Alpha/Beta Backup Fusion Geneator Questions

[eliakon]

I dunno....
claiming that the same word has different meanings depending on who says it seems overly complicated and starts down a really slippery slope....
If the Masters and the Humans use different meanings for the word Impulse, are their words "Reflex Weapons" the same? Or "Protoculture" or really anything?

I might agree with you, if not for the following points:

• The meaning of various terms and statements in the relevant scene is already a contentious subject... better to err on the side of caution.
• The Robotech animated series is known to have a number of cases in all three sagas in which terms are used inconsistently and/or incorrectly, and Harmony Gold's staff have refuted the idea that the show is infallible. Examples include:
  - Dolza, Breetai, and Exedore referencing the Macross meaning of the term "Protoculture" in Ep11.
  - Frequent misidentification of mecha and equipment such as referring to a dropped gun pod as a "missile" in Ep10, referring to non-transforming aircraft as "veritechs", referring to a battloid mode as guardian (or vice versa) on the Logan, or identifying the Invid as single-celled lifeforms.
• Official print sources are similarly not consistent in their description of types of technology. For example, the Infopedia lists the "reflex cannon" as a heavy particle beam weapon on most ships, but one has it listed as an "electromagnetic fusion beam" instead.
• Depictions of technology between Robotech titles is not always consistent (e.g. the Shadow Fighter's stealth going from a design change in the engine to a cloaking device between the series and RTSC).
• In many sci-fi titles (and, indeed, the real world) the same general term can be used to refer to wildly different technologies that achieve the same result... examples include:
  - "Jet engine" covers a multitude of designs including turbojets, turbofans, turboprops, propjets, ramjets, scramjets, etc.
  - "Nuclear weapon" is used to refer to both fission and fusion warheads, as well as radiological weapons.
  - "Impulse engine" in Star Trek encompasses two different technologies (possibly more)... a subspace field-assisted fusion rocket, and a low-intensity warp drive effect powered by plasma from a fusion reactor. Similarly, Star Trek's "disruptors" and "phasers" cover a multitude of types of weapons including exotic particle beams, antiparticle beams, plasma, and even focused sonic weapons.
  - "Reaction weaponry" in Macross is one umbrella term for two (potentially three) families of warhead... ersatz-nukes that use extra-dimensional heavy quanta as a fusion trigger, pair-annihilation warheads, and dimension eaters (fold bombs).

Essentially, taken at face value there's no guarantee that the Masters' apparent near-lightspeed "impulse" is the same (or even similar to) what is assumed to be a low-powered emergency operating condition for the Alpha fighter.

Which means that now anything and everything is into a Clintonesque "That depends on what the definition of is is." Since we are basically saying that any word we don't like in any use or location we can just throw out as a mistake, mistranslation, error, multiple use or whatever.....

Like I said, an infinitely large can of worms.
Add in the nigh-religious zealotry of the scores if not hundreds of different individuals/groups in promulgating their own personal headcanons/fannons as the One True Canon and its basically a recipe for "well I don't agree, because I am choosing to define the words differently to match what I want"

[ShadowLogan]

Personally, I'd be somewhat hesitant to assume that the Masters and humanity are referring to the same technology when they say "impulse"... especially when the precise meaning of several of their remarks relating to their trip to the Sol system are rather hotly disputed.

I can sort of agree with this, but at the same time a variety of factors can contribute to it being a strong possibility that NG-"impulse" and TMS-"impulse" are related:
-are we viewing/hearing the Masters in TMS in translation (in which case terminology could be seen as translated) or native? There are suggestion/statements that Tirolians and Zentreadi at times are not speaking Earth languages (Zentreadi especially), though that is what viewers experience
-the two statements are made in two separate eras, with humans using in the NG-era and the Tirolians in the TMS-era, which would allow for the term to be adopted (and factors exist that allow for it)
--Tirolians refugees on Earth at the end of TRM, who could have been at minimum I think "debriefed" could introduce the term/technology
--given that EU 85ep RT universe have the UEEF/REF at Tirol BEFORE NG consistently (IINM), that is another possible vector for the term/technology to be reference to the same thing especially when we consider that currently the Bioroid (Masters Technology) was added to the UEEF arsenal after arriving at Tirol.
-humans did inherit their technology from the Masters for all practical purposes (Zor WAS the 1st RT Master), there might have been some text that was translated during the SDF-1 reconstruction (humans could intercept and decode transmissions in TRM, I would think that would have to include translation to)
-Zentreadi, who did not use the term itself, might also be a potential vector for the introduction of the term via translation. This one is arguably the most dicey.

There's one area of uncertainty that we have to account for if we're calculating thrust-to-weight ratios for the Legioss/Alpha... there isn't a clear statement as to how many of its engines are actually being used in level flight. It could be using anywhere from two of them to all six. So, if we operate on the assumption that each of the JG-97M main engines is twice as powerful as the ATF-401, the picture looks something like this:

I've observed, and mentioned, in the past that the Alpha can operate on either pair of rear facing engines or all four, though we have no way to determine if/when the VTOLs are in use easily (aside from maybe pure VTOL).

To put that into perspective, the VF-1A Valkyrie is rated at 3.471 dry and 2.486 normally... the VF-1S is rated at 3.773 dry and 2.703 normally, about a 19% difference loaded (vs. a 51% difference dry, because of all the hung weaponry the VF-1 has). The difference is bigger if the VF-1's three rocket sub-engines are involved, but they're normally not used like that so I've left them out.

Looking at the T/W numbers I've noticed that the Alpha's range is much narrower than the VF-1 at full load. Of course this is because the Alpha only carries ~1/3 of what a VF-1 can at maximum (assuming no add-on packs), and IINM a good 250kg of that is (useless at the moment) Cyclone related in terms of payload. We can't even really compare standard loads on the VF-1 since we don't know the mass of a MRM (it fluctuates between platforms when it is identified so it could be comparable or lighter) in the 2E RPG.

Something I noticed in the Infopedia writeup recently is that the leg and forearm engines are supposedly NOT the same ("This is made possible by two powerful main engines in the legs, powerful secondary engines in the forearms, and a dedicated VTOL thruster on the underside of the fuselage", I would think if the leg/arms are the same it would have been worded differently) so using the OSM numbers here might not be exactly valid IF that passage is still applicable (which would be true if based on the uRRG).

Incidentally I have found references for working out the Shaft Horsepower to Thrust figures in different ways, most yielded surprising results (nearly all produced 2 JG Total <= 1 ATF). However the "best" results came from 1HP=76.07kg*m/s... If we then assume the Alpha in hover has an effective velocity of 9.806m/s (overcome gravity) and it is pure JG engine delivering all the VTOL power then the engines (total) are generating ~28,548kg-t (H/I, the Z is ~31,806kg) and the two Beta's two Engines are ~31,651kg-t (going off GearsOnline). Off hand I don't have a VTOL climb rate for the Alpha or Beta handy in Fighter Mode, or I would have used that (if its slower than assumed thrust goes up and it can only go about 4meters faster before thrust shrinks such it becomes a potential problem). Using non-VTOL flight speed doesn't help as those are likely ATF engines in concert, and then end up yielding "weak" total numbers as mentioned before. Those thrust values on the Alpha are close to the uRRG coincidently enough (and way off for the Beta).

Math based on Power = Force * Velocity (as Force * distance / time can simplify down to Force * Velocity).

Assuming that it can produce a temporary increase of 33% net engine output, that gets you up to about 51,200kgf net thrust... that'll put the stock Alpha up to roughly 3.066 dry, and 2.786 loaded. I'm hesitant to apply the same estimation to the -Z variant, since I'm rather unwilling to believe the same backup system will magically produce 11% more power just by being installed on a different VF.

If we assume that it just produces 12,800kgf in additional output (33% of the Alpha's normal main thrust), that puts the VF/A-6Z into the territory of 1.860 on its main engines, 2.415 with two sub-engines, and 2.970 under a normal combat load for however long that generator can run alongside the engines safely (presumably not very long, if at all).

I'm ignoring the 33% speed for the Fusion/Impulse system as a reflection of the thrust levels and going with the VTOL requirement for thrust as the two performance values seem at odds with each other. I know we can explain it away, but that is the approach I took when crunching the numbers on my own. I also assumed that the minimum required VTOL thrust was the same on the Z as the H/I, which it would be (16700kg dry + CVR-3/Cyclone/Saddle Bags (bags I missed in earlier estimate) + Gunpod + 8 Mini Missiles +60 SRMs =18,100kg PLUS pilot and fuel which where not considered) since the mass involved doesn't change, though technically with the more powerful engines the Z should be able to VTOL more payload.

It is hard to say why the Shadow Model dropped the VTOL ability (engines seem to still exist, just lacks the ability apparently), but the resulting weight of the new gunpod (even after dropping 8 minis) is ~95kg more, which could indicate the Alpha doesn't have much room for weight growth in terms of VTOL (and we are talking about less than 1% growth even), so if the VTOL engine isn't needed because the standard weight is going up, replacing the engine with something more useful might happen.

[Seto Kaiba]

Which means that now anything and everything is into a Clintonesque "That depends on what the definition of is is." Since we are basically saying that any word we don't like in any use or location we can just throw out as a mistake, mistranslation, error, multiple use or whatever.....

Like I said, an infinitely large can of worms.

That's just one of the unfortunate realities of the Robotech franchise... the production of the animated series was done in such haste, by writers who weren't given time to plan ahead, that inconsistent dialog and misused terms were introduced with increasing frequency in the rewriting process as the dubbing process went on. They just didn't have the time to check each new script against the previous ones, against other works in progress, against the show itself, or against reference material to make sure those terms they'd used were being used correctly.

Unlike the originals, the Robotech series was meant to be little more than an elaborate toy commercial... its writers probably didn't think anyone would ever subject it to a serious examination.

It was an absolute mess before Harmony Gold stepped in and imposed some consistency on it via an official canon... acknowledging, in the process, that the show did contain numerous dialog errors and singling several out.

Add in the nigh-religious zealotry of the scores if not hundreds of different individuals/groups in promulgating their own personal headcanons/fannons as the One True Canon and its basically a recipe for "well I don't agree, because I am choosing to define the words differently to match what I want"

Welcome to exactly what I have to deal with every time I try to support Harmony Gold's official Robotech canon in a thread on these boards...

I can sort of agree with this, but at the same time a variety of factors can contribute to it being a strong possibility that NG-"impulse" and TMS-"impulse" are related:

All those possibilities aside, my suspicion is that it's a case of "the same name for two different technologies that do the same job" situation. I was simply throwing the possibility that it meant something different out there because we both know how often those few lines from the Robotech Masters are contested.

I've observed, and mentioned, in the past that the Alpha can operate on either pair of rear facing engines or all four, though we have no way to determine if/when the VTOLs are in use easily (aside from maybe pure VTOL).

As noted previously, OSM-ly the Legioss/Alpha ought to have all six engines (two main, four sub) in a "rear-facing" configuration in fighter-mode flight, though as you noted it appears that the RT spec dispenses with the sub-engines in the legs and makes those the VTOL engines (which raises a lot of other problems since they kept the basic performance numbers). In practice, we can probably assume the 6-engine figure is still ballpark accurate though, since the force of the two absent engines has probably just ended up redistributed into the now four-engine configuration, and that the VTOL engine is just powerful enough to get the fighter airborne with a full load. It's curious that they'd only mention ONE VTOL engine though, when there are two nozzles.

Looking at the T/W numbers I've noticed that the Alpha's range is much narrower than the VF-1 at full load. Of course this is because the Alpha only carries ~1/3 of what a VF-1 can at maximum (assuming no add-on packs), and IINM a good 250kg of that is (useless at the moment) Cyclone related in terms of payload. We can't even really compare standard loads on the VF-1 since we don't know the mass of a MRM (it fluctuates between platforms when it is identified so it could be comparable or lighter) in the 2E RPG.

The safest approach to the VF-1, given Harmony Gold's known tendencies, would be to use the OSM number... which puts a standard T/O mass for the VF-1 at 18,500kg, roughly 3,050kg of which is armament (12 AMM-1A's at 125kg each, 1 GU-11A at 1,550kg).

Incidentally I have found references for working out the Shaft Horsepower to Thrust figures in different ways, most yielded surprising results (nearly all produced 2 JG Total <= 1 ATF). However the "best" results came from 1HP=76.07kg*m/s...

I have a suspicion what you found may be a formula for propeller systems... we really have a "can't get there from here" situation with the main engines, because you need the turbine efficiency as well to calculate thrust.

It is hard to say why the Shadow Model dropped the VTOL ability (engines seem to still exist, just lacks the ability apparently), but the resulting weight of the new gunpod (even after dropping 8 minis) is ~95kg more, which could indicate the Alpha doesn't have much room for weight growth in terms of VTOL (and we are talking about less than 1% growth even), so if the VTOL engine isn't needed because the standard weight is going up, replacing the engine with something more useful might happen.

I'm not sure the VTOL engine still exists... the official spec. says that the VTOL engine was out-and-out removed on the Shadow fighters... as the nozzles were on the original Dark Legioss, though no reason was ever given for that particular design choice. An odd one, to be sure, since that basically eliminated half the utility of Armo-Diver mode.

[ShadowLogan]

All those possibilities aside, my suspicion is that it's a case of "the same name for two different technologies that do the same job" situation. I was simply throwing the possibility that it meant something different out there because we both know how often those few lines from the Robotech Masters are contested.

As I said, I sort of agree and disagree. It would be easier to say your POV is correct here if we had more details on the two systems AND/OR something in dialoge that indicated confusion (which doesn't really exist as context for both is propulsion related not to mention the timeline gap between them and possible "contamination" of terminology w/n that gap).

I have a suspicion what you found may be a formula for propeller systems... we really have a "can't get there from here" situation with the main engines, because you need the turbine efficiency as well to calculate thrust.

Yes and No. I tried several different approaches
-a few where based on formulas involving propeller systems (I went with an efficiency of 1, unrealistic I know to give it the best possible result, when encountered), but ended up with the values mentioned.
-I also used reported the shaft horsepower and the thrust it generated from the F-35B's engine in proportional setup. Results where actually worse than the previous attempts.

What I settled on was using the actual Horsepower unit conversion to the metric unit of kg*m/s, from here it was only a matter of doing the proper substitutions in basic formulas for Work (=Force * distance), Power (=Work/time), Velocity (=distance/time) to arrive at Power = Force * Velocity and rearrange the formula to get the proper units. We know what the (shaft) horsepower is, the only thing we have to do is assume the velocity (which in hover could be said to be 9.8m/s). I haven't gotten around to looking for footage to estimate the VTOL rate. I tried to use the airspeed, but that has the problem that it likely assumes the ATF engines are in use and would have to be factored out (this approach also resulted in pretty low thrust values even before factoring in the ATFs which is why I went with the F-mode hover).

I'm not sure the VTOL engine still exists... the official spec. says that the VTOL engine was out-and-out removed on the Shadow fighters... as the nozzles were on the original Dark Legioss, though no reason was ever given for that particular design choice. An odd one, to be sure, since that basically eliminated half the utility of Armo-Diver mode.

As we both observed earlier the Infopedia assumes 1 VTOL engine, when material points toward 1 or 2 more (see cutaway of the Alpha Battloid). So it is possible that complete package is gone, but elements remain (remember the Guardian mode drive emissions in TSC, and the groin thruster's changing mode position that can be seen on the -Z/H in 85ep) functional but not sufficient for VTOL on its own.

[Seto Kaiba]

As I said, I sort of agree and disagree. It would be easier to say your POV is correct here if we had more details on the two systems AND/OR something in dialoge that indicated confusion (which doesn't really exist as context for both is propulsion related not to mention the timeline gap between them and possible "contamination" of terminology w/n that gap). [...]

The "contamination" of terminology theory may not necessarily work in this instance, since the Alpha fighter is canonically a twenty-plus year old platform that predates the launch of the Pioneer Mission.

Yes and No. I tried several different approaches
-a few where based on formulas involving propeller systems (I went with an efficiency of 1, unrealistic I know to give it the best possible result, when encountered), but ended up with the values mentioned.
-I also used reported the shaft horsepower and the thrust it generated from the F-35B's engine in proportional setup. Results where actually worse than the previous attempts.

Yeah, the physics of turbines are a headache at the best of times... I don't even try to do the math myself, I poke a friend of mine who works for Dassault Aviation. The problem with listing the engine in terms of shaft horsepower is that we're dealing with data that doesn't directly relate to thrust production. Ordinarily you'd only expect to see something like that listed in connection with a generator, helicopter engine, hovercraft engine, tank engine, or turboprop, where shaft horsepower and exhaust stream thrust are tangentially related at best in a free-turbine turboshaft arrangement.

If you work backwards from the list of knowns, you immediately run into problems... if you run the conversion based on a normal turbojet or turbofan formula you end up with an impossible conundrum. The given horsepower figure can't be for the thrust stage, since even in a best-case scenario you end up with the equation telling you that the aircraft can either produce that horsepower at normal thrust but speeds too slow to fly (~53kph) or at speed the craft must be weigh roughly as much as a gnat's fart. It has to mean the horsepower at the free turbine stage where the engine connects to the generator, otherwise the math just doesn't work. Working from the listed top speed and presumed thrust figures, the engine would have to be producing over two hundred times its listed horsepower. (216.52 times, to be exact.)

As we both observed earlier the Infopedia assumes 1 VTOL engine, when material points toward 1 or 2 more (see cutaway of the Alpha Battloid). So it is possible that complete package is gone, but elements remain (remember the Guardian mode drive emissions in TSC, and the groin thruster's changing mode position that can be seen on the -Z/H in 85ep) functional but not sufficient for VTOL on its own.

All things considered, the scene in question in Shadow Chronicles is likely an oversight... one of MANY in that scene.

As to whether the VTOL nozzle in the aft section could lift the fighter on its own, it would probably be an issue of airframe balance at least as much as thrust.

[ShadowLogan]

The "contamination" of terminology theory may not necessarily work in this instance, since the Alpha fighter is canonically a twenty-plus year old platform that predates the launch of the Pioneer Mission.

Canonically though the Alpha has also received updates/changes and such over that time period as implied with the Cyclone (what the "space" was before given Cyclones are newer), the -Z's and Shadow's features we are told are a recent developments (late and later war respectively). Given these changes over the course of the design, it is possible that the Impulse could be a new system or an old system, we just don't know canonically. But even then times change and so can language (people don't say atomic weapons much any more, its nuclear for ex).

As to whether the VTOL nozzle in the aft section could lift the fighter on its own, it would probably be an issue of airframe balance at least as much as thrust.

On the pre-Shadow models on the Alpha that engine in Guardian Mode essentially operates as the VF-1's 3-dorsal thruster pack in that mode, and in fact IINM it swivels much like the F-35B's engine nozzle does when it goes to VTOL (works in concert w/the lift fan). So it is accurate to say the engine was removed, but it would be clearly more accurate to say it was replaced with a different engine, one that does not feature a swivelling nozzle by all indications in the footage (do we even see Shadow Fighter Guardian mode from the rear in 85ep?).

...If you work backwards from the list of knowns, you immediately run into problems... if you run the conversion based on a normal turbojet or turbofan formula you end up with an impossible conundrum...

I'll take your word for it. Ultimately this is one of the reasons I went with the basic formulas over further research, the results did not leave one scratching their head, but I do think it is worth noting that such approaches where also done. The basic formula approach with unit conversion might be over simplification of the situation, but the results at least make sense in the scenario unlike other.

I just finished a quick look at plugging in the fusion backup as a fusion rocket to use as an alternative... looking at the results probably don't want to go there as the result is completely at odds with HG's official view (not that they appear to follow it given TSC) on Alpha's "space legs" using maximum thrust (minimum suitable for VTOL) for the RPG's stated endurance and then you have to find a place for the extra propellant in space (at least in atmosphere). Even going with the 1/3 speed = 1/3 thrust doesn't help, the 2 hour operation time really helps to inflate the available Delta-V since it gives that much more propellant to work with (much like the "days of" it would for the PC system) in space since the mecha has to bring it with it and can't draw on the environment (unless they have something akin to the Bussard Ramjet concept in play).

Incidentally (since I had set up a spreadsheet for rocket equations), if we go with your 300kg for propellant earlier for a 14day endurance burn time (that the RPG states is possible) at max ATF engine thrust, you end up with an effective exhaust velocity of 2.5x the speed of light (for a Specific Impulse of 77,414,400seconds) and a Delta-V of ~13,500kps in space. Which doesn't work since you couldn't expel the hydrogen by-product that fast.

Really the RPG should put a smaller limit on the burn time in space that is independent of the energy source as 14days or even just 2 hours doesn't work (and I don't limit this assessment to just the Alpha).

[Seto Kaiba]

Canonically though the Alpha has also received updates/changes and such over that time period as implied with the Cyclone (what the "space" was before given Cyclones are newer), the -Z's and Shadow's features we are told are a recent developments (late and later war respectively).

That's not entirely accurate... the RPG says that the Alpha received updates/upgrades throughout its service life, but no such claim is made in canon sources. The official canon material suggests that the -H and -I variants have been in UEEF service since before they even left Earth, and that the -Z variant was introduced sometime around the 1st ERF mission in 2038, and the -X in 2043 in the wake of Edwards' betrayal. There's no guarantee (in the RPG) that the backup fusion plant would be one of the upgrades, since the UEEF book doesn't mention Alphas not having it in the 2020's and so on... and if we're operating under the assumption that it was made a part of the Alpha because protoculture cells were an immature technology, it would make sense for it to be there from the earliest models.

On the pre-Shadow models on the Alpha that engine in Guardian Mode essentially operates as the VF-1's 3-dorsal thruster pack in that mode, and in fact IINM it swivels much like the F-35B's engine nozzle does when it goes to VTOL (works in concert w/the lift fan). So it is accurate to say the engine was removed, but it would be clearly more accurate to say it was replaced with a different engine, one that does not feature a swivelling nozzle by all indications in the footage (do we even see Shadow Fighter Guardian mode from the rear in 85ep?).

But the official info doesn't mention a new engine replacing the VTOL system that was removed... and the line art, even the art used for the official Shadow Chronicles art book, does not show any kind of engine system there or mention the installation of same.

The explanation with the fewest assumptions is that the Shadow Chronicles footage is off-model... that scene has a number of other problems anyway.

I just finished a quick look at plugging in the fusion backup as a fusion rocket to use as an alternative... looking at the results probably don't want to go there as the result is completely at odds with HG's official view (not that they appear to follow it given TSC)

I wouldn't take that scene in Shadow Chronicles seriously... the film consistently depicts the moon as being much closer to the Earth than it actually is. Judging from the relative sizes, the moon in Shadow Chronicles is only a couple thousand kilometers from Earth instead of the ~1 light second that it is in the real world. Simply one of many artistic oversights in a film done on a tiny budget by an inexperienced crew.

Incidentally (since I had set up a spreadsheet for rocket equations), if we go with your 300kg for propellant earlier for a 14day endurance burn time (that the RPG states is possible) at max ATF engine thrust, you end up with an effective exhaust velocity of 2.5x the speed of light (for a Specific Impulse of 77,414,400seconds) and a Delta-V of ~13,500kps in space. Which doesn't work since you couldn't expel the hydrogen by-product that fast.

Well, yeah... the Palladium RPG doesn't have a mechanic for propellant budgeting in space flight, so you're trying to apply a fuel cell-only atmospheric operating time to space flight. Apples and oranges, my good fellow.

Really the RPG should put a smaller limit on the burn time in space that is independent of the energy source as 14days or even just 2 hours doesn't work (and I don't limit this assessment to just the Alpha).

It would've been nice if they'd considered the space side of things, but really I suppose their not having done so is justifiable under the KISS philosophy.

[ShadowLogan]

That's not entirely accurate... the RPG says that the Alpha received updates/upgrades throughout its service life, but no such claim is made in canon sources. The official canon material suggests that the -H and -I variants have been in UEEF service since before they even left Earth, and that the -Z variant was introduced sometime around the 1st ERF mission in 2038, and the -X in 2043 in the wake of Edwards' betrayal. There's no guarantee (in the RPG) that the backup fusion plant would be one of the upgrades, since the UEEF book doesn't mention Alphas not having it in the 2020's and so on... and if we're operating under the assumption that it was made a part of the Alpha because protoculture cells were an immature technology, it would make sense for it to be there from the earliest models.

Yes there is plenty of evidence the Alpha DESIGN has received updates/upgrades to existing variants (like the H/I), but also in the form of new variants (Z/X) if you consider the Beta and its relation to the Alpha fighter and what is needed to make it work, even the Cyclone, and probably a few other factors. But that just detracts from the main issue here: when did the "impulse" term become adopted by humans to refer to the system in question.

The fact we have multiple vectors available that allow for it in canon easily enough I think shows the two term uses to be basically the same system type unless you have another example that would muddy the water.

But the official info doesn't mention a new engine replacing the VTOL system that was removed... and the line art, even the art used for the official Shadow Chronicles art book, does not show any kind of engine system there or mention the installation of same.

In Fighter and Battloid mode we can clearly see that the rotating nozzle of the VTOL engine from the H/I/Z is not present. That is not in dispute, but if the engine is replaced by something that doesn't rotate for guardian mode use (as it would on the H/I/Z) that would be consistent with the statement (they just aren't telling the entire story) and visuals. The main problem is that in the 85ep has NO/ZERO shadow unit(s) assume full guardian with a rear view shot, only a side profile in 1/2-G. So I don't see how we can say TSC is in error on this specific matter at this point.

The explanation with the fewest assumptions is that the Shadow Chronicles footage is off-model... that scene has a number of other problems anyway.

That the scene has issues I don't dispute, but you might just be trading one set of assumptions for another as you could end up with followup assumptions. The assumption that the VTOL engine was simply replaced by a non-F mode VTOL engine does not require additional assumptions in how the full guardian mode retains the horizontal flight or how it avoids a performance loss/limitations in guardian mode (X/S is equal to the H/I in this matter) that dropping it would require.

Well, yeah... the Palladium RPG doesn't have a mechanic for propellant budgeting in space flight, so you're trying to apply a fuel cell-only atmospheric operating time to space flight. Apples and oranges, my good fellow.

There is no indication that the official, if non-canon, operating time changes between atmospheric use and space use though, and we know the engines are capable of operating in either environment. In an atmosphere, yes the Alpha can draw in additional propellant from the external environment to lower the resulting exhaust velocity and not even touch any of that 300kg of fuel, but it can not do that in space. That is what makes your estimated fuel number incorrect since it would be more applicable in space than atmosphere.

It doesn't even work if we change official operating time to 10days, it doesn't start to be "realistic" until you cut it down to ~5.5days if you assume propellant is only 300kg. And even then at 5.5days you are talking a Specific Impulse (Isp) of over 30million seconds (Delta-V of over 5,000kps). At one day (24hrs) we are talking over 5million second Isp value. Keep in mind Nuclear Fusion is typically presented with a Specific Impulse around 100,000seconds (that results in ~45minutes yielding Delta-V of ~17kps at 300kg of propellant). We can of course change the operating propellant mass easily enough, but the end result will still stay the same in that we get "world breaking" results. The simplest fix is to disconnect the operating time for the fusion/PC systems from the endurance of the propulsion system.

It would've been nice if they'd considered the space side of things, but really I suppose their not having done so is justifiable under the KISS philosophy.

It would be nice if HG had included such information in the Infopedia or even Art of the Shadow Chronicles (or even a throwaway dialogue line). This isn't just a Palladium issue as I see it, since it goes back to HG.

Palladium in Mutants In Orbit (which covers Rifts AND After the Bomb settings) where comparable drives (Chemical, Ion, Plasma) to the RT ones are limited by range in terms of distance regardless of the available energy source (though in MiO they don't really seem to consider burn/coast mode of travel) operating times, which is just as KISS. There is being generous and there is being GENEROUS.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes there is plenty of evidence the Alpha DESIGN has received updates/upgrades to existing variants (like the H/I), but also in the form of new variants (Z/X) if you consider the Beta and its relation to the Alpha fighter and what is needed to make it work, even the Cyclone, and probably a few other factors.

That assertion doesn't match the evidence though... there's no mention of upgrades to the Alpha for compatibility with the Beta, just upgrades to the pre-production Beta when it reentered development. Likewise, there's no actual canon evidence as to when Cyclone tech was introduced (except that it's likely pre-2030), so it could very well be as old as the Alpha and something the Alpha was built specifically to support.

New variants, yes, but the technologies in them are never explicitly applied to existing Alpha fighters on a production scale...

The fact we have multiple vectors available that allow for it in canon easily enough I think shows the two term uses to be basically the same system type unless you have another example that would muddy the water.

The problem is that several of those vectors require assumptions unique to the RPG.

That is not in dispute, but if the engine is replaced by something that doesn't rotate for guardian mode use (as it would on the H/I/Z) that would be consistent with the statement (they just aren't telling the entire story) and visuals. The main problem is that in the 85ep has NO/ZERO shadow unit(s) assume full guardian with a rear view shot, only a side profile in 1/2-G. So I don't see how we can say TSC is in error on this specific matter at this point.

The stats clearly say the engine is GONE, not that they eliminated the variable nozzle... which makes it an obvious, and frustrating, contradiction.

There is no indication that the official, if non-canon, operating time changes between atmospheric use and space use though, and we know the engines are capable of operating in either environment. In an atmosphere, yes the Alpha can draw in additional propellant from the external environment to lower the resulting exhaust velocity and not even touch any of that 300kg of fuel, but it can not do that in space. That is what makes your estimated fuel number incorrect since it would be more applicable in space than atmosphere.

Your argument here is based on a false assumption that generator endurance is equivalent to propulsion system endurance... there's every reason to believe the endurance of the protoculture cells as an electrical source would be the same in space as it is in normal atmospheric operation, but that's almost completely independent of fuel for space flight. In atmosphere, the Alpha is using air from the atmosphere as a propellant in its engines... in space it has to depend on what it can carry internally. It'd be insane to assume a fighter would have the same endurance when its propellant is limited to internal stores as it would when it has effectively unlimited propellant from external sources. You've got a fallacy resulting from inductive generalization here.

It would be nice if HG had included such information in the Infopedia or even Art of the Shadow Chronicles (or even a throwaway dialogue line). This isn't just a Palladium issue as I see it, since it goes back to HG.

We can't really put this on Harmony Gold, because they were limited by the source material... the only one of the original shows to actually get into that level of detail was Super Dimension Fortress Macross. It wouldn't really have been something which the MOSPEADA creators considered either, since the series takes place almost exclusively on Earth and the transformable fighters were never intended to be the in-focus mechanical design. The Harmony Gold staff doesn't really have the scientific background to sort it out themselves either, and they wanted to preserve consistency with the source material which would only have upped their task's difficulty level.

[eliakon]

It would be nice if HG had included such information in the Infopedia or even Art of the Shadow Chronicles (or even a throwaway dialogue line). This isn't just a Palladium issue as I see it, since it goes back to HG.

We can't really put this on Harmony Gold, because they were limited by the source material... the only one of the original shows to actually get into that level of detail was Super Dimension Fortress Macross. It wouldn't really have been something which the MOSPEADA creators considered either, since the series takes place almost exclusively on Earth and the transformable fighters were never intended to be the in-focus mechanical design. The Harmony Gold staff doesn't really have the scientific background to sort it out themselves either, and they wanted to preserve consistency with the source material which would only have upped their task's difficulty level.

Super Dimensional Fortress Macross =/= Robotech Macross Saga
As I understand it The only OSM for Robotech is the animation. Personal desires aside the courts have rather clearly ruled on this and the IP holders have spoken pretty clearly about how their IPs follow the courts rulings.
All that SDFM stuff, is not part of Robotech (unless you have managed to get the IP holders to license it to HG recently. Have you?)

Which yes, does make the question of what HG has done or not done be on their shoulders....since you know...they are the ones who have to make all the material to put into Robotech and stuff...But the question of a 'scientific background' is rather amusing since the entire premise of the shows (BOTH shows) violates so many rules of physics and engineering as to be firmly in the Space Opera (bordering on space fantasy) end of the Sci-Fi spectrum.

[ShadowLogan]

That assertion doesn't match the evidence though... there's no mention of upgrades to the Alpha for compatibility with the Beta, just upgrades to the pre-production Beta when it reentered development. Likewise, there's no actual canon evidence as to when Cyclone tech was introduced (except that it's likely pre-2030), so it could very well be as old as the Alpha and something the Alpha was built specifically to support.

New variants, yes, but the technologies in them are never explicitly applied to existing Alpha fighters on a production scale...

Well canon in the 85ep establishes the VR-052 as the "new emergency vehicle", which can be seen in several ways beyond just the VR-052 being new, but it is also possible the inclusion of an "emergency vehicle" is also new to the Alpha. The last part is somewhat supported by canon as there is no evidence that the Cyclone was in the Alpha inventory until Scott pulled it out sense it wasn't used in Sentinels incarnations (non-RPG) AFAIK, nothing in L&W/Invasion Comics set during the period establish it, nor the LLA OVA for earlier models.

The ability for the Alpha to connect with the Beta is highly likely that it requires hardware on the Alpha end, not just the Beta end. That would have been true with the Beta-7, and any changes the Beta-9 made (we know they modernized the overall -7 to get to the -9, so the docking hardware could be included). There has to be a connection medium to allow the Alpha to control the Beta, otherwise the controlling pilot station would be in the Beta. Since the Beta-7 was cancelled there would have been no reason for the Alpha to continue using the hardware either as no "stop gap" solution is mentioned that might exploit the connection port.

The Alpha is also said "The Veritech Alpha Fighter is Earth's premier third-generation transformable fighter" (Infopedia), what happened to the 2nd generation? Since the VF-1 would be the 1st generation. The VF-X-4 is contemporary to the Alpha so would have to be 3rd gen or 2nd gen, but as the VF-1 is 1st gen and they are to replace it it makes sense they would both be 2nd gen. The AGAC comes out in 2029, but isn't lumped into a generation (and neither is the Logan) in the Infopedia (by 2E RPG the Alpha pre-dates both ASC VF programs, and UEEF and ASC VFs are ALL 2nd Gen designs per Masters SB when designed). That would indicate that the Alpha has received updates turning from a 2nd gen design into a 3rd gen design.

The problem is that several of those vectors require assumptions unique to the RPG.

Not really, all of those vectors are based on established events w/n canon or logical developments of canon events. The only assumption connected to the RPG is that the "Impulse" system is the fusion system, which could also be seen as a generic term for the reader's benifit and not necessarily the in-universe term (like Mini-Missile it has a defined term in Palladium RPG language, but RT in-universe would likely call it a short range missile as in the Infopedia/AotSC or [insert alpha-numeric designation and name for the] and not simply Short Range Plasma Warhead Missile by the RPG description).

The stats clearly say the engine is GONE, not that they eliminated the variable nozzle... which makes it an obvious, and frustrating, contradiction.

I'm not saying they just ditched the nozzle, I'm saying they changed engines completely to a new model/version one that doesn't have the variable nozzle feature. That would not result in a contradiction or anything, more of a "we were not clear". The VFA-6X/S has the same performance as the VF6-H/I in Guardian mode, it can only do that if it has an engine available in guardian mode as that is in the established/printed stats.

there's every reason to believe the endurance of the protoculture cells as an electrical source would be the same in space as it is in normal atmospheric operation, but that's almost completely independent of fuel for space flight.

I agree with this. However, the RPG makes the assertion that electrical power endurance = propulsion endurance, which is not the case but one that has to be considered since no one can officially state what (either) operational time is outside the RPG for RT mecha (it is not mentioned/considered in the Infopedia).

What I am saying is that 300kg does not work with the available official numbers.

We can't really put this on Harmony Gold, because they were limited by the source material...

Yes we can put some of this on HG. The "limited by source material" just doesn't fly IMHO (since they shouldn't be using the OSM for more than basic dimension stats). The uRRG did have an influence on the Infopedia entries (and Art of the Shadow Chronicles), and the uRRG has worked out (overly stingy IMHO) values for Delta-V they could have "approved" given their inability to do the work or hire someone to do the work for them.

[Seto Kaiba]

Super Dimensional Fortress Macross =/= Robotech Macross Saga

In the same sense that ice is not water, yes.

As I understand it The only OSM for Robotech is the animation. Personal desires aside the courts have rather clearly ruled on this and the IP holders have spoken pretty clearly about how their IPs follow the courts rulings.
All that SDFM stuff, is not part of Robotech (unless you have managed to get the IP holders to license it to HG recently. Have you?)

Your misunderstanding is noted, and I hope the following will remedy it... and I know I've explained these facts to you before, so I will keep it brief.

Point #1: The belief that the only part of the original Japanese shows applicable to Robotech is the animation is a false one... demonstrably so from an official standpoint since at least 2001, and far earlier if you want to count the RPG. Robotech also borrowed the technical specifications from the original shows (where available) to use as its own official tech specs for mecha and ships. The only saga that this isn't true for is the Masters Saga (adapted from Southern Cross), because almost no technical data was published for the 23 episode original series... so they didn't use any there because there simply wasn't anything to use, and had to rely instead upon an assortment of guesses. There are some obvious errors in the Robotech stats here and there, some of which appear to be the result of a hasty or imprecise translation of notes on the line art[sup]1[/sup] while others appear to be the translator's attempts at rationalizing off-model animation[sup]2[/sup] or simple transposition errors.[sup]3[/sup]

Surely you didn't think it was a coincidence that the tech specs are almost identical between the original shows and Robotech?


Point #2: Using the technical specs from the OSM line art would not be outside the scope of Harmony Gold's license even a little... the specs were material produced in the development of the show. At no point has any court ruling prohibited HG from using the technical specs in the animation production material for the shows they have the rights to distribute.

Which yes, does make the question of what HG has done or not done be on their shoulders....since you know...they are the ones who have to make all the material to put into Robotech and stuff...But the question of a 'scientific background' is rather amusing since the entire premise of the shows (BOTH shows) violates so many rules of physics and engineering as to be firmly in the Space Opera (bordering on space fantasy) end of the Sci-Fi spectrum.

... very little of the material in Robotech was made by Harmony Gold. About all they can really lay claim to are the handful of original characters in Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles, some name and dialog changes in the 85 episodes, and a couple original mechanical designs like the Silverback, SDF-3, Ark Angel, and Icarus.

Regardless of your contentions to the contrary, the creators of the original shows often went into much greater detail than what was ultimately used for the basis of Robotech's tech specs... much of it based on very real science.


1. The Beta's three rotary cannons being 80mm weapons... they apparently misread a rather sloppily written 3 for an 8.
2. The ship sizes in the New Generation, which conflict with the line art used in official publications... the actual ships, as designed, are much smaller.
3. This can't have been intentional....

[Seto Kaiba]

Well canon in the 85ep establishes the VR-052 as the "new emergency vehicle", which can be seen in several ways beyond just the VR-052 being new, but it is also possible the inclusion of an "emergency vehicle" is also new to the Alpha. [...]

Yet official canon sources clearly indicate that the VR-038 was in service in the 2030's (if not earlier) and that even craft like Conbats were equipped with Cyclones. There's no reason to suspect that this capability is new... it's certainly not described as new anywhere, even in the RPG. If the Cyclone was available in the 2030's, and the Alpha was available in the 2030's and its contemporaries had an ability to take the Cyclone, it makes sense that the Cyclone compartment is not new.

The Alpha is also said "The Veritech Alpha Fighter is Earth's premier third-generation transformable fighter" (Infopedia), what happened to the 2nd generation?

We both know this is an error resulting from the change in timeline that had initially assumed the Alpha was new when it appeared in the New Generation... there is no evidence to support the contention that the Alpha received any kind of upgrade, let alone one that would be sufficient to classify it as a new generation of fighter.

I'm not saying they just ditched the nozzle, I'm saying they changed engines completely to a new model/version one that doesn't have the variable nozzle feature. That would not result in a contradiction or anything, more of a "we were not clear".

It doesn't say the engine was switched for a new model, it says the engine was removed from the design entirely... gone is gone.

The VFA-6X/S has the same performance as the VF6-H/I in Guardian mode, it can only do that if it has an engine available in guardian mode as that is in the established/printed stats.

Actually the answer to this one is obvious to anyone particularly familiar with the OSM... the stats for all of them present the listed OSM speeds for the "arms folded" configuration, in which the Dark/Shadow version would indeed have engines capable of forward propulsion. (Curiously, this form is present in both Macross and MOSPEADA, but neither gives it a name.)

I agree with this. However, the RPG makes the assertion that electrical power endurance = propulsion endurance, which is not the case but one that has to be considered since no one can officially state what (either) operational time is outside the RPG for RT mecha (it is not mentioned/considered in the Infopedia).

The RPG doesn't address propulsion endurance at all, or equate it to power system endurance... it ONLY gives power system endurance. You're building an argument around a hasty generalization.

What I am saying is that 300kg does not work with the available official numbers.

It doesn't work with your specific, illogical set of assumptions... that's not the same thing.

We can't really put this on Harmony Gold, because they were limited by the source material...

Yes we can put some of this on HG. The "limited by source material" just doesn't fly IMHO (since they shouldn't be using the OSM for more than basic dimension stats). The uRRG did have an influence on the Infopedia entries (and Art of the Shadow Chronicles), and the uRRG has worked out (overly stingy IMHO) values for Delta-V they could have "approved" given their inability to do the work or hire someone to do the work for them.

That would be your opinion... clearly Harmony Gold's differs, and theirs is the one that (for better or worse) actually counts. They opted to use the spec in the source material because it conformed to the performance in the animation of the 85 episodes (for the simple reason that those stats were made by the original creators for those shows). They worked with what they had, and for the MOSPEADA side there simply wasn't that much detail. That's the bare, simple facts of the matter.

[ShadowLogan]

Yet official canon sources clearly indicate that the VR-038 was in service in the 2030's (if not earlier) and that even craft like Conbats were equipped with Cyclones. There's no reason to suspect that this capability is new... it's certainly not described as new anywhere, even in the RPG. If the Cyclone was available in the 2030's, and the Alpha was available in the 2030's and its contemporaries had an ability to take the Cyclone, it makes sense that the Cyclone compartment is not new.

Why? We don't know when the UEDF/UEEF decided to start putting "emergency vehicles" into the mecha. The ASC did not have that practice in 2029-30 by all indications, though as a separate organization they might have different requirements. We aren't shown an "emergency vehicle" as part of another mecha/vehicle by the UEEF until 2038 w/Lancer's 10th MD. That leaves room for the emergency vehicle compartment to be a post 2029-30 development.

We both know this is an error resulting from the change in timeline that had initially assumed the Alpha was new when it appeared in the New Generation... there is no evidence to support the contention that the Alpha received any kind of upgrade, let alone one that would be sufficient to classify it as a new generation of fighter.

The fact remains it is there. It was reprinted in AotSC even. If the only generations we have identified are 1st Gen and 3rd Gen, and the 3rd gen is part of the program to replace the 1st gen, then it is highly likely that the 3rd gen design started as a 2nd gen design but as a result of continued upgrades over 2 decades is considered a 3rd gen design now.

It doesn't say the engine was switched for a new model, it says the engine was removed from the design entirely... gone is gone.

Well what they actually say is the "The VTOL thruster under the fighter mode fuselage was also deleted, " but they do not say what the freed up space is being reused for so they could have put in a new engine that does not qualify as a VTOL thruster.

The RPG doesn't address propulsion endurance at all, or equate it to power system endurance... it ONLY gives power system endurance. You're building an argument around a hasty generalization.

Not quite. "Constant [/Heavy] activity and combat reduces the cell's fuel life by 'half'" (pg115/99 manga TSC main book). Activity can be read to include use of the propulsion system as the PC fuel block doesn't restrict itself. No allowances are made for space endurance in terms of activity either.

It doesn't work with your specific, illogical set of assumptions... that's not the same thing.

The easiest fix to get the Specific Impulse and Exhaust velocity to reasonable numbers is to increase the fuel capacity since the fuel mass is an arbitrary fan number. The fact remains 300kg is much to small to have realistic propulsion values in critical areas, and I'm leaving out Delta-V when I say that.

Delta-V does need a fix, but if using the PB World Model it can be ignored since they treat space speed as extension of atmospheric speed and to reach orbit you need to pull Mach 5 or better. It is unlikely HG even has concrete idea on what "short legs in space" means either for them.

[Seto Kaiba]

Why? We don't know when the UEDF/UEEF decided to start putting "emergency vehicles" into the mecha. The ASC did not have that practice in 2029-30 by all indications, though as a separate organization they might have different requirements. We aren't shown an "emergency vehicle" as part of another mecha/vehicle by the UEEF until 2038 w/Lancer's 10th MD. That leaves room for the emergency vehicle compartment to be a post 2029-30 development.

Possible, but IMO profoundly unlikely... the Cyclone compartment is NOT small, and the official writeup of the VR-038 establishes its service history spans the 2030's and possibly before. It would be stretching believability to the breaking point to contend that it's a coincidence that the Cyclone was developed around the same time as the Alpha fighter and the Alpha just happens to coincidentally have a cargo compartment that perfectly fits a folded Cyclone.

The ASC does its own thing for mecha, but that's a production foible... and as a low-priority defense force, they didn't have a basic expectation that they might be caught behind enemy lines if shot down. They're a planetary defense force, after all.

The fact remains it is there. It was reprinted in AotSC even. If the only generations we have identified are 1st Gen and 3rd Gen, and the 3rd gen is part of the program to replace the 1st gen, then it is highly likely that the 3rd gen design started as a 2nd gen design but as a result of continued upgrades over 2 decades is considered a 3rd gen design now.

Or it's possible that, since the VF-X-6 started after the YF-4, that the VF-X-4 and VF-X-5 are our missing second generation and the VF-X-6 is the 3rd. It would be odd in the extreme for a whole generation to go missing like that, but I've seen odder things justified in Robotech and there's no sign of Harmony Gold fixing this oversight anytime soon.

Well what they actually say is the "The VTOL thruster under the fighter mode fuselage was also deleted, " but they do not say what the freed up space is being reused for so they could have put in a new engine that does not qualify as a VTOL thruster.

Just throwin' this out there... but wouldn't the most straightforward answer to that hypothetical be that the freed up space and mass went to the shadow field system and passive sensors? The new technologies that we're told were added to the airframe...

The RPG doesn't address propulsion endurance at all, or equate it to power system endurance... it ONLY gives power system endurance. You're building an argument around a hasty generalization.

Not quite. "Constant [/Heavy] activity and combat reduces the cell's fuel life by 'half'" (pg115/99 manga TSC main book). Activity can be read to include use of the propulsion system as the PC fuel block doesn't restrict itself. No allowances are made for space endurance in terms of activity either.

That's still purely power system endurance though... it simply states that the mecha can expect a fixed quantity of fuel to last for X amount of time under normal operating schedule, and that a more active operation schedule will reduce the "calendar days" that X quantity of fuel will last even though it's being consumed at the same rate. It's like driving a car at the same speed for 1 hour a day vs. 2, you aren't consuming fuel twice as fast, you're simply driving for twice as much in a day.

The easiest fix to get the Specific Impulse and Exhaust velocity to reasonable numbers is to increase the fuel capacity since the fuel mass is an arbitrary fan number. The fact remains 300kg is much to small to have realistic propulsion values in critical areas, and I'm leaving out Delta-V when I say that.

But you're basing that on the assumption that the Alpha is a space fighter when it's not... its range is explicitly very limited, and the Shadow Chronicles depiction takes some rather dramatic license with the proximity of the moon and Earth.

Delta-V does need a fix, but if using the PB World Model it can be ignored since they treat space speed as extension of atmospheric speed and to reach orbit you need to pull Mach 5 or better. It is unlikely HG even has concrete idea on what "short legs in space" means either for them.

That's your typical dramatic space flight... like in Star Wars or Macross or any other soft sci-fi title. It's more cinematic that way and people have an easier time visualizing it.

You're probably right that neither Palladium nor HG have any concrete idea what "short legs in space" means in terms of distance... but that's arguably going back to the whole "it wasn't a bloody space fighter to begin with" thing.

[ShadowLogan]

Possible, but IMO profoundly unlikely... the Cyclone compartment is NOT small, and the official writeup of the VR-038 establishes its service history spans the 2030's and possibly before. It would be stretching believability to the breaking point to contend that it's a coincidence that the Cyclone was developed around the same time as the Alpha fighter and the Alpha just happens to coincidentally have a cargo compartment that perfectly fits a folded Cyclone.

I disagree the compartment is small compared to other features (cockpit, shoulder sensor, higher order engines, collective volume for the MM-60, etc). The space was probably there from the beginning, but it doesn't necessarily mean it was used for cargo capacity. The Shadow Fighter deleted the shoulder sensor pod, which IINM is bigger than a Cyclone bay, so the design at some point has had deletions and alterations in the future, no reason that it can't have them in the past.

And as I've mentioned in the past, the volume from the Cyclone itself could go along way toward fixing the Alpha's space range and the need for the Beta.

Or it's possible that, since the VF-X-6 started after the YF-4, that the VF-X-4 and VF-X-5 are our missing second generation and the VF-X-6 is the 3rd. It would be odd in the extreme for a whole generation to go missing like that, but I've seen odder things justified in Robotech and there's no sign of Harmony Gold fixing this oversight anytime soon.

The VF-X-5 is a separate program, one by all indications was to compete with the Beta-7 (2E RPG, don't think its addressed anywhere else). Given the YF-4 and VF-X-6 are contemporaries and possibly competitors, and the -4 was passed over for the -6, I think it is clear they are part of the same generation. The only other way to justify the 2nd gen, is that they are the undisclosed VF-2 &/or VF-3 in the sequence. It seems more likely that the UEEF 2nd Gen designs evolved into the 3rd Gen designs with the available information.

It also doesn't help that HG (or PB) has yet to define what constitutes a VF belonging to a particular generation.

Just throwin' this out there... but wouldn't the most straightforward answer to that hypothetical be that the freed up space and mass went to the shadow field system and passive sensors? The new technologies that we're told were added to the airframe...

But per the dialog the Shadow System is integrated into the engine/generator from Ep83 Sue "... you can see from this graphic representation that the protoculture generator has been designed with a fourth-dimensional configuration ...." That would seem to rule out anything to do with the Shadow system.

Passive sensors seem to be centralized w/the head area and that already has deleted the MM-12 system to make way. So I don't think it was for passive sensors given the placement. It might be related in moving hardware around, but given TSC seems to favor an engine being there for G-mode, I am more inclined to go with the non-VTOL thruster engine until TSC is atleast decanonized.

That's still purely power system endurance though... it simply states that the mecha can expect a fixed quantity of fuel to last for X amount of time under normal operating schedule, and that a more active operation schedule will reduce the "calendar days" that X quantity of fuel will last even though it's being consumed at the same rate. It's like driving a car at the same speed for 1 hour a day vs. 2, you aren't consuming fuel twice as fast, you're simply driving for twice as much in a day.

Have to disagree here, activity would logically include flight operations since they make no effort to disconnect the two or otherwise alter the dynamic for spaceflight operation.

But you're basing that on the assumption that the Alpha is a space fighter when it's not... its range is explicitly very limited, and the Shadow Chronicles depiction takes some rather dramatic license with the proximity of the moon and Earth.

No I'm assuming that the Alpha is capable of operating in space, which it clearly can based on the animation and various canon (and former canon) references. I don't even need to consider TSC either:
-Sentinels OVA (IIRC Alpha's where part of the wedding ceremony, though Sterling and Penn did operate w/o the two Betas after the switch-link went sour)
-RT#61 has the Alpha (solo and linked w/Beta) deployed to operate in space to defend the 21st MD
-NG#83 shows holo recordings of the Shadow Fighter flying solo in space, specifically around the Moon
-NG#84/5 has the Shadow Fighter flying solo (and linked) to engage approaching enemies
-Prelude even has instances of the Alpha Fighter family operating solo (and linked) operating in space

The Alpha even qualifies as a space fighter given its depictions in Ep61/85 and Prelude.

That's your typical dramatic space flight... like in Star Wars or Macross or any other soft sci-fi title. It's more cinematic that way and people have an easier time visualizing it.

By giving the Alpha (or others) high energy systems (like fusion or PC) it results in huge potential Delta-V budgets to the point you likely aren't going to need worry about it for cinematics. It does have the consequence of not being able to claim certain performance limits (like limit their ability to launch into orbit from Earth) as it doesn't take much "propellant" (fuel) to get decent results w/o resorting to incompetent (if not criminal or just insane) fuel allocation in the design process.

I will point out that if you can couple high thrust (which the Alpha in space is shown to have on its own) with an Specific Impulse of 1,200seconds (let alone the better values that are implied to be applicable) that would be enough to enable fighter operations in space (Aviation Week & Space Technology March 21st 1988 pg19-20), that is basically quoting USAF Astronautic Laboratory chief (in relation to thrust and Isp). So the Alpha (and other VFs) should have no trouble at all being able to perform fighter operations in space from a propulsion standpoint for cinematic effect.