Radioactive Weapon

[Alrik Vas]

By the sources (OSM, comics, dialogue in show), what weapons in Robotech cause lethal radiation?

Let's leave real science and out own suppositions our of this for now.

[Seto Kaiba]

By the sources (OSM, comics, dialogue in show), what weapons in Robotech cause lethal radiation?

Let's leave real science and out own suppositions our of this for now.

Several Robotech sources (incl. the Infopedia) make mention of radioactive contamination being an issue that sprang up in the wake of the Zentradi orbital bombardment of Earth... and that several cities were domed over because of it. However, beyond that, there are no specifics given as to the origin, severity, or extent of the radioactive contamination. It could be a legacy of the missile and beam weapons used in the bombardment, or it could just as easily be a localized phenomenon caused by the destruction of any number of nuclear power plants and radioactive waste storage facilities.

The frankly extensive catalog of damages caused by the orbital bombardment in the Macross OSM doesn't include radioactive contamination until Macross: Do You Remember Love? and the scene with the world's ugliest fish. (Hikaru isn't clear on if he treated the fish with anti-radiation drugs before cooking it as a precaution or because his VT-1's instruments detected any elevated radiation levels.) There shouldn't have been any significant or lingering radioactivity as a result of the bombardment, because the Zentradi Army doesn't use conventional nuclear weaponry and neither the super dimension energy weapons nor the thermonuclear reaction warheads produce harmful radioactive byproducts. (The same is true of thermonuclear reaction power systems.)

[Alrik Vas]

That was indeed an ugly fish. Is DYRL considered direct source material for Robotech?

[Chronicler]

By the sources (OSM, comics, dialogue in show), what weapons in Robotech cause lethal radiation?

Let's leave real science and out own suppositions our of this for now.

Several Robotech sources (incl. the Infopedia) make mention of radioactive contamination being an issue that sprang up in the wake of the Zentradi orbital bombardment of Earth... and that several cities were domed over because of it. However, beyond that, there are no specifics given as to the origin, severity, or extent of the radioactive contamination. It could be a legacy of the missile and beam weapons used in the bombardment, or it could just as easily be a localized phenomenon caused by the destruction of any number of nuclear power plants and radioactive waste storage facilities.

The frankly extensive catalog of damages caused by the orbital bombardment in the Macross OSM doesn't include radioactive contamination until Macross: Do You Remember Love? and the scene with the world's ugliest fish. (Hikaru isn't clear on if he treated the fish with anti-radiation drugs before cooking it as a precaution or because his VT-1's instruments detected any elevated radiation levels.) There shouldn't have been any significant or lingering radioactivity as a result of the bombardment, because the Zentradi Army doesn't use conventional nuclear weaponry and neither the super dimension energy weapons nor the thermonuclear reaction warheads produce harmful radioactive byproducts. (The same is true of thermonuclear reaction power systems.)

I would say old plants and storage facilities. And maybe our stockpile of warheads. I would think Particle Beam weapons have like a few seconds of high radiation before it dissipates to normal background.

[Arnie100]

That was indeed an ugly fish. Is DYRL considered direct source material for Robotech?

Harmony Gold never had the rights to DYRL, IIRC.

[Jefffar]

That was indeed an ugly fish. Is DYRL considered direct source material for Robotech?

It's not part of the origional episodes converted into Robotech, but is instead a feature film set in the Macross universe based on the Macross TV series. Some folks have used it as a source of additional information for the Macross era of Robotech because of this relationship.

[Seto Kaiba]

That was indeed an ugly fish. Is DYRL considered direct source material for Robotech?

Nope... though that hasn't stopped the RPG from accidentally using art and other material from it. Palladium keeps using the wrong cockpit art for the VF-1, for instance.

For Macross's main timeline, DYRL? is a historical docu-drama that came out in-universe in 2031. (It was, to a limited extent, filmed in-universe using real ships and fighters.)

For Macross II, the movie is regarded as the more accurate of the two depictions of the First Space War.

[Alrik Vas]

I'm aware of what Do You Remember Love? is. From the information so far, we don't have weapons that are causing lethal radiation.

That's interesting.

[glitterboy2098]

note that while the massive ship based particle beams like the SDF-1 and zentreadi use probably don't generate much fallout directly, they would generate some indirectly. particle bombardment of materials can change isotopes (creating a variety of short lived radioactives to be spread around by the explosion caused by the hit) , and when they hit things they'd release a lot of X-rays and Gamma rays via Bremsstrahlung, which could also create some secondary fallout via isotopic transmutation. not as much the the beam itself, though.

i could have sworn i've read somewhere that reflex weapons in robotech don't generate radiation/fallout, but i can't remember where.. or if it was a source that still counts. so no idea if the reflex missiles humanity throws around are a danger. i'd imagine they'd be pretty clean though, not having fissionables in them.

certainly the zentreadi bombardment in robotech was a remarkably clean thing over all, since we see people in plain clothes/plain uniform in some of the most pounded wilderness areas after it.

if it had been done with conventional fission or fission-trigger-fusion nukes the fallout would be so bad that you'd need anti-radiation suits just about everywhere until long after the 2040s.


i suspect that any areas of robotech earth that are still hot-zones after a year or so were places where you had lots of fissionable vaporized and spread around.. old nuclear plants, stockpiles of global war nukes, uranium mining sites, etc.

[Arnie100]

Wouldn't surprise me if the Rain of Death detonated some old nuclear stockpiles...

[Alrik Vas]

For now let's leave the real life science behind and just work with the sources for the show itself. Later we can start all of our usual conjecture.

[eliakon]

For now let's leave the real life science behind and just work with the sources for the show itself. Later we can start all of our usual conjecture.

I am not sure that there are any show based sources of weapon based radiation.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, it doesn't appear so. Again, I find it interesting. In the novels (non-canon source) the authors talk a few times about fallout from the Rain of Death, the destruction site of the SDF-1 and possibly other locations I'm not recalling.

Yet as far as I know, they don't even explain why, really. It's just left up to our brains to go, "Ah, power sources, cracked reactors, leaking fuel, yes dangerous radiation, understood." Though even then it was just protoculture...so...yeah.

So it looks like a Docu-drama that isn't official OSM material for Robotech is the only thing that directly talks about radiation, and it could even be a result of Hikaru going fishing near the remains of the Prometheus.

[glitterboy2098]

the masters say in the first episode of southern cross (IIRC.. may have been the 2nd) that the SDF-1 had some sort of radiation issue. they claim when they identify the location of the protoculture factory that humanity had tried to hide the factory behind some sort of radiation.

then again, the SDF-1 may well have had fission reactors or something as backups for the backups power wise, or otherwise have some radiation generating materials on board that normally wouldn't have been an issue.

could also be that there was something in macross city or the materials used to make the sarcophagus that forms the mounds though. (we see in From the stars that the mounds have a massive structure underneath housing the remains of the SDF-1 and khyrons ship, as well as debris from the city)

[Alrik Vas]

That does sound familiar, GB08. Hrrrmmm.

[The Artist Formerly]

By the sources (OSM, comics, dialogue in show), what weapons in Robotech cause lethal radiation?

Let's leave real science and out own suppositions our of this for now.

Several Robotech sources (incl. the Infopedia) make mention of radioactive contamination being an issue that sprang up in the wake of the Zentradi orbital bombardment of Earth... and that several cities were domed over because of it. However, beyond that, there are no specifics given as to the origin, severity, or extent of the radioactive contamination. It could be a legacy of the missile and beam weapons used in the bombardment, or it could just as easily be a localized phenomenon caused by the destruction of any number of nuclear power plants and radioactive waste storage facilities.

The frankly extensive catalog of damages caused by the orbital bombardment in the Macross OSM doesn't include radioactive contamination until Macross: Do You Remember Love? and the scene with the world's ugliest fish. (Hikaru isn't clear on if he treated the fish with anti-radiation drugs before cooking it as a precaution or because his VT-1's instruments detected any elevated radiation levels.) There shouldn't have been any significant or lingering radioactivity as a result of the bombardment, because the Zentradi Army doesn't use conventional nuclear weaponry and neither the super dimension energy weapons nor the thermonuclear reaction warheads produce harmful radioactive byproducts. (The same is true of thermonuclear reaction power systems.)

I would wonder if the radiation might not be from orbital strikes hitting nuclear sources such as power plants or warhead storage. Both would have been targets, population centers and military locations.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm aware of what Do You Remember Love? is. From the information so far, we don't have weapons that are causing lethal radiation.

That's interesting.

That does appear to be the case, yes.

None of the original three shows used to make Robotech include weaponry that would leave behind residual radioactivity. The only mention of residual radioactivity I've been able to find is in Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 09A "Reaction Weapon", in a parenthetical note that indicates that the earliest thermonuclear reaction warheads created during the Unification Wars did have the potential to leave a lingering radioactivity after detonation. However, the same sheet repeats several times that "modern" ones (those used in the First Space War and after) produce no lingering radioactivity whatsoever. Dimension weapons work on almost an identical set of principles to reaction weaponry, and the fusion plasma beams they fire produce no long-term radioactivity.

I am not sure that there are any show based sources of weapon based radiation.

If there are, I haven't been able to find any mention of them in the OSM or the few Robotech sources to talk about weaponry.

So it looks like a Docu-drama that isn't official OSM material for Robotech is the only thing that directly talks about radiation, and it could even be a result of Hikaru going fishing near the remains of the Prometheus.

... believe it or not, I'd never considered that as an explanation before.

That would certainly explain his having treated the locally-caught fish with anti-radiation medication during the preparation process, as the Prometheus' power system was a quartet of pressurized water-type nuclear reactors. Being cut almost completely in half by fire from a dimension weapon and then left alone for the better part of a year probably did nothing good to those reactors.

could also be that there was something in macross city or the materials used to make the sarcophagus that forms the mounds though. (we see in From the stars that the mounds have a massive structure underneath housing the remains of the SDF-1 and khyrons ship, as well as debris from the city)

Problem is, in From the Stars we see that the city is still very much inhabited while the mounds are being built... nobody on site seems to be at all concerned about radiation.

[devillin]

That was indeed an ugly fish. Is DYRL considered direct source material for Robotech?

Harmony Gold never had the rights to DYRL, IIRC.

However, don't they technically have the rights to Clash of the Bionoids?

[Seto Kaiba]

Harmony Gold never had the rights to DYRL, IIRC.

However, don't they technically have the rights to Clash of the Bionoids?

Nope.

Harmony Gold has never had the distribution rights to Macross: Do You Remember Love? in any form... not even the godawful Hong Kong dub that Toho Company Ltd. bankrolled, was edited into Clash of the Bionoids by its US distributor. Tatsunoko Pro. couldn't license the distribution rights to Harmony Gold because they don't have them either... those rights are held by Toho. What Harmony Gold does have (under license) are the merchandising rights to the movie, which they didn't get until 2001.

[ShadowLogan]

could also be that there was something in macross city or the materials used to make the sarcophagus that forms the mounds though. (we see in From the stars that the mounds have a massive structure underneath housing the remains of the SDF-1 and khyrons ship, as well as debris from the city)

Problem is, in From the Stars we see that the city is still very much inhabited while the mounds are being built... nobody on site seems to be at all concerned about radiation.

In Ep37 the Masters mention the Mounds "the area does appear to be guarded by a form of inorganic sentry or it could be an Invid trap" (IINM that is the dialogue). In "Half Moon" Zor Prime reports that the inhabitants appear to be using radiation to mask the Protoculture (no quote handy), which if true could indicate the radiation was added later.

If you will recall also in "From the Stars", toward the end a few Zentreadi ships are used to open up on the site with orbital strikes to burry the site. Providing a potential source and explanation for the lack of concern at the time.

It should be noted though that even fusion reactors can generate radioactive waste (short lived compared to fission). This provides another source of radiation to consider.

[Seto Kaiba]

In Ep37 the Masters mention the Mounds "the area does appear to be guarded by a form of inorganic sentry or it could be an Invid trap" (IINM that is the dialogue). In "Half Moon" Zor Prime reports that the inhabitants appear to be using radiation to mask the Protoculture (no quote handy), which if true could indicate the radiation was added later.

That wouldn't account for the alleged significant radioactive contamination elsewhere in the world at the time... the reason cited for domed cities being built, among other things.

Also, as people waltz into the mounds and hang around for no short span of time, it would appear that whatever radiation is there is either some form of exotic sci-fi radiation that poses no health risk to humans or that the levels of radiation are so low that there is no health risk from hours of sustained exposure.

If you will recall also in "From the Stars", toward the end a few Zentreadi ships are used to open up on the site with orbital strikes to bury the site. Providing a potential source and explanation for the lack of concern at the time.

But we've already pretty thoroughly rejected the idea that those weapons produce significant or lingering radioactive effects of the type the thread is about...

It should be noted though that even fusion reactors can generate radioactive waste (short lived compared to fission). This provides another source of radiation to consider.

But again, not long-lived enough to be relevant for the topic at hand.

[ShadowLogan]

That wouldn't account for the alleged significant radioactive contamination elsewhere in the world at the time... the reason cited for domed cities being built, among other things.

Agreed, but looking for a single source for all those contaminated areas might be a fool's errand, we might be looking at multiple direct causes (stock pile of waste/isotopes scattered/leaked by explosion directly/indirectly, damaging safety features to cause melt-downs, putting holes in Earth's natural protections from space radiation, etc). The show suggests that the Mounds are the site of an intentionally artificially contaminated site, which would certainly put its cause as different than say a 3-mile Island or Chernobyl or Ozone Hole(s).

All we know about the Radiation is that it can "mask" the PC present, we don't know if it is ionizing radiation (they type that is harmful to humans) or not. A variety of factors could allow the people to sustain themselves just fine for the hours of exposure.

But we've already pretty thoroughly rejected the idea that those weapons produce significant or lingering radioactive effects of the type the thread is about...

True, stock weapons don't appear to be a source of lingering radiation in terms of direct action, but that would not rule out secondary effects as a result of the blasts. The blasts can still be used to spread radioactive material.

[glitterboy2098]

what domed cities? we only have one example.. "Denver". every other city we see in post-bombardment macross, southern cross, and new gen is open air.

so i think the argument that radiation is ever present falls flat.

[Seto Kaiba]

what domed cities? we only have one example.. "Denver". every other city we see in post-bombardment macross, southern cross, and new gen is open air.

so i think the argument that radiation is ever present falls flat.

The official material (e.g. Infopedia) asserts that "many" cities have been sealed off to avoid radioactive contamination.

"Earth is not the pleasant planet it used to be. Although several cities have been rebuilt, including New Macross City, many of them have had to be sealed off to avoid radiation contamination."

Robotech.com Infopedia

[glitterboy2098]

and yet the show has no indications of radiactive contamination. no evidence of domed cities beong common.

in fact the show pretty much indicated the exact opposite.

and since HG's canon policy says the show overrules everything else when there is a clash of details, i think we can safely say the infopedia is incorrect in this case.

[Chronicler]

and yet the show has no indications of radiactive contamination. no evidence of domed cities beong common.

in fact the show pretty much indicated the exact opposite.

and since HG's canon policy says the show overrules everything else when there is a clash of details, i think we can safely say the infopedia is incorrect in this case.

Well this is probably another case of over-site by the creators.

Anyways on topic it looks like reaction warheads are the only radioactive weapon unless we want to include particle beam weapons. Yes they produce radioactivity, but only for a very short time from what I understand. I would chalk up powerplant meltdowns and exploded nuclear warheads as the cause for the lingering fallout.

[eliakon]

We also don't know if 'sealed off' means evacuated and quarantined after it was determined that there was unacceptable radiation levels present AKA Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, or if 'sealed off' means that they were domed AKA Denver.

Since there is only one domed city in the show, and all the visibly populated cities are not domed I would think that the first is the way to make these two seemingly contradictory factors mesh.

[glitterboy2098]

and yet the show has no indications of radiactive contamination. no evidence of domed cities beong common.

in fact the show pretty much indicated the exact opposite.

and since HG's canon policy says the show overrules everything else when there is a clash of details, i think we can safely say the infopedia is incorrect in this case.

Well this is probably another case of over-site by the creators.

Anyways on topic it looks like reaction warheads are the only radioactive weapon unless we want to include particle beam weapons. Yes they produce radioactivity, but only for a very short time from what I understand. I would chalk up powerplant meltdowns and exploded nuclear warheads as the cause for the lingering fallout.

i think claiming the creators of macross not including radiation hazards was an oversight is premature.. without more info you can't really determine whether it was intentional or not.

also, "reaction weapons" do not exist in robotech. (those are original macross) robotech has "reflex weapons" which includes a variety of things not found in the original macross.

also, while there is visual evidence for the use of the big beam type reflex weapons against earth (by the zentreadi gunships), there is no visual evidence for the use of reflex warhead missiles. as has been pointed out, the beams should be minimal fallout.

so there really is little to support the idea of radiation being widespread. its far more likely that you have localized radiation contamination due to things like Chernobyl, three mile island, and other atomic reactor sites being damaged or destroyed. which may have resulted in a few surviving communities having to be declared no-man's lands (not unlike the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone in real life) with limited access until the radioactive materials decay to safe levels.

i mean, there were 400 some nuclear reactors on earth in the 90's. and that was just the civil stuff used to power countries. add in things like nuclear waste storage, the nuclear plants of ships and subs docked at port, nuclear processing plants.. you could get some fairly sizeable areas around the globe where such contamination would make living there hazardous. yet at the same time, its not enough to render the whole world a radioactive waste.

[ShadowLogan]

and yet the show has no indications of radiactive contamination. no evidence of domed cities beong common.

in fact the show pretty much indicated the exact opposite.

and since HG's canon policy says the show overrules everything else when there is a clash of details, i think we can safely say the infopedia is incorrect in this case.

The show establishes though that Radiation contamination IS A THING:
SC Lenoard in Ep37 Graduation Speech: "...you are well aware of the conditions here on our planet many battle sites including that of New Macross City have been sealed off to avoid radiation contaimination other cities have been rebuilt..."

As far as the domed cities being common, yes I agree here what is shown comes across more as a "new thing" given we only see one domed city proper in the whole of TRM (and maybe even Denver in TNG qualified at one time).

[Seto Kaiba]

and yet the show has no indications of radiactive contamination.

'cept, of course, for it being explicitly mentioned in Ep37 by no less an authority than Supreme Commander Leonard himself.

That is, of course, the genesis of the inquiry in the first post... where did the radiation come from, that made it necessary to seal off battlefields to prevent radioactive contamination? The radiation produced by particle beam weapons is short-lived and negligible, no long-term radioactive byproducts are left behind by aneutronic fusion reactors like those used to power Earth Forces mecha, and the reflex power systems used by Zentradi mecha shouldn't be producing any radioisotopes either based on what little is said about how protoculture works.

Anyways on topic it looks like reaction warheads are the only radioactive weapon unless we want to include particle beam weapons. Yes they produce radioactivity, but only for a very short time from what I understand. I would chalk up powerplant meltdowns and exploded nuclear warheads as the cause for the lingering fallout.

Um... if you meant the thermonuclear reaction warheads from the Macross OSM, the warheads used during the First Space War don't produce any residual radioactive material or lingering radiation.[sup]1[/sup] They are effectively "clean" nuclear(-like) weapons (of significantly greater power).

If you meant reflex warheads, the ones used in Robotech, we don't know how those work... but there's no indication they leave radioactive fallout behind either.

As far as exploded nuclear warheads... when? You can't set a nuclear warhead off by shooting it, and nobody on Earth got a shot off before being annihilated from orbit except the Grand Cannon (or Grand Cannon I for the OSM).[sup]2[/sup]

i think claiming the creators of macross not including radiation hazards was an oversight is premature.. without more info you can't really determine whether it was intentional or not.

Actually, we can say with a fair amount of certainty that the creators of Macross did include minor radioactive hazards in their post-war setting. However, the radiation in question isn't a byproduct of the dimension weaponry used in the orbital bombardment, or thermonuclear reaction weaponry used in the counterattack against the Boddole Zer mobile fortress. Macross Chronicle's Technology Sheet 15A "Nature Regeneration Project" makes brief mention of the use of designer bacteria to decontaminate regions where radioactive pollution was present.

(It's treated as a very minor issue compared to other problems like the bombardment having changed the axis of Earth's rotation, radical shifts in climate, atmospheric pollution, and annihilation of the planet's ecosystem, and so on. It's not presented as being a risk to the health of Earth's ~9 million inhabitants.)

also, "reaction weapons" do not exist in robotech. (those are original macross) robotech has "reflex weapons" which includes a variety of things not found in the original macross.

... well, to be entirely fair, the term "reflex weapon" in Robotech just refers to weapons that use protoculture. The spectrum of technologies that encompasses in Robotech (ersatz nukes, particle beam weapons) can all be found in Macross too.

also, while there is visual evidence for the use of the big beam type reflex weapons against earth (by the zentreadi gunships), there is no visual evidence for the use of reflex warhead missiles. as has been pointed out, the beams should be minimal fallout.

Actually, there are several shots in the bombardment where missiles (this type) are clearly visible. But there's no indication that reflex warheads produce any fallout either.



1. Explicitly stated, Macross Chronicle (Revised Ed.) Technology Sheet 09A "Reaction Weapons".
2. See Ep27, "Love Drifts Away" or "Force of Arms", depending on your preferred version.

[Chronicler]

Okay I goofed on the name of the weapons; I meant "Reflex" weapons not "Reaction". When I meant the creators I meant the writers for Robotech. I know Macross actually had radioactive fallout in it's show(s).

As for the nukes getting hit I'd figure the materials that make up the warhead would spread like a dirty bomb than actual detonation. Famous example is this accident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Palomares_B-52_crash

[glitterboy2098]

and yet the show has no indications of radiactive contamination. no evidence of domed cities beong common.

in fact the show pretty much indicated the exact opposite.

and since HG's canon policy says the show overrules everything else when there is a clash of details, i think we can safely say the infopedia is incorrect in this case.

The show establishes though that Radiation contamination IS A THING:
SC Lenoard in Ep37 Graduation Speech: "...you are well aware of the conditions here on our planet many battle sites including that of New Macross City have been sealed off to avoid radiation contaimination other cities have been rebuilt..."

As far as the domed cities being common, yes I agree here what is shown comes across more as a "new thing" given we only see one domed city proper in the whole of TRM (and maybe even Denver in TNG qualified at one time).

actually "battles sites" =/= "whole planet"

and once again, "sealed off" suggests no-mans-lands and exclusion zones, not domes cities.

and we don't see a domed city in TRM. and Denver is debatable since visually it's less a dome and more a "city inside a mountain"

so we've got zero support from macross and TRM, and one questionable from TNG.


and "denver" being inside a mountain makes a lot of sense from the perspective of what Breetai called "space war tactics". most of the new construction we see in the show after dolza's attack is underground in various fashions. built into the bottoms of craters, submerged into hillsides, built along the walls of canyons, etc. all places that would help protect from nuclear like blasts.. the type of thing we see zentreadi and tyrolian beam weapons producing.

"denver" as we see it makes more sense from the perspective of being built as an elaborate survival shelter than from some radiation hazard.

for one, as chernobyl showed, trying to build something in an area with radiation health hazards is pretty difficult. and why would the people want to continue living there if there is a radiation hazard? it makes more sense the area and town would just be "sealed off" the same way as chernobyl, Centralia. Tar Creek, Arkwright town, the trinity site, and others in real life. which sonsist mainly of fences, checkpoints, and lots of "danger" and "no entry" signs.

[Seto Kaiba]

actually "battles sites" =/= "whole planet"

You could make a very sound argument that it does, on the basis of Ep27.

Of course, this is all strictly off-topic... the actual subject under discussion being "Where the did the radiation come from?".

[eliakon]

actually "battles sites" =/= "whole planet"

You could make a very sound argument that it does, on the basis of Ep27.

Of course, this is all strictly off-topic... the actual subject under discussion being "Where the did the radiation come from?".

The answer to which is
No one knows as there is no official extent of the radiation, no official source of the radiation, and no official solution....
meaning that its pure personal speculation on anyone's part to figure out how much radiation there is, where it is, what caused it, or how much reaction to it there is.

[glitterboy2098]

actually you could only invoke ep27's bombardment if the quote was not referring to sites plural. so unless you want to claim the entire earth has been sealed off, along with earth orbit, mars and anywhere else the SDF-1 visited, the line cannot be referring to the bombardment of earth, because that would only qualify as a single battlesite.

given the line occurs during a speech commemorating Khyron's final attack on the SDF-1 and macross city, and the footage that accompanies the line is that of the destroyed macross city, and that we get from the master's not much later that the ruins of macross city and the SDF-1 have some sort of radiological signature, it is far far more likely that the line refers to specific locations where battles occurred and left hazardous materials.

considering the events we do see, odds are that macrosscity/theSDF-1 was one such site. the remains of the grand cannon were another such site. and likely other places where we see major destruction, like New Detroit (Khyron's attack leveled the place, and it had a crashed zent warship in the center, which may have had dangerous stuff when destroyed).

and given the opening scene of "from the stars issue 0" with the zentreadi rebels and the ruined city, odds are there were some places we never saw on screen.

[ShadowLogan]

actually "battles sites" =/= "whole planet"

Agree, but that does not change the fact that the show establishes that there are areas that have been sealed off from radiation. I do not dispute that the show doesn't support domed cities being common, and yes is an incident of a domed city in TRM saga (ep60 during the surface battle around the 12min mark when Bioroids strafe the transparent dome and you can see the support base and silhouettes of Battloids, there is another shot I recall, but can't place it at the moment).

Denver was not built underground, it looks to be covered in a dome of ice, though you can't tell if its pure ice or not. I would think there would have to be something artificial to allow it to form like it does though, at least to keep things simple. There is no evidence that NG's Denver was built underground w/n the show (I know the Novels have "Denver" as underground, but in the Novels it really wasn't "Denver").

[eliakon]

actually "battles sites" =/= "whole planet"

Agree, but that does not change the fact that the show establishes that there are areas that have been sealed off from radiation. I do not dispute that the show doesn't support domed cities being common, and yes is an incident of a domed city in TRM saga (ep60 during the surface battle around the 12min mark when Bioroids strafe the transparent dome and you can see the support base and silhouettes of Battloids, there is another shot I recall, but can't place it at the moment).

Denver was not built underground, it looks to be covered in a dome of ice, though you can't tell if its pure ice or not. I would think there would have to be something artificial to allow it to form like it does though, at least to keep things simple. There is no evidence that NG's Denver was built underground w/n the show (I know the Novels have "Denver" as underground, but in the Novels it really wasn't "Denver").

The TRM ep. 60 battle is a domed something yes. But the blast is pretty big if its a city...it looks like that is a smaller most likely a sensor of some sort rather than an entire city dome.

Denver could be either way The stalagmites/icicles from and such from where the group entered do look like it was a 'sky light' and not a full dome, but it could be either way. Not being a dome and fully underground would explain a LOT of things (like why only a tiny window was melted by the heat, why the mountain trail ran over it, why there was not a curved roof over head etc.).

Even if neither of these (or any) city is domed (which I personally doubt due to the logistics and the sheer size of domes) that doesn't mean that areas can not be sealed off since we know from real world experience that places up to and including cities can, and have been sealed off because of contamination.

[Seto Kaiba]

The TRM ep. 60 battle is a domed something yes. But the blast is pretty big if its a city...it looks like that is a smaller most likely a sensor of some sort rather than an entire city dome.

Just for the record, the production art of the original Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross does clearly identify that domed structure as a city. The art for same appears on page 75 of This is Animation 10: Southern Cross, captioned 「グロリエの都市」(Gurorie no toshi, lit. "City on Glorie").[sup]1[/sup]


1. Probably one of the cities established in the earliest phases of colonization, before the military's terraforming raised the planet's temperature to a more tolerable level. -22°F is not exactly outdoor activity-friendly weather, y'know.

[eliakon]

The TRM ep. 60 battle is a domed something yes. But the blast is pretty big if its a city...it looks like that is a smaller most likely a sensor of some sort rather than an entire city dome.

Just for the record, the production art of the original Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross does clearly identify that domed structure as a city. The art for same appears on page 75 of This is Animation 10: Southern Cross, captioned 「グロリエの都市」(Gurorie no toshi, lit. "City on Glorie").[sup]1[/sup]


1. Probably one of the cities established in the earliest phases of colonization, before the military's terraforming raised the planet's temperature to a more tolerable level. -22°F is not exactly outdoor activity-friendly weather, y'know.

Okay, so for the sake of discussion, lets pretend that the Japanese show material is being used for Robotech (its not which is why they have two separate canons all the time)
How big are we saying that city is?
Because if we say that its just five city blocks across, then that dome looks to be around what? A mile tall if my math is right? Two?
If that city was five miles in diameter......whooo boy that's one heck of a tall dome to build on a planet that actually has atmosphere

[Seto Kaiba]

Okay, so for the sake of discussion, lets pretend that the Japanese show material is being used for Robotech (its not which is why they have two separate canons all the time)

I know I've pointed out this basic, self-evident fact before... the official Robotech material AND the RPG do, in fact, use the Japanese original source material as a primary source of information. Since the reboot of the franchise in '01, the extent of the OSM's usage has only increased.

How big are we saying that city is?
Because if we say that its just five city blocks across, then that dome looks to be around what? A mile tall if my math is right? Two?
If that city was five miles in diameter......whooo boy that's one heck of a tall dome to build on a planet that actually has atmosphere

The actual line art of the dome gives no clues to scale, but the brief appearance in the animation has a few minor scale references which suggest that it's only maybe 300-400m across at the surface level (giving it a footprint of about 8 Sacramento city blocks)... though it could potentially extend underground as well. The dome is not a perfect hemisphere either, and appears to only be about 100m tall at its apex. Scale issues are unfortunately rather endemic to Southern Cross, along with off-model animation, so it probably isn't much better than a shot in the dark though.

Fairly small, by all accounts, but appropriate to a sparsely-populated world that is not entirely human-habitable as in both Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross and Robotech.

[eliakon]

Okay, so for the sake of discussion, lets pretend that the Japanese show material is being used for Robotech (its not which is why they have two separate canons all the time)

I know I've pointed out this basic, self-evident fact before... the official Robotech material AND the RPG do, in fact, use the Japanese original source material as a primary source of information. Since the reboot of the franchise in '01, the extent of the OSM's usage has only increased.

yepp...except of course where they don't because they clash.
which is often as well....
(since "Terraformed colony world Glorie" and "Earth" are mutually exclusive for instance....)

How big are we saying that city is?
Because if we say that its just five city blocks across, then that dome looks to be around what? A mile tall if my math is right? Two?
If that city was five miles in diameter......whooo boy that's one heck of a tall dome to build on a planet that actually has atmosphere

The actual line art of the dome gives no clues to scale, but the brief appearance in the animation has a few minor scale references which suggest that it's only maybe 300-400m across at the surface level (giving it a footprint of about 8 Sacramento city blocks)... though it could potentially extend underground as well. The dome is not a perfect hemisphere either, and appears to only be about 100m tall at its apex. Scale issues are unfortunately rather endemic to Southern Cross, along with off-model animation, so it probably isn't much better than a shot in the dark though.

Considering the size of that dome compared to the Birorids and the explosions in the panel....its no where 300m across and 100m tall.
and even if it was, that's not a 'city' that's a large warehouse, stadium or maybe the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagaia_Ocean_Dome

Fairly small, by all accounts, but appropriate to a sparsely-populated world that is not entirely human-habitable as in both Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross and Robotech.

Other than the fact that that isn't the world of Robotech....
It may work for SDCSC, but Robotech is a regular Earth (post apocalypse) which has regular cities with regular populations. Unless the magic space fairy's bring all the cities for TNG of course....

[Seto Kaiba]

Considering the size of that dome compared to the Birorids and the explosions in the panel....its no where 300m across and 100m tall.

The way the scene is drawn, there's no way to say how close (in any respect) the Bioroids are to the city... the cue for size that I based my estimates on are the Southern Cross Army robots visible in silhouette in the shadows under the lip of the dome.

and even if it was, that's not a 'city' that's a large warehouse.

If you have some actual, explicit, unambiguous evidence that it is not a city, please present it.

Otherwise, we must accept the only official identification of that structure... which clearly, explicitly, and unambiguously identifies it as being a city.

Other than the fact that that isn't the world of Robotech....
It may work for SDCSC, but Robotech is a regular Earth (post apocalypse) which has regular cities with regular populations. Unless the magic space farriers bring all the cities for TNG of course....

Apart from the canon contradictions to this claim of yours in Ep37, you're assuming an AWFUL lot about the size of the population on Earth after the war based on the few shots of towns that we see. They're not particularly large, and no statement is given as to how populous they are. Not every building is a dwelling, and we certainly don't see large crowds of people on the streets either.

Earth, post-First Robotech War, is a sparsely populated planet with several significant environmental problems... like the aforementioned radiation of unknown origin.

[eliakon]

Considering the size of that dome compared to the Birorids and the explosions in the panel....its no where 300m across and 100m tall.

The way the scene is drawn, there's no way to say how close (in any respect) the Bioroids are to the city... the cue for size that I based my estimates on are the Southern Cross Army robots visible in silhouette in the shadows under the lip of the dome.

and even if it was, that's not a 'city' that's a large warehouse.

If you have some actual, explicit, unambiguous evidence that it is not a city, please present it.

Otherwise, we must accept the only official identification of that structure... which clearly, explicitly, and unambiguously identifies it as being a city.

*sigh*
Context is important.
Just cutting part of my sentence out of context to turn it into a straw man to beat up does nothing to support your position.
My statement was that 300m wide and 100m tall isn't a city, that's the size of a sports arena.
Now sure, the art book, for SDCSC can call it a city. To bad, as I pointed out, that that is NOT CONSIDERED CANON. Or do you have a specific claim by HG that the art books for SDCSC are considered to be canon for RT? Not 'the OSM' because OSM is a great weasel word. It means a lot of different things to different people, and in different context. Its wonderful that way. Its amazing how sometimes OSM means one thing and sometimes OSM means another.....and every time we try to define OSM its like nailing Jello <tm> to a wall.

Other than the fact that that isn't the world of Robotech....
It may work for SDCSC, but Robotech is a regular Earth (post apocalypse) which has regular cities with regular populations. Unless the magic space farriers bring all the cities for TNG of course....

Apart from the canon contradictions to this claim of yours in Ep37, you're assuming an AWFUL lot about the size of the population on Earth after the war based on the few shots of towns that we see. They're not particularly large, and no statement is given as to how populous they are. Not every building is a dwelling, and we certainly don't see large crowds of people on the streets either.

Earth, post-First Robotech War, is a sparsely populated planet with several significant environmental problems... like the aforementioned radiation of unknown origin.

Yes. I do explicitly say that there are more than 70,000 survivors.
I say this since it is provably impossible for the claim that there are only 70,000 survivors on the entire planet to be possible and that thus this can safely mean that the line in 37 does not mean 'the rain of death' but can (and does) mean some other event that killed people.

If you really want to argue this out. Again. We can go off and do it in another thread. This is not a thread about the population of post-rain Earth and it would be thread-jacking to try and turn it into one and I wont be party to it.

[Seto Kaiba]

My statement was that 300m wide and 100m tall isn't a city, that's the size of a sports arena.

A 300m radius circle is sufficient to encompass the footprint of at least a half-dozen city blocks (depending on which city you use as the metric for "city block" size)... and that is, of course, assuming it does not extend underground.

Now sure, the art book, for SDCSC can call it a city. To bad, as I pointed out, that that is NOT CONSIDERED CANON. Or do you have a specific claim by HG that the art books for SDCSC are considered to be canon for RT?

You're the one arguing against the official evidence, the burden of proof is yours.

Can you present proof that:
1. Harmony Gold (and Palladium) do not consider the Japanese source material a viable source of information for Robotech?[sup]1[/sup]
2. the explicitly applied identification of "city" is wrong in the production material.[sup]2[/sup]
3. there is explicit proof in Robotech that this structure cannot be a city.

If not, you don't have an evidence-driven argument.


1. You can't, because they both rather explicitly and obviously do... Kevin Siembieda's been using it for Robotech since 1st Edition.
2. Nope.

[eliakon]

My statement was that 300m wide and 100m tall isn't a city, that's the size of a sports arena.

A 300m radius circle is sufficient to encompass the footprint of at least a half-dozen city blocks (depending on which city you use as the metric for "city block" size)... and that is, of course, assuming it does not extend underground.

Now sure, the art book, for SDCSC can call it a city. To bad, as I pointed out, that that is NOT CONSIDERED CANON. Or do you have a specific claim by HG that the art books for SDCSC are considered to be canon for RT?

You're the one arguing against the official evidence, the burden of proof is yours.

I do not think you understand how this 'burden of proof' thing works

Can you present proof that:
1. Harmony Gold (and Palladium) do not consider the Japanese source material a viable source of information for Robotech?[sup]1[/sup]

HG lists what they considers canon the animation is on that list. There is nothing there that I am aware of about secondary art books. Thus no, it is not my job to prove that they are not excluded. It is your job to prove that they ARE valid since they are not on the HG list of approved canon sources

2. the explicitly applied identification of "city" is wrong in the production material.[sup]2[/sup]

Actually that is your contention of what is said. If you want to debate that you will need to provide proof of your claim. Specifically a picture of this picture, including all diagrams that go with it and all labels. This is the only way that we can then establish if this picture is indeed labeled a city, or if it is a part of a city, or indeed if that is what the translation of the kanji actually mean.

3. there is explicit proof in Robotech that this structure cannot be a city.

Um no. I do not have to prove that something cannot be a city to cast doubt on the claim that it is definitely a city. That is good because in logic it is nearly impossible to prove that something is impossible.

If not, you don't have an evidence-driven argument.

Since you have not supplied any evidence yourself either there isn't an argument here at all. Just an unsubstantiated claim that this dome is a city.



1. You can't, because they both rather explicitly and obviously do... Kevin Siembieda's been using it for Robotech since 1st Edition.
Viable source =/= Canon sorry. Just because HG and KS are willing to go to these materials and see what they were and then use those as suggestions for their own materials does not mean that all of those materials are inherently correct and that all those materials are to be considered canon.
2. Nope.[/quote]
Since there has been no submission of any proof what so ever that it is actually called a city its impossible to dispute the claim....since it has never been made. If you would care to provide your evidence though by all means.

[Seto Kaiba]

HG lists what they considers canon the animation is on that list.

False. Nowhere on the old Robotech.com website is there any reference to "canon". Their only stated policy refers solely to "story continuity", which is not the same thing.

If you intend to make an argument that the show's production materials are incorrect, you will need to present actual evidence to back up your claim. Not supposition, and certainly not "lists" that don't actually exist.

Actually that is your contention of what is said. If you want to debate that you will need to provide proof of your claim. Specifically a picture of this picture, including all diagrams that go with it and all labels. This is the only way that we can then establish if this picture is indeed labeled a city, or if it is a part of a city, or indeed if that is what the translation of the kanji actually mean.

Funnily enough, I've already given both a work and page citation AND an exact quote from the text of the caption... but hey, since you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself, why not?

Um no. I do not have to prove that something cannot be a city to cast doubt on the claim that it is definitely a city. That is good because in logic it is nearly impossible to prove that something is impossible.

You are arguing, in defiance of an explicit statement from the animation's creators, that that is not a city. You yourself posited that the Japanese source material is not valid in the event where it contradicts the Robotech version of events... so please, cite the explicit contradiction that proves this is not a city. I'll wait.

[eliakon]

HG lists what they considers canon the animation is on that list.

False. Nowhere on the old Robotech.com website is there any reference to "canon". Their only stated policy refers solely to "story continuity", which is not the same thing.

If you intend to make an argument that the show's production materials are incorrect, you will need to present actual evidence to back up your claim. Not supposition, and certainly not "lists" that don't actually exist.

So your claim is that Canon for RT is what you say it is?
Because I do not see any citation there that says that HG considers art books for SDCSC as canon for their IP.
Put simply. YOU are making an affirmative claim. To whit you are claiming that this book, which is NOT part of the animated show Robotech show, is canon material to Robotech. That claim requires proof. What proof do you have, other than 'well it was canon to the show that they took material from to make Robotech." Because we all know that they took stuff from other shows, and discarded the parts that they didn't want, changed others and turned the result into Robotech. Claiming that all of the original material is canon would be to claim that the entire Macross Saga, SDCSD, and GCM shows are also in their entirety canon to Robotech. Which is absurd on its face and provably false.
I do not have to prove a negative. Specifically I do not have to find a proof that says that 'we exclude this art book from canon' you need to find something that says that your art book IS canon.

Actually that is your contention of what is said. If you want to debate that you will need to provide proof of your claim. Specifically a picture of this picture, including all diagrams that go with it and all labels. This is the only way that we can then establish if this picture is indeed labeled a city, or if it is a part of a city, or indeed if that is what the translation of the kanji actually mean.

Funnily enough, I've already given both a work and page citation AND an exact quote from the text of the caption... but hey, since you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself, why not?

Odd.
That isn't the picture in question.
I mean yeah its similar. But its not the same one. For one thing the one in the Art book is on a mountain, not a plain....
And has a road way built into it
And has buildings visible in it.
Which tells me right there that the claim that the art book says that the dome in the animation is a city is false.
Even before we get into the question of translating the Japanese, or looking at any of the side details or anything else.

Um no. I do not have to prove that something cannot be a city to cast doubt on the claim that it is definitely a city. That is good because in logic it is nearly impossible to prove that something is impossible.

You are arguing, in defiance of an explicit statement from the animation's creators, that that is not a city. You yourself posited that the Japanese source material is not valid in the event where it contradicts the Robotech version of events... so please, cite the explicit contradiction that proves this is not a city. I'll wait.

No I am arguing that the claim of an art book from the show that Robotech was adapted from that shows that something similar was possibly called a city does not indisputably prove that this item is a city.

<edit> Perhaps we should take THIS to a separate thread too as once again this has nothing to do with Radiological Weapons.

[Seto Kaiba]

So your claim is that Canon for RT is what you say it is?

No, that would be the argument you just attempted to make... unsuccessfully too.

Because I do not see any citation there that says that HG considers art books for SDCSC as canon for their IP.
Put simply. YOU are making an affirmative claim. To whit you are claiming that this book, which is NOT part of the animated show Robotech show, is canon material to Robotech.

Incorrect again. Now you're attempting to misrepresent my argument. I am saying that Harmony Gold and Palladium have used the Japanese source material as an accurate and authoritative source of information for Robotech. Almost the entire Infopedia and much of the 2nd Edition RPG is my proof of this fact, along with the notes in the 1st Edition, Kevin Siembieda's interview with Space Station Liberty, etc.

You are arguing against that demonstrated fact, so you need to present proof... which you are apparently reluctant to do.

Please support your claims with evidence.

That isn't the picture in question.
I mean yeah its similar. But its not the same one. For one thing the one in the Art book is on a mountain, not a plain....
And has a road way built into it
And has buildings visible in it.
Which tells me right there that the claim that the art book says that the dome in the animation is a city is false.
Even before we get into the question of translating the Japanese, or looking at any of the side details or anything else.

Funny enough, this is also a false statement on your part.

We only see a portion of the dome, not enough to disprove the existence of the road or the plateau it sits on. We see mountains in the background of the shot just like in the art, and in both the art and animation we see those "crenelations" sticking up around the perimeter of the dome.

It is, based on the visual evidence, the same structure depicted in the show... which is, as I have indicated, captioned as "City on Glorie".

No I am arguing that the claim of an art book from the show that Robotech was adapted from that shows that something similar was possibly called a city does not indisputably prove that this item is a city.

You yourself said that the Japanese source material doesn't count if there's a contradiction... so where is the contradiction? There MUST be one for your premise to be true... so where is it?

[Jefffar]

We seem to have lost the thread, so I'll cut it here.