A power that requires MORE work than multiple selves.

[SittingBull]

Animal metamorphosis. You have to keep all bonuses from other powers recorded separately as they will add on to the animal stats. Changing forms changes your initiative, hit points, SDC, combat bonuses, speed, and attacks per melee.

Yes its a versatile power but as I play it more in a play by post game (where extinct animals are not allowed to be changed into, that's all that it is. If there was ever a group of powers that fell between Major and minor, this would be one of them. The only place this power is a major is in the water, where most humanoids are out of their element.

[eliakon]

Animal metamorphosis. You have to keep all bonuses from other powers recorded separately as they will add on to the animal stats. Changing forms changes your initiative, hit points, SDC, combat bonuses, speed, and attacks per melee.

Yeah, its a huge hassle power

Yes its a versatile power but as I play it more in a play by post game (where extinct animals are not allowed to be changed into, that's all that it is. If there was ever a group of powers that fell between Major and minor, this would be one of them. The only place this power is a major is in the water, where most humanoids are out of their element.

Uhhh are you seriously telling me you don't think this is one of the top tier major powers?
Seriously?
Able to turn into every living animal on earth is not major?
You can shrink as small as a mouse or as large as an elephant. You can have any advanced sense, sometimes multiple ones. You can fly, swim, run, use poison...not to mention those combat bonuses and stats you mentioned....
Its an amazingly powerful swiss-army knife power.

As a GM the reason I don't mind it (so far) is that the book keeping is all on the player. They have to figure out their stats for the animals they want to use. I just spot check behind them every so often. My way of preventing abuse is that if I catch someone playing fast and loose with this power (i.e making up stats, or using the wrong stats) first infraction they get a warning and no XP. Second time they get kicked from the game.

As I haven't had anyone abuse this power (yet) I have not had a need to ban it, or house rule it (again yet).

[SittingBull]

Yes its a versatile power but as I play it more in a play by post game (where extinct animals are not allowed to be changed into, that's all that it is. If there was ever a group of powers that fell between Major and minor, this would be one of them. The only place this power is a major is in the water, where most humanoids are out of their element.

Uhhh are you seriously telling me you don't think this is one of the top tier major powers?
Seriously?
Able to turn into every living animal on earth is not major?
You can shrink as small as a mouse or as large as an elephant. You can have any advanced sense, sometimes multiple ones. You can fly, swim, run, use poison...not to mention those combat bonuses and stats you mentioned....
Its an amazingly powerful swiss-army knife power.[/quote]

The combat bonuses are average at best but you either break even on attack per melee or lose attacks. I did mention it was versatile. Add the insult that none of, some of the scariest animals on the planet, have no horror factor.

[Genhuman]

I think I see the problem there. If all you do is measure things in terms of combat bonuses....

Personally, I agree with Eli on this one. I have always found Animal Metamorphosis, with or without limitations, to be extremely powerful and useful.

[SittingBull]

Again, I did say it was versatile.

Now if extinct species are allowed then it can also have major combat potential but you will forever be limited, in animal forms, to 2-4 attacks. The same as a starting player.

[eliakon]

Again, I did say it was versatile.

Now if extinct species are allowed then it can also have major combat potential but you will forever be limited, in animal forms, to 2-4 attacks. The same as a starting player.

Huh?
The power says nothing about removing APMs from the character or locking your APM.
In fact it just says "to determinate the average abilities of an average abilities of a general animal type, use the descriptions provided under the Animal Abilities Major Super Ability..."
That table has abilities and bonuses, stuff like bonus SDC, stat bonuses, powers like flight/glide, super senses, etc....not word one about being locked into 2 APM.
There is AFAIK nothing about losing your APM when using this power, where did you read that?

[SittingBull]

Again, I did say it was versatile.

Now if extinct species are allowed then it can also have major combat potential but you will forever be limited, in animal forms, to 2-4 attacks. The same as a starting player.

Huh?
The power says nothing about removing APMs from the character or locking your APM.
In fact it just says "to determinate the average abilities of an average abilities of a general animal type, use the descriptions provided under the Animal Abilities Major Super Ability..."
That table has abilities and bonuses, stuff like bonus SDC, stat bonuses, powers like flight/glide, super senses, etc....not word one about being locked into 2 APM.
There is AFAIK nothing about losing your APM when using this power, where did you read that?

"The character can completely transform into a particular type of animal, such as canine, feline, etc. As an animal, the person gets all the inherent abilities and defenses that animal form may offer, while retaining his own memory, IQ, SDC, hit points, and the ability to speak. All physical attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal. ..."

I don't see attacks per melee being exempt from the this and it is not specifically mentioned as being retained.

[eliakon]

Again, I did say it was versatile.

Now if extinct species are allowed then it can also have major combat potential but you will forever be limited, in animal forms, to 2-4 attacks. The same as a starting player.

Huh?
The power says nothing about removing APMs from the character or locking your APM.
In fact it just says "to determinate the average abilities of an average abilities of a general animal type, use the descriptions provided under the Animal Abilities Major Super Ability..."
That table has abilities and bonuses, stuff like bonus SDC, stat bonuses, powers like flight/glide, super senses, etc....not word one about being locked into 2 APM.
There is AFAIK nothing about losing your APM when using this power, where did you read that?

"The character can completely transform into a particular type of animal, such as canine, feline, etc. As an animal, the person gets all the inherent abilities and defenses that animal form may offer, while retaining his own memory, IQ, SDC, hit points, and the ability to speak. All physical attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal. ..."

I don't see attacks per melee being exempt from the this and it is not specifically mentioned as being retained.

APM is set by your H2H skill. Since you don't lose any of your other skills I see no reason to assume that you would lose this one.
Physical Attributes are PS, PP, PE, PB, and Spd as opposed to the Mental Attributes of IQ, ME, and MA.

[Genhuman]

You keep your memories and skills. Hand to hand is a skill. Hand to hand is the main factor in your APM.....

[Regularguy]

Yes its a versatile power but as I play it more in a play by post game (where extinct animals are not allowed to be changed into, that's all that it is. If there was ever a group of powers that fell between Major and minor, this would be one of them. The only place this power is a major is in the water, where most humanoids are out of their element.

Aside from breathing underwater and seeing in the dark and so on, if you're good enough at playing bloodhound and innocuously spying on people and simply bypassing obstacles -- flying from Point A to Point B, shrinking to escape when behind bars, and so on -- you might not even need to engage in combat.

[SittingBull]

Sometimes combat isn't the hero's choice though.

[Regularguy]

Sometimes combat isn't the hero's choice though.

Sure, but you could do worse than, say, tiger jaws plus tiger leaps plus tiger nightvision; there are Major Powers that don't even give you that much in combat, and all of it's pretty much just an afterthought compared to the swiss-army-knife uses of Metamorphosis.

(I'm reminded of the thread some years back -- so many years back, in fact, that someone was asking for options in a campaign built around hunting for bin Laden; the go-to answer? Honestly, you should probably go with Animal Metamorphosis.)

[SittingBull]

They really need to stat out animals though and give them horror factors. My character, not in Eli's game, has +7 to physical prowess that carries over to animal forms but it's a best guess call what the animals PP is and whether that +7 PP will give any bonus.

[eliakon]

They really need to stat out animals though and give them horror factors. My character, not in Eli's game, has +7 to physical prowess that carries over to animal forms but it's a best guess call what the animals PP is and whether that +7 PP will give any bonus.

You mean like....Monsters & Animals?
which has 73 pages of some hundred plus animal stats?

[SittingBull]

They really need to stat out animals though and give them horror factors. My character, not in Eli's game, has +7 to physical prowess that carries over to animal forms but it's a best guess call what the animals PP is and whether that +7 PP will give any bonus.

You mean like....Monsters & Animals?
which has 73 pages of some hundred plus animal stats?

The monsters and animals 2nd edition I am looking at, page 73 is Pixie:frost and Puck.

[Genhuman]

They really need to stat out animals though and give them horror factors. My character, not in Eli's game, has +7 to physical prowess that carries over to animal forms but it's a best guess call what the animals PP is and whether that +7 PP will give any bonus.

You mean like....Monsters & Animals?
which has 73 pages of some hundred plus animal stats?

The monsters and animals 2nd edition I am looking at, page 73 is Pixie:frost and Puck.

*Facepalm* That's why it says "monsters" AND animals.

[SittingBull]

They really need to stat out animals though and give them horror factors. My character, not in Eli's game, has +7 to physical prowess that carries over to animal forms but it's a best guess call what the animals PP is and whether that +7 PP will give any bonus.

You mean like....Monsters & Animals?
which has 73 pages of some hundred plus animal stats?

The monsters and animals 2nd edition I am looking at, page 73 is Pixie:frost and Puck.

*Facepalm* That's why it says "monsters" AND animals.

The animals in that book rarely list attributes, perhaps that's a better word than stats.

[eliakon]

They really need to stat out animals though and give them horror factors. My character, not in Eli's game, has +7 to physical prowess that carries over to animal forms but it's a best guess call what the animals PP is and whether that +7 PP will give any bonus.

You mean like....Monsters & Animals?
which has 73 pages of some hundred plus animal stats?

The monsters and animals 2nd edition I am looking at, page 73 is Pixie:frost and Puck.

*Facepalm* That's why it says "monsters" AND animals.

The animals in that book rarely list attributes, perhaps that's a better word than stats.

Reading page 167-170 we find out exactly what the book means by 'animal statistics' (it even helpfully says this on page 170)
This leads to one of two conclusions
either
1) those are the only statistics that change and all others stay the same
or
2) game wise it doesn't matter because statistically there is no difference for example between a PP 8 a PP 10 and a PP 14 and that for issues where it does matter (like PS) the GM will be working that out anyway (a humming bird and a robin may both have PA 1, but are going to carry different amounts still....)
for needing additional stats remember that it does say to use the animal powers as a guideline for helping.....

[SittingBull]

The animals in that book rarely list attributes, perhaps that's a better word than stats.[/quote]
Reading page 167-170 we find out exactly what the book means by 'animal statistics' (it even helpfully says this on page 170)
This leads to one of two conclusions
either
1) those are the only statistics that change and all others stay the same
or
2) game wise it doesn't matter because statistically there is no difference for example between a PP 8 a PP 10 and a PP 14 and that for issues where it does matter (like PS) the GM will be working that out anyway (a humming bird and a robin may both have PA 1, but are going to carry different amounts still....)
for needing additional stats remember that it does say to use the animal powers as a guideline for helping.....[/quote]

1) Attacks per melee is included in that list. However, the power does say "attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal".

2) PS matters for all pushing, pulling, and lifting. For my character, PP also matters as the character has a +7 to the attribute and that could make a difference. Wouldn't be a problem is extraordinary PP had a minimum attribute listed under the power description.

[eliakon]

The animals in that book rarely list attributes, perhaps that's a better word than stats.

Reading page 167-170 we find out exactly what the book means by 'animal statistics' (it even helpfully says this on page 170)
This leads to one of two conclusions
either
1) those are the only statistics that change and all others stay the same
or
2) game wise it doesn't matter because statistically there is no difference for example between a PP 8 a PP 10 and a PP 14 and that for issues where it does matter (like PS) the GM will be working that out anyway (a humming bird and a robin may both have PA 1, but are going to carry different amounts still....)
for needing additional stats remember that it does say to use the animal powers as a guideline for helping.....

1) Attacks per melee is included in that list. However, the power does say "attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal".

2) PS matters for all pushing, pulling, and lifting. For my character, PP also matters as the character has a +7 to the attribute and that could make a difference. Wouldn't be a problem is extraordinary PP had a minimum attribute listed under the power description.

Yes, the animal doesn't have any skills and thus no H2H skill.

For extraordinary PP now we are coming down on both sides of the fence....do you have the animal stats (so no ex-pp because that's your stat) or do you have your stats (so you get the +7). Just saying that it seems that it should be one way or the other not both....

For PS yes, it does matter....that would be why GMs were invented to make calls like "how much can my horse pull" or "what size bird to I need to be to pick up this coconut"

[SittingBull]

The animals in that book rarely list attributes, perhaps that's a better word than stats.

Reading page 167-170 we find out exactly what the book means by 'animal statistics' (it even helpfully says this on page 170)
This leads to one of two conclusions
either
1) those are the only statistics that change and all others stay the same
or
2) game wise it doesn't matter because statistically there is no difference for example between a PP 8 a PP 10 and a PP 14 and that for issues where it does matter (like PS) the GM will be working that out anyway (a humming bird and a robin may both have PA 1, but are going to carry different amounts still....)
for needing additional stats remember that it does say to use the animal powers as a guideline for helping.....

1) Attacks per melee is included in that list. However, the power does say "attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal".

2) PS matters for all pushing, pulling, and lifting. For my character, PP also matters as the character has a +7 to the attribute and that could make a difference. Wouldn't be a problem is extraordinary PP had a minimum attribute listed under the power description.

Yes, the animal doesn't have any skills and thus no H2H skill.

For extraordinary PP now we are coming down on both sides of the fence....do you have the animal stats (so no ex-pp because that's your stat) or do you have your stats (so you get the +7). Just saying that it seems that it should be one way or the other not both....

For PS yes, it does matter....that would be why GMs were invented to make calls like "how much can my horse pull" or "what size bird to I need to be to pick up this coconut"

The bonus PP comes from a power that is active in any form but your saying it may switch off when in an animal form.

[eliakon]

The animals in that book rarely list attributes, perhaps that's a better word than stats.

Reading page 167-170 we find out exactly what the book means by 'animal statistics' (it even helpfully says this on page 170)
This leads to one of two conclusions
either
1) those are the only statistics that change and all others stay the same
or
2) game wise it doesn't matter because statistically there is no difference for example between a PP 8 a PP 10 and a PP 14 and that for issues where it does matter (like PS) the GM will be working that out anyway (a humming bird and a robin may both have PA 1, but are going to carry different amounts still....)
for needing additional stats remember that it does say to use the animal powers as a guideline for helping.....

1) Attacks per melee is included in that list. However, the power does say "attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal".

2) PS matters for all pushing, pulling, and lifting. For my character, PP also matters as the character has a +7 to the attribute and that could make a difference. Wouldn't be a problem is extraordinary PP had a minimum attribute listed under the power description.

Yes, the animal doesn't have any skills and thus no H2H skill.

For extraordinary PP now we are coming down on both sides of the fence....do you have the animal stats (so no ex-pp because that's your stat) or do you have your stats (so you get the +7). Just saying that it seems that it should be one way or the other not both....

For PS yes, it does matter....that would be why GMs were invented to make calls like "how much can my horse pull" or "what size bird to I need to be to pick up this coconut"

The bonus PP comes from a power that is active in any form but your saying it may switch off when in an animal form.

If we are saying that the Animal Metamorphosis power says that you have the physical attributes of that animal then I can not see why you would have assumed that you would lose your personal APM from your hand to hand skill because that would change your attributes, but some how keep other things that change those attributes. Especially since the second is something that explicitly is providing something that is not in line with 'having the physical attributes of the animal'.......
I would say that it is a GMs call if you can stack any other power on top of AM honestly. I would not normally have a problem with it, but technically RAW its not allowed.

[SittingBull]

The animals in that book rarely list attributes, perhaps that's a better word than stats.

Reading page 167-170 we find out exactly what the book means by 'animal statistics' (it even helpfully says this on page 170)
This leads to one of two conclusions
either
1) those are the only statistics that change and all others stay the same
or
2) game wise it doesn't matter because statistically there is no difference for example between a PP 8 a PP 10 and a PP 14 and that for issues where it does matter (like PS) the GM will be working that out anyway (a humming bird and a robin may both have PA 1, but are going to carry different amounts still....)
for needing additional stats remember that it does say to use the animal powers as a guideline for helping.....

1) Attacks per melee is included in that list. However, the power does say "attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal".

2) PS matters for all pushing, pulling, and lifting. For my character, PP also matters as the character has a +7 to the attribute and that could make a difference. Wouldn't be a problem is extraordinary PP had a minimum attribute listed under the power description.

Yes, the animal doesn't have any skills and thus no H2H skill.

For extraordinary PP now we are coming down on both sides of the fence....do you have the animal stats (so no ex-pp because that's your stat) or do you have your stats (so you get the +7). Just saying that it seems that it should be one way or the other not both....

For PS yes, it does matter....that would be why GMs were invented to make calls like "how much can my horse pull" or "what size bird to I need to be to pick up this coconut"

The bonus PP comes from a power that is active in any form but your saying it may switch off when in an animal form.

If we are saying that the Animal Metamorphosis power says that you have the physical attributes of that animal then I can not see why you would have assumed that you would lose your personal APM from your hand to hand skill because that would change your attributes, but some how keep other things that change those attributes. Especially since the second is something that explicitly is providing something that is not in line with 'having the physical attributes of the animal'.......
I would say that it is a GMs call if you can stack any other power on top of AM honestly. I would not normally have a problem with it, but technically RAW its not allowed.

So no other powers would work in animal forms? Or only the parts of powers that that affect attributes?

If animals have bonuses to strike, dodge, etc, wouldn't HTH bonuses carry over then?

[eliakon]

So no other powers would work in animal forms? Or only the parts of powers that that affect attributes?

RAW any power that alters your physical attributes may or may not work.
I say may or may not, because the power doesn't say "you mimic the physical stats exactly" it says "All physical attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal." Which is why even if you had the exact stats of a typical version of every animal in existence (an impossibility in and of itself) I don't think you would use them exactly.
I would say that the GM and the Player are supposed to figure out a compromise position that works. I.e. if you become a sloth then your PP is going to go down. If you become a blue whale that PS is going up (and you are probably going to lift on the Supernatural chart...).
If one goes down the road that starts with 'you become an exact duplicate of the animals with no variation' then you already start to have problems (how can you keep your HP, if your PE changes? How do we figure the proper variation for the animal spreads?....I am not running each stat through a probability matrix every time the player wants to shape shift!) a road of problems that is easily solved by simply assuming that the 'change up or down' is one of 'scale to players stats to the new body' and not and absolute change. Otherwise as I said we have to discard all other powers with physical effects (and start running into selectively discarding parts of skills) which seems contrary to the intended function.

[SittingBull]

So no other powers would work in animal forms? Or only the parts of powers that that affect attributes?

RAW any power that alters your physical attributes may or may not work.
I say may or may not, because the power doesn't say "you mimic the physical stats exactly" it says "All physical attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal." Which is why even if you had the exact stats of a typical version of every animal in existence (an impossibility in and of itself) I don't think you would use them exactly.
I would say that the GM and the Player are supposed to figure out a compromise position that works. I.e. if you become a sloth then your PP is going to go down. If you become a blue whale that PS is going up (and you are probably going to lift on the Supernatural chart...).
If one goes down the road that starts with 'you become an exact duplicate of the animals with no variation' then you already start to have problems (how can you keep your HP, if your PE changes? How do we figure the proper variation for the animal spreads?....I am not running each stat through a probability matrix every time the player wants to shape shift!) a road of problems that is easily solved by simply assuming that the 'change up or down' is one of 'scale to players stats to the new body' and not and absolute change. Otherwise as I said we have to discard all other powers with physical effects (and start running into selectively discarding parts of skills) which seems contrary to the intended function.

I didnt get all of that, and edited the last post before I saw your reply.

[eliakon]

So no other powers would work in animal forms? Or only the parts of powers that that affect attributes?

RAW any power that alters your physical attributes may or may not work.
I say may or may not, because the power doesn't say "you mimic the physical stats exactly" it says "All physical attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal." Which is why even if you had the exact stats of a typical version of every animal in existence (an impossibility in and of itself) I don't think you would use them exactly.
I would say that the GM and the Player are supposed to figure out a compromise position that works. I.e. if you become a sloth then your PP is going to go down. If you become a blue whale that PS is going up (and you are probably going to lift on the Supernatural chart...).
If one goes down the road that starts with 'you become an exact duplicate of the animals with no variation' then you already start to have problems (how can you keep your HP, if your PE changes? How do we figure the proper variation for the animal spreads?....I am not running each stat through a probability matrix every time the player wants to shape shift!) a road of problems that is easily solved by simply assuming that the 'change up or down' is one of 'scale to players stats to the new body' and not and absolute change. Otherwise as I said we have to discard all other powers with physical effects (and start running into selectively discarding parts of skills) which seems contrary to the intended function.

I didnt get all of that, and edited the last post before I saw your reply.

What I am saying is that I think that the power is intended to have the persons stats scale to their new body. If you were a fast human, now your a fast cheetah if you were a slow human your slow cheetah....these being for a cheetah mind you. Same with a gorilla or a whale or a what-ever-you-turn-in-to. You would be a fast or slow one, strong or weak one, scaled off of what your stats were as a human.
As for the exact effects its up to the GM for individual games to figure out what exactly works best for their specific game.

Otherwise it quickly gets into the realm of cherry picking which physical things to keep and which to overwrite.

[SittingBull]

So no other powers would work in animal forms? Or only the parts of powers that that affect attributes?

RAW any power that alters your physical attributes may or may not work.
I say may or may not, because the power doesn't say "you mimic the physical stats exactly" it says "All physical attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal." Which is why even if you had the exact stats of a typical version of every animal in existence (an impossibility in and of itself) I don't think you would use them exactly.
I would say that the GM and the Player are supposed to figure out a compromise position that works. I.e. if you become a sloth then your PP is going to go down. If you become a blue whale that PS is going up (and you are probably going to lift on the Supernatural chart...).
If one goes down the road that starts with 'you become an exact duplicate of the animals with no variation' then you already start to have problems (how can you keep your HP, if your PE changes? How do we figure the proper variation for the animal spreads?....I am not running each stat through a probability matrix every time the player wants to shape shift!) a road of problems that is easily solved by simply assuming that the 'change up or down' is one of 'scale to players stats to the new body' and not and absolute change. Otherwise as I said we have to discard all other powers with physical effects (and start running into selectively discarding parts of skills) which seems contrary to the intended function.

I didnt get all of that, and edited the last post before I saw your reply.

What I am saying is that I think that the power is intended to have the persons stats scale to their new body. If you were a fast human, now your a fast cheetah if you were a slow human your slow cheetah....these being for a cheetah mind you. Same with a gorilla or a whale or a what-ever-you-turn-in-to. You would be a fast or slow one, strong or weak one, scaled off of what your stats were as a human.
As for the exact effects its up to the GM for individual games to figure out what exactly works best for their specific game.

Otherwise it quickly gets into the realm of cherry picking which physical things to keep and which to overwrite.

That almost means, for human sized animals, keep your stats; seems like.

[eliakon]

So no other powers would work in animal forms? Or only the parts of powers that that affect attributes?

RAW any power that alters your physical attributes may or may not work.
I say may or may not, because the power doesn't say "you mimic the physical stats exactly" it says "All physical attributes change, up or down, as best fits the animal." Which is why even if you had the exact stats of a typical version of every animal in existence (an impossibility in and of itself) I don't think you would use them exactly.
I would say that the GM and the Player are supposed to figure out a compromise position that works. I.e. if you become a sloth then your PP is going to go down. If you become a blue whale that PS is going up (and you are probably going to lift on the Supernatural chart...).
If one goes down the road that starts with 'you become an exact duplicate of the animals with no variation' then you already start to have problems (how can you keep your HP, if your PE changes? How do we figure the proper variation for the animal spreads?....I am not running each stat through a probability matrix every time the player wants to shape shift!) a road of problems that is easily solved by simply assuming that the 'change up or down' is one of 'scale to players stats to the new body' and not and absolute change. Otherwise as I said we have to discard all other powers with physical effects (and start running into selectively discarding parts of skills) which seems contrary to the intended function.

I didnt get all of that, and edited the last post before I saw your reply.

What I am saying is that I think that the power is intended to have the persons stats scale to their new body. If you were a fast human, now your a fast cheetah if you were a slow human your slow cheetah....these being for a cheetah mind you. Same with a gorilla or a whale or a what-ever-you-turn-in-to. You would be a fast or slow one, strong or weak one, scaled off of what your stats were as a human.
As for the exact effects its up to the GM for individual games to figure out what exactly works best for their specific game.

Otherwise it quickly gets into the realm of cherry picking which physical things to keep and which to overwrite.

That almost means, for human sized animals, keep your stats; seems like.

with in reason. A gorilla is going to get some PS, probably boosted to extraordinary a seal is going to probably be resistant to cold...that sort of thing. But yeah basically more or less.

[Razorwing]

Another good source of information on various animals is the mutant animal section... not to mention the After the Bomb. It will list many of the attribute bonuses that various animals are likely to have... which you can add to a base average to get a rough idea of where an animal's attributes would be. It also lists the average size level of the base animal, which when combined with the size level chart can further modify these attributes.

For Example:

Let's say you want to transform into a small song bird... say a Robin.
The base attribute bonuses would increase MA, PB and SPD.
The small size of the bird (Size Level 2) would affect IQ (for the normal animal, not the character with this power), PS, PE and SPD. Now, let's assume that animals will have a base of 9 across the board (yes, even intelligence... though this would be animals intelligence, not human; and represents the animal's ability to find the things it needs and how to retrieve them without injuring itself or becoming prey to something bigger). We then add bonuses and subtract penalties from these bases... add in bonuses for powers and abilities such animals may have (listed under Mutant Animal Powers)... and you get a rough idea of what such an animal's stats may be like. Next add any additional bonuses your character may have from other powers (that can be used while morphed) and you can see roughly where such an animal might be.

This is one power where a note book to figure out how the character is likely to perform as a given animal is a good idea. Of course, once combat begins, such a character is likely to take on a form better suited for combat.

As for Extinct animals, Transdimensional TMNT does have information on the bonuses such animals may have had... and could make for some surprising encounters. One question though... does the no transforming into extinct animals apply to those that have gone extinct in the last few centuries (like the Tasmanian Wolf and Passenger Pigeon) or just the ones that have been extinct for thousands of years or longer (Saber tooth Tigers, Mammoths, Dinosaurs and such)? What of animals that are currently on the verge of extinction... like Tigers... if they go extinct during the character's lifetime, does he loose the ability to morph into them when they die out... or does he retain the ability since they were alive during his lifetime?

[SittingBull]

Another good source of information on various animals is the mutant animal section... not to mention the After the Bomb. It will list many of the attribute bonuses that various animals are likely to have... which you can add to a base average to get a rough idea of where an animal's attributes would be. It also lists the average size level of the base animal, which when combined with the size level chart can further modify these attributes.

For Example:

Let's say you want to transform into a small song bird... say a Robin.
The base attribute bonuses would increase MA, PB and SPD.
The small size of the bird (Size Level 2) would affect IQ (for the normal animal, not the character with this power), PS, PE and SPD. Now, let's assume that animals will have a base of 9 across the board (yes, even intelligence... though this would be animals intelligence, not human; and represents the animal's ability to find the things it needs and how to retrieve them without injuring itself or becoming prey to something bigger). We then add bonuses and subtract penalties from these bases... add in bonuses for powers and abilities such animals may have (listed under Mutant Animal Powers)... and you get a rough idea of what such an animal's stats may be like. Next add any additional bonuses your character may have from other powers (that can be used while morphed) and you can see roughly where such an animal might be.

This is one power where a note book to figure out how the character is likely to perform as a given animal is a good idea. Of course, once combat begins, such a character is likely to take on a form better suited for combat.

As for Extinct animals, Transdimensional TMNT does have information on the bonuses such animals may have had... and could make for some surprising encounters. One question though... does the no transforming into extinct animals apply to those that have gone extinct in the last few centuries (like the Tasmanian Wolf and Passenger Pigeon) or just the ones that have been extinct for thousands of years or longer (Saber tooth Tigers, Mammoths, Dinosaurs and such)? What of animals that are currently on the verge of extinction... like Tigers... if they go extinct during the character's lifetime, does he loose the ability to morph into them when they die out... or does he retain the ability since they were alive during his lifetime?

Nice idea on the size chart. The GM said nothing outside of the human races memory, so thousands of years extinct.

[eliakon]

I am fairly free flowing usually....
but if a player starts wanting special animals for special abilities I start saying "and you know this how?"
If they have taken professional zoology or the like, then no problem. Otherwise sorry no. I would even let someone with enough expertise in extinct animals know enough to reconstruct them.....(its a comic book after all...and that level of skill lets you put Dr. or Professor in your hero name which is a win anyway)

[Razorwing]

Another Question I'd like to ask... what of Aliens with this power... it would seem a little odd that they can only transform into animals native to Earth when they aren't native to the planet. Is it just coincidence that their planet has the exact same animals as Earth? Or are Aliens not allowed to take this power?

[eliakon]

Another Question I'd like to ask... what of Aliens with this power... it would seem a little odd that they can only transform into animals native to Earth when they aren't native to the planet. Is it just coincidence that their planet has the exact same animals as Earth? Or are Aliens not allowed to take this power?

Easy. They turn into their worlds equivalents.
It would be up to the GM to decide if you can 'learn' new animals or you are limited to the animals of your source bio-sphere.

[Razorwing]

And if they still have equivalents to animals that are extinct on Earth... like some Reptilian Aliens still having Dinosaur-like animals walking their world?

[eliakon]

And if they still have equivalents to animals that are extinct on Earth... like some Reptilian Aliens still having Dinosaur-like animals walking their world?

Then they can turn into those animals. Flip side is that they can't turn into a house cat because that isn't native to their world.

Like I said, you turn into the animals of your world/bio-sphere.

[Damian Magecraft]

"what size bird to I need to be to pick up this coconut"

A swallow.

[Razorwing]

And if they still have equivalents to animals that are extinct on Earth... like some Reptilian Aliens still having Dinosaur-like animals walking their world?

Then they can turn into those animals. Flip side is that they can't turn into a house cat because that isn't native to their world.

Like I said, you turn into the animals of your world/bio-sphere.

You sure they don't have the equivalent of a house cat?

My point is... players should be allowed to be creative with their powers. Yes... many say it is too much of a headache for GMs... adding much more book keeping to their job, but why does the book keeping need to be the GM's job? If a player can come up with reasonable stats and powers of the form (perhaps with the reasonable limitation that any other powers the character may have are unavailable while transformed... thus preventing huge power combinations)... and a GM approves... then I say go for it!

Can it unbalance a fight? Yes... but then so can anything if you aren't careful. So Jurassic Lad changes into a 40 ft Tyranosaurus in the middle of a fight... chances are he is either going to draw a lot of fire from the opponents (he is literally the "biggest" threat) or send them running down into the subway where a 10 lizard can't follow (thus limiting him to forms that can fit in limited spaces). And then there is Fantasia who uses this power to take on the form of hybrid creatures from fantasy... unicorns, pegasi, gryphons... true, she can't mimic any of the magical powers such creatures would have... but then she doesn't need to (a unicorn doesn't need magic to run as swift as horse or to stab someone with its horn). She can not change into a Dragon however as they are a sentient species... not an animal species. The players of these types of characters shouldn't be punished for being creative as long as they are willing to do the book keeping and get their GMs permission for any new animals they wish to transform into.

True... as written, Animal Metamorphosis can't usually do this... but that was originally meant to keep this power balanced with other powers at the time it was written. Since then, there has been a dramatic increase in power levels of a lot of major powers... and sticking to such a rigid interpretation will often mean players will ignore powers they see are weak in favor of powers that appear powerful. If a player can make a power feel powerful by creative thinking (and is willing to do the book keeping), it should be encouraged. But then I do expect a lot of those here to disagree (and they are free to do so).

[eliakon]

And if they still have equivalents to animals that are extinct on Earth... like some Reptilian Aliens still having Dinosaur-like animals walking their world?

Then they can turn into those animals. Flip side is that they can't turn into a house cat because that isn't native to their world.

Like I said, you turn into the animals of your world/bio-sphere.

You sure they don't have the equivalent of a house cat?

They might. But they don't have house cats. it would be the equivalent of it, and probably would not look exactly like a house cat. Being a reptile alien its probably going to be some sort of small reptile.

My point is... players should be allowed to be creative with their powers. Yes... many say it is too much of a headache for GMs... adding much more book keeping to their job, but why does the book keeping need to be the GM's job? If a player can come up with reasonable stats and powers of the form (perhaps with the reasonable limitation that any other powers the character may have are unavailable while transformed... thus preventing huge power combinations)... and a GM approves... then I say go for it!

So....what I have been saying all along?

Can it unbalance a fight? Yes... but then so can anything if you aren't careful. So Jurassic Lad changes into a 40 ft Tyranosaurus in the middle of a fight... chances are he is either going to draw a lot of fire from the opponents (he is literally the "biggest" threat) or send them running down into the subway where a 10 lizard can't follow (thus limiting him to forms that can fit in limited spaces). And then there is Fantasia who uses this power to take on the form of hybrid creatures from fantasy... unicorns, pegasi, gryphons... true, she can't mimic any of the magical powers such creatures would have... but then she doesn't need to (a unicorn doesn't need magic to run as swift as horse or to stab someone with its horn). She can not change into a Dragon however as they are a sentient species... not an animal species. The players of these types of characters shouldn't be punished for being creative as long as they are willing to do the book keeping and get their GMs permission for any new animals they wish to transform into.

Yep, what I have been saying.

True... as written, Animal Metamorphosis can't usually do this... but that was originally meant to keep this power balanced with other powers at the time it was written. Since then, there has been a dramatic increase in power levels of a lot of major powers... and sticking to such a rigid interpretation will often mean players will ignore powers they see are weak in favor of powers that appear powerful. If a player can make a power feel powerful by creative thinking (and is willing to do the book keeping), it should be encouraged. But then I do expect a lot of those here to disagree (and they are free to do so).

I am not saying that they can't. In point of fact this is exactly what I said should be allowed.
What I said should NOT be allowed is letting someone turn into all of Earths animals, and then all the animals of Rifts Earth because 'they are animals right?' Oh, and dinosaurs, and unicorns, and gryphons, and anything else from anywhere, ever.

The part that I reject firmly is the ludicrous notion that Animal Metamorphosis is in ANY way, shape or form 'weak' or that it needs to be 'improved' to be made 'competitive'. It is, as written, one of the more powerful abilities out there. There is a LOT more to the game than how munch damage you do in combat. (all though as written the power all ready allows for a lot of nasty combat options)
Infravision, Sonar, Ultravision, Water breathing, Flight, Shrinking, Poison, Stealth, Telescopic Vision, Climbing, Super Strength, Chemical Attacks......all in one power? And this is 'weak and needs to be improved?' Seriously? The very statement of "sticking to such a rigid interpretation" when discussing a power is fairly prejudicial already. Its implying that following the rules as written is some how wrong and unfair to the player and that the player should have a right to get more out of a power than is actually written just because they want it. To which I say NO. If the GM and the Player want to add more power to their game sure....but that's on them. There is no reason to imply that playing the game as written is some how 'lesser' or restricting peoples creativity. It just means that you have to follow the rules. If a player doesn't want to follow the rules, then a rule based game is probably not the best medium for them to express their creativity.

[SittingBull]

And if they still have equivalents to animals that are extinct on Earth... like some Reptilian Aliens still having Dinosaur-like animals walking their world?

Then they can turn into those animals. Flip side is that they can't turn into a house cat because that isn't native to their world.

Like I said, you turn into the animals of your world/bio-sphere.

You sure they don't have the equivalent of a house cat?

They might. But they don't have house cats. it would be the equivalent of it, and probably would not look exactly like a house cat. Being a reptile alien its probably going to be some sort of small reptile.

My point is... players should be allowed to be creative with their powers. Yes... many say it is too much of a headache for GMs... adding much more book keeping to their job, but why does the book keeping need to be the GM's job? If a player can come up with reasonable stats and powers of the form (perhaps with the reasonable limitation that any other powers the character may have are unavailable while transformed... thus preventing huge power combinations)... and a GM approves... then I say go for it!

So....what I have been saying all along?

Can it unbalance a fight? Yes... but then so can anything if you aren't careful. So Jurassic Lad changes into a 40 ft Tyranosaurus in the middle of a fight... chances are he is either going to draw a lot of fire from the opponents (he is literally the "biggest" threat) or send them running down into the subway where a 10 lizard can't follow (thus limiting him to forms that can fit in limited spaces). And then there is Fantasia who uses this power to take on the form of hybrid creatures from fantasy... unicorns, pegasi, gryphons... true, she can't mimic any of the magical powers such creatures would have... but then she doesn't need to (a unicorn doesn't need magic to run as swift as horse or to stab someone with its horn). She can not change into a Dragon however as they are a sentient species... not an animal species. The players of these types of characters shouldn't be punished for being creative as long as they are willing to do the book keeping and get their GMs permission for any new animals they wish to transform into.

Yep, what I have been saying.

True... as written, Animal Metamorphosis can't usually do this... but that was originally meant to keep this power balanced with other powers at the time it was written. Since then, there has been a dramatic increase in power levels of a lot of major powers... and sticking to such a rigid interpretation will often mean players will ignore powers they see are weak in favor of powers that appear powerful. If a player can make a power feel powerful by creative thinking (and is willing to do the book keeping), it should be encouraged. But then I do expect a lot of those here to disagree (and they are free to do so).

I am not saying that they can't. In point of fact this is exactly what I said should be allowed.
What I said should NOT be allowed is letting someone turn into all of Earths animals, and then all the animals of Rifts Earth because 'they are animals right?' Oh, and dinosaurs, and unicorns, and gryphons, and anything else from anywhere, ever.

The part that I reject firmly is the ludicrous notion that Animal Metamorphosis is in ANY way, shape or form 'weak' or that it needs to be 'improved' to be made 'competitive'. It is, as written, one of the more powerful abilities out there. There is a LOT more to the game than how munch damage you do in combat. (all though as written the power all ready allows for a lot of nasty combat options)
Infravision, Sonar, Ultravision, Water breathing, Flight, Shrinking, Poison, Stealth, Telescopic Vision, Climbing, Super Strength, Chemical Attacks......all in one power? And this is 'weak and needs to be improved?' Seriously? The very statement of "sticking to such a rigid interpretation" when discussing a power is fairly prejudicial already. Its implying that following the rules as written is some how wrong and unfair to the player and that the player should have a right to get more out of a power than is actually written just because they want it. To which I say NO. If the GM and the Player want to add more power to their game sure....but that's on them. There is no reason to imply that playing the game as written is some how 'lesser' or restricting peoples creativity. It just means that you have to follow the rules. If a player doesn't want to follow the rules, then a rule based game is probably not the best medium for them to express their creativity.

Super strength as you are interpreting it.

[Regularguy]

Super strength as you are interpreting it

Nope, rules as written; the Animal Metamorphosis power specifically says to guide off what's listed in the Animal Abilities entries, and "Bear" flatly includes superhuman strength.

[SittingBull]

Don't think my gm, not Eli, wont go that way but I am not worried about it. Besides the character's strength is already in the superhuman strength range.

[eliakon]

Don't think my gm, not Eli, wont go that way but I am not worried about it. Besides the character's strength is already in the superhuman strength range.

*shrug* GM house rules are always going to be an issue. But they don't change the fact that when discussing the power AS WRITTEN it is incredibly diverse and powerful.
And honestly I don't think that a claim that "well the GM nerfed the power, so it needs a buff" has much weight......

[SittingBull]

It does for the situation I was discussing it about, the game I am playing this character in, but thank you.

Under animal abilities bird: is says they get glide but not fly? Is this to limit their flight speed or a typo?

[eliakon]

It does for the situation I was discussing it about, the game I am playing this character in, but thank you.

I am not sure then what the end state of this discussion is supposed to be? If your GM has changed the power that radically that it has been totally house ruled away from what has been written, then no discussion about what the power does or does not allow as written is really relevant to that game....since that is not the power in play....

Under animal abilities bird: is says they get glide but not fly? Is this to limit their flight speed or a typo?

The person with animal abilities gets the glide ability yes it is on page 232 of HU 2nd edition. If you actually turn into a bird instead of just are channeling their powers then I would grant you full winged flight as per the animal you turned into myself.

[SittingBull]

It does for the situation I was discussing it about, the game I am playing this character in, but thank you.

I am not sure then what the end state of this discussion is supposed to be? If your GM has changed the power that radically that it has been totally house ruled away from what has been written, then no discussion about what the power does or does not allow as written is really relevant to that game....since that is not the power in play....

Under animal abilities bird: is says they get glide but not fly? Is this to limit their flight speed or a typo?

The person with animal abilities gets the glide ability yes it is on page 232 of HU 2nd edition. If you actually turn into a bird instead of just are channeling their powers then I would grant you full winged flight as per the animal you turned into myself.

I am trying to help the GM with the power. So it is smoother to use during game play.

I see your point on the gliding.