Leather Working skill question?

[isawarenshi]

Does someone with the Leather Working skill also need the Skin and Prepare Animal Hides skill or would Leather Working allow then to also skin?

[Killer Cyborg]

Does someone with the Leather Working skill also need the Skin and Prepare Animal Hides skill or would Leather Working allow then to also skin?

The Leather Working skill doesn't mention any specific ability to skin animals. It does mention tanning, which is the process of turning animal skin into leather, so the skill specifically addresses everything except for taking the skin off of the animal.
While there is likely some skill involved in skinning an animal, I'd say that somebody who is experienced in tanning hides would be familiar enough with the product in question to be able to skin an animal with fair efficiency. As a GM, I'd probably allow it without any problem using the Leather Working skill.

If I felt like being picky, I might impose a minor penalty, but even then a novice with a book and some time could probably accomplish it, and the rule of thumb for skill checks is to only require them when something unusual, important, and/or tricky is occurring.
Unless you're trying to perfectly skin the last unicorn or something, skinning animals isn't likely to fall under that banner most of the time.

[dragonfett]

Follow up question from me, how do you handle working with the hides of supernatural creatures or other MDC beings (such as Gallu demons, etc.)?

[Library Ogre]

Leather working lets you work with leather. Skin and Prepare Animal Hides lets you make leather. A Leatherworker can work with leather than someone else has made.

For working with MD skins, I'd require either MD-capable strength and an MDC implement, an MD-capable implement, or (preferably) a magic implement. So, someone with supernatural strength can use an MDC needle, someone without supernatural strength can use a needle capable of doing MD damage, or someone can use a magical needle designed to work with MDC leather. I don't require the implement to do a full MD point of damage, but to be capable of it. I imagine lots of mundane-strength creatures working with MD leather make some relatively crude stitches, using vibro-blades to cut.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Does someone with the Leather Working skill also need the Skin and Prepare Animal Hides skill or would Leather Working allow then to also skin?

I the char wants to take a hunted animal and turn it into a finished product they would need both skills.

[Blue_Lion]

Does someone with the Leather Working skill also need the Skin and Prepare Animal Hides skill or would Leather Working allow then to also skin?

The Leather Working skill doesn't mention any specific ability to skin animals. It does mention tanning, which is the process of turning animal skin into leather, so the skill specifically addresses everything except for taking the skin off of the animal.
While there is likely some skill involved in skinning an animal, I'd say that somebody who is experienced in tanning hides would be familiar enough with the product in question to be able to skin an animal with fair efficiency. As a GM, I'd probably allow it without any problem using the Leather Working skill.

If I felt like being picky, I might impose a minor penalty, but even then a novice with a book and some time could probably accomplish it, and the rule of thumb for skill checks is to only require them when something unusual, important, and/or tricky is occurring.
Unless you're trying to perfectly skin the last unicorn or something, skinning animals isn't likely to fall under that banner most of the time.

Skinning would most likely be done by a hunter or worker at a slaughter house. If the leather worker had the hunting skill then that would cover it. If the leather worker is not the hunter or slaughter house worker he probably gets the skins from them.

[dragonfett]

Leather working lets you work with leather. Skin and Prepare Animal Hides lets you make leather. A Leatherworker can work with leather than someone else has made.

For working with MD skins, I'd require either MD-capable strength and an MDC implement, an MD-capable implement, or (preferably) a magic implement. So, someone with supernatural strength can use an MDC needle, someone without supernatural strength can use a needle capable of doing MD damage, or someone can use a magical needle designed to work with MDC leather. I don't require the implement to do a full MD point of damage, but to be capable of it. I imagine lots of mundane-strength creatures working with MD leather make some relatively crude stitches, using vibro-blades to cut.

Would augmented strength and a vibro-blade be sufficient for the skinning?

[Killer Cyborg]

Does someone with the Leather Working skill also need the Skin and Prepare Animal Hides skill or would Leather Working allow then to also skin?

The Leather Working skill doesn't mention any specific ability to skin animals. It does mention tanning, which is the process of turning animal skin into leather, so the skill specifically addresses everything except for taking the skin off of the animal.
While there is likely some skill involved in skinning an animal, I'd say that somebody who is experienced in tanning hides would be familiar enough with the product in question to be able to skin an animal with fair efficiency. As a GM, I'd probably allow it without any problem using the Leather Working skill.

If I felt like being picky, I might impose a minor penalty, but even then a novice with a book and some time could probably accomplish it, and the rule of thumb for skill checks is to only require them when something unusual, important, and/or tricky is occurring.
Unless you're trying to perfectly skin the last unicorn or something, skinning animals isn't likely to fall under that banner most of the time.

Skinning would most likely be done by a hunter or worker at a slaughter house. If the leather worker had the hunting skill then that would cover it. If the leather worker is not the hunter or slaughter house worker he probably gets the skins from them.

Is there some step between skinning and tanning?

[Library Ogre]

Leather working lets you work with leather. Skin and Prepare Animal Hides lets you make leather. A Leatherworker can work with leather than someone else has made.

For working with MD skins, I'd require either MD-capable strength and an MDC implement, an MD-capable implement, or (preferably) a magic implement. So, someone with supernatural strength can use an MDC needle, someone without supernatural strength can use a needle capable of doing MD damage, or someone can use a magical needle designed to work with MDC leather. I don't require the implement to do a full MD point of damage, but to be capable of it. I imagine lots of mundane-strength creatures working with MD leather make some relatively crude stitches, using vibro-blades to cut.

Would augmented strength and a vibro-blade be sufficient for the skinning?

I'd say a vibro-blade alone would be sufficient for skinning... but I also see I worded my paragraph poorly. Mea culpa. Here's a better way of putting what I meant to say in the italicized paragraph.

For working with MD leather, I'd require either MD-capable strength and an MDC implement, an MD-capable implement, or (preferably) a magic implement. So, someone with supernatural strength can use an MDC needle or awl, someone without supernatural strength can use a needle capable of doing MD damage, or someone can use a magical needle designed to work with MDC leather. I don't require the implement to do a full MD point of damage, but to be capable of it. I imagine lots of mundane-strength creatures working with MD leather make some relatively crude stitches, using vibro-blades to cut. Skinning itself is relatively simple compared to working with MDC leather... an MD-capable tool, like a vibro-knife, would be all that's required.

That said, TANNING MDC leather is going to be interesting. I doubt oak tannins are going to cut it.

[Blue_Lion]

Does someone with the Leather Working skill also need the Skin and Prepare Animal Hides skill or would Leather Working allow then to also skin?

The Leather Working skill doesn't mention any specific ability to skin animals. It does mention tanning, which is the process of turning animal skin into leather, so the skill specifically addresses everything except for taking the skin off of the animal.
While there is likely some skill involved in skinning an animal, I'd say that somebody who is experienced in tanning hides would be familiar enough with the product in question to be able to skin an animal with fair efficiency. As a GM, I'd probably allow it without any problem using the Leather Working skill.

If I felt like being picky, I might impose a minor penalty, but even then a novice with a book and some time could probably accomplish it, and the rule of thumb for skill checks is to only require them when something unusual, important, and/or tricky is occurring.
Unless you're trying to perfectly skin the last unicorn or something, skinning animals isn't likely to fall under that banner most of the time.

Skinning would most likely be done by a hunter or worker at a slaughter house. If the leather worker had the hunting skill then that would cover it. If the leather worker is not the hunter or slaughter house worker he probably gets the skins from them.

Is there some step between skinning and tanning?

Yes.
You need to trim off any animal meat and cool them. Then salt them as soon as you can. Then there is transporting to where you will tan them.
For those that have never tanned some reference sites.

http://www.braintan.com/intro/intro.html
http://www.motherearthnews.com/homestea ... z01on.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning
http://www.motherearthnews.com/homestea ... z01on.aspx

[kaid]

Does someone with the Leather Working skill also need the Skin and Prepare Animal Hides skill or would Leather Working allow then to also skin?

The Leather Working skill doesn't mention any specific ability to skin animals. It does mention tanning, which is the process of turning animal skin into leather, so the skill specifically addresses everything except for taking the skin off of the animal.
While there is likely some skill involved in skinning an animal, I'd say that somebody who is experienced in tanning hides would be familiar enough with the product in question to be able to skin an animal with fair efficiency. As a GM, I'd probably allow it without any problem using the Leather Working skill.

If I felt like being picky, I might impose a minor penalty, but even then a novice with a book and some time could probably accomplish it, and the rule of thumb for skill checks is to only require them when something unusual, important, and/or tricky is occurring.
Unless you're trying to perfectly skin the last unicorn or something, skinning animals isn't likely to fall under that banner most of the time.

I would tend to think they would need the other skills. Leather working has only minimal to do with skinning and preparing the hide. I have done leather working and am reasonably good at it but I am horrible at skinning animals correctly it is something that takes a lot of practice to get good at. And preparing the hides requires a good bit of specialized knowledge on how to best handle the leather/fur one is working with.

[Killer Cyborg]

Does someone with the Leather Working skill also need the Skin and Prepare Animal Hides skill or would Leather Working allow then to also skin?

The Leather Working skill doesn't mention any specific ability to skin animals. It does mention tanning, which is the process of turning animal skin into leather, so the skill specifically addresses everything except for taking the skin off of the animal.
While there is likely some skill involved in skinning an animal, I'd say that somebody who is experienced in tanning hides would be familiar enough with the product in question to be able to skin an animal with fair efficiency. As a GM, I'd probably allow it without any problem using the Leather Working skill.

If I felt like being picky, I might impose a minor penalty, but even then a novice with a book and some time could probably accomplish it, and the rule of thumb for skill checks is to only require them when something unusual, important, and/or tricky is occurring.
Unless you're trying to perfectly skin the last unicorn or something, skinning animals isn't likely to fall under that banner most of the time.

Skinning would most likely be done by a hunter or worker at a slaughter house. If the leather worker had the hunting skill then that would cover it. If the leather worker is not the hunter or slaughter house worker he probably gets the skins from them.

Is there some step between skinning and tanning?

Yes.
You need to trim off any animal meat and cool them. Then salt them as soon as you can. Then there is transporting to where you will tan them.
For those that have never tanned some reference sites.

http://www.braintan.com/intro/intro.html
http://www.motherearthnews.com/homestea ... z01on.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning
http://www.motherearthnews.com/homestea ... z01on.aspx

Alright!
That does make it looked like Skin & Prepare Hides would be more important than I initially believed.

[Blue_Lion]

Alright!
That does make it looked like Skin & Prepare Hides would be more important than I initially believed.

Grew up poor hunting was a way to put food on the table prepaired skins if you know the right people could recover the cost of bullets at the time.

[Axelmania]

Imagine if the "vibration" aspect of vibro-blades somehow made it into game mechanics and using them to cut hides ended up with really messy jagged lines.

Maybe the only way to get a "smooth" cut with a vibro blade is when they travel at high speeds through swinging in big wind-up arcs, something that would interfere with the accurate measurements needed in tailoring.

Laser-swords/knives/scalpels wouldn't have the problem, but might also set fire to flammable flesh, so they come with their own set of problems.

Then you have the energy-free MD weapons made out of some weird tree in florida which might be ideal.

[Killer Cyborg]

Imagine if the "vibration" aspect of vibro-blades somehow made it into game mechanics and using them to cut hides ended up with really messy jagged lines.

Maybe the only way to get a "smooth" cut with a vibro blade is when they travel at high speeds through swinging in big wind-up arcs, something that would interfere with the accurate measurements needed in tailoring.

Laser-swords/knives/scalpels wouldn't have the problem, but might also set fire to flammable flesh, so they come with their own set of problems.

Then you have the energy-free MD weapons made out of some weird tree in florida which might be ideal.

When I run things, vibro-weapons are NOT precision implements, and the wound channel is wider than the blade itself due to the energy field.
So yeah, I'd go with lasers being better, or magical scalpels and such.

Psychic Surgery might be another effective way to skin game, if the GM allowed.

[Library Ogre]

Psychic Surgery might be another effective way to skin game, if the GM allowed.

Good thought! I'd allow it, provided you were dealing with a corpse (or someone restrained so they couldn't get out, which could make an interesting and gruesome serial killer for BtS/Nightbane).

[dragonfett]

Psychic Surgery might be another effective way to skin game, if the GM allowed.

Good thought! I'd allow it, provided you were dealing with a corpse (or someone restrained so they couldn't get out, which could make an interesting and gruesome serial killer for BtS/Nightbane).

Or "enhanced interrogation" techniques...

[Blue_Lion]

Imagine if the "vibration" aspect of vibro-blades somehow made it into game mechanics and using them to cut hides ended up with really messy jagged lines.

Maybe the only way to get a "smooth" cut with a vibro blade is when they travel at high speeds through swinging in big wind-up arcs, something that would interfere with the accurate measurements needed in tailoring.

Laser-swords/knives/scalpels wouldn't have the problem, but might also set fire to flammable flesh, so they come with their own set of problems.

Then you have the energy-free MD weapons made out of some weird tree in florida which might be ideal.

When I run things, vibro-weapons are NOT precision implements, and the wound channel is wider than the blade itself due to the energy field.
So yeah, I'd go with lasers being better, or magical scalpels and such.

Psychic Surgery might be another effective way to skin game, if the GM allowed.

Have to agree with you on vibro weapon not being precision implements after all they are vibrating. Skinning with lasers might be tricky thou, cutting sure they are good at but there is a little more to skinning than just cutting

[Killer Cyborg]

Imagine if the "vibration" aspect of vibro-blades somehow made it into game mechanics and using them to cut hides ended up with really messy jagged lines.

Maybe the only way to get a "smooth" cut with a vibro blade is when they travel at high speeds through swinging in big wind-up arcs, something that would interfere with the accurate measurements needed in tailoring.

Laser-swords/knives/scalpels wouldn't have the problem, but might also set fire to flammable flesh, so they come with their own set of problems.

Then you have the energy-free MD weapons made out of some weird tree in florida which might be ideal.

When I run things, vibro-weapons are NOT precision implements, and the wound channel is wider than the blade itself due to the energy field.
So yeah, I'd go with lasers being better, or magical scalpels and such.

Psychic Surgery might be another effective way to skin game, if the GM allowed.

Have to agree with you on vibro weapon not being precision implements after all they are vibrating. Skinning with lasers might be tricky thou, cutting sure they are good at but there is a little more to skinning than just cutting

I didn't say "good," only "better."

"Good" would be a magical skinning knife.

[Axelmania]

Have to agree with you on vibro weapon not being precision implements after all they are vibrating.

I don't even know anymore, I get mixed up because of the 'energy field' aspect.

[kaid]

The small wilks minor MDC lasers operators use would probably work. Small tight beam MDC but as minimal as you can get and still punch through the hide. Slow work on a big kill but short of some magical/fetish knife probably one of the better options.

[rat_bastard]

My cyber knight has a set of skorblades (back of merc ops) made for skinning for this express purpose.

[eliakon]

A vibro-scalpel might be a useful tool here for someone that doesn't have/use magical blades.

[kaid]

A vibro-scalpel might be a useful tool here for someone that doesn't have/use magical blades.

Yup this or the ones operators use for working with vehicles. If a laser is useful enough as a scalpel it should be able to be used as a skinning tool although probably pretty slow. Ironically the people who are most likely to be interested in harvesting dino hides for use in armor are also some of the better equipped to manage it. Most of the lower tech native type people tend to have things like fetish knives or eco wizardy weapons or other magical blade weapons all of which would be pretty much ideal for skinning the carcass of mega damage critters.

[Library Ogre]

With a laser, I'd worry about the heat damaging the hide, either directly or indirectly.

[kaid]

With a laser, I'd worry about the heat damaging the hide, either directly or indirectly.

There is some worry of that but when you are working with a substance effectively equivalent to tank armor pretty sure the minor scorching a laser scalpel would do probably is not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. Also for a lot of skinning you are actually not cutting that many things if you can do it right. In a lot of cases you are making one big lateral incisions and a few around the ankles and then the rest is a matter of carefully peeling the skin off and just making light snips as needed on connective tissues that may be necessary. When done well though I have seen a deer skinned with one long cut four small ones around the ankle and it was like taking a jacket off. I am not that skillful and when I try it winds up looking more like a horror movie.

[Axelmania]

My cyber knight has a set of skorblades (back of merc ops) made for skinning for this express purpose.

Page 152 mentions they're "just as sharp" as any vibro-blade... but are vibro-blades even especially sharp? If anything since their damage comes from vibration and/or energy field I would imagine they wouldn't even need to be sharp.

These things seem too cheap to me. If these exist, how are vibro-blades even still in business?

Even just based on damage, 5000 credits for 1D4 MD sounds like a better deal than 7000 for 1D6 MD. Plus other benefits:
*silent (I think vibroblades hum, making them bad for stealth)
*ceramic (going through metal detectors like Wilks, I assume Vibro-blades contain some metal and can't do that)
*a strike/parry bonus and are more durable (200 MDC vs the mere 12 MDC a vibro-knife is given in Conversion Book)
*not registering as electronic (Electrokinesis would be able to detect vibro-blades)
*not needing batteries (not sure what the battery demands are for vibro-blades but whatever the GM determines, they must exist)

I would posit that this low price is explained by:
*a brief low-price promotion to generate interest and develope a reputation, prices would go up over time as consumer confidence was built
*people would be very suspicious of non-technological MD melee weapons, suspecting magic even if Psi-Stalkers swore up and down that they didn't smell magical, so using them would come with a stigma that could get you in the CS and other magic-phobe communities

[Blue_Lion]

With a laser, I'd worry about the heat damaging the hide, either directly or indirectly.

There is some worry of that but when you are working with a substance effectively equivalent to tank armor pretty sure the minor scorching a laser scalpel would do probably is not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. Also for a lot of skinning you are actually not cutting that many things if you can do it right. In a lot of cases you are making one big lateral incisions and a few around the ankles and then the rest is a matter of carefully peeling the skin off and just making light snips as needed on connective tissues that may be necessary. When done well though I have seen a deer skinned with one long cut four small ones around the ankle and it was like taking a jacket off. I am not that skillful and when I try it winds up looking more like a horror movie.

I think it is not about scorching but ruining the preservation process. The heat can cause a change in the hides make up that prevents it from being persevered to be tanned. Salting and cooling as quick as possible is a key step, adding more heat means you may have a hide that spoils.

[eliakon]

My cyber knight has a set of skorblades (back of merc ops) made for skinning for this express purpose.

Page 152 mentions they're "just as sharp" as any vibro-blade... but are vibro-blades even especially sharp? If anything since their damage comes from vibration and/or energy field I would imagine they wouldn't even need to be sharp.

These things seem too cheap to me. If these exist, how are vibro-blades even still in business?

Even just based on damage, 5000 credits for 1D4 MD sounds like a better deal than 7000 for 1D6 MD. Plus other benefits:
*silent (I think vibroblades hum, making them bad for stealth)
*ceramic (going through metal detectors like Wilks, I assume Vibro-blades contain some metal and can't do that)
*a strike/parry bonus and are more durable (200 MDC vs the mere 12 MDC a vibro-knife is given in Conversion Book)
*not registering as electronic (Electrokinesis would be able to detect vibro-blades)
*not needing batteries (not sure what the battery demands are for vibro-blades but whatever the GM determines, they must exist)

I would posit that this low price is explained by:
*a brief low-price promotion to generate interest and develope a reputation, prices would go up over time as consumer confidence was built
*people would be very suspicious of non-technological MD melee weapons, suspecting magic even if Psi-Stalkers swore up and down that they didn't smell magical, so using them would come with a stigma that could get you in the CS and other magic-phobe communities

There is also the fact that they are only available from one extra-dimensional vendor in Merc-Town. A vendor who is a techno-wizardry firm. So its going to be (rightly) assumed to be the product of magic...this may even be able to be object read off of it.

So supplies are going to be limited (one store total), and they will have the 'alien tech' stigma, AND the magic stigma....

[Axelmania]

Seems like a temporary situation, once people start reselling these, it won't come from a magic vendor and most aren't able to object read.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Could you use the teeth/claws from a MD creature to achieve the results you want? This would remove any concern about heat damage from energy weapons or messy cuts via vibro blades. Plus finding/salvaging a tooth/claw from a dead critter has to be easier than scrounging up a magic doohicky or the credits to pay for one.

*To clarify I meant for the cleaning/scraping of the hide during the skinning/tanning process. For leather working I think.. yeah, probably a specialized non-energy/vibro md tool should be used for cutting and stitching (I'd allow an md bone needle but that's probably a magic item).

[Axelmania]

MDC teeth/claws don't inherently inflict MD all the time, that's sometimes just due to the creature's strength.

[dragonfett]

No, but Steel Tree weapons inherently do MD damage without vibration fields or heat from lasers or high levels of strength.