How long do you need to wear armor to become "trained" in it

[dragonfett]

Re-reading a thread talking about mages and armor and it referenced a passage from the RUE where it talks about how mages are not trained to wear armor and take additional penalties for wearing armor.

My question is this: For how long (i.e. how many levels or how many weeks) would someone who is not trained to wear armor have to wear armor to be considered "trained" in wearing it?

[Alrik Vas]

I think that's just a nonsensical statement to talk mages out of wearing armor.

Not that training can't make an enormous difference, but there is no armor proficiency in this game anyway.

[eliakon]

Re-reading a thread talking about mages and armor and it referenced a passage from the RUE where it talks about how mages are not trained to wear armor and take additional penalties for wearing armor.

My question is this: For how long (i.e. how many levels or how many weeks) would someone who is not trained to wear armor have to wear armor to be considered "trained" in wearing it?

Well in the real world militaries tend to have recruits wear body armor for a few weeks to 'get used to it'
I can say that personally after about a month or so of wearing it everywhere constantly every day I was pretty used to it and wasn't overly hampered by it (other than its inherent bulk i.e. its movement penalties and weight)
I would say as a house rule that if your training up someone with no armor experience six weeks minus IQ+PE days is reasonably fair as a house rule. YMMV.

[glitterboy2098]

what are the "additonal penalties" given? are they penalties to physical stuff (due to being unfamiliar with how the armor feels and restricts movement) or are they the penalties to spellcasting? (which is supposed to be due to the materials of the armor)

[eliakon]

what are the "additonal penalties" given? are they penalties to physical stuff (due to being unfamiliar with how the armor feels and restricts movement) or are they the penalties to spellcasting? (which is supposed to be due to the materials of the armor)

Magic 8-Ball says "Answer Hazy"
Basically its more or less a "they are not familiar with it...so they don't use it. I think at one time they planned to try and implement the old armor system from PF1, but that sort of fizzled so its now....'stuff'

[dragonfett]

what are the "additonal penalties" given? are they penalties to physical stuff (due to being unfamiliar with how the armor feels and restricts movement) or are they the penalties to spellcasting? (which is supposed to be due to the materials of the armor)

Mages suffer an additional -5% penalty to physical skills.

[flatline]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours of use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

[Nightmask]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours or use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

That does make sense, since someone shouldn't remain at 'just fell off the turnip truck' level of how to use something after weeks or months let alone years of using it on even a semi-regular basis and unless you're someone who never needs armor (and even the average MDC creature still tends to wear armor) you ought to be wearing it on a regular basis and used to it after some point.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours of use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

The problem is that your 'assumption' is in direct confrontation from very plainly stated fact to the contrary, when it comes to mages. If the book says they're not proficient in it's use, assuming they are, is.. well... There's lots of things that it could be called, but it doesn't seem to be correct as the writers/creators intended. As.. they've told us directly the opposite.

[flatline]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours of use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

The problem is that your 'assumption' is in direct confrontation from very plainly stated fact to the contrary, when it comes to mages. If the book says they're not proficient in it's use, assuming they are, is.. well... There's lots of things that it could be called, but it doesn't seem to be correct as the writers/creators intended. As.. they've told us directly the opposite.

I don't understand why you see that as a problem. The writers aren't part of my game, they merely provide the inspiration for it. I'll use whatever rules as I see fit without any worry that I might not be playing the game "as the writer/creators intended".

I promise, though, that if I ever play in the writer's game, I'll follow his rules. Rumour has it, however, that even he doesn't play the game as written.

--flatline

[dragonfett]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours of use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

The problem is that your 'assumption' is in direct confrontation from very plainly stated fact to the contrary, when it comes to mages. If the book says they're not proficient in it's use, assuming they are, is.. well... There's lots of things that it could be called, but it doesn't seem to be correct as the writers/creators intended. As.. they've told us directly the opposite.

So, just how long would someone not proficient in wearing armor (such as mages) need to wear it before they areconsidered proficient in wearing armor?

[eliakon]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours of use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

The problem is that your 'assumption' is in direct confrontation from very plainly stated fact to the contrary, when it comes to mages. If the book says they're not proficient in it's use, assuming they are, is.. well... There's lots of things that it could be called, but it doesn't seem to be correct as the writers/creators intended. As.. they've told us directly the opposite.

So, just how long would someone not proficient in wearing armor (such as mages) need to wear it before they areconsidered proficient in wearing armor?

That was why I was trying to spitball out something earlier based on my personal experience with learning to use armor (i.e. going from a civilian who was not proficient in wearing armor to a soldier who was)
So assuming that it is possible to 'train off' the penalty
and assuming that the amount of time is relevant (hasn't/can't buy off before play, you need to know how long it will take to train up some militia, you took a wrong turn at Caer Itom and need to learn how this 'body armor' stuff works...what ever)
Then my experience suggests that it can be done in about1-2 months of intensive "wear this everywhere you go" immersion training. Multiply the times if you wear it less (probably a higher multiple than just the time spent since the nature of people is to avoid inconvenience so the point of immersion is to force you to cope with the stuff you would avoid if you could)

Long story short though its probably going to have to come down to the GM eyeballing something that they feel works (unless your really motivated and want to do some research on real world training courses and stuff.....way more work than I want to do personally.)

[Pepsi Jedi]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours of use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

The problem is that your 'assumption' is in direct confrontation from very plainly stated fact to the contrary, when it comes to mages. If the book says they're not proficient in it's use, assuming they are, is.. well... There's lots of things that it could be called, but it doesn't seem to be correct as the writers/creators intended. As.. they've told us directly the opposite.

I don't understand why you see that as a problem. The writers aren't part of my game, they merely provide the inspiration for it. I'll use whatever rules as I see fit without any worry that I might not be playing the game "as the writer/creators intended".

I promise, though, that if I ever play in the writer's game, I'll follow his rules. Rumour has it, however, that even he doesn't play the game as written.

--flatline

The problem arises, in that when we're discussing palladium games -here- on the palladium forums. We're not discussing "Flatline and his house rules" Game. We're discussing the palladium games from the books.

You're more than welcome to play how ever you wish, but when discussing the games on the company's forum board, we're discussing the games that the company wrote and the rules they rote. Not your house stuff. You can by all means mention how you've changed what's written, but that's not how your post read. You replied that you just assume that if someone has the gear they know how to use it. (Which I find huge fault with logically) Not that 'In your games you change it to____'.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours of use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

The problem is that your 'assumption' is in direct confrontation from very plainly stated fact to the contrary, when it comes to mages. If the book says they're not proficient in it's use, assuming they are, is.. well... There's lots of things that it could be called, but it doesn't seem to be correct as the writers/creators intended. As.. they've told us directly the opposite.

So, just how long would someone not proficient in wearing armor (such as mages) need to wear it before they areconsidered proficient in wearing armor?

That's a tricky question. Made more so by other things in the books that indicate, by and large, that mages just 'wouldn't' wear it long enough for it to need to be answered. lol (And this ignores the fact that players are gonna do what ever they wanna do, in spite of flavor text in the books)

Personally that's going to end up a GM call. As stated though, there's not really any significant armor penalties or any 'armor preferences' beyond equipment lists, it's going to be a house rule when/if it pops up. The penalties mages get from armor are 'magical' based more than just physical.

I think there -should- be penalties for people that aren't used to wearing armor(Mages or others that aren't used to it) I enforce this in my games, but it's nothing more than a house rule. Nothing official.

[flatline]

I think there -should- be penalties for people that aren't used to wearing armor(Mages or others that aren't used to it) I enforce this in my games, but it's nothing more than a house rule. Nothing official.

So in your house rules, how long does a mage or cyber doc or wilderness scout have to regularly use armor for you to remove the penalty?

[flatline]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours of use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

The problem is that your 'assumption' is in direct confrontation from very plainly stated fact to the contrary, when it comes to mages. If the book says they're not proficient in it's use, assuming they are, is.. well... There's lots of things that it could be called, but it doesn't seem to be correct as the writers/creators intended. As.. they've told us directly the opposite.

I don't understand why you see that as a problem. The writers aren't part of my game, they merely provide the inspiration for it. I'll use whatever rules as I see fit without any worry that I might not be playing the game "as the writer/creators intended".

I promise, though, that if I ever play in the writer's game, I'll follow his rules. Rumour has it, however, that even he doesn't play the game as written.

--flatline

The problem arises, in that when we're discussing palladium games -here- on the palladium forums. We're not discussing "Flatline and his house rules" Game. We're discussing the palladium games from the books.

You're more than welcome to play how ever you wish, but when discussing the games on the company's forum board, we're discussing the games that the company wrote and the rules they rote. Not your house stuff. You can by all means mention how you've changed what's written, but that's not how your post read. You replied that you just assume that if someone has the gear they know how to use it. (Which I find huge fault with logically) Not that 'In your games you change it to____'.

So when you read my post, did you somehow interpret "I generally assume..." as "The official canonical answer is..."?

A question was asked about how a palladium game was played. I answered with how I play it. Again, I fail to see the problem.

[Damian Magecraft]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours of use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

The problem is that your 'assumption' is in direct confrontation from very plainly stated fact to the contrary, when it comes to mages. If the book says they're not proficient in it's use, assuming they are, is.. well... There's lots of things that it could be called, but it doesn't seem to be correct as the writers/creators intended. As.. they've told us directly the opposite.

I don't understand why you see that as a problem. The writers aren't part of my game, they merely provide the inspiration for it. I'll use whatever rules as I see fit without any worry that I might not be playing the game "as the writer/creators intended".

I promise, though, that if I ever play in the writer's game, I'll follow his rules. Rumour has it, however, that even he doesn't play the game as written.

--flatline

The problem arises, in that when we're discussing palladium games -here- on the palladium forums. We're not discussing "Flatline and his house rules" Game. We're discussing the palladium games from the books.

You're more than welcome to play how ever you wish, but when discussing the games on the company's forum board, we're discussing the games that the company wrote and the rules they rote. Not your house stuff. You can by all means mention how you've changed what's written, but that's not how your post read. You replied that you just assume that if someone has the gear they know how to use it. (Which I find huge fault with logically) Not that 'In your games you change it to____'.

So when you read my post, did you somehow interpret "I generally assume..." as "The official canonical answer is..."?

A question was asked about how a palladium game was played. I answered with how I play it. Again, I fail to see the problem.

it has to do with presentation.
It does not come off at first reading as "this is our house rule" but as "this is the common interpretation".

[Damian Magecraft]

Someone mentioned the old PF 1st ed armor rules.
Perhaps a look at those would be in order before we just arbitrarily make any declarations on untrained penalties?

[flatline]

So when you read my post, did you somehow interpret "I generally assume..." as "The official canonical answer is..."?

A question was asked about how a palladium game was played. I answered with how I play it. Again, I fail to see the problem.

it has to do with presentation.
It does not come off at first reading as "this is our house rule" but as "this is the common interpretation".

I have re-read my post and I do not see anything in it that suggests my opinion is anything more than simply my opinion.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Re-reading a thread talking about mages and armor and it referenced a passage from the RUE where it talks about how mages are not trained to wear armor and take additional penalties for wearing armor.

My question is this: For how long (i.e. how many levels or how many weeks) would someone who is not trained to wear armor have to wear armor to be considered "trained" in wearing it?

However long it takes for them to change OCCs to one that is trained in that class of armour. Regrettably there is no separate 'armour skill'.

The thing is Warriors don't just have one training period where they "get used to" wearing armor....They continually training with their equipment to make their movements 2nd nature, and to KEEP it's to be 2nd nature.

With everyone else they are just wearing the armor from time to time and their "training time" is doing other things, not focusing on using their combat equipment.

It is not just "being used to" the armor....it is that wearing it is "2nd nature."

[Jefffar]

Re-reading a thread talking about mages and armor and it referenced a passage from the RUE where it talks about how mages are not trained to wear armor and take additional penalties for wearing armor.

My question is this: For how long (i.e. how many levels or how many weeks) would someone who is not trained to wear armor have to wear armor to be considered "trained" in wearing it?

However long it takes for them to change OCCs to one that is trained in that class of armour. Regrettably there is no separate 'armour skill' - it's tied to the OCCs. So rules as written you'd need to switch OCCs.

[Killer Cyborg]

Re-reading a thread talking about mages and armor and it referenced a passage from the RUE where it talks about how mages are not trained to wear armor and take additional penalties for wearing armor.

My question is this: For how long (i.e. how many levels or how many weeks) would someone who is not trained to wear armor have to wear armor to be considered "trained" in wearing it?

However long it takes for them to change OCCs to one that is trained in that class of armour. Regrettably there is no separate 'armour skill' - it's tied to the OCCs. So rules as written you'd need to switch OCCs.

That was going to be my answer exactly.

[Shark_Force]

Re-reading a thread talking about mages and armor and it referenced a passage from the RUE where it talks about how mages are not trained to wear armor and take additional penalties for wearing armor.

My question is this: For how long (i.e. how many levels or how many weeks) would someone who is not trained to wear armor have to wear armor to be considered "trained" in wearing it?

However long it takes for them to change OCCs to one that is trained in that class of armour. Regrettably there is no separate 'armour skill' - it's tied to the OCCs. So rules as written you'd need to switch OCCs.

afaict, as written there are no rules that penalize you for being "untrained" in armour. nor are their rules for who is trained in armour or not. it's just flavour text.

so practically speaking it takes no time at all.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours of use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

The problem is that your 'assumption' is in direct confrontation from very plainly stated fact to the contrary, when it comes to mages. If the book says they're not proficient in it's use, assuming they are, is.. well... There's lots of things that it could be called, but it doesn't seem to be correct as the writers/creators intended. As.. they've told us directly the opposite.

I don't understand why you see that as a problem. The writers aren't part of my game, they merely provide the inspiration for it. I'll use whatever rules as I see fit without any worry that I might not be playing the game "as the writer/creators intended".

I promise, though, that if I ever play in the writer's game, I'll follow his rules. Rumour has it, however, that even he doesn't play the game as written.

--flatline

The problem arises, in that when we're discussing palladium games -here- on the palladium forums. We're not discussing "Flatline and his house rules" Game. We're discussing the palladium games from the books.

You're more than welcome to play how ever you wish, but when discussing the games on the company's forum board, we're discussing the games that the company wrote and the rules they rote. Not your house stuff. You can by all means mention how you've changed what's written, but that's not how your post read. You replied that you just assume that if someone has the gear they know how to use it. (Which I find huge fault with logically) Not that 'In your games you change it to____'.

So when you read my post, did you somehow interpret "I generally assume..." as "The official canonical answer is..."?

A question was asked about how a palladium game was played. I answered with how I play it. Again, I fail to see the problem.

As written, yes, your answer was that you assume, in the rules, that if you have the gear, you're trained in how to use it. Not that in your personal games, you house rule it thusly.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Re-reading a thread talking about mages and armor and it referenced a passage from the RUE where it talks about how mages are not trained to wear armor and take additional penalties for wearing armor.

My question is this: For how long (i.e. how many levels or how many weeks) would someone who is not trained to wear armor have to wear armor to be considered "trained" in wearing it?

However long it takes for them to change OCCs to one that is trained in that class of armour. Regrettably there is no separate 'armour skill' - it's tied to the OCCs. So rules as written you'd need to switch OCCs.

Nicely put. This would be my answer as well.

[flatline]

As written, yes, your answer was that you assume, in the rules, that if you have the gear, you're trained in how to use it. Not that in your personal games, you house rule it thusly.

I can't help it if you read words that aren't there.

[flatline]

What specific passage in RUE are we talking about? I just flipped through the armor section and the magic section and didn't see anything that looked like the passage mentioned earlier.

[dragonfett]

It's under the random table for mages casting in armor, RUE p. 188 I think.

[flatline]

It's under the random table for mages casting in armor, RUE p. 188 I think.

Thank you. I see it now.

It's looks like a generalization to me since some mages clearly are combat classes that would be an exception: battle magi, temporal warriors, mystic knights, demon quellers, etc. I actually have no beef with applying the additional 5% penalty to non-combat mage classes (ley line walkers, temporal wizards, mystics, etc) if you feel it makes your game better somehow. However, if you assign it to them, then to be consistent you should assign it to non-mage OCCs that aren't combat classes like Rogue Scientists/Scholars, City Rats, Wilderness Scouts and Cyber Docs.

This is my opinion. Nothing above should be interpreted as canon.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As written, yes, your answer was that you assume, in the rules, that if you have the gear, you're trained in how to use it. Not that in your personal games, you house rule it thusly.

I can't help it if you read words that aren't there.

Those are the words that -are- there Flatline. In your previous post, the one we're discussing you did not in any way indicate you were discussing a house rule. Your post was in reply to the topic in general and your answer was that you assumed it was ___.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As a side note. I would apply the same penalties to non combat classes. Mage or no. So yes, Rogue Scientists, scholars, Cyber Docs, etc.

Wilderness scouts fall under adventurers and are out in the wilderness and dealing with the wild and wolly critters of Rifts earth. They wear their armor to survive in situations where if they get hurt they're far from any town or save, and with out military back up. I'd think they're used to wearing the armor and wouldn't get the penalties.

[Gamer]

Re-reading a thread talking about mages and armor and it referenced a passage from the RUE where it talks about how mages are not trained to wear armor and take additional penalties for wearing armor.

My question is this: For how long (i.e. how many levels or how many weeks) would someone who is not trained to wear armor have to wear armor to be considered "trained" in wearing it?

Well in the real world militaries tend to have recruits wear body armor for a few weeks to 'get used to it'
I can say that personally after about a month or so of wearing it everywhere constantly every day I was pretty used to it and wasn't overly hampered by it (other than its inherent bulk i.e. its movement penalties and weight)
I would say as a house rule that if your training up someone with no armor experience six weeks minus IQ+PE days is reasonably fair as a house rule. YMMV.

What real world military is running around in full body armor? none.
we've tested pieced armor but that went over like lead swim fins and then there's the future warrior pipe dreams.

People will complain about mages running around in body armor and anyone who has done MOUT operations knows how much fun we have with all the gear on us but nobody sees the problem with mages engaging in combat wearing more blankets wrapped around them than is on my bed?
Forget MOUT lets get into combat in the overgrown wilderness that is Rifts.
Now lets go back to complaining about mages in body armor again.

My mages are going to be practical and wear body armor and not going to be wearing the latest fashions from tent and awning.

[13eowulf]

I think that's just a nonsensical statement to talk mages out of wearing armor.

Not that training can't make an enormous difference, but there is no armor proficiency in this game anyway.

While true for Rifts specifically, not true for all of Palladium. Splicers has a WP Armor if I recall, and Rifts 24 & 25 have some armor related skills (though I confess the details escape me and they are not at hand to check).

[kaid]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours or use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

That does make sense, since someone shouldn't remain at 'just fell off the turnip truck' level of how to use something after weeks or months let alone years of using it on even a semi-regular basis and unless you're someone who never needs armor (and even the average MDC creature still tends to wear armor) you ought to be wearing it on a regular basis and used to it after some point.

Given pretty much every OCC I can think of as of the RUE starts with MDC body armor be it home made or tech manufactured I have to assume all OCC have reasonable familiarity with at least basic armor types. I can see men at arms being better able to switch from manufacturer to manufacturer but otherwise I don't see to much point of the whole learning the armor stuff. Given things like the CS armor is designed for use by near total illiterates it simply cannot be that complicated to put on and take off.

The main hinderance for magic users would be heavy synthetic armor types and full environmental systems due to the impacts on their magic but even that is not a lot of a hinderance. You can get hodgepodge stuff thats pretty heavy armor and a gas mask/goggles for your air filtration needs.

[13eowulf]

I generally assume that characters know how to use their starting equipment.

For the rare Rifts character that doesn't start with armor, go ahead and assign penalties if you think that makes your game better, but I'd remove the penalties after they've spent some time getting used to it (a week or two of daily use? 100 hours or use? whatever makes for easy bookkeeping for you).

That does make sense, since someone shouldn't remain at 'just fell off the turnip truck' level of how to use something after weeks or months let alone years of using it on even a semi-regular basis and unless you're someone who never needs armor (and even the average MDC creature still tends to wear armor) you ought to be wearing it on a regular basis and used to it after some point.

Given pretty much every OCC I can think of as of the RUE starts with MDC body armor be it home made or tech manufactured I have to assume all OCC have reasonable familiarity with at least basic armor types. I can see men at arms being better able to switch from manufacturer to manufacturer but otherwise I don't see to much point of the whole learning the armor stuff. Given things like the CS armor is designed for use by near total illiterates it simply cannot be that complicated to put on and take off.

The main hinderance for magic users would be heavy synthetic armor types and full environmental systems due to the impacts on their magic but even that is not a lot of a hinderance. You can get hodgepodge stuff thats pretty heavy armor and a gas mask/goggles for your air filtration needs.

What does literacy have to do with it? Being illiterate in and of itself does not make a PC or NPC stupid (or real people for that matter), and there are ways of training/teaching skills that don't involve having to be literate.
CS soldiers go though boot camp, and get trained on many things that may be considered complicated, and do so without literacy, why would armor suddenly be simpler because they are illiterate?

[kaid]

Re-reading a thread talking about mages and armor and it referenced a passage from the RUE where it talks about how mages are not trained to wear armor and take additional penalties for wearing armor.

My question is this: For how long (i.e. how many levels or how many weeks) would someone who is not trained to wear armor have to wear armor to be considered "trained" in wearing it?

Well in the real world militaries tend to have recruits wear body armor for a few weeks to 'get used to it'
I can say that personally after about a month or so of wearing it everywhere constantly every day I was pretty used to it and wasn't overly hampered by it (other than its inherent bulk i.e. its movement penalties and weight)
I would say as a house rule that if your training up someone with no armor experience six weeks minus IQ+PE days is reasonably fair as a house rule. YMMV.

What real world military is running around in full body armor? none.
we've tested pieced armor but that went over like lead swim fins and then there's the future warrior pipe dreams.

People will complain about mages running around in body armor and anyone who has done MOUT operations knows how much fun we have with all the gear on us but nobody sees the problem with mages engaging in combat wearing more blankets wrapped around them than is on my bed?
Forget MOUT lets get into combat in the overgrown wilderness that is Rifts.
Now lets go back to complaining about mages in body armor again.

My mages are going to be practical and wear body armor and not going to be wearing the latest fashions from tent and awning.

Honestly some of the new cloth armors from NG are pretty darn nice for mages. With a jump suit and a long coat get a good 30-50 MDC depending on which ones you get as something that both looks nice and won't bother their spell casting and have minimum impact on physical skills. Basically mages just need enough armor to help blunt the caught with your pants down ambush situations to give you time to start throwing up your magical defenses. On the high end I have seen hodgepodge dinosaur type sets of armor get upwards of 75MDC of a sort of armor that again has no impact on magic abilities and minimal on physical skills. So the limitations such as they are never were very limiting.

[Library Ogre]

I make it a proficiency, with light being automatically proficient, and heavy and medium armors being their own proficiency. Spend a secondary skill and you're proficient, assuming you have some armor to practice in.

[Damian Magecraft]

I make it a proficiency, with light being automatically proficient, and heavy and medium armors being their own proficiency. Spend a secondary skill and you're proficient, assuming you have some armor to practice in.

But what are the penalties for using armor that you are not proficient in?

[eliakon]

Re-reading a thread talking about mages and armor and it referenced a passage from the RUE where it talks about how mages are not trained to wear armor and take additional penalties for wearing armor.

My question is this: For how long (i.e. how many levels or how many weeks) would someone who is not trained to wear armor have to wear armor to be considered "trained" in wearing it?

Well in the real world militaries tend to have recruits wear body armor for a few weeks to 'get used to it'
I can say that personally after about a month or so of wearing it everywhere constantly every day I was pretty used to it and wasn't overly hampered by it (other than its inherent bulk i.e. its movement penalties and weight)
I would say as a house rule that if your training up someone with no armor experience six weeks minus IQ+PE days is reasonably fair as a house rule. YMMV.

What real world military is running around in full body armor? none.
we've tested pieced armor but that went over like lead swim fins and then there's the future warrior pipe dreams.

People will complain about mages running around in body armor and anyone who has done MOUT operations knows how much fun we have with all the gear on us but nobody sees the problem with mages engaging in combat wearing more blankets wrapped around them than is on my bed?
Forget MOUT lets get into combat in the overgrown wilderness that is Rifts.
Now lets go back to complaining about mages in body armor again.

My mages are going to be practical and wear body armor and not going to be wearing the latest fashions from tent and awning.

Considering that most of the body armor in the game (even heavy EBA) weighs less than many modern vest systems.....
It would appear that Rifts armor is less encumbering than both modern body armor and things like sports.
If it was really all that encumbering it would have to weigh less, would have to have higher penalties, and would of course....require some sort of skill to use (I mean remember this is a game that automatically assumes everyone simply by breathing has basic familiarity with any and all ancient weapons.....)

So yeah, I would say that modern body armor training (Or sports training to use hockey 'armor', or firefighter training or....) is probably fairly close to 'good enough' for this purpose.

[Library Ogre]

I make it a proficiency, with light being automatically proficient, and heavy and medium armors being their own proficiency. Spend a secondary skill and you're proficient, assuming you have some armor to practice in.

But what are the penalties for using armor that you are not proficient in?

Good question. I don't have my books on me, but I'd say they're usually found right in front of the armor section.

Of course, being Palladium, they might be found in front of armor section of ANOTHER book. Or a book in another game. Possibly a book in an alternate universe.

[Fell]

<Gone Role Playing>

[Library Ogre]

IIRC, Fantasy has two sets of penalties for heavy armor... "Not Proficient" and "Proficient." No matter what, you always get the Proficient penalties... or their worse cousins.

Now, I would figure Rifts-tech armor would have less severe penalties, since it's better constructed. But I don't have what the official ones are handy.

[Shark_Force]

I think that's just a nonsensical statement to talk mages out of wearing armor.

Not that training can't make an enormous difference, but there is no armor proficiency in this game anyway.

While true for Rifts specifically, not true for all of Palladium. Splicers has a WP Armor if I recall, and Rifts 24 & 25 have some armor related skills (though I confess the details escape me and they are not at hand to check).

yeah, but as i recall that WP is for stabbing people with your armour spikes, not for wearing armour without (increased) penalties.

and considering i just refreshed my memory less than a minute ago, i'm pretty confident i recall correctly.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I have been wearing body armor daily for 20+ years (not because I'm crazy geez....because of my job).

I still hate it. It is still uncomfortable. Its hot, restricts movement and is a general pain in the a$$.

I also feel weird when not wearing it, like I forgot to do something....

I think I got "used to it" in a day or two, but you never truly forget that you are wearing it.

My job issues us armor. We have had 4 different sets of armor over the years, each by a different company. Some are more comfortable than other...the latest set I refused to wear, it sucks! I just use my old set.

"Body armor" or "A vest"?

Because in Rifts, we're talking head to toe. Helment, neck, chest and back, sides, shoulders, upper arm, elbo, forearm, gloves, belt, crotch, upper legs, knee, lower leg, boots.

I don't know of any job that requires wearing full armor every day for 20 years... Not off the top of my head.

Wearing a bullet proof vest is a thing. Cops do it. Some private security, but its not quite the same thing. Even full out modern swat guys aren't covered like people in Rifts armors.

[Dog_O_War]

I have been wearing body armor daily for 20+ years (not because I'm crazy geez....because of my job).

I still hate it. It is still uncomfortable. Its hot, restricts movement and is a general pain in the a$$.

I also feel weird when not wearing it, like I forgot to do something....

I think I got "used to it" in a day or two, but you never truly forget that you are wearing it.

My job issues us armor. We have had 4 different sets of armor over the years, each by a different company. Some are more comfortable than other...the latest set I refused to wear, it sucks! I just use my old set.

"Body armor" or "A vest"?

Because in Rifts, we're talking head to toe. Helment, neck, chest and back, sides, shoulders, upper arm, elbo, forearm, gloves, belt, crotch, upper legs, knee, lower leg, boots.

I don't know of any job that requires wearing full armor every day for 20 years... Not off the top of my head.

Wearing a bullet proof vest is a thing. Cops do it. Some private security, but its not quite the same thing. Even full out modern swat guys aren't covered like people in Rifts armors.

Your statement isn't even 100% true to Rifts, the thread, nor mages.

In Rifts, "vests" exist, there are at least a dozen types, and mages still receive the same penalty for wearing them as they do the armour you've described.

Additionally, you really can't say it would be more uncomfortable wearing some futuristic armour invented hundreds of years in the future, any more than anyone else could. For all we know, it's more comfortable than Fell's vest.

[flatline]

Additionally, you really can't say it would be more uncomfortable wearing some futuristic armour invented hundreds of years in the future, any more than anyone else could. For all we know, it's more comfortable than Fell's vest.

We know it's air-conditioned

[eliakon]

Additionally, you really can't say it would be more uncomfortable wearing some futuristic armour invented hundreds of years in the future, any more than anyone else could. For all we know, it's more comfortable than Fell's vest.

We know it's air-conditioned

And super light weight. And that many suits are apparently so light and flexible that there are no movement penalties of any sort (meaning that yes, you can do gymnastics in them...)
Which suggests that they are a might bit different that the stuff we use today....

[Fell]

Edited...never mind. Have a good one

[flatline]

Also as I tell my players, mages should do magic. Cast spells. They see guns and tech armor as inferior to their spell abilities.

This in a contentious topic here on the forum. Entire threads have been devoted to it and then got locked because things got too heated.

[13eowulf]

Also as I tell my players, mages should do magic. Cast spells. They see guns and tech armor as inferior to their spell abilities.

This in a contentious topic here on the forum. Entire threads have been devoted to it and then got locked because things got too heated.

[off-topic]
I personally like the idea that outside of devices created by TWs, and TWs & Cybermancers, magic and tech dont get along.
I understand this isnt canon, but it is an idea I like.
There is an option Insanity that I came up with that applies only to magic users where they firmly believe that magic and tech dont mix so hard that they subconsciously use some PPE to disrupt any tech they try to use in an negative manner. There are different levels of insanity from no effect only belief, to personal only effect, to area of effect.
[/off-topic]