Can Nightbane bred?

[Grimaold]

Can Nightbane bred? So there are 'large' groups of Nightbane, made up mostly of people in their late teens and early twenties, fighting an epic shadow war of resistance. They are saving each other from death on a regular basis, their emotions run high. So, I want to know has any of the books covered the topic of a child being born to a Nightbane mother(or a 'Bane fathering a child)? In other words babybanes.

[auyl]

The quick answer is yes, early books say that all Nightbane started as orphans that didn't know who their parents were. The Survival Guide talks about Nightbane parents keeping their children but I would argue this is extremely rare.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There before the NBSG there were many opinions on if NB could breed. Yes...No, depends on the person's opinion about what exactly NB are. Wraith of the formless ones, a race in and of itself, or otherwise.

Wraiths are spirits of the dead so those with this opinion had that NB couldn't breed at all.
If the person was of the opinion that they were a race, then Yes, they could breed, but only with NB of the other gender.

Now days NB are humans with a few mystic genes mixed in so yes they can breed with each other and humans.

Side-note: Wraith of the formless ones was the view point that the writer wrote the book from. This came up in conversations with the author just after the NB main book was published.

[auyl]

Carella's views on the Nightbane were never published to make them canon however, while NBSG was.

Unfortunately the Reincarnated spirits of the Formless Ones viewpoint, died with never putting it in the corebook. I'll admit it would have been my favourite viewpoint if they fleshed it out that the Nightbane where formed in some way apart from being "born" but that wasn't the way Palladium decided to go.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Carella's views on the Nightbane were never published to make them canon however, while NBSG was.

...snip

Which is why I said what I said the way I did.

Not that I like the NBSG's explanation, along with other things along the way. In this case I am glad I was an early adopter and got the NS book right off the bat.

[Glistam]

I've always held it as my head cannon that Nightbane could breed, but only with each other. The reason people don't believe it's possible is because in order to carry a baby to term the mother must forgo transforming for the entire duration of the pregnancy, or else she aborts the pregnancy.

[Razorwing]

Why would she abort the pregnancy just because she changes between Façade and Morphus? It is a magical transformation that really doesn't abide by known physics or biology. Many Nightbane see their clothes apparently torn to shreds or even gone all together... yet reappear when they return to their human forms. There are as many ways to transform from Façade to Morphus as their are Nightbane... some seem to shift as if their body was undergoing a metamorphosis or mutation... while others simply become without any noticeable stages between. Some even have more exotic or dramatic transformations along the lines of many anime magical transformations or even Power Ranger types. If a person's clothing can survive or adapt to a new form... then something actually inside a Nightbane should also be able to survive without any real harm to it.

It always annoys me when people try to apply science and logic to what is essentially a magical/supernatural being... creatures whose very nature defies science and logic.

[Grimaold]

Thanks everyone,
Now the tough question what is the baby of Nightbane parents?
If both are 'Bane, if only dad is, or if only mom?
Also in cannon what year is it in Nightbane?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Thanks everyone,
Now the tough question what is the baby of Nightbane parents?
If both are 'Bane, if only dad is, or if only mom?
Also in cannon what year is it in Nightbane?

Q's 1&2: unknowable till they have their becoming.

[eliakon]

Why would she abort the pregnancy just because she changes between Façade and Morphus? It is a magical transformation that really doesn't abide by known physics or biology. Many Nightbane see their clothes apparently torn to shreds or even gone all together... yet reappear when they return to their human forms. There are as many ways to transform from Façade to Morphus as their are Nightbane... some seem to shift as if their body was undergoing a metamorphosis or mutation... while others simply become without any noticeable stages between. Some even have more exotic or dramatic transformations along the lines of many anime magical transformations or even Power Ranger types. If a person's clothing can survive or adapt to a new form... then something actually inside a Nightbane should also be able to survive without any real harm to it.

It always annoys me when people try to apply science and logic to what is essentially a magical/supernatural being... creatures whose very nature defies science and logic.

Why not?
I think the idea was that it helps keep up the 'Nightbane pregnancies are rare' thing and not some sort of attempt to inject science and logic into the game.
If you want plausible reasons there are tons. Of the top of my head:
-It could be that the switch causes a spike in the immune system causing a miscarriage.

-It could be that the hormones, placental membrane what ever don't convert over to morpheus and that you have to stay in façade for 9 months to properly keep the baby alive

-It could be that the transformation is deeply personal and that just as you can not transform with a person in your pocket and stash them dimensionally that you can not transform with a person inside you....thus that the transformation will not include the fetus in anyway....which will be fatal to the baby if it is not old enough to survive on its own.

[Glistam]

Why would she abort the pregnancy just because she changes between Façade and Morphus?

Because Nightbane is a horror game, and I think that's pretty horrific.

[Nightmask]

Why would she abort the pregnancy just because she changes between Façade and Morphus? It is a magical transformation that really doesn't abide by known physics or biology. Many Nightbane see their clothes apparently torn to shreds or even gone all together... yet reappear when they return to their human forms. There are as many ways to transform from Façade to Morphus as their are Nightbane... some seem to shift as if their body was undergoing a metamorphosis or mutation... while others simply become without any noticeable stages between. Some even have more exotic or dramatic transformations along the lines of many anime magical transformations or even Power Ranger types. If a person's clothing can survive or adapt to a new form... then something actually inside a Nightbane should also be able to survive without any real harm to it.

It always annoys me when people try to apply science and logic to what is essentially a magical/supernatural being... creatures whose very nature defies science and logic.

No, they still follow logic, their own internal logic. Just because they're a magical/supernatural being doesn't mean that *poof* they're suddenly immune to either logic or having anything rational apply to them. Science and logic say you hit something hard enough you'll likely damage it, so then should supernatural creatures be immune to damage because 'well they're magical/supernatural beings they aren't supposed to respond to anything logically or scientifically'?

Their flesh is warping and shifting about and even changing properties in many cases, prime reasons for causing a spontaneous abortion or otherwise prevent pregnancy. Just check out the Kitty Norvelle novels, the protagonist learns the heartbreaking news in one novel that now that she's a werewolf the monthly forced transformation caused her to spontaneously abort and as such no female lycanthrope can carry a fetus to term.

[glitterboy2098]

the fact that damage is tracked separately between facade and morphus with no carry over during transformation suggests that the two bodies are not physically the same flesh. you can pummel a morphus to within an inch of death, but the moment they shift back to facade they're in perfect health. and vice versa.

[eliakon]

the fact that damage is tracked separately between facade and morphus with no carry over during transformation suggests that the two bodies are not physically the same flesh. you can pummel a morphus to within an inch of death, but the moment they shift back to facade they're in perfect health. and vice versa.

Which still doesn't prevent spontaneous abortions.
What it does suggest is that assuming that you could transform while pregnant that the baby would be in 'limbo' with your body until you switch back. (I am not sure which is more horrifying. The idea that you can drag another living thing along with your body during transformation....or the thought that if you killed a 'bane whose façade was pregnant in their morpheus that the baby would be trapped there in that limbo forever.)

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Flour, water, salt, sugar, yeast, and eggs. anyone can Bread

[drewkitty ~..~]

This discussion is pure speculation at this point.

While shifting forms could cause a miscarriage, a lot of things can cause one also. While I prefer the notion that no changing between their two selves doesn't, there is a multitude of variables that making saying "yes it does' or 'no it doesn't' as a blanket answer impossible. The only frim answer that can be given is 'Maybe'.

Now, if the baby lives past implantation then it has a good chance of surviving the mother's becoming unless the mother is a non-corpale in her Morphus. Then everything is up in the air.

[Shark_Force]

Flour, water, salt, sugar, yeast, and eggs. anyone can Bread

i dunno, i've met people who were in awe of my ability to cook because i could make grilled cheese. i'm sure there are plenty of people who would fail epically if they tried to make bread

[eliakon]

This discussion is pure speculation at this point.

Since we are discussion the plausibility and ramifications of Glistam's personal headcanon suggestion of an idea......
Yeah it would rather be that wouldn't it?

While shifting forms could cause a miscarriage, a lot of things can cause one also. While I prefer the notion that no changing between their two selves doesn't, there is a multitude of variables that making saying "yes it does' or 'no it doesn't' as a blanket answer impossible. The only frim answer that can be given is 'Maybe'.

Sort of, see above.
But the main issue that has come up is 'based on the conversation being held here what could happen' which has turned into a bit of 'well here is what we do know from the books' combined with 'and lets leave out the givens like 'miscarriages occur for other reasons' since that's really not relevant to the discussion.
Thus it is possible to get a bit of a firmer answer than 'maybe ask your GM' if we are willing to look at what has been written in the books and then see what that is, and what that would do when applied to a pregnancy.

Now, if the baby lives past implantation then it has a good chance of surviving the mother's becoming unless the mother is a non-corpale in her Morphus. Then everything is up in the air.

That is where I disagree. Personally from everything in the books I don't see how it could survive the mother changing at all....
....but that is because I don't think it is possible to carry living things in to 'limbo' when you change, and since the womb it is in has to go to limbo.....
Either it goes with the womb (and thus we have created an exception to the idea that Nightbane transformations only affect themselves)
Or it stays.....which would be fatal.
Maybe if there was some exotic Talent involved (Shadow Womb?) which would of course make the ability to breed even more legendary as the operations and implementation of Talents is not understood in universe...

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yes, that was my fist post in the speculative portion of this topic. Thus, I pointed that out so people would know that that post of mine was Speculation. And thus saying that what I said was my opinion, and that everyone else's comments were their opinions. So everyone would take everyones speculation as their opinions.

Speculation is speculation, Your speculation my speculation, it all carries the same weight.

The mentioning of other reasons for miscarrying would be that for there to be a miscarriage for changing might be "in combination' with other factors, not just one thing.

There is that underneath the surface the NB's morphus is still a living body.

Why did I pick implantation? Because soon after that (or then) the mother's immune system stops thinking the baby is a foreign body. And then ignores the developing baby.

And I am not going to argue with you over this, since both sides are speculation.

[Axelmania]

May depend on how foreign the being is considered.

I can't remember much about bionics or cybernetics, like if they can get them, if they expel them in Morphus or Facade.

Would a baby be on about the level of a bio-system in terms of being tied in to the body and designed to work with it but still different?

[eliakon]

May depend on how foreign the being is considered.

I can't remember much about bionics or cybernetics, like if they can get them, if they expel them in Morphus or Facade.

Would a baby be on about the level of a bio-system in terms of being tied in to the body and designed to work with it but still different?

Until something is published in canon? That is pretty much the definition of "GMs call"

It really depends on how the GM wants to run things. Heck it first requires the GM to make a ruling that female Nightbane have viable eggs to start with.

[Axelmania]

Also if you use "swarm" could each of the mini animals you turn into get independently pregnant?

[eliakon]

Rifter 48 has an official Q&A that asks the question.
The answer is that it is unknown because no Nightbane is ever known to have become pregnant/sired children. It could be possible, and may have even happened but as far as is known it has not ever occurred.

Which doesn't really help much I know but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Axelmania]

Nice to know it isn't officially ruled out

[Razorwing]

One of the things that makes me question whether or not shape shifting will cause a miscarriage was the various Were-Beasts. These beings are natural shape changers who, while supernatural in origin, are still mortal (they may live centuries, but they are born, grow old and eventually die by means other than violence). If they, as a viable race have no problem with shape changing and pregnancy (at least there is nothing printed stating that there shape changing cause problems with these creatures), then why would other shape shifters.

The point I am trying to make is that when magic is involved, one can not assume that the normal rules of science apply. Shape Shifting through non-magical means maintains things like general size and mass... what one changes into will be roughly the same size and mass as the original form (you can be taller but skinnier or shorter and fatter, but over all the same). Magic doesn't always abide by that rule. For example, a 100 ft, 10 ton dragon can shape shift into a form as small as a cat with the mass one expects for a cat of that size (a few pounds depending on over all size)... yet this transformed dragon still retains its supernatural level of strength, all of its SDC/HP and such... even with much less mass as a cat. Nightbane are similar in that their Morphus forms can be radically different from their Façade... much bigger or much smaller... and even their talents (such as Swarm Self) can further change things. To assume that something like pregnancy will be a hindrance to such magical transformations that literally fly in the face of both physics and biology seems like someone is trying to enforce rules on something that breaks the rules by definition.

The simple fact is this... no one knows if Nightbane can become pregnant. No one knows what (if anything) would happen if one were to become pregnant. Sure you could try to impose biological rules, but the Nightbane don't exactly follow normal biological rules, so it seems a moot point.

Yes, Nightbane is at its core a horror game... and loosing an unborn child is quite horrific... but is that the sort of story you want to tell... where any transformation by a pregnant Nightbane will result in an automatic miscarriage? Or would you rather dwell on the supernatural horror aspects of fighting a hidden war against demonic invaders and let characters have moments of joy such as bringing new life into the world (brightening the darkness just a little... and likely only for a little while). How long until the Nightbane mother realizes that the longer she keeps the child, the harder it will be for her to avoid the Night Lords and their minions and the greater the risk that the child will be put in harms way? Ever think that there might be a logical reason why many Nightbane were orphans, foundlings or adopted? Giving up a child for its own protection can be just as horrific as anything... even if it is the most humane thing to do. And what of those Nightbane mothers who can't bring themselves to do so... and one day find that the child that had given them so much joy has become a victim of this hidden war because the mother slipped up once and lead something home? You see such tragedy and horror played out in many novels, shows and even in real life where a mother on the run returns to a home she thought was safe for her children only to learn otherwise. There really are a lot of stories that can make having a child much more interesting and raises the stakes (and horror) to new levels.

[eliakon]

One of the things that makes me question whether or not shape shifting will cause a miscarriage was the various Were-Beasts. These beings are natural shape changers who, while supernatural in origin, are still mortal (they may live centuries, but they are born, grow old and eventually die by means other than violence). If they, as a viable race have no problem with shape changing and pregnancy (at least there is nothing printed stating that there shape changing cause problems with these creatures), then why would other shape shifters.

The point I am trying to make is that when magic is involved, one can not assume that the normal rules of science apply. Shape Shifting through non-magical means maintains things like general size and mass... what one changes into will be roughly the same size and mass as the original form (you can be taller but skinnier or shorter and fatter, but over all the same). Magic doesn't always abide by that rule. For example, a 100 ft, 10 ton dragon can shape shift into a form as small as a cat with the mass one expects for a cat of that size (a few pounds depending on over all size)... yet this transformed dragon still retains its supernatural level of strength, all of its SDC/HP and such... even with much less mass as a cat. Nightbane are similar in that their Morphus forms can be radically different from their Façade... much bigger or much smaller... and even their talents (such as Swarm Self) can further change things. To assume that something like pregnancy will be a hindrance to such magical transformations that literally fly in the face of both physics and biology seems like someone is trying to enforce rules on something that breaks the rules by definition.

One issue is that Nightbane are not shapeshifters....
They literally have two separate bodies.
The Façade does not turn into the Morpheus. It is replaced by the Morpheus.
This is why they have completely separate SDC and HP pools, why it is possible to stave of poison or disease in Morpheus form, et multiple cetera.

The simple fact is this... no one knows if Nightbane can become pregnant. No one knows what (if anything) would happen if one were to become pregnant. Sure you could try to impose biological rules, but the Nightbane don't exactly follow normal biological rules, so it seems a moot point.

Yes, Nightbane is at its core a horror game... and loosing an unborn child is quite horrific... but is that the sort of story you want to tell... where any transformation by a pregnant Nightbane will result in an automatic miscarriage? Or would you rather dwell on the supernatural horror aspects of fighting a hidden war against demonic invaders and let characters have moments of joy such as bringing new life into the world (brightening the darkness just a little... and likely only for a little while). How long until the Nightbane mother realizes that the longer she keeps the child, the harder it will be for her to avoid the Night Lords and their minions and the greater the risk that the child will be put in harms way? Ever think that there might be a logical reason why many Nightbane were orphans, foundlings or adopted? Giving up a child for its own protection can be just as horrific as anything... even if it is the most humane thing to do. And what of those Nightbane mothers who can't bring themselves to do so... and one day find that the child that had given them so much joy has become a victim of this hidden war because the mother slipped up once and lead something home? You see such tragedy and horror played out in many novels, shows and even in real life where a mother on the run returns to a home she thought was safe for her children only to learn otherwise. There really are a lot of stories that can make having a child much more interesting and raises the stakes (and horror) to new levels.

The main issue I have with Nightane coming from Nightbane is that it would imply that someone somewhere is perfectly erasing all records of who put up every nightbane child for adoption, or 'slipped them in'
If we have never had a single recorded instance of it....then that would mean that no one, ever, anywhere, has ever detected any of these birth mothers giving up their children AND that every single mother, ever, with out exception has given up their children.....
That seems a wee bit.....lets say unlikely.

Personally I would rather dwell on the horror of the fact that Nightbane are nigh immortal....but it seems that they can never ever have children of their own......

.....Naturally. Depraved magical experimentation, pacts with obscure gods, cyber-magical cloning.....nothing is beyond the pale for some people to be able to have their children....

[Razorwing]

Last time I checked... most people putting children up for adoption do not advertise they are Nightbane... and any Nightbane that might do so probably won't be using any traceable identification. Additionally, up until the past century or so, reliable records were rare for such things... and in the setting it is even rarer for a Nightbane mother to use "official" adoption procedures.

Even in the setting it suggests that many of those who grew up to become Nightbane were foundlings... often left at the doorstep of the families that would take them in and raise them... leaving no real paper trail to follow. This was much easier to do in historical times, before births and adoptions were commonly recorded. Even when such things were recorded, the reliability of those records were often in question... especially with families that didn't want it known that a child wasn't theirs by birth (for inheritance reasons to name one).

You seem to be under the impression that records of births and adoptions are perfectly tracked through out history... and that they would tell if one is a Nightbane or not. That just isn't the case. Many adopted children even today have a hard time finding out any information on their birth parents... and that is with fairly reliable records. For the Nightbane who try very hard to keep their existence from being widely known, there are ways to get around the system that leave very little to no trace of their passing.

[eliakon]

And that every Nightbane mother for at least the last ~10,000 years has put their children up through this.
Every one, with out a single exception.
And that in all that time no one, has ever, noticed.
And that not a single one. Ever. Has tried to keep their children.

I know this is a game and all....
....but that goes beyond credulity and into 'different species with totally different neural programing'

[Glistam]

And that every Nightbane mother for at least the last ~10,000 years has put their children up through this.
Every one, with out a single exception.
And that in all that time no one, has ever, noticed.
And that not a single one. Ever. Has tried to keep their children.

I know this is a game and all....
....but that goes beyond credulity and into 'different species with totally different neural programing'

Which is another reason why I reconciled the issue the way I did.

[Glistam]

Yes, Nightbane is at its core a horror game... and loosing an unborn child is quite horrific... but is that the sort of story you want to tell... where any transformation by a pregnant Nightbane will result in an automatic miscarriage?

I am quite prepared to tell the story of a female Nightbane finding out she is (impossibly) pregnant, and then learning that in order to carry her baby to term she must refrain from transforming for the duration of the pregnancy. Can she do such a thing, with the Nightlords and their minions a constant, looming threat? Facing challenges that could easily be overcome if she would just transform. The Nightbane Survival Guide, as I remember, even offers guidelines for forcing transformations during moments of stress which the Nightbane must save against.

As a plot element I can absolutely see that. Either as a character a player chooses to play, or a game where the players are protecting such a character - watching over her, allowing her to come to term with her "pure" Nightbane baby. I think the movie "Children of Men" offers some fun inspiration for such a game.

[eliakon]

Yes, Nightbane is at its core a horror game... and loosing an unborn child is quite horrific... but is that the sort of story you want to tell... where any transformation by a pregnant Nightbane will result in an automatic miscarriage?

I am quite prepared to tell the story of a female Nightbane finding out she is (impossibly) pregnant, and then learning that in order to carry her baby to term she must refrain from transforming for the duration of the pregnancy. Can she do such a thing, with the Nightlords and their minions a constant, looming threat? Facing challenges that could easily be overcome if she would just transform. The Nightbane Survival Guide, as I remember, even offers guidelines for forcing transformations during moments of stress which the Nightbane must save against.

As a plot element I can absolutely see that. Either as a character a player chooses to play, or a game where the players are protecting such a character - watching over her, allowing her to come to term with her "pure" Nightbane baby. I think the movie "Children of Men" offers some fun inspiration for such a game.

That is an interesting plot.....
*ponders* A "true Nightbane"...if only it can be born......
...Hmmmm, sounds like its time to write up some messianic prophecies.....

[Razorwing]

And how can you be sure? It isn't like the history of the Earth doesn't have more holes in it than Swiss Cheese? Do you have a complete record of what every Nightbane did on every single day for the past 10,000 years? Nope. Only major events are usually recorded... and Nightbane in general try to avoid being noticed.

Additionally, for most of the last 10,000 years, Nightbane have been hunted by both humans who fear and hate what they don't understand (and few beings are more misunderstood than Nightbane)... and servants of the Night Lords. Life for a Nightbane... especially when there were very few of them around the world... was never easy... and it gets even harder if you have to take care of an infant. Yes, it is likely that a few Nightbane Mothers did try to raise their children... some may have even succeeded... but to do so they would likely be in a very isolated area where there are few people to persecute them (if their nature is discovered)... which actually works against such information being recorded. Others probably failed and were killed along with their "demon-spawn"... and again... not likely to be recorded as "Found Nightbane and child... both were killed to preserve humanity"... but more likely as "Found demon spawn and destroyed them before they could escape".

Before Dark Day, there were very few active Nightbane in the world. Before the 20th century, few gathered in groups... for while there may be strength in numbers, there is also a much greater chance of discovery. The mortality rate for Nightbane... even before Dark Day was quite high... especially for the younger ones who were more prone to rash behavior. Still even the older ones would eventually find it necessary to move on before their slower aging rate in their Façade was noticed. When one is constantly on the move... it gets very difficult to track their movements... and many would be Nightbane mothers likely would find it easier to leave any children they might have with trusted friends who could take care of them better than they could.

There is a difference between having no record of something happening... and it never actually happening. Something like this could easily have happened many times over the last 10,000 years. However, since records of our past are woefully incomplete... especially about people who try not to be noticed, the chances of something like this being recorded is practically non-existant.

[say652]

I would say No.

[Rallan]

I'd go with the idea that they can breed, but they just have regular human babies like anyone else. If they could create Nightbane offspring there'd be a gazillion of them by now even if the average Nightbane woman only had one or two children a century.

[Ed]

I'd say it would only be possible with someone with the reciprocal reproductive organs and the nightbane trait is very recessive. Babies are put up for adoption or abandoned depending on the circumstances and culture. In their Facade form, they have regular human babies.

[Axelmania]

Since when NB change their old HP/SDC goes into a kind of limbo, maybe the same is the case with a pregnancy? So staying in morphus to protect your child from harm would make sense.

[Marcethus]

This is why I remain firmly in the category of NO!!! Nightbane can not breed. And will remain as such.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Since when NB change their old HP/SDC goes into a kind of limbo, maybe the same is the case with a pregnancy? So staying in morphus to protect your child from harm would make sense.

This is why I remain firmly in the category of NO!!! Nightbane can not breed. And will remain as such.

This might be why female NB active in the fight vs the invaders don't get pregnant. But those living quietly as humans would not have the problems you brought up because they are no changing to their true selves for years at a time.

But as of the NBSG NB don't need other NB as their partner to have a bunch of kids.

If the NB trait gets passed down to the kids in an active form is unknowable till the kids have their becoming.

[Axelmania]

NBSG is to NB what RUE is to RIFTS, irreconcilable, but still very interesting new settings.

Maybe solve this by random fertility chances, but have infertility be more common with NB than with humans. Kind of like with Elves in other settings.

Random tables to cover this would also be cool, like maybe a chance for it to progress at different rates like taking twice as long or half as long.

Also ways to have the fetus become part of the morphus, like maybe your flesh turns aside to expose it like a stigmata... too terrifying?

[drewkitty ~..~]

As of the NBSG NB are humans. Why would they be infertile with humans if they are human?

You could just use a modified "Kittenstomp's Tables of Doom" for you game. (should be in the HU forum.)

[eliakon]

As of the NBSG NB are humans. Why would they be infertile with humans if they are human?

You could just use a modified "Kittenstomp's Tables of Doom" for you game. (should be in the HU forum.)

Where is that? I missed that nugget in the book, can you point me to it?

As for why... because I was not aware of any statement that said that the previous statement of "no Nightbane has ever..." was being rescinded.

[Marcethus]

I will stick with the "No they can not breed" because I still hold to the theory of them being the wraiths of the Formless Ones.

[Axelmania]

The new human Nightbane in Survival Guide are probably the result of Nightbane breeding with humans.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Within the Text of the book (that stuff in the front of the book ) it says that the NB are a result of activating latent genes within the human populations.

It is also reinforced by the Origens/Backgrounds table.( middle of the book.)

[Marcethus]

One of these days, rather soon, I will have to acquire me a copy of the Survival Guide.

[Axelmania]

But what activated thought latent genes? Maybe... the spirit of a Formless One merging with a human host?

So why do Nightbane always lack parents?

Perhaps merging with a human host requires ritually sacrificing their biological mother and father?

[drewkitty ~..~]

But what activated thought latent genes? Maybe... the spirit of a Formless One merging with a human host?

So why do Nightbane always lack parents?

Perhaps merging with a human host requires ritually sacrificing their biological mother and father?

You are speculating.

That all NB are orphans was also put to rest/kicked the bucket/put down/put to sleep/killed off/retconed with the Same "they are human" text in the NBSG.

[eliakon]

Within the Text of the book (that stuff in the front of the book ) it says that the NB are a result of activating latent genes within the human populations.

It is also reinforced by the Origens/Backgrounds table.( middle of the book.)

Could you be more specific than "the front of the book" and "middle of the book"?
I am interested in actually reading the specific text in its entirety myself and I don't really feel like doing a line by line analysis of the entire book.

[Marcethus]

But what activated thought latent genes? Maybe... the spirit of a Formless One merging with a human host?

So why do Nightbane always lack parents?

Perhaps merging with a human host requires ritually sacrificing their biological mother and father?

You are speculating.

That all NB are orphans was also put to rest/kicked the bucket/put down/put to sleep/killed off/retconed with the Same "they are human" text in the NBSG.

Even after I do own this book (as currently I do not own the NBSG) I will re-retcon it back to all Nightbane are orphans, which is how I have and always will run it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The way I always thought of this idea that NB are orphans…..is that they are really 'Foundlings' children that are just 'found' somewhere. Yes, in a modern socity they would go into the orphanages and concider then as orphans.

Foundlings can cover a few different situations: the parent left the child on a doorstep to protect the child, one or both of the parents is know to be dead, or……the child appears out of nothing where it will be found. This last one best meshes with the "wraiths of the formless ones" concept.