Cost of a VF-1

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you had to set a price for a VF-1J in a US dollar amount where would you set the price?

[ShadowLogan]

Well using the Heroes Unlimited (2e) Robot Construction Rules I get a rough cost of $21.2 million (using 2E VF-1J as baseline). This is without cost of armor and some features are approximated and might need additional tuning (potentially sending the price higher). I used a vehicle mode, then gave it limbs and numerous jointlocking/rotation points to accommodate transformation in addition to various selections, some of which are approximated.

In Real Life I suspect the unit cost would be closer to a billion dollars (current year) if not more, the cost might be higher or lower depending on production run size.

[Chronicler]

I would figure a billion too, or somewhere up to or beyond the F-35.

[Seto Kaiba]

If you had to set a price for a VF-1J in a US dollar amount where would you set the price?

I'd roll with the per-unit cost given in the old Macross Journal Extra: VF-1 Valkyrie Special Edition "Sky Angels" book... that is, IIRC, the only time that one of Macross's creators cited a specific unit price for the fighter.[sup]1[/sup] Every other source for Macross's original series that I have gives the cost only in relative terms, as "X many times more than the standard Destroid".

$126 million per aircraft at the start of mass production, comparable to the cost of a 5th Generation jet fighter today.

(The development cost for the Valkyrie program was given as $50 billion.)

In the Macross universe, that cost went down after the First Space War, probably thanks to factory satellites, such that a VF-1 was something a civilian could conceivably purchase in the 2040's.






1. The exact text on page 14 of the aforementioned book is: 量産開始時点での開発費総額は約500億ドル, 機体単価は1億2600万ドル
Which translates: "Development costs at the start of mass-production time total about $50 billion, the aircraft unit price is $126 million." There is more text in that sentence, but it's only a parenthetical note that the Valkyrie's $126 million per unit price is just about 20 times what the typical Destroid costs.

For those wondering about the numbers, 億 is "One Hundred Million" and 万 is "Ten Thousand". 500億 is 500 100-millions or 50 billion, and 1億2600万 is 100 million 2600 ten-thousands or 126 million.

[The Artist Formerly]

If you had to set a price for a VF-1J in a US dollar amount where would you set the price?

I'd roll with the per-unit cost given in the old Macross Journal Extra: VF-1 Valkyrie Special Edition "Sky Angels" book... that is, IIRC, the only time that one of Macross's creators cited a specific unit price for the fighter.[sup]1[/sup] Every other source for Macross's original series that I have gives the cost only in relative terms, as "X many times more than the standard Destroid".

$126 million per aircraft at the start of mass production, comparable to the cost of a 5th Generation jet fighter today.

(The development cost for the Valkyrie program was given as $50 billion.)

In the Macross universe, that cost went down after the First Space War, probably thanks to factory satellites, such that a VF-1 was something a civilian could conceivably purchase in the 2040's.






1. The exact text on page 14 of the aforementioned book is: 量産開始時点での開発費総額は約500億ドル, 機体単価は1億2600万ドル
Which translates: "Development costs at the start of mass-production time total about $50 billion, the aircraft unit price is $126 million." There is more text in that sentence, but it's only a parenthetical note that the Valkyrie's $126 million per unit price is just about 20 times what the typical Destroid costs.

For those wondering about the numbers, 億 is "One Hundred Million" and 万 is "Ten Thousand". 500億 is 500 100-millions or 50 billion, and 1億2600万 is 100 million 2600 ten-thousands or 126 million.

That seems about right. The hyper advanced technology that goes into the construction of the fighter would be offset by the hyper advanced technology that went into constructing the tools and assembly lines to build the fighter. CNC technology dates back the the second world war, forget war machines, inject robotechnology into that kind of deal and see what you get.

Our perspective is front loaded, the vast majority of screen time is devoted to watching combat systems and hair care products in action. When we do see civilian systems, it's used to juxtaposition violence with the ruination of life, so it looks like a house or event we the viewer might live in or attend, or because Rick or Dana have come up with a novel way of smashing it up with a combat system. The RT universe should be full of RTech crammed into every orifice until it's spilling out.

On that note, some what tangentially, how much did it cost to develop hair gel that repels helmet hair 100% of the time? And is it flammable?

[glitterboy2098]

actually the spin-off tech of robotechnology for civilian applications is an interesting thought.. we see some pretty darn advanced computer tech for example (advanced robotics, combat computers, etc. plus the mobile vending machines and the like), though obviously the use of said tech is more 1980's (computers are less prevalent with the common citizen, interfaces are still kinda clunky, etc) we also know they have fairly high bandwidth wireless data transfer (the robot VIDEO payphones!)

so i would wonder whether the world of robotech has the kinds of processing power we do today, including things like ultra-compact computers.. and just without the kind of consumerism focus that produced the modern ideas of smartphones and tablets.

i mean, the first PDA's caught on in the early 1990's. by 1999 they had already gotten early versions of touch screens (stylus based), were starting to have early wireless options, and a lot of "apps" (as we know them now) for business and the like. you even had the military starting to invest in them.

so i wonder if the UEDF of macross had access to hardware similar to blackberry type PDA's or early Tablets. stuff that can compete with the real world 2010's stuff in performance, but is just bulkier in aesthetics and lacking in the variety of apps we have IRL.

[The Artist Formerly]

actually the spin-off tech of robotechnology for civilian applications is an interesting though.. we see some pretty darn advanced computer tech for example (advanced robotics, combat computers, etc. plus the mobile vending machines and the like), though obviously the use of said tech is more 1980's (computers are less prevalent with the common citizen, interfaces are still kinda clunky, etc) we also know they have fairly high bandwidth wireless data transfer (the robot VIDEO payphones!)

so i would wonder whether the world of robotech has the kinds of processing power we do today, including things like ultra-compact computers.. and just without the kind of consumerism focus that produced the modern ideas of smartphones and tablets.

i mean, the first PDA's caught on in the early 1990's. by 1999 they had already gotten early versions of touch screens (stylus based), were starting to have early wireless options, and a lot of "apps" (as we know them now) for business and the like. you even had the military starting to invest in them.

so i wonder if the UEDF of macross had access to hardware similar to blackberry type PDA's or early Tablets. stuff that can compete with the real world 2010's stuff in performance, but is just bulkier in aesthetics and lacking in the variety of apps we have IRL.

Yep. The sudden injection of super computing abilities it must take to make such complex machines work into civilian life would have been both staggering potent as well as extremely lucrative.

I think battery power density and related weight would be the dominating factor for most portable applications, along with heat management.

[glitterboy2098]

hardware would certainly advance pretty quick. i doubt software would have advanced all that quick though. you'd get some improvements in programming language and stuff just from the reverse engineering of the alien software, but odds are that they'd still be stuck in the "early Windows" age of software. resource intensive, with less than ideal system interfaces, etc.

and even in hardware, you'd probably have some missing bits.. heck, they'd still not have widespread USB's unless the UEG decided to standardize computer connections tech.. (USB 1.0 didn't shop up till 1996, and IRL didn't really catch on till the early 2000's. and you didn't see it become ubiquitous until the late 2000's with USB 2.0))

Well using the Heroes Unlimited (2e) Robot Construction Rules I get a rough cost of $21.2 million (using 2E VF-1J as baseline). This is without cost of armor and some features are approximated and might need additional tuning (potentially sending the price higher). I used a vehicle mode, then gave it limbs and numerous jointlocking/rotation points to accommodate transformation in addition to various selections, some of which are approximated.

In Real Life I suspect the unit cost would be closer to a billion dollars (current year) if not more, the cost might be higher or lower depending on production run size.

AUGG has an actual system to allow for transforming super-vehicles. the frame reconstruction system. basically you buy however many frames you need to cover the modes, and then pay the extra price of the system. this would let you do it as a Jet frame and a giant humanoid frame, plus the FRS and whatever systems you include. since you have to pay for the speed modes for each frame seperately the price could get quite high (the Mach 5 speed in fighter mode would get really high)

[Seto Kaiba]

That seems about right. The hyper advanced technology that goes into the construction of the fighter would be offset by the hyper advanced technology that went into constructing the tools and assembly lines to build the fighter. CNC technology dates back the the second world war, forget war machines, inject robotechnology into that kind of deal and see what you get.

Pretty much, yeah... though the implications of that are much broader in Macross than they are in Robotech.

Our perspective is front loaded, the vast majority of screen time is devoted to watching combat systems and hair care products in action. When we do see civilian systems, it's used to juxtaposition violence with the ruination of life, so it looks like a house or event we the viewer might live in or attend, or because Rick or Dana have come up with a novel way of smashing it up with a combat system. The RT universe should be full of RTech crammed into every orifice until it's spilling out.

In Robotech, the reverse-engineering of alien technology and examination of its potential applications was done in secret by a clique of "military scientists" on Macross Island... sort of like what conspiracy theorists think is done at Area 51. Even after the 1st Robotech War, that same handful of scientists (Cochrane, Lang, Zand, etc.) seem to have a near-monopoly on the development and implementation of robotechnology even if they don't fully understand it themselves. With that in mind, it's not surprising that we're shown very little civilian robotechnology.

In Macross, the alien ship's overtechnology was examined and reverse-engineered by a dedicated research institute jointly run by the major players in the nascent UN Government (the US, Britain, France, Germany, Russia, and Japan) and development of new applications was being done by companies all over the world. Civilian applications were pretty low-key prior to the First Space War, like the auto and aircraft industries abandonment of fossil fuels. It was after the war that overtechnology started to insinuate itself into every aspect of civilian life via the rebuilding of Earth's annihilated infrastructure... it's in the late 2010's and beyond that stuff like civilian fold-capable spacecraft, phones capable of interplanetary video calls, ubiquitous holographic technology, etc. come into use.

The other two shows had even less of a technological leg-up to start... helped not at all by Southern Cross's humanity starting over on Liberte and Glorie after a nuclear holocaust, and MOSPEADA's Earth having been little more advanced than our own at the time the Inbit invaded and knocked its tech level back to pre-spaceflight levels (with the advanced technology being stuff which Mars Colony developed in the 30 years since).

On that note, some what tangentially, how much did it cost to develop hair gel that repels helmet hair 100% of the time? And is it flammable?

Amusingly, the Macross the First manga suggests that Hikaru's 'do is more on the order of a permanent case of helmet hair... which is not altogether surprising for a kid who spent most of his life in the cockpit.

[The Artist Formerly]

Pretty much, yeah... though the implications of that are much broader in Macross than they are in Robotech.

In Robotech, the reverse-engineering of alien technology and examination of its potential applications was done in secret by a clique of "military scientists" on Macross Island... sort of like what conspiracy theorists think is done at Area 51. Even after the 1st Robotech War, that same handful of scientists (Cochrane, Lang, Zand, etc.) seem to have a near-monopoly on the development and implementation of robotechnology even if they don't fully understand it themselves. With that in mind, it's not surprising that we're shown very little civilian robotechnology.

In Macross, the alien ship's overtechnology was examined and reverse-engineered by a dedicated research institute jointly run by the major players in the nascent UN Government (the US, Britain, France, Germany, Russia, and Japan) and development of new applications was being done by companies all over the world. Civilian applications were pretty low-key prior to the First Space War, like the auto and aircraft industries abandonment of fossil fuels. It was after the war that overtechnology started to insinuate itself into every aspect of civilian life via the rebuilding of Earth's annihilated infrastructure... it's in the late 2010's and beyond that stuff like civilian fold-capable spacecraft, phones capable of interplanetary video calls, ubiquitous holographic technology, etc. come into use.

The other two shows had even less of a technological leg-up to start... helped not at all by Southern Cross's humanity starting over on Liberte and Glorie after a nuclear holocaust, and MOSPEADA's Earth having been little more advanced than our own at the time the Inbit invaded and knocked its tech level back to pre-spaceflight levels (with the advanced technology being stuff which Mars Colony developed in the 30 years since).

Amusingly, the Macross the First manga suggests that Hikaru's 'do is more on the order of a permanent case of helmet hair... which is not altogether surprising for a kid who spent most of his life in the cockpit.

I don't know who Cocrane or Zand are, however, there is just no way such developments can be plausibly developed by a handful of people, no matter how smart they were. Research and development take staffing, and to develop such devices on such a scale (just the physical mass of a destroid for example) would have had to have taken a hundred people just to work out locomotion of one of these walking giants. Plus a development team for each robotech weapon system. These things work in hard vacuum, so you need a team to test all of that, and another to develop the material science for all of that. Most of the guys who are doing this material science testing, work they aren't Phds or even engineers, they are guys with two year manufacturing degrees or the military versions of same. As development projects get wrapped or cancelled, those people will take what they know to their next job. That's just how these things work.

And I would still maintain that Rick was using protoculture infused shampoo. That or some sort of blast hardened hair gel.

[Jefffar]

Thomas Edison had a large staff who worked for him creating many if the things he is credited with inventing. Lead scientists tend to get the glory while their long suffering assistants are forgotten.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't know who Cocrane or Zand are,

Cocrane is one of the scientists from TRM saga animation who appears in later works.

Zand may be in the series (TMS, IINM maybe the "officer" Rick Hunter gets into it with about humananity's warlike nature), but is most commonly known for being in the Novels (his arc helps pad out 2RW books*), Prelude (he is here, and both seen and heard as part of Edwards faction).

Spoiler:

by the end of the arc Zand gets turned into a giant Flower of Life speciman, is one of two humans to take a Protoculture Mind Boost (other is Lang), and is the head of a secret "cult" involving the FoL, also "assisted" the Masters in a "prequel" book

And I would still maintain that Rick was using protoculture infused shampoo. That or some sort of blast hardened hair gel.

Nah, the are all bald (maybe even misshapen heads), and have really good body paint on to give them the illusion of hair.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't know who Cocrane or Zand are, however, there is just no way such developments can be plausibly developed by a handful of people, no matter how smart they were.

Unfortunately, that's the explanation that Robotech went with... that Earth's robotechnology was reverse-engineered in secret on Macross Island by this handful of super-genius tech-savants who, like engineers in Star Trek, appear to have had an engineering education that covers practically any discipline imaginable and do everything themselves. The novels and a handful of the old comics tried to attribute this to one or more of them having had their intelligence artificially boosted by an accident involving the operational computers and/or protoculture matrices in Zor's battlefortress shortly after the crash.

Some of them are shown having a handful of assistants, but the stories are always pretty definite that it's Lang, Zand, Cochrane, etc. who do everything and that the rest is borderline unintelligible to the laymen. Louie Nichols was one of those few assistants starting in the Masters Saga and ending in Prelude when he found himself drafted by Vince Grant to be the Icarus's chief engineer (that being the point where he turned into an expy of Geordi LaForge from Star Trek: the Next Generation).

(It's kind of funny how they made so much out of a character who, in Macross, was so minor he didn't merit a name... only in Macross the First did an analogous but more important character get a name, Major Gina Bartolo, the SDF-1's chief engineer.)

Research and development take staffing, and to develop such devices on such a scale (just the physical mass of a destroid for example) would have had to have taken a hundred people just to work out locomotion of one of these walking giants.

True, it works that way in the real world... and, indeed, in the original Macross, MOSPEADA, and probably Southern Cross as well. Robotech just has kind of a Star Trek-esque strained relationship with the practicalities of R&D, as in that version of the story all of the R&D and a fair bit of the testing was done in secret on Macross Island and the end result simply mass-produced elsewhere.

Macross throws in some nods to various influential project leads, most of whom are named for influential people in the original show's development, but they're always presented as merely project leads... like Colonel Chris J. Takatoku (named for the Takatoku toy company who made the original VF-1 toys) and Dr. H. Takachihofu (named for Haruka Takachiho, the pen name of Studio Nue's co-founder Kimiyoshi Takekawa, creator of Crusher Joe and Dirty Pair), both of whom were credited in their respective timelines as "Father of the Variable Fighter".

[The Artist Formerly]

I don't know who Cocrane or Zand are,

Cocrane is one of the scientists from TRM saga animation who appears in later works.

Zand may be in the series (TMS, IINM maybe the "officer" Rick Hunter gets into it with about humananity's warlike nature), but is most commonly known for being in the Novels (his arc helps pad out 2RW books*), Prelude (he is here, and both seen and heard as part of Edwards faction).

Spoiler:

by the end of the arc Zand gets turned into a giant Flower of Life speciman, is one of two humans to take a Protoculture Mind Boost (other is Lang), and is the head of a secret "cult" involving the FoL, also "assisted" the Masters in a "prequel" book

Okay.

I don't know what TRM, TMS and IINM stand for. I'm going to guess that first one is the Robotech Masters, then Macross Saga, and In Isleta New Mexico, which had the best Robotech animation of all.

And I would still maintain that Rick was using protoculture infused shampoo. That or some sort of blast hardened hair gel.

Nah, the are all bald (maybe even misshapen heads), and have really good body paint on to give them the illusion of hair.[/quote]

I can get with that. I could totally see Sterling using spray on toupee.

[The Artist Formerly]

I don't know who Cocrane or Zand are, however, there is just no way such developments can be plausibly developed by a handful of people, no matter how smart they were.

Unfortunately, that's the explanation that Robotech went with... that Earth's robotechnology was reverse-engineered in secret on Macross Island by this handful of super-genius tech-savants who, like engineers in Star Trek, appear to have had an engineering education that covers practically any discipline imaginable and do everything themselves. The novels and a handful of the old comics tried to attribute this to one or more of them having had their intelligence artificially boosted by an accident involving the operational computers and/or protoculture matrices in Zor's battlefortress shortly after the crash.

Some of them are shown having a handful of assistants, but the stories are always pretty definite that it's Lang, Zand, Cochrane, etc. who do everything and that the rest is borderline unintelligible to the laymen. Louie Nichols was one of those few assistants starting in the Masters Saga and ending in Prelude when he found himself drafted by Vince Grant to be the Icarus's chief engineer (that being the point where he turned into an expy of Geordi LaForge from Star Trek: the Next Generation).

(It's kind of funny how they made so much out of a character who, in Macross, was so minor he didn't merit a name... only in Macross the First did an analogous but more important character get a name, Major Gina Bartolo, the SDF-1's chief engineer.)

Research and development take staffing, and to develop such devices on such a scale (just the physical mass of a destroid for example) would have had to have taken a hundred people just to work out locomotion of one of these walking giants.

True, it works that way in the real world... and, indeed, in the original Macross, MOSPEADA, and probably Southern Cross as well. Robotech just has kind of a Star Trek-esque strained relationship with the practicalities of R&D, as in that version of the story all of the R&D and a fair bit of the testing was done in secret on Macross Island and the end result simply mass-produced elsewhere.

Macross throws in some nods to various influential project leads, most of whom are named for influential people in the original show's development, but they're always presented as merely project leads... like Colonel Chris J. Takatoku (named for the Takatoku toy company who made the original VF-1 toys) and Dr. H. Takachihofu (named for Haruka Takachiho, the pen name of Studio Nue's co-founder Kimiyoshi Takekawa, creator of Crusher Joe and Dirty Pair), both of whom were credited in their respective timelines as "Father of the Variable Fighter".

While I can appreciate your translation of the story as written, I can't accept that story as an element in game. So I'm going to reject your reality and substitute my own.

@ Drew, if you were to use what Seto explains, and he seems to know what he's talking about, then you might cut the prices by about 15%. However if you're working around a player who's angling price tags of fighters, I doubt s/he'll buy that. Such a thing escapes even the plausible-Impossible arc. In such manufacturing undertakings, labor is a major driving element of the costs of such things.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't know what TRM, TMS and IINM stand for. I'm going to guess that first one is the Robotech Masters, then Macross Saga, and In Isleta New Mexico, which had the best Robotech animation of all.

... you were good up to that last one, If I'm Not Mistaken...

While I can appreciate your translation of the story as written, I can't accept that story as an element in game. So I'm going to reject your reality and substitute my own.

Oh believe me, if I ever ran a Robotech game again (I prefer using the RPG as a starting point for OSM-based games) I would make the same reality-substitution you are. I've always felt the "a handful of super-scientists did everything" bit was a terrible and terribly unrealistic idea, which crossed the line into ridiculous in the novelization of the aborted Robotech II: the Sentinels arc and the canon Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles comic... in which, respectively, Dr. Lang revealed that protoculture was The Force for all practical intents and purposes, and the UEEF couldn't make its own Shadow Fighters because the one person who knew how shadow device work did a runner with the renegade General Edwards.

[eliakon]

Having watched the animation.....
...I don't recall where it says who did all the research. Can some one tell me which episode has them say that there were no design teams, no research teams, no projects or institutes and just a handful of Omni-disciplinary experts?

[The Artist Formerly]

I don't know what TRM, TMS and IINM stand for. I'm going to guess that first one is the Robotech Masters, then Macross Saga, and In Isleta New Mexico, which had the best Robotech animation of all.

... you were good up to that last one, If I'm Not Mistaken...

While I can appreciate your translation of the story as written, I can't accept that story as an element in game. So I'm going to reject your reality and substitute my own.

Oh believe me, if I ever ran a Robotech game again (I prefer using the RPG as a starting point for OSM-based games) I would make the same reality-substitution you are. I've always felt the "a handful of super-scientists did everything" bit was a terrible and terribly unrealistic idea, which crossed the line into ridiculous in the novelization of the aborted Robotech II: the Sentinels arc and the canon Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles comic... in which, respectively, Dr. Lang revealed that protoculture was The Force for all practical intents and purposes, and the UEEF couldn't make its own Shadow Fighters because the one person who knew how shadow device work did a runner with the renegade General Edwards.

These are not the fighters you are looking for. *waves hand*

[ShadowLogan]

I don't know what TRM, TMS and IINM stand for. I'm going to guess that first one is the Robotech Masters, then Macross Saga, and In Isleta New Mexico, which had the best Robotech animation of all.

Common Robotech short-hand for individual arcs
TRM = The Robotech Masters
TMS = The Macross Saga
NG/TNG = New Generation/The New Generation
TSC = The Shadow Chronicles

IINM = If I'm Not Mistaken, this is common internet short-hand in my experience.

Having watched the animation.....
...I don't recall where it says who did all the research. Can some one tell me which episode has them say that there were no design teams, no research teams, no projects or institutes and just a handful of Omni-disciplinary experts?

That's because it isn't there in the 85ep, unless you count Zor (who is said to be responsible), but Zor isn't Terran (or even technically alive) and not likely what you are looking for given context. I'm not even sure it is part of the Sentinels OVA or TSC OVA. The post-2001 canon comics come close IMHO, but even they have teams at the project level.

[guardiandashi]

I don't know what TRM, TMS and IINM stand for. I'm going to guess that first one is the Robotech Masters, then Macross Saga, and In Isleta New Mexico, which had the best Robotech animation of all.

Common Robotech short-hand for individual arcs
TRM = The Robotech Masters
TMS = The Macross Saga
NG/TNG = New Generation/The New Generation
TSC = The Shadow Chronicles

IINM = If I'm Not Mistaken, this is common internet short-hand in my experience.

Having watched the animation.....
...I don't recall where it says who did all the research. Can some one tell me which episode has them say that there were no design teams, no research teams, no projects or institutes and just a handful of Omni-disciplinary experts?

That's because it isn't there in the 85ep, unless you count Zor (who is said to be responsible), but Zor isn't Terran (or even technically alive) and not likely what you are looking for given context. I'm not even sure it is part of the Sentinels OVA or TSC OVA. The post-2001 canon comics come close IMHO, but even they have teams at the project level.

I know that Lang was given most/all of the credit for the vast majority of the stuff developed on macross Island in robotech. I am not 100% sure where that attribution came from, weather it was something like a throw away line in the show, or weather it came from the novelization (rather likely it was the novelization) anyway as I remember it, he was a scientific genius involved in the early or initial exploration of the SDF-1 after it crashed on the island, he somehow got "Zapped" by something protocultury (I want to say it was a learning/training console) which 1 boosted his intelligence, and 2 implanted a lot of basic understanding of robotechnology principles to him. he then used that information to adapt technology and /or robotech systems in order to use earth resources/technology.

one of the key principles of "protoculture robotechnology technology" in the whole robotech series is that "protoculture" makes tech items in a lot of ways act as if they are in some ways "alive" having vehicles able to reconfigure themselves while in use, intelligently discard damaged/destroyed parts enhanced response times, better response to control systems etc.

one example was (I think it was in the novelization) that they were using a recon drone during the initial investigation, it gets "close" to a hole in the SDF-1 and stops working,,, a few minutes later if someone had examined the circuit board inside an access panel they would have seen the chips literally moving around on the circuit board to make it "more effective/more efficient" stuff like that.

[ShadowLogan]

@guardiandashi
That is true for the novel version IINM, but what was asked was for the animated version. The Novel version adds and changes things that are not present in the animated version, even going off of the Legacy version and not a more recent remastered version(s?). I do not wish to sidetrack the discussion beyond stating that what happens in the novels does not automatically happen in the animated version (for all practical purposes the novels, and some other older products, should be viewed as an alternate universe from the animated & current one). If you've ever seen the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" and read the novel is a good analogy here, both have lots of differences between them, even its sequel 2010. Or various incarnations of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (BBC mini-series, Hollywood movie, Book, Book-on-tape, likely the Radio show and computer game to but I am not familiar with these last two) might even be better.

[glitterboy2098]

I know that Lang was given most/all of the credit for the vast majority of the stuff developed on macross Island in robotech. I am not 100% sure where that attribution came from, weather it was something like a throw away line in the show, or weather it came from the novelization (rather likely it was the novelization) anyway as I remember it, he was a scientific genius involved in the early or initial exploration of the SDF-1 after it crashed on the island, he somehow got "Zapped" by something protocultury (I want to say it was a learning/training console) which 1 boosted his intelligence, and 2 implanted a lot of basic understanding of robotechnology principles to him. he then used that information to adapt technology and /or robotech systems in order to use earth resources/technology.

as pointed out, this is only true in the novels, which are not official continuity anymore.

the show itself indicates nothing regarding the macross period (and in the later periods all we get is references to organization based engineering/development groups. like the ASC's "protoengineering" and their R&D program that snatched up Louie's "pupil pistol" to upgrade the hovertank's targeting systems)

the canon comics however suggest that it is a quite large program. with research and development occurring all over the world, and even at the based built on the other worlds, like mars.

also, Lang is presented as not a major player. he seems to be part of the group helping to rebuild the SDF-1, but we see a bunch of other german scientists working on the VF-1, and the Destroids were developed entirely elsewhere in the world, with Lan not even involved.

nor is Lang apparently involved with the development of the Grand Cannon technology or reflex furnaces (though one of the engineers involved in reflex furnace development, a certain Karl Riber on Mars, evidently does correspond and keep up with Lang regarding gravity control technologies.. suggesting that everyone involved in reverse engineering the alien tech has access to at least the research papers if not the results of application projects)

one of the key principles of "protoculture robotechnology technology" in the whole robotech series is that "protoculture" makes tech items in a lot of ways act as if they are in some ways "alive" having vehicles able to reconfigure themselves while in use, intelligently discard damaged/destroyed parts enhanced response times, better response to control systems etc.

again, this is only true in the novels. by current Continuity protoculture is just an alien fuel that generates a lot of power, which allows some fairly impressive technology. Mecha and the like are just the application of advances in materials science, computer technology, user interfaces, soft AI, etc. technologies earth obtained by studying the alien systems of the same type aboard the crashed ship.

heck, HG even decided to downplay protoculture's role in macross saga by giving earth fusion technologies (which given the lack of information they had on it during that part of the show, and the logistical improbabilities of defending earth with only the limited (known) PC supply on the fortress, makes some sense)

one example was (I think it was in the novelization) that they were using a recon drone during the initial investigation, it gets "close" to a hole in the SDF-1 and stops working,,, a few minutes later if someone had examined the circuit board inside an access panel they would have seen the chips literally moving around on the circuit board to make it "more effective/more efficient" stuff like that.

again, this is only in the comics and old de-canonized spinoff comics.

seriously, stop assuming the novels and old de-canonized comics are in any way indicative of the setting.. they never have been due to all the changes those writers made to shoehorn their own ideas (like rearranging circuitboards and supernatural powers for protoculture) into the world actually depicted in the show. it never fit properly back then, requiring entire swaths of the show to be rewritten or ignored because it conflcited with the stuff those writers wanted to cram in.

this is the big reason HG junked all that stuff in favor of the new continuity.. one that actually follows the show rather than tossing the show out.

[Bonkers]

Any body noticed that the S.D.F. one had fabrication facilities on board? How much of the cost would be negated?

[The Artist Formerly]

Any body noticed that the S.D.F. one had fabrication facilities on board? How much of the cost would be negated?

Hehe, well in that case we've moved from capitalism to fascism. While in space, those facilities are run by the RDF, using whatever resources they can scrounge. But the soldiers working the machines are paid in credits that are worth exactly whatever their rations are issued are valued at to someone else. This is entirely a closed system with everything being worth whatever Gloval's administration says it is. Once they get back to earth, we go back to where were started.

[Seto Kaiba]

as pointed out, this is only true in the novels, which are not official continuity anymore.

The part about him having received a boosted mind or having had knowledge downloaded directly into his head isn't canon... but the bit about the technology being developed in secret by a small number of techno-savants is still canon, and a key part of the lead-up to Shadow Chronicles.

the canon comics however suggest that it is a quite large program. with research and development occurring all over the world, and even at the based built on the other worlds, like mars.

Quite the opposite, in fact... the comics suggest that things are being built or tested in other parts of the world, but the only hint of a research and development program occurring off Macross Island is Project Excalibur. The stuff that we're shown being built or tested outside the island seems to mostly be stuff like spaceships and space fighters that couldn't be physically built there, or stuff that was too dangerous (politically or otherwise) to test on Earth like reflex warheads and reflex furnaces.

What we're shown in From the Stars is the same three "military scientists" apparently overseeing every aspect of the Project Valkyrie program except the menial labor... they're depicted everything from pilot training on the simulator to test stands and actual flight testing. After the war, they're apparently so shorthanded that Dr. Lang is even personally overseeing the menial labor.

Any body noticed that the S.D.F. one had fabrication facilities on board? How much of the cost would be negated?

Yeah, we're aware... the SDF-1 Macross having an onboard factory is something the RPG copied from the Macross OSM. In the original Macross, the factory was principally responsible for providing replacement parts and munitions to keep the mecha and fighters on the Macross, Daedalus, and Prometheus in the fight. It did, however, also construct at least sixty-one additional destroid units during the First Space War. Most of them were built from spare parts (1 Monster, 40 Defenders), but the Phalanx Destroid was actually developed there early in the return flight and more than twenty were built by the factory (made easier by the shared Series 04 drivetrain). In the Macross II continuity, the factory developed (under the leadership of Dr. H. Takachihofu and a number of engineers from the various developers and manufacturers of the mecha) a number of new designs including the VE-1 ELINT Seeker. One of the non-canon game series also had the factory develop and original VF during the return flight... the VF-X3 Medusa.

As far as negation of cost... the soldiers working the factory still need to be paid, as do any civilian laborers, so the cost probably hasn't come down very far (if at all).

Any body noticed that the S.D.F. one had fabrication facilities on board? How much of the cost would be negated?

Hehe, well in that case we've moved from capitalism to fascism. While in space, those facilities are run by the RDF, using whatever resources they can scrounge. But the soldiers working the machines are paid in credits that are worth exactly whatever their rations are issued are valued at to someone else. This is entirely a closed system with everything being worth whatever Gloval's administration says it is. Once they get back to earth, we go back to where were started.

Well, only as long as Earth lasts... once the planet is destroyed by the Zentradi, they're right back to space fascism. The new tech was all developed by "military scientists" like Dr. Lang, and built in factory satellites that are owned and operated by the military.

[The Artist Formerly]

Any body noticed that the S.D.F. one had fabrication facilities on board? How much of the cost would be negated?

Hehe, well in that case we've moved from capitalism to fascism. While in space, those facilities are run by the RDF, using whatever resources they can scrounge. But the soldiers working the machines are paid in credits that are worth exactly whatever their rations are issued are valued at to someone else. This is entirely a closed system with everything being worth whatever Gloval's administration says it is. Once they get back to earth, we go back to where were started.

Well, only as long as Earth lasts... once the planet is destroyed by the Zentradi, they're right back to space fascism. The new tech was all developed by "military scientists" like Dr. Lang, and built in factory satellites that are owned and operated by the military.

Yeah sort of, but by that point we've moved pretty far afield from a how much does this cost. Plus while we do have some of that, "Earth" is a much bigger system. You're right it is closed, but access to both labor and resources radically changes. Depending on what Drew or others might be building for a game, this could be approached from a how much per fighter for a non-RDF aligned group to buy or build, like something out of New World Order.