Alpha/Beta Backup Fusion Geneator Questions

[ShadowLogan]

Two independent questions here concerning the backup fusion generators mentioned in the 2E main book on the Alpha and Beta (pg102/117-8).

Question 1: Would the backup fusion system be included in the Condor, Conbat, and Bioroid Interceptor as "The [insert list] has the same avionics and equipment package as the [insert Alpha or Beta as indicated in each] Fighter?" which is basically what the text says at the end of each entry when it identifies equipment and such, though that text could be reference to just the equipment on pgs 97-100 & 113-6.

Question 2: Hypothetically speaking: Assuming that the Backup system and Primary System can be engaged at the same time, what would the effects be in terms of performance?
Would the Alpha and Beta receive a boost to flying speed (and by how much 33%, more, less) or would there be no impact at all?

I would think that if the systems both use separate fuel, even if that exhaust product is injected into the main system's exhaust, it would improve the amount of thrust being generated and alter the flying speed. Basically the system is being used as an "after burner".

[Riftmaker]

Two independent questions here concerning the backup fusion generators mentioned in the 2E main book on the Alpha and Beta (pg102/117-8).

Question 1: Would the backup fusion system be included in the Condor, Conbat, and Bioroid Interceptor as "The [insert list] has the same avionics and equipment package as the [insert Alpha or Beta as indicated in each] Fighter?" which is basically what the text says at the end of each entry when it identifies equipment and such, though that text could be reference to just the equipment on pgs 97-100 & 113-6.

Question 2: Hypothetically speaking: Assuming that the Backup system and Primary System can be engaged at the same time, what would the effects be in terms of performance?
Would the Alpha and Beta receive a boost to flying speed (and by how much 33%, more, less) or would there be no impact at all?

I would think that if the systems both use separate fuel, even if that exhaust product is injected into the main system's exhaust, it would improve the amount of thrust being generated and alter the flying speed. Basically the system is being used as an "after burner".

Since protoculture is mentioned as being hugely more powerful Im not sure. You could have some kind of super cannon or something that needed both systems on?

[Seto Kaiba]

Question 1: Would the backup fusion system be included in the Condor, Conbat, and Bioroid Interceptor as "The [insert list] has the same avionics and equipment package as the [insert Alpha or Beta as indicated in each] Fighter?" which is basically what the text says at the end of each entry when it identifies equipment and such, though that text could be reference to just the equipment on pgs 97-100 & 113-6.

My gut reaction would be that the "Sensor Suite and Other Equipment" notes at the end of those entries refers only to those items in that specific "Standard Avionics and Other Features" section that covers things that aren't already in the main entry. Since what's in the Power System entry doesn't mention a fusion backup for those three, I would assume they do not have it.

Question 2: Hypothetically speaking: Assuming that the Backup system and Primary System can be engaged at the same time, what would the effects be in terms of performance?
Would the Alpha and Beta receive a boost to flying speed (and by how much 33%, more, less) or would there be no impact at all?

All things considered, I would assume there would be no significant effect on performance because the backup power system has an aggressively limited operating time and very low output. It might provide a small burst of speed at best, but it wouldn't work if the fighter transformed.

[Tiree]

I would state that the Fusion Generators are already being utilized on the Alpha/Beta and therefore there would be no boost. They may not be running at 100% but are utilized in conjunction with the Protoculture.

As for the Condor/Combat/Bioroid Interceptor. the answer to that is questionable, but I would err on the side of Yes. It can be used in order to keep the avionics running when powered down.

[Alrik Vas]

The conbat and others were developed in the game world before or after the alpha?

If it's before, it may have been in a time when they didn't assume a non-proto back up should be necessary. If they were developed after (as I recall, the alpha.had a long dev time) then I'd say they likely have fusion back up.

Unless we're applying Admiral Hunter logic, then even the Alpha's back up is a misprint.

[ShadowLogan]

My gut reaction would be that the "Sensor Suite and Other Equipment" notes at the end of those entries refers only to those items in that specific "Standard Avionics and Other Features" section that covers things that aren't already in the main entry. Since what's in the Power System entry doesn't mention a fusion backup for those three, I would assume they do not have it

That would be my instinct as well, but when you look at timeline (below) and relationships it can become more murky for the two older systems.

All things considered, I would assume there would be no significant effect on performance because the backup power system has an aggressively limited operating time and very low output. It might provide a small burst of speed at best, but it wouldn't work if the fighter transformed

I agree on the duration, my thinking is that it would be used like afterburners are commonly used past/today in military jet fighters, when needed.

However I do not agree on the performance hit. The Alpha and Beta still retain VTOL operation with the backup system, which requires a T/W of greater than 1, but it doesn't impart the same velocity (does that mean the T/W in this mode is ~1/3 of regular?). If the Alpha suddenly got an extra 16,700+kg of thrust, that should impact the Alpha's performance. By all indications the VFA-6Z shows that an increase in thrust will increase performance (some of which was also the result of aerodynamic improvements to), this is also the premise of afterburners allowing fighter craft to go supersonic/faster (also the basic concept behind NTR variant known as LANTR).

Looking at Gearsonline's Mospedia section, the -Z (vs -I) is ~9% faster in Fighter Mode (at Mach), with just ~6% increase in thrust from ATF-series engines (and JG-series are ~11% increase in shp). The -H/I model in this situation would be seeing an ~87% increase in thrust (if all of it is available) under this situation and the -Z would be like ~82%, far more than the -Z is getting from its improved engines and increased speed and we use the out-of-universe numbers. That thrust increase is actually more than the F-16 & F-4 & F/A/-18 & F-15 (stopped checking at this point) gets from afterburners vs dry thrust which where around ~50-60%, which allows for them to all go supersonic (multi-Mach IINM). So the Alpha in this scenario (assuming all of the backup thrust is available) should drastically increase the velocity/performance.

The conbat and others were developed in the game world before or after the alpha?

If it's before, it may have been in a time when they didn't assume a non-proto back up should be necessary. If they were developed after (as I recall, the alpha.had a long dev time) then I'd say they likely have fusion back up.

Gimmie a second, I'll check my 2E RPG (per-text) RT Mecha Timeline for dates (everything but Marines is in it):
2012: Alpha's origins in the Wraith Drone program
2013: Conbat First Flight
2015: Wraith Program canceled, VF-X-6 testing
2017: Plans for final prototype (Alpha)
2020: Alpha begins Flight Testing, Beta counterpart quickly developed
2022: Beta Shelved after testing
2022: Condor Competitor to the Beta, shelved, and re-tasked into the nt-B version
2025: Condor nt-bs, first batch assigned to 10th MD (who also are said to use 1st Generation Alphas)
2031: Alpha mass production begins
2035 (by): Conbat surpass lifespan of airframe and begins to suffer mechanical failures
2035 (by): Renewed calls for Alpha booster and Conbat replacement
2035: Mass production of Condor and Conbat ends, limited production on an as needed basis continues
2036: Beta put into testing
2037: Beta declared operational
2037: Conbat officially retired
2037 (Post): Bioroid Interceptor program approval (after arrival at Tirol)

The Conbat comes from the time when the Alpha was in its infancy so could go either way, the Condor is based on a competitor to the Beta and so would have had to meet similar requirements (though that was the -7 version and not the -9, what actually changed between them isn't known), and the Bioroid is well down the line (but also re-manufactured IINM, so it might not have room for the backup system).

[Seto Kaiba]

That would be my instinct as well, but when you look at timeline (below) and relationships it can become more murky for the two older systems.

Honestly, I don't see any cause for confusion there... the production timeline isn't referenced, and the backup fusion power plant is not mentioned in power system portion of the standard equipment, only on the specific Alpha airframes (which, if you believe these Alpha variants in the book are only the current ones, would mean older models may not have had the backup power system at all.)

I agree on the duration, my thinking is that it would be used like afterburners are commonly used past/today in military jet fighters, when needed.

Possibly... though afterburners normally draw on the main fuel supply, so they're always available as long as the fighter has the fuel to burn. This idea for a separate system strikes me as probably being a little unreliable/unsafe... especially if the backup system is throttling itself to 1/3 of the Alpha's normal performance.

However I do not agree on the performance hit. The Alpha and Beta still retain VTOL operation with the backup system, which requires a T/W of greater than 1, but it doesn't impart the same velocity (does that mean the T/W in this mode is ~1/3 of regular?).

As a fusion reaction naturally produces extremely high temperatures, my assumption for the reason that the Alpha would be able to use the backup plant for vertical takeoff or landing but would otherwise be restricted to 1/3 power would be that the fighter's fusion backup generator has a limited cooling system that can sustainably handle 1/3 the output of the Alpha's engines but the VTOL thrust requirement pushes the generator past the safe operating limits of the cooling system (so it's only good for a minute or two).

[Alrik Vas]

Even if only good for a minute, that can be substantial during combat.

[Seto Kaiba]

Even if only good for a minute, that can be substantial during combat.

Potentially... though it's worth noting that I'm assuming the backup fusion reactor possesses an independent cooling system. It likely would be tied into the same coolant system as the engines and/or protoculture generator (depending on how the Alpha's engine design works in Robotech) which could potentially lead to the engines overheating or being throttled by the control computer to prevent overheating (or worse).

That'd probably be how I treated it in-game... you could use the backup reactor to boost flight performance in fighter mode, but that would prohibit transformation, impose an accuracy penalty for guns, and they'd have to roll against a percentage chance of overheat that went up with each melee.

[ShadowLogan]

Honestly, I don't see any cause for confusion there... the production timeline isn't referenced, and the backup fusion power plant is not mentioned in power system portion of the standard equipment, only on the specific Alpha airframes (which, if you believe these Alpha variants in the book are only the current ones, would mean older models may not have had the backup power system at all.)

Given we don't know what changed between Alpha and Beta Generations that is true, but it can also mean that the those early version/frames have capabilities that later ones do not. We know for the 2E RPG-verse that the basic frame has remained unchanged, but the supporting technology has moved forward. We just have no idea what that looks like over the long run.

I do think there is room for confusion if you consider that the Condor and Conbat are from the period where humans are just (supposedly) starting out with PC fueled mecha, so might want a more "conventional" backup source until the technology has matured, other wise you have to explain why some units have the system and others don't that originate from the same period.

Possibly... though afterburners normally draw on the main fuel supply, so they're always available as long as the fighter has the fuel to burn. This idea for a separate system strikes me as probably being a little unreliable/unsafe... especially if the backup system is throttling itself to 1/3 of the Alpha's normal performance.

I probably should have put afterburners in quotes as it is the closest analog I can think of at the time. The NTR LANTR system I mentioned injects LOX into the heated LH2 exhaust stream in the nozzle like afterburners (and combusts), while not an example of fighter operation the notion of different fuels isn't unheard of (just rare).

Probably better description of this setup is as another element in the combined cycle propulsion engines that the Alpha & Beta have to use as they are multi-environment systems (unless they don't have an air-breathing mode, which is unlikely). That I think greatly reduces the technical risk.

As a fusion reaction naturally produces extremely high temperatures, my assumption for the reason that the Alpha would be able to use the backup plant for vertical takeoff or landing but would otherwise be restricted to 1/3 power would be that the fighter's fusion backup generator has a limited cooling system that can sustainably handle 1/3 the output of the Alpha's engines but the VTOL thrust requirement pushes the generator past the safe operating limits of the cooling system (so it's only good for a minute or two).

A fusion reaction does involve high temperatures, but how does it compare to a PC reaction in the mecha's power plant? All we know is it is better than "conventional nuclear", without defining the term.

I suppose the Alpha/Beta could run the engines hot for VTOL since it isn't likely you'd need to sustain it for long, unlike normal flight conditions. Though additional questions have to be considered here:
-running them hot like that could potentially damage them, being a back-up system I would think that you'd favor reliability over short term performance which would negate running them hot to this extent I would think
-why would the temperatures be an issue at all given a decade of experience with the VF-1, the VHT was also developed before the Alpha (IIRC), etc. And if PC systems operate at equal or higher temperatures, it really seems like a non-issue.
-how many of the 6 engines is the backup system actually feeding into? it is possible that it provides full power for the 2 VTOL (as it has to in order to work), but might only feed 2 of the 4 horizontal engines (which would halve the available thrust)
-is the performance aspect a result of the compact size of the backup system or a "governor" managing performance

[Seto Kaiba]

I do think there is room for confusion if you consider that the Condor and Conbat are from the period where humans are just (supposedly) starting out with PC fueled mecha, so might want a more "conventional" backup source until the technology has matured, other wise you have to explain why some units have the system and others don't that originate from the same period.

Looking at it as written, I'd say there are a lot of awkward questions raised by this backup power system regardless of which units have it and which don't... it was not a well thought-out addition to the mecha. You would expect that the implementation would be going the other way, with the older and simpler mecha having the backup power units because their simpler non-transforming designs have the room for it and potentially a lower-output main generator that could stand supplementation (like how the Macross destroids have two power systems) and the complex transforming mecha to have only the one power system with a higher rated output because they need the greater output and don't have as much internal space.

A fusion reaction does involve high temperatures, but how does it compare to a PC reaction in the mecha's power plant? All we know is it is better than "conventional nuclear", without defining the term.

I suppose the Alpha/Beta could run the engines hot for VTOL since it isn't likely you'd need to sustain it for long, unlike normal flight conditions. Though additional questions have to be considered here:
-running them hot like that could potentially damage them, being a back-up system I would think that you'd favor reliability over short term performance which would negate running them hot to this extent I would think

Being a backup system, I would expect the fusion generator's design intent would not be sustained, continuous operation... but rather to get the Alpha and its pilot out of a tight situation and well away from the battlefield, to somewhere safe where repairs could be made and fresh protoculture cells installed. We know a layman could replace protoculture cells, but refueling a fusion reactor probably requires more specialied equipment and more safety training.

A little engine damage is probably infinitely preferable to the complete loss of an otherwise-salvagable airframe and a trained pilot.

-why would the temperatures be an issue at all given a decade of experience with the VF-1, the VHT was also developed before the Alpha (IIRC), etc. And if PC systems operate at equal or higher temperatures, it really seems like a non-issue.

The VF-1, VHT, etc. were powered principally by their fusion reactors... which means that they had more extensive coolant systems in place to keep those reactors operating at a safe temperature. The Alpha's backup generator's meant to be some kind of sub-system situated who-knows-where in the airframe, which may or may not share the engine or protoculture generator's cooling system. If it IS shared, operating one or the other may be safe while a simultaneous operation of both pushes the system beyond its safe limits. If it's separate, derating reactor output may be a safety feature to prevent the reactor from overstretching its limited dedicated cooling system.

It's also worth noting that the VF-1, VHT, etc. had a convenient way to dispose of waste heat through the engine's output... they could bleed it right into the airstream in atmosphere, or vent plasma in space. (That is, in fact, how VF-1 engines work in the OSM.)

-how many of the 6 engines is the backup system actually feeding into? it is possible that it provides full power for the 2 VTOL (as it has to in order to work), but might only feed 2 of the 4 horizontal engines (which would halve the available thrust)

That wouldn't follow if it's producing enough thrust to get the fighter vertical. That means it's feeding the two main engines sufficiently that their ducted fan nozzles can provide VTOL power... so we have to ask why the reactor is unable to produce that output continuously. If it were only powering the sub-engines, VTOL flight would not be a possibility, because those are are all in the horizontal plane and only rated for 47kN each (two would get you just about 60% of the way to VTOL.)

-is the performance aspect a result of the compact size of the backup system or a "governor" managing performance

I wouldn't be in a rush to assume those are separate conditions... a small reactor with a limited coolant system would necessarily require some kind of thermal controller to derate the reactor enough to prevent overheating.

[guardiandashi]

this is going to sound like a "silly" suggestion, but what if what the alpha and beta have that is described as a "backup fusion reactor" is actually not a separate system, but a Low efficiency mode for the protoculture power source?
IE it is a protoculture/fusion reactor, that provides primary power for the mecha, and CAN operate in pure fusion mode, but its like trying to run a high performance motor on cheap garbagy fuel vs something like high grade aviation fuel. so yes it will run that way, but in pc fuel mode it can generate a LOT more power and thrust, whereas in "backup fusion mode" it looses a lot of capability.

like an alpha fighter adds 2-3 attacks in PC mode, has strike bonuses etc. in fusion mode it adds 0-1 attack and has limited to no strike bonuses (for example)

[ShadowLogan]

Looking at it as written, I'd say there are a lot of awkward questions raised by this backup power system regardless of which units have it and which don't... it was not a well thought-out addition to the mecha.

I agree, the 2E RPG's approach to the entire fuel issue across generations is not well thought-out. The inclusion of a back-up system on some mecha, but not others also raises questions. I don't have a problem with the VTs having back-up/auxiliary power systems, such a system would make sense on several fronts though the Alpha/Beta's is pushing it outside of my comfort zone for such a system.

Being a backup system, I would expect the fusion generator's design intent would not be sustained, continuous operation... but rather to get the Alpha and its pilot out of a tight situation and well away from the battlefield, to somewhere safe where repairs could be made and fresh protoculture cells installed. We know a layman could replace protoculture cells, but refueling a fusion reactor probably requires more specialied equipment and more safety training.

The system IS designed though for 2 hours of use per text, and to get away from the battle field at 1/3 velocity could very likely require sustained operations for that 2 hour period, it doesn't appear to be a "quick power for emergency landing" system (which would be in terms of minutes) given the duration. Now I suppose it's possible it could be a disposable system, ie its used once and replaced, but a re-usable system is what the text implies as it doesn't mention replacing the fusion system after each use.

The back-up fusion system likely can be setup for ease of fueling/re-fueling to the point a layman could do it just like a PC cell. It probably would not be like pumping gas, probably more like changing a battery (like the PC cell). It all depends on how the fueling is to be handled, which we conveniently don't know anything about.

It's also worth noting that the VF-1, VHT, etc. had a convenient way to dispose of waste heat through the engine's output... they could bleed it right into the airstream in atmosphere, or vent plasma in space. (That is, in fact, how VF-1 engines work in the OSM.)

Which it would make sense for the Alpha and Beta's back-up system to be able to do also since it is capable of initiating VTOL and horizontal flight. Presumably one uses the system when they are out of PC fuel (and presumably any addition propellant), would use the fusion by-products to generate the same effect.

That wouldn't follow if it's producing enough thrust to get the fighter vertical. That means it's feeding the two main engines sufficiently that their ducted fan nozzles can provide VTOL power... so we have to ask why the reactor is unable to produce that output continuously. If it were only powering the sub-engines, VTOL flight would not be a possibility, because those are are all in the horizontal plane and only rated for 47kN each (two would get you just about 60% of the way to VTOL.)

Actually it does follow, at least for the Alpha (the Beta is more problematic as it only has 3 engines) if the system is only able to power 2 engines at a time at full power, which would explain the full power for VTOL and 1/3 performance in F mode (this works only IF the VTOL engines can also be directed for horizontal operation normally). After all we know the Alpha (until Shadow model) has 6 engines, and given the -Zs thrust/speed ratio over the -H/I and using 1:1 for simplicity, a 2/3 reduction in thrust would result in 2/3 reduction in speed.

this is going to sound like a "silly" suggestion, but what if what the alpha and beta have that is described as a "backup fusion reactor" is actually not a separate system, but a Low efficiency mode for the protoculture power source?

It's hardly silly, the problem is we don't know. Could the power plant of the A/B be multi-modal in operation, sure. Given the age of the Alpha though, I think the early systems likely are not integrated to use the same core for PC/fusion modes, but rather separate systems that share a common exhaust.

[Seto Kaiba]

this is going to sound like a "silly" suggestion, but what if what the alpha and beta have that is described as a "backup fusion reactor" is actually not a separate system, but a Low efficiency mode for the protoculture power source?

I wouldn't say it's "silly"... but it would be inconsistent with what little we know about how protoculture is used, and with the way the RPG presents its backup fusion generator as a separate system.

I agree, the 2E RPG's approach to the entire fuel issue across generations is not well thought-out. The inclusion of a back-up system on some mecha, but not others also raises questions. I don't have a problem with the VTs having back-up/auxiliary power systems, such a system would make sense on several fronts though the Alpha/Beta's is pushing it outside of my comfort zone for such a system.

Well, to be fair, Palladium was shooting at a moving target... Tommy didn't decide that fully 2/3 of the mecha in the series weren't using protoculture until after they'd already had a book out. I have no bone to pick with the idea of a backup power system, but I'd reverse the current situation and put it on the older, simpler designs that have more interior space to play with and take it off the rather tightly-packed Alpha and Beta. (I'd probably put it on the Condor as a separate secondary power system that fed the unit's jump/flight engines so the protoculture reactor could run at a lower output.)

The system IS designed though for 2 hours of use per text, and to get away from the battle field at 1/3 velocity could very likely require sustained operations for that 2 hour period, it doesn't appear to be a "quick power for emergency landing" system (which would be in terms of minutes) given the duration.

"Quick power for an emergency landing" isn't really what I was tilting at... my interpretation of the system is as a way for an Alpha that has suffered protoculture generator damage or run perilously low on fuel during extended operations in the field to retreat to a nearby staging area or carrier for repair, rearming, and/or refueling. Considering this is a fighter designed for planetary invasions, the nearest UEEF presence capable of repairing the craft could be hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away from the combat zone. Two hours at 1/3 power would get you somewhere between 700 and 1,300km away depending on altitude. (To put that into usable perspective, an Alpha fighting at Reflex Point could retreat to a UEEF staging area in Georgia on emergency power.)

Now I suppose it's possible it could be a disposable system, ie its used once and replaced, but a re-usable system is what the text implies as it doesn't mention replacing the fusion system after each use.

Indeed, I hadn't considered it as a disposable system... but operating it above the output limit (or in tandem with the protoculture system) could put additional strain on the system and/or the rest of the aircraft that would necessitate maintenance before being returned to combat.

Which it would make sense for the Alpha and Beta's back-up system to be able to do also since it is capable of initiating VTOL and horizontal flight. Presumably one uses the system when they are out of PC fuel (and presumably any addition propellant), would use the fusion by-products to generate the same effect.

That raises two problems... the first being that we don't know where the backup fusion system is situated in the airframe. If it isn't near, or inside, the engines then it may not be possible for it to dispose of waste heat in the engine function. The second is that we don't know if the Alpha's engines are actually operating like a jet turbine (with a heater of some sort replacing the burner stage), or they're operating as something like an electrically-driven ducted fan.

Actually it does follow, at least for the Alpha (the Beta is more problematic as it only has 3 engines) if the system is only able to power 2 engines at a time at full power, which would explain the full power for VTOL and 1/3 performance in F mode (this works only IF the VTOL engines can also be directed for horizontal operation normally).

You missed my point... the Legioss's/Alpha's VTOL nozzles are driven by the two main engines. The four sub-engines are all located such that they're in the horizontal plane in F-mode. If it can run the main engines at full power to get off the ground in VTOL takeoff, then there'd have to be some performance/safety reason that it wouldn't then ALSO be able to run those engines at full power during level flight. The same contradictory problem exists in the TLEAD/Beta... which drives its two VTOL nozzles off the two main engines as well.

[ShadowLogan]

my interpretation of the system is as a way for an Alpha that has suffered protoculture generator damage or run perilously low on fuel during extended operations in the field to retreat to a nearby staging area or carrier for repair, rearming, and/or refueling.

I don't see this as the reason for the back-up system since fusion platforms don't have a similar system, to me it seems more likely that PC engines in question are not seen as reliable/mature necessitating a secondary power plant to handle operations should the unit fail (from non-combat damage). The Conbat/Condor (& the new UEEF Bioroid) have PC reactors as their Power Source descriptor in the 2E RPG, where the A/B use Protoculture Cells. Without knowing the differences, we are left to speculate, but I would think it is safe to assume the Cell system might be more complex than a reactor, and there fore have more points of potential failure.

Indeed, I hadn't considered it as a disposable system... but operating it above the output limit (or in tandem with the protoculture system) could put additional strain on the system and/or the rest of the aircraft that would necessitate maintenance before being returned to combat.

Yes it could put some additional strain on the platform, but the platform probably has margins of error. We also don't know if the two systems would necessarily tax shared parts in the same manner, or the designer/engineers (or even those who set the requirements in the UEEF) did not anticipate the scenario where the two systems would operate together and acted on the assumption they would so the components could handle the strain. Given that an overlap operational period is reasonable, then the system should be able to hand the strain for a limited amount of time at least.

That raises two problems... the first being that we don't know where the backup fusion system is situated in the airframe. If it isn't near, or inside, the engines then it may not be possible for it to dispose of waste heat in the engine function. The second is that we don't know if the Alpha's engines are actually operating like a jet turbine (with a heater of some sort replacing the burner stage), or they're operating as something like an electrically-driven ducted fan.

The first question I think we can safely say that the backup fusion system is near/inside the engines given they also can be used to generate thrust, if they aren't it means the fusion system either has unique nozzles or extensive ducting to use existing nozzles. I think we can rule out unique nozzles if it is the Manual Impulse system from the show, and ducting would eat up more volume that the Alpha and Beta likely don't have to spare.

The second question is even more complicated since we know the mecha can operate in the vacuum of space. The Turbine approach I think could be adapted more easily to vacuum use, though the fan driven approach I think would require another propulsion system buried in there as well.

You missed my point... the Legioss's/Alpha's VTOL nozzles are driven by the two main engines. The four sub-engines are all located such that they're in the horizontal plane in F-mode. If it can run the main engines at full power to get off the ground in VTOL takeoff, then there'd have to be some performance/safety reason that it wouldn't then ALSO be able to run those engines at full power during level flight. The same contradictory problem exists in the TLEAD/Beta... which drives its two VTOL nozzles off the two main engines as well.

No actually I did not miss the point. Part of the problem is how the Alpha might be set up propulsion wise can be seen differently between us. Lets say the RT equivalent of the OSM's JM-97M/99 engines (shp rated) are the only thing the fusion system powers and the ATF-401/415s are non operational from the fusion backup (for whatever reason). Let us also assume that the JMs provide input for both horizontal and vertical flight under normal conditions by some method, and the ATFs are not involved in Fighter Mode Vertical Flight aspect at all (as it would take more than 2 for VTOL, so I think we can say that they aren't used in VTOL alone). That means that the Alpha operating with 2 of its 6 engines, would produce a slower moving vehicle. It doesn't balance out exactly though since the implied thrust means roughly 1 JM = 2 ATF, but at that rate it would mean 1/2 thrust/speed not 1/3 (using a simple rounded version of 1:1 ratios worked out earlier comparing the H/I to the Z), this can be fixed by saying RT's (at least for the 2E RPG) ATFs are more powerful than their OSM counterparts (estimate x2 as powerful). Of course this causes additional problems.

The Beta may be a separate approach than the Alpha. Remember for VTOL the unit only need a T/W ratio of 1.0+ IINM so it could simply be for the Beta that the engines are not able to generate 100% power like they could with PC fuel, but its still enough for VTOL. One of the primary purposes of the Beta when connected to the Alpha is to provide high thrust capabilities, which likely means when linked the T/W is better than an Alpha solo (IMHO) and when operating solo the Beta would have even a higher T/W ratio, which means the fusion system only providing enough for VTOL and 1/3 thrust for forward flight can work (especially with the poor aerodynamics of said unit a simple 1:1 ratio reduction like the Alpha probably doesn't work).

[Tiree]

I have the backup generator used to make SLMH in ASC mecha. It just takes a bit of time, but it can be done. I also have all SLMH mecha utilize SLMH Fuel canisters that somehow look a lot like Protoculture Cells...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

If we go by the very little dialogue that indicates a backup system (Annie's Wedding), Scott tells everyone to turn off their protoculture feeds when they land. Rook says her protoculture barely registers on her gauges, yet the fighter isn't plummeting from the sky. They are also engaged in a limited battle with the Invid. At a guess, the on-board reflex furnace can be switched to "manual impulse" (again, dialogue) which probably has SOME effect on performance. This doesn't seem to be a new system so much as a capability of an existing one.....

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't see this as the reason for the back-up system since fusion platforms don't have a similar system, [...]

Just as a point of order, there are several fusion-powered platforms that have secondary power systems... the VF-1 in the RPG was given a third fusion reactor, and the Series 04 Destroids have secondary generators. I agree, though, that the RPG's distribution of backup generators is not logical.

[...] to me it seems more likely that PC engines in question are not seen as reliable/mature necessitating a secondary power plant to handle operations should the unit fail (from non-combat damage). The Conbat/Condor (& the new UEEF Bioroid) have PC reactors as their Power Source descriptor in the 2E RPG, where the A/B use Protoculture Cells. Without knowing the differences, we are left to speculate, but I would think it is safe to assume the Cell system might be more complex than a reactor, and there fore have more points of potential failure.

I don't see this as necessarily being mutually exclusive with my view, though I concur on the probability that the cell-driven system likely is considered a less-mature technology in-universe.

Yes it could put some additional strain on the platform, but the platform probably has margins of error. We also don't know if the two systems would necessarily tax shared parts in the same manner, or the designer/engineers (or even those who set the requirements in the UEEF) did not anticipate the scenario where the two systems would operate together and acted on the assumption they would so the components could handle the strain. Given that an overlap operational period is reasonable, then the system should be able to hand the strain for a limited amount of time at least.

As we're operating under the houserule assumption that the two can be operated at the same time, the question of margins is likely academic... I would simply rationalize the limitations on output as a fundamental safety limit of some kind of the fusion reactor, or simply remove the RAW restriction on flight speeds.

The first question I think we can safely say that the backup fusion system is near/inside the engines given they also can be used to generate thrust, if they aren't it means the fusion system either has unique nozzles or extensive ducting to use existing nozzles. I think we can rule out unique nozzles if it is the Manual Impulse system from the show, and ducting would eat up more volume that the Alpha and Beta likely don't have to spare.

That's assuming that the fusion engine is exhausting plasma to produce thrust... it may simply be providing a high-voltage electrical source for a ducted-fan type engine, in which case it could be located virtually anywhere in the airframe as long as a electrical path could be provided to connect it to the main engines. We don't know what type of engine the Alpha actually has.

The second question is even more complicated since we know the mecha can operate in the vacuum of space. The Turbine approach I think could be adapted more easily to vacuum use, though the fan driven approach I think would require another propulsion system buried in there as well.

Realistically, neither approach should work in space unless there were also an ion engine of some description... there's no air in space for the intakes to draw. My assumption would be that the Alpha's main engines contain an ion engine assembly in the tail end of the turbine/fan space the way the OSM VF-1 does, enabling the fighter to be operated interchangeably in space, atmosphere, and even underwater relatively seamlessly.

[ShadowLogan]

That's assuming that the fusion engine is exhausting plasma to produce thrust... it may simply be providing a high-voltage electrical source for a ducted-fan type engine, in which case it could be located virtually anywhere in the airframe as long as a electrical path could be provided to connect it to the main engines. We don't know what type of engine the Alpha actually has.

The Alpha has 6 engines, by OSM specs 2 of them have shaft horse power rating, and 4 have traditional thrust rating. So the Alpha might have multiple engine types involved at this point, and that doesn't even consider the multi-environmental aspect. Not to mention I would think that you would need some method for exhausting spent fusion fuel, so you might as well be able to tie it into the engines to produce thrust.

Realistically, neither approach should work in space unless there were also an ion engine of some description... there's no air in space for the intakes to draw. My assumption would be that the Alpha's main engines contain an ion engine assembly in the tail end of the turbine/fan space the way the OSM VF-1 does, enabling the fighter to be operated interchangeably in space, atmosphere, and even underwater relatively seamlessly.

Realistically The Turbine Approach (heating) can be adapted for use in space though it may not be the most efficient setup as some advanced rockets operate on the principle of heating a working fluid (NERVA type NTR, Electrical Plasma & Arc-jet Rocket, or potentially any rocket that heats the propellant for expulsion). A fan setup won't work in space.

A third potential alternative is the Pluse Detonation Engine, mechanically simple yet difficult to operate it could function as both air and vacuum. All it requires is the fuel and oxidizer, and we know the UEEF uses PC in more "conventional engine" setups like the Cyclone and Silverback.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Alpha has 6 engines, by OSM specs 2 of them have shaft horse power rating, and 4 have traditional thrust rating. So the Alpha might have multiple engine types involved at this point, and that doesn't even consider the multi-environmental aspect. [...]

... yeah, I made pretty much that exact point a couple posts back.

As the OSM specs have it, Mars Base's AFC-01 Legioss armo-fighter is a six-engine aircraft. It has two main engines, which use the intake fans on the front of the aircraft and power both the main nozzles in the mecha's feet and the VTOL lift nozzles in the mecha's underside. It also has four sub-engine systems, one in each forearm and one situated in each foot. As I noted several posts ago... since the backup fusion plant in the RPG provides VTOL power, that means it must be supplying power to the fighter's main engines rather than the sub-engines. (It must be noted that it's not clear if the Legioss is even able to use its main engines in space... they were only intended to operate in space for short durations to provide cover for descent shuttles and other ships during reentry.)

[...] Not to mention I would think that you would need some method for exhausting spent fusion fuel, so you might as well be able to tie it into the engines to produce thrust.

Only if the reactor is consuming large amounts of fuel... unless it's a pulse-detonation type reactor a certain amount of plasma being retained by the reactor is desirable for maintaining the reaction. Given that this backup fusion plant has an aggressively limited fuel supply that constrains its operation to 2 hours at 1/3 of the aircraft's normal power, I suspect that the amount of plasma it produces would be very small.

Realistically The Turbine Approach (heating) can be adapted for use in space though it may not be the most efficient setup as some advanced rockets operate on the principle of heating a working fluid (NERVA type NTR, Electrical Plasma & Arc-jet Rocket, or potentially any rocket that heats the propellant for expulsion). A fan setup won't work in space.

A third potential alternative is the Pluse Detonation Engine, mechanically simple yet difficult to operate it could function as both air and vacuum. All it requires is the fuel and oxidizer, and we know the UEEF uses PC in more "conventional engine" setups like the Cyclone and Silverback.

Efficiency would be a paramount concern for any VF, and particularly the Alpha since it's so much smaller than the VF-1 and lacks optional internal or external bolt-on tanks prior to 2044. I would suspect that the Alpha and Robotech VF-1 would use a very similar approach to the Macross VF-1, and incorporate a plasma ion engine in the turbine for maximum space efficiency.

WRT the engines for the Cyclone... I don't recall offhand what the RPG said they were, but in the OSM they were miniature turbines, not dissimilar from the Legioss's main engines.

[ShadowLogan]

Only if the reactor is consuming large amounts of fuel... unless it's a pulse-detonation type reactor a certain amount of plasma being retained by the reactor is desirable for maintaining the reaction. Given that this backup fusion plant has an aggressively limited fuel supply that constrains its operation to 2 hours at 1/3 of the aircraft's normal power, I suspect that the amount of plasma it produces would be very small.

That is part of the problem though, we really don't know what type of fusion system they are using (I don't think even Palladium knows). I do agree that depending on the type of setup for the fusion reaction some of the plamsa would be retained, but even then you would want to be able to get rid of any excess eventually.

The only way for the Alpha or Beta to have 1/3 engine propulsion power and still retain VTOL would mean the VTOL engines can contribute to horizontal flight. The ability to use the engines in the OSM in space may be limited, but in RT that concept appears to have been abandoned.

Efficiency would be a paramount concern for any VF, and particularly the Alpha since it's so much smaller than the VF-1 and lacks optional internal or external bolt-on tanks prior to 2044. I would suspect that the Alpha and Robotech VF-1 would use a very similar approach to the Macross VF-1, and incorporate a plasma ion engine in the turbine for maximum space efficiency.

Realistically speaking though, efficiency would favor the direct use of the fusion plasma rather than to power a secondary system.

Recall from previous discussions that in rocketry efficiency is measured in terms of Specific Impulse ("The length of time that a unit of propellants will produce a similar unit of thrust, measured in seconds). In which case it would be more efficient to use the waste plasma for thrust than to power a secondary system to create the waste plasma since that type of engine IINM maxes out around 10,000sec (Plasma Ion), but a direct fusion system is capable of 100,000sec. (though I have seen higher numbers). Fusion is x10 more efficient use of material directly than indirectly.

WRT the engines for the Cyclone... I don't recall offhand what the RPG said they were, but in the OSM they were miniature turbines, not dissimilar from the Legioss's main engines.

"High Output Protoculture Fired Rotary Engine", which means it is a form of internal combustion engine IINM.

[Tiree]

As the OSM specs have it, Mars Base's AFC-01 Legioss armo-fighter is a six-engine aircraft. It has two main engines, which use the intake fans on the front of the aircraft and power both the main nozzles in the mecha's feet and the VTOL lift nozzles in the mecha's underside. It also has four sub-engine systems, one in each forearm and one situated in each foot. As I noted several posts ago... since the backup fusion plant in the RPG provides VTOL power, that means it must be supplying power to the fighter's main engines rather than the sub-engines. (It must be noted that it's not clear if the Legioss is even able to use its main engines in space... they were only intended to operate in space for short durations to provide cover for descent shuttles and other ships during reentry.)

This is an assumption, not a fact. It is quite possible that the backup fusion plant can power ALL the engines, not just a limited number

[Seto Kaiba]

That is part of the problem though, we really don't know what type of fusion system they are using (I don't think even Palladium knows). I do agree that depending on the type of setup for the fusion reaction some of the plamsa would be retained, but even then you would want to be able to get rid of any excess eventually.

Maybe that's the reason for the 2 hour maximum operating time? The percentage of fusion byproducts reaches a level where it can no longer produce enough temperature or pressure to sustain fusion and then you need to change out the fuel cartridge.

The only way for the Alpha or Beta to have 1/3 engine propulsion power and still retain VTOL would mean the VTOL engines can contribute to horizontal flight. The ability to use the engines in the OSM in space may be limited, but in RT that concept appears to have been abandoned.

As I've noted previously, the VTOL nozzles on the underside are tied into the two main JG-97M (or JG-99) engines... the four ATF-401 sub-engines are in the forearms and the feet. So, if we're getting VTOL, that means the backup fusion generator MUST be powering the main engines (and, through them, the VTOL nozzles).

Realistically speaking though, efficiency would favor the direct use of the fusion plasma rather than to power a secondary system.

As noted previously, that depends on how the main engines work... whether they're a true turbine, or an electrically-driven ducted fan system.

"High Output Protoculture Fired Rotary Engine", which means it is a form of internal combustion engine IINM.

I know protoculture can be dangerously reactive stuff at times, but that seems like an awful waste of a precious fuel source... the original engine was a HBT-driven ceramic turbine.

This is an assumption, not a fact. It is quite possible that the backup fusion plant can power ALL the engines, not just a limited number

It's a sound deduction based on the available facts... if we assume that the main engines are producing just enough thrust to get the fighter airborne in VTOL mode, the 66% loss of output of the backup fusion plant vs. the main power system implies that the fighter not only isn't using the sub-engines, it tops out running the main engines at roughly 70% power in level flight.

If we assume that a greater main engine output is achieved at normal operating power, that just decreases the total percentage of main engine power that'd be available at 1/3 performance...

[ShadowLogan]

Maybe that's the reason for the 2 hour maximum operating time? The percentage of fusion byproducts reaches a level where it can no longer produce enough temperature or pressure to sustain fusion and then you need to change out the fuel cartridge.

Possible, but there are several problems:
-obviously the type of fusion reactor design being used as some setups don't require spent material to continue the reaction
-is the output at a fixed level or is it throttle? And how does that influence endurance. is that 2hrs at max output or cruise output, or is the output a use it or lose it you can't bank it
-possibly even where they found room to fit any backup fusion system and how it relates to the protoculture system could even be a factor

As I've noted previously, the VTOL nozzles on the underside are tied into the two main JG-97M (or JG-99) engines... the four ATF-401 sub-engines are in the forearms and the feet. So, if we're getting VTOL, that means the backup fusion generator MUST be powering the main engines (and, through them, the VTOL nozzles).

I agree that the VTOL nozzles have to be powered by the fusion system. The problem is in order to get a 2/3 reduction in speed/thrust, the ATFs need to be 2x as powerful as the OSM version as the 2 JGs have to provide thrust equal to roughly 4 ATFs to handle VTOL. If the JGs are part of the horizontal flight in fighter mode it also has the consequence of raising the Alpha's T/W ratio, and altering other performance metrics (since they are based on incorrect Thrust values assumed from the OSM). This doesn't even consider how the Impulse/Fusion system can effect the T/W ratio.

I know protoculture can be dangerously reactive stuff at times, but that seems like an awful waste of a precious fuel source... the original engine was a HBT-driven ceramic turbine.

It gets "better", if you read the description in the standard Cyclone equipment instead of individual entries this "rotary engine" uses the principles of a fuel-cell to extract motive power. IINM fuelcells don't work that way, and nor does a rotary engine.

It also it depends on how wasteful the approach actually turns out to be based on various factors. The Silverback and the Cyclone both use this type of engine, and w/1 or 2 cells they get comparable endurance to the Alpha/Beta that use 16/32 cells for the same endurance. Now I agree there are big differences here on a variety of fronts, but it does seem to suggest that certain configurations are more efficient (I think we can say the Beta and Silverback are actually more fuel efficient over their similar engine counter parts).

[Seto Kaiba]

-is the output at a fixed level or is it throttle? And how does that influence endurance. is that 2hrs at max output or cruise output, or is the output a use it or lose it you can't bank it

Based on the obvious thrust problem we've acknowledged previously, I would be inclined to interpret it as follows:
- The backup fusion generator is a throttled system.
- The system is rated for 2 hours of operation at nominal maximum power (1/3 performance in fighter mode), after which point the system has exhausted its fuel.
- The system has an "overboost" mode in which it is capable of supplying sufficient power for vertical take-off and landing, but the higher operating power consumes fuel at twice the normal rate (30s of VTOL counts as 1 minute of full-power flight) and cannot be continuously used for more than 60s, at which point it will be automatically throttled back by failsafes to protect the generator and becomes unusable for 5m+.

I agree that the VTOL nozzles have to be powered by the fusion system. The problem is in order to get a 2/3 reduction in speed/thrust, the ATFs need to be 2x as powerful as the OSM version as the 2 JGs have to provide thrust equal to roughly 4 ATFs to handle VTOL. If the JGs are part of the horizontal flight in fighter mode it also has the consequence of raising the Alpha's T/W ratio, and altering other performance metrics (since they are based on incorrect Thrust values assumed from the OSM). This doesn't even consider how the Impulse/Fusion system can effect the T/W ratio.

Three points...

The first is the obvious point that the problem here isn't in the OSM or official spec... it's that the writer who penned the idea of the fusion backup generator clearly did not think the system through when they wrote it.

The second, related to the first, is that the implications of an unofficial system in the non-canon RPG has no real bearing on official canon stats.

The third is that you're assuming (likely incorrectly) that "maximum output" and "maximum sustainable output" are the same thing WRT the fusion backup generator and engines in general. The answer could be as simple as my proposal above, that the fusion backup system is running above its safety threshold to provide VTOL power. This could be as simple as an afterburner-type "over 100%" operating level. The VF-1's maximum engine output was 200% of its nominal maximum output in the Macross OSM, as seen on its cockpit controls line art.

It gets "better", if you read the description in the standard Cyclone equipment instead of individual entries this "rotary engine" uses the principles of a fuel-cell to extract motive power. IINM fuelcells don't work that way, and nor does a rotary engine.

... this hurts my brain. Many fuel cell technologies use combustible gases (usually hydrogen or hydrocarbons), but they don't produce combustible gases in their operation. They split the fuel into ions and electrons, with the ions crossing the electrolyte from the anode to cathode, and the electrons taking the long way 'round through a DC circuit. The usual byproducts are water or carbon dioxide, neither of which is exactly what you'd call flammable. The output is direct-current electricity. You wouldn't have any use for a combustion engine if you're running on the principles of a fuel cell... you'd want a brushless direct current motor.

Also, a ROTARY engine? I've heard of those being built for use on motorcycles... circa 1890-1912. I know of a few custom jobs that have been done in recent years using secondhand light aircraft engines, but it's definitely not a production option... and looks like it belongs in Mad Max, to be honest.

[Jefffar]

Also, a ROTARY engine? I've heard of those being built for use on motorcycles... circa 1890-1912. I know of a few custom jobs that have been done in recent years using secondhand light aircraft engines, but it's definitely not a production option... and looks like it belongs in Mad Max, to be honest.

Mazda was producing cars with rotary engines up to the 2011 model year.

[ShadowLogan]

Based on the obvious thrust problem we've acknowledged previously, I would be inclined to interpret it as follows:...

I can agree with the first two points as being reasonable, but why would the JG/Fusion setup have overboost but not the JB/ATF using PC? Such a system feature would seem to make more sense for normal functions than as a backup system, and could even find its way into normal flight operations for short bursts (like after burner) if it was in the backup system, but such a capability is omitted (no 1/3 power, but can jump to nearly full power for short bursts of # units of time).

The first is the obvious point that the problem here isn't in the OSM or official spec... it's that the writer who penned the idea of the fusion backup generator clearly did not think the system through when they wrote it.

I think it is a bit more complicated than that, since we know the Alpha and Beta can close off their PC feeds and switch to manual impulse to sustain flight for a limited time. So explaining the impulse system isn't bad in itself, but you are correct they did not put as much thought into the system. They might have simply been better off having the Alpha/Beta (limited to F mode) operate for a maximum period under the fusion system instead of what they did.

The second, related to the first, is that the implications of an unofficial system in the non-canon RPG has no real bearing on official canon stats.

Not suggesting the official canon stats to be adjusted, just the official RPG stats given the official canon stats don't deal with the auxiliary/backup system at the moment (and when it was written).

The third is that you're assuming (likely incorrectly) that "maximum output" and "maximum sustainable output" are the same thing WRT the fusion backup generator and engines in general. The answer could be as simple as my proposal above, that the fusion backup system is running above its safety threshold to provide VTOL power. This could be as simple as an afterburner-type "over 100%" operating level. The VF-1's maximum engine output was 200% of its nominal maximum output in the Macross OSM, as seen on its cockpit controls line art.

I'm aware that systems can deliver more than 100% of thrust/performance metric, for example the space shuttles main engines (LOX/LH2) are throttled above 100% during certain stages of the launch profile, then you have afterburners in jet engines. I look at maximum output to be maximum output, sustainable output sounds more like cruise output.

... this hurts my brain. Many fuel cell technologies use combustible gases (usually hydrogen or hydrocarbons), but they don't produce combustible gases in their operation. They split the fuel into ions and electrons, with the ions crossing the electrolyte from the anode to cathode, and the electrons taking the long way 'round through a DC circuit. The usual byproducts are water or carbon dioxide, neither of which is exactly what you'd call flammable. The output is direct-current electricity. You wouldn't have any use for a combustion engine if you're running on the principles of a fuel cell... you'd want a brushless direct current motor.

Pretty much my reaction to the text as it seems completely at odds w/how both rotary engines and fuel cells work, but I will add fuel cell byproducts do/can include heat.

[glitterboy2098]

Fuelcells work by passing materials across a catalyst to trigger chemical reactions. which in the more familiar ones is Hydrogen and oxygen across a polymer membrane that catalyzes the two to combine, producing heat, electricity, and water.

a protoculture fuel cell probably runs PC fuel across a catalyst of some king, elicting various byproducts as well. basically the PC being a monofuel.

from there you could get a rotary engine component in one of two ways that I can see. if the byproducts of the fuel cell are flammable, you could burn them for additional power. if the byproducts are not flammable, but do include a lot of heat, you could use a Stirling engine assembly, which could be engineered as a rotary assembly.

speculation? sure. but it fits the engine description in the books, and the visual evidence of the show, where cyclones appear to have engines that sound like, and start up like, internal combustion systems. (a hold over from the original MOSPEADA setting where they basically were ICE systems)

[Seto Kaiba]

Mazda was producing cars with rotary engines up to the 2011 model year.

Well, that's true... though it comes with an asterisk large enough to be mistaken for an Invid starship. Two, really.

The first, obvious one is that Mazda didn't use them in motorcycles... they used them in cars.

The second, less obvious one is that Mazda's love affair with the Wankel rotary engine was at ultra-low production volumes and nearly killed the company outright. Wankel rotary engines produce a lot of power in a comparatively small package, but the efficiency and emissions profile of the design is absolutely terrible. Thanks to both of those factors, expanded emissions regulations and the oil crisis in the 70's made Mazda's rotary engine designs practically unsalable... at which point Mazda relegated rotary engines to an RX-exclusive feature, and the production numbers went through the floor until the European Union and Japan's National Diet stepped in to administer the coup de grace by banning the sale of the RX-8 in Europe because it couldn't meet emissions standards and slapping an extra tax on RX-8 owners in Japan because of the car's size.

I think we might have one of the RX-8 rotary engines at work, over in the teardown studio's "hall of misfit toys".

I can agree with the first two points as being reasonable, but why would the JG/Fusion setup have overboost but not the JB/ATF using PC? Such a system feature would seem to make more sense for normal functions than as a backup system, and could even find its way into normal flight operations for short bursts (like after burner) if it was in the backup system, but such a capability is omitted (no 1/3 power, but can jump to nearly full power for short bursts of # units of time).

Well, I'd say the difference is (roughly) analogous to the difference in capability between a combustion engine and a battery or fuel-cell engine. With a combustion engine, you can run the engine at a level above what's normally considered the safe operating level for short periods of time without (significant) fear of doing (irreparable) damage to the engine because the limit is principally in the mechanical resilience of the engine. In a fuel cell or chemical battery setup, your peak output is a hard limit above which you can't really go without tying additional cells into the system to increase the output of the system because the limit is in the cell's physical ability to carry out the chemical reactions that produce current.

The RPG equates the operation of the protoculture cells used by the Alpha, Beta, and Cyclone to the function of hydrogen fuel cells, which suggests that they're providing electrical power like a fuel cell and therefore have a "hard" peak output limited by the power generation ability of the cells rather than the mechanical resilience of a generator.

I think it is a bit more complicated than that, since we know the Alpha and Beta can close off their PC feeds and switch to manual impulse to sustain flight for a limited time. So explaining the impulse system isn't bad in itself, but you are correct they did not put as much thought into the system. They might have simply been better off having the Alpha/Beta (limited to F mode) operate for a maximum period under the fusion system instead of what they did.

The question is "What is manual impulse?" then... because, IIRC, Rook mentions that her craft is still consuming (negligible) amounts of protoculture in that mode. That may be something analogous to the VF-0 running on battery power while underwater.

Pretty much my reaction to the text as it seems completely at odds w/how both rotary engines and fuel cells work, but I will add fuel cell byproducts do/can include heat.

True, and some fuel cell technologies only work properly in a certain temperature range... which takes us back to the thermal limit side of things from a few posts back.

Fuelcells work by passing materials across a catalyst to trigger chemical reactions. which in the more familiar ones is Hydrogen and oxygen across a polymer membrane that catalyzes the two to combine, producing heat, electricity, and water.

a protoculture fuel cell probably runs PC fuel across a catalyst of some king, elicting various byproducts as well. basically the PC being a monofuel.

Potentially, though the description on page 138 of the core book indicates that they work on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell... which suggests that the required input includes an oxidizing agent in addition to the protoculture and that the byproducts are water vapor and electrical current.

[eliakon]

Mazda was producing cars with rotary engines up to the 2011 model year.

Well, that's true... though it comes with an asterisk large enough to be mistaken for an Invid starship. Two, really.

The first, obvious one is that Mazda didn't use them in motorcycles... they used them in cars.

The second, less obvious one is that Mazda's love affair with the Wankel rotary engine was at ultra-low production volumes and nearly killed the company outright. Wankel rotary engines produce a lot of power in a comparatively small package, but the efficiency and emissions profile of the design is absolutely terrible. Thanks to both of those factors, expanded emissions regulations and the oil crisis in the 70's made Mazda's rotary engine designs practically unsalable... at which point Mazda relegated rotary engines to an RX-exclusive feature, and the production numbers went through the floor until the European Union and Japan's National Diet stepped in to administer the coup de grace by banning the sale of the RX-8 in Europe because it couldn't meet emissions standards and slapping an extra tax on RX-8 owners in Japan because of the car's size.

I think we might have one of the RX-8 rotary engines at work, over in the teardown studio's "hall of misfit toys".

Norton was producing Wankel rotary engine motercycles all the way up to 1991
Which means that there were production rotary engine motercyles available at the time that Robotech was written.

Fuelcells work by passing materials across a catalyst to trigger chemical reactions. which in the more familiar ones is Hydrogen and oxygen across a polymer membrane that catalyzes the two to combine, producing heat, electricity, and water.

a protoculture fuel cell probably runs PC fuel across a catalyst of some king, elicting various byproducts as well. basically the PC being a monofuel.

Potentially, though the description on page 138 of the core book indicates that they work on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell... which suggests that the required input includes an oxidizing agent in addition to the protoculture and that the byproducts are water vapor and electrical current.

All it says is 'the principles of the hydrogen fuel cell'
Which doesn't say that it has to be oxidized, produce water vapor ect....
It can be exactly as glitterboy2098 suggested and still be a monofuel over a catalyst and still be using the same principles.
It would be pure speculation to make any firm assertion about the mechanics of the system from that single sentence with out any additional material.

[Seto Kaiba]

Norton was producing Wankel rotary engine motercycles all the way up to 1991
Which means that there were production rotary engine motercyles available at the time that Robotech was written.

Interesting! It looks like they followed an almost identical trajectory to Mazda in the 70's and 80's with the Wankel rotary engines... they chose that technology for the power, and regretted it a couple years down the road because of the design's terrible efficiency, the resulting emissions issues, and the high cooling system requirements. Looks like it met the exact same end too... retired from general production due to insurmountable difficulties and maintained only for sport/racing models before giving up on it completely.

All it says is 'the principles of the hydrogen fuel cell'
Which doesn't say that it has to be oxidized, produce water vapor ect....

OK, so... the problem with your assertion here is that it runs counter to the basic definition of a fuel cell.

A fuel cell is, by definition, "a device that produces continuous electric current directly from the oxidation of a fuel".

It can be exactly as glitterboy2098 suggested and still be a monofuel over a catalyst and still be using the same principles.

Nope... as illustrated above, you can't be operating on the principles of a fuel cell and be "monofuel". The oxidizing agent is a key part of the reaction that causes a fuel cell to produce electricity. Not to put a razor-fine point on it, but what you're describing is a battery, not a fuel cell.

It would be pure speculation to make any firm assertion about the mechanics of the system from that single sentence with out any additional material.

If you know nothing about the technology they're referencing it could be a problem...

[ShadowLogan]

The question is "What is manual impulse?" then... because, IIRC, Rook mentions that her craft is still consuming (negligible) amounts of protoculture in that mode. That may be something analogous to the VF-0 running on battery power while underwater.

You are not entirely wrong (Rook does make a statement around that time), but the sequence/timing of events is wrong because Ep74 starts with Rook mentioning her PC level barely registering, once Rand in the Blue Alpha lands in the tree to rescue the Jeep, Scott orders them to close of the PC-feed and go to manual impulse after they cut loose with the smoke screen. The scene ends and transitions to them on the ground.

The question does become what is manual impulse though. At least when the 2E RPG was written HG seems fine with the idea of it being classified as a fusion system ("Impulse' might be an in-universe name for it, sort of like how Star Trek refers to the act of teleporting as "beaming" or "using the transporter", etc).

Potentially, though the description on page 138 of the core book indicates that they work on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell... which suggests that the required input includes an oxidizing agent in addition to the protoculture and that the byproducts are water vapor and electrical current.

Depending on what the Oxidizer is in this case it could be a package deal (everything in the one PC container) or they get the oxidizer from the ambient environment.

from there you could get a rotary engine component in one of two ways that I can see. if the byproducts of the fuel cell are flammable, you could burn them for additional power. if the byproducts are not flammable, but do include a lot of heat, you could use a Stirling engine assembly, which could be engineered as a rotary assembly.

The question does become what are they doing with all the electricity the fuelcell(s) is producing then, because they could use it to power the drive train directly. They could recover more energy from the heat by use of thermocouples IINM.

Since PC is volatile (Ep75) even in it's storage container, that shows you could adapt an internal combustion engine to work off of PC fuel. That in itself might be more effective than running it through a fuelcell.

[glitterboy2098]

Fuelcells work by passing materials across a catalyst to trigger chemical reactions. which in the more familiar ones is Hydrogen and oxygen across a polymer membrane that catalyzes the two to combine, producing heat, electricity, and water.

a protoculture fuel cell probably runs PC fuel across a catalyst of some king, elicting various byproducts as well. basically the PC being a monofuel.

Potentially, though the description on page 138 of the core book indicates that they work on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell... which suggests that the required input includes an oxidizing agent in addition to the protoculture and that the byproducts are water vapor and electrical current.

All it says is 'the principles of the hydrogen fuel cell'
Which doesn't say that it has to be oxidized, produce water vapor ect....
It can be exactly as glitterboy2098 suggested and still be a monofuel over a catalyst and still be using the same principles.
It would be pure speculation to make any firm assertion about the mechanics of the system from that single sentence with out any additional material.

Seto, clearly you do not know what a Monofuel is. to be fair it is not a term you hear much outside rocket science.

a monofuel is, to use the Websters dictionary definition: a substance that contains an oxidizer capable of burning the remainder of the substance without recourse to an external oxidizer

the advantage of a monofuel is that you don't have to bring along a seperate oxidizer, the fuel itself contains/fills that role.
it is also worth noting that most monofuels are highly explosive (because of said oxidizer property, and the fact fuels tend to be chosen for high energy densities)

from there you could get a rotary engine component in one of two ways that I can see. if the byproducts of the fuel cell are flammable, you could burn them for additional power. if the byproducts are not flammable, but do include a lot of heat, you could use a Stirling engine assembly, which could be engineered as a rotary assembly.

The question does become what are they doing with all the electricity the fuelcell(s) is producing then, because they could use it to power the drive train directly. They could recover more energy from the heat by use of thermocouples IINM.

actually if it works via the fuel cell/sterling-engine set up i mentioned above, i doubt that you could do much with the direct driveshaft set ups. sterling engines wouldn't generate a lot of torque. the power to weight ratio is just not there. they are not a good choice for direct powering a vehicle's wheels. but they work great for driving a shaft connected to a generator. (this is how they are generally used today..even in vehicle applications like the Gotland class submarine's AIP drive.

between the fuelcells direct electrical output and using a Sterling engine to convert the waste heat to additional electrical power via hooking up their output shafts to a generator, you can then run electric motors for the wheels... and all those actuators for the arms and legs and the thruster system while in armor mode. an engine set up for direct driveshaft transfer is great for a motor cycle, but a cyclone is really more of a powered armor that can origami itself into a wheeled form.

also thermocouples are not the greatest choice, though i'm certain you could probably add them as a third means of producing electrical power if you wanted. thermocouples only generate power from the heat gradient, rather than direct from making use of the heat transfer the way sterling engines do, and unless you've got very high thermal gradients they won't produce all that much power while adding a fair bit of mass.

Since PC is volatile (Ep75) even in it's storage container, that shows you could adapt an internal combustion engine to work off of PC fuel. That in itself might be more effective than running it through a fuelcell.

given that three PC-cells create an explosion on par with a couple dozen pounds of TNT, i doubt you could adapt an existing engine to run off it. you could probably engineer a special engine to use it though. i suspect though that like the Gunpowder Engine good results would probably not be very easy to achieve.

[Seto Kaiba]

The question does become what is manual impulse though. At least when the 2E RPG was written HG seems fine with the idea of it being classified as a fusion system ("Impulse' might be an in-universe name for it, sort of like how Star Trek refers to the act of teleporting as "beaming" or "using the transporter", etc).

The thing is... the Robotech animated series has a LOT of areas of dialog inconsistency with itself or the visuals, and no small number of cases where made-up terms were used without context or real terms were used incorrectly. I'm a little hesitant to take the "manual impulse" thing as an indication of a fusion system for precisely that reason.

Mind you, it's funny you should mention Star Trek in connection with this. "Impulse" was, in that setting, the catch-all term for fusion-powered sublight engine systems... most commonly a fusion reactor-powered hybrid of a fusion rocket and ion engine, and is also effectively how a thermonuclear reaction engine from Macross works in space.

Depending on what the Oxidizer is in this case it could be a package deal (everything in the one PC container) or they get the oxidizer from the ambient environment.

Very true... if the "protoculture cell" is truly a self-contained fuel cell power system, then the cell would probably contain reservoirs of both the fuel and oxidizer. Though I would imagine that, on a Cyclone, they wouldn't need a self-contained oxygen supply... as the UEEF isn't in the business of invading planets that don't have a human-breathable atmosphere and the canon ones aren't ever depicted operating in space (Vince's little jump in Prelude was from one artificial atmosphere to another, and thus probably doesn't count).

I admittedly don't agree with the notion of the protoculture cell as a fuel cell... I suspect they're probably something more along the lines of a nuclear battery.

Seto, clearly you do not know what a Monofuel is. to be fair it is not a term you hear much outside rocket science.

a monofuel is, to use the Websters dictionary definition: a substance that contains an oxidizer capable of burning the remainder of the substance without recourse to an external oxidizer

No, I know what a monofuel is... what you're not grasping here is the very thing that makes a monofuel suitable for certain uses in combustion-based propulsion is what makes it categorically impossible to use in a fuel cell arrangement. The oxidizer and the fuel have to be separate and kept on opposite sides of the electrolyte for a fuel cell to function. What produces electrical energy in fuel cells is that the fuel is ionized at the anode and, while fuel ions move across the electrolyte to the oxidizer on the cathode's end of the cell, the freed electrons from the ionized fuel cannot traverse the electrolyte and have to travel from the anode to the cathode through the electrical circuit.

If your oxidizer is mixed into the fuel, you won't be able to produce a fuel cell-type reaction.

[glitterboy2098]

Seto, clearly you do not know what a Monofuel is. to be fair it is not a term you hear much outside rocket science.

a monofuel is, to use the Websters dictionary definition: a substance that contains an oxidizer capable of burning the remainder of the substance without recourse to an external oxidizer

No, I know what a monofuel is... what you're not grasping here is the very thing that makes a monofuel suitable for certain uses in combustion-based propulsion is what makes it categorically impossible to use in a fuel cell arrangement. The oxidizer and the fuel have to be separate and kept on opposite sides of the electrolyte for a fuel cell to function. What produces electrical energy in fuel cells is that the fuel is ionized at the anode and, while fuel ions move across the electrolyte to the oxidizer on the cathode's end of the cell, the freed electrons from the ionized fuel cannot traverse the electrolyte and have to travel from the anode to the cathode through the electrical circuit.

If your oxidizer is mixed into the fuel, you won't be able to produce a fuel cell-type reaction.

a couple things though..
first is that this is not a hydrogen fuel cell, its a protoculture fuel cell, so we can't say whether the engineering is similar or not.
second, even in monofuels you can often separate out the oxidizer component via other catalytic chemistry, breaking up molecules into the constituant parts. given that monofuels have to do this anyway to function this is not really a big problem.
third, given the exotic nature and properties of the protoculture molecule in other uses, i see no reason that you couldn't end up with PC being fed into both sides of a fuel cell of the type you describe, and end up reacting with itself as it passed through the membranes.

seriously, we don't know enough about the chemistry involved to be saying "oh well this real world thing means that won't work."

[Seto Kaiba]

a couple things though..
first is that this is not a hydrogen fuel cell, its a protoculture fuel cell, so we can't say whether the engineering is similar or not.

OK, so... as I noted in an earlier post, the Cyclone's engine is specifically and explicitly described as operating on "the principles of old-fashioned hydrogen fuel cells" to extract energy from protoculture fuel. As we're told point-blank that the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell are used for protoculture, we have to reject this assertion of yours because it contradicts evidence from the RPG.

(That said, as I have noted previously I do not agree with the RPG's fuel cell line personally... and feel that protoculture cells are a technology probably closer in principle to a nuclear battery.)

second, even in monofuels you can often separate out the oxidizer component via other catalytic chemistry, breaking up molecules into the constituant parts. given that monofuels have to do this anyway to function this is not really a big problem.

So, apart from the points in the previous refutation that also apply to this one (arguing against the evidence)... unless the catalytic breakup of the fuel magically teleports the oxidizer to the other side of the electrolyte and cathode, you're still not going to have a scenario where you can produce a fuel cell reaction. Your argument doesn't make any scientific sense in the context of how a fuel cell works.

third, given the exotic nature and properties of the protoculture molecule in other uses, i see no reason that you couldn't end up with PC being fed into both sides of a fuel cell of the type you describe, and end up reacting with itself as it passed through the membranes.

That wouldn't be a fuel cell, then... because, by definition, a fuel cell generates its energy from the oxidation of the fuel. What you describe is a battery.

seriously, we don't know enough about the chemistry involved to be saying "oh well this real world thing means that won't work."

We know plenty about how a hydrogen fuel cell works... it's a technology that's at least 178 years old (206 years old from the RPG's perspective), and the RPG's Cyclone entry does tell us that a protoculture cell engine works on the same principles.

[eliakon]

Actually, by technical terms a Protculture Fuel Cell would be using Protoculture as the electrolyte substance since that is what determines the type of fuel cell.
Since I don't know enough about the chemical/physical properties of Protoculture to speculate on what would be involved in making a fuel cell with that as the electrolyte substance.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
From the Wikipedia section Types of fuel cells; design

Spoiler:

Fuel cells come in many varieties; however, they all work in the same general manner. They are made up of three adjacent segments: the anode, the electrolyte, and the cathode. Two chemical reactions occur at the interfaces of the three different segments. The net result of the two reactions is that fuel is consumed, water or carbon dioxide is created, and an electric current is created, which can be used to power electrical devices, normally referred to as the load.

At the anode a catalyst oxidizes the fuel, usually hydrogen, turning the fuel into a positively charged ion and a negatively charged electron. The electrolyte is a substance specifically designed so ions can pass through it, but the electrons cannot. The freed electrons travel through a wire creating the electric current. The ions travel through the electrolyte to the cathode. Once reaching the cathode, the ions are reunited with the electrons and the two react with a third chemical, usually oxygen, to create water or carbon dioxide.

The most important design features in a fuel cell are
The electrolyte substance. The electrolyte substance usually defines the type of fuel cell.
The fuel that is used. The most common fuel is hydrogen.
The anode catalyst breaks down the fuel into electrons and ions. The anode catalyst is usually made up of very fine platinum powder.
The cathode catalyst turns the ions into the waste chemicals like water or carbon dioxide. The cathode catalyst is often made up of nickel but it can also be a nanomaterial-based catalyst.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually, by technical terms a Protculture Fuel Cell would be using Protoculture as the electrolyte substance since that is what determines the type of fuel cell.

This is why teachers warn you that Wikipedia isn't something you should use for research...

The electrolyte material is used to differentiate between different fuel cell technologies that use a particular type of fuel... but when referring to fuel cells in general, they differentiate themselves on the basis of what the fuel material is. If you'd read a little farther down the page, you'd know that already. Indeed, when the RPG refers to fuel cells for comparison, they compare the protoculture cells to hydrogen fuel cells. Hydrogen isn't the electrolyte in a hydrogen fuel cell, it's the fuel.

It's pretty obvious from the presentation in the Robotech series and the descriptions in the various RPG books that protoculture is the fuel material from which the energy is actually generated.


EDIT: Spelling.

[eliakon]

Actually, by technical terms a Protculture Fuel Cell would be using Protoculture as the electrolyte substance since that is what determines the type of fuel cell.

This is why teachers warn you that Wikipedia isn't something you should use for research...

Actually its not supposed to be cited as an academic source.
But I missed the part where this was a formal academic debate? Can you cite it for me? Especially since your sources seem to be lacking as well....
(PS, the eye roll, while cute is also rather insulting. And I have told you previously to stop it. This is my last time asking nicely)

The electrolyte material is used to differentiate between different fuel cell technologies that use a particular type of fuel... but when referring to fuel cells in general, they differentiate themselves on the basis of what the fuel material is. [/quote]
So like, if these are hydrogen fuel cells (your claim) then it would differentiate by calling itself a Protoculture Fuel Cell because that is the electrolyte material?

[url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#Comparison_of_fuel_cell_types [/url]

I could have sworn someone was just being condisending to people that used Wikipedia as a source and said it wasn't valid....

If you'd read a little farther down the page, you'd know that already. Indeed, when the RPG refers to fuel cells for comparison, they compare the protoculture cells to hydrogen fuel cells. Hydrogen isn't the electrolyte in a hydrogen fuel cell, it's the fuel.

And in the meta type "Hydrogen fuel cells" the sub type is named by the Electrolyte. Yes.

It's pretty obvious from the presentation in the Robotech series and the descriptions in the various RPG books that protoculture is the fuel material from which the energy is actually generated.

Again, I have warned you about the insulting emoticons.
But which way is it?
Is the PC the fuel in the fuel cell or is that impossible. You have made claims both way.
If as you claim

Potentially, though the description on page 138 of the core book indicates that they work on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell... which suggests that the required input includes an oxidizing agent in addition to the protoculture and that the byproducts are water vapor and electrical current.

Then the fuel is hydrogen.
In which case the fuel can not also be Protoculture (unless you are positing that Protoculture is a form of Hydrogen)
In which case the sub type of hydrogen fuel cell is Protoculture.
If Protoculture is the fuel, then it can not ALSO be fueled by hydrogen.

[glitterboy2098]

Since the fuel cell discussion really is going no where without more details on how PC works, time for me to chime on on the original poster's questions.

Question 1: Would the backup fusion system be included in the Condor, Conbat, and Bioroid Interceptor as "The [insert list] has the same avionics and equipment package as the [insert Alpha or Beta as indicated in each] Fighter?" which is basically what the text says at the end of each entry when it identifies equipment and such, though that text could be reference to just the equipment on pgs 97-100 & 113-6.

I would say "no" to the Condor and Bioroid Interceptor. mainly on the principle that they are battloid units, while the Fusion generator is a fighter mode thing. if a GM wanted to rewrite the generators to fit battloids i'd not object though. i would say though that the Bioroid Interceptor might not have room for one, given that it lacks things like the cyclone storage bay due to its small size.

for the Conbat.. i could see it, though the conbat is supposed to be a design from well before the 2nd robotech war, and being retired by the time the UEEF figured out the invid on earth had protoculture targeting, so it may well not have had any installed, with no drive to refit with them.

Question 2: Hypothetically speaking: Assuming that the Backup system and Primary System can be engaged at the same time, what would the effects be in terms of performance?
Would the Alpha and Beta receive a boost to flying speed (and by how much 33%, more, less) or would there be no impact at all?
I would think that if the systems both use separate fuel, even if that exhaust product is injected into the main system's exhaust, it would improve the amount of thrust being generated and alter the flying speed. Basically the system is being used as an "after burner".

the amount of material being exhausted is unlikely to boost the mass being put out by the drives by an appreciable amount. and i don't think that the drives would have been designed to let you 'overcharge' them with extra energy. more likely attempting to pump more electrical power through would just mean damage to the engines.

the Alpha and Beta's drives are likely some form of plasma or quasi-fusion systems, similar to the (non-gravity based) propulsion drives on zentreadi and master's mecha. where the protoculture powerplant produces only electrical energy its useful output, which is then used to power the drives. the drives are supplied with reaction mass (in space this would be a liquid fuel, possibly something common like water. in atmosphere it would use atmospheric gasses sucked in by the intakes.)

the Backup generator system would basically just shut down the PC-powerplant, and fire up the fusion system, which would also produce electrical power, just via a different method. that electrical power then would power the drives. only since it is a backup system it can't power all of them at once, or even power the bigger main drives at the back of the fighter to full power.. the VTOL drives seem to be smaller, and they wouldn't need quite as much power as a Mach+ drive level would, so VTOL can be plausibly used without issue. (i would say though that acceleration from Vertical lift to horizontal flight would be slower than a conventional takeoff this way)

personally, i'd say that the backup fusion generator is designed to use something simple like water as its hydrogen source, and that tankage would be separate from the reaction mass tankage. (so that even if the fighter gets stranded in space due to running out of reaction mass, it could still run the backup generator. or it can use it in a battle without going through reaction mass faster)

[Seto Kaiba]

So like, if these are hydrogen fuel cells (your claim) then it would differentiate by calling itself a Protoculture Fuel Cell because that is the electrolyte material?

Incorrect. That is NOT my "claim". Please refrain from misrepresenting my position.

My position is, as indicated here and here, is that the RPG explicitly states (see page 138, item 11, of the "manga-size" core book) that the Cyclone's power system operates on the same principles that an "old-fashioned" hydrogen fuel cell does. I did NOT say that a protoculture fuel cell IS a hydrogen fuel cell, only that the book says the principles involved are the same. That strongly suggests that, as we have known from the show and as I have given indication in my previous posts on the subject, protoculture was/is the fuel material just as hydrogen is in a hydrogen fuel cell.

[url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#Comparison_of_fuel_cell_types [/url]

I could have sworn someone was just being condisending to people that used Wikipedia as a source and said it wasn't valid....

Amusingly, I didn't say THAT either... so I'd really appreciate it if you stopped putting words in my mouth.

What I DID say was that incomplete information like what you based your previous reply on is why teachers don't like students using Wikipedia for research... you took a single, poorly-phrased, bullet-point statement on a Wikipedia page as support for your position, and missed a good deal of additional relevant material that revealed the bullet point to be misleadingly phrased.

And in the meta type "Hydrogen fuel cells" the sub type is named by the Electrolyte. Yes.

That is true. Your previous contention, that fuel cells are predominantly identified by their electrolyte material, was false.

Again, I have warned you about the insulting emoticons.

That was an attempt at jocularity, actually... but whatever.

But which way is it?
Is the PC the fuel in the fuel cell or is that impossible. You have made claims both way.
If as you claim

Potentially, though the description on page 138 of the core book indicates that they work on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell... which suggests that the required input includes an oxidizing agent in addition to the protoculture and that the byproducts are water vapor and electrical current.

Then the fuel is hydrogen.
In which case the fuel can not also be Protoculture (unless you are positing that Protoculture is a form of Hydrogen)
In which case the sub type of hydrogen fuel cell is Protoculture.
If Protoculture is the fuel, then it can not ALSO be fueled by hydrogen.

That, again, is misrepresentation of my position... I have never suggested that protoculture was the electrolyte material.

Indeed, in the very statement you quoted, I identify protoculture and an oxidant as the active ingredients (fuel and oxidant) in the fuel cell, which are combined to produce water vapor and electrical current. The electrolyte is not an input to the system, it's the buffer between the anode/fuel and cathode/oxidant sides of the system. If it works on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell, as the RPG has contended, then the protoculture material is ionized at the anode and the ions drawn through an electrolyte material to the oxidant over on the cathode side, while the electrons shed by the ionization process are drawn from anode to cathode through an electrical circuit. Protoculture is the fuel.

[eliakon]

So like, if these are hydrogen fuel cells (your claim) then it would differentiate by calling itself a Protoculture Fuel Cell because that is the electrolyte material?

Incorrect. That is NOT my "claim". Please refrain from misrepresenting my position.

My position is, as indicated here and here, is that the RPG explicitly states (see page 138, item 11, of the "manga-size" core book) that the Cyclone's power system operates on the same principles that an "old-fashioned" hydrogen fuel cell does. I did NOT say that a protoculture fuel cell IS a hydrogen fuel cell, only that the book says the principles involved are the same. That strongly suggests that, as we have known from the show and as I have given indication in my previous posts on the subject, protoculture was/is the fuel material just as hydrogen is in a hydrogen fuel cell.

When you say that it has to oxidize and produce water as a byproduct while operating like a HFC, then yes...you are claiming it is an HFC.

[url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#Comparison_of_fuel_cell_types [/url]

I could have sworn someone was just being condisending to people that used Wikipedia as a source and said it wasn't valid....

Amusingly, I didn't say THAT either... so I'd really appreciate it if you stopped putting words in my mouth.

What I DID say was that incomplete information like what you based your previous reply on is why teachers don't like students using Wikipedia for research... you took a single, poorly-phrased, bullet-point statement on a Wikipedia page as support for your position, and missed a good deal of additional relevant material that revealed the bullet point to be misleadingly phrased.

Not really.
What I did was take a bullet point and point out that it was relevant.
You then insulted me, and said that it shouldn't be used for research.
Attempting now to backtrack and say that you didn't actually mean it and that you meant something you didn't say at all is...disingenuous to be nice.

And in the meta type "Hydrogen fuel cells" the sub type is named by the Electrolyte. Yes.

That is true. Your previous contention, that fuel cells are predominantly identified by their electrolyte material, was false.

Since we are discussing your claim that it is a HFC it is true.

Again, I have warned you about the insulting emoticons.

That was an attempt at jocularity, actually... but whatever.

That would be possibly relevant if it were not for the fact that you have been asked before not to do this.
That implies deliberate intent and not innocent fun.

But which way is it?
Is the PC the fuel in the fuel cell or is that impossible. You have made claims both way.
If as you claim

Potentially, though the description on page 138 of the core book indicates that they work on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell... which suggests that the required input includes an oxidizing agent in addition to the protoculture and that the byproducts are water vapor and electrical current.

Then the fuel is hydrogen.
In which case the fuel can not also be Protoculture (unless you are positing that Protoculture is a form of Hydrogen)
In which case the sub type of hydrogen fuel cell is Protoculture.
If Protoculture is the fuel, then it can not ALSO be fueled by hydrogen.

That, again, is misrepresentation of my position... I have never suggested that protoculture was the electrolyte material.

Indeed, in the very statement you quoted, I identify protoculture and an oxidant as the active ingredients (fuel and oxidant) in the fuel cell, which are combined to produce water vapor and electrical current. The electrolyte is not an input to the system, it's the buffer between the anode/fuel and cathode/oxidant sides of the system. If it works on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell, as the RPG has contended, then the protoculture material is ionized at the anode and the ions drawn through an electrolyte material to the oxidant over on the cathode side, while the electrons shed by the ionization process are drawn from anode to cathode through an electrical circuit. Protoculture is the fuel.

So your now contending that Protoculture is a hydrocarbon fuel?
Because as I said, you have just described a hydrogen fuel cell (fuel + Oxidizer = electricity + water)
Like I said, you can't have it both ways. Either it is a hydrogen fuel cell or it isn't. One can not simply take parts of both states and then try and use this as a justification for why the cell can not actually work.

[Seto Kaiba]

When you say that it has to oxidize and produce water as a byproduct while operating like a HFC, then yes...you are claiming it is an HFC.

Nope... this latest assertion of yours is also incorrect. While the RPG does explicitly identify protoculture engines as operating on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell, the specific properties you've identified and are claiming to be unique/distinct to hydrogen fuel cells are nothing of the kind.

In point of fact, all fuel cell technologies produce electrical current via the oxidation of a fuel... that is quite literally the key defining trait of a fuel cell. Furthermore, hydrogen fuel cells are far from unique in that the cell's chemical reaction produces water. Water is also a reaction product in fuel cells that use metal hydride, borohydride, formic acid, methanol, ethanol, and molten carbonate for fuel. (Water is also produced as an intermediate material in an assortment of other fuel cell technologies, including Zinc-air and certain alkaline fuel cell formulations, some of which also have water-related reaction products like hydroxide.)

Since we are discussing your claim that it is a HFC it is true.

As I have now indicated several times, you are not actually addressing my stance at all... because I have never said that protoculture cells are hydrogen fuel cells. I have merely pointed out that the text of the RPG core book says on no uncertain terms that the protoculture power system on the Cyclone produces power from protoculture using the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell... principles which are not, by any means, actually unique to fuel cells using hydrogen fuel. All fuel cells produce power via the oxidation of a fuel, and many produce water as a product of the chemical reaction. The first paragraph of this post has a brief list of several different fuels that meet that criteria... and there's no reason to believe protoculture wouldn't simply be another addition to that list.

Then the fuel is hydrogen.
In which case the fuel can not also be Protoculture (unless you are positing that Protoculture is a form of Hydrogen)
In which case the sub type of hydrogen fuel cell is Protoculture.
If Protoculture is the fuel, then it can not ALSO be fueled by hydrogen.

No... as I have indicated above, the properties of hydrogen fuel cells are by no means unique to hydrogen fuel cell technology. Indeed, of the two properties you honed in on... one is common to all fuel cell technologies, while the other is common to at least seven different families of fuel cells.

If a protoculture cell is operating, as described, on the same principles as a hydrogen fuel cell... that means that a protoculture fuel is ionized at the anode, and passes across the electrolyte to bond with oxygen at the cathode as those electrons freed during the ionization produce electrical current as they're drawn through the circuit which is connecting the anode and cathode. In the process, you get some water as protons bond to electrons and bond to oxygen molecules at the cathode, and probably some other stuff too depending on protoculture's actual chemical makeup.

So your now contending that Protoculture is a hydrocarbon fuel?
Because as I said, you have just described a hydrogen fuel cell (fuel + Oxidizer = electricity + water)
Like I said, you can't have it both ways. Either it is a hydrogen fuel cell or it isn't. One can not simply take parts of both states and then try and use this as a justification for why the cell can not actually work.

Okay, a few different factual problems with this latest assertion of yours...

First, you're asserting the existence of an absolute that doesn't actually exist in fuel cell technologies... I've said quite a bit about that in previous paragraphs, so it doesn't bear repeating again.

Second, I'm not trying to have it both ways... that's a straw man you've set up for yourself instead of addressing my actual point. My argument has always been that the RPG says that the protoculture engine in the cyclone uses the same principles as hydrogen fuel cell technology... principles which are common to many families of fuel cell.

Third, you're also misrepresenting the relevance this has to the Cyclone's engine description in general... I'm not claiming that a protoculture fuel cell cannot function (clearly it must work in the setting), what I AM saying is the notion that a rotary combustion engine is being powered by fuel cells makes no sense. A fuel cell's output is not combustible gas... it's electrical current. I suspect the book's writers were confused as to the different methods being used for "hydrogen-fueled" vehicles... one being hydrogen internal combustion engines, the other being the electric vehicle w/ hydrogen fuel cell powerplant route.

(As a side note, I would expect that protoculture could probably be recomposed into hydrocarbons... it is organic material, after all, which means it should be rich in hydrogen and carbon.)

[ShadowLogan]

The thing is... the Robotech animated series has a LOT of areas of dialog inconsistency with itself or the visuals, and no small number of cases where made-up terms were used without context or real terms were used incorrectly. I'm a little hesitant to take the "manual impulse" thing as an indication of a fusion system for precisely that reason.

This instance though is not an inconsistent dialogue/visual though, unless we assume the smoke screen also blocked PC emissions (IIRC there are no POV shots from Invid while in the cloud and before MI). It isn't like the multiple names for the AGAC battloid-mode that come to mind. While I can agree it isn't a firm indication of fusion, we know it is an indication of something and we know they have the technology, though off-hand I don't recall if the term fusion is actually used but "impulse power" is used previously in similar context as an alternative to PC, so an impulse system is being used consistently I think so short of inventing something else to put in its place...

(Vince's little jump in Prelude was from one artificial atmosphere to another, and thus probably doesn't count).

Not to mention momentum, the fact they where already in the extreme high altitude atmosphere of Optera (which might be enough) as we are shown the re-entry shockwave on the nose, etc.

Given that three PC-cells create an explosion on par with a couple dozen pounds of TNT, i doubt you could adapt an existing engine to run off it. you could probably engineer a special engine to use it though. i suspect though that like the Gunpowder Engine good results would probably not be very easy to achieve.

I doubt you'd want to adapt an existing engine, I was thinking more along the lines of a new design, using the principles of an ICE operation.

The PC-cell explosion in Ep75 though there are several problems here in gauging the output as we know the energy density of the material is better than conventional nuclear, which requires us to consider
-do we know if the cells are fully charged (IINM their status is omitted)
-do we know if the detonation setup was ideal
-are we sure the explosion was purely PC in origin and not the release of the substance from great pressure doing all the work. This rules out use as an ICE, but it would be something to consider in assessing the situation. I agree most people (myself included) probably do assume the PC was detonated, but if it wasn't...

for the Conbat.. i could see it, though the conbat is supposed to be a design from well before the 2nd robotech war, and being retired by the time the UEEF figured out the invid on earth had protoculture targeting, so it may well not have had any installed, with no drive to refit with them.

The Conbat though does date back to the era of fusion as a primary power source, and PC was new so a conventional "backup system" might make sense.

the amount of material being exhausted is unlikely to boost the mass being put out by the drives by an appreciable amount. and i don't think that the drives would have been designed to let you 'overcharge' them with extra energy. more likely attempting to pump more electrical power through would just mean damage to the engines.

While the actual mass is likely not going to be significant, the fact the mass will have velocity (though likely not as much as the PC) means that it will impart force to the mecha. The fact the Alpha can VTOL in this states gives us an estimate of over 18,000kg* of extra thrust being potentially available (as it was shown to VTOL with payload) as for VTOL operation you need a thrust-weight ratio of greater than 1. For comparison, if RT uses the OSM specs, the Alpha's x4 ATF engines deliver 19,200kg of thrust (this doesn't count any thrust the JG engines deliver which are only rated in shp), that essentially doubles the Alpha's thrust.

*18,000kg = dry mass of Alpha + as it is shown to lift off with an implied/explicit load of pilot, a cyclone, a gunpod, 60SRMs, and 8 mini-missiles that by the 2E RPG amount to nearly 1,300kg w/o the pilot. Yes kg is not the proper unit for force, but since we have to convert the mass to weight (a force), and such a comparison only cares if they are in the same units.

Since we don't really know if the Alpha/Beta are using the PC/fusion directly (I think they would as it likely is more fuel efficient) vs indirectly. Even in an indirect setup I can see the engines needing to be able to handle the load from both energy sources potentially operating together for a moment causing a spike. If there is such a spike, then the system has to be able to handle that spike, and during that short term spike there is the potential for more powerful engines. If that spike can be maintained/handled for longer periods of time performance will be altered.

SOP may be not to use the two systems together though given the text, but it doesn't rule out the systems working together but it also doesn't say they can. For my question/scenario we assume that they can work together and I'm trying to determine what impact that has on performance.

[Seto Kaiba]

This instance though is not an inconsistent dialogue/visual though, unless we assume the smoke screen also blocked PC emissions (IIRC there are no POV shots from Invid while in the cloud and before MI).

More a case of ambiguous terminology... what is "manual impulse"? We aren't told.

Not to mention momentum, the fact they where already in the extreme high altitude atmosphere of Optera (which might be enough) as we are shown the re-entry shockwave on the nose, etc.

I'm not certain the percentage of oxygen would be high enough for an air-breathing fuel cell to function that high up... but the rest, yeah.

I doubt you'd want to adapt an existing engine, I was thinking more along the lines of a new design, using the principles of an ICE operation.

That, I suppose, would depend principally upon what state of matter processed protoculture fuel exists in at STP... IINM it's not clear, officially, whether protoculture is a solid, liquid, or gas in its fuel state. Likewise, it's not clear if protoculture could ignite on its own or if it needs a particular stoichiometric ratio to atmospheric oxygen to burn optimally. The list of unknowns is high, but realistically speaking its use in an existing combustion engine isn't completely off the table under certain circumstances. (It is, for example, not impossible to run a car with a non-flexfuel engine on distilled ethanol or even hydrogen gas if injected directly into the intakes. The same is true for diesel engines, which can run on filtered deep fat fryer oil with little-to-no modification if one doesn't mind a rather appalling smell.)

*18,000kg = dry mass of Alpha + as it is shown to lift off with an implied/explicit load of pilot, a cyclone, a gunpod, 60SRMs, and 8 mini-missiles that by the 2E RPG amount to nearly 1,300kg w/o the pilot. Yes kg is not the proper unit for force, but since we have to convert the mass to weight (a force), and such a comparison only cares if they are in the same units.

Strictly speaking, the unit you'd want is kilograms-force... which in this case really just means slapping an "f" onto the end of the "kg", as we're talking the force necessary to negate the pull of gravity on an object of that mass. As a semi-related matter, that would give the Alpha a dry t/w ratio of 2.234, firmly in the realm of "not bad".

[guardiandashi]

That, I suppose, would depend principally upon what state of matter processed protoculture fuel exists in at STP... IINM it's not clear, officially, whether protoculture is a solid, liquid, or gas in its fuel state. Likewise, it's not clear if protoculture could ignite on its own or if it needs a particular stoichiometric ratio to atmospheric oxygen to burn optimally. The list of unknowns is high, but realistically speaking its use in an existing combustion engine isn't completely off the table under certain circumstances. (It is, for example, not impossible to run a car with a non-flexfuel engine on distilled ethanol or even hydrogen gas if injected directly into the intakes. The same is true for diesel engines, which can run on filtered deep fat fryer oil with little-to-no modification if one doesn't mind a rather appalling smell.)

nitpicks
yes a regular gasoline (ethane technically) can run on ethanol quite well although it requires some modifications to the carburetor (or injection system) to adjust the fuel to air ratios, (ethane optimal ratio is ~14:1 wheras ethanol is ~9:1 ) per http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... drane.html

for a diesel motor running on filtered vegetable oil or used fryer oil (often available for cheap, free or in some cases the restaurant may even pay you to dispose of it... ) does tend to make the vehicles exhaust smell rather appalling... if you hate the smell of French fries ....

[ShadowLogan]

More a case of ambiguous terminology... what is "manual impulse"? We aren't told.

I'm going to avoid the adjective "manual" since the context suggests that they are manually engaging the"impulse" system IMHO. What we know is that Impulse both here and an earlier instance are used to designate an alternate system capable of standing in for PC when it comes to propulsion. So while I agree we don't know what "impulse" refers to exactly (fusion, fission, hamsters running in wheels, etc), we know what it is used for (non-PC propulsion).

Given the Masters use "impulse power" for interstellar travel, we likely are looking at a system with a lot of energy potential (which means nuclear fusion at minimum).

I'm not certain the percentage of oxygen would be high enough for an air-breathing fuel cell to function that high up... but the rest, yeah.

It really depends on how much oxygen the PC needs in the fuelcell setup. We don't know the altitude either, but scramjets are capable of operating at much higher altitudes in theory IINM. Nor do we know how Operta's atmosphere differs from Earth (does it have more/less oxygen).

IINM it's not clear, officially, whether protoculture is a solid, liquid, or gas in its fuel state.

I don't think it is ever established what state of matter PC is actually in when it is in those canisters.

Based on the show, it might be implied in TRM saga that it is all 3, though some may not be at STP:
-FoL pod was filled with fluid
-solid (living PC computer Louie tried to hose before being captured by it)
-liquid (or dissolved solid/gas into the liquid) for bio-energy supplements for clones
-gas (ship systems, including cloning)

Strictly speaking, the unit you'd want is kilograms-force... which in this case really just means slapping an "f" onto the end of the "kg", as we're talking the force necessary to negate the pull of gravity on an object of that mass. As a semi-related matter, that would give the Alpha a dry t/w ratio of 2.234, firmly in the realm of "not bad".

Yes it would effect the T/W ratio in that way if the (OSM) JG-# engines can assist the (OSM) ATF-# engines. Fully loaded the Alpha would be at ~2.0 t/w ratio. As the Z is supposed to have more powerful engines (and using GearsOnline) that would put it at ~2.305 dry (~2.13 fully loaded), though the Shadow model drops a bit because of the extra mass of the gunpod.

And if the "Impulse"/Fusion system is assumed to run concurrent with the PC JG/ATFs as an "afterburner" that jumps up to ~3.3 in a dry config (and drops down to t/w of 3.0 fully loaded) for the H/I.

[Seto Kaiba]

Given the Masters use "impulse power" for interstellar travel, we likely are looking at a system with a lot of energy potential (which means nuclear fusion at minimum).

Personally, I'd be somewhat hesitant to assume that the Masters and humanity are referring to the same technology when they say "impulse"... especially when the precise meaning of several of their remarks relating to their trip to the Sol system are rather hotly disputed.

It really depends on how much oxygen the PC needs in the fuelcell setup. We don't know the altitude either, but scramjets are capable of operating at much higher altitudes in theory IINM. Nor do we know how Operta's atmosphere differs from Earth (does it have more/less oxygen).

They were still getting significant aerodynamic heating from the ship's uncontrolled reentry, so I suspect they were still rather high up... so much so that Vince Grant's very brief exposure to it was apparently enough to heat his Cyclone to the point where it wasn't safe to touch.

I don't think it is ever established what state of matter PC is actually in when it is in those canisters.

Based on the show, it might be implied in TRM saga that it is all 3, though some may not be at STP:
-FoL pod was filled with fluid
-solid (living PC computer Louie tried to hose before being captured by it)
-liquid (or dissolved solid/gas into the liquid) for bio-energy supplements for clones
-gas (ship systems, including cloning)

Yeah, that's why I posed the question... we can't really make any determination as to what state protoculture is in when it's in a cell like that, as any of them could technically still be true in the context of Lunk's remark about how protoculture tastes terrible. If the Cyclone's engine is indeed burning protoculture for some insane reason, liquid and gas-phase internal combustion engines are both fairly well-understood technologies. If it's a solid... well... that poses a problem and would require a radically different engine of a type that has never really worked in practice. (The Huygens, Cayley, and Paine concepts are mechanically unfeasible, and others haven't had much better luck.)

Yes it would effect the T/W ratio in that way if the (OSM) JG-# engines can assist the (OSM) ATF-# engines. Fully loaded the Alpha would be at ~2.0 t/w ratio. As the Z is supposed to have more powerful engines (and using GearsOnline) that would put it at ~2.305 dry (~2.13 fully loaded), though the Shadow model drops a bit because of the extra mass of the gunpod.

There's one area of uncertainty that we have to account for if we're calculating thrust-to-weight ratios for the Legioss/Alpha... there isn't a clear statement as to how many of its engines are actually being used in level flight. It could be using anywhere from two of them to all six. So, if we operate on the assumption that each of the JG-97M main engines is twice as powerful as the ATF-401, the picture looks something like this:

AFC-01 Legioss / VF/A-6 Alpha Thrust-to-Weight Ratio Estimation
Dry Mass: 16,700kg
Est. Pilot Mass: 80kg (typical 95th percentile North American male)
Est. Fuel Mass: 300kg (350L of metallic hydrogen propellant, wing tanks)
Est. Loadings: 1,300kg (your ballpark figure, may increase for Shadow Fighter)
Total Loaded Mass: 18,380kg

Est. Main Engine Thrust: 9,600kgf [x2] for JG-79M (94.144kN/ea)
Sub-Engine Max Thrust: 4,800kgf [x4] for ATF-401 (47.072kN/ea)

Est. Thrust-to-Weight (Dry):

• Main Engines Only: 1.150
• +2 Sub-Engines: 1.724
• +4 Sub-Engines: 2.299

Est. Thrust-to-Weight (Full):

• Main Engines Only: 1.045
• +2 Sub-Engines: 1.567
• +4 Sub-Engines: 2.089

If we assume the difference in engine output is linear between the shp and thrust, that puts the -Z variant at 10,696kgf per engine, and the ATF-415s at their listed 5100kgf...
Est. Thrust-to-Weight (Dry):

• Main Engines Only: 1.281
• +2 Sub-Engines: 1.892
• +4 Sub-Engines: 2.502

Est. Thrust-to-Weight (Full):

• Main Engines Only: 1.164
• +2 Sub-Engines: 1.719
• +4 Sub-Engines: 2.274

To put that into perspective, the VF-1A Valkyrie is rated at 3.471 dry and 2.486 normally... the VF-1S is rated at 3.773 dry and 2.703 normally, about a 19% difference loaded (vs. a 51% difference dry, because of all the hung weaponry the VF-1 has). The difference is bigger if the VF-1's three rocket sub-engines are involved, but they're normally not used like that so I've left them out.

And if the "Impulse"/Fusion system is assumed to run concurrent with the PC JG/ATFs as an "afterburner" that jumps up to ~3.3 in a dry config (and drops down to t/w of 3.0 fully loaded) for the H/I.

Assuming that it can produce a temporary increase of 33% net engine output, that gets you up to about 51,200kgf net thrust... that'll put the stock Alpha up to roughly 3.066 dry, and 2.786 loaded. I'm hesitant to apply the same estimation to the -Z variant, since I'm rather unwilling to believe the same backup system will magically produce 11% more power just by being installed on a different VF.

If we assume that it just produces 12,800kgf in additional output (33% of the Alpha's normal main thrust), that puts the VF/A-6Z into the territory of 1.860 on its main engines, 2.415 with two sub-engines, and 2.970 under a normal combat load for however long that generator can run alongside the engines safely (presumably not very long, if at all).

[eliakon]

Given the Masters use "impulse power" for interstellar travel, we likely are looking at a system with a lot of energy potential (which means nuclear fusion at minimum).

Personally, I'd be somewhat hesitant to assume that the Masters and humanity are referring to the same technology when they say "impulse"... especially when the precise meaning of several of their remarks relating to their trip to the Sol system are rather hotly disputed.

I dunno....
claiming that the same word has different meanings depending on who says it seems overly complicated and starts down a really slippery slope....
If the Masters and the Humans use different meanings for the word Impulse, are their words "Reflex Weapons" the same? Or "Protoculture" or really anything?

[Seto Kaiba]

I dunno....
claiming that the same word has different meanings depending on who says it seems overly complicated and starts down a really slippery slope....
If the Masters and the Humans use different meanings for the word Impulse, are their words "Reflex Weapons" the same? Or "Protoculture" or really anything?

I might agree with you, if not for the following points:

• The meaning of various terms and statements in the relevant scene is already a contentious subject... better to err on the side of caution.
• The Robotech animated series is known to have a number of cases in all three sagas in which terms are used inconsistently and/or incorrectly, and Harmony Gold's staff have refuted the idea that the show is infallible. Examples include:
  - Dolza, Breetai, and Exedore referencing the Macross meaning of the term "Protoculture" in Ep11.
  - Frequent misidentification of mecha and equipment such as referring to a dropped gun pod as a "missile" in Ep10, referring to non-transforming aircraft as "veritechs", referring to a battloid mode as guardian (or vice versa) on the Logan, or identifying the Invid as single-celled lifeforms.
• Official print sources are similarly not consistent in their description of types of technology. For example, the Infopedia lists the "reflex cannon" as a heavy particle beam weapon on most ships, but one has it listed as an "electromagnetic fusion beam" instead.
• Depictions of technology between Robotech titles is not always consistent (e.g. the Shadow Fighter's stealth going from a design change in the engine to a cloaking device between the series and RTSC).
• In many sci-fi titles (and, indeed, the real world) the same general term can be used to refer to wildly different technologies that achieve the same result... examples include:
  - "Jet engine" covers a multitude of designs including turbojets, turbofans, turboprops, propjets, ramjets, scramjets, etc.
  - "Nuclear weapon" is used to refer to both fission and fusion warheads, as well as radiological weapons.
  - "Impulse engine" in Star Trek encompasses two different technologies (possibly more)... a subspace field-assisted fusion rocket, and a low-intensity warp drive effect powered by plasma from a fusion reactor. Similarly, Star Trek's "disruptors" and "phasers" cover a multitude of types of weapons including exotic particle beams, antiparticle beams, plasma, and even focused sonic weapons.
  - "Reaction weaponry" in Macross is one umbrella term for two (potentially three) families of warhead... ersatz-nukes that use extra-dimensional heavy quanta as a fusion trigger, pair-annihilation warheads, and dimension eaters (fold bombs).

Essentially, taken at face value there's no guarantee that the Masters' apparent near-lightspeed "impulse" is the same (or even similar to) what is assumed to be a low-powered emergency operating condition for the Alpha fighter.