Blood to Water (using Liquid to Water)

[Reagren Wright]

Okay let the Megaverse pondering this one. My friend is using his Undead Hunter (Yin Sloth
O.C.C.) and wants to use the Liquid to Water spell in his magic sword to turn blood of a living
being into water (sort of an instant kill attack). Reading Liquid to Water (page 240 in PFRPG) it's
basically a Transmutation spell that turns poisons, gasoline, toxic chemicals, etc into normal
drinking water. There is no saving throw on this thing because I'm certain the writer's original
intent is to effect foul water in a well, a cup of poison, milk, ale, etc. It's not intended to be used
offensively, then again blood is a liquid (mostly water). But then again, this is a water warlock
spell not a spell of Demon Magic or a Necromancer. So what is the true purpose of the spell? So I
won't say what I allowed but I'm curious as to a general consensus from the Megaverse using
Palladium Game rule mechanics, laws of physics, and suspension of disbelief.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Interesting question, never gave it much thought. Looking it over this is my response ...

1: Did you have him roll the %? There's only a 7% (per level) chance of success. So odds are pretty low it'll work at lower levels, but would still cost P.P.E. This won't necessarily stop the use, but shouldn't be ignored and can help balance out that lack of a saving throw.

2: My gut instinct was (and the ruling I'd probably go with as a G.M.) is that it needs to be an exposed source of liquid. This is based upon the Hydrokinesis psionic (totally different power, I know, but just where my mind went) ability #4 of sensing water. The water warlock ability #9 doesn't have this limit listed, but reads similar (at least to me). Since it's a Level Two spell, I have no issues imposing such a restriction upon it (and I think helps keep with the original intent of the spell). With that said, I can't say there's any book support for such a ruling on this spell. Note: Even though I discuss applying this limitation to the Liquids to Water spell, I oddly don't worry much about that restriction with the actual Hydrokinesis ability (I'd allow the character to sense a sealed bottle of water or an underground spring within range) or the Water Warlock natural ability (though this one has never actually come up in game yet). *Shrugs.*

Not sure that helps, but that's the best I have for you at this time. Farewell and safe journeys.

[The Beast]

Okay let the Megaverse pondering this one. My friend is using his Undead Hunter (Yin Sloth
O.C.C.) and wants to use the Liquid to Water spell in his magic sword to turn blood of a living
being into water (sort of an instant kill attack). Reading Liquid to Water (page 240 in PFRPG) it's
basically a Transmutation spell that turns poisons, gasoline, toxic chemicals, etc into normal
drinking water. There is no saving throw on this thing because I'm certain the writer's original
intent is to effect foul water in a well, a cup of poison, milk, ale, etc. It's not intended to be used
offensively, then again blood is a liquid (mostly water). But then again, this is a water warlock
spell not a spell of Demon Magic or a Necromancer. So what is the true purpose of the spell? So I
won't say what I allowed but I'm curious as to a general consensus from the Megaverse using
Palladium Game rule mechanics, laws of physics, and suspension of disbelief.

Mystically speaking, blood is completely different from water. Therefore, the spell wouldn't work on blood. Now if he wants to make a version that does work on blood I'd say let him. Use the rules in TtGD and have him put in the R&D work, funding, and all that in character. Meanwhile you come up with the stats of the spell. Only thing is I would place a saving throw on it, and have it cost a significant amount (30 PPE for 3d6 damage is what I have in mind). That way there if he still wants to make it an instant-kill-type spell, he'd see it's doable, but PPE costly.

[Library Ogre]

I would not allow it; as you say, it's a very effective instant death spell, as written. Even tacking on a saving throw seems like it would be too cheap for the effect. Like Prysus, I'd let it work on exposed blood (the blood around a wound, or that a vampire was drinking, or even in a blood bag), but not blood in the vein, even with a deep cut being present.

[eliakon]

I would say that the no saving throw was because it was assumed it was being cast on water that was an 'object' and objects don't get saves. If it is being cast on a living thing I would
1) only let visible blood be transformed
2) Make sure all needed rolls are made
3) allow a saving throw

This assumes that I allowed it. I would also make sure that my players understood that if they do this, it will mean that this is a valid use of this (very common, low level) spell and that any NPC can do the same thing back.
For some odd reason this tends to curb the worst 'insta-kill' shenanigans in my games

In general though if the proposed use of a spell/ability/whatever sounds like its a way to get around the normal limits of the game I simply award 25xp for creativity.....and disallow it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Agrees with Eli's 1st sentence.

The main point is that the assumption the writer had was that the liquid needs to be outside of a living being for this spell to work at all.
I would not let this spell work on the fluids inside living beings.

There is no damage rating associated with the spell. A variant that would be damaging to living beings (+1 level & +2 PPE cost) I would think would do about 1D4 SD per level of Warlock. The range for doing damage would be limited to touch, but the magic could be finish and charged into one of the Warlock's appendages for a 1 or 2 melees. The normal Saving Throws would be applicable.

[SpiritInterface]

It would depend greatly on the volume of blood being transmuted. Anything short of 6 pints you may cause the target to become weak or ill but you won't kill them. What do you think Paramedics are pumping in when they are giving wounded Saline? If you keep the pressure up the person might become anemic and weak but it won't kill them.

[Alrik Vas]

Roll percentage, if successful, allow saving throw with -1 for every ten percent of Success.

Spell deals 2d6 HP with a bonus of +1 per experience level.

[SpiritInterface]

Roll percentage, if successful, allow saving throw with -1 for every ten percent of Success.

Spell deals 2d6 HP with a bonus of +1 per experience level.

Is that the spell text or your opinion?

As someone who had 4 liters of saline pumped in so fast they were squeezing the bags, having some of your blood replaced with pure water do any real damage.

So unless you a transmuting a couple of gallons (enough volume to cause instant death) there should be no practical effect.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Roll percentage, if successful, allow saving throw with -1 for every ten percent of Success.

Spell deals 2d6 HP with a bonus of +1 per experience level.

Is that the spell text or your opinion?

As someone who had 4 liters of saline pumped in so fast they were squeezing the bags, having some of your blood replaced with pure water do any real damage.

So unless you a transmuting a couple of gallons (enough volume to cause instant death) there should be no practical effect.

His opinion.
The spell text as written for fluids outside of a being.

[Jefffar]

There was a nice Rifter article about the concept of mystic auras that would provide the justification for giving a living being having their blood subjected to this as an attack a saving throw.

There would also need to be access to the blood through a significant wound.

The above assumes you'd even want it to be allowable.

Beyond that, ask the player if he really wants his character to play in a game where the GM can turn his blood into water, because if the character can do it, the GM can do it too.

[Alrik Vas]

Roll percentage, if successful, allow saving throw with -1 for every ten percent of Success.

Spell deals 2d6 HP with a bonus of +1 per experience level.

Is that the spell text or your opinion?

As someone who had 4 liters of saline pumped in so fast they were squeezing the bags, having some of your blood replaced with pure water do any real damage.

So unless you a transmuting a couple of gallons (enough volume to cause instant death) there should be no practical effect.

My opinion. I'm over here armchairing it, never read the spell in my life. Though I think instantaneous changes to the body can cause shock. That's irrelevant to Palladium fantasy, though. I was thinking it might be cool to have non-evil magic deal direct HP damage, really.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Okay let the Megaverse pondering this one. My friend is using his Undead Hunter (Yin Sloth
O.C.C.) and wants to use the Liquid to Water spell in his magic sword to turn blood of a living
being into water (sort of an instant kill attack). Reading Liquid to Water (page 240 in PFRPG) it's
basically a Transmutation spell that turns poisons, gasoline, toxic chemicals, etc into normal
drinking water. There is no saving throw on this thing because I'm certain the writer's original
intent is to effect foul water in a well, a cup of poison, milk, ale, etc. It's not intended to be used
offensively, then again blood is a liquid (mostly water). But then again, this is a water warlock
spell not a spell of Demon Magic or a Necromancer. So what is the true purpose of the spell? So I
won't say what I allowed but I'm curious as to a general consensus from the Megaverse using
Palladium Game rule mechanics, laws of physics, and suspension of disbelief.

Question: Is the Undead Hunter a warlock turned Undead Hunter or is the Undead Hunter the char's 1st Class?


The reason being is that the 'Liquid to Water' Spell in the 2nd edition is just a Water Warlock spell, and is not included in the Undead Hunter staring spell list. Nor is not a part of spells available to wizards as per the limits to what spells a the Undead Hunter can learn.

[Reagren Wright]

The spell is one that in his magic sword. Undead Hunters can come with a magic sword that has four spell in it.
Liquid to Water is one of those spells.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The spell is one that in his magic sword. Undead Hunters can come with a magic sword that has four spell in it.
Liquid to Water is one of those spells.

Okay...I see it there now.

[Reagren Wright]

I would not allow it; as you say, it's a very effective instant death spell, as written. Even tacking on a saving throw seems like it would be too cheap for the effect. Like Prysus, I'd let it work on exposed blood (the blood around a wound, or that a vampire was drinking, or even in a blood bag), but not blood in the vein, even with a deep cut being present.

That was sort of my thinking, claiming because there is "living matter" within it cannot be
transformed. Great debate guys thanks for your comments.

[Sir_Spirit]

BLood is 98% water already, so I would let him have it but not have it do any thing.

[Axelmania]

Isn't blood already water with solid thingies (blood cells and other nutrients) dissolved into it?

[The Beast]

Scientifically, yes. Mystically, no.

[Axelmania]

"Liquid" is a scientific term though. Is there a 'mystic' definition of liquid we should know to determine if blood falls into that?

[Nightmask]

Isn't blood already water with solid thingies (blood cells and other nutrients) dissolved into it?

No. Blood cells (which aren't nutrients, although they do carry them) and the other things in blood are suspended in circulatory fluid which while mostly water isn't just water and in all honestly the human body in general is mostly made up of water.

[Axelmania]

By 'other' I intended 'other solid thingies' but worded it wrong