Marine Book, Chuck did is again!

[Scorpion Leader]

Okay after looking through my copy of the Marines Sourcebook I must admit I due like Chuck Walton's ARTWORK for the New Cyclones, The Titan GMU and IFHV Archon. I'm just Mainly disappointed in the MAC and then the other Battloids/Destroids and Zentraedi Mecha cold of been done better and more closer to the original form from other "Official" source material. Nuff said. I'm done. This is my final post here regarding this subject. I have had plenty of experience in these forums in past, where I learned its not worth the arguments, and I don't want to see this posting get locked. So that being said I just hope, but doubt, that perhaps there will be an updated and Revised version of the Marines Sourcebook.
Peace Out, I'm Done. Scorpion Leader Out.

[glitterboy2098]

In regards to the Love Live Alive mecha.

the flaw in your arguement is your taking an "either/or" approach.. that the mecha see in LLA and the one in the UEEF marines are vying for the same designation.

given that most of the other mecha we see in that sequence seem to be southern cross (like the three Sylphid Jet Fighters flying past before the Garfish lifts off), the Mecha we see may not have been a UEEF mecha at all.

it could well have been a UEDF/ASC mecha.

further, if you watch the scene in question, you'll notice a few things that establish this is NOT the mecha planend for the old Sentinels show. it only has 3 guns (1 body, one per arm), not 5. and it is firing what appear to be projectile shells, not the particle beams of the sentinels version.

if you look at the Macross Saga sourcebook, you'll notice the Monster Destroid is the HWR-00. and if you look at the UEEF marine Monster Destroid, it is the HWR-02.

this means there is still a HWR-01 that could appear, in terms of designations. personally, i'd attribute the LLA mecha to be that HWR-01.. a design most likely created by the UEDF not long after the 1st war ended to replace the HWR-00 Monster's, and which the ASC kept in service in limited numbers for artillery support (since we do see some sort of Tri-barrelled artillery in the Episode "halfmoon", which as only the barrels appeared, we never found out what exactly they were mounted on.)

presumably it was too big to load aboard the Garfish or one of the Shuttles evacuating those ASC forces and was instead assigned to cover the final loading and take off of the evacuation.

[Scorpion Leader]

Okay I'm sorry I said my last post would be m last here, but I Forgot to Mention something Very Important for the Protection of HG and Palladium Books. I don't know If Anyone Here is Familiar with Matels Hot Wheels Battle Force 5 Line of Toys and Animated Cartoon in in Syndication??
But just to point out unfortunately HG and Palladium Books may have Inadvertently Violated Copyright with Mr.Walton's Artwork for the Spider Cyclone Mecha.

The Spider to Closely Resembles the Battle Force 5 Chopper!!! Just thought you should know just in case No One has brought that up to your Attention yet!! So that's it that's all I have. So I've Finally said my peace and I am Out of Here!! This now is my final post here in this thread.. See Yeah!!

P.s. Someone doesn't understand CANON and Fandom very well if they want to argue about either or approaches. Sorry but just as in life there is very little grey area or so called middle ground its usually black or white, good or evil (or in the case of Palladium alignments Selfish with a leaning towards one or the other) Yin or Yang(although it is said a little of each exists in the other), This or That It cannot be both.

You are Wrong in your notion that in LLV that the Mecha seen could belong to the SC and not the UEEF; As your Example even points out the Fact we see a Garfish Taking Off, which is Well Established as being a UEEF Design Ship and Not of SC origins!! So there goes that argument. As for the Model Numbers yes that does leave leeway. But the Marines Sourcebook pretty much follows the original Robotech Rpg Sentinels and REF Feild Guide Sourcebooks (which I still own btw) in regards to the Destroids overall in their design with the exception of the MAC.

Again Seeing even the Stats for the MAC also closely follow the 1st Ed. but not entirely and given it was seen on Screen (which in General 99.99% of the time Makes it Official CANON (trumping all other sourcs). The MAC should have been depicted in similar design as seen in LLA and the original model sheets and 1st Ed game.

As lame as this arguement may sound HG even finally relented and the VF-1R became official CANON even though it was an obviously a Studio Rendering Mistake. But because it appeared on Screen (and of course because the fans embraced and advocated for it) it became Official!! So as I said on Screen in General Trumps All other Sources as far as what is considered Official CANON is most of time.

[jaymz]

The spider isnt violating copyrights. Its from actual preproduction materials of mospeada from 1984.

As for not understanding canon.... Its been explained more than once that rt canon has been utterly redefined which you seem to be choosing to ignore. So no those old designs are NOT official canon whether you like it or not.

[Seto Kaiba]

Okay I'm sorry I said my last post would be m last here, but I Forgot to Mention something Very Important for the Protection of HG and Palladium Books. I don't know If Anyone Here is Familiar with Matels Hot Wheels Battle Force 5 Line of Toys and Animated Cartoon in in Syndication??
But just to point out unfortunately HG and Palladium Books may have Inadvertently Violated Copyright with Mr.Walton's Artwork for the Spider Cyclone Mecha.

The Spider to Closely Resembles the Battle Force 5 Chopper!!!

Um... the "Spider Cyclone" design is not an original design by Palladium Books or Harmony Gold.

Like most of the "new" mechanical designs in the UEEF Marines sourcebook, the Spider Cyclone's design is one of many unused/rejected design concepts created by Studio Artmic during the development of the Genesis Climber MOSPEADA series back in early 1983 (and, as you know, MOSPEADA was rewritten and dubbed into English as Robotech's "New Generation" saga).

With the exception of Chuck's new Destroid art, the mechanical designs in the Marines sourcebook about 2 years older than Robotech... and thus are about 27 years older than Battle Force 5. So if anyone had a right to complain to the courts it'd actually MOSPEADA's owners, Tatsunoko Production Co. Ltd..

EDIT: The original art piece traced for the sourcebook is dated 24 February 1983, and was titled "MOTO-SPIDER".

P.s. Someone doesn't understand CANON and Fandom very well if they want to argue about either or approaches.

I fear you may be a little behind the times when it comes to Harmony Gold and their views on canon in Robotech:

After the double-cancellation of Robotech 3000, Harmony Gold opted to bring in a new creative director and flush all the pre-existing material except the original series via a reboot of the universe. All three versions of the Sentinels story got tossed in the reboot, and officially only the "broad strokes" of the Sentinels story are valid. (Harmony Gold seems unusually keen to avoid using any designs from Sentinels, which were done to address Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko's legal inability to use the Macross designs in new animation. HG's creative staff may feel those designs, which still bore aesthetic resemblences to the original Macross art on which they were based, are no longer safe to use after burning bridges with Macross's owners in 1999.) Simply being in the show is not always a guarantee that something is canon, as Harmony Gold maintains there are errors in the Robotech series. (e.g. the TAF Sylphid from Southern Cross is referred to as a Veritech on a few occasions in dialog from the Masters Saga but is officially kept as a non-transforming fighter like it was in the original Southern Cross.)

You are Wrong in your notion that in LLV that the Mecha seen could belong to the SC and not the UEEF; As your Example even points out the Fact we see a Garfish Taking Off, which is Well Established as being a UEEF Design Ship and Not of SC origins!! So there goes that argument.

That doesn't actually follow... never mind that official canon makes the Garfish-class one of the oldest in the United Earth Forces fleets, but what we see in Love Live Alive is UEEF troops coming to extract what's left of UEDF forces on the ground during the Invid invasion. If that unidentified mecha is anything like as big as the old Monster series, it wouldn't have fit into any transport the UEEF had at the time, so it would have to have been an about-to-be-abandoned UEDF unit instead of a UEEF unit.

But the Marines Sourcebook pretty much follows the original Robotech Rpg Sentinels and REF Feild Guide Sourcebooks (which I still own btw) in regards to the Destroids overall in their design with the exception of the MAC.

So? That doesn't mean a darn thing... the "1st Edition" RPG is one of the many titles to get tossed in the reboot.

Again Seeing even the Stats for the MAC also closely follow the 1st Ed. but not entirely and given it was seen on Screen (which in General 99.99% of the time Makes it Official CANON (trumping all other sourcs). The MAC should have been depicted in similar design as seen in LLA and the original model sheets and 1st Ed game.

Unless, of course, the mecha in Love Live Alive is not intended to be the unused Sentinels destroid design... or the unused Sentinels design now represents a rejected prototype rather than a mass production unit.

You're making a repeated disconnect between "what I think I see on screen" and "what is official".

[Kagashi]

In regards to the Love Live Alive mecha.

the flaw in your arguement is your taking an "either/or" approach.. that the mecha see in LLA and the one in the UEEF marines are vying for the same designation.

given that most of the other mecha we see in that sequence seem to be southern cross (like the three Sylphid Jet Fighters flying past before the Garfish lifts off), the Mecha we see may not have been a UEEF mecha at all.

it could well have been a UEDF/ASC mecha.

further, if you watch the scene in question, you'll notice a few things that establish this is NOT the mecha planend for the old Sentinels show. it only has 3 guns (1 body, one per arm), not 5. and it is firing what appear to be projectile shells, not the particle beams of the sentinels version.

if you look at the Macross Saga sourcebook, you'll notice the Monster Destroid is the HWR-00. and if you look at the UEEF marine Monster Destroid, it is the HWR-02.

this means there is still a HWR-01 that could appear, in terms of designations. personally, i'd attribute the LLA mecha to be that HWR-01.. a design most likely created by the UEDF not long after the 1st war ended to replace the HWR-00 Monster's, and which the ASC kept in service in limited numbers for artillery support (since we do see some sort of Tri-barrelled artillery in the Episode "halfmoon", which as only the barrels appeared, we never found out what exactly they were mounted on.)

presumably it was too big to load aboard the Garfish or one of the Shuttles evacuating those ASC forces and was instead assigned to cover the final loading and take off of the evacuation.

All really good points. I dont think I ever noticed it was a three gun mecha anyway. I saw the area where the bombs were on the MAC III and assumed it was the same mecha as described in the old Sentinels canon. I like the idea of this being the same mecha as the elusive ASC artillery support mecha we have seen for years in the Masters Saga.

[jaymz]

Interesting side note....similar scene in one of the new comics (which iirc are considered canon) has a tiger in place of the tri cannon mecha seen in lla.

[ShadowLogan]

Interesting side note....similar scene in one of the new comics (which iirc are considered canon) has a tiger in place of the tri cannon mecha seen in lla.

And continuing on this Love & War Comic (canon) had the "tiger", but "Love, Live, Alive" is the newer production. The way I see it this discrepancy can be resolved in several ways (some of which can mix/match for even more possibilities):
-Same mecha, but is a Full Veritech, we are looking at different "modes"
-Battloids (which Destroids are) have a Guardian Mode (Condor in "Invasion"), this might be an all or some aspect (as not all Veritechs have 3-main usable configurations so if ntbs are "partial" veritechs may be similar)
-separate mecha that fill similar roles, both participating in the battle, since the Tiger is deploying with a known VHT maybe it's a VHT variant itself (a possibility previously discussed in the fandom) in the continuity and the "tri" is an nt-version
-RECTON (IINM that is supposed to be some of the new footage in LLA), for what ever reason (legal?, can HG even use pre-production designs from the OSM in animation?)
-same mecha, but we are seeing armored "add-ons" like the GBP-1S or FAST-PACK on the VF-1 (and to an extent Alpha) in one of the two media

[Seto Kaiba]

Interesting side note....similar scene in one of the new comics (which iirc are considered canon) has a tiger in place of the tri cannon mecha seen in lla.

And continuing on this Love & War Comic (canon) had the "tiger", but "Love, Live, Alive" is the newer production. The way I see it this discrepancy can be resolved in several ways (some of which can mix/match for even more possibilities):

IIRC, the last time someone from these forums wrote to Tommy Yune to ask about the official canon, he told them that the comics published under DC/Wildstorm were pseudo-canon except for Prelude... so "retcon" may be the most likely option.

-separate mecha that fill similar roles, both participating in the battle, since the Tiger is deploying with a known VHT maybe it's a VHT variant itself (a possibility previously discussed in the fandom) in the continuity and the "tri" is an nt-version

Apart from the theory that the "Tiger" non-transformable robot is really transformable, this would be my preferred interpretation... the two different mecha are both present in the battle, and we're just seeing it from different angles that obscure one or the other.

(If it IS a design similar to the unused Sentinels Monster, it was probably a UEDF unit because that's too big to fit aboard the Garfish-class transports being used.)

-RECTON (IINM that is supposed to be some of the new footage in LLA), for what ever reason (legal?, can HG even use pre-production designs from the OSM in animation?)

To the best of my knowledge, Harmony Gold should not have any problem obtaining permission to use the MOSPEADA concept art in new animation... the series is owned by Tatsunoko Production Co. Ltd..

-same mecha, but we are seeing armored "add-ons" like the GBP-1S or FAST-PACK on the VF-1 (and to an extent Alpha) in one of the two media

Unlikely, IMO... FAST packs disappeared after the Macross Saga except in the RPG and non-canon comics.

[glitterboy2098]

Interesting side note....similar scene in one of the new comics (which iirc are considered canon) has a tiger in place of the tri cannon mecha seen in lla.

And continuing on this Love & War Comic (canon) had the "tiger", but "Love, Live, Alive" is the newer production. The way I see it this discrepancy can be resolved in several ways (some of which can mix/match for even more possibilities):
-Same mecha, but is a Full Veritech, we are looking at different "modes"
-Battloids (which Destroids are) have a Guardian Mode (Condor in "Invasion"), this might be an all or some aspect (as not all Veritechs have 3-main usable configurations so if ntbs are "partial" veritechs may be similar)
-separate mecha that fill similar roles, both participating in the battle, since the Tiger is deploying with a known VHT maybe it's a VHT variant itself (a possibility previously discussed in the fandom) in the continuity and the "tri" is an nt-version
-RECTON (IINM that is supposed to be some of the new footage in LLA), for what ever reason (legal?, can HG even use pre-production designs from the OSM in animation?)
-same mecha, but we are seeing armored "add-ons" like the GBP-1S or FAST-PACK on the VF-1 (and to an extent Alpha) in one of the two media

actually i'm pretty sure that since the Love and War comic scene takes place a the sun sets and the ship is still loading, while the love live alive scene takes place at night and shows the actual takeoff, that they are just two points in time during the same battle.

[Kagashi]

no reason to believe the LLA mecha and the Tigers in Wildstorm were not both present. Its not like the Tigers were actively engaged in the comics, and the LLA Mecha was...clearly two different phases of the battle.

[ShadowLogan]

IIRC, the last time someone from these forums wrote to Tommy Yune to ask about the official canon, he told them that the comics published under DC/Wildstorm were pseudo-canon except for Prelude... so "retcon" may be the most likely option.

I thought they (DC/Wildstorm, but not likely the crossover) all fell into the canon status at one time. They are all definately secondary continuity according to the old RT.com Biblio.

(If it IS a design similar to the unused Sentinels Monster, it was probably a UEDF unit because that's too big to fit aboard the Garfish-class transports being used.)

Possibly, but it should be noted that there are multiple ways the Garfish-class could transport a Monster allowing it to remain UEEF (and/or UEDF who would still need a way to transport it)
-actually fits. The 1E REF Field Guide has the Sentinels MAC3 at 14.8m tall x 11.6m wide and 12.5m long. The height probably is fully erect, so it can "hunch over" to reduce it's height (I'd say approx 25% reduction), and the arms can probably be "tucked-in" closer to reduce width (though not by much). So assuming that 1E size is still correct, there is a shot in Ep61 (IINM) that gives an indication of the size of the bays: each level appears to be 1 F-Mode Alpha length in height (~10m) and at the widest point ~2 Alpha F mode length, though it narrows down to ~1, we know you can put in multiple Alphas lengthwise. So it might be a "tight fit", but the MAC3 can potentially fit. I'm not sure how the Conbat Hangars (suggested in Invasion Comic) compare to the Alpha's, but the Conbat is bigger than an Alpha so either they both use a standard hangar size module, or the UEEF has multiple hangar sizes which gets into the next point. Mass I think would be more of a restricting factor by the 1E Mac3 stats than dimensions (110tons loaded vs x3 16.7ton dry,though likely some margin in mass allowance.
-a specialized undercarriage module in place of the stock double decker hanger modules (we know there are at least 2 configurations for the underbelly)
-disassemble the Mac3 for transport in a stock unit, probably not ideal for "hot" zone deployment/extraction, but something that could still be done. Does have some real world precedent.
-actually is intended to be carried internally is correct as opposed to externally on a Garfish, though there is no indication on how this setup would work or who is on top. There is some precedent though in the Real World for this (Space Shuttle/747, SR-71 variant w/D-21drone, X-15/B-52, even the X-1/B-29 qualifies as at least semi-recessed), and we know that the UEEF has used the approach with regard to the Alpha/Beta combo and the Horizon-T, so the basic approach is known to them and a part of their thinking
-while not necessarily a Garfish, one could use a different class vessel for transport (if the UEEF has the GMU back...). Even if it was a UEDF only mecha, the UEDF probably would want some way to rapidly deploy the mecha themselves.

Unlikely, IMO... FAST packs disappeared after the Macross Saga except in the RPG and non-canon comics.

Not exactly. The VHT modifications for space flight basically amount to FAST-Packs (even if they appear to be resticted like the GBP-1S in mode deployment and with no indication on how old the systems are), and the UEEF did develop such modules for the Alpha and Beta (shadow models) in TSC (who knows how long "low powered" versions might have been around). So even w/n canon animation we know the concept hasn't been completely abandoned, its just rarely used which was true even in Macross Saga (what 4 episodes use add-ons?).

[Seto Kaiba]

I thought they (DC/Wildstorm, but not likely the crossover) all fell into the canon status at one time. They are all definately secondary continuity according to the old RT.com Biblio.

Prior to being asked about it last year by a user on these forums, Tommy had told the fans that the DC/Wildstorm comics were all canon (being the basis for the reboot and all)... so I honestly don't know what to tell you there.

Now, on the other hand, where is this "secondary continuity" coming from WRT the Infopedia Bibligraphy? It never used that term, and classified titles only on the basis of whether they were adapted from the 85 episodes or not. (It helps not at all that, because they were represented by store links, the post-reboot titles were not color-coded like the older material.)

Possibly, but it should be noted that there are multiple ways the Garfish-class could transport a Monster allowing it to remain UEEF (and/or UEDF who would still need a way to transport it)
-actually fits. The 1E REF Field Guide has the Sentinels MAC3 at 14.8m tall x 11.6m wide and 12.5m long.

Considering how substantially inaccurate the 1st Edition RPG was, and that its material is not applicable to 2nd Edition or canon, that is kind of a dubious premise at best. IIRC, the comics represented it as being MUCH larger than that... closer to the size of the HWR-00-Mk.II from Macross that it was loosely based on... though those are not strictly applicable either.

(And, of course, due to the inconsistencies of hand drawn animation and comics, the size of the Garfish-class's hangar varies considerably... typically depicted as being an extremely snug fit for an Alpha.)

-a specialized undercarriage module in place of the stock double decker hanger modules (we know there are at least 2 configurations for the underbelly)

OK, that I can concede that that's perfectly possible.

-disassemble the Mac3 for transport in a stock unit, probably not ideal for "hot" zone deployment/extraction, but something that could still be done. Does have some real world precedent.

Since this was a combat drop, I think we can probably rule that one out... but otherwise this is also quite plausible.

-actually is intended to be carried internally is correct as opposed to externally on a Garfish, though there is no indication on how this setup would work or who is on top. There is some precedent though in the Real World for this (Space Shuttle/747, SR-71 variant w/D-21drone, X-15/B-52, even the X-1/B-29 qualifies as at least semi-recessed), and we know that the UEEF has used the approach with regard to the Alpha/Beta combo and the Horizon-T, so the basic approach is known to them and a part of their thinking

Er... a few problems with this one. The one time the internal cargo hold of the Garfish has been shown, it would not have the ceiling clearance to hold mecha much larger than Cyclones, let alone a large-ish one like a Monster... and there's no apparent door connecting said cargo bay directly to the outside of the ship. (Also, the Horizont didn't carry the Legioss-TLEAD combo internally... the only part of it that is physically inside the Horizont is the Legioss' cockpit, via a docking connector.)

Unlikely, IMO... FAST packs disappeared after the Macross Saga except in the RPG and non-canon comics.

Not exactly. The VHT modifications for space flight basically amount to FAST-Packs (even if they appear to be resticted like the GBP-1S in mode deployment and with no indication on how old the systems are), and the UEEF did develop such modules for the Alpha and Beta (shadow models) in TSC (who knows how long "low powered" versions might have been around).

A few issues with this as well...

The VHT modifications wouldn't really fall under the header of FAST packs since (apart from the temporary canopy over the cockpit) they don't actually add any armor or weaponry or improve the actual combat performance of the mecha in any measurable way. In the series, the implication is that they're new hardware developed for the 15th's transition to space operations.

The UEEF's FAST packs for the Super Shadow Fighters come way, WAY after that... the Super Shadow Fighters were prototypes that were meant to improve upon the Shadow Fighters, which didn't become available until the 2040's. Wrong time period.

So even w/n canon animation we know the concept hasn't been completely abandoned, its just rarely used which was true even in Macross Saga (what 4 episodes use add-ons?).

Dunno if you could classify those as "rarely used" considering the scale on which we see them deployed. They seem to be the rule for space operations with the VF-1 from Ep27 on, and pretty much every VF-1 was deployed with them. You could argue that the Armored Pack was rare, since that's a design we almost never see.

Have we ever actually had, in canon, a set of detachable option packs for non-transformable robots?

(From the OSM sourcing perspective, you could make excellent arguments that the FAST packs for the VF-1 are common as dirt and the Armored Pack is quite rare.)

[ShadowLogan]

Considering how substantially inaccurate the 1st Edition RPG was, and that its material is not applicable to 2nd Edition or canon, that is kind of a dubious premise at best. IIRC, the comics represented it as being MUCH larger than that... closer to the size of the HWR-00-Mk.II from Macross that it was loosely based on... though those are not strictly applicable either.

I agree it is dubious to some extent, but if those numbers are considered "accurate" then it would be possible. Is the Mac3 (Sentinels Monster) every actually given hard numbers anywhere other than the 1E RPG? It should still be considered as possible until we can get better data.

Er... a few problems with this one. The one time the internal cargo hold of the Garfish has been shown, it would not have the ceiling clearance to hold mecha much larger than Cyclones, let alone a large-ish one like a Monster... and there's no apparent door connecting said cargo bay directly to the outside of the ship. (Also, the Horizont didn't carry the Legioss-TLEAD combo internally... the only part of it that is physically inside the Horizont is the Legioss' cockpit, via a docking connector.)

Sorry typo, that should read "is intended to be carried internally is incorrect as opposed to externally on a Garfish" (changed "correct" to "incorrect"). Remember we are assuming internal carriage as the norm, so going through the upper body hold doesn't appear likely (unless there is another access hatch/bay we don't know about yet), and the hangar holds (shown w/Alphas) depicted are iffy given available information. That would leave external transport, either completely external or semi-recessed to some extent. The main problem with this is who's on top, and noticeable docking connectors. I suppose there could be side mounted "pods" to handle the issue, but that is more of a "specialized module" angle IMHO.

The VHT modifications wouldn't really fall under the header of FAST packs since (apart from the temporary canopy over the cockpit) they don't actually add any armor or weaponry or improve the actual combat performance of the mecha in any measurable way. In the series, the implication is that they're new hardware developed for the 15th's transition to space operations.

I have to disagree here, the VHT add-ons do bring space engines (and propellant storage) components into the mix, which is a part of of what the FAST Packs bring to the VF-1, not just ~46 SRMs. So the VHT is getting a mobility boost in space, as I don't recall the transport mode being used in the vacuum of space w/o it. How old the system actually is I don't know, its hard to say what was redone for space combat using existing systems and was new (aside from the Pupil Pistol System).

The UEEF's FAST packs for the Super Shadow Fighters come way, WAY after that... the Super Shadow Fighters were prototypes that were meant to improve upon the Shadow Fighters, which didn't become available until the 2040's. Wrong time period.

I agree that the those specific designs are for the Super Shadow Fighters in the 2040s, but we do not know if regular variants have less stresful systems either. Just look at TMS and its tie in Yune Comics, the FAST Packs had been around since the development testing but did not get in the field until near the end of the war (around 7years later IINM). So the Alpha might have something similar in its history, we just don't know, it seems likely that the UEEF would at least look at the technology to address the Alpha short comings given the cancellation of the Beta-7.

Dunno if you could classify those as "rarely used" considering the scale on which we see them deployed. They seem to be the rule for space operations with the VF-1 from Ep27 on, and pretty much every VF-1 was deployed with them. You could argue that the Armored Pack was rare, since that's a design we almost never see.

They are used in 4 episodes out of 36 (can cut a few episodes that don't have the VF-1) if we restrict it to just TMS saga, but RT as whole is 85episodes. With a frequency like that I'd say they are rare given:
-GBP-1S was in "Miss Macross"
-FAST Packs are in x3 episodes (Ep24,Ep27,30) and Ep27 is the only one that appears to use FAST Pack VF-1s exclusively (aside from Rick after he re-enters the atmosphere), as Ep24 had the system as "new" and Ep30 does show some regular VF-1 browies w/o FAST Packs in the battle (ignoring the launch/recovery prior).

Have we ever actually had, in canon, a set of detachable option packs for non-transformable robots?

The Condor Battloid I think is the closest, if we go with the animation depiction a "Booster module" (invoking Alpha-B/Beta-F type imagery) in the one still frame but is absent in the Invasion Comic/2E RPG depictions (I'd also add the Legacy DVDs lineart collection to IINM, at least for Sentinels). Though this is more mobility orientated like the VHT than a multi-purpose like the TMS system. IMHO if the thinking and technology exist for one class, then it is reasonable for it to exist in the other class (it may or may not be practical though).

It is also possible w/re to the SDF-3 given it had an exo-skeletal hull, or Lunk's jeep (missiles and cannon), but neither of these are 'bots. Non-terrans also have some potential candidates as far as 'bot platforms go, but they are non-terran and subject to POV.

[Seto Kaiba]

I agree it is dubious to some extent, but if those numbers are considered "accurate" then it would be possible. Is the Mac3 (Sentinels Monster) every actually given hard numbers anywhere other than the 1E RPG?

That is a BIG if, considering the 1st Edition RPG is non-canon AND was supposedly written with virtually no help from HG.

The place to check would be the animation model sheets produced for Robotech II: the Sentinels, but even those may not be valid for this mecha in Love Live Alive...

I have to disagree here, the VHT add-ons do bring space engines (and propellant storage) components into the mix, which is a part of of what the FAST Packs bring to the VF-1, not just ~46 SRMs. So the VHT is getting a mobility boost in space, as I don't recall the transport mode being used in the vacuum of space w/o it.

That's not really a FAST pack as the OSM and Robotech define it though... that's just a space-use maneuvering system. It has the Fuel, but not the Armaments or Sensors, and it doesn't really materially improve the Tactical use of the hovertank since it was only really used to jump a short distance onto an enemy ship.

I agree that the those specific designs are for the Super Shadow Fighters in the 2040s, but we do not know if regular variants have less stresful systems either.

There's no evidence to suggest that they were (at present).

[ShadowLogan]

That's not really a FAST pack as the OSM and Robotech define it though... that's just a space-use maneuvering system. It has the Fuel, but not the Armaments or Sensors, and it doesn't really materially improve the Tactical use of the hovertank since it was only really used to jump a short distance onto an enemy ship.

It certainly improve the tactical use of the VHT compared to when we see it operating in space w/o said modifications. In "Volunteers" Dana is not shown to move from the hull/bay, that could be a situational thing, but when the 15th escapes from the Cityship for the second time they have to use salvaged Bioroid Hoversleds to make it back since those modules had been jettisoned. By all indications though the system improves the tactical use of the VHT, if even for a short distance.

Basically we have to decide if we want to expand the definition of FAST-Pack here to include similar items or come up with a new term for the add-on system.

The place to check would be the animation model sheets produced for Robotech II: the Sentinels, but even those may not be valid for this mecha in Love Live Alive...

Not considering the LLA mecha specifically, just the Sentinels Mac3 specifically as found in the 1E RPG and Sentinels Extras since there are slight-but-noticeable differences (missing barrels). Since LLA doesn't really give a reference object that isn't subject to perspective (AFAIK). Is there an official size comparison chart somewhere for Sentinels? (I've seen character ones, but not mecha).

[Arnie100]

Much clearer shot I hope: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... MwgcKAAwAA

[jaymz]

That is definitely the mac 3. 5 barrels in the shot.

[Arnie100]

MAC III: http://robotech.wikia.com/wiki/File:Mac ... _art_3.png

[jaymz]

Yep. The other image has 5 barrels. Definitely the mac 3.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, the image linked is only an animatic, not the final image.
thus is is not representative of the footage fro mthe show itself.

this GIF, which i made from LLA itself, shows what we saw on screen.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/ ... l7k6ju.gif

as you can see, only 3 barrels are readily apparent, and the arm guns are also firing some sort of artillery shells (instead of the PBC's of the decanonized sentinels version)

[jaymz]

Actually if you look REALLY closely and pay veru close attention at the "blasts" coming from the barrels....I think I can see other barrels silhouetted and like the animatic the barrels are very easy to miss as they are almost aligned behind other barrels. At least that is what I can see when watching the animated gif over and over again and comparing it to the animatic.

[jaymz]

And trust me..it isn't that I WANT to see that as I actually think the MAC 3 is a piece of crap.