (so it might look weak from a given doctrine approach, but may be far from weak in actual execution).

Their Bioroids don't even have weapons unless they're carrying a gun pod or riding a Biover.

I'm not sure that it is a negative per say though. It means the Bioroid is much easier to tailor to a specific role/mission. We also have to remember how the Bioroid pilot controls their mecha, so "hand-held" device operation would seem to be an extension of that technology (I know the UEEF BI doesn't follow this, but the BI does have physical controls in addition to the standard nervous system based unit).

Note: 2E RPG does give (at least some Models of) Bioroids a built-in weapons, though that is in their universe canon.

All that is literally said is that the Tristar-class would have been a match for Zentradi ship classes in a one-on-one fight, but it had difficulty holding its own against the superior technology of the Robotech Masters.

I agree that is what is literally said, but that also has implications. It is unlikely that the only item in the ASC inventory to tackle Zentreadi is the Tri-star afterall. Nor does it change the fact that the Masters by extension out-class the Zentreadi in technology.

[Alrik Vas]

That right there shows that A. the ASC has equipment to fight the Zentreadi on par (minimum) and B. the Masters out-class the Zentreadi even in the depleted state they are in

Exactly, the problem is looking at the Bioroids as weak or underarmed.
if one goes by the Canon OSM of the footage and takes the Canon dialog, its easy to dismiss these fan theories that the masters are the weakest force in the series.
The Bioroids don't need heavy arms, because they work in conjuncture with the Assault Corvette and Hover-sled. The RAC offers air-defense, bombardment capability and mounts capital-level energy weapons. The Master's fight a refined method of warfare that relies on speed, stealth and brutality to accomplish their goals. Even when outnumbred by the forces of Earth and running out of energy they still fight the combined might of the RDF and REF to a standstill.
The Master's ships are much more heavily armed and armored than the Zent's ships. They designed the Zents to be strong enough to control and intimidate weaker colonies, but not to be able to stand up to their superior technology. this is evident by the fact the SDF-1 is able to do so well against the Zents once the gloves were off. The Master's even know that the lone SDF-1 could have taken out 5 million Zent ships on its own if used properly.

What are these capital-level energy weapons the BAC mounts?
Master's ships are, 1 for 1, more heavily armed and armored. They are also much bigger. What they could not do, or even have a prayer of doing, is defeating the Zentradi in a battle. The technology the Zentradi couldn't overcome is technology in general. They don't know how to fix their own gear. Their war machine would fall apart without the masters, that's why the masters are superior.

[Colonel Wolfe]

What are these capital-level energy weapons the BAC mounts?

the ones they use against the tri-star and other capital ships in the series, as well as use to destroy entire cities, only the Zent-Canon ships mount weapons that powerful.

Master's ships are, 1 for 1, more heavily armed and armored. They are also much bigger. What they could not do, or even have a prayer of doing, is defeating the Zentradi in a battle.

The Series says this statement is false, The master's are positive the SDF-1 could defeat the Zentradi Armada on its own. the SDF-1 is a Robotech Master's ship..

The technology the Zentradi couldn't overcome is technology in general. They don't know how to fix their own gear.

again, the show proves this wrong, as the Khyron's crashed cannon-ship is repaired/restored on the ground before they steal a protoculture matrix to repower it with.

[Alrik Vas]

Where are the RPG stats for these weapons mounted on the BAC?

The masters respond with incredulity when they realize the SDF-1 took on the fleet. And according to Robotech, it had a million allied ships to help, after the grand cannon took out a healthy chunk of dolza's armada.

Khyron and his men fix the gunboat after they had been on earth and had time to learn about how to fix things.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Where are the RPG stats for these weapons mounted on the BAC?

Like a most of problems in the Master's book, its is not stated because the writer didn't watch the episodes (this is a problem with each and every book published to date TBH), I just Sub the stats for the Heavy Particle beam gun off the mothership for speed sake. If you watch the episode where Newton is destroyed, the attack creates a Massive mushroom cloud and decimates the city... one of the escort ships uses a similar attack to destroy Monument City.

The masters respond with incredulity when they realize the SDF-1 took on the fleet. And according to Robotech, it had a million allied ships to help, after the grand cannon took out a healthy chunk of dolza's armada.

The Master's don't know they had a Million ships backing them up, that's viewer knowledge. The Masters are assuming the DoZ have captured the ship, and were able to use its superior technology to defeat Dolza's armada on its own... they remark to do this the Doz would have to have an understanding of Robotechnology like their own.

[Alrik Vas]

The entire thing is bunk, though. Humans made the omni-barrier, yet the masters talk about it like it was part of the original design.

And so, with these capital ship weapons, that have no stats, couldn't just be how mega-damage weapons obliterate conventional structures?

I mean, sub in whatever you want, but the game designers probably omitted it for a good reason. Likely the show was just making sure we know the bad guys are scary.

[Jefffar]

The entire thing is bunk, though. Humans made the omni-barrier, yet the masters talk about it like it was part of the original design.

And so, with these capital ship weapons, that have no stats, couldn't just be how mega-damage weapons obliterate conventional structures?

I mean, sub in whatever you want, but the game designers probably omitted it for a good reason. Likely the show was just making sure we know the bad guys are scary.

Well at the time it was planned that a spaceships book with variants of craft portrayed in the RPG already in addition to craft that had yet to see print would be published. It is possible that the craft in question was planned for this unreleased book.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The entire thing is bunk, though. Humans made the omni-barrier, yet the masters talk about it like it was part of the original design.

Lang claims he made it, but most likely just figured out how to use a pre-existing system. this is supported by the opening dialog of episode one, which says most of the damage to the ship was superficial, and the internal systems were mostly undamaged... The Master's knew about the system because its a system they use, and one they knew was on the SDF-1.

And so, with these capital ship weapons, that have no stats, couldn't just be how mega-damage weapons obliterate conventional structures?

Being MD and SDC are all game-meta devices, its not know what we should say these building are made of... being the Mush-room cloud and several hundred meters of blast radius... I doubt is dealing ten's of MD like the RPG says.

I mean, sub in whatever you want, but the game designers probably omitted it for a good reason. Likely the show was just making sure we know the bad guys are scary.

I've seen the writing on the wall with the middle chapter though, its "Game Design" when they gimp the middle chapter equipment, making it impossible to enact a uniform performance with the source.

EDIT: It's one thing to say the stats are incorrect or incomplete, it's another to imply this was purposefully done. Unless you can prove an intent, I'd advise you to stay away from maing this implication in the future - Jefffar

Edit: In Invid Connection the Cities of Newton and Manville both get obliterated by the Masters. RAC charges 4 blasters, the blasts converge and the resulting mushroom-cloud, the next seen the guy says both cities were destroyed by an "Electromagnetic Fission beam that rips apart atomic structures... "

[Alrik Vas]

So they need a variant of the BAC with a heavy weapon. I disagree with how heavy, but your idea works for you.

As far as your response to the SDF-1's barrier, you're inserting your own ideas. That's fine supposition, but it isn't a good argument.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

So they need a variant of the BAC with a heavy weapon. I disagree with how heavy, but your idea works for you.

Is this some kind of a joke? What more evidence do you need?

As far as your response to the SDF-1's barrier, you're inserting your own ideas. That's fine supposition, but it isn't a good argument.

Except we SEE the grounded city-ship in Prelude to Battle deploy an Omni-Directional Barrier.

[Colonel Wolfe]

So they need a variant of the BAC with a heavy weapon. I disagree with how heavy, but your idea works for you.

where is your proof to support the idea that its a variant? the RPG isn't a source for canon, the show is. The RPG is wrong, the show can't be wrong. I supplied screen shot from the actual show, and dialog... is it so terrible that the Creators of the Zentradi might have better and stronger weapons...

As far as your response to the SDF-1's barrier, you're inserting your own ideas. That's fine supposition, but it isn't a good argument.

except its impossible for the Master's to know exactly what system is onboard the ship unless it was on the ship when it was in their possession. This discounts the Idea Lang built the system from scratch. Lang may even believe he built the system, but The SDF-1 has been missing for Generations and the Master's should have no knowledge of systems that are wholly human built.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Funny, but the Invid's Proto-Plex Barrier sure looks and acts an awful lot like the SDF-01's Omni-Directional Barrier too. I guess they somehow managed to kidnap Doc Lang and force him to share his "discovery".....

[Colonel Wolfe]

Funny, but the Invid's Proto-Plex Barrier sure looks and acts an awful lot like the SDF-01's Omni-Directional Barrier too. I guess they somehow managed to kidnap Doc Lang and force him to share his "discovery".....

Most likely that how the Master's knew of its existence as well.. They were in another galaxy at the time, but they prolly had a confrence call with him, or checked his facebook updates.
----------------------
Dr-Lang: Invented a omni-directional barrier today!
The-Robotech-Master + 10 other like this!
-----------------------

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, it is impossible to know. They didn't. The writers screwed up, and whatever is in the comic you mentioned was damage control that happened 20 years too late.

That's just the way I see it. Though I suppose if that really is an omni-barrier, then that's canon. If. As in the show, the masters had something else protecting their vessels that also kept them flying, which taking that out is what made one fall out of the sky.

Though I admit I haven't watched the series in over a year.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually since the Bioroids act as an extension of the pilot, their efficiency would be directly tied to the pilot's.

I'm not seeing anything in there to indicate that the pilot's mental stability has any impact on the Bioroid's offensive or defensive capabilities.

(Indeed, since aggression is identified as a symptom of that kind of mental instability in "Dana in Wonderland", that should make them MORE effective rather than less.)

But have we seen the full extent of the options they can employ? Do Bioroids have alternate weapons to choose from that were not used against Earth (for whatever reason)? Have we seen the full extent of their arsenal? What about their doctrine when they actually do engage in battle? I think their doctrine is an important consideration, because it determines how they fight (so it might look weak from a given doctrine approach, but may be far from weak in actual execution).

Sorry, but there's nothing in the series that indicates that the Masters are deliberately holding back during their war with the ASC.

They mention, long after the conflict has begun, that the continued use of their weapons is draining their energy reserves at a very fast rate... but they never mention that they're going into this with kid gloves on.

I'm not sure that it is a negative per say though. It means the Bioroid is much easier to tailor to a specific role/mission. We also have to remember how the Bioroid pilot controls their mecha, so "hand-held" device operation would seem to be an extension of that technology (I know the UEEF BI doesn't follow this, but the BI does have physical controls in addition to the standard nervous system based unit).

That seems like supposition without evidence... we have never seen a Bioroid tailored for any mission other than "infantry", and in practice they only have one free hand if they're also using a Biover, which means their armament choices are rather limited. The theory is sound, but there's no practical evidence to back it up.

I agree that is what is literally said, but that also has implications. It is unlikely that the only item in the ASC inventory to tackle Zentreadi is the Tri-star afterall. Nor does it change the fact that the Masters by extension out-class the Zentreadi in technology.

The implications are rather limited by the Tristar-class's age... it's supposedly one of the newest ships of the line in canon, while most of the ASC's equipment is from the period shortly before the UEEF left.

Even if we assume without evidence that the ASC's equipment is sufficiently powerful to tackle the Zentradi in a one-on-one fight... that still leaves the problem of numbers. The canon ASC would've been even more massively outnumbered by the Zentradi or the Robotech Masters than the RPG's ASC.

Likewise, the implication with respect to the Masters' level of capability is that their ships would outclass the Zentradi in a one-on-one fight... but the Masters came with hundreds of ships, the Zentradi with millions. We're talking differences of scale here.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Yeah, it is impossible to know. They didn't. The writers screwed up, and whatever is in the comic you mentioned was damage control that happened 20 years too late.

no one's mentioned a Comic... "Prelude to Battle" is Episidoe # 43.

Though I admit I haven't watched the series in over a year.

I usually watch and episode Right before I discuss an aspect of it...

[glitterboy2098]

personally i've interprited that series of statments from the episodes as thus:

the SDF-1 originally was equipped with a version of the Shield systems the master's motherships as seen using. but when it crashed on earth the system was not one that humanity had managed to reactivate/fully rebuild by the time the zentreadi had arrived.

When the fold engines vanished, they clearly left some sort of spatial anomaly in their place. (it's remarked on in the show) this anomaly is what Lang says he may be able to use to make the defensive system.

what i think happened is that Lang then figured out a way to harness whatever special property of the spatial anomaly he saw as useful, and then hooked that into the master's technology shielding grid to create the pinpoint barrier, and then later modified that further to expand the coverage to the omni-directional barrier.

effectively, mcguyvering the system the master's knew zor's fortress had into a related but different form.

[Colonel Wolfe]

personally i've interprited that series of statments from the episodes as thus:

the SDF-1 originally was equipped with a version of the Shield systems the master's motherships as seen using. but when it crashed on earth the system was not one that humanity had managed to reactivate/fully rebuild by the time the zentreadi had arrived.

When the fold engines vanished, they clearly left some sort of spatial anomaly in their place. (it's remarked on in the show) this anomaly is what Lang says he may be able to use to make the defensive system.

what i think happened is that Lang then figured out a way to harness whatever special property of the spatial anomaly he saw as useful, and then hooked that into the master's technology shielding grid to create the pinpoint barrier, and then later modified that further to expand the coverage to the omni-directional barrier.

effectively, mcguyvering the system the master's knew zor's fortress had into a related but different form.

I could see this... The spatial anomaly may be responsible for the Barrier Inversion that the Master's think could destroy the fleet.

[glitterboy2098]

actually they seem to think that's a deliberate feature so i'd guess that the master's own shield systems have a similar "generate a massive energy pulse" effect going on. presumbly they lacked the power to use it when they got to earth. (but since zor's ship had the protoculture factory it would never be on low power)

if i had to guess, Lang's barrier systems were an outgrowth of the fold drive work humanity had done.

bear with me. we see the master's shields seem to be brought down by taking too much fire. (one reason they seem to have "segmented them, so one section can fall while the rest stay up, and a new one can be brought up). they seem to absorb energy. too much and they collapse.

what i suspect is that the anomaly was some sort of hyperspace thing, a place where the extra fundamental dimensions of the universe were easier to access. and that what Lang did was figure out a way to modify the master's designed shield system to somehow "vent" the energy that hit it into the anomaly in order to keep the shields from collapsing under fire. basically using the anomaly as a radiator of sorts to excess dump energy from the shields into hyperspace.

the pin point system being an early version which could only vent so much energy at a time, so he limited the size and thus how much energy it could absorb. the Omnidirectional barrier being a more refined version able to vent more energy into the anomaly. then the zents overload the system's ability to vent.. and the inversion capability gets triggered by the tyrolian hardware to prevent the absorbed energy from slagging the shield hardware.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm not seeing anything in there to indicate that the pilot's mental stability has any impact on the Bioroid's offensive or defensive capabilities.

(Indeed, since aggression is identified as a symptom of that kind of mental instability in "Dana in Wonderland", that should make them MORE effective rather than less.)

If the pilot is not operating at 100% mental stability, the pilot themself will have an impact on the Bioroid's overall capabilities, just like driving impaired or distracted.

And the mental intability as I recall in "Dana in Wonderland" I really would not characterize as "aggressive" considering most of them are "Zombie" like as they pretty much just stood there like statues with very little movement, even Latell makes the "mental instability" out to be more a case of "free thought" and than mindless aggression.

Sorry, but there's nothing in the series that indicates that the Masters are deliberately holding back during their war with the ASC.

They mention, long after the conflict has begun, that the continued use of their weapons is draining their energy reserves at a very fast rate... but they never mention that they're going into this with kid gloves on.

Not Deliberately holding back? The Masters are fighting a war with "kid gloves" on as they are in an energy crunch would limit what they can do:
-they did not use their Reflex cannon on the Mothership they have per the Infopedia/RPG after all
-The Masters also did not want the Elders to join them (ep37)
-They could have simply nuked Monument City (early on), or the Aerospace Base (in Ep39), etc as they did to Newton and Manville instead of deploying Bioroids
-They could have simply started landing Cityships on the ground on top of ASC facilities or Civilian Communities crushing them with simple shear bullk
-With all their Genetic engineering technology, they didn't think to use Biological (and/or Chemical) weapons Earth would not be able to defend themselves from
-Use their Stealth Technology to its fullest extent since they could land a major vessel on the surface undetected (Ep40) or to catch the ASC off guard (Ep42)
-Or combine various technologies they are known to have to "convert" high ranking UEG and ASC officials
-Or attack the ASC fleets on the ground before they got into space
-Employ the Bioroid Assault Carriers more fully to support Bioroid troops more often

But it is possible that the task force the Masters brought with them does not represent their entire inventory (Elders, stuff on Tirol, their "late model recon. vessel" seen in Viva Miryia, etc). It is also possible that the Masters have hardware we have not seen that is not deployed as it is not conductive to their approach to battle (which appears geared toward "raiding" than "holding ground").

That seems like supposition without evidence... we have never seen a Bioroid tailored for any mission other than "infantry", and in practice they only have one free hand if they're also using a Biover, which means their armament choices are rather limited. The theory is sound, but there's no practical evidence to back it up.

I agree the Bioroids are tailored for "infantry", but even w/n the infantry role there are multiple positions. And there are ways to allow the Bioroid to operate large weapons with one hand.

The implications are rather limited by the Tristar-class's age... it's supposedly one of the newest ships of the line in canon, while most of the ASC's equipment is from the period shortly before the UEEF left.

Actually no. While the Tri-Star might be young, it still is classified as a 2nd-Generation design. Which means its abilities are going to be similar to other "2nd Gen." naval designs, which IINM due to animation recycling can be seen in TMS in Ep31. It doesn't make any sense for the UEDF: ASC to design warships to handle Zentreadi and not have mecha/equipment to support them should the Zentreadi deploy mecha forces that the warships are not ideal for combating.

Now I am not calling for every peice of equipment the ASC fields to be anti-Zentreadi capable, but it would make sense for the ASC to have a "layered" approach to dealing with any future Zentreadi conflicts.

Even if we assume without evidence that the ASC's equipment is sufficiently powerful to tackle the Zentradi in a one-on-one fight... that still leaves the problem of numbers.

Of which there are a variety of ways to resolve the issue. The problem is that we have no guidance on what approach to take. The RPG seems to go with the notion that the dialogue by Leonard in Ep37 boils down to some type of political stump speech that is not necessarily 100% accurate, since per them HE was in Antarctica, nor was he counting the Zentreadi (in the show).

Likewise, the implication with respect to the Masters' level of capability is that their ships would outclass the Zentradi in a one-on-one fight... but the Masters came with hundreds of ships, the Zentradi with millions. We're talking differences of scale here.

There are problems here:
#1. For the Zentreadi to bring those millions of ships to a situation is supposedly rare. Breetai didn't have a million ships until late in the arc at Earth, nor did Azonia, Khyron, or Reno. So gatherings of a million or more ships seems unlikely.
#2. Did the Masters bring all their ships, or just a portion? The Elders had not joined the Masters in Ep37, so there is some indication that the fleet at Earth was not all of their ships.
#3. The Robotech Barrier's ability to be inverted is listed as being up to the task. Now the Robotech Barrier in question was on the SDF-1, but unless the SDF-1 was unique beyond its Protoculture Factory/Matrix, the Masters ships's then may be up to the task
#4. The Masters would be aware of various weaknesses in Zentreadi hardware and psyche allowing them to be far more effective
#5. If we accept that the ASC's 2nd Gen designs are of sufficient technology to engage larger Zentreadi ships, then the Masters being able to one-shot those warships w/o use of (TMS-style) Reflex Cannons would also mean that they can do similar feat to larger Zentreadi designs
#6. The Master's Mothership/Cityship has over 900 anti-ship cannons (this doesn't count the 1,200 Point Defense guns, nor the Reflex Cannon), which simply put means that one ship out guns any one Zentreadi ship listed in the Infopedia. So the Mothership's in terms of firepower are equal to numerous Zentreadi warships

[Colonel Wolfe]

actually they seem to think that's a deliberate feature so i'd guess that the master's own shield systems have a similar "generate a massive energy pulse" effect going on. presumbly they lacked the power to use it when they got to earth. (but since zor's ship had the protoculture factory it would never be on low power)

I don't know if its a feature... being the Masters imply that doing so is some pretty advanced robotechknology.. and refers to it as an over-load.
The "Vent" idea has alot of merit though.

[Seto Kaiba]

If the pilot is not operating at 100% mental stability, the pilot themself will have an impact on the Bioroid's overall capabilities, just like driving impaired or distracted.

Again, that doesn't actually impact the offensive or defensive capabilities of the hardware.

Not Deliberately holding back? The Masters are fighting a war with "kid gloves" on as they are in an energy crunch would limit what they can do:

At no point in the series do the Masters give any indication that they are withholding the usage of any of their weaponry, or reducing the power of said weaponry. They only indicate that continuing to maintain a war footing is draining their reserves at an alarmingly fast rate. At one point they mention that their combat capability is reduced because they're running short on Bioroid pilots (in Ep45) but that's about it until the very end of the series. Considering their entire campaign relies primarily on subterfuge, it's highly likely they never had the manpower or the resources to commit to an all-fronts war with humanity in the first place. They only commit to an overt offensive when they're run the clock down so far that they can only maintain their war footing for another four days (Ep59) and can no longer control their civilian population (Ep60). Even that offensive turns out to be little more than a ruse intended to get the Earth forces to get out of their way, rather than a genuine effort to take the planet. Their final offensive was a sneak attack on Monument City (Ep60).

The evidence of the series doesn't support the idea that the Masters are a nigh-unstoppable force, or that they're operating at below capacity prior to the very end of the saga. What IS supported is that the Masters really aren't very good at this whole "war" thing... and really aren't equipped to fight a serious war, even one against a relatively small and poorly equipped force like the ASC. Their forces are technologically impressive but ultimately not well-suited to combat. The Bioroids and assault carriers are highly mobile, but their armor is too light to go up against serious opposition unless they have numbers on their side. Once they've lost their high mobility advantage or stuck in a situation where they can't leverage it, they get picked to pieces in short order.

Actually no. While the Tri-Star might be young, it still is classified as a 2nd-Generation design. Which means its abilities are going to be similar to other "2nd Gen." naval designs, which IINM due to animation recycling can be seen in TMS in Ep31. It doesn't make any sense for the UEDF: ASC to design warships to handle Zentreadi and not have mecha/equipment to support them should the Zentreadi deploy mecha forces that the warships are not ideal for combating.

The whole "generation" thing isn't really defined properly... or at all.

Its canon contemporaries are nowhere near as heavily armed as the Tristar-class is, and with only a few dozen built (and that few dozen ships apparently comprising the entirety of the UEDF fleet) that means your argument fundamentally doesn't follow from the evidence.

Of which there are a variety of ways to resolve the issue. The problem is that we have no guidance on what approach to take. The RPG seems to go with the notion that the dialogue by Leonard in Ep37 boils down to some type of political stump speech that is not necessarily 100% accurate, since per them HE was in Antarctica, nor was he counting the Zentreadi (in the show).

The RPG naturally does its own thing, but it's quite vague on the actual disposition of the ASC by design. The ASC based on official canon and the OSM is a very small organization, and not exactly a well-equipped one either as it's making do with what's left after the Admirals Hunter picked the planet's arsenal clean.

#1. For the Zentreadi to bring those millions of ships to a situation is supposedly rare. Breetai didn't have a million ships until late in the arc at Earth, nor did Azonia, Khyron, or Reno. So gatherings of a million or more ships seems unlikely.

That really doesn't change anything.

#2. Did the Masters bring all their ships, or just a portion? The Elders had not joined the Masters in Ep37, so there is some indication that the fleet at Earth was not all of their ships.

What-ifs and might-bes are not especially convincing.

#3. The Robotech Barrier's ability to be inverted is listed as being up to the task. Now the Robotech Barrier in question was on the SDF-1, but unless the SDF-1 was unique beyond its Protoculture Factory/Matrix, the Masters ships's then may be up to the task

The Masters never display any barrier technology comparable to the omnidirectional barrier system on the SDF-1, so that may be something Zor came up with personally or otherwise nonstandard equipment.

#4. The Masters would be aware of various weaknesses in Zentreadi hardware and psyche allowing them to be far more effective

Possible, but we're talking raw firepower here, not psychological warfare.

#5. If we accept that the ASC's 2nd Gen designs are of sufficient technology to engage larger Zentreadi ships, then the Masters being able to one-shot those warships w/o use of (TMS-style) Reflex Cannons would also mean that they can do similar feat to larger Zentreadi designs

Possible, again, but the cycle time for a reflex cannon is pretty long and while a shot might kill a dozen or so warships... they've got five million more where that came from.

#6. The Master's Mothership/Cityship has over 900 anti-ship cannons (this doesn't count the 1,200 Point Defense guns, nor the Reflex Cannon), which simply put means that one ship out guns any one Zentreadi ship listed in the Infopedia. So the Mothership's in terms of firepower are equal to numerous Zentreadi warships

[/quote]
That assumes, of course, that the Masters' gun turrets are of comparable capability to those of the Zentradi... no such case is made via the animation.