Should the VR-057 to replace VR-052

[Sparticus]

This is a question that has been on my mind as of late. I have been running a Robotech New Generation Game now for a year and its coming to the point where the VR-057 will start to appear. What I’m wondering is should the VR-057 replace the VR-052. In terms of armor protection and firepower the VR-057 is superior and in all other aspects the two cyclones are equal. As far as if a VR-057 can be stored on an Alpha or Beta well there is no dimensions given for the cyclone compartment only a 500-pound weight limit and the fully armed VR-057 comes under the weight limit. By using that rule a VR-057 could be stored in an Alpha Beta and the emergency vehicle. So with this in mind would the VR-057 replace the VR-052 or would the two cyclones take up similar roles to the VR-011 and VR-017 with the VR-052 being the basic infantry model and the VR-057 being for heavy weapon squad members and storm commando strike teams. In the book is stated that there is a rumor that it will replace the VR-052 but is that rely true. Are there compelling reasons to replace the VR-052 with the VR-057.

[glitterboy2098]

the 057 is meant to become the standard infantry Cyclone, so for the haydonite war it certainly would start to replace the 052 in cyclone rider units.

that said, in 2044 it is still just a limited run of suits for field testing. so i doubt that they will replace very many 052's at all before the 1 year fuel deadline is up.

as far as survival mecha go, i'd say the 052 will remain the standard for a long while. a survival cyclone does not need to be a top of the line combat suit, just one that can provide protection and mobility to a downed pilot. the 052 works fine for that, and it would be less resource intensive to just retain the older suit for the survival mecha. (particularly as existing infantry 052's can be transferred to survival suit use as the infantry receive their new 057's.)

given enough time would the 057 become the new standard? probably. but it would take a number of years. by that point even the haydonite war would be over.

[ShadowLogan]

While I suspect you might see a variant of the VR-057 given over to the survival unit role in the future that would lack the railgun due to the size of the gun (likely to just streamline production and to replace -052 attrition). This is because the text in the RPG, while lacking dimensions, is quite clear that there is no room for anything else unless you remove the Cyclone (animation even supports this). Since the bay is a snugg fit for the -038/-042/-052 model Cyclones who don't have that BFG (which is nearly 2m long IINM), you aren't really going to be able to squeeze in the any new over sized systems or extras (like the sidecar, or HRG-70 sized gun, the EP-37 might be boarder line).

Now that is if the UEEF sticks with the Alpha and Beta, a replacement Veritech(s) might not have those problem if the bay makes allowances for potential future growth of survival mecha systems that are to include the HRG-70 or something like it. The Beta can also potentially store additional extras currently elsewhere in the mecha internally, but that lengthens the deployment/recovery time, which might not be attractive.

[Seto Kaiba]

This is a question that has been on my mind as of late. I have been running a Robotech New Generation Game now for a year and its coming to the point where the VR-057 will start to appear. What I’m wondering is should the VR-057 replace the VR-052.

IMO... No, the VR-057 would not be a replacement for the VR-052 in all operational roles.

My read of it, based both on the extremely sparse information in the RPG and Shadow Chronicles art book and the origin of the design in the MOSPEADA OSM, would be that the VR-057 series would be the equivalent of an infantry support weapons team in ground operations. The big railgun they carry precludes fitting them into the emergency vehicle bay on the Alpha or Conbat, and the chief advantage of the VR-057 is the heavy weapons it carries. In infantry applications, my guess would be that the ground forces of the UEEF would put (depending on availability) anywhere from 1-2 per platoon to 1 per 4-5 man fire team.

[Jefffar]

This is a question that has been on my mind as of late. I have been running a Robotech New Generation Game now for a year and its coming to the point where the VR-057 will start to appear. What I’m wondering is should the VR-057 replace the VR-052.

IMO... No, the VR-057 would not be a replacement for the VR-052 in all operational roles.

My read of it, based both on the extremely sparse information in the RPG and Shadow Chronicles art book and the origin of the design in the MOSPEADA OSM, would be that the VR-057 series would be the equivalent of an infantry support weapons team in ground operations. The big railgun they carry precludes fitting them into the emergency vehicle bay on the Alpha or Conbat, and the chief advantage of the VR-057 is the heavy weapons it carries. In infantry applications, my guess would be that the ground forces of the UEEF would put (depending on availability) anywhere from 1-2 per platoon to 1 per 4-5 man fire team.

Depends on the phase in schedule.

Early on some units may not have it at all, some units may have a 'heavy weapons' squad or platoon of 057 and some units may be almost pure 057s with Silverbacks filling the heavy weapons role.

I would anticipate that near complete phase in the 057 would be the standard ground combat Cyclone across all branches while the utility/survival Cyclone would either remain a 052 or be a less armed version of the 057.

[Seto Kaiba]

Depends on the phase in schedule.

Early on some units may not have it at all, some units may have a 'heavy weapons' squad or platoon of 057 and some units may be almost pure 057s with Silverbacks filling the heavy weapons role.

Well, to be accurate... the VR-057 really wouldn't/shouldn't be available at all since the only prototype salvaged from Space Station Liberty belongs to Vince Grant. Assuming it did make it to production, the RPG's non-canon armor improvement aside, I don't think they'd replace the VR-052's with it. It's supposed to be part of the Devastator series, which means it's a heavy fire support unit not really a general-purpose unit (and I doubt the railgun is detachable in canon).

From the RPG perspective they're close enough in performance that there wouldn't really be an incentive for wholesale replacement for the VR-052 series, which could easily replace or supplement their carried firearms with the Valiant.

[Sparticus]

I cannot believe I forgot this! Jefffar your post just reminded me of a critical oversight I have made. Seto Kaiba you also have brought his to my attention so thanks to you as well.

Scott uses a VR-052F cyclone in the series. According to the RPG this cyclone as part of its standard armaments includes a pair of GR-97s and a EP-37 Rifle. When he crashes on Earth however his cyclone while having the GR-97s lacks the EP-37. In fact, he does not have this weapon until episode 71 Secret routs at which point it’s a staple of his armaments. The Alpha’s compartment could not accommodate the weapon and the cyclone but upon gaining Lunk and his truck any said extra equipment (such as this weapon) could be carried and equipped later.

Because the cyclones weapons by nature are modular the VR-052F was included because its status as a common use mecha by all branches thus making it a good chose. While it lacked the EP-37 it was figured I suppose that acquiring one would not be that difficult as it would be so common a weapon on a battlefield. The same could be said for the VR-057. When it becomes the infantry standard the 057s placed aboard Alphas and Betas while possessing the H-260 rifle and GR-97 would lack the HRG-70 Rail Gun because the Alpha’s compartment could not accommodate it. However, with it being so common a weapon acquiring one and equipping it would be no real issue. After all, if you are using the VR-057 as an Alpha or Beta pilots it more than likely means that:

A) Your fighter has been shot out from under you and such storage constraints are no longer an issue.
B) You are traveling with companions that have a vehicle for you to store said extra equipment that you can retrieve and equip if you need to leave your fighter behind for some reason.

glitterboy2098 and ShadowLogan the both of you made good points which led me to this posable conclusion. If any see a flaw in my thinking here than by all means share your thoughts I am all ears.

[Sparticus]

Depends on the phase in schedule.

Early on some units may not have it at all, some units may have a 'heavy weapons' squad or platoon of 057 and some units may be almost pure 057s with Silverbacks filling the heavy weapons role.

Well, to be accurate... the VR-057 really wouldn't/shouldn't be available at all since the only prototype salvaged from Space Station Liberty belongs to Vince Grant. Assuming it did make it to production, the RPG's non-canon armor improvement aside, I don't think they'd replace the VR-052's with it. It's supposed to be part of the Devastator series, which means it's a heavy fire support unit not really a general-purpose unit (and I doubt the railgun is detachable in canon).

From the RPG perspective they're close enough in performance that there wouldn't really be an incentive for wholesale replacement for the VR-052 series, which could easily replace or supplement their carried firearms with the Valiant.

Actually as part of its features the HRG-70 can be equipped to either the left or right side of the cyclone, has a discharging ammo belt connected to an internal ammo drum and can be detached from its mounting and used as a heavy rifle in battloid mode. So yes the HRG-70 can be detached. If you need you can find the description of the weapon on page 161 of the Shadow Chronicles Rule Book.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually as part of its features the HRG-70 can be equipped to either the left or right side of the cyclone, has a discharging ammo belt connected to an internal ammo drum and can be detached from its mounting and used as a heavy rifle in battloid mode. So yes the HRG-70 can be detached. If you need you can find the description of the weapon on page 161 of the Shadow Chronicles Rule Book.

Yes, I know what the RPG says... but you clearly didn't read my post. I've copied the important bit that you jumped the gun on, with bold emphasis, below:

[...] (and I doubt the railgun is detachable in canon).

If the weapons ARE all detachable as the RPG says, that kind of puts the VR-057 itself in the "why bother" category doesn't it? It'd be easier by far to just take the weapons and slap them on the existing fleet of VR-052's.

[Jefffar]

If the railguns are detachable in the officially sanctioned RPG and there is nothing to contradict that in the show, then there is no reason to say they aren't detachable in canon.

Also, I don't think it indicates anywhere officially that there is only one 057 either.

[Seto Kaiba]

If the railguns are detachable in the officially sanctioned RPG and there is nothing to contradict that in the show, then there is no reason to say they aren't detachable in canon.

The RPG is an officially-licensed but non-canon work, there's no reason that its take on anything would be credible evidence as to a mecha's abilities in canon. In the absence of evidence that the weapon IS detachable, the most reasonable assumption is that, like the design it was based on, the weapon is not detachable. Being non-canon, the RPG can do its own thing to a certain extent, as it does in virtually every book... though as I noted, if the weapons can be mounted on ANY Cyclone, why bother upgrading to the VR-057 for no (or modest, in the RPG) gain in performance elsewhere when you could just slap the weapons on a VR-052 and call it a day?

Also, I don't think it indicates anywhere officially that there is only one 057 either.

Like the Super Shadow Fighter, the VR-057 is a prototype that was still under development at Space Station Liberty in 2044 when the Haydonites attacked... and with the loss of the station, only those prototypes appropriated by the Icarus's crew survived. That means Vince's VR-057, a half-dozen or so Super Shadow Fighters taken by Skull Squadron, and the only Ark Angel-class ship that was complete enough to sail.

The plans may have survived, or could be recreated from the surviving units, but it wouldn't be a commonplace unit anytime soon.

[eliakon]

If the railguns are detachable in the officially sanctioned RPG and there is nothing to contradict that in the show, then there is no reason to say they aren't detachable in canon.

The RPG is an officially-licensed but non-canon work, there's no reason that its take on anything would be credible evidence as to a mecha's abilities in canon. In the absence of evidence that the weapon IS detachable, the most reasonable assumption is that, like the design it was based on, the weapon is not detachable. Being non-canon, the RPG can do its own thing to a certain extent, as it does in virtually every book... though as I noted, if the weapons can be mounted on ANY Cyclone, why bother upgrading to the VR-057 for no (or modest, in the RPG) gain in performance elsewhere when you could just slap the weapons on a VR-052 and call it a day?

Two issues there.
One you are presupposing that if the -057 weapon is removable it is mountable on the -052. There is nothing to support that contention so it is basically a strawman.

Second you are presupposing that facts that are unknown (if it is or is not removable) must be a certain way....with out any evidence.
Since there is absolutely no evidence what so ever on this there is nothing what so ever to say that it can or can not be removed in canon. ANY claims that it can or can not then become conjectural and there is no 'most reasonable assumption' when there is literally nothing to base that assumption on.

More to the point, aren't the weapons load outs on the -052 modular in canon? Which would in fact suggest that there is a canon history of removable weapons.
If the -052 has modular weapons, why would we believe that they would abandon that for non-modular weapons in the -057?

[Seto Kaiba]

Aren't all the various weapon packs on the -052 officially modular in canon? Is there any reason to believe that they would not be doing the same with the -057?

Nope. As in the OSM, the official Robotech stats for the VR-052 treat the armament options as different variants of the VR-052 and there's no mention made of modularity in the armaments.

[Sparticus]

Aren't all the various weapon packs on the -052 officially modular in canon? Is there any reason to believe that they would not be doing the same with the -057?

Nope. As in the OSM, the official Robotech stats for the VR-052 treat the armament options as different variants of the VR-052 and there's no mention made of modularity in the armaments.

Actually I did read your post and even if they are not modular that does not change the fact that any 057 could equip the weapons it was designed to nor change the fact that the HRG-70 is detachable from the 057 in the context of the game and because of this a 057 could be loaded into an Alpha and/or Beta without the weapon but equip said weapon later. Also in the Shadow Chronical Movie when Caption Grant saves Scott he actually detaches his HRG-70 uses it as a rifle. The can clearly be seen by how he is holding and firing the weapon. He reattached it to its right shoulder hard point off screen before stomping on the Haydoniti he just filled full of holes.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually I did read your post and even if they are not modular that does not change the fact that any 057 could equip the weapons it was designed to nor change the fact that the HRG-70 is detachable from the 057 in the context of the game and because of this a 057 could be loaded into an Alpha and/or Beta without the weapon but equip said weapon later.

Within the context of the game, yes... a VR-057 could detach its railgun in order to fit into an Alpha, but that would make it a slightly less effective version of the VR-052T until it was able to recover the weapon. That's part of why I don't think it would replace VR-052 units outright... it has more to offer as a supplement to the VR-052 in ground operations then it does as a replacement for the VR-052 throughout the UEEF arsenal. If its armaments are removable and modular, they could do an end-run around the VR-057 entirely with the installation of its armaments on existing VR-052's.

Also in the Shadow Chronical Movie when Caption Grant saves Scott he actually detaches his HRG-70 uses it as a rifle. The can clearly be seen by how he is holding and firing the weapon. He reattached it to its right shoulder hard point off screen before stomping on the Haydoniti he just filled full of holes.

Actually, they don't show it detached... they only show him firing it with the weapon precisely in line with its attachment point on the right side of the Cyclone, which suggests he's firing it while it's still attached. (Of course there's the small problem of where his other gun went while he did this...)

[ShadowLogan]

I don't think they'd replace the VR-052's with it. It's supposed to be part of the Devastator series, which means it's a heavy fire support unit not really a general-purpose unit (and I doubt the railgun is detachable in canon).

This might be problematic because we don't know what the "standard" Cyclone Infantry Unit will need to look like/develop in/result of the Haydonite War. The VR-057 might be "heavy" for Invid use, but not necessarily for the Haydonites (it might be overkill, it might be to light, it might be just right, etc). Though at the begining of the war the -052 will be the standard, that doesn't mean it will be by the end of the war.

If the weapons ARE all detachable as the RPG says, that kind of puts the VR-057 itself in the "why bother" category doesn't it? It'd be easier by far to just take the weapons and slap them on the existing fleet of VR-052's.

I'm not sure it falls in to the "why bother" category if that is the actual case as there could be other improvements in mecha itself that exist but aren't noticeable (the -57 IS heavier and it has a higher PS than the -052 jump out readily, then there is the extra armor) or not even mentioned yet. That could stop the HRG-70 from being a plug and play deal with the -052 (or surplus -038/041s) in its current form (modified is another matter), though I don't really see anything stopping a VR-052 from being re-manufactured/rebuilt into the VR-057 standard.

Scott uses a VR-052F cyclone in the series....

Correct, however the T/F configurations detailed in the 2E RPG is also said to be the infantry standard (light, heavy) configurations not the emergency standard (which by the series is basically an F w/o the EP-37).

[jedi078]

IMO the VR-057 replaces the VR-017 Crusader from the UEEF Marine source book. The VR-042 (equipped with GR-97 instead of CADS) should really be the primary infantry Cyclone the UEEF uses.

[Sparticus]

Ok so I have three possibilities for how this could go now:

1) The VR-057 dose not replace the VR-052 but instead operates as an infantry cyclone ONLY for the UEEF Marines as a heavy weapons platform for squads of cyclone riders with whole teams equipped with it for particularly heavy engagements. Reason: Because of its heavy weapons and better armor protection it is a more expensive unit to build and deploy so it will not be produced in the numbers that the more economic VR-052 is. This precludes it from seeing as wide spread deployment.

2) The VR-057 replaces the VR-052 as the infantry mecha of chose for the UEEF Marines but the VR-052 is still used as the preferred survival mecha for downed pilots. Reason: Because of its heavier weapons are increased armor protection its seen as the preferred infantry platform as it gives infantry heavier hitting power and increased survivability over previous models. However, its price tag precludes from being used as a survival mech for downed pilots so the VR-052 is now relegated fully to that role.

3) The VR-057 replaces the VR-052 completely in all areas of the UEEF. Reason: Its firepower and armor protection plus strength enhancement is better than the VR-052 while still being equal is speed and maneuverability making it the superior chose for the infantry. For pilots while the HRG-70 in not included with the VR-057 in there Alpha or Beta the H-260 and GR-97 give equal if not grater firepower that the typical VR-052 while still having superior armor protection and strength enhancement while being equal is speed and maneuverability to the VR-052. This and the fact that a downed pilot can pick up and equip a HRG-70 at a later date makes it superior over a VR-052F with an EP-37 which the cyclone would also have to pick up at a later time given that an EP-37 cannot be stored in the Alpha/Beta cyclone storage unit.

As always thoughts and opinions are welcomed.

[Jefffar]

I'd say you start with 1 and eventually move to 2 as bulk production spools up.

3 Is a maybe, but it'd have to be a sub model with relatively little of the type's inherent firepower

[Sparticus]

In all honesty I prefer something similar to my first option. That is the VR-052 Battler replaced the VR-011 Rifleman and the VR-057 Devastator (I refuse to call it Super Cyclone) replaces the VR-017 Crusader. Reason being that this combo works well with all OCC and MOS in the Marines Sourcebook as the cyclones being replaces are essentially being replaced by better versions and there is no question about which roll what cyclone has as its already defined. I think this is probably the best option.

[Sparticus]

I can also see what Palladium might have intended with the Alpha & Beta fighter’s storage space with the way they have worded it. We know the storage space can hold ONE cyclone or 500 pounds or equipment. Because that 500-pound limit is the only thing we have to go by I think that the Alpha/Beta storage can hold anything up to 500 pounds. With that in mind a fully armed VR-057 ways less than 500 pounds. I cannot help but feel this was an attempt to make the rules simpler. You cyclones ways less than 500 ponds that loaded aboard.

I know this may seem to not make a lot of sense but for the sake of the RPG this is what I feel they might have intended for what either fighter could store, that as long as the load dose not exceed 500 pounds that A VR-057 with equipment could be carried. Yes this includes the HRG-70

[ShadowLogan]

The VR-042 (equipped with GR-97 instead of CADS) should really be the primary infantry Cyclone the UEEF uses.

I don't think this would be a VR-042, it would be a VR-041F most likely since packages are designated by the letter, though I don't know how they would handle multi-packages.

We know the storage space can hold ONE cyclone or 500 pounds or equipment.

Yes, but we also know that the storage space doesn't allow room for anything else when it transports a -038/-041/-052 Cyclone, so that indicates that volume is fixed.

It basically amounts to the Cyclone Bay holding 500lbs and/or ~35.4ft^3 (Cyclone's volume in cycle mode, as we lack the actual dimensions in box mode in the 2E RPG, though the volume should remain constant). It is highly questionable weather there is actual room for the HRG-70 as it is nearly as tall as the Battloid mode Cyclone (6.75ft), nor does the weapon appear to have any "hinged" points along this axis meaning it can not fold up, which we know the Cyclone does ("and is able to fold down into a comparatively small package that can be placed inside a storage unit in the Alpha and Beta Fighter"-TSC pg137manga, this is especially true in the animation where it is shown to have a "box" mode for storage).

So no, the RPG doesn't allow for the HRG-70 to be carried with a VR-052.

[Tiree]

Are we sure that the Super Shadow Fighter does not have space for the VR-057. We are assuming that the new fighter would be identical to the old.

[Sparticus]

Believe me ShadowLogan I actually agree with you on the Alpha storage space. Just looking at pictures of an Alpha storage bay with a cyclone in it and I can clearly see there would be no way in hell for the HRG-70 AND a cyclone to be in that bay. I don’t even see being able to fit either the RL-6 or EP-37 in with a cyclone as well.

This is why I love specifics and unfortunately in this instance the books do not provide it. All I was saying in my last post is that despite what I believe and can see I think that those at Palladium Books were going for a simpler rule set hence the “either a cyclone or 500-pound weight limit”. With a simplification like that I can see where someone would draw the conclusion of fitting the fully equipped VR-057 in the day.

This is also a reason I was thinking that IF the VR-057 replaced the VR-052 that the 057 would have to be loaded into the Aplha/Beta bay without its HRG-70 just as Scott’s VR-052F had to forgo its EP-37. However, like the EP-37 in the game the HRG-70 can fully detach from the 057 therefor like how Scott later acquired a EP-37 the same could be done by an 057 operator. They find a HRG-70 and equip it to their cyclone just as Scott did in his case. If you still have your fighter just hope someone in the party has a truck like Lunk so you can store said extra equipment. That’s how I always saw Scott and Rook being able to carry around weapons that clearly could not fit in either Alpha with their cyclones.

As far as the VR-057 replacing the VR-052, I’m torn over the issue. In terms of armor protection, firepower and strength enhancement the VR-057 is superior while sacrificing none of the speed or maneuverability that the VR-052 has. This makes the VR-057 perhaps the next step in the UEEFs infantry mecha program. Now their marines have a ground mecha that is just as fast and nimble as their VR-052 while having firepower approaching the VR-017. Throw one or two Silverbacks in the mix and you have yourself one soled ground unit.

On the other hand, (though economics rarely factors into a palladium game) I can also see the VR-052 staying on simply because it’s the more economic chose with the VR-057 filling the roll of heavy weapons and squad support in a fireteem.

[glitterboy2098]

here is a question the book doesn't answer. if the HRG-70 is detachable and the equivilent of the EP-37 in regards to weapons assignment..

can a VR-052 obtain and mount a HRG-70?

[Sparticus]

here is a question the book doesn't answer. if the HRG-70 is detachable and the equivilent of the EP-37 in regards to weapons assignment..

can a VR-052 obtain and mount a HRG-70?

No the VR-052 does not possess the internal ammo drum used to hold the HRG-70’s 20mm ammunition nor dose it possess the side mounting hard points.

[ShadowLogan]

Are we sure that the Super Shadow Fighter does not have space for the VR-057. We are assuming that the new fighter would be identical to the old.

There is no indication anywhere about the Cyclone Bay being altered on the Super Shadow Fighter or the regular Shadow Fighter AFAIK. Personally I don't have a problem with the VR-057 itself fitting into the bay, it's the nearly 6ft long (by all indications) non-collapsing HRG-70 gunpod that can not be made to fit into the bay with the VR-057. The RL-6/EP-37 are much smaller and easier to give a pass on IMHO. The Cyclone in box mode appears to have the length of a Battloid mode cyclone (and closer to cycle mode width and the height is w/n the size of Scott's torso), and it doesn't appear to be "tight" cube since the storage boxes are also present adding to an irregular "cube", so you probably could get a smaller RL-6 or Ep-37 in either open zone on the sides maybe even on the handlebars/shoulder pods ("Separate Ways transformation sequence has it connected to the "shoulder" for at least 1/2 the transformation sequence and IINM Scott manually pulls it free, though here it might be store differently to keep everything w/n the "cube").

In the near term I think it would be unlikely that the -057 (stripped down or not) would be used for the mecha "emergency" vehicle, maybe in the long term it might happen, but not in the near term. A VR-057 just doesn't fit with the reason the full size Alpha (and other UEEF mecha) carry the Cyclone (emergency/survival unit) and it would be at odds with the stated mission role for the VR-057 (heavy infantry), which might also explain why RL-6s and Ep-37s aren't included either (not considered needed in the emergency/survival role).

[Sparticus]

Ok so here’s what I have come up with after reading all these wonderful posts so fare.

The VR-057 IS going to replace the VR-052 as the new heavy infantry cyclone, eventuly. The appearance of more heavily armed and armored Invid during the two wars with them (one with the Regent the other with the Regis) not to mention the coming war with the Haydonits would make it abundantly clear that the new cyclone would be needed to give the infantry firepower enough to deal with their forces.

The VR-052 would continue to serve as it is SLOWLY phased out and more VR-057s take their place. The last place the VR-052 would be is as an emergency mecha for the downed Alpha/Beta pilots. Once they were ready the UEEF would begin assigning VR-057s as survival mecha.
At this point one of two things could happen:

1) The Alpha & Beta continue to serve and thus the HRG-70 is excluded from the 057 packed in the fighters. It still retains its H-260 Laser Rifle and GR-97 mini-missile launcher as well as its internal ammo drum carrying the ammo for the HRG-70 and the harp points to mount the weapon (as both the ammo drum and hard points are PART of the cyclone). If forced to use the cyclone the pilot could find/acquire a HRG-70 (being a common weapon by this point) and equip it to his/her VR-057 much in the same way Scott had to find/acquire his EP-37 for his VR-052F as the weapon was not included in his Aplha’s storage bay.

2) A new veratech fighter is built and its cyclone storage bay is designed to accommodate not only the VR-057 but the HRG-70 as well.

As always comments and suggestions upon these thoughts are welcomed.

[glitterboy2098]

or option 3, which is more likely: a new -05# cyclone variant is designed for use as a survival mecha, making use of the 057 technological improvements, but with a different weapons load that does not include the HRG.

[ShadowLogan]

The VR-057 IS going to replace the VR-052 as the new heavy infantry cyclone, eventuly. The appearance of more heavily armed and armored Invid during the two wars with them (one with the Regent the other with the Regis) not to mention the coming war with the Haydonits would make it abundantly clear that the new cyclone would be needed to give the infantry firepower enough to deal with their forces.

Not necessarily. The Haydonite Infiltrator and Wraiths certainly are not likely to be the entire Haydonite Inventory, and while we see the Cyclone engage Infiltrators, the first one they drop we don't know what they used (it resulted in an explosion so I'm thinking GR-97s), but we know they stopped the second one by attacking the pilot directly with their guns (EP-37 and HRG-70). Based on that one scene the Cyclones may still be out-classed even with something like an HRG-70 and forced to use GR-97s or bring back the something with a GR-103.

What I suspect will happen is a form of #2 in your future scenario. The UEEF definitely will be designing new mecha, as we know the Alpha is nearing the end of its life (the Super Shadow Upgrades take it to the edge, so from certain vantages points the frame doesn't have much more room to grow). However as a survival/emergency mecha, I don't see the Cyclone tasked with this role to need to bring heavy infantry level fire power to do its job for several reasons:
-what capabilities might the future VT have to give up to allow the Cyclone to bring that extra firepower and "dead weight"? In the Alpha it looks like the sacrificed internal propellant space given the restricted aerospace capability it is supposed to have (and who knows what else). It might simply be easier to produce a cyclone with more mini-missiles into the available space than work in an HRG-70.
-remember the mecha that carries a Cyclone is intended for it to be used an "emergency/survival" mecha so it is "dead weight" until then (and as dead weight, you want to minimize that, aerospace vehicles are always looking for ways to save on weight/mass) and as such it doesn't strike me that they are expected to get out and act as heavy Cyclone Infantry. So you have to ask yourself if that level of firepower is necessary for the Cyclone to accomplish this role.
-consider the investment the UEEF has made in training these mecha operators. The resource investment (cost) is not going to be the same, which means using "expensive" operators could be seen as a waste (and the UEEF doesn't have bottomless resources). That doesn't mean it can't be done, or shouldn't be done depending on the circumstances, but it does mean that such a use will likely be avoided.

We also have to consider that current UEEF mecha designs are compromised. Not just because the Shadow systems, but I suspect the Haydonites also probably have a good deal of familiarity with current UEEF mecha capabilities, at least the ones they worked on, so they could produce designs to be better able to handle the UEEF since their one known "trojan horse" is out of the picture. Being an ally of the UEEF they likely have some familiarity with other UEEF systems, even if they haven't worked on them like the Shadow Upgraded Alpha and Beta.

One also has to consider how the Haydonite War will unfold. Cyclone level Infantry may not even be more than a minor factor due to the way the war could be fought. Nearly all of the combat the UEEF has had against the Haydonites to date was against the Wraiths. And while the Cyclone was shown to be effective against the Infilitrator, it did have surprise on its side to knock down the first one, and the second one they didn't really take down directly since the pilot had gone EVA who they did take down. But that result doesn't mean much if the Haydonites only take those actions sparingly. We don't even know how extensive a boarding party could be on their ships beyond two areas, the rest could be much smaller since the actual haydonite body is fairly small w/o the robe (I mean do the Haydonites even need to have corridors built to be roomy enough for humans to move down?).

[Zer0 Kay]

Maybe they'll attach the railgun to the exterior of the alpha with electromagnets or just push a fix that replaces the cyclone storage hatch with one that has clamps, magnets or other device to mount the railgun on the outside of it.

[ShadowLogan]

Maybe they'll attach the railgun to the exterior of the alpha with electromagnets or just push a fix that replaces the cyclone storage hatch with one that has clamps, magnets or other device to mount the railgun on the outside of it.

I doubt it because:
1. you will now be exposing the railgun to the external environment, meaning it could be damaged/lost due to the battle or other actions meaning that when it came time to use it for the emergency/survival vehicle it might not be functional/available anymore.
2. weight penalty of 50lbs (plus the mounting mechanism weight and any potential protective covering) could be traded for potentially more beneficial material (armor, weapons, propellant) to the mecha in question. The weapon's ammo is stated to be internally carried in the Cyclone, so it can't even be used w/o additional alterations and weight penalties to make it functional by the Alpha/mecha in question (it doesn't need to be, but if its there...)
3. if you are mounting the railgun to a mecha in such an exposed fashion, it might make more sense for the larger mecha to utilize the weapon (or a variant) than its emergency/survival vehicle. I suppose you could make some of the Alpha weapons detachable for the Cyclone to use (like the nose lasers or head mini-missile launchers) easily and effectively, though I think that gets away from the concept that the Cyclone is the mecha pilot's emergency/survival vehicle and does nothing to mitigate point #1 and #5 (see below)
4. Placement has to be carefully chosen so as not to interfere with the transformation, which means there is NO ROOM for debate that it can not be attached externally in any way to the Cyclone Hold (it is located directly behind the cockpit and opens on the topside, and the cockpit folds back into this area, not to mention the shoulder sensor pod folds out from here), so it has to be move to another location and likely increases the impact of point #1.
5. How will this effect the mecha's retrieval time? This is for setup in either direction, since you know have to move the HRG-70 and Cyclone separately, and then connect/disconnect them (including the ammo feed). Time penalty in this case may be unattractive to UEEF for the role the cyclone is intended to act in when carried/used by a VF pilot. Also have to consider if any special equipment or approach will be needed for setup/tear-down, which again can add time that may be unattractive.

[Sparticus]

So I just wanted to let everyone know that I have come to a diction on this matter for my game. it was not an easy decision and it is one I have come to after careful thought. After reading all your posts I had some very good ideas but it was actually a good friend of mine and longtime RPG player/Game Master who finally helped me figure it out. He asked me to read the rules and entries about the cyclones and Alpha/Beta fighters and helped me come to my conclusion.

He saw that I was pretty torn on which of my decision to make and he knows that I have a minor OCD issue. His advice to me was this: “A game is meant to be fun when it stops being fun something is wrong”. I had become so focused on technical details and trying to discern something from vague rules in the Robotech Shadow Chronicles rule book that my game preparations stopped being fun and became a chore. He also helped remind me that since I am Game Master what I want to happen in my game outside of dice rolls happens.

With the only information in the book being that you can store one cyclone or have 500 lbs. of cargo in the storage bay he would interpret that you could have a cyclone in that bay as long as it does not exceed its 500 lbs. load capacity. When I pointed out the issues with the VR-057 and its gun he smiled and told me if as a game master if I want my players to have that mecha than its no issue unless I make it one. Its combined weight comes under the 500 lbs. limit by about 94 lbs. so it’s no issue given the only restrictions placed by info in the book. If I wanted a VR-038 to have its RL-6 it can, if I want a VR-052 to have its EP-37 it can. So Iv decided for my games a VR-057 AND its base equipment (HRG-70 included) can be stored in the Alpah/Beta fighter’s storage bay.

It’s been an immense pressure off my mind and now my game preparations have become fun again. I which to thank you all for your thoughtful and insightful posts. I will be posting more in the future regarding my preparation the next being about bringing some things in from Rifts to expand my setting and on which spells from the Book of Magic can be used for the Peyrton Energy Wizards and if I should allow them to take other magic classes.

[Zer0 Kay]

Maybe they'll attach the railgun to the exterior of the alpha with electromagnets or just push a fix that replaces the cyclone storage hatch with one that has clamps, magnets or other device to mount the railgun on the outside of it.

I doubt it because:
1. you will now be exposing the railgun to the external environment, meaning it could be damaged/lost due to the battle or other actions meaning that when it came time to use it for the emergency/survival vehicle it might not be functional/available anymore.

Uh... I'm sure that's what someone said about the gunpods...and yet there it is.

2. weight penalty of 50lbs (plus the mounting mechanism weight and any potential protective covering) could be traded for potentially more beneficial material (armor, weapons, propellant) to the mecha in question. The weapon's ammo is stated to be internally carried in the Cyclone, so it can't even be used w/o additional alterations and weight penalties to make it functional by the Alpha/mecha in question (it doesn't need to be, but if its there...)

I'm sure someone said that about external gunpods and the cyclone storage bay...and yet there they are.

3. if you are mounting the railgun to a mecha in such an exposed fashion, it might make more sense for the larger mecha to utilize the weapon (or a variant) than its emergency/survival vehicle. I suppose you could make some of the Alpha weapons detachable for the Cyclone to use (like the nose lasers or head mini-missile launchers) easily and effectively, though I think that gets away from the concept that the Cyclone is the mecha pilot's emergency/survival vehicle and does nothing to mitigate point #1 and #5 (see below)

I'm sure someone suggested just making a PA that is an integrated part of the aircrafts control system thereby negating the need for a reinforced pilots compartment, ejection seat and the necessity for a giant storage area...yet we have wasted space and wasted weight

4. Placement has to be carefully chosen so as not to interfere with the transformation, which means there is NO ROOM for debate that it can not be attached externally in any way to the Cyclone Hold (it is located directly behind the cockpit and opens on the topside, and the cockpit folds back into this area, not to mention the shoulder sensor pod folds out from here), so it has to be move to another location and likely increases the impact of point #1.

It adds nothing to point one, it does however make everything a moot point and you should have started and ended with that.

5. How will this effect the mecha's retrieval time? This is for setup in either direction, since you know have to move the HRG-70 and Cyclone separately, and then connect/disconnect them (including the ammo feed). Time penalty in this case may be unattractive to UEEF for the role the cyclone is intended to act in when carried/used by a VF pilot. Also have to consider if any special equipment or approach will be needed for setup/tear-down, which again can add time that may be unattractive.

well according to the silverback... Not much since it goes from the turret to the hand no problem. It is JUST as plausable as the equipment stored in the cockpit, can the pilot always manage to get it all? Is the pilot always able to get the cyclone, would the pilot always be able to get the railgun? The answer to them all is NO but each little bit the pilot is able to get increase his chance of survival. The ammo drum would already be on the cyclone as would the feed belt. The railgun likely also has an internal magazine so the silverbacks can use it hand held. So the pilot gets his ditch pack out of the cockpit, pops the cyclone storage lid and retrieves the cyclone if he has to bug out he bolts on the motorcycle if not he changes to PA mode grabs the already released railgun and runs off until he reaches a safe point where he can get shelter and connect the railgun properly. That being said... That entire point is again moot because of point 4. I do like the thought of the alphas weapon being modular so the cyclone can use them. Maybe make a new gunpod that is multiple railguns, maybe 3 and the cyclone can pop open the pod and grab one. Seeing as how Invid don't like using human weapons (not sure about haydonites) every downed alpha now becomes an arsenal for freedom fighters. Head laser accessible by popping open a panel.

[ShadowLogan]

Uh... I'm sure that's what someone said about the gunpods...and yet there it is.

Yes the mecha has external gunpods and the issue of a Cyclone Bay, but they are there. That doesn't mean the UEEF is willing to make additional compromises to the Alpha (or another mecha) in order to get the Cyclone emergency/survival mecha some extra firepower. If the Alpha (or other mecha) has 50lbs plus mounting weight available the question is that HRG-70 the best use of that 50lbs? Could that 50lbs be used more effectively to give the Alpha extra armor, firepower, or propellant (this last is one of the reasons for the Beta Fighter) instead of making its emergency/survival mecha a "heavy infantry platform"?

Given all the design compromises that have gone into the Alpha, that 50lbs used to enhance the Alpha directly makes more sense as you will reduce the need to use the Cyclone. There are probably easier ways to increase the firepower of the Cyclone used for survival/emergency than trying to work out how to fit a HRG-70 into the mix. The UEEF has built Cyclones with internal GR-103s before, and we know there are places to mount additional equipment (ex, the Saddlebags, though have to modify the setup so they don't drop away, and the saddlebags do have a missile adaptation system as shown on the Silverback). Such a setup might not rival a HRG-70 in terms of endurance, but the ability to volley might be worth the trade in endurance sense you theoretically don't have to use as much time (attack/actions) to do the same amount of damage. Given known technology, it would seem to make more sense to modify the Cyclone used for survival/emergency roles to have more mini-missiles than to work out how to get it a BFG that there is no room to store it with.

well according to the silverback... Not much since it goes from the turret to the hand no problem

That is the Silverback though, we are talking about its use on the Cyclone and the Silverback has advantages over the Cyclone in this area:
-The Silverback can have a crew of 2, greatly increasing ease of any manual setup situation, where the Cyclone in an emergency/survival role will be limited to one (unless a passenger rode in the pilot's lap, but that is highly unlikely and not something to count on)
-The Silverback has ROBOTIC PS of 30 vs Cyclone's Augmented Strength boost, so the Silverback will have an easier time handling the weapon.
-The Silverback itself is roughly x2 the size of the Cyclone, so it will be easier to handle because relatively speaking the HRG-70 is smaller to the Silverback than the Cyclone (or their operators). The HRG-70 is nearly as long as the Cyclone Battloid is tall (~7ft), so to a Silverback that is ~14ft tall w/o turret.
-The Silverback example though isn't directly comparable to the Cyclone sense the robotic limbs and such could have an automated stowage routine written to get it right, where the Cyclone wouldn't since the pilot will have to do it manually, even if they are using the Cyclone mecha itself
-The Silverback is pre-configured, and the HRG-70 is belt fed which to (re-)load PER THE TEXT in those entries you need "Field Armorer", "Weapons Engineer", or "Bio-Maintenance Engineer", skills that are not common OCC/MOS skills for VF/Battloid mecha pilots (Beta MOS is the only one), so you are looking at adding a system as presented the majority of mecha pilots don't know automatically (Cyclone OCC/MOS focused is a lot better in this regard, but they likely aren't the majority of your full-size mecha pilots) that would be using the Cyclone as an emergency/survival mecha (the entire reason they are said to carry the mecha)

[Zer0 Kay]

Uh... I'm sure that's what someone said about the gunpods...and yet there it is.

Yes the mecha has external gunpods and the issue of a Cyclone Bay, but they are there. That doesn't mean the UEEF is willing to make additional compromises to the Alpha (or another mecha) in order to get the Cyclone emergency/survival mecha some extra firepower. If the Alpha (or other mecha) has 50lbs plus mounting weight available the question is that HRG-70 the best use of that 50lbs? Could that 50lbs be used more effectively to give the Alpha extra armor, firepower, or propellant (this last is one of the reasons for the Beta Fighter) instead of making its emergency/survival mecha a "heavy infantry platform"?

Given all the design compromises that have gone into the Alpha, that 50lbs used to enhance the Alpha directly makes more sense as you will reduce the need to use the Cyclone. There are probably easier ways to increase the firepower of the Cyclone used for survival/emergency than trying to work out how to fit a HRG-70 into the mix. The UEEF has built Cyclones with internal GR-103s before, and we know there are places to mount additional equipment (ex, the Saddlebags, though have to modify the setup so they don't drop away, and the saddlebags do have a missile adaptation system as shown on the Silverback). Such a setup might not rival a HRG-70 in terms of endurance, but the ability to volley might be worth the trade in endurance sense you theoretically don't have to use as much time (attack/actions) to do the same amount of damage. Given known technology, it would seem to make more sense to modify the Cyclone used for survival/emergency roles to have more mini-missiles than to work out how to get it a BFG that there is no room to store it with.

well according to the silverback... Not much since it goes from the turret to the hand no problem

That is the Silverback though, we are talking about its use on the Cyclone and the Silverback has advantages over the Cyclone in this area:
-The Silverback can have a crew of 2, greatly increasing ease of any manual setup situation, where the Cyclone in an emergency/survival role will be limited to one (unless a passenger rode in the pilot's lap, but that is highly unlikely and not something to count on)
-The Silverback has ROBOTIC PS of 30 vs Cyclone's Augmented Strength boost, so the Silverback will have an easier time handling the weapon.
-The Silverback itself is roughly x2 the size of the Cyclone, so it will be easier to handle because relatively speaking the HRG-70 is smaller to the Silverback than the Cyclone (or their operators). The HRG-70 is nearly as long as the Cyclone Battloid is tall (~7ft), so to a Silverback that is ~14ft tall w/o turret.
-The Silverback example though isn't directly comparable to the Cyclone sense the robotic limbs and such could have an automated stowage routine written to get it right, where the Cyclone wouldn't since the pilot will have to do it manually, even if they are using the Cyclone mecha itself
-The Silverback is pre-configured, and the HRG-70 is belt fed which to (re-)load PER THE TEXT in those entries you need "Field Armorer", "Weapons Engineer", or "Bio-Maintenance Engineer", skills that are not common OCC/MOS skills for VF/Battloid mecha pilots (Beta MOS is the only one), so you are looking at adding a system as presented the majority of mecha pilots don't know automatically (Cyclone OCC/MOS focused is a lot better in this regard, but they likely aren't the majority of your full-size mecha pilots) that would be using the Cyclone as an emergency/survival mecha (the entire reason they are said to carry the mecha)

50lbs... most aircraft weapon systems weigh a hell of a lot more than that, to have a significant increase in armor that would matter would take a lot more than that. There is very little that would weigh 50 pounds that would significantly increase the performance of a fighter aircraft, but that 50 lbs would significantly increase the survivability of a pilot and a cyclone.

As for an alpha pilot not having the skill to use it... well veritech pilots didn't have the skill to pilot cyclones so what did the UEEF do about that??? New equipment means new training, it happens.

None of your silverback points counter my argument. The ONLY thing I used it for was that the HRG-70 on the silverback goes from a mounted, fed unit to a handeld, self contained unit, WITHOUT anyone having to hop out and reconfigure it. That tells me that the HRG-70 probably has some sort of mechanism that it connects its own feed belt without tools or the need of human interference. Now the armature it is stuck on, on the cyclone probably requires tools, unless it uses the same type of devices that the silver backs turret uses. Everything else you have on there POINTLESS. The size doesn't matter, a six foot tall human can lift 50 lbs and the cyclone can sure as heck lift 60 lbs. A person would probably need a tripod to use the weapon effectively but the cyclone should be able to use it like a modern soldier uses an anti-tank rifle.

[glitterboy2098]

Pilot Veritech and Pilot Ground Veritech both include Cyclones in their skill description. so yes, the VF pilots are trained to pilot cyclones. they do not get the MECT automatically however.

[Zer0 Kay]

Pilot Veritech and Pilot Ground Veritech both include Cyclones in their skill description. so yes, the VF pilots are trained to pilot cyclones. they do not get the MECT automatically however.

Ugh.

Okay we are talking about a non-canon change going from the 052 to the 057 as the "MOSPEADA". So the non-canonical way to fix for the necessary training is that when the new units are phased in the pilots receive new training. Just like they did canonically when the 052 became the "MOSPEADA" the pilots received Cyclone training. They didn't just Matrix it "I know Cyclone." It was added to the training received before they became pilots and was taught as additional training to the old pilots. And like this MECT would become a new skill that would be included in the training of pilots, or at least some form that would allow the pilot to pick up the big gun and run with it and later when it is safe attach it to the cyclone.

[ShadowLogan]

50lbs... most aircraft weapon systems weigh a hell of a lot more than that, to have a significant increase in armor that would matter would take a lot more than that. There is very little that would weigh 50 pounds that would significantly increase the performance of a fighter aircraft, but that 50 lbs would significantly increase the survivability of a pilot and a cyclone.

Within 2E RPG Cannon 50lbs..
-is equal to 10x Mini-missiles (which the Alpha carries, this more than doubles the capacity)
-1x SRM easily at 33lbs (if we consider that you need weight to secure/protect the gun, you might even get another SRM out of it).
-armor probably won't amount to much (if it's based on the VFA-6I, you get 3.5MDC though this assumes an average based on all locations and total dry mass), but it could still make a small difference, especially if it if the average does not hold true for the area one puts it in (ie armor weight for specific section's actual weight, which we don't have)
-of propellant/fuel would have a much higher impact on performance than a conventional aircraft since the mecha is orders of magnitude more efficient (days of constant use w/o refuelling), meaning you can get more endurance type figures or even more raw power (the Beta uses x2 the cells of an Alpha, but no better endurance, so more raw power).
--I once calculated the weight of a single PC canister to be ~4.6lbs based on the animation and 2E RPG writeups on specific show characters, that would give the Alpha an extra ~62% fuel capacity and the Beta would get ~16% more

As for an alpha pilot not having the skill to use it... well veritech pilots didn't have the skill to pilot cyclones so what did the UEEF do about that??? New equipment means new training, it happens.

I am not saying the Veritech pilots do not have the skill to use the Cyclone (pilot skill allows them) or fire the HRG-70 (lack of WP does not stop anyone from firing a modern weapon per the rules, the lack of WP also prevents reloading), I am saying that they do not automatically have skill(s) necessary to load the HRG-70, which they would have to do if it has been disconnected as you are suggesting. They don't even have an appropriate WP to make them proficient at it's use (so they don't get bonuses to strike w/it).

The ONLY thing I used it for was that the HRG-70 on the silverback goes from a mounted, fed unit to a handeld, self contained unit, WITHOUT anyone having to hop out and reconfigure it.

The belt feed goes into the gun, so if the Silverback switches it to handheld use, the belt will follow/extend out. As described though neither the Silverback nor the Devastator are breaking the feed connection or starting with a broken connection, they make it a point to state the ammo is stored inside the mecha.

"fed from an ammo drum mounted inside the Cyclone on whichever side the weapon is loaded." (pg161 Manga, VR-057)
"fed through the weapon by a disintegrating link belt fed from an ammo cannister mounted inside the vehicle." (VM-9H pg173 Managa)

Yes the UEEF can adapt and add additional training to their mecha pilots (extra 2 skills), but it would seem to be easier to make a Cyclone more optimized to evade the enemy until rescue than to engage them directly. And if direct engagement is a concern to increase the firepower there are more effective solutions than an HRG-70 in the survival kit and retraining. Engineering wise they could:
-provide additional mini-missile launchers like the GR-103s (VR-057 has ammo bins for the gun, so they can be changed into launchers), or based on the MM-12 on the Silverback (this sacrifices the saddle bags equipment)
-modifying the EP-37 into a forearm system (it hits harder and goes just as far as the HRG-70) with a larger magazine (which is the one drawback against the weapon), it is also more accurate than the HRG-70 (strike bonus), and takes advantage of existing skills.
-using base line or improved version (better performance in range/power/payload) of the EP-40, it is also more accurate than the HRG-70 (strike bonus), plus this should fit in the existing bay w/o issue and takes advantage of existing skills.
-H-260 either base line or improved like the EP-40 (more in terms of range/power), though unlike the EP-37/40 it doesn't come w/strike bonus, so may not be as attractive, we also know it can be stowed on the Cyclone hub station erasing any worries it can't fit in the bay
-the RL-6 and maybe even the EP-37, might be able to fit onto the forearm station for stowage or produce "carbine" versions (means reduced range, but it would be shorter)

The size doesn't matter, a six foot tall human can lift 50 lbs and the cyclone can sure as heck lift 60 lbs.

I do not say that the 50lbs can't be handled by any of the actors, but the size does matter though as it can influence how easy it is to move into position alone as the length of the device and how it balances might require both hands to move/hold it into position, and another set of hands to secure it (approach could be different between vehicle mode and battloid mode to), and it still doesn't even consider that you have to load the weapon now.

[Zer0 Kay]

50lbs... most aircraft weapon systems weigh a hell of a lot more than that, to have a significant increase in armor that would matter would take a lot more than that. There is very little that would weigh 50 pounds that would significantly increase the performance of a fighter aircraft, but that 50 lbs would significantly increase the survivability of a pilot and a cyclone.

Within 2E RPG Cannon 50lbs..
-is equal to 10x Mini-missiles (which the Alpha carries, this more than doubles the capacity)Where are they going to be stored? are we removing sensors from the head for this? Are we adding exterior launcher making it so that the transformation can't happen? Plus additional launchers would weigh more than 5 lbs decreasing from the 10... as would any magazine to hold the 10 rockets if they were going to be split between the two launchers. Ten mini-missiles is not a significant increase damage wise, considering it seems like those launchers are a standoff weapon in total 400 MD capability, IN COMPARISON to an HRG-70, isn't going to do much it takes out one and most of another wraith or two troopers or an enforcer plus it can't be called to hit the Invid Eye.
-1x SRM easily at 33lbs (if we consider that you need weight to secure/protect the gun, you might even get another SRM out of it).1... REALLY? SIGNIFICANT
-armor probably won't amount to much (if it's based on the VFA-6I, you get 3.5MDC though this assumes an average based on all locations and total dry mass), but it could still make a small difference, especially if it if the average does not hold true for the area one puts it in (ie armor weight for specific section's actual weight, which we don't have)
-of propellant/fuel would have a much higher impact on performance than a conventional aircraft since the mecha is orders of magnitude more efficient (days of constant use w/o refuelling), meaning you can get more endurance type figures or even more raw power (the Beta uses x2 the cells of an Alpha, but no better endurance, so more raw power).
--I once calculated the weight of a single PC canister to be ~4.6lbs based on the animation and 2E RPG writeups on specific show characters, that would give the Alpha an extra ~62% fuel capacity and the Beta would get ~16% moreWith this one I acquiesce, this is MOST assuredly an excellent use of weight.

As for an alpha pilot not having the skill to use it... well veritech pilots didn't have the skill to pilot cyclones so what did the UEEF do about that??? New equipment means new training, it happens.

I am not saying the Veritech pilots do not have the skill to use the Cyclone (pilot skill allows them) or fire the HRG-70 (lack of WP does not stop anyone from firing a modern weapon per the rules, the lack of WP also prevents reloading), I am saying that they do not automatically have skill(s) necessary to load the HRG-70, which they would have to do if it has been disconnected as you are suggesting. They don't even have an appropriate WP to make them proficient at it's use (so they don't get bonuses to strike w/it).NOT THE CYCLONE! I am using that as an example. If x is introduced into standard equipment for a given class then x will be added to the training regimen. For UEDF to UEEF pilots the x was cyclones IF the 057 replaces the 052 the x for Sentinel UEEF to Shadow UEEF pilots would be a WP HRG-70 which would include how to mount the weapon and connect the belt feed. You are CORRECT that they don't automatically have the skills, just like the UEDF pilots didn't automatically have the skills to pilot cyclone. My point is NOT about piloting cyclones it IS about the way training would change as it has for pilots between UEDF to UEEF. Something new comes up the classes change to accommodate the new skill requirements.

The ONLY thing I used it for was that the HRG-70 on the silverback goes from a mounted, fed unit to a handeld, self contained unit, WITHOUT anyone having to hop out and reconfigure it.

The belt feed goes into the gun, so if the Silverback switches it to handheld use, the belt will follow/extend out. As described though neither the Silverback nor the Devastator are breaking the feed connection or starting with a broken connection, they make it a point to state the ammo is stored inside the mecha.

"fed from an ammo drum mounted inside the Cyclone on whichever side the weapon is loaded." (pg161 Manga, VR-057)
"fed through the weapon by a disintegrating link belt fed from an ammo cannister mounted inside the vehicle." (VM-9H pg173 Managa)
and a soldier with the proper WP for a weapon like say a M-60 would know how to mount it onto the pintle mount of a HMMV and how to feed the disintegrating belt

Yes the UEEF can adapt and add additional training to their mecha pilots (extra 2 skills) why are you getting two? as stated above a person with WP Heavy knows how to mount an M-60 or an MK-19 to a HMMV's pintle mount and how to feed a disintegrating belt, but it would seem to be easier to make a Cyclone more optimized to evade the enemy until rescue than to engage them directly. And if direct engagement is a concern to increase the firepower there are more effective solutions than an HRG-70 in the survival kit and retraining. Engineering wise they could:
-provide additional mini-missile launchers like the GR-103s (VR-057 has ammo bins for the gun, so they can be changed into launchers), PERSONALLY I have a variant of the 057 called the Switchblade, that should probably be an 040 series, it has the 103s, adds the 057's sensor drum under the launcher, adds the rail gun and substitutes an H-260 for a CADS. However, missiles are hardly a precision weapon, no called shot to Invid eyes, and have a longer time for max damage capacity (meaning in order to do get the 2080 Max MDC permitted by reloading using rounds in saddle bag, which is 40 rounds, it would take 3 actions to fire the 12 mini-missiles already loaded, 12 actions to load 12 mini-missiles, one at a time, another 3 actions to launch again, another 12 to load, that's 24 from bags, another 3 to fire, another 12 to reload, that's 36, another 3 to fire, 4 to load the last 4 missiles and 1 action to shoot them so that is 53 actions for a possible 2080 MD to the HRG-70s 41.6 actions at max damage to reach 2080or based on the MM-12 on the Silverback (this sacrifices the saddle bags equipment)
-modifying the EP-37 into a forearm system (it hits harder and goes just as far as the HRG-70) with a larger magazine (which is the one drawback against the weapon), it is also more accurate than the HRG-70 (strike bonus), and takes advantage of existing skills.same range, better performance less ammo, is that what your trying to say? That less ammo gives the EP-37 1200 MD to the HRG-70s 5000MD in burst or 6000 in single shots. And we can see how taking advantage of skills has been a contributing factor to UEED education... as in it never has been before
-EP-40using base line or improved version (better performance in range/power/payload) of the EP-40, it is also more accurate than the HRG-70 (strike bonus), plus this should fit in the existing bay w/o issue and takes advantage of existing skills. only better in single shot damage
-H-260 either base line or improved like the EP-40 (more in terms of range/power), though unlike the EP-37/40 it doesn't come w/strike bonus, so may not be as attractive, we also know it can be stowed on the Cyclone hub station erasing any worries it can't fit in the bay uses protoculture and worse range and damage in burst
-the RL-6 and maybe even the EP-37, might be able to fit onto the forearm station for stowage or produce "carbine" versions (means reduced range, but it would be shorter)
The RL-6 does. It has no "burst" capability and can't be used for called shots and strangely the RL-6 ammo capacity is much greater than that of the GR-103, because while the GR-103 has 12 in launcher and the saddle bags can carry 200lbs worth of ammo for 40 missiles or a total of 52 missiles according to the RL-6's write up a fully loaded magazine weighs ONLY 8 lbs!!! So the saddle bags can carry 8 magazines each with 6 shots for a total of 156 shots!!!!!! What the heck? Are the RL-6's magazines blue and look like police boxes?
The number of possible kills for the HRG-70 far exceeds most of the weapons the only one coming close is the H-260 able to kill (at max damage) 66.4 wraiths to the HRG's 80 with single shots compare to the 44.27 and 66.7 with bursts

The size doesn't matter, a six foot tall human can lift 50 lbs and the cyclone can sure as heck lift 60 lbs.

I do not say that the 50lbs can't be handled by any of the actors, but the size does matter though as it can influence how easy it is to move into position alone as the length of the device and how it balances might require both hands to move/hold it into position, and another set of hands to secure it (approach could be different between vehicle mode and battloid mode to), and it still doesn't even consider that you have to load the weapon now.that all depends on things we do not have info on. I can lift 50 in one hand long enough to fasten a screw to provide a pivot point AND reduce felt weight in order to get the rest of an unwieldy object loaded. But they probably use some of the same tech used to fasten the gunpods, meaning there isn't likely much bolt and nut action going on.

[ShadowLogan]

Where are they going to be stored? are we removing sensors from the head for this? Are we adding exterior launcher making it so that the transformation can't happen? Plus additional launchers would weigh more than 5 lbs decreasing from the 10... as would any magazine to hold the 10 rockets if they were going to be split between the two launchers. Ten mini-missiles is not a significant increase damage wise, considering it seems like those launchers are a standoff weapon in total 400 MD capability, IN COMPARISON to an HRG-70, isn't going to do much it takes out one and most of another wraith or two troopers or an enforcer plus it can't be called to hit the Invid Eye.

There are exterior locations that can be used that do not interfere with the transformation sequence, what we know is that the Cyclone bay hatch can not be used because it would interfere. Missiles don't necessarily need fancy launchers, they could use simpler rail setup.

The HRG-70 though is "dead weight" at this point and doesn't contribute to the mecha's capabilities, the only time it factors in is when the pilot has to breakout the Cyclone. So 10 Mini Missiles or 1 or 2 SRMs (or even tiny increase in armor) certainly are worth more in engagements to the mecha pilot than an HRG-70 to be used with his emergency/survival mecha, any one of which could be the factor in determining if he/she needs to break out the Cyclone (if only I had another shot or my armor held up a bit better for ex).

[quote=ZerO Kay"]You are CORRECT that they don't automatically have the skills, just like the UEDF pilots didn't automatically have the skills to pilot cyclone. My point is NOT about piloting cyclones it IS about the way training would change as it has for pilots between UEDF to UEEF. Something new comes up the classes change to accommodate the new skill requirements.[/quote]
I understand that pilots and soldiers will be trained as new equipment becomes available. However the UEEF nt-B/VT pilot OCCs/MOSs lack the training to use the Cyclone to its fullest extent as they are currently defined, which actually makes sense. By all indications they are not expected to use the Cyclone offensively, but rather defensively until they can be extracted or procure another mecha.

and a soldier with the proper WP for a weapon like say a M-60 would know how to mount it onto the pintle mount of a HMMV and how to feed the disintegrating belt

Normally, yes that would be true that the WP covers reloading, but that does not appear to apply here as the text for both the HRG-70 and the HRG-140 variant explicitly state that you need one of three specific skills to reload the weapon (mentioned in previous posts and again below) and no mention of a WP still being appropriate.

why are you getting two? as stated above a person with WP Heavy knows how to mount an M-60 or an MK-19 to a HMMV's pintle mount and how to feed a disintegrating bel

Mecha Combat Elite (this is to use the Cyclone most effectively, until a form of "Basic" returns)
Field Armor OR Weapons Engineer OR Biomechanical Maintenance Skill (called out in text to load/reload the weapon pg173,166, 161 in manga edition page assignment)
WP: Heavy does not include Railguns, you have to use WP: Heavy MD Weapons and as HRG-70/140 text stipulates you can not use this skill to reload

So you are looking at 2 or 3 skills to make them a competent part-time Cyclone Heavy infantry trooper on top of being a competent full-size mecha pilot in their regular duties. Which likely means something will have to give, and I suspect it would be the part-time role.

However, missiles are hardly a precision weapon, no called shot to Invid eyes, and have a longer time for max damage capacity

You can't do called shots with bursts per the rules (pg 239manga "A 'Called Shot' can only be tried with a single 'sniper-style' shot, not a burst or when shooting wild"), the only exception is if you are firing a pulse-bursts are the exception ('pg240manga "This happens so fast it is not even considered to be a burst, but a single, heavy blast"), so the HRG-70 isn't any better in this case as it fires regulars bursts and not pulses by all indication.

The Missiles though have the potential to cut down encounter times due to their ability to be volleyed resulting in greater damage per attack action. 12 AP Mini-Missiles can do 120-480 in one attack, vs taking between 3-10 attacks to do a little bit more to land within the range. This doesn't consider misses, or defensive actions needing to be taken in either case, though the odds tend to mean in the long run the more attacks approach will be longer still as misses are more likely to happen in this scenario.

same range, better performance less ammo, is that what your trying to say? That less ammo gives the EP-37 1200 MD to the HRG-70s 5000MD in burst or 6000 in single shots. And we can see how taking advantage of skills has been a contributing factor to UEED education... as in it never has been before

The only draw back to the EP-37 over the HRG-70 is payload, but that is something that can be addressed by giving it a larger magazine or even spare magazines (or even have it run off of a PC fuel cell like the Alpha/Beta/Cyclone use instead of the energy magazine).

only better in single shot damage

The HRG-70 has an advantage in range over the EP-40 too, but the stock version does have its advantages. The EP-40 has higher strike bonuses, meaning it will miss less often than the HRG-70 firing its bursts, even though it is limited to single round blasts. And as a pistol, it's applicable WP provides better Strike Bonus, which means a more experienced WP: E-Pistol character can potentially always hit if under 750ft (at level 11 IINM, they would always roll 8 or better due to bonuses, and they get bonuses after Level 11...) where the HRG-70 can't do that with WP: H-MD-W (always a chance that bonuses fall short of the required 8 to hit even at Level 13 when bonuses stop). Of course the target can dodge/parry (roll doesn't apply to either as a defensive action).

[quote=ZerO Kay"] strangely the RL-6 ammo capacity is much greater than that of the GR-103,[/quote]
In the launcher itself, no. The RL-6 only carries 6 rounds and the GR-103 has 6 or 12 rounds depending on how one counts the GR-103 pair. Spares in the Saddlebags of course are an option, though I doubt you can actually fit 100lbs of Mini-Missiles into the stated size of the saddlebags based on the Silverback's MM-12 system (which amounts to a modified saddlebag in the text) only holds 6 per "bag". Volume also has to be considered here, not just the weight/mass.

The number of possible kills for the HRG-70 far exceeds most of the weapons the only one coming close

That capacity may be needed for Infantry Cyclones, but it certainly is not needed for the emergency/survival role for individuals not expected to act as infantry/heavy infantry.

that all depends on things we do not have info on. I can lift 50 in one hand long enough to fasten a screw to provide a pivot point AND reduce felt weight in order to get the rest of an unwieldy object loaded. But they probably use some of the same tech used to fasten the gunpods, meaning there isn't likely much bolt and nut action going on.

I agree there is info we do not have, but we know the weapon weighs 50lbs and makes up a good portion of the Battloid mode's nearly 7ft height. We don't know how that balances and how controllable it is as a result.

[Zer0 Kay]

Where are they going to be stored? are we removing sensors from the head for this? Are we adding exterior launcher making it so that the transformation can't happen? Plus additional launchers would weigh more than 5 lbs decreasing from the 10... as would any magazine to hold the 10 rockets if they were going to be split between the two launchers. Ten mini-missiles is not a significant increase damage wise, considering it seems like those launchers are a standoff weapon in total 400 MD capability, IN COMPARISON to an HRG-70, isn't going to do much it takes out one and most of another wraith or two troopers or an enforcer plus it can't be called to hit the Invid Eye.

There are exterior locations that can be used that do not interfere with the transformation sequence, what we know is that the Cyclone bay hatch can not be used because it would interfere. Missiles don't necessarily need fancy launchers, they could use simpler rail setup.

The HRG-70 though is "dead weight" at this point and doesn't contribute to the mecha's capabilities, the only time it factors in is when the pilot has to breakout the Cyclone. So 10 Mini Missiles or 1 or 2 SRMs (or even tiny increase in armor) certainly are worth more in engagements to the mecha pilot than an HRG-70 to be used with his emergency/survival mecha, any one of which could be the factor in determining if he/she needs to break out the Cyclone (if only I had another shot or my armor held up a bit better for ex).

You are CORRECT that they don't automatically have the skills, just like the UEDF pilots didn't automatically have the skills to pilot cyclone. My point is NOT about piloting cyclones it IS about the way training would change as it has for pilots between UEDF to UEEF. Something new comes up the classes change to accommodate the new skill requirements.

I understand that pilots and soldiers will be trained as new equipment becomes available. However the UEEF nt-B/VT pilot OCCs/MOSs lack the training to use the Cyclone to its fullest extent as they are currently defined, which actually makes sense. By all indications they are not expected to use the Cyclone offensively, but rather defensively until they can be extracted or procure another mecha.

and a soldier with the proper WP for a weapon like say a M-60 would know how to mount it onto the pintle mount of a HMMV and how to feed the disintegrating belt

Normally, yes that would be true that the WP covers reloading, but that does not appear to apply here as the text for both the HRG-70 and the HRG-140 variant explicitly state that you need one of three specific skills to reload the weapon (mentioned in previous posts and again below) and no mention of a WP still being appropriate.

why are you getting two? as stated above a person with WP Heavy knows how to mount an M-60 or an MK-19 to a HMMV's pintle mount and how to feed a disintegrating bel

Mecha Combat Elite (this is to use the Cyclone most effectively, until a form of "Basic" returns)
Field Armor OR Weapons Engineer OR Biomechanical Maintenance Skill (called out in text to load/reload the weapon pg173,166, 161 in manga edition page assignment)
WP: Heavy does not include Railguns, you have to use WP: Heavy MD Weapons and as HRG-70/140 text stipulates you can not use this skill to reload

So you are looking at 2 or 3 skills to make them a competent part-time Cyclone Heavy infantry trooper on top of being a competent full-size mecha pilot in their regular duties. Which likely means something will have to give, and I suspect it would be the part-time role.

However, missiles are hardly a precision weapon, no called shot to Invid eyes, and have a longer time for max damage capacity

You can't do called shots with bursts per the rules (pg 239manga "A 'Called Shot' can only be tried with a single 'sniper-style' shot, not a burst or when shooting wild"), the only exception is if you are firing a pulse-bursts are the exception ('pg240manga "This happens so fast it is not even considered to be a burst, but a single, heavy blast"), so the HRG-70 isn't any better in this case as it fires regulars bursts and not pulses by all indication.

The Missiles though have the potential to cut down encounter times due to their ability to be volleyed resulting in greater damage per attack action. 12 AP Mini-Missiles can do 120-480 in one attack, vs taking between 3-10 attacks to do a little bit more to land within the range. This doesn't consider misses, or defensive actions needing to be taken in either case, though the odds tend to mean in the long run the more attacks approach will be longer still as misses are more likely to happen in this scenario.

same range, better performance less ammo, is that what your trying to say? That less ammo gives the EP-37 1200 MD to the HRG-70s 5000MD in burst or 6000 in single shots. And we can see how taking advantage of skills has been a contributing factor to UEED education... as in it never has been before

The only draw back to the EP-37 over the HRG-70 is payload, but that is something that can be addressed by giving it a larger magazine or even spare magazines (or even have it run off of a PC fuel cell like the Alpha/Beta/Cyclone use instead of the energy magazine).

only better in single shot damage

The HRG-70 has an advantage in range over the EP-40 too, but the stock version does have its advantages. The EP-40 has higher strike bonuses, meaning it will miss less often than the HRG-70 firing its bursts, even though it is limited to single round blasts. And as a pistol, it's applicable WP provides better Strike Bonus, which means a more experienced WP: E-Pistol character can potentially always hit if under 750ft (at level 11 IINM, they would always roll 8 or better due to bonuses, and they get bonuses after Level 11...) where the HRG-70 can't do that with WP: H-MD-W (always a chance that bonuses fall short of the required 8 to hit even at Level 13 when bonuses stop). Of course the target can dodge/parry (roll doesn't apply to either as a defensive action).

strangely the RL-6 ammo capacity is much greater than that of the GR-103,

In the launcher itself, no. The RL-6 only carries 6 rounds and the GR-103 has 6 or 12 rounds depending on how one counts the GR-103 pair. Spares in the Saddlebags of course are an option, though I doubt you can actually fit 100lbs of Mini-Missiles into the stated size of the saddlebags based on the Silverback's MM-12 system (which amounts to a modified saddlebag in the text) only holds 6 per "bag". Volume also has to be considered here, not just the weight/mass.

The number of possible kills for the HRG-70 far exceeds most of the weapons the only one coming close

That capacity may be needed for Infantry Cyclones, but it certainly is not needed for the emergency/survival role for individuals not expected to act as infantry/heavy infantry.

that all depends on things we do not have info on. I can lift 50 in one hand long enough to fasten a screw to provide a pivot point AND reduce felt weight in order to get the rest of an unwieldy object loaded. But they probably use some of the same tech used to fasten the gunpods, meaning there isn't likely much bolt and nut action going on.

I agree there is info we do not have, but we know the weapon weighs 50lbs and makes up a good portion of the Battloid mode's nearly 7ft height. We don't know how that balances and how controllable it is as a result.

There is no such thing as a simple rail system. the rails seen under an Apache's pylon is far from simple as are every rail mounted externally on usaf aircraft. THEY ARE NOT JUST RAILS.

saddle bags hold 50 per side bag and 100 on the top box for 200 labs or 40, 5 lb mini missiles. the boxes on the silverback contain modular launch electronic sonic can be detached, cabling and are more armored than the saddlebags.

if the used was interested in a simple get away system, they'd equip all alphas with the VR-038. If they were really interested in that they'd develop it as part of the ejection system so a pilot doesn't eject and then walk back to his veritech that is leaving a wonderfully stealthy plume of smoke and hope the system to extract the cyclone isn't damaged and then have to "unbox" it which takes longer to do than it does to transform from cycle to PA. An overall idiotic concept... unless the UEEF expected pilots to act as troops when downed.

Ammunition IS expected for survival regardless of class. the more ammo the more likely your survival when compared to a weapon with limited ammo.

I understand the RL-6 only has six shots and the 103 has has 12. I was referring to the ammount that can be stored in total with saddlebags BY weight
the mini missile according to the books weighs 5 lbs while a fully loaded RL-6 magazine weighs 8 lbs.

Last post to you since you like doing partial quotes which completely change then meaning of what was said.

[ShadowLogan]

There is no such thing as a simple rail system. the rails seen under an Apache's pylon is far from simple as are every rail mounted externally on usaf aircraft. THEY ARE NOT JUST RAILS.

Compared to the internal launchers the Alpha and Beta uses, they would certainly be "simple" in comparison as they don't have a blast plate or launch door(s) to open, or the extra weight from the tube, potential feed mechanism for reloads, etc.

saddle bags hold 50 per side bag and 100 on the top box for 200 labs or 40, 5 lb mini missiles. the boxes on the silverback contain modular launch electronic sonic can be detached, cabling and are more armored than the saddlebags.

Actually your information is incorrect. The side bags each hold 100lbs (20) and the top box is 50lbs (10). Should also consider that the use of mini-missiles also means you can switch to more effective ammo (like Plasma) and some of those missile options out range the HRG-70 (like AP & Plasma). If it wasn't for the weight limit, the bags have the volume to hold a lot more mini-missiles even if we don't know the lengths (and use the RL-6's diameter, or one of the bigger types)...

if the used was interested in a simple get away system, they'd equip all alphas with the VR-038

However the VR-038 and VR-042 are being phased out with limited (if any) new production. That means they are not ideal for this role in the long run. So eventually they would have to switch over to the VR-05x series and configure it for get away (which they have done). They likely want to leave some room to defend themselves with, but they probably also don't expect the pilot to have to deal with large formations allowing them to use the "lighter" weapons load. One thing to keep in mind though is that for every pound/kg going to the Cyclone, what is the carrying mecha potentially giving up?

If they were really interested in that they'd develop it as part of the ejection system

Oh I agree with this. The Cyclone is a poor design in concept and execution, and also negatively effected at least two mecha. The Alpha has to make room for the Cyclone, so what did it sacrifice for the ability, it might have also lead to the need for the Beta (which due to the way it connects has poor aerodynamics).

Ammunition IS expected for survival regardless of class. the more ammo the more likely your survival when compared to a weapon with limited ammo.

I agree ammunition IS expected, but how much is really expected to be needed in this role? The extra survival ammo you carry may have to come at the expense of primary's performance. If large volume of ammunition is needed, then energy weapons would be more attractive than 20mm railgun ammo or mini-missiles, not only from a physical space occupied perspective, but the mecha could also be used/setup to recharge said weapon(s)'s magazine(s) in the long run. Odds are also that energy magazines can be made to take up less volume than the railgun ammo (likely) or mini-missiles (EP-40 vs GR-97 in terms of payload damage does point this way).

[Tiree]

With how much ammunition the cast of New Generation goes through, I am not sure that these missile systems aren't much more complicated than making your own Shotgun Shell.

[Jefffar]

What, you've never heard of a Missile Tree?

[Zer0 Kay]

With how much ammunition the cast of New Generation goes through, I am not sure that these missile systems aren't much more complicated than making your own Shotgun Shell.

Shotgun shell? Sure they aren't just tossing whatever they find into the missile silos which are actual Mr. Missile missile makers? Kind of like the Mr. Fusion but for military applications. Breaks down material into base components and assembles a missile. Or the TMNT version just toss junk onto the silos and it ejects the junk out.

[Zer0 Kay]

What, you've never heard of a Missile Tree?

Isn't that the store where you can buy anything for a missile? Rock, arrow, sling stone, thermal nuclear ICBM. Doesn't matter what kind, it gets you one item in the store.

[glitterboy2098]

keep in mind we see them working with resistance forces early on (like during the yellow dancer concert), so odds are they were getting some supplies that way. later they had stop overs at places like soldiertown (where you can bet they arranged to obtain some more supplies), the town in secret route (where the mayor gave them supplies and a map in return for them not taking revenge over the fake maps), and we see them salvaging often (like Point-K, the military base where they got the boats, or in 'denver'.) they probably also were supplied with some gear by the old geezers in the garfish, prior to deciding to attack the Invid commtower.

etc.

[Seto Kaiba]

What, you've never heard of a Missile Tree?

Isn't that the store where you can buy anything for a missile? Rock, arrow, sling stone, thermal nuclear ICBM. Doesn't matter what kind, it gets you one item in the store.

Nah, I'm sure that's something to do with a Zentradi holiday... presents under the missile tree, y'know?

[Chronicler]

keep in mind we see them working with resistance forces early on (like during the yellow dancer concert), so odds are they were getting some supplies that way. later they had stop overs at places like soldiertown (where you can bet they arranged to obtain some more supplies), the town in secret route (where the mayor gave them supplies and a map in return for them not taking revenge over the fake maps), and we see them salvaging often (like Point-K, the military base where they got the boats, or in 'denver'.) they probably also were supplied with some gear by the old geezers in the garfish, prior to deciding to attack the Invid commtower.

etc.

I swear Robotech universe runs on the power of rule of cool.

Anyways would it be possible to create a carbine version of the HRG-70 somewhere down the line? I mean given technology development things get smaller down the line. Even then they have direct energy weapons down to pistol size so is it far fetch to have a rail gun (or even coil gun) to the size of an M-60?