Shadow Cloak and combat

[Sparticus]

Ok so I know what bonuses the Shadow Cloak gives the Shadow Fighter when its active but what about missile combat and ranged combat in general. The system keeps someone from finding the ship using sensors but what about the bonuses that guided missiles get of a mecha’s cannons. What does the system do to someone trying to use the Weapon System to target the ship? My gut tells me that the Shadow Cloak removes any targeting bonus a missile or mecha’s other weapon systems might get and should probably impose some kind of penalty to the Weapon Systems skill. Still unsure though so if anyone has suggestions or better yet examples they use I’m all ears.

[ShadowLogan]

Really the Shadow Cloak's ability to negate bonuses likely rests on the sensor being used for targeting, and possibly even range depending on the sensor. The Shadow System would not block an optical tracking system for instance, but it does appear to negate Radar.

[Sparticus]

Really the Shadow Cloak's ability to negate bonuses likely rests on the sensor being used for targeting, and possibly even range depending on the sensor. The Shadow System would not block an optical tracking system for instance, but it does appear to negate Radar.

So missiles and cannons keep their bonuses to strike it’s just you have to used visual tracking and targeting, thus you have to keep the fighter in your sights and not brake visual combat. No using radar locks to fire missiles at beyond visual range kind of stuff.

[ShadowLogan]

In all likely hood the gunpod/cannons already use optical tracking, but missiles likely use radar (and/or optical part of the spectrum that is shadowed/stealthed) as the default system. Optical tracking/targeting doesn't appear to be used for missiles as an option until the Super Shadow Fighters, though I suspect that such a system can be distributed and made available to older designs (it currently isn't).

The Shadow Systems will render Radar useless, but the passive stealth that is human derived will reduce the detection range.

[Alrik Vas]

So unguided mini-missiles wouldn't be effected. Though cyclones are the only mecha with those, right?

[eliakon]

Even guided missiles will be 'fine' they just wont get the +5 to strike from being guided. Its not like they magically automatically miss because your in cloak.

[ShadowLogan]

So unguided mini-missiles wouldn't be effected. Though cyclones are the only mecha with those, right?

The Cyclone isn't the only mecha to use Mini-Missiles (Condor battloid can, Alpha-H/I/Z does, IINM there are more). However according to palladium missiles aren't guided except in rare instances in 2E, though Palladium now considers "guided" to be a reference to self/independent guidance and not dependent on the launch platform per RT TSC main book pg242-3manga size.

So basically mini-missiles, SRMS and such now take their guidance cues from the launcher and are not self-guided. Basically missiles lose any equipment bonus to strike as you are Mark-1 Eyeballing it.

[glitterboy2098]

In all likely hood the gunpod/cannons already use optical tracking, but missiles likely use radar (and/or optical part of the spectrum that is shadowed/stealthed) as the default system. Optical tracking/targeting doesn't appear to be used for missiles as an option until the Super Shadow Fighters, though I suspect that such a system can be distributed and made available to older designs (it currently isn't).

The Shadow Systems will render Radar useless, but the passive stealth that is human derived will reduce the detection range.

real world fighters use radar to help aim their guns though.** main range finding and tracking to help calculate deflection and stuff, but with something like a VF i'd imagine that radar would contribute to helping pin down where a target is relative to the mecha's arm/turret/etc movements.

after all, when we see battloid mode combat in the show from the 'inside the cockpit' perspective, it looks rather like a video game, the pilot using controls to move crosshairs around a screen. this would suggest a LOT of computer assistance, and without the full range of sensors the calculations will be much fuzzier.

i have no doubt that optical w/parralax and such can and is be used, but i suspect that without radar to give the computers accurate range and location data, accuracy will suffer.


**one of the reasons the early wargames with the F-22 involved showed the F-22 so hard to kill in WVR dogfights.. their stealth meant that the calculations for the guns were getting messed up and the resulting guncamera footage used to confirm gun 'kills' didn't really work out. eventually pilots started relying more on simulated IR missiles and doing the gun deflection math in their head, leading to the F-22's becoming a bit less godlike. (though it's high agility remained an issue.. hard to even get them into sight.)

[Seto Kaiba]

real world fighters use radar to help aim their guns though.** main range finding and tracking to help calculate deflection and stuff, but with something like a VF i'd imagine that radar would contribute to helping pin down where a target is relative to the mecha's arm/turret/etc movements.

OSM-ly, yes... radar was one of the sensor systems involved in aiming gun pods in Macross and MOSPEADA. However, it was used in tandem with a multitude of other sensors both inside the gun and the mecha itself. The VF-1 Valkyrie's aiming system is known to have used radar, multiple types of laser, optical, and infrared sensors for aiming. The AFC-01 Legioss (RT's Alpha fighter) is known to have used radar and optics for aiming, and probably used laser as well considering how common laser ranging and guidance was in other Mars Base equipment.

[glitterboy2098]

so basically, you can't count on any modifiers from the weapon, vehicle systems, or MECT when figting a cloaked enemy. i would presume that WP's would still count since that's more of the "the pilot is doing the math in his head" stuff, which could help offset the reduced accuracy of the computer aiming.

honestly, the biggest question i have regarding shadow cloaks are:
can the cloaked unit use its own radar for targeting? (and if so, could the mechanism by which that is allowed be usable as an exploit to allow enemies to penetrate the cloak?)
How do cloaked units communicate? (same follow up question as above)

[Zer0 Kay]

In all likely hood the gunpod/cannons already use optical tracking, but missiles likely use radar (and/or optical part of the spectrum that is shadowed/stealthed) as the default system. Optical tracking/targeting doesn't appear to be used for missiles as an option until the Super Shadow Fighters, though I suspect that such a system can be distributed and made available to older designs (it currently isn't).

The Shadow Systems will render Radar useless, but the passive stealth that is human derived will reduce the detection range.

real world fighters use radar to help aim their guns though.** main range finding and tracking to help calculate deflection and stuff, but with something like a VF i'd imagine that radar would contribute to helping pin down where a target is relative to the mecha's arm/turret/etc movements.

after all, when we see battloid mode combat in the show from the 'inside the cockpit' perspective, it looks rather like a video game, the pilot using controls to move crosshairs around a screen. this would suggest a LOT of computer assistance, and without the full range of sensors the calculations will be much fuzzier.

i have no doubt that optical w/parralax and such can and is be used, but i suspect that without radar to give the computers accurate range and location data, accuracy will suffer.


**one of the reasons the early wargames with the F-22 involved showed the F-22 so hard to kill in WVR dogfights.. their stealth meant that the calculations for the guns were getting messed up and the resulting guncamera footage used to confirm gun 'kills' didn't really work out. eventually pilots started relying more on simulated IR missiles and doing the gun deflection math in their head, leading to the F-22's becoming a bit less godlike. (though it's high agility remained an issue.. hard to even get them into sight.)

As of 2009 Elmendorf's F-22s vs. Elmendorf's F-15s... one 22 in five sorties all 15. Yeah, that was a great day to run into 15 jockeys, talk about mad little children.

[guardiandashi]

so basically, you can't count on any modifiers from the weapon, vehicle systems, or MECT when figting a cloaked enemy. i would presume that WP's would still count since that's more of the "the pilot is doing the math in his head" stuff, which could help offset the reduced accuracy of the computer aiming.

honestly, the biggest question i have regarding shadow cloaks are:
can the cloaked unit use its own radar for targeting? (and if so, could the mechanism by which that is allowed be usable as an exploit to allow enemies to penetrate the cloak?)
How do cloaked units communicate? (same follow up question as above)

they may use radar but I expect it would mostly be "passive" radar not active
I believe they would rely fairly heavily on ladar, and laser communications which are essentially point to point systems. but that works better on friendly units, and targeting non stealth units.

[glitterboy2098]

the problem with 'passive radar' is that such a system is basically a radio receiver. it requires a source of radio signals (like another radar, or a communications system in the right frequency, in some more recent examples) to function. since Invid do not use radar this rather limits their options.
further if they can let signals into the cloak, by all rights they should be able to let signals out as well. and given that the invid do not use radar themselves, and the common invid mecha don't seem to have the ability to detect radio signals at all, active radar might not be a hindrance.

that said i too would have assumed that they made use of LiDAR, mainly because it would be the reasonable assumption given the cloak does not effect visible light in any fashion. the flipside of that though is LiDAR would work great against other shadow cloak units (like haydonite mecha), so it seems unlikely that if they were using LiDAR for targeting, that the UEEF would have had so much trouble targeting the haydonite wraiths.

further the RPG does not list LiDAR as a sensor for any of the UEEF's mecha.

honestly though.. given that real world use of LiDAR for anything other than imaging and terrain mapping is fairly limited (especially back in the 80's and 90's where the RT timeline serious diverges from the real world) it may be that the UEEF just didn't think of it.. and just used radar. after all the invid wouldn't notice, and once Edward's forces had been taken out (as seen in prelude) they hadn't expected to encounter enemies with the tech so soon.

prelude also suggests that the UEEF rushed shadow tech into use as a result of Edwards conflict to counter the advantage of Edwards shadow fighters (and to make the attack on the homeworld of the Regent less suicidal), and we don;t really see the UEEF using any special targeting device in those final battles vs Edwards. in fact the shadow fighter vs shadow fighter battles at optera get described as "over a century of technological progress, and we're right back to world war one dogfights" by Lt. Taylor.

that said i bet the Haydonites would use LiDAR extensively since they have had shadow tech for a lot longer, and their general tech level is supposed to be much higher. thankfully the RPG does not provide details on the haydonite mecha's sensors beyond a few suggestions and giving the GM's leeway.

[Seto Kaiba]

honestly, the biggest question i have regarding shadow cloaks are:
can the cloaked unit use its own radar for targeting? (and if so, could the mechanism by which that is allowed be usable as an exploit to allow enemies to penetrate the cloak?)
How do cloaked units communicate? (same follow up question as above)

Since Edwards' shadow fighters seem to be perfectly capable of scoring kills on Alpha fighters with guided missiles in Prelude, and UEEF shadow fighters are capable of the same against the Invid, that the radar is functional while the shadow field is enabled...

My guess for how this could work would be that electromagnetic fields that interact with the shadow field aren't actually absorbed or dissipated, but rather subjected to the field's slight 4th dimensional shift... putting that energy out of sync with the material universe just slightly enough that it can't be detected by platforms that don't have the same 4th dimensional shift. So, fighters and ships that have the same 4th dimensional shift could see each other and communicate normally, but others that aren't shifted to the same level are unable to detect or communicate with them.

I'm not basing that on anything, that's just my wild guess attempt to rationalize the fact that friendly shadow fighters can detect and communicate with each other but hostile ones can't.

they may use radar but I expect it would mostly be "passive" radar not active
I believe they would rely fairly heavily on ladar, and laser communications which are essentially point to point systems. but that works better on friendly units, and targeting non stealth units.

They don't seem to have LIDAR/LADAR systems, because on the occasions we've seen shadow-stealthed mecha fighting other shadow-stealthed mecha they've been fighting by eyeball. Shadow fields don't block light, so a LIDAR system should be able to detect shadow stealthed craft a long way off, and we never see that happen (particularly in a number of cases where it would've saved lives).

Laser communication would seem likely though, if it can be made to work during maneuvering (tricky but not impossible).

[glitterboy2098]

guided missiles have their own sensor systems for terminal homing, and initial launch and flightpath programming can be done using non-radar sensors, so the battle over tyrol isn't really telling us much. the fact that Lt.Taylor specifically calls out the shadow cloak's ability to negate missile guidance in prelude though does at least confirm that guided missiles shouldn't work normally vs shadow cloaks. (which should be obvious, but sometimes writers have to point out the obvious anyway to ensure the fans get it)

honestly the fact that the missiles fired by the super shadow fighters in the film's last battle do seem to have a limited degree of homing (as opposed to being straight line deadfire rounds) suggests that the UEEF may have been working on some form of 'anti-shadow cloak' tech. (personally, i'd make it simple.. datalink to the missiles so they can use the firing vehicle's optical sensors to bypass needing to use their onboard guidance radar's. similar to how the newer models of the AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM (and a number of their overseas equivalents) have been able to do in real life since about the mid 90's. though given the lack of IRST's and other visual targeting systems until recently, generally meant they were pulling flight data from the firing aircraft's on radar until they hit terminal range. an RT visual sensors only equivalent of this tech would basically be Semi-automatic command line of sight tech. keep the target within a certain viewing arc on your visual sensors, and the computers automatically figure out how the missiles need to move to reach it. this would seem to fit the visuals of that last battle, at least.

[ShadowLogan]

so basically, you can't count on any modifiers from the weapon, vehicle systems, or MECT when figting a cloaked enemy. i would presume that WP's would still count since that's more of the "the pilot is doing the math in his head" stuff, which could help offset the reduced accuracy of the computer aiming.

MECT I think would be safe as that is really a skill like WP, so if you think WP still counts then MECT skill should to.

honestly, the biggest question i have regarding shadow cloaks are:
can the cloaked unit use its own radar for targeting? (and if so, could the mechanism by which that is allowed be usable as an exploit to allow enemies to penetrate the cloak?)
How do cloaked units communicate? (same follow up question as above)

We know that the Shadow system allows communications and such. How it can work/factors (some been mentioned):
-Laser based systems replacing radio (so laser com and LIDAR) as optical light isn't affected (lasers aren't effected). There is no indication they have LIDAR though, IINM laser com should be available
-the shadow field is one-way (it can receive but not transmit/reflect), this requires using passive sensors (which can have it's own set of problems)
-fluctuations in PC emissions (that tip off the synthetic nature of the Bio-Emulator per dialogue) that the field masks might also be duplicated in the shadow field giving potential windows for "conventional" emissions (likely using stealth low probability of intercept)
-the shadow distorts outgoing signals so another shadow shielded object can detect
-shadow system really only shields certain radar bands/frequencies and/or is not as effective on some band/frequencies as others, the Shadow System is also supported by secondary conventional stealth technology which suggests the Shadow Field isn't 100% perfect in the radio part of the Em spectrum
-if the field can be tightly controlled in where it covers, perhaps they use conventional approaches to stealth communications/sensors by not having the shadow field covering those antennas.
-they might have some control over what gets blocked or not, which would allow them to leave gaps for active emissions modelled after conventional stealth technologies that are supposed to be low probability of intercept

guided missiles have their own sensor systems for terminal homing, and initial launch and flightpath programming can be done using non-radar sensors, so the battle over tyrol isn't really telling us much. the fact that Lt.Taylor specifically calls out the shadow cloak's ability to negate missile guidance in prelude though does at least confirm that guided missiles shouldn't work normally vs shadow cloaks. (which should be obvious, but sometimes writers have to point out the obvious anyway to ensure the fans get it)

The question really becomes what are the standard missile guidance systems on a given UEEF platform, as we know there are a variety of options for sensor guidance packages (radar, Infra-red, Laser, TV, etc) in reality. In this case we have to figure out what the Alpha (or another) is using normally and change it accordingly (assuming the UEEF has something for that class missile and the Alpha can support it).

[Zer0 Kay]

so basically, you can't count on any modifiers from the weapon, vehicle systems, or MECT when figting a cloaked enemy. i would presume that WP's would still count since that's more of the "the pilot is doing the math in his head" stuff, which could help offset the reduced accuracy of the computer aiming.

honestly, the biggest question i have regarding shadow cloaks are:
can the cloaked unit use its own radar for targeting? (and if so, could the mechanism by which that is allowed be usable as an exploit to allow enemies to penetrate the cloak?)
How do cloaked units communicate? (same follow up question as above)

they may use radar but I expect it would mostly be "passive" radar not active
I believe they would rely fairly heavily on ladar, and laser communications which are essentially point to point systems. but that works better on friendly units, and targeting non stealth units.

They have to use active if they want to get a jump on a target. All our stealth aircraft have active radar. ALL of our aircraft can turn it off. Passive would only tell you direction it wouldn't give range or speed. Range is figured by the time of return and speed figured by the difference of two returns either in azimuth or range. The way to fix that is to have an AWACS or cats eye type unit feeding you data. Which makes them a prime, slow moving, usually unarmed, target.

Ladar would target stealth units just fine, they don't suck up light waves. But the ladar would be just as traceable as radar.