Conjurer wants to make napalm

[Illendaver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckSoDW2-wrc This has given one of my players ideas. He wants to play as a conjurer with all the skills for chemistry and create Thioacetone. The book seems to skip any mention of chemicals but any chemical could theoretically fall under the category of "objects". Needless to say, this is going to be incredibly disruptive in the group if it ever happens. What is the full ruling on this?

[eliakon]

The GM has final say on what can and can not be conjured and what properties it may or may not have..
I would simply say that if it is disruptive to the game, that is a perfectly valid reason to say "I am sorry, that would disrupt the game so I am going to have to rule no."
There is a reason we have GMs after all.
I would also point out that they can't conjure grenades, and seem to be restricted from conjuring explosives, batteries (just chemicals), and gasoline so....

[Shark_Force]

napalm presumably deals SDC damage. i don't imagine it will be terribly broken.

[Blue_Lion]

Option one gm rules that objects made are magical constructs of a general hardness/durability and not any specific chemical make up. Can't make silver weapons or bone weapons but can make something that looks like it.

Option two gm rules that the caster can make specific materials so that not only could napalm be made but silver or bone weapons. He could also make poisons and drugs.

[say652]

Technically explosives.
Required skills Demolitions and Chemistry Analytical.

[Nightmask]

Why would it be disruptive? You really do need to say, since with the various items, spells, natural abilities, etc. available to the average PC I'm not seeing why you think the ability to create Napalm would be so disruptive.

[Blue_Lion]

Why would it be disruptive? You really do need to say, since with the various items, spells, natural abilities, etc. available to the average PC I'm not seeing why you think the ability to create Napalm would be so disruptive.

I do not think it is the napalm itself but the door that it opens. If he can create things with a specific chemical make up he could also make explosives (although using them would might require demolition on top of chemistry but they an be made with a chemical formula) even MD plastic or dynamite. If he can do this then he cam any chemical compound, Poisson, drugs, MD acid. You just turn a conjurer into a walking chemical weapon. Then the argument well if I can make chemicals I can also make silver, or bone weapons. Heck they could then make contents perm for say a TW.

It is not the napalm but the spiral that people may see as disruptive.

[Illendaver]

It is not only the napalm, specifically he is asking to make Thioacetone, one of the chemicals in the video. Google it or watch the video for a full understanding, but the short story is this chemical smells so overpoweringly bad that it can make you vomit from 1/4 of a kilometer away. As I understand things he also wants to be able to make plastic explosives and use some pre-bought detonators to blow them up. The argument is that if he has the right skills (NBC warfare, Demolitions, Demolitions disposal, Chemistry, Chemistry analytical, Chemistry pharmaceutical) and the proper hands on knowledge that would come with working in a scientific lab or handling explosives over a period of time to be considered trained in their use, he should be able to satisfy all conditions in the book for creating any specific chemical that he knows of (in character).

[Nightmask]

It is not only the napalm, specifically he is asking to make Thioacetone, one of the chemicals in the video. Google it or watch the video for a full understanding, but the short story is this chemical smells so overpoweringly bad that it can make you vomit from 1/4 of a kilometer away. As I understand things he also wants to be able to make plastic explosives and use some pre-bought detonators to blow them up. The argument is that if he has the right skills (NBC warfare, Demolitions, Demolitions disposal, Chemistry, Chemistry analytical, Chemistry pharmaceutical) and the proper hands on knowledge that would come with working in a scientific lab or handling explosives over a period of time to be considered trained in their use, he should be able to satisfy all conditions in the book for creating any specific chemical that he knows of (in character).

Sounds like he's trying to be overly clever when he could conjure up considerably less complicated things that would be far more devastating and to the point. Still everyone's got tricks and things they'd love to try out in a game, maybe you should let him try and show you how he can make it work? After discussing things with him of course and voicing your concerns and how he might have to limit himself if it looks like it's taking the game too far in a direction that it's making it difficult or impossible for you or the rest of the group to keep up.

[Blue_Lion]

It is not only the napalm, specifically he is asking to make Thioacetone, one of the chemicals in the video. Google it or watch the video for a full understanding, but the short story is this chemical smells so overpoweringly bad that it can make you vomit from 1/4 of a kilometer away. As I understand things he also wants to be able to make plastic explosives and use some pre-bought detonators to blow them up. The argument is that if he has the right skills (NBC warfare, Demolitions, Demolitions disposal, Chemistry, Chemistry analytical, Chemistry pharmaceutical) and the proper hands on knowledge that would come with working in a scientific lab or handling explosives over a period of time to be considered trained in their use, he should be able to satisfy all conditions in the book for creating any specific chemical that he knows of (in character).

If you want to shut him down just say that conjured items are magical constructs that mimic the texture and durability but are not chemical specific, they are solidified PPE. He can create a liquid the same color but it would have none of the properties. When he counters withe the part where it talks about bullets, you counter with black powder weapons the bullet is separate from the powder. No creating silver weapons, weapons no creating bombs.

Basically it is you use magic to make something that looks and feels like Y but it is still just a magic construct.

[Blue_Lion]

It is not only the napalm, specifically he is asking to make Thioacetone, one of the chemicals in the video. Google it or watch the video for a full understanding, but the short story is this chemical smells so overpoweringly bad that it can make you vomit from 1/4 of a kilometer away. As I understand things he also wants to be able to make plastic explosives and use some pre-bought detonators to blow them up. The argument is that if he has the right skills (NBC warfare, Demolitions, Demolitions disposal, Chemistry, Chemistry analytical, Chemistry pharmaceutical) and the proper hands on knowledge that would come with working in a scientific lab or handling explosives over a period of time to be considered trained in their use, he should be able to satisfy all conditions in the book for creating any specific chemical that he knows of (in character).

Sounds like he's trying to be overly clever when he could conjure up considerably less complicated things that would be far more devastating and to the point. Still everyone's got tricks and things they'd love to try out in a game, maybe you should let him try and show you how he can make it work? After discussing things with him of course and voicing your concerns and how he might have to limit himself if it looks like it's taking the game too far in a direction that it's making it difficult or impossible for you or the rest of the group to keep up.

The problem is that he is trying to use real world NBC in Rifts, it is a bad can of worms to open and from your post you seam not to understand how bad of a can of worms it is. Think about it he wants to make a chemical that can incapacitate every one not within 250m or 825 feet. He will then want to put it in a arrow or missile and shoot it. Doing this with a mage it will allow him to shut dog boys at much greater range. You can not stop him by saying the stuff to make the chemical is unavailable.

He will keep progressing and pulling in real world things not stated and create broaken stuff or reach a point where he just summons weapons grade nuclear material to make a city buster nuke.

[Nightmask]

It is not only the napalm, specifically he is asking to make Thioacetone, one of the chemicals in the video. Google it or watch the video for a full understanding, but the short story is this chemical smells so overpoweringly bad that it can make you vomit from 1/4 of a kilometer away. As I understand things he also wants to be able to make plastic explosives and use some pre-bought detonators to blow them up. The argument is that if he has the right skills (NBC warfare, Demolitions, Demolitions disposal, Chemistry, Chemistry analytical, Chemistry pharmaceutical) and the proper hands on knowledge that would come with working in a scientific lab or handling explosives over a period of time to be considered trained in their use, he should be able to satisfy all conditions in the book for creating any specific chemical that he knows of (in character).

Sounds like he's trying to be overly clever when he could conjure up considerably less complicated things that would be far more devastating and to the point. Still everyone's got tricks and things they'd love to try out in a game, maybe you should let him try and show you how he can make it work? After discussing things with him of course and voicing your concerns and how he might have to limit himself if it looks like it's taking the game too far in a direction that it's making it difficult or impossible for you or the rest of the group to keep up.

The problem is that he is trying to use real world NBC in Rifts, it is a bad can of worms to open and from your post you seam not to understand how bad of a can of worms it is. Think about it he wants to make a chemical that can incapacitate every one not within 250m or 825 feet. He will then want to put it in a arrow or missile and shoot it. Doing this with a mage it will allow him to shut dog boys at much greater range. You can not stop him by saying the stuff to make the chemical is unavailable.

He will keep progressing and pulling in real world things not stated and create broaken stuff or reach a point where he just summons weapons grade nuclear material to make a city buster nuke.

I gather you're the one not understanding, since that real world stuff exists in the game even if not stated since the underlying premise of virtually any game like Rifts is 'like reality unless otherwise noted'. You also apparently don't understand that there is no such thing as 'broken', only 'unsuited to this particular game'. So yes, in this example he wants to create a chemical that's potentially highly incapacitating, provided the targets are in open air and otherwise not shielded. In a setting where full environmental body armor and power armor and robot vehicles are common. Where Dog Boys do actually have access to said armor since even as disposable troops the CS would still prefer them not be one-hit-kills for the enemy. Which is why the originator of the post needs to evaluate it with the player and test it out to see if the impact it has is greater than he's able or willing to script for instead of rejecting it out of hand.

[Blue_Lion]

It is not only the napalm, specifically he is asking to make Thioacetone, one of the chemicals in the video. Google it or watch the video for a full understanding, but the short story is this chemical smells so overpoweringly bad that it can make you vomit from 1/4 of a kilometer away. As I understand things he also wants to be able to make plastic explosives and use some pre-bought detonators to blow them up. The argument is that if he has the right skills (NBC warfare, Demolitions, Demolitions disposal, Chemistry, Chemistry analytical, Chemistry pharmaceutical) and the proper hands on knowledge that would come with working in a scientific lab or handling explosives over a period of time to be considered trained in their use, he should be able to satisfy all conditions in the book for creating any specific chemical that he knows of (in character).

Sounds like he's trying to be overly clever when he could conjure up considerably less complicated things that would be far more devastating and to the point. Still everyone's got tricks and things they'd love to try out in a game, maybe you should let him try and show you how he can make it work? After discussing things with him of course and voicing your concerns and how he might have to limit himself if it looks like it's taking the game too far in a direction that it's making it difficult or impossible for you or the rest of the group to keep up.

The problem is that he is trying to use real world NBC in Rifts, it is a bad can of worms to open and from your post you seam not to understand how bad of a can of worms it is. Think about it he wants to make a chemical that can incapacitate every one not within 250m or 825 feet. He will then want to put it in a arrow or missile and shoot it. Doing this with a mage it will allow him to shut dog boys at much greater range. You can not stop him by saying the stuff to make the chemical is unavailable.

He will keep progressing and pulling in real world things not stated and create broaken stuff or reach a point where he just summons weapons grade nuclear material to make a city buster nuke.

I gather you're the one not understanding, since that real world stuff exists in the game even if not stated since the underlying premise of virtually any game like Rifts is 'like reality unless otherwise noted'. You also apparently don't understand that there is no such thing as 'broken', only 'unsuited to this particular game'. So yes, in this example he wants to create a chemical that's potentially highly incapacitating, provided the targets are in open air and otherwise not shielded. In a setting where full environmental body armor and power armor and robot vehicles are common. Where Dog Boys do actually have access to said armor since even as disposable troops the CS would still prefer them not be one-hit-kills for the enemy. Which is why the originator of the post needs to evaluate it with the player and test it out to see if the impact it has is greater than he's able or willing to script for instead of rejecting it out of hand.

EBA may be common for players, and standing armies but most dog boys are not issued it, the standard armor is the non eba dog boy armor, eba is only issued in special cases. In addition one of the strengths of them is there sense of smell, so being buttoned up would cost them that advantage. Not to mention not all foes are humanoid, or armor wearers.

Your statement about things from real life being in the game is straight up wrong. Something not stated is not in the game unless some one puts it there. It may have the potential to be there but is not there until some one adds it. In this case the player is trying to meta-game stuff in the game with the concept to create situation that the gm has to deal with issues not part of the normal game. This places allot of strain on the GM and is an attempt to create OP situations. What could a bomb maker do if he could create 40 pounds of weapons grade nuclear material at will? The potential for this path to be abused and the fact it goes out of normal mechanics makes it inherently broken. The ordinal poster has already evaluated it and found as a GM it would be disruptive, something he does not want to happen. So you are arguing against what the OP is looking for.

[ShadowLogan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckSoDW2-wrc This has given one of my players ideas. He wants to play as a conjurer with all the skills for chemistry and create Thioacetone. The book seems to skip any mention of chemicals but any chemical could theoretically fall under the category of "objects". Needless to say, this is going to be incredibly disruptive in the group if it ever happens. What is the full ruling on this?

"Energy weapons, Vibro-Blades, most modern guns, grenades, rockets, computers, radios, E-clips, batteries, generators, engines, and similar complex or energy dependent devices are all examples of objects that CAN NOT be conjured."-WB16 pg83

I would have to say that the resulting materials he wants to create are covered by this. The Conjurer can't create batteries, which involve chemical reactions but are hardly complex/moving parts (aside from the electrons). Nor can they create grenades (chemical reaction). The same goes for rockets and engines (chemical reactions), no matter how simple. Though you can make old style revolvers and black powder guns, and bullets (just the projectile or projectile plus propellant?).

Now they could make containers/devices to handle the actual raw materials, or even the processed materials, but the materials itself would seem to be out.

From the OLD FAQ in the Cutting Room Floor (the NEW FAQ in the forums doesn’t address it)
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

According to above link #37: "The food will be filling, but not provide any nutrition unless the P.P.E. is spent for permanency." in regard to conjured food. So I would have to say that unless they are willing to spend the PPE for permanency it has no chance of working if I where to even allow it.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

Further more the second link #149: "They will look genuine, unless you decide the substance it is made out of is different." in relation to conjured items. So you can ultimately decide if the item created is the actual substance or a visual-stand-in. I would also checkout #127, basically you have to decide if the conjured materials are complex or simple enough. #109 doesn't really help, but might. #11 here definitely helps given you can't use conjured animals to get PPE for sacrifice (further suggesting it is just a visual stand-in).

[The Beast]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckSoDW2-wrc This has given one of my players ideas. He wants to play as a conjurer with all the skills for chemistry and create Thioacetone. The book seems to skip any mention of chemicals but any chemical could theoretically fall under the category of "objects". Needless to say, this is going to be incredibly disruptive in the group if it ever happens. What is the full ruling on this?

"Energy weapons, Vibro-Blades, most modern guns, grenades, rockets, computers, radios, E-clips, batteries, generators, engines, and similar complex or energy dependent devices are all examples of objects that CAN NOT be conjured."-WB16 pg83

I would have to say that the resulting materials he wants to create are covered by this. The Conjurer can't create batteries, which involve chemical reactions but are hardly complex/moving parts (aside from the electrons). Nor can they create grenades (chemical reaction). The same goes for rockets and engines (chemical reactions), no matter how simple. Though you can make old style revolvers and black powder guns, and bullets (just the projectile or projectile plus propellant?).

Now they could make containers/devices to handle the actual raw materials, or even the processed materials, but the materials itself would seem to be out.

From the OLD FAQ in the Cutting Room Floor (the NEW FAQ in the forums doesn’t address it)
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

According to above link #37: "The food will be filling, but not provide any nutrition unless the P.P.E. is spent for permanency." in regard to conjured food. So I would have to say that unless they are willing to spend the PPE for permanency it has no chance of working if I where to even allow it.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

Further more the second link #149: "They will look genuine, unless you decide the substance it is made out of is different." in relation to conjured items. So you can ultimately decide if the item created is the actual substance or a visual-stand-in. I would also checkout #127, basically you have to decide if the conjured materials are complex or simple enough. #109 doesn't really help, but might. #11 here definitely helps given you can't use conjured animals to get PPE for sacrifice (further suggesting it is just a visual stand-in).

I agree. If batteries can't be conjured, neither can this.

[Nightmask]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckSoDW2-wrc This has given one of my players ideas. He wants to play as a conjurer with all the skills for chemistry and create Thioacetone. The book seems to skip any mention of chemicals but any chemical could theoretically fall under the category of "objects". Needless to say, this is going to be incredibly disruptive in the group if it ever happens. What is the full ruling on this?

"Energy weapons, Vibro-Blades, most modern guns, grenades, rockets, computers, radios, E-clips, batteries, generators, engines, and similar complex or energy dependent devices are all examples of objects that CAN NOT be conjured."-WB16 pg83

I would have to say that the resulting materials he wants to create are covered by this. The Conjurer can't create batteries, which involve chemical reactions but are hardly complex/moving parts (aside from the electrons). Nor can they create grenades (chemical reaction). The same goes for rockets and engines (chemical reactions), no matter how simple. Though you can make old style revolvers and black powder guns, and bullets (just the projectile or projectile plus propellant?).

Now they could make containers/devices to handle the actual raw materials, or even the processed materials, but the materials itself would seem to be out.

From the OLD FAQ in the Cutting Room Floor (the NEW FAQ in the forums doesn’t address it)
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

According to above link #37: "The food will be filling, but not provide any nutrition unless the P.P.E. is spent for permanency." in regard to conjured food. So I would have to say that unless they are willing to spend the PPE for permanency it has no chance of working if I where to even allow it.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

Further more the second link #149: "They will look genuine, unless you decide the substance it is made out of is different." in relation to conjured items. So you can ultimately decide if the item created is the actual substance or a visual-stand-in. I would also checkout #127, basically you have to decide if the conjured materials are complex or simple enough. #109 doesn't really help, but might. #11 here definitely helps given you can't use conjured animals to get PPE for sacrifice (further suggesting it is just a visual stand-in).

It's quite explicit that you can't make batteries because they're considered complex devices NOT because chemical reactions are involved. With regards to food of course it won't provide nourishment if it's not permanent, because you can't possibly derive nourishment from something that doesn't actually remain in the body to nourish it. Drink a glass of water and have it vanish from your stomach of course it won't provide you any benefits, or from a ham sandwich, or from anything else.

[Bill]

I think the most effective counter argument would be that a person with the necessary degree of scientific expertise wouldn't be able to learn magic at all. Magic, even techno-wizardry, relies on symbolism and irrational associations that are incompatible with true science. The obvious hole in that argument is that techno-wizards have science and engineering skills, so either they're using them to complement magic or they've got them for no useful reason.

That said, I have no problem with the character being able to produce these effects. As has been pointed out, these substances can be had in the world in one form or another. So the character being able to conjure them saves me the trouble of describing a shopping trip every few sessions.

[ShadowLogan]

It's quite explicit that you can't make batteries because they're considered complex devices NOT because chemical reactions are involved. With regards to food of course it won't provide nourishment if it's not permanent, because you can't possibly derive nourishment from something that doesn't actually remain in the body to nourish it. Drink a glass of water and have it vanish from your stomach of course it won't provide you any benefits, or from a ham sandwich, or from anything else.

I agree they are considered complex devices, but I think they are considered complex devices because of the chemical reactions involved and not because of complex moving parts (or specialized parts) because a battery has no moving parts unless you count electrons, and any "specialized part" would be attainable easily enough.

If conjured food can not provide nourishment because it is not permanent, how can a conjured poison (or one derived from conjured products) do its job if it is not permanent? I can see how items/animals can do damage, but food nourishment is going to act in the same way a poison will, by chemical reaction.

[Illendaver]

It's quite explicit that you can't make batteries because they're considered complex devices NOT because chemical reactions are involved. With regards to food of course it won't provide nourishment if it's not permanent, because you can't possibly derive nourishment from something that doesn't actually remain in the body to nourish it. Drink a glass of water and have it vanish from your stomach of course it won't provide you any benefits, or from a ham sandwich, or from anything else.

I agree they are considered complex devices, but I think they are considered complex devices because of the chemical reactions involved and not because of complex moving parts (or specialized parts) because a battery has no moving parts unless you count electrons, and any "specialized part" would be attainable easily enough.

If conjured food can not provide nourishment because it is not permanent, how can a conjured poison (or one derived from conjured products) do its job if it is not permanent? I can see how items/animals can do damage, but food nourishment is going to act in the same way a poison will, by chemical reaction.

Because the poison will cause the damage once it is in your system. If it is removed two hours after the damage is caused (which for the sake of argument we will say took a full hour to circulate through the bloodstream enough to cause damage in the first place) then the damage still remains. If you were to remove the earlier mentioned ham sandwich after the chemical process of digestion happened in your stomach then it would get rid of any/all energy creating proteins that had already been processed by your stomach's enzymes and that your blood had begun to absorb, the shock of which could(?) kill someone.

However, the point is that the conjurer wants to create 1 chemical. They pointed out that conjurers can create black powder, which is a substance made up of several chemicals. And it burns/shoots. Why can't he make 1 other chemical if he has fulfilled all the previously stated requirements.

The short answer is because the amount of power abuse linked to that is only limited by his imagination and his knowledge. I don't want to punish a good idea, but I get the feeling there should be some sort of limit put in place on this. #127 helped a lot earlier (because I am sure that next he would like to point out that plutonium is an element of the periodic table, why can't I make that?) Thank you ShadowLogan.

[Nightmask]

It's quite explicit that you can't make batteries because they're considered complex devices NOT because chemical reactions are involved. With regards to food of course it won't provide nourishment if it's not permanent, because you can't possibly derive nourishment from something that doesn't actually remain in the body to nourish it. Drink a glass of water and have it vanish from your stomach of course it won't provide you any benefits, or from a ham sandwich, or from anything else.

I agree they are considered complex devices, but I think they are considered complex devices because of the chemical reactions involved and not because of complex moving parts (or specialized parts) because a battery has no moving parts unless you count electrons, and any "specialized part" would be attainable easily enough.

If conjured food can not provide nourishment because it is not permanent, how can a conjured poison (or one derived from conjured products) do its job if it is not permanent? I can see how items/animals can do damage, but food nourishment is going to act in the same way a poison will, by chemical reaction.

Because the poison will cause the damage once it is in your system. If it is removed two hours after the damage is caused (which for the sake of argument we will say took a full hour to circulate through the bloodstream enough to cause damage in the first place) then the damage still remains. If you were to remove the earlier mentioned ham sandwich after the chemical process of digestion happened in your stomach then it would get rid of any/all energy creating proteins that had already been processed by your stomach's enzymes and that your blood had begun to absorb, the shock of which could(?) kill someone.

However, the point is that the conjurer wants to create 1 chemical. They pointed out that conjurers can create black powder, which is a substance made up of several chemicals. And it burns/shoots. Why can't he make 1 other chemical if he has fulfilled all the previously stated requirements.

The short answer is because the amount of power abuse linked to that is only limited by his imagination and his knowledge. I don't want to punish a good idea, but I get the feeling there should be some sort of limit put in place on this. #127 helped a lot earlier (because I am sure that next he would like to point out that plutonium is an element of the periodic table, why can't I make that?) Thank you ShadowLogan.

Every class is limited by the imagination and knowledge of the player, that's a given, and some classes have far more options available to them than others. Conjurors have a range of limits on them to go along with those things they can do, can't really fault someone wanting to actually be creative and get full use out of the character by looking at what they can do and explore creative ways of doing things.

[Nightmask]

It's quite explicit that you can't make batteries because they're considered complex devices NOT because chemical reactions are involved. With regards to food of course it won't provide nourishment if it's not permanent, because you can't possibly derive nourishment from something that doesn't actually remain in the body to nourish it. Drink a glass of water and have it vanish from your stomach of course it won't provide you any benefits, or from a ham sandwich, or from anything else.

I agree they are considered complex devices, but I think they are considered complex devices because of the chemical reactions involved and not because of complex moving parts (or specialized parts) because a battery has no moving parts unless you count electrons, and any "specialized part" would be attainable easily enough.

If conjured food can not provide nourishment because it is not permanent, how can a conjured poison (or one derived from conjured products) do its job if it is not permanent? I can see how items/animals can do damage, but food nourishment is going to act in the same way a poison will, by chemical reaction.

What you want to consider the reason for it and the actual reason aren't the same thing, particularly considering you can create actual living things which most definitely have an astounding and uncountable number of chemical reactions involved in their function. As far as poison goes as already noted elsewhere once it does its damage it's not going to vanish just because the poison did, just like a knife wound isn't going to vanish just because the knife did, and food nourishment isn't going to work like that because it requires the molecules it's processed and digested to actually remain in the body to actually nourish you.

[Mack]

I was going to come out against a Conjurer making explosives, but after reviewing the OCC I found it's not as clear cut as I thought.

I'm going to cherry pick two items from the OCC description.

However, to conjure a revolver and bullets that will actually fire... requires the Conjurer to have an intimate knowledge of that device.

So if the Conjurer has 'intimate knowledge' of bullets, including their explosive powder, then he can make usable bullets.

But...

Limitations at Conjuring Objects:
- First and foremost...
- The conjurer may only create simple objects.

So a GM could conclude that higher power explosives (napalm, fusion blocks...) are too complex and violate the 'simple' rule. One could rule that SDC explosives are acceptable, but MDC ones are not.

Or, a GM could decide that explosives are OK, but difficult to create and require a lot of PPE. For comparison, 6 bullets contain very little explosive powder and require 15 PPE. So a stick of dynamite might require upwards of 50 PPE, thereby severely limiting how many the Conjurer can create (assuming he doesn't have a ready PPE source to compensate).

So I'm going to put this one firmly into the "GM's Call" category. If it unbalances your game, then don't allow it. If it fits, then let the Conjurer run free.

[Jefffar]

The issue I see is Napalm is a highly flamable, explosive liquid - conjuring itself is no problem, but you also need to have some means of safe storage until you are going to use it (because trying to carry it in your pocket is a bad idea) some means of delivering it to the target (because you probably don't want to be holding it when it goes off) and some means of setting it off at an appropriate time (because you would like to burn something with it).

The latter two requirements for using the napalm safely and effectively are the most likely to be either expensive to buy or difficult to conjur.

[Tyrael]

I don't know

[ShadowLogan]

particularly considering you can create actual living things which most definitely have an astounding and uncountable number of chemical reactions involved in their function.

I agree living things are highly complex (understatement) and depend on chemical reactions. However as the old FAQ shows, there might be a difference between a temporary and permanent creature that is conjured. A permanent creature requires the permanent loss of PPE and a minimum experience level, so the product of such a conjuring is already very different than a temporary construct and may explain why it can achieve the result (that or permanent items are really "teleported" for somewhere and temporary are more like mental projections since they wink out if the Conjurer losses consciousness).

As far as poison goes as already noted elsewhere once it does its damage it's not going to vanish just because the poison did, just like a knife wound isn't going to vanish just because the knife did, and food nourishment isn't going to work like that because it requires the molecules it's processed and digested to actually remain in the body to actually nourish you.

I agree a knife cut won't disappear when the blade does, but the blade doesn't require a chemical reaction on its part to work unlike a poison or nourishment. And the text is clear "don't require an active energy source as part of their construction, i.e. battery, E-Clip, electricity, gasoline, etc."- (WB16pg83).

You can not conjure gasoline. So you can not conjure Napalm, since gasoline (or its relatives) are involved. Nourishment would also fall under the "active energy source", and likely so do poisons.

Ultimately though this is a GMs call because of the vagueness of Conjuring magic in its description in failing to address likely sceneries like this for whatever reason. Now a Conjurer might be able to bypass these limitations on their "conjuration ability" by use of their available spell magic (which might have to be done with customized/"imported" spells of the type they are looking for) that involve creation.

[Tyrael]

particularly considering you can create actual living things which most definitely have an astounding and uncountable number of chemical reactions involved in their function.

I agree living things are highly complex (understatement) and depend on chemical reactions. However as the old FAQ shows, there might be a difference between a temporary and permanent creature that is conjured. A permanent creature requires the permanent loss of PPE and a minimum experience level, so the product of such a conjuring is already very different than a temporary construct and may explain why it can achieve the result (that or permanent items are really "teleported" for somewhere and temporary are more like mental projections since they wink out if the Conjurer losses consciousness).

As far as poison goes as already noted elsewhere once it does its damage it's not going to vanish just because the poison did, just like a knife wound isn't going to vanish just because the knife did, and food nourishment isn't going to work like that because it requires the molecules it's processed and digested to actually remain in the body to actually nourish you.

I agree a knife cut won't disappear when the blade does, but the blade doesn't require a chemical reaction on its part to work unlike a poison or nourishment. And the text is clear "don't require an active energy source as part of their construction, i.e. battery, E-Clip, electricity, gasoline, etc."- (WB16pg83).

You can not conjure gasoline. So you can not conjure Napalm, since gasoline (or its relatives) are involved. Nourishment would also fall under the "active energy source", and likely so do poisons.

Ultimately though this is a GMs call because of the vagueness of Conjuring magic in its description in failing to address likely sceneries like this for whatever reason. Now a Conjurer might be able to bypass these limitations on their "conjuration ability" by use of their available spell magic (which might have to be done with customized/"imported" spells of the type they are looking for) that involve creation.

Where does it say the item winks out if the Conjurer loses consciousness?

Where does it say The Conjuring can't make gasoline?

The book says that you cannot make energy dependent devices... Not that you can't make items that produce energy( This falls under the category of batteries)

The old FAQ does not specify why you don't gain nutrients from conjured food. It could be that the molecules that are absorbed are what this appears at the time limit.

As food passes through the GI tract, it mixes with digestive juices, causing large molecules of food to break down into smaller molecules. The body then absorbs these smaller molecules through the walls of the small intestine into the bloodstream, which delivers them to the rest of the body.Waste products of digestion pass through the large intestine and out of the body as a solid matter called stool.

The above is an excerpt from Medical website

[Nightmask]

particularly considering you can create actual living things which most definitely have an astounding and uncountable number of chemical reactions involved in their function.

I agree living things are highly complex (understatement) and depend on chemical reactions. However as the old FAQ shows, there might be a difference between a temporary and permanent creature that is conjured. A permanent creature requires the permanent loss of PPE and a minimum experience level, so the product of such a conjuring is already very different than a temporary construct and may explain why it can achieve the result (that or permanent items are really "teleported" for somewhere and temporary are more like mental projections since they wink out if the Conjurer losses consciousness).

Doesn't change the fact that the living creature is a highly complex organism driven by a variety of chemical reactions, nor is there any reason to think they aren't physical objects/beings where the only difference between temporary and permanent versions is the permanent version has had enough magical energy put into it to keep it intact rather than dissipating when the duration runs out.

As far as poison goes as already noted elsewhere once it does its damage it's not going to vanish just because the poison did, just like a knife wound isn't going to vanish just because the knife did, and food nourishment isn't going to work like that because it requires the molecules it's processed and digested to actually remain in the body to actually nourish you.

I agree a knife cut won't disappear when the blade does, but the blade doesn't require a chemical reaction on its part to work unlike a poison or nourishment. And the text is clear "don't require an active energy source as part of their construction, i.e. battery, E-Clip, electricity, gasoline, etc."- (WB16pg83).

You can not conjure gasoline. So you can not conjure Napalm, since gasoline (or its relatives) are involved. Nourishment would also fall under the "active energy source", and likely so do poisons.

Ultimately though this is a GMs call because of the vagueness of Conjuring magic in its description in failing to address likely sceneries like this for whatever reason. Now a Conjurer might be able to bypass these limitations on their "conjuration ability" by use of their available spell magic (which might have to be done with customized/"imported" spells of the type they are looking for) that involve creation.

You're way too hung up on the chemical reaction there, and there's no practical difference between injuring someone with a knife or injuring them with a poison, in both cases the injuring material breaks bonds and in both cases there's no reason whatsoever that the injuring material vanishing would cause those bonds to spontaneously reconnect. Stabbing someone is technically going to cause chemical reactions to occur as you tear cells apart, meanwhile a poison is going to cause a chemical reaction as it tears molecular bonds apart, and neither will reverse just because the cause went away.

Also as already noted by someone else where does it say you can't make gasoline? Also no nourishment is NOT an active energy source, nor are poisons and I've no idea how anyone could even remotely arrive at such conclusions. A battery qualifies as an active energy source because there's always an ongoing chemical reaction producing electrical energy at the poles, nourishment on the other hand is something your digestive system actively works on to convert it into usable energy and material, while poisons is a broad category of things that at their root interfere with various chemical reactions in the body or otherwise hinder the proper function of the body.

[ShadowLogan]

Where does it say the item winks out if the Conjurer loses consciousness?

Under Duration of Conjurings, Temporary on pg85 in WB16 (original/unrevised): "...Conjured objects and animals disappear when the character is knocked unconscious, falls alseep or is slain!"

Winksout (my term not the book) would be the same as disappear (book term), but it is clear that unless you make the item permanent, it only exists as long as the Conjurer is conscious.

Not that you can't make items that produce energy( This falls under the category of batteries)

Batteries though are specifically said not to be conjurable (pg83 WB16o just above "Limitations at Conjuring Objects" heading in the preceding paragraph). Batteries themselves are mechanically simple and a Conjurer should have no trouble making one, yet they do. The fact that they can not points to items that produce energy (which gasoline does).

The old FAQ does not specify why you don't gain nutrients from conjured food. It could be that the molecules that are absorbed are what this appears at the time limit.

I agree the old FAQ does not specific why you don't gain nutrients from conjured food. However the inability to use conjured items to produce energy for use is abundant, the only known way is black powder/bullets, and food could count as an energy source just like a generator, battery, or Eclip (all 3 can't be conjured).

In any case a Conjurer does not have to use their Conjuration ability to create food (specifically bread), water, milk, or wine (some might not be in Rifts, but from Palladium Fantasy). They can use regular magic spells for that (they can even purify spoiled food/water), something that they do have access to that would not be limited by their conjuration ability in question.

[Mack]

Where does it say the item winks out if the Conjurer loses consciousness?

Federation of Magic (Revised), page 85: "Conjured objects and animals disappear when the character is knocked unconscious, falls asleep or is slain!"

Where does it say The Conjuring can't make gasoline?

Chemicals (other than those implied to be within bullets) are not addressed either positively or negatively. Hence this discussion.

The book says that you cannot make energy dependent devices... Not that you can't make items that produce energy( This falls under the category of batteries)

Correct. Although most any generator will be a rather complex item and would be beyond a "simple" conjuring.

[Illendaver]

The book says that you cannot make energy dependent devices... Not that you can't make items that produce energy( This falls under the category of batteries)

Correct. Although most any generator will be a rather complex item and would be beyond a "simple" conjuring.

This brings up another problem. Conjurers begin with the Mechanical Engineering skill, which means they can repair or build ANY mechanical device. What is to stop a conjurer from conjuring the parts to a missile, manually putting them together, and then conjuring any of the nasty chemicals aforementioned in lieu of a warhead? Buying a rocket launcher would cost less than 20,000 credits and for the rocket itself(I assume fuel for a missile would be cheaper to buy than an actual missile) it should cost perhaps 500 credits worth of fuel and I am fairly certain that it could be put together within 30 minutes of work. Now we have a bazooka that shoots chemicals worse than napalm. All for roughly 75-90 PPE.

[Mack]

The book says that you cannot make energy dependent devices... Not that you can't make items that produce energy( This falls under the category of batteries)

Correct. Although most any generator will be a rather complex item and would be beyond a "simple" conjuring.

This brings up another problem. Conjurers begin with the Mechanical Engineering skill, which means they can repair or build ANY mechanical device. What is to stop a conjurer from conjuring the parts to a missile, manually putting them together, and then conjuring any of the nasty chemicals aforementioned in lieu of a warhead? Buying a rocket launcher would cost less than 20,000 credits and for the rocket itself(I assume fuel for a missile would be cheaper to buy than an actual missile) it should cost perhaps 500 credits worth of fuel and I am fairly certain that it could be put together within 30 minutes of work. Now we have a bazooka that shoots chemicals worse than napalm. All for roughly 75-90 PPE.

Personally, I think that would add up to more than the 75-90 PPE you estimate, but that's a GM Call.

And given that even a 10th level Conjurer will only have 123 PPE (on average) to work with I don't see him making more than one rocket (possibly two) at a time.

[Jefffar]

Like I said above, the other limitations on conjouring are going to make this a very expensive proposition to use effectively. Also, normal Napalm is either a high SDC, or low (like 1D4) MDC attack. So we won't be seeing a lot of in game utility out of this once the cost/benefit ratio is accounted for.

[Nightmask]

Not that you can't make items that produce energy( This falls under the category of batteries)

Batteries though are specifically said not to be conjurable (pg83 WB16o just above "Limitations at Conjuring Objects" heading in the preceding paragraph). Batteries themselves are mechanically simple and a Conjurer should have no trouble making one, yet they do. The fact that they can not points to items that produce energy (which gasoline does).

Those are unrelated items, because gasoline doesn't 'produce energy', gasoline is an otherwise inert molecule that only releases energy when caused to combust. Batteries on the other hand are undergoing a constant chemical reaction that's constantly making free electrons available at the negative end of the battery until a circuit is completed with the positive end causing them to flow. So you're arguing a fact that is not actually a fact.

[eliakon]

An interesting thought....
Since as I recall Conjured items disappear when destroyed....
Thus there would be no energy released when they 'burn' as that energy is part of the item itself....
...
Thus perhaps the reason you can not make fuels, or explosives, or batteries or the like...
is that chemical reactions simply destroys what you made for no result...

[Nightmask]

The book says that you cannot make energy dependent devices... Not that you can't make items that produce energy( This falls under the category of batteries)

Correct. Although most any generator will be a rather complex item and would be beyond a "simple" conjuring.

This brings up another problem. Conjurers begin with the Mechanical Engineering skill, which means they can repair or build ANY mechanical device. What is to stop a conjurer from conjuring the parts to a missile, manually putting them together, and then conjuring any of the nasty chemicals aforementioned in lieu of a warhead? Buying a rocket launcher would cost less than 20,000 credits and for the rocket itself(I assume fuel for a missile would be cheaper to buy than an actual missile) it should cost perhaps 500 credits worth of fuel and I am fairly certain that it could be put together within 30 minutes of work. Now we have a bazooka that shoots chemicals worse than napalm. All for roughly 75-90 PPE.

That's not any less likely to be able to do than anything else really, because someone with the relevant chemical engineering skills could purchase all the components necessary to make a variety of wicked things and make them quite easily and fit them into a warhead now. The only way to actually make that not possible is to not allow someone to have chemical engineering skills in the first place, everything else requires an implausible level of 'no you can't find that' GM obstructiveness which would hinder trust in the game and make things too adversarial.

Frankly it makes me wonder why I haven't noticed someone putting out the standard 'if they can do it then it can be done to them too' argument if it looks like it would be a problem. If the PC are throwing out VX nerve gas then they start finding themselves having to worry about being a target of it too, or dirty plutonium bombs (which mind you they can already make since radioactive materials are in the hands of everyone who has anything that runs off a nuclear power core like power armor or robot vehicles) or what have you.

[Nightmask]

An interesting thought....
Since as I recall Conjured items disappear when destroyed....
Thus there would be no energy released when they 'burn' as that energy is part of the item itself....
...
Thus perhaps the reason you can not make fuels, or explosives, or batteries or the like...
is that chemical reactions simply destroys what you made for no result...

Except there's no reason to think you can't make fuels, not without an explicit note saying something like what you say, that you could make it but derive no use from it.

[eliakon]

An interesting thought....
Since as I recall Conjured items disappear when destroyed....
Thus there would be no energy released when they 'burn' as that energy is part of the item itself....
...
Thus perhaps the reason you can not make fuels, or explosives, or batteries or the like...
is that chemical reactions simply destroys what you made for no result...

Except there's no reason to think you can't make fuels, not without an explicit note saying something like what you say, that you could make it but derive no use from it.

There is no reason to think you can either.
And that has nothing to do in the slightest with what I said at all does it.
I don't have to prove a negative for you here. I am offering a reasoned discussion. If you wish to troll go do it elsewhere.

[Jefffar]

Notches, down a couple please.

[eliakon]

The book already says that explosives can not be made and batteries can not be made.
By we can also infer that not every property of everything is preserved otherwise it would be simple for a single conjurer to vaporize a city (60 lbs of plutonium anyone?)
Additionally it is not even possible to make any conjuration that relies on gasoline or electro-chemical reactions.

Thus the reasoning is pretty sound that for what ever reason there is something about conjured material that prohibits from being used for its chemical properties.

My post was an examination of why that may be.
Since there really isn't much of anything to discuss on if it is.

[Blue_Lion]

An interesting thought....
Since as I recall Conjured items disappear when destroyed....
Thus there would be no energy released when they 'burn' as that energy is part of the item itself....
...
Thus perhaps the reason you can not make fuels, or explosives, or batteries or the like...
is that chemical reactions simply destroys what you made for no result...

Except there's no reason to think you can't make fuels, not without an explicit note saying something like what you say, that you could make it but derive no use from it.

There is no reason to think you can either.
And that has nothing to do in the slightest with what I said at all does it.
I don't have to prove a negative for you here. I am offering a reasoned discussion. If you wish to troll go do it elsewhere.

That is a long standing argument.
Side A says magic only magic has to say it can do something.
side B says magic does something unless it says they can not.

Both A and B are GM calls.

In this case the GM has posted looking for justification of a no. So he wants the why of side A.

[Tyrael]

Could it be that essentially the conjured items molecules have to be stable? That could explain batteries and some explosives

[Nightmask]

Could it be that essentially the conjured items molecules have to be stable? That could explain batteries and some explosives

I think that would be a position I'd learn towards, the matter just hasn't got the stability to function properly when created in a temporary fashion.

[ShadowLogan]

his brings up another problem. Conjurers begin with the Mechanical Engineering skill, which means they can repair or build ANY mechanical device. What is to stop a conjurer from conjuring the parts to a missile, manually putting them together, and then conjuring any of the nasty chemicals aforementioned in lieu of a warhead? Buying a rocket launcher would cost less than 20,000 credits and for the rocket itself(I assume fuel for a missile would be cheaper to buy than an actual missile) it should cost perhaps 500 credits worth of fuel and I am fairly certain that it could be put together within 30 minutes of work. Now we have a bazooka that shoots chemicals worse than napalm. All for roughly 75-90 PPE.

Really this is a potential problem with a lot of mage classes that can create items either by available spell/skill combos (most Invocation class can aquire the necessary spells to create materials, skills might be more limited) or ability (Eco-Wizard, Techno-Wizard). Still...

A variety of things actually can work to manage the situation:
-Duration of conjured items. You might conjurer it up, but unless you spend permanent PPE, it will only exist for a fixed amount of time. So you may conjurer it up, but may not actually be able to use it during the window of opportunity. Spending permanent PPE while an option, is not likely to be the go-to solution. Though using spell magic instead of conjurer ability one can get around this aspect, but will increase the time
-Skills. If Mechanical Engineer is all that is required, you wouldn't see skills like Weapons Engineer, Aircraft Mechanic, Auto-mechanic, Locksmith, etc. Without supporting skills, you might end up with a missile with poor performance (Weapons Engineer, and Aircraft Mechanic) even if other skills are present (like Chemistry or Demo skills), the warhead could be to heavy reducing range, or aerodynamics are poor reducing range, or the motor doesn't deliver enough thrust (reduced range). You would also need to make the skill checks, and given the duration limit could be seen as a rush job which will impose penalties
-You might also be optimistic in the assembly time, though they can rush the job it increases the chance of something going wrong along with the difficulty
-You might be generous with the PPE estimate (each component needs to be secured so you need some way to do that, I count: nose cone, body, 3+ fins, motor housing which is at least 2 pieces, tools if needed and that is just the missile, not counting the launcher which could be even more, then you have the rocket motor itself and warhead)
-As Mack alluded to the average PPE even at 10th level isn't alot (63 average for extra 9 levels, and 60 base at Level 1), unless you are dealing with one who has had lucky rolls each time and is at max, but that is unlikely. Sure they can use Ley Lines (but not other sources like people) to supplement their PPE, but Ley Lines are not every where.
-Size of the missile might require assistance to assemble the rocket, which can also influence the amount of time needed to assemble the various components
-Skill, PPE availability, and duration are all tied to the character's level, so this may not be viable until higher levels when all these factors are brought together

Those are unrelated items, because gasoline doesn't 'produce energy', gasoline is an otherwise inert molecule that only releases energy when caused to combust. Batteries on the other hand are undergoing a constant chemical reaction that's constantly making free electrons available at the negative end of the battery until a circuit is completed with the positive end causing them to flow. So you're arguing a fact that is not actually a fact.

Yes I agree there is a difference between gasoline and a battery on various levels, however both are used to produce energy via chemical reactions (albeit in different manner). E-Clips are also on that list of items you can't produce, which would be somewhere between battery and gasoline, Eclips store energy for on-demand use by all indications (they don't lose charge over time like a battery would if allowed to sit AFAIK). You can not produce grenades, which chemically work more like gasoline. You can not produce rockets, which would include the motor (which would be chemically closer to gasoline in terms of combustion). So yes there is amble evidence that you could not produce gasoline.

It is also pretty telling that when giving examples of items (not animals) that can be conjured via their ability, with maybe one exception (ball point pen, GM's call if ink is included as it is not mentioned) we don't see any liquids, gases or gel substance actually identified or in use with examples. As gasoline is a liquid...

[Mack]

Here's a few more to think about:

-- If a Conjurer creates a small log and tosses it onto the campfire, does it burn and give off heat? I'd say the answer is yes. And assuming it completely burned prior to the duration expiring, I'd say it was indistinguishable from a normal log.

-- If a Conjurer creates a wooden weapon, will it hurt a vampire? I'd say yes.

-- If a Conjurer creates a silver weapon, will it hurt a werewolf? Again, I'd say yes.

[ShadowLogan]

@Mack
I would agree with #2 and #3, their use as weapons seems to be well within the intent of the class ability.

However #1 I have to disagree with if using the Conjurer ability (and not via the Create Wood spell that is available to them as a selection starting at Level 2) as that would turn the wood into an energy dependent device/item much like a grenade, rocket (motor), battery, or Eclip IMHO.

[Tyrael]

@Mack
I would agree with #2 and #3, their use as weapons seems to be well within the intent of the class ability.

However #1 I have to disagree with if using the Conjurer ability (and not via the Create Wood spell that is available to them as a selection starting at Level 2) as that would turn the wood into an energy dependent device/item much like a grenade, rocket (motor), battery, or Eclip IMHO.

What is the difference between a log in a fire and gunpowder(which can be conjured)? Both burn produce heat and energy

[Blue_Lion]

Here's a few more to think about:

-- If a Conjurer creates a small log and tosses it onto the campfire, does it burn and give off heat? I'd say the answer is yes. And assuming it completely burned prior to the duration expiring, I'd say it was indistinguishable from a normal log.

-- If a Conjurer creates a wooden weapon, will it hurt a vampire? I'd say yes.

-- If a Conjurer creates a silver weapon, will it hurt a werewolf? Again, I'd say yes.

1. Is it wood or just a construct? If it is magical construct then it may be no. I would rule that the constructs are made of magic force and not real items.

2. No it is not real wood.

3. no it is not real silver.

[Library Ogre]

You know, while napalm may be too chemically complex, a few kilos of pure Francium won't be, and will have pretty impressive effects...

[eliakon]

Hence my thought that perhaps stuff like "acids, batteries, fuels, nuclear materials, etc" all fail because they disappear as they break.
As each atom of conjured francium decays it, and all its parts (like radiation), disappears. The burned log would do the same thing (taking the heat stored in its chemical bonds with it).

[42dragon]

Here's a few more to think about:

-- If a Conjurer creates a small log and tosses it onto the campfire, does it burn and give off heat? I'd say the answer is yes. And assuming it completely burned prior to the duration expiring, I'd say it was indistinguishable from a normal log.

-- If a Conjurer creates a wooden weapon, will it hurt a vampire? I'd say yes.

-- If a Conjurer creates a silver weapon, will it hurt a werewolf? Again, I'd say yes.

1. I don't know.
2. No
3. No

Basically point 2 and 3 lead you down the road that they can create real items with specific properties. It has to be real wood or real silver to hurt those creatures. Why not just create silver bars, or gold bars, or diamonds, or plutonium, or gantrium, or xanthine, or unobtanium? I know the argument is the book says "no" you can't make some of these items specifically. But that is why these arguments keep coming up. It doesn't make sense that some of these things can be created and others can't. Many are very similar to each other and all can be simple objects (a brick or bar). And since the list of banned items is not all inclusive it will always be a GM call. Try to be consistent when making the call for your games, please.